Are ‘Obamacans’ real or a mirage?

We probably all have some personal anecdotes about conservative friends or family members who don’t usually like Democratic candidates, but they kind of like that Obama guy. The “trend,” if there is such a thing, first became apparent to me last summer, when Mark McKinnon, the former chief media adviser to George W. Bush, and now a top aide to John McCain’s presidential campaign, admitted that he liked Obama so much, he wouldn’t create negative ads against him if the Illinois senator became the Democratic nominee.

It led Newsweek to do an item the other day about “prominent Republicans” who have “caught Obama fever.” The candidate calls them “Obamacans.”

Susan Eisenhower is more than just another disappointed Republican. She is also Ike’s granddaughter and a dedicated member of the party who has urged her fellow Republicans in the past to stick with the GOP. But now Eisenhower, who runs an international consulting firm, is endorsing Barack Obama. She has no plans to officially leave the Republican party. But in Eisenhower’s view, Obama is the only candidate who can build a national consensus on the issues most important to her–energy, global warming, an aging population and America’s standing in the world.

“Barack Obama will really be in a singular position to attract moderate Republicans,” she told Newsweek. “I wanted to do what many people did for my grandfather in 1952. He was hugely aided in his quest for the presidency by Democrats for Eisenhower. There’s a long and fine tradition of crossover voters.”

Eisenhower is one of a small but symbolically powerful group of what Obama recently called “Obamacans” — disaffected Republicans who have drifted away from their party just as Eisenhower Democrats did and, more recently, Reagan Democrats in the 1980s. They include lifelong Republican Tricia Moseley, a former staffer for the late Sen. Strom Thurmond, the one-time segregationist from South Carolina. Now a high-school teacher, Moseley says she was attracted to Obama’s positions on education and the economy.

I’m also reminded of an Obama endorsement from Jeffrey Hart, a speechwriter for Nixon and Reagan, probably best known for his work as a writer for the conservative National Review, who also announced his support for Obama the other day.

Is this indicative of a progressive Dem with cross-over appeal, or is this just a mirage that would disappear once the general election begins in earnest?

Peter Wehner, a former deputy assistant to George W. Bush, tackled the subject today in a WaPo op-ed.

Barack Obama is not only popular among Democrats, he’s also an appealing figure to many Republicans. Former GOP House member Joe Scarborough, now a host on MSNBC, reports that after every important Obama speech, he is inundated with e-mails praising the speech — with most of them coming from Republicans. William Bennett, an influential conservative intellectual, has said favorable things about Obama. So have Rich Lowry of National Review and Peggy Noonan. And so have I.

A number of prominent Republicans I know, who would wage a pitched battle against Hillary Clinton, like Obama and would find it hard to generate much enthusiasm in opposing him.

Wehner argues, relatively persuasively, that the right feels comfortable gravitating towards Obama, at least for now, for three main reasons: 1) Obama is a charming, inspirational figure with an “unsurpassed ability to (seemingly) transcend politics”; 2) Republicans hate the Clintons; and 3) Obama’s message emphasizes “unity and hope rather than division and resentment,” rather than the “politics of rage.”

It all sounds quite nice until Wehner argues that Obama may not be able to actually get these conservative votes come November because, “on almost every issue, [Obama is] a conventional liberal.” Wehner argues that Obama would have even broader appeal if he demonstrated some “independence from liberal orthodoxy” by embracing a right-wing policy idea or two, such privatization of public schools through vouchers.

Now, Wehner is a conservative Republican, so it stands to reason he’d encourage liberal Democrats to be more like him. It’s not going to work, of course, but this at least makes sense. That said, I think Wehner is missing the point — the conservatives who’ve already moved towards Obama know about his positions on the issues, and don’t seem to care. (It seems irrational, but a lot of voters don’t consider issues when making candidate judgments.)

The question is straightforward enough: can Obama maintain liberal positions on issues and continue to garner support from disaffected Republicans, dejected after eight years of Bush failure? Even after the right-wing smear machine cranks up? I don’t know, but I thought I’d open it up to a little discussion.

I’d just add one thing, though. I’ve heard some Obama detractors on the left argue, “See? He’s drawing support from the right? Therefore, he must be bad and Dems shouldn’t nominate him.”

As arguments go, I think this one’s a little silly. In 1980, Reagan was drawing all kinds of support from Dems (you’ve probably heard about “Reagan Democrats” once or twice). At no point did the Republican Party say, “Wait, if Dems like Reagan, we ought to reject him.” Indeed, they argued the opposite — they wanted a conservative candidate with broad appeal who could frame issues in a way that appealed to members of the other party.

Maybe Obama can do the same thing, maybe not, but I have a hard time buying the notion that Obama should be rejected necessarily because of his apparent cross-over appeal.

What truly liberal positions does Obama take? Obamacans listen to his dogwhistles and believe he means what he says. Obamacrats listen to his dogwhistles and argue he really means something else and that all will be clear later, just vote for Obama.

  • You’re right, Carol. Let’s continue to make governance all about getting even with each other. That’s worked out so well.

  • There are a lot of Republicans who aren’t really Republicans in any ideological sense. They just have this amorphous sense that they somehow relate more to the GOP and identify with it. These are people who don’t think of themselves as liberal and they didn’t relate to the cultural left of the 60s and 70s. Although they are not ideologically conservative, they are in other senses traditional. Back in the early 80s such folks were Democrats and became Reagan Democrats. Today these people are registered Republican. Obama could indeed bring those voters back to the Democratic party.

  • Obama would have even broader appeal if he demonstrated some “independence from liberal orthodoxy” by embracing a right-wing policy idea or two

    Don’t listen to that, Obama. That’s the devil talking. And you know we have to “keep the devil down in the hole.”

    Obama needs to charm the Obama-cans (like a snake-charmer) long enough to get them to vote for them. After that? Fuck’em. They’ll just try to hollow out his rhetoric with compromise.

  • I think when Dick Cheney went on stage and almost gleefully
    (gleefully for him)
    said that he was indeed related to Barack…
    I sensed pride in his words.
    I think that was the moment…
    When I realized…
    This kid’s crossover appeal is really there:
    People like him.
    His smile makes you feel good deep down inside.
    And there is an inherent sense of honesty to him…
    Combine those…
    Into one quality that you should never underestimate:
    The power of likability to get things done.
    In business or politics…
    Or… global warming negotiations.
    Truly:
    There is a overwhelming sense here…
    That even if you don’t like his politics…
    People can work with this guy…
    To get things done.

  • I would bet that William Bennett, Joe Scarborough, and some of these other extreme partisan pundits are just looking to look a little more moderate, so that they can remain employed a year from now. It’s kind of like David Brooks trying to seem more moderate in order to spew right wing talking points on PBS’ Lehrer Hour. So forget about these phonies. Later on they will “reluctantly” insist that after much “reflection”, they can’t support Obama.

    Reagan Democrats and, I hope, Obamacan’s are a different story. These are non-political people who want change, who are either agnostic or largely unopinionated about how to solve problems like Iraq, health care costs, and other issues. They are what John Dean in his book “Conservatives without Conscience” calls authoritarian personalities. They want a leader they can follow, not someone who claims to agree with them on every issue.

    In the 80’s my recollection is that it was these people who dragged reluctant politicians to the other side, not the other way around.

  • Who can take tomorrow,
    Dip it in a dream?
    Separate the sorrow and collect up all the cream,
    The Obama man can!
    The Obama man can because he mixes it with love
    and makes the world taste good.

    Who can take a sunrise
    Sprinkle it in dew
    Cover it in chocolate
    and a miracle or two?
    The Obama man can!
    The Obama man can because he mixes it with love
    and makes the world taste good.

  • Callimaco is right. I have (extended) family members and spouses of frineds who are nominal Republicans because they associate the Dems with some policies from the past they didn’t like but liek Obama and are open to voting for him. One is a tech exec who doesn’t like the Dems bashing business.

    One problem is that these kinds of people also like McCain. But he is going to be 72 on election day and he is so war happy and capable of being tied to Bush that I think they will come over.

  • In 1980, Reagan was drawing all kinds of support from Dems (you’ve probably heard about “Reagan Democrats” once or twice). At no point did the Republican Party say, “Wait, if Dems like Reagan, we ought to reject him.” Indeed, they argued the opposite — they wanted a conservative candidate with broad appeal who could frame issues in a way that appealed to members of the other party.

    While this seems similar, and it might make some Dems feel like they’ve finally found their “Ronald Reagan” figure, there is a difference.

    Reagan wasn’t pulling in support from “the left” in the way that people talk about Obama getting support from “the right”. Reagan was pulling over conservative Dems. Ideologically they already agreed with Reagan on at least some issues. It was just a matter of getting them over their “brand loyalty” to get them over the hump to vote for a Republican.

    If I saw the same thing going on around Obama I’d be much more heavily encouraged than I am now. What I see now are conservatives who keep saying “we hate Hillary but we sure do like that Obama guy” and I keep wondering “what’s the punch line”?

    Now, it may be simple Republican love of a good cult of personality and a lack of such a cult on their side this election (I’m actually leaning towards that explanation, myself). Obama also has an ability to talk at great length with an amazing rhetorical ability and not really commit to anything. So if you’re a conservative listening to his speeches you might get just as pumped up by the words as a liberal because you’re reading as much into what he’s saying as the liberal is. Plus Obama is making some vague motions like there won’t be an “retributions” for the bad actors of the last 8 years, so if you’re resigned to having a Dem in office anyway better the one that you think has “promised” to let your political party get back on its feet again than the one who might push the advantage to make you hurt (although I think this is silly on their party – Clinton isn’t going to be pressing the advantage either – the candidates who might have been able to do it either were non-starters to begin with or have now dropped out).

    It may be something honest, but if there’s one thing I’ve learned over the last few decades it’s to never trust a Republican pol when he’s handing out candidate advice.

  • The right-wing smears are going to be nasty. If he wins the nomination, Obama will likely be swept up in his own Swift-boat scandals, above and beyond what we’ve heard about him supposedly as a Muslim, not pledging allegiance, etc. One can hardly predict or prepare for these attacks precisely because they are entirely made up!

    Based on Obama’s own record, however, I suspect nasty R’s will hit him on crime/drug issues, especially given his own “youthful indiscretions” and previous support for decriminalization of marijuana. Some Obamacans might defend Obama in revulsion of Republican dirty tactics, but for others it may sow doubts about the candidate and they might rethink their support.

    The bottom line: It’s a long, long way until November.

  • I have to say that my father, who is a diehard Republican and voted for W two F’ing times, actually said he liked Obama. I almost fell back and hit my head when he said that….so maybe there IS something to it. I don’t think he would ever actually vote for someone that doesn’t have an R next to their name. That being said he hates George Bush. I also had a family member tell me at Christmas…on the down low of course…that he was so fed up with the Republican party that he was changing his affiliation to D. I also found myself in a few less arguments than normal….Oh my how times are changing.

  • How about naming a position where Obama’s and the general liberal one DIFFER significantly? A cap and trade carbon tax plan, major Iraq drawdowns, ethics reform in Washington, universal access to health care (yeah yeah mandates and all, but compare the difference between Clinton and Obama’s plans to the difference between Obama and McCain’s plans, and tell me which gap is way bigger), stood up for gay rights during a trip to a black church, for immigration reform and driver’s licenses in the meantime…seriously, where is the non-liberalness here?

  • Obama is the only candidate who can build a national consensus on the issues most important to her–energy, global warming, an aging population and America’s standing in the world.

    I do calling nationwide for conservation organizations – a few of which are officially nonpartisan and do have members who are Republicans – and I am having lots of conversations of late with donors who identify themselves as “a lifelong Republican” and they are interested in Obama and what he is saying. I have to be careful to respond as me, an individual, and not that I am representing the views of the organization when I respond, and I find that they – like me – have a long-term desire to have a President who inspires us to try and be better than we are, and that it has been a very long time since that happened (in my own case, not since JFK). Many of these people say they voted for Bush in 2000, were dismayed by what he morphed into once elected, and didn’t vote for him in 2004. They are willing to vote for Obama, but not for Hillary. They won’t vote Republican in that case, just not vote.

    I have several Republican friends (I know, it sounds shocking, but it’s true), all of whom are what I would term “real Conservatives,” as opposed to the usual right wing morons. I respect them, they respect me, we don’t go trying to convert each other. And each of them, individually, without me saying something to bring up the subject, have in recent weeks said they like what they hear from Obama and that they would consider voting for him in November.

    Folks like our comrade Zeitgeist – who think that the size of the “big tent” should only be big enough for those who can document their long-term opposition to Republicans – need to re-think their attitudes. Yes, those of us who put our necks on the line these past 8 years can look at these others as “Johnny-come-latelys,” but the “winning margin” is important. Once you move from particfipation in the resistance to national liberation, you have to become welcoming. Like Winston Churchill said when Hitler invaded the USSR – Britain would ally with the USSR against Hitler. When it was pointed out that Churchill had spent the previous 23 years taking every opportunity to try and kill Stalin, he said yes, and went on to say “If Hitler invaded Hell, I should at least have a good word for the Devil.” Right now, the only requirement for membership in the Anti-American Right Movement is opposition to the American Right, any reason for that is a good reason.

    I also notice who has been increasing his support around the country and who has hit her ceiling, and lost support. That is the “whiff of victory” all the crew of the good ship SS Billary are telling us about???

  • Just a little piece of the picture: Two friends of mine who are life-long republicans came to me asking if I knew of any “Republicans for Obama” groups in the San Francisco area. When I went to Obama’s website to buy them some “Republicans for Obama” lapel pins, I found they were back-ordered.

  • Many (but not all) Reagan Democrats voted Republican because of the appeal of Reagan and other Republicans to the racial biases of white voters. The Democrats won’t get those voters back in their lifetimes.

    On the other hand, my 87-year-old mother has voted Democratic all her life (except for Eisenhower) but will never vote for Obama.

    That said, there are a lot of Republican voters who are there for no particular reason. Maybe it’s the cumulative result of effective Republican propaganda, or maybe they got mad at the dirty hippies during the Vietnam era. The Democrats can, and should, win them over. The right Democrat can do it.

    I don’t think that Hillary is that Democrat.

  • It’s true that a large percentage of Americans are sick about where their country is today, both at home and abroad. And an Obama speech or twenty that focuses on most people’s desire to get along with everyone can resonate because he is never particularly specific on policy or programs. When he is specific, and when you look at who is advising him – especially on matters of economics, and trade and privatization – I think you have to consider that the reason a segment of “disaffected” Republicans are moving to Obama may be not because they were never solid Republicans, but because they hear something in what he is saying, and are encouraged by the past policy positions of his advisors, that sounds like, and makes them believe that, he is more like the GOP they used to believe in.

    And look what’s on the other side – McCain, Romney and Huckabee: one’s for war without end, one has no idea what he believes and one wants to take the nation back for Christ.

    There just is no freakin’ way that Republicans are drawn to Obama because they have been converted to the progressive, liberal ideas that are the bedrock of the Democratic party. And as someone who is committed to those ideas, I have no confidence that Obama will be an effective and committed advocate for things I want a Democratic president to be working for. Things we have been waiting way too long for.

    And if the argument is that Obama really is that progressive and liberal advocate, why is he working so hard to convince people that he isn’t, really, “that” kind of Democrat?

    What I can’t figure out is, who is this guy? Is he going to turn his back on the Republicans and independents who vote for him, much the way Bush turned away from his “compassionate conservatism” once he took the oath of office? Or is he going to try to always be in the middle, always selling out from both sides in the interest of comity? Does this remind anyone but me of DLC centrism? Do people only hate that when they can attach a Clinton to it, or what?

    Republicans are not going to vote for Obama because they think he is a progressive liberal – they are voting for him because they think he is not. It’s kind of a pickle, isn’t it? If you defend Obama on the basis that he is that progressive Democrat, I think you scare off the Republicans; if you don’t, you confirm for the base of the party that they have reason to worry.

  • It’s entertaining to see even otherwise intelligent people in the comments here struggle with the “all Republicans are evil, some republicans like Obama, and that means Obama is…” syllogism.

    There are crossover voters in every election. I guarantee you that even if Hilary gets the nomination, there will be some Republicans who vote for her. Not many, as a percentage, but still plenty of individual voters. So the question isn’t whether Obama will see crossover votes, but rather how *many* he’ll see.

    I personally think that Obama could encourage and foster a Republican crossover movement by emphasizing two things: opposition to the war, and the incredibly financial mismanagement that Republicans have engaged in. Then again, Hilary could probably create a (smaller) crossover movement if she wanted to, but she’s so hyper-partisan that it’s hard to imagine her *wanting* a vote from an evil Republican.

  • The conservative Dallas Morning News, which hasn’t endorsed a Dem president in over 70 years endorsed Obama over Clinton. Like the Red State Boys video where one is swooning over Obama but when asked if he will vote her him the answer is “hell no, I just like it that he beat her”, the DMN is not going to support Obama. And I agree, once the right rips hims to shreds with the now adoring media help, he will be just as “derisive” as she is now. The bottom line for me is which one can handle the title Commander in Chief and she seems to be the stronger in that regard.

  • Anne at 16: “Is he going to turn his back on the Republicans and independents who vote for him, much the way Bush turned away from his “compassionate conservatism” once he took the oath of office?”

    My guess is that he will say, “You heard the voters. They want health care fixed. They want a more conciliatory foreign policy. They want a system that gives opportunity to all, and not just those born wealthy. Get with the program or hear me blast you every single day of my term.” Yes, there will be compromise, and Anne will be offended. But this is a democracy, and the rules in a democracy benefit those who don’t want change (cloture votes, etc.). But movements start with single steps.

  • I personally know three lifelong Republicans who’re voting for Obama. Unless you’re a die-hard Clintonite, it’s pretty damn hard not to like/be inspired by/etc. Obama. The fact that this newbie is about to do what the GOP spent a decade failing at – beating the Clintons – is a pretty good testament to his singularity. This is history in the making, people!

    Fired up!

  • Another thing. I don’t know about you, but is anyone else as f-ing exhausted as I am from hating the Right? I’m not saying give in. Not in the least. We are on the cusp of a period ascendant liberalism and need to seize the moment. An Obama candidacy is the best way to do that. He offers everyone a much-needed break from the last 20 years of “the partisan food fight,” as he accurately describes it. He makes us all proud to be Americans again. For a cynic like me to say something that corny is really saying something.

  • “…(It seems irrational, but a lot of voters don’t consider issues when making candidate judgments.)…” Does it ever. Geez, comments like “you could land a 747 on his chest” makes the case.

    “…I’d just add one thing, though. I’ve heard some Obama detractors on the left argue, “See? He’s drawing support from the right? Therefore, he must be bad and Dems shouldn’t nominate him.”…”
    Actually what people fear is not so simple. We fear he will become less progressive in trying to appease the right and therefore accomplish very little as far as a progressive agenda is concerned. School vouchers is a good example. Surely Obama would never consider destroying our educational system for profiteering. Repubs only point to the money to be made in LA (especially Jeb Bush who is making a mint from the ed. supplies etc). Reagan attracted democratic conservatives who were barely any different than their republican counter parts and many such are still there today as the “beltway insiders”, part of the “money” party which is composed of both repubs and dems.

    “…But in Eisenhower’s view, Obama is the only candidate who can build a national consensus on the issues most important to her–energy, global warming, an aging population and America’s standing in the world….”

    Does this mean that she believes Obama will allow repubs to privatize and profiteer from these conditions or does this mean she is willing to become more progressive due to Obama’s character. Because there is really very little difference between Clinton and Obama on these issues. Dems that crossed over to Reagan were willing to become more conservative…are these Obamacans willing to become more liberal and progressive
    or are they under the impression (and I don’t know how they could have gotten this idea) that Obama will become more conservative in his promise to unite the country? We’ve all seen how compromising the right has been the last 8yrs, especially in the senate where republican obstructionism rules and the dems have given Bush and the republicans every single thing they have asked for…Everything. The main fear so far has been “when will the dems grow a spine and stand up to Bush and these obstructionist republicans?” Dems have bent way over to compromise on all the main issues yet this is not seen as uniting the country but merely as cowardice and spinelessness. I too, love Obama’s rhetoric but I keep hitting a wall when I ask myself how he expects to do that and I can see Eisenhower doesn’t have an answer to that question either.

  • bjobotts: “Does this mean that she believes Obama will allow repubs to privatize and profiteer from these conditions or does this mean she is willing to become more progressive due to Obama’s character.”

    Did you even read her endorsement? She certainly can’t claim to speak for every Obama-supporting Republican, but she directly addressed that question. It’d disingenuous to insinuate that she has evil ulterior motives just because she’s traditionally found the overall Republican platform to be more appealing.

    “We fear he will become less progressive in trying to appease the right and therefore accomplish very little as far as a progressive agenda is concerned.”

    Oh, come on. Are you really saying that you think he would be more effective as a progressive if he had less support from Republicans? If you think the guy is insincere and is just saying what it takes to get elected, that’s fine. But, to the extent that he is principled, why in the world would he change those principles to appeal to crossover voters who have already crossed over? Do you really only vote based on what will upset the most Republicans, and does apparent Republican acceptance of Obama make him a less appealing candidate just because they’re not angry? Isn’t this the kind of down-is-up reasoning that we all deride when it comes from the right?

    Gah, I hate it when people demonstrate that the right doesn’t have a monopoly on knee-jerk partisanship. I know it’s true, I just hate to see it.

  • John at #21 has something: being exhausted by hating the Right. I admit it, I hate them, I celebrate anything bad that happens to them, from an ingrown toenail to a fatal heart attack, to being killed in a mugging. Nothing too bad can happen to them. But I agree that what I like about Obama is getting a shot at not spending the next four years in a defensive crouch ready to kick hell out of some goddamned ignorant fascist. Maybe we’ll have to – certainly we all know how to – but maybe we won’t have to. To me, that’s the real margin of difference between Obama and Clinton. Like Gene Debs said back nearly 100 years ago: “it’s better to vote for what you want, and not get it, than to vote for what you don’t want, and get it.”

  • Calling the last 20 years a food fight trivializes it. We’re like the fly in Kafka’s story. Just as we were trying to clean off the plop of ink of Vietnam, we get another drop of ink from Bush. It’s been a story about a descent toward fascism.

    I think in a sense Democrats have already won something in this campaign. With some exception and in a less that perfect way C & O have gone for win-win in lightening up on their debates. When’s the last time that happened? They have shown Democtratic values at work.

  • It is not merely about revenge or hating Republicans or relishing a fight. It is much more important than that. Obama has yet to convince me (and I’m not sure that he can) that one can both reach out and build bridges with Republicans and yet be willing to aggressively roll back the last 8-14 years.

    I think Obama has himself painted into a bit of a corner: if he campaigns as this “new way” figure of enlightenment, and then appoints truly progressive judges and presses truly progressive policies, and aggressively seeks to unearth and even prosecute what Bush has wrought, he will be seen as a dishonest disappointment, who campaigned on unity but lead in a way calculated to divide. If, on the other hand, he governs like he campaigns — unity, forgiveness, big tent — it requires giving the Republicans a clean slate, starting from scratch, which should disappoint any thinking progressive because it absolutely locks in the devestating Republicans gains of the past 7 years in the administration and the past 14 years regarding the courts (because they held up or forced compromise on most of Clinton’s judicial appointments).

    To simplify the analogy I have gone into at length before here, if there is a 1-10 scale where 1 is most conservative and 10 is most progressive, if BushCo has tilted the government to where it is a 2, and good government types believe it should be at a 5-6, the fastest way to get it there is for the next administration to be a 9. If Obama comes in and governs at 6, we’re going to be at 2, 3, 4 for ages. Obama may honestly hold beliefs to the left of Clinton (although I’m not at all sure that is true), but if she thinks 7 and governs 6, while he thinks 9 and governs 5 we’re still better off with Clinton.

    The country will continue to suffer if we start on Jan 20, 2009 with a clean slate. The Republicans have done too much damage. There simply has to be a rollback, even if it offends Republicans, even if it engenders partisan pushback. Most importantly as it pertains to the judiciary. Now is not the time to start honoring the other party’s role in the process of picking judges – we’re way too far behind as it stands. Now is not the time for nice. Nice can come once there is balance for Scalia, Thomas, and Alito. Nice can come once the DC and 4th circuits are balanced.

  • There may have been a day (way before my time) when many Republicans would vote for a Democrat they thought would be good for the country. But look, there was a day when most Democrats thought the only good Indian was a dead Indian, and another time when most Democrats thought that Blacks should go to separate schools…

    But I’d guess there are zero Democrats like that… Those days are just gone.

    And similarly, I doubt there are ANY Republicans, even among the most liberal, who would vote for a Democrat these days… Modern politics is just too partisan.

    It’s easy to exclaim the appeal of one Democrat contender over another during primary season… maybe they kinda like him, maybe they’d rather face him than Clinton… But, it’s quite another thing to actually vote for a Democrat vice their own McCain or Romney in the election.

  • Very good Tom Cleaver.
    But I’ve got a worse case of John’s exhaustion right now.
    Mine extends to the Clintons as well.
    Worse: It is not as if I have to fake a vow to not ever defend them.
    Rather: Vowing isn’t even necessary.
    My trust in them is forever gone.
    I can’t and won’t ever lift a finger in their defense.
    They screwed me.
    From playing nepotism and putting his wife in charge of “hillarycare” in 1993….
    To knowing that even when he was being seriously hunted by the loons,
    He was not able to keep it out of a 22 year old intern’s mouth in the Oval Office.
    Nope. No thanks. Not going there.
    I don’t need to learn lessons twice.
    The stakes are way to vital.
    I am dead to the Clintons.
    My tank for them is on “way past empty.”

    As far as I am concerned the right can have at ’em.
    I’ll spend my time laughing at those that elected them…
    And those that work the wires to attack them.
    I got no dog in that fight at all.
    I’m done.

    For me, it will be like watching that circle in Dante’s hell…
    The one where the damned ones tear each other to bits with their teeth in the boiling reeking muck. It will be like watching a superbowl…
    And not carrying who wins.
    Pass me another Steinlager!
    Go teams! Go!

  • ” I have no confidence that Obama will be an effective and committed advocate for things I want a Democratic president to be working for. Things we have been waiting way too long for.”

    Anne and Zeitigiest: And you have confidence is Hils? LOL!!!! Her husband basically became a Republican (call him a 4-5 on the scale) in his last four years… how the heck can you have confidence she wouldn’t do the same? Plus if Hils runs against Obama, you have a better chance of uttering the words “President McCain” for the next 4 years

    You certainly are an interesting study of the Democtatic establishment!!

  • “I celebrate anything bad that happens to them, from an ingrown toenail to a fatal heart attack”

    Tommy, time for those meds again! You frothing again.

  • btw…one important consideration here is the alternatives for republicans. Look at their candidates. Republicans who want change are seeing little difference between the present GOP candidates and the Bush administration. Few of them want what their candidates are selling so they are looking at which Dem candidate they can most tolerate. IT DOESN’T MATTER. if they vote repub, don’t vote at all, or vote democratic….No republican will win the WH this election. Turning this into a popularity contest of I like this one better than that one based solely on one’s personality will not last long past the election. Eventually it will come down to the issues and no matter how much politicians like a person they will still vote their interests.
    What voters are tired of is how this administration has pushed the idea that dissent equals traitor, that disagreeing with government policy meant you hate America and this is what the MSM has done to an unprecedented extent. It is the press which has profiteered from a divisive America they produced with the backing of this administration condemning all who disagreed. Are they now selecting our nominees for us by promising to bash and smear one and make saintly the other since they have to know that the next president will be a dem.

    Even though Tom Cleaver makes a good point, his analogy doesn’t go far enough. Churchill never said anything about doing nothing to hold Hitler accountable for his war crimes. Many of us hold Bush/Cheney and others accountable for the deaths of over a million people and for torture and mass destruction of a nation of people. These are not just “bad actors” they are criminals and for justice it seems we have to look outside of our nation for other countries of the world to hold them accountable since Dems are so quick to want to just “forget it” because it might interfere with “policy making”.
    Any of you who have actually read “the Shock Doctrine” by Naomi Klein know what has actually happened under this administration…and there ain’t no forgettin’.

    We are at that point where in order to recover from the harm already done we must rid our selves of the policies and policy makers who put us in this disastrous position. That’s how you get rid of the “mindset” that got us here.

    ***Anne***Thanks for posting. Good insight.

  • I will add my 2 family observations.
    I have a cousin in Dallas who is a very successful businessman. Solid Romney type Republican. Back in the summer (way before any hype or perceived nice Reagan statements) I asked him if there was any Democrat he would consider. He did not hesitate. Obama.

    My father has never voted for a Dem in his whole life. He hates Hillary (no surprise). He told me that if Obama knocks off the Clintons, then he will get a lot of respect from rank & file republicans for slaying the evil dragon, something his team has been unable to do. Not sure my pop will vote for him in the fall, but take it for what it’s worth.

  • While no person leads without accommodating the desires of their followers, some “leaders” adjust their positions as needed to make sure they have enough supporters to maintain their power, and are willing to compromise as necessary to get or keep a position.

    A real leader, however, stakes out a position and then convinces enough people to support it to make it happen. Some do it through fear, some do it through oratory or logic.

    You can like and support the second kind without agreeing with them at all points.

    In the GOP, what passes for leadership is stoking fear, and fear just doesn’t seem to have the power it used to.

    Hillary Clinton is far less able than Obama to exert the second kind of leadership.

  • Zeitgeist,
    I understand your concerns (and the judiciary is a very important issue for me). I have long stated that I am going to support whoever wins the Democratic nomination. But, in reading through your analysis, I question your “political scale” analogy. Although I think Hillary is a capable and even well-meaning politician, she comes with enormous negative baggage. She is a fighter and she is going to have to be because the negative baggage makes it easy for people to oppose her. She practically has her own built-in head wind. This may not be fair or a reflection of her abilities, but it seems true.

    It is possible that Obama may be able to accomplish as much as Hillary with less “fight.” It is possible that she could think “7 and govern 6” and not succeed at all in moving the country more toward the center of the scale. It is even possible that she may govern 6 and be perceived as governing “9,” and because people hold entrenched judgements about her.

    I acknowledge that the people I know are not a full reflection of the country at large. But many are what I call “pendulum riders” (I used to be one until Dubya and his friends gave me a sharp bump leftward). Beyond their vote, they do not see themselves as actors in the governing game. They are passively riding the pendulum. They have become aware since 2004 that the pendulum has arced much farther to the right than they like. They want to ride it back – at least to the center fo the arc. If Hillary runs against McCain, I suspect they will vote for McCain. If she wins anyway, I suspect they will distrust her, and be inclined to believe the lies that inevitably will be told about her. Or they will be inclined to believe the worst about the mistakes she will make. This is the head wind to which I referred. I think Obama will not have this head wind. Strident voices against him on the right will sound strident in the ears of the pendulum riders and, therefore, be less effective.

    This is not to say that there is not considerable risk with the Obama message. If hope gives way to pragmatism too quickly – well, hell hath no fury like an idealist scorned. If he is a progressive who is in fact tugging on the long arc of the moral universe to bend it toward justice, then he will have to be deft as he rubs the belly of the right wing beast with one hand while taking away its bread and butter with the other. I have yet to be convinced he can pull this off. I am not sure an Obamacan is any more real than Sasquatch.

  • ***JRS jr.***..”…Plus if Hils runs against Obama, you have a better chance of uttering the words “President McCain” for the next 4 years”

    Never happen no matter who we nominate. He’s still a republican carrying on the Bush policy. Stop making people paranoid. I don’t think Anne is talking Hillary over Obama as much as she is saying no matter who gets the nomination these are the things we want them to be working for. Obama is just fine with me as long as he standing for the progressive agenda most dems say they want, I just have a hard time getting him to actually say it, how he expects to get conservatives to come over to a more progressive agenda without compromising on that progressive agenda. I too want to understand why he has such conservative economic advisers and how he plans to prevent the profiteers to stay out of our healthcare, how he plans to keep them from privatizing everything and still unite them with our progressive agenda.

    Also I look at Hillary alone…not as Bill and Hillary or the Clintons. Just Hillary and what she stands for or does etc.. I’m very concerned about getting both candidates to listen to us, to find out if they are willing to change their stands on the issues based on feedback from their own party. I really am tired of when candidates talk in generalities as they have done since the beginning of campaigns. “Our great country,,,united from sea to sea…overcome all that stand in the way of our greatness”…etc. I mean yeah we all think that way…but right now I want some particulars not an admiration of rhetorical skills. I don’t want this to all be about identities and personalities and asking for explanations is not attacking someone. Trying to figure out what a person stands for does not mean disapproval or hatred.

  • I think one of the reasons the right hated Bill Clinton so much is that he was likeable, and inspired people, and was a consensus candidate. In other words, they feared him, and were terrified at the prospect of a Democrat whom the country could rally around. Thus, they had to tar him with everything they had because if the country ever focused on issues, they were doomed. Also, conservatives like to say they like Obama because it makes them feel like they aren’t the lemmings they actually are. It’s a way to lay the ground work for a lot of, “If you were smart” talk.

    Having said that, though, Dems way undervalue charisma and likeability. If you look at the successful Democratic Presidents who were elected, they were all charismatic and likeable. Frank Rich actually did a good job of discussing the “risk” of a Kennedy Presidency (without his typical Clinton hatred).

    Obama detractors like to complain that Obama allows people to project what they want to see in him, as if that was a bad thing. As far as I’m concerned, that’s his major selling point. It’s why likeability works so well — if you like him, you assume the best in the face of any evidence to the contrary. DC liked George Bush.

    The typical problem the Dems have had was illustrated by wonks like Steve Clemmons, who also failed to see the utility of something like Cheney shooting an elderly man in the face, then making the victim take the blame for it, as a salient metaphor for everything wrong about his Presidency. The effette elitism of liberals is what resonates.

    What we forget is that policy is acedamia, but politics is poetry. You want everyone to have their own interpretation of your lyrics.

    (Can we have another Bush/Cheney like Presidency, where Obama is the figurehead, and Hillary has all the real power behind the scenes?)

  • Using Zeitgeist’s scale, Hillary’s record is that she triangulates. She (like the DLC) looks for the # that falls in between her audiences and sells that. If Republicans are a 1, and mainstream democrats (including her own real position) are a 7, she’ll try to occupy and sell a 4 from the outset. This worked fairly well for Bill, and allowed him to steal a bunch of Republican issues, but it did mean that progressives had to hunt a bit for their spoils of victory (appointments and executive orders, rather than cutting welfare and some of the initial NAFTA pains). Also, I think she will just inspire Republican obstructionism, unjust though their haterd is, so we won’t even see the 4’s..

    Obama also triangulates, but with a significant difference. He has a record of telling people what they don’t want to hear, and of winning people to his position, finding ways of making critical parts of his position attractive to others. He’s a politician, so he’s going to compromise, but I see him pulling people toward a 6, finding reasons to build a consensus there, rather than selling a 4.

    Also, I think it is worth drawing a distinction between Republican voters and Republican politicians. The politicians are hardline, but many of the voters are not so much. They bought into the party line because of concerns over abortion, guns, not being soft on crime, fears about terrorism, and the like, but many of them (the voters, not the politicians) remain very reachable over education, social programs, health care, compassion for the poor, and the like.

  • The Reagan Democrat analogy is a good one. My home city was such a stronghold of Democrats that we actually have a freeway named after a near-Communist union leader. Reagan won people over. Some of them were fairly conservative to begin with, but i put no stock in the idea that you can divide this country up into Democrats and Republicans and hope for accuracy. My boss seems for all the world to be a Limbaugh Republican, but he’s opened up to me and revealed that he’s actually more of a libertarian who believes that income tax should be progressive and that the estate tax should approach 100%. He votes Republican because he feels somewhat closer to them. But we don’t go around introducing people to our nuanced political philosophy; we say Dem or Rep, liberal or conservative.

    The majority of America resides in the middle. When Reagan came along, things were bad. Everybody knew that things were bad. And there was a Democrat in the White House who actually told America that things were bad. Reagan said, “Things will be ok.” For the guy worried about his job, fighting with his wife, and trying to figure out how he might pay for his kid’s college education that was enough. Most people don’t like change, so the Reagan Democrats stayed and they became Republicans.

    Times are bad today, and everybody outside of D.C. knows it full well. Red, blue, purple, we all know that the nation has lost its bearing. People are mostly non-thinking. They want to hear that it will be ok, that it is, in fact, morning in America. I do think that Obama will actually get some Republicans to vote for him because we all want to be inspired and we all want to feel that it will be ok. And there’s the wonder of the secret ballot to be considered. Your Republican friends don’t have to know that you voted for Obama in that magical moment of taking your country’s destiny in your hands…unless he turns out as good as advertised.

    And i know and am friends with a good many conservatives; many of them do like Obama.

  • I see the key prize that conservatives won’t be enthusiastically against him.
    This means the moderates won’t be inundated with slander which Kerry was and they’ll think Obama is MUCH MUCH better than Kerry (only one MUCH is needed).

    Obama won’t need a single conservative if he sweeps the moderates.

  • For my money, it is hard to say that there is a consistent Democratic identity over the last 20 years, and the same is true of Republicans. There are plenty of liberal Democrats who hated what Clinton did, and there are moderate Republicans who regard Bush with horror. Personally, I’d say the right candidate is the one who wins over moderates from both sides of the divide, and does something to make the country work better, rather than going for ideological civil war. You can say it’s unfair, but I just think Hillary has too much baggage to do that. I’d also say that her record of actual achievement looks much thinner than she claims. I don’t have much faith that she would be able to get her plans through, whereas I think Obama might. Either way, I’d suggest that we stop the ideological purity debate, and focus on getting a solid Democrat into office, rather than fighting a civil war and letting in McCain.

  • Like it or not…
    (and many of you have said “not”)
    This is going to be a prime time issue:
    NYTimes: Fewer want Bill Clinton back in the White House

    I warned about this ages ago:
    Bill is an asset in the primaries, but a liability in the General.
    He might help Hillary win now, only to lose later.
    If so… the democrats deserve their fate.
    And honestly? I will cheer on their loss.

    Here’s why:

    Remember Gore’s campaign debating for months whether Bill Clinton was a net asset or debit to the campaign?
    They couldn’t decide.
    But why did they even have to decide?
    Do I need to wrap the answer in a red dress for you? Probably not.
    Truly:
    If Bill had kept his pants zipped Gore would have been president.
    There would be no Bushit.
    This country would be in an entirely different place.

    Let’s do some accounting:
    The Clintons’ lost a 40 year Democratic majority in Congress in 1994.
    The Clintons’ lost an overwhelming Gore victory in 2000.
    And now the Clintons are back on the scene…

    This family is a nightmare.
    A fugging, frigging, fricking nightmare….

    They are so bad that if you were prone to conspiracies,
    you’d almost think they were a Republican plant to ruin the Democratic party.

  • I see your point about Reagan, but it’s a bad analogy. The Dems of 1980 were not a party that had engaged in a 15 year scorched-earth policy against the GOP. I think that’s what makes some Dems (including, occasionally, me, and I just gave some money to Obama) nervous; the concern is he may just not understand that the GOP isn’t interested in cooperation and likes him better because they think he won’t oppose him as effectively.

  • Sue @ 38…

    Josh Marshall shows his true colors with this pushback:

    http://talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/176818.php

    Apparently Ar-Node’s wife Maria Shriver just showed up at an Obama event with Oprah and added her support to his campaign. I’m not sure that’s surprising in itself. It’s sort of a Kennedy fad at the moment. And I don’t think there’s ever been any sense she changed her politics just because her husband’s a Republican.

    See?
    It is just a Kennedy fad.
    And Barack winning in South Carolina?
    Just a black people fad…

    Same difference.
    Josh Marshall can no longer pretend to be indifferent.

  • There’s nothing like a right-wing rag to have a conservative smear on the cover and tripe in their editorial about agist being worse than sexist or racist.

  • ROTFLMLiberalAO –

    Doesn’t matter what Josh Marshall thinks. There will always be votes that Obama will NEVER get, just as there are people who won’t ever vote for Hillary.

    The fact is that Maria Shriver is a tremendously popular First Lady of CA, and wife of a tremendously popular governor. MANY Californians WILL be swayed by her endorsement.

  • bjobotts (#22) said: We fear he will become less progressive in trying to appease the right and therefore accomplish very little as far as a progressive agenda is concerned.

    And this differs how from the presidency of Bill Clinton?????

  • bjobotts (#31): where has Obama said not to hold the criminals responsible for their crimes? The point is that not every Republican is a winger stormtrooper in the SS. Those who are, are obviously the enemy, but better to find the actual target than to fire indiscriminately.

    We’re not Them. If we become Them, then what do we win? The Good Guys always have to ask this question.

  • A lot of people vote on personality or star power. Obama has loads of that. Issues for those who don’t generally follow politics aren’t important, unless a negative ad/smear campaign causes a perception about someone — as with the smear campaign saying Gore was a liar. Which just goes to show that truth is not really what is important here.

  • Killing the meme released by memekiller.

    Did you not the read my post?
    Did you read the whole article, or just the parts that are favorable to your bias?

    My post:
    Bill is an asset in the primaries, but a liability in the General.
    He might help Hillary win now, only to lose later.

    The article:
    The poll found that independent voters have become more uncomfortable with the idea. In October, just 35 percent of independents disliked the idea; now, 45 percent dislike it.
    Democrats seem to be generally comfortable with bringing Mr. Clinton back. In October, only 10 percent disliked the idea of him back in the White House, and even after his bad week only 12 percent object now. In October 68 percent of Democrats said they actually liked the idea and that number has not changed. So he may still be an asset to his wife, at least in the upcoming Democratic primaries.
    In a general election, however, the prospect of Mr. Clinton back in the White House would be a bigger burden for her to carry. Republicans never liked the idea. In October, 66 percent said they disliked it; now 80 percent dislike it.

    I am willing to take a slapdown when I am wrong.
    But not when I so clearly follow the thrust of facts in an article.

    More. Smarter. Memes. To. Kill. Please.

  • A debate about where the country was under Clinton, and where the Republicans took us, is one I’m salivating to have. The original meme I set out to kill was the one that Bill Clinton was the bane of all evil because Republicans devoted an entire branch of government to investigating him full time. The second meme I set out to destroy was that Bush was the second coming of Jesus Christ, and a strong, courageous leader who rose to the occasion when our country needed him.

    I’m sure the Republican faithful want to bring back the Clinton hatred of yesteryear, but I can think of nothing that would do a better job of demonstrating the upside down world of DC than to have the establishment that was silent and looked away from all of Bush’s sins as he drove the country into the ground, suddenly get a case of the vapors rehashing the great Travel Office scandal that wasn’t.

    Clinton ruled during a time of surpluses, peace and prosperity, with only one member of his adminstration ever having any legal action succeed against him despite years of investigations, and left office with 60-70% approval. Bush brought us war, deficits, and corruption, with dozens of his loyalists being investigated, sent to jail, or havint secured their place in history as the most incompentent, immoral bunch to ever set foot in the White House, and will leave office with a disapproval of 60-70%.

    Yes, I do want to debate the horrors of returning to the country we had before Bush entered office, very, very much.

  • You can’t step in the same river twice, grasshopper. The situation is Much worse and different than in 92 and Clinton can’t inspire, only enflame.

  • I had CSPAN on today and happened to catch an Obama rally at UCLA. Obama himself was campaigning elsewhere. So the speakers included Caroline Kennedy, Oprah, and Michelle Obama (who brought out Stevie Wonder, who didn’t hurt himself falling off the steps thank goodness, and spoke – and sang – briefly). Mrs. Obama gave a terrific speech. Lastly, as Sue mentioned above, Maria Shriver came out and gave her endorsement for Obama. Shriver got a rock star reception from the crowd.

    Back to Michelle Obama. I hadn’t heard her speak before and was she ever a great advocate for electing her husband. A couple of things she brought up that could sway disaffected Rs and moderates:

    We (the people that is) have far more in common than differences: job security, health care, concern about our kids, etc., etc.
    She also talked about hers and Barack’s middle class upbringings, which will resonate with a lot of people.
    She talked about how Barack could have gone to Wall Street after law school and made a fortune, but instead he used his gifts to help others.

    There were a lot of other good things in her speech. CSPAN will probably rebroadcast if you want to try to see it, or check to see if it’s on the website.

    One more thing. Mrs. Obama addressed Barack’s ability to fight the opposition in the general election: Obama came up in the politics of Chicago. He knows how to fight tooth and nail against the R attack machine.

    We’ll see.

  • Michael–

    It’s the Republicans trying to step in the same river. But you can’t do it twice. Which I why I’m salivating at the opportunity to see them try to capture lightning in a bottle again. That’s what they’re banking on, and what they hope, more anything, will bring their party back to the glory days of the 90s. All the reasons I stated above is why they will fail.

  • For what its worth my sister and brother-in-law have supported Republicans their entire voting life and have moved past simply ‘liking’ Obama to supporting his campaign financially. My sister even talked about working for his campaign if he got the nomination. Other friends that I know are pretty conservative have voiced their interest in Obama. I think it is because they are young and party affiliation means a lot less to us of a younger generatio. For many of us no one party seems to have a monopoly on good ideas. Obama does seem to transcend the political of old, not because of his positions (happily for me progressive) but because he does indeed seem to transcend politics. Real or not people my age (30 and younger) are hungry for something different then the what has been the only politics we’ve known.

  • Well, all of my friends are basically life long republicans, though some went independent in 2004. These are business community, “Rockefeller” type conservatives, and a one ore two “Military Family” types. Not religious wing nuts…

    Every single one of them is voting Obama.

    All of them are donating money now. One just gave the maximum amount to Obama. And he’s ordering t-shirts for his daughter to wear to school.

    I think people on both sides of the isle can easily see that Obama is “History in Motion”. This guy is unbelievable. There is no doubt that he’s going to win the general by a land slide. Just as there is no doubt that he will beat Hillary before the primaries are over.

    I have not met one republican in all of my business circles that does not either like of fear Obama.

    But hey, that’s just in my circles.

  • There were Republicans who endorsed Bill Clinton in1992….like Ben Wattenberg. It didn’t last long. And if he actually governs like a Democrat if elected, it won’t last long for them/him either.

  • It’s the Republicans trying to step in the same river.

    Sorry, Memekiller, we can’t go back, either. And now that we know that the people who opposed NAFTA, WTO and all the other job-killers/job-exporters Billy-boy sponsored, and the rest of his “heritage” he’s going to be the Big Liability In The General that ROTFLMLiberaoAO is talking about. We need those independents – we get them with Obama and lose them with Hill and Billary.

    I suggest you take a look at this article at Huffington Post:

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/chuck-lippstreu/on-youth-voters-bill-cli_b_84671.html

  • Oh, I should add… That all of those same republicans I mentioned above are voting McCain if Hillary is elected.

    So am I. And I’m a life long Democrat.

    To Republicans, she is as hateable as GWB is to democrats. And I think we’ve all seen enough divisiveness in the last 15 years, to last us a life time.

    Its time for a change. America is hungry for it.

  • Geeze, people. I support Obama, for Christ’s sakes. Why do you always make that so difficult?

    How are we stepping in the same river? What are we trying to do the same? Unless, by the same river, you mean going with someone with experience and success — let’s not try to repeat it!

    I go back and forth between the two, but what has finally pushed me over to the Obama side has been the idea that we have someone the media might allow us to like — MIGHT. Once they get convince by the echo chamber that they’re too soft on him, they can probably make us hate him just like that made an inspiring figure like Clinton. It’s worked on you Obama supporters, hasn’t it? Listening to you guys is like listening to the callers on talk radio when you talk about the Clintons. It makes me wonder if perhaps Obama’s resume is a little thin if all his support is based on Clinton hatred of yesteryear (who’s still standing in the same river, here?)

    Read my post above on how we place too little emphasis on likeability Focus on “changing the mindset” that got us into Iraq — that is a fair and very real issue with Hillary, as he Kyl Leiberman vote demonstrated, she’s doesn’t seem to have learned anything. If I vote for Obama, as I’m tilting at the moment, if you’ll let me, is because I think he could make us proud to be Americans again. Not because the character assassination of the 90s worked on me, as it did even to Democrats in the 90s.

    If I vote for Obama, it will be because it’s NOT a vote against Hillary. It will be FOR Obama.

  • Jim said:

    Jim, I’m white and I’m voting for Obama. You forgot to add that because Hillary is a woman she’ll lose all of the men’s votes. But, thanks for playing.

  • note to TOM CLEVER you train left and you missed it. I had pretty good years during Bill Clintons presidency and looking forward to more of the good years. For all of you who think Obama is your dream wake up he cannot win a southern state oand he won’t win NY in the general. So forget your wishing and get real.

  • See I care that he didn’t have to make tough choices after 9/11. What has his votes been since I care about. As far as Kyl/Lieberman he voted PRESENT so that is cowardly to me.

  • you might think your republican friends are going to vote for obama, but if he gets the nomination, he will be completely swiftboated. you are fools to suggest he will not be so thoroughly destroyed that all those moderates will abandon him in droves. it will be much worse than kerry. they will knock him down to forty million votes which is what they will have to do to get mccain in there.

    on the other hand, the only way hillary can lose is in the primary, even though that is highly doubtful.

    for those same voters in the middle, clinton is better than obama on national defense and the economy. clinton’s vote for the aumf hurts with the santimonious so called progressives but helps her with the more hawkish middle. mccain cannot outflank her on national security. duh! only you guys want to scream and moan and hold it against her. those voters in the middle made the same mistake she did so why are you saying she can’t win them? maybe she just hasn’t won you because you get off on your puffed up sanctimony on this phoney issue? every other democratic candidate including edwards, kerry, and biden cast the same vote. but it is a problem now that someone who wasn’t there wants to use it against clinton.

    the economy was better under clinton. there is a solid record there as well. mccain has admitted he is stupid on the economy. what has obama done? maybe the problem is that you people aren’t making the case for hillary clinton because you have been so spun by the media for obama.

    i think everyone agrees that bush has made one of the biggest messes of our federal government in the history of this country. giving responsibility to clean that up to someone whose sum total of experience in federal government is less than three years is in my opinion completely unacceptable. obama is not ready for prime time.

  • For what it’s worth, this is part of a Rick Perlstein piece in the Sunday WaPo that I found particularly interesting, both for the historical perspective as for the conclusion:

    One of the most fascinating notions raised by the current presidential campaign is the idea that the United States can and must finally overcome the divisions of the 1960s. It’s most often associated with the ascendancy of Sen. Barack Obama, who has been known to entertain it himself. Its most gauzy champion is pundit Andrew Sullivan, who argued in a cover article in the December Atlantic Monthly that, “If you are an American who yearns to finally get beyond the symbolic battles of the Boomer generation and face today’s actual problems, Obama may be your man.”

    No offense to either Obama or Sullivan, but: No he isn’t. No one is.

    [snip]

    In Sullivan’s attempt to exorcise the 1960s, for example, he behaves like a textbook pundit . . . in the 1960s. Back then, pundits were always imagining magically conciliatory figures with the power to make the awful cacophony stop. Quiet and civil Eugene McCarthy challenged Johnson for the 1968 Democratic nomination as an antiwar candidate; columnist Mary McGrory called him “visibly and dramatically successful [in] closing the gap between the generations.” Then came Robert F. Kennedy, whom the columnist Joseph Kraft likewise proclaimed to be one who held in his hands the power to unite “Black Power and Backlash.”

    In fact, both figures turned out to be massively polarizing. McCarthy was despised by Americans who saw all antiwar activists as harbingers of anarchy — like the cops at the 1968 Democratic convention who were spotted vandalizing cars with McCarthy bumper stickers. Polls showed that RFK was “intensely disliked” by 50 percent more people than Johnson — who was so intensely disliked that he had to drop out of the 1968 presidential race. Nixon, traditionally believed to be the most divisive figure in American politics, was also reinvented that year as a uniquely uniting figure; Kraft praised his ability to call the country to “charity and forbearance.”

    Four years later, many saw George McGovern the same way — as “a politician of reconciliation,” in the South Dakotan’s own words. The Republican National Committee didn’t get the memo. “He is in reality a dedicated radical extremist,” declared its monthly magazine, First Monday, who would “unilaterally disarm . . . and open the White House to riotous street mobs.”

    A President Obama could no more magically transcend America’s ’60s-born divisions than McCarthy, Kennedy, Nixon or McGovern could, for the simple reason that our society is defined as much by its arguments as by its agreements. Over the meaning of “family,” on sexual morality, on questions of race and gender and war and peace and order and disorder and North and South and a dozen other areas, we remain divided in ways that first arose after the assassination of President John F. Kennedy in 1963. What Andrew Sullivan dismisses as “the symbolic battles of the Boomer generation” do not separate us from our “actual problems”; they define us, as much as the Great War defined France in the 1920s, ’30s, ’40s and beyond. Pretending otherwise simply isn’t healthy. It’s repression — the kind of thing that shrinks say causes neurosis.

    The entire thing is here: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/02/01/AR2008020102827.html

    People seem only to want to focus on the magic of people like JFK and RFK and even McGovern, and want to make Obama out to be the “next” of these leaders – but they do it without considering the totality of those particular times, and the feeling on the other side – and there was another side. There is so much discussion about the times that surrounded Bill Clinton, and everyone wants to remind us that he wasn’t as effective as some claim he was. Maybe that makes sense from the standpoint that most of us actually remember the Clinton years, but not being able to remember the Kennedy years is no excuse for not considering that all was not sunshine and roses.

  • mindless republicans jumping from one personality cult to another. how is this new when we just had eight years of mindless personality cultism? and you are excited that the same mindless personality cultists that cheered bush’s disastrous policies are throwing in with your guy!

    i mean god you want crow about how redstaters and republicans who supported bush’s war are dying to join obama, but you can’t stand hillary for supporting bush’s war? that’s effing psychotic.

  • english teacher is right. you all sound like Obama is the second coming of christ.

    p.s. whos oprah i haven’t seen or heard of him/her i have a job

  • I think Obama is making a conscious effort to run a personality campaign, where any voter can see the President they want in him. Basically, he’s saying, if you like me, you’ll like my Presidency. So he’s being purposely obtuse because once he takes positions he can be labeled liberal, anti-war, centrist, whatever. So he’s selling the fact that everyone can like him, and once they like him, they can rationalize whatever he actually does.

    The other thing is, I think form follows function in the sense that if he talks about changing the mindset in Washington, his Presidency will naturally follow and develop policies that fit that mold. In the same way kids who are told they are stupid become stupid, if you create a campaign about changing Washington, you change Washington. Politicians jump on the bandwagon, and that’s the frame under which an Obama Washington will operate.

  • no that’s the frame that will have obama rendered ineffective by the corporate power structure in about two months. that is, if he’s planning on doing anything once he gets there. but of course he won’t, because he will never survive a general election campaign.

    they will say obama was against the war before he was for it and his republican support will fold like a cheap suit. they will swift boat him five ways from sunday and succeed in peeling off about ten or twenty million votes right across the middle by virtue of baseless smears that won’t start until after he gets the nomination. they will make history of him in about two weeks. hell you are so gullible they will probably have you voting for mccain and you’ll never even know what happened. if you do not remember this basic fact about the last three democratic presidential nominess then you have no business commenting on it. sorry but you are in a war and your dreams of getting along with republicans by giving them somebody they say they can get along with is ignorant, stupid, and uninformed. i personally cannot afford this stupid obama pipe dream, nor can america.

    if you don’t see this then you do not know who you are dealing with. neither you nor obama are ready for prime time.

    the republicans have spent more time, money, and effort on stopping hillary clinton than they have any other democratic politician in this country. and yet here she is, poised to take the nomination and sweep in a new democratic congressional majority. the only thing slowing that down is barack obama. hillary clinton has earned our support. hillary clinton will fight for working people. barack obama hasn’t earned jack and won’t do jack. he is not ready for prime time because neither he nor his supporters seem to have any idea what he is getting into.

  • We were told Kerry would be fucking bringing the Republicans and the youth vote, but ultimately he failed to deliver them. Polls and endorsements show that Obama is delivering them. I’m sold — and I wasn’t, for a long time.

  • kerry failed to deliver because he got swiftboated duh wtf do you think they are going to do to obama?

  • I don’t think swiftboating is going to work on anybody. I said I thought the primaries were good, and part of the reason is it showed that this stuff doesn’t stick to Obama. The Rezco think is a prime example. That would have flown in the 90s, but it’s not going to. Nor will it work on Hillary. All the insinuations are pale now compared to what the Republican Party has condoned and supported.

    I think the ground has shifted. I don’t think the media is up for it — they’re relieved to finally get to stop protecting Bush, and have no stomach left to be the kind of hypocrite required to scandalize trivialities. The public is sick of it, and when you have something like future-Washington-Times Editor Tapper, we have a network in place to rain down on them and make them pay a price for it. The fact that Solomon got the boot is a very good sign.

    Can’t step in the same river twice.

  • English teacher is not a happy camper. Well, I guess if I’d put all my eggs in the Hillary is Inevitability basket, I’d be pretty sour myself. I sure hope he didn’t send any campaign cash. Because that investment is NOT paying any dividends in 2008.

    I find it incredibly strange how much bile is flowing from Hillary supporters. I mean really… Ok, your candidate is going to lose.

    But at least she’s losing to Obama, the Michael Jordan of Stumping, instead of losing to McCain.

    You should try to understand his talent, rather than hating him because of his extraordinary gifts. Be thankful our party is smart enough to field the greatest politician we’re likely to see in a generation.

  • Why do those F—ING Obama sheeeeple F—ING vote by using their hearts!!! Its not LOGICAL !!! Hillary supporters use their F—ING BRAINS!!! We know how to THINK about the ISSUES!!! We don’t believe in using your F—ING HEART!!!

    We ARE note emotional like those F—ING Obama DRONES that follow Obama like F—ING BORG!!!

    Use your HEADS people!!! Not your heart. Don’t be so F—ING emotional.

    To this I say:

    yes we can
    yes we can
    yes we can

  • I will support Obama only if he’s the Democratic nominee, because I will not vote for a Republican under any circumstances. But until then, I find him to be too much the political chameleon for my tastes. I think people are seeing in him exactly what they want to see.

  • i should try to understand his talent? do you even read what you type.

    clinton has a talent for standing up to republicans and being effective. that i understand.

  • memekiller i would like to point out that if you think “swiftboating” won’t work on obama, well… let me just say think about that again for a second okay.

  • thorin: You mean ‘idiots’ who don’t know where anyone stands but always believe the mud that Republicans throw.

    Yeah, I know a few of them. Of course they like Obama now. They know nothing about him.

    And once the mud starts flying those fairweather idiots will be riding off on another horse.

  • Crissa,

    Well, thanks for calling me an idiot. Not sure I’d feel comfortable being on the same team with an @ss#ole such as yourself.

    ~

    As to whether or not I know where Obama stands… Well I’ve been paying pretty close attention to this race for the last year. Obama has been vetted. I’ve got a good sense of how he perceives Constitutional Law (As a civil rights lawyer and editor of Harvard Law Review). I know where he stands on Iraq, Iran and internationalism generally. I know where he stands on Choice, his records speaks for it’s self. I’ve got a handle on his views regarding poverty and civil rights.

    All of which I give him VERY high marks.

    He’s got some spots that are softer than others. For example he’s prolly wrong about mandates in the health care plan.

    But you know what? He’s pretty much inline with almost everything I care about. But each democrat has his own issues I suppose.

    ~

    But in the final analysis, I’m sure you’re right. We Fair-weather Idiots look forward to riding off on another horse.

  • Reagan drew support from conservative Democrats, not liberals.

    Conservatives aren’t going to vote for Obama in November, and believing they will is just wishful thinking.

    Coulter isn’t really going to vote for Hillary either.

  • If you support anything Obama supports…

    …You were an idiot to vote Republican.

    Not a single national Republican platform in the last forty years has ever supported anything Obama does… Except maybe things that Obama and Clinton support.

    So are you brave enough to admit you were wrong?

    Or are you really one of those swayed most by the lack of dirt thrown at someone?

  • HYPE or HOPE?
    Restore America’s greatness…Bring refreshing change; Elect Obama!
    Your potential, his passion…Like a good neighbor, Obama is there!
    Between love and madness lies Obama…Unlesh the power; Vote Obama!
    Cool dudes vote for cool dudes…Did somebody say Obama?
    OMG, this like totally changes everything…It’s Obama — we’re saved!
    Want lower prices on prescriptions drugs? Obama!
    Give me Obama, or give me death…I’m Cuckoo for Cocoa Puffs!
    Barack rules, and we drool…Silly rabbit, Trix are for kids!
    Can you hear me now…Like no other…One word: Camelot!
    Obama transcends politics…Have you driven a Ford lately?
    Our towering king of good government…Born to lead; Barck Obama!
    People all over the world clap your hands!
    When elected Obama WILL shake-hands with leaders like Hillary Clinton.
    Pardon me. Do you have any Grey Poupon?
    When great is not enough; Barack Obama!
    Congradulations, you’ve just won an new i-phone!
    Uncommon political courage…Hello yellow brick road!
    Amazing weight loss secrets to be reveled!
    Possibly the greatest statesman ever; Barack Obama!
    Get well soon Britney…Without Obama we’re doomed!
    Own your own business…Make big $$$ working from home, guaranteed!
    Progress is spelled; O-B-A-M-A…Barack rocks!
    Vote like you mean it…For a better future, elected Barack Obama!
    Obama is like a winning lottery ticket…Change we can believe in!
    Drive a new car, meet your soul-mate, say halləluya…Celebrate Obama!
    Turn the page…Become debt free…Vote for Obama!
    Sometimes miracles do happen…Tested and experienced!
    Earn 4.80% APY on your savings…World peace = Obama
    Tax rebates, plus a free HD-TV…Save the planet; Vote Obama!
    Welcome to Scientolgy…In Obama We Trust…Get better gas mileage!
    Putting America first…It’s about entegritry, stupid!!
    I just saved a bunch of money on my car insurance!
    A Better Way forward; Obama…Only you can prevent forest fires!
    Amazing grace…Be all you can be…Unstopable; Obama!
    Beyond petroleum…Everything’s possible; Obama!
    Dude, you’re getting an awesome president!
    Ask not what Obama can do for you; Ask what you can do for Obama!
    Finally, sanity makes a comeback…Proud again to be an American!
    Amend the Constitution; President Obama for life!
    Make room Mount Rushmore; Here comes Obama!
    Be fearless…Voted for Obama? Nailed it!

  • After reading the 90 posts above, I just can’t get over the hostility between Clinton and Obama voters.. simply amazing.

    With all it’s problems, I don’t think the hostility in the GOP has reached levels like this, despite by all accounts its “maverick” winning the nomination.

  • Anyhow, it’s just some fairweather moderates being pissy about actually having to choose a centrist they’ve been fed to hate and a bright star yet to be tarnished or differed.

    Which will I vote for?

    I’m no longer sure. But I’d never actively considered voting for either of these two.

  • I have voted republican for the last 6 presidential elections.

    As a young man, I worked on the local Reagan ’84 campaign

    I will vote for Obama if given a chance.

    There are more important things in life than party. What little damage he could do as another democrat socialist is more than offset by the good he could do.

    Call it Obama fever; heck, call it self-preservation.

  • speaking of crossovers, here’s a bit of disturbing information — two young men i know in their early 20s say they’ll vote for mccain. why? because, given the choice between a black man, a woman and a white guy they will vote for the white guy. really, simple as that. what’s so disturbing about it is i fear they represent ‘working stiffs’ who don’t pay attention to the issues and are only concerned with perpetuating the myth of white male dominance, even tho voting for the republican candidate adversely affects their pocketbook. but i’m not sure these non-college educated guys can see beyond the perceived threats coming at their manhood.

    this is probably why the ‘dream ticket’ of obama/clinton would just be too much change for many to tolerate.

  • Tom C wrote: “Folks like our comrade Zeitgeist – who think that the size of the “big tent” should only be big enough for those who can document their long-term opposition to Republicans – need to re-think their attitudes.”

    This is amusing coming from an admitted “Republican Hater” like Tom.

    Look, by any reasonable analysis something like 60 to 70% of American’s have suffered or lost ground under Boy George II’s administration. The next 10 or so percent, which includes me, live in the constant danger that a medical crisis or massive layoff will throw us into poverty, to the point we lose the chance to send our children to college, lose our homes or even become totally homeless.

    That being the case, a solid progressive program of policies to protect Americans is the Democrats road not only to the White House but to a permenant majority for a decade or more.

    But to implement those programs the Demcratic candidate has to RUN on them, not on a supposed ability to make nice with the Republican’ts.

    thorin wrote: “I find it incredibly strange how much bile is flowing from Hillary supporters. I mean really… Ok, your candidate is going to lose. But at least she’s losing to Obama, the Michael Jordan of Stumping, instead of losing to McCain.”

    The hatred I see spewed out here (and I read 90% of the comments) against Hillary far outweights the hatred of Obama (which is more in the way of disdain, to my eye). There’s a lot more of “I won’t vote for Hillary” then there are of “I won’t vote for Obama (one to my count)”.

    Crissa said: “If you support anything Obama supports You were an idiot to vote Republican.”

    That’s a point with which I have to agree. It seems, reading a lot of these posts, that some Obama supporters are saying “I’m not going to vote for Hillary in November so you’d better not vote for the Democratic Nominee of your choice because I’ll stamp my little feet and throw a fit rather than vote for my own policies.”

    As for Obamacans, they are not like Reagan Democrats. They are like the independents, democrats and liberal Republicans who vote for McCain, even though they are pro-choice, anti-war and anti-Bush while McCain is pro-life, pro-occupation and pro-Bush. In short, they have given up any chance of voting for their policies for the chance to vote for ‘authenticity’. Obamacans believe that Obama is ‘authentic’ too. That’s the buzzword for the 2008 election. What’s amusing is that conservatives don’t think McCain is an ‘authentic’ conservative while the independents, democrats and liberal Republicans who vote for McCain think he is an ‘authentic’ something. But he claims to be a conservative, so what else could he be authentic at?

    Obama claims to be progressive. If he’s ‘authentic’, what else could he be but an ‘authentic liberal’? Won’t that mean in the General he has to run as one, or he has to run as nothing.

    Thank you, I’m not interested in four years of nothing.

  • Jim at 68:

    As far as Kyl/Lieberman he voted PRESENT so that is cowardly to me.

    Well, people (including some of our commenters here) keep repeating that, but it’s not true. The vote was rescheduled, and despite assurances from Harry Reid that it would not come up in the forseeable future, he brought it to the floor just after Obama had left town to campaign. He released a statement that day that he clearly opposed it. One can bicker about whether he should have pulled out all the stops to get back to the floor… so that it could pass 76-23 instead of 76-22… but it’s absolutely untrue to say he voted present, and it’s deeply misleading to suggest that he ducked the vote.

    Plus, Hillary voted FOR it. How is that better, exactly?

  • It does seem a little petulant to not support Clinton if she wins the nomination. At least consider that a vote for Clinton nullifies a vote for McCain.

  • it is better because hillary cannot be outflanked by a hawk in the general.

    do what they will, they cannot say that hillary is weak, or that she is afraid of using force.

    hillary can and will destroy mccain on national security because she is more competent, and she is just as tough.

    but she is not as crazy. she knows she made a mistake to authorize force.

    but she is not weak or inexperienced on security.

    she will begin getting us out of iraq in sixty days.

    what will obama do? is he even strongly anti war? what is his plan to keep telling people he made a speech about a vote he didn’t make?

    obama was against the war before he was for it.

    mccain will fold him up like a cheap suit and obama’s vaunted republican appeal will vanish into the wind.

    checkmate hillary.

  • JRS proves yet again that his brain isn’t wired up real good.

    See any Dems of any significance threatening to support McCain over either Obama or Clinton?

    Now look at Ann Coulter. Yes, she’s a clown, but she is a clown who has a large following, and she claims she’ll vote for Hillary over McCain.

  • Wow… English Teacher is lecturing us about how we project onto Obama? lol. Well, in 101 he seems to be doing his own projecting onto Hillary.

    I think David Geffin (a Clinton supporter gone detractor) captured very clearly what’s wrong with the Clintons. The ease with which these two lie is disgusting.

    And to tell you the truth, having Hillary supporters call me a zombie, borg, irrational, mindless cool aid drinker and of course “fair-weather idiots” only reinforces my convictions.

    Well you get the picture. It doesn’t endear them much to me. Nor does it sway me from what I believe America needs more than any other thing.

    Change. Unity. Hope.

    So, Hillary supporters can keep trying to triangulate, and divide and conquer. But this time the Clintons are not getting the white house. No way. No how.

    yes we can
    yes we can
    yes we can

  • Crissa Wrote:

    If you support anything Obama supports……You were an idiot to vote Republican. Not a single national Republican platform in the last forty years has ever supported anything Obama does… Except maybe things that Obama and Clinton support. So are you brave enough to admit you were wrong? Or are you really one of those swayed most by the lack of dirt thrown at someone?

    ~

    Ummm…. Not exactly. Actually, I think your post is contemptible to any thinking person who cares about America. We are electing the president of the United States. Not class president. I can forgive your republican hatred because of what we’ve been through the last 8 years thanks to rove and friends. But I honestly believe you are so blinded by a desire for revenge that you are not thinking rationally about Hillary.

    But that’s just me.

    Regarding McCain I actually find McCain to be one of the most honorable republicans out there. And I’ve followed his record pretty closely since 2000. And I’ve also read every post Steve Benen has ever written about McCain. I’ve met McCain and I believe he is a pretty decent guy. I am aware of what’s wrong with McCain as a candidate. If I where to rank the according to wrongness I’d give McCain a 6. I’d give Hillary a 9.

  • Obama’s message emphasizes “unity and hope rather than division and resentment,” rather than the “politics of rage.”

    This baffles me. Their party is responsible for the “politics of rage”. They started it. They created it. It’s their baby. How on Earth can they be upset about it?

  • so the biggest reason you are voting for obama is so clinton can’t go in and return this country to the same policies which gave us the greatest economy in the history of this country?

    you don’t want a clinton because you are sick of democrats who fight back? you are tired of dems that win, they are so yesterday?

    you are sick of a balanced budget ugh the name clinton just makes you sick!

    you are voting for obama, mainly because he is not clinton. that is what you said.

    do you wonder why REAL DEMS might think obama is a manchurian candidate. hell you practically admitted thats why you like him, BECAUSE HE’S NOT A REAL DEMOCRAT.

    if obama is all that, why doesn’t he start his own party?

  • English teacher,

    The digree to which you ascribe motives to others is borderline psychotic. And I hope you get back onto your medication.

  • Obama isn’t all that, english teacher, otherwise he wouldn’t have done the things he did at the state level. He’s pretty much a middle of the road Democrat.

    But in what way is he different than Clinton?

    The answer seems to be twofold: Lots of fairweather friends like thorin who are too afraid of being an idiot than actually having, you know, facts and principles. And there’s those, apparently also like thorin, who have Clinton Derangement Syndrome.

    He’s also younger, passed less bills at the federal level, and has voted slightly, ever so slightly, more liberal than Clinton. But he’s never had his mettle tested, never stood with Webb or Dodd on the hard issues. So in that, he’s no different than Clinton.

  • Oh, now I don’t have “facts and principles”. You guys in the Hillary Camp are just great.

    Again I come back to david geffen. The ease with which the clinton’s can lie is just disgusting.

    As she leads. So they follow.

  • thorin i am old engough to remember the greatest economy in the history of this country under the first clinton and i want another clinton in the white house. i want hillary clinton worse than the most devoted obama supporter wants obama. but that doesn’t sit well with you.

    well i say suck on it. i am proud to support hillary clinton. obama is a fake empty suit diletante.

    anybody that thinks this empty charlatan is up to the job of cleaning up after bush is just plain dumb.

  • Speaking of dumb, if you post as “english teacher”, you really ought to learn to spell the word “dilettante”. Or maybe you’re looking for a different word entirely, because I cannot begin to fathom how you could apply that word to Obama. I don’t know many dilettante lawyer/community organizer/state senator/author/US Senators.

  • Ah yes, I must be for Hillary because I’m not against her.

    Nevermind the outright skip-and-bound past my attempt to actually engage on issues.

  • I know it’s far past the point, but I’m betting thorin hasn’t matched up any of Obama’s quotes to make sure he isn’t lying, since he’s depending upon someone else to do the same for Clinton.

    Of course, since no one (who isn’t a Clinton supporter!) is, then by his logic, he must be telling the truth.

    Fairweather friend, defined.

  • JRS Jr said:After reading the 90 posts above, I just can’t get over the hostility between Clinton and Obama voters.. simply amazing.
    With all it’s problems, I don’t think the hostility in the GOP has reached levels like this, despite by all accounts its “maverick” winning the nomination.

    Oh take your Clinton-baiting, Republican sucking ass off somewhere else.

    It’s different when a Democratic cirticises Clinton than when righties do it. The motive is different. And the wordlview is different.

  • Another gem from Crissa:

    I know it’s far past the point, but I’m betting Thorin hasn’t matched up any of Obama’s quotes to make sure he isn’t lying, since he’s depending upon someone else to do the same for Clinton. Of course, since no one (who isn’t a Clinton supporter!) is, then by his logic, he must be telling the truth.

    Fairweather friend, defined.

    ~

    You’re betting are you? Well, how much cash you want to put on that? I have been mainlining the internet for the last 8 years. I spend on average 8 hours a day reading news and blogs. I doubt you could find someone who’s consumed more news that I have, with the exception of Steve Benen. I tune into about 20 news papers and blogs on an average day. I have studied Obama meticulously. As have I studied the Clintons.

    I’m confident I know his record and rhetoric far better than you do.

    My conclusions regarding Obama? Is that this guy is a once in a lifetime candidate. A political party fields a politician of this caliber once a generation. And if (by some miracle/curse) Hillary wins the nomination, I want a one term McCain. And we run Obama again in 4.

    I see Hillary as a toddler running against a titan.

    I look forward to her concession speech, and we can begin stomping republicans.

  • I am an Obamacan! We are out here, we are not idiots, and we are not confused about what we believe or who we are supporting. We believe that Obama CAN do what he says and that we CAN be a better country with him as President. No need for all the mean-ness and mockery- vote for whomever you believe in, but Hilary loses to McCain in the general election.

  • I am a 36 year old male and I have been a Republican from the first time i ever entered a voting booth. I have never voted Democrat. But, I am voting for Obama. And I know of several others like me who will be doing the same. I don’t agree with his position on many issues, but his appeal to positive, uniting politics is refreshing and exactly what this country needs. For me, I don’t exactly know what kind of change we need, i just know we can’t have 8 more years of GWB politics adn policy – I am embarassed that I ever cast a vote for Bush. And, asside from 3 or 4 issues, McCain and Obama are not that far a part on the issues – they have some different ideas and approaches, but none from Obama which are completely unreasonable. Given the last 8 years, i am willing to give Obama a chance…but its funny – i would never feel the same way about Hillary!

    BTW – Obamacans feel this way in spite of people like Dale!!!! I won’t shove my religion down your throat – don’t shove your atheism down mine! If you want to drive Obamacans back to the Republican party just keep up that type of rhetoric!

  • I am a registered Rep. and usually vote for Rep’s, but have voted for Dem’s over the years. Of late, though, I have become increasingly disenchanted with the right wing rhetoric of the Rep. party, and I am not alone. The emperor has no clothes…..on immigration, foreign policy, public education, the list goes on and on………….but incredulously they march on, arrogant and clueless, not realizing that moderates, progressives, and independents, the practical-minded ones who in fact may be “conservative” on some issues, feel disenchanted, betrayed, insulted and ignored. I do not trust Sen. Clinton, and so will not go there. She has habits of destruction that everyone, including many Dem’s, should fear, and to have even a semblance of a co-presidency should give everyone pause. So, Sen. Obama is my man. He is visionary and progressive, but practical. To be practical, one does not give up on principle or sacrifice vision; it simply means that there is a will to hammer out real solutions and sound policies.

    As another writer mentioned about his father in an earlier post, my mother, a die-hard Rep. and a very conservative one, is very disappointed with George Bush, and feels hoodwinked. I couldn’t believe it then when she said, “I will never vote for Hillary, but I like Mr. Obama. And his wife is one smart lady.” Go figure……….what an interesting and exciting time this is. Transformative indeed.

    Debates between Sen’s Obama and McCain would be cleansing and invigorating. I believe that we would have the opportunity to see the candidates address the issues of the day, a clear view into how they would govern, and who would challenge us more as a country. A debate between Sen’s Clinton and McCain would be a deja vu experience, dredging up all of the old Clinton stuff. The issues would become footnotes. And the saddest part is that all of the open-minded, fresh-thinking young people would likely drift away and a grand opportunity would have been lost. Let’s not let that happen.

  • I am the mythical creature you all call an obamacan….I am not sure if it’s fear of melon head (hereafter referred to as hillary)….I knew I had been sucked in when I was sitting in my car screaming at Mark levin for castigating michelle obama for taking on the deplorable conditions in our public schools. Apparently, she was being “negative.” There I was screaming, “she’s being REAL, you moron!” The earth tilted on it’s axis, the stars aligned and suddenly I was a traitor to the conservative cause. You know why I like Barack Obama? He reminds me of John F. Kennedy, Malcolm X and Abe lincoln. He reminds me of what a leader used to be. A person with vision. A person whose intellect I can admire, whose ideas I respect. I appreciate that he doesn’t just want “enlightened” republicans who agree. He wants republicans who will find common ground with him and with every AMERICAN out there so that we can get things DONE. A person who hasn’t been bought and sold, a person who won’t play the race card, a person who won’t continue this destructive policy of not only not talking to other countries, but so dividing us as a people that we don’t even talk to each other. He is the only one stating that we are in this thing together. I haven’t told my husband, mother in law or anyone else for that matter, but I am voting for Barack if I get the chance. If he doesn’t make it I won’t vote at all. Whose left then? Melon head and Methusala?
    No Thanks.
    cm. oursler

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