Beat ’em for Jesus! The unhappy childhood of Dr. James Dobson

Guest Post by Morbo

Have you ever wondered why Dr. [tag]James Dobson[/tag] of [tag]Focus on the Family[/tag] is such a nutcase? Why is he so obsessed with the sex lives of people he doesn’t even know? Why does he hate gay people so much? Why does he claim to love Jesus so much, and then behave in a vicious manner so unlike Christ?

A recent profile of Dobson sheds some light on these questions. As it turns out, Dobson’s parents physically and mentally abused him as a child, and he once got beaten up in school by a kid even Dobson admits was widely acknowledged to be a “sissy.”

The article in a Denver magazine called “5280” makes Dobson’s mother, Myrtle, sound like a real piece of work. Notes writer Eileen Welsome:

Myrtle [tag]Dobson[/tag] was an amiable and social woman, but she didn’t hesitate to whack her son with a shoe or belt when she felt it was required. Consequently, Dobson writes, he learned at an early age to stay out of striking distance when he back-talked to his mother. One day he made the mistake of mouthing off when she was only four feet away and heard a 16-pound girdle whistling through the air. “The intended blow caught me across the chest, followed by a multitude of straps and buckles wrapping themselves around my midsection.” The girdle incident did not dampen his defiance, however. One evening, after Dobson’s mother forbid him from going to a dance, the recalcitrant teenager told her that he was going anyway; she picked up the telephone and called her husband. “I need you,” she said.

The article continues: “‘What happened in the next few days shocked me down to my toes,’ writes Dobson.”

His father canceled the next four years’ worth of speaking engagements, put the Oklahoma house up for sale, and took a pastor’s job in San Benito, Texas, a small town near the Mexican border. Dobson had two years of high school left, and when he started classes he found himself the target of a couple of bullies. Rather than turn the other cheek, Dobson wheeled around and threw his schoolbooks in the face of one annoying youth. “By the time he could see me again I was on top of him,” Dobson writes. Dobson also tried a little bullying himself, targeting a boy whom he sized up as a “sissy.” But the boy gave him such a thrashing that Dobson concluded bullying wasn’t for him.

Elsewhere the story notes that in the Dobson household there were “a million rules…regulations and prohibitions for almost every imaginable situation.” Dobson recalls being “chewed out for using the expression ‘Hot dog!’ and forbidden from uttering ‘darn,’ ‘geez,’ or ‘dad-gummit’ because they were considered shorthand swear words.”

Even more alarming, Dobson admits in one of his books that as a child he arranged a fight between two mismatched dogs. The battle involved a tenacious bulldog and a “sweet, passive Scottie named Baby,” and Dobson provoked it by throwing a tennis ball toward Baby. He writes what happened next: “The bulldog went straight for Baby’s throat and hung on. It was an awful scene. Neighbors came running from everywhere as the Scottie screamed in terror. It took ten minutes and a garden hose for the adults to pry loose the bulldog’s grip. By then Baby was almost dead. He spent two weeks in the animal hospital, and I spent two weeks in the doghouse. I was hated by the entire town.”

As any child psychologist will tell you, this type of cruelty toward animals is a sign of a serious psychological disturbance.

So Dobson got smacked around with shoes and belts — for the heinous crime of exclaiming “hot dog!” His parents were uptight fanatics who mistreated him, and his mom even threw intimate undergarments at him. He got abused at a new school and lost a fight to a smaller kid. On at least one occasion, he was mean to a dog.

This is all a shame, and now I think I better understand why Dobson constantly tries to use the raw power of the state to cram fundamentalist Christianity down our throats: He had a lousy [tag]childhood[/tag].

There is a better way, Jim. Admit that these childhood demons still haunt you. Get help. Find a counselor. Talk it out. You have issues, dude. There’s no shame in that. Get the help you need and quit trying to gloss over your crummy upbringing by messing up the entire country.

Let this be a lesson to all of us as well. I’ve complained on this blog before about parents who use corporal punishment on children. Children certainly do misbehave at times, but nothing excuses physically assaulting youngsters. If the moral arguments against beating kids do not persuade you, consider this: As you spank your child, you may be shaping the country’s next James Dobson.

Sadly, I think this treatment is indicative of quite a few far right-wing zealots. They’ve been abused — physically, verbally, maybe sexually — and that plays promininently in their worldview. Dobson doesn’t hesitate to advise “Christian” parents to smack the crap out of their kids at the first sign of “defiance.” It amazes me anyone accepts and follows this man’s advice on child-rearing.

  • Looks like little Jimmy Dobson’s angry at the world and wants us to suffer as much as he did.

    Explains why he and GW get along so well. Bush on the Couch is a very scary book.

    But the problem is that Fundies consider psychology and psychiatry to be the same as voodoo and won’t go near it. more than likely they’re too afraid to look into the dark abyss of their soul.

  • There is a difference between hitting a child out of anger and enforcing discipline. Hitting a kid out of frustration and anger teaches them all the wrong lessons. On the other hand letting them get away with minimal punishments for transgressions does harm as well.

    1. The rules & punishment must be crystal clear.
    2. The rules & punishment must be applied consistently.
    3. A discussion with the child should be had before and after the punishment to ensure that it is fair, and that the reason for it is understood.

    The problem is not corporal punishment, but deadbeat parents who beat their kids because they have no impulse control. On top of that, kids are people with their own dispositions… some will be messed up no matter what you do, some will be pleasant and sunny in spite of what they do. Corporal punishment will have a better chance of keeping the former in line (while the parents arrange counselling) while the latter group will not likely receive it very often.

    Again, this is a moot point really as it is the quality of the parents and the homelife that matter. Good parents can use corporal punishment effectively, while bad parents use it in the worst way possible.

  • What is it with these nutsos? I’m thinking of Dobson at the moment, but could as well refer to George Bush, probably any Neocon or TV preacher as well. They’re smart enough to know something’s wrong, yet they won’t seek help.

    They seem to have displaced the causal agent. Since it isn’t them (or their parents in them), it must be someone else — sinners (defined by you), races (take your pick), religions (all but yours are evil). Or it must be something else — the arrangement of the stars, the will of the gods, the age in which they live (“The time is out of joint; O cursed spite, That ever I was born to set it right!”, Hamlet I, v).

    I wonder how many political and religious ideologies have been concocted because their originator/perpetrator wouldn’t seek help. According to Nietzsche, every one of them: “Gradually I came to learn what every great philosophy has been up to now, namely, the self-confession of its originator and a form of unintentional and unrecorded memoir….” (Beyond Good and Evil, 6th aphorism).

    How many people have suffered because it never occurred to most them, especially their leaders, that the “The fault, dear Brutus, is not in our stars,
    But in ourselves…” (Julius Caesar, I, ii).

    I think the worst thing Psychology ever did was to conflate Psychology with Medicine through the designation “mental illness”. The designation implies that there is a “cure”. As with real illness, it also drives people like Dobson or Bush from seeking that “cure”. If a pill will cure a behavior problem, then it’s just ordinary medicine – physical manipulation of a physical being. Most of these “behavioral” problems don’t need a doctor. What they need is a teacher, a guru, someone who can show a Dobson or a Bush how he got that way and how to correct it (or at least not behave that way). Someone who will point out of Dobson that he’s not “the voice of God” and to Bush that he’s not “the decider”.

    All our lives would be better of if such people weren’t driven to concoct such harmful political and religious ideologies, leaving the rest of us alone to enjoy life as we find it, i.e., rationally. That, I think, was the great secret of the Age of Reason, the age which spawned our Founding Fathers.

  • Hey, Xeroman:

    You’ve still got it totally wrong if you insist on corporal punishment. Rules 1 and 2 for parents are absolutely right. Tempered with “justice” when necessary, rather than blind use of them.

    And you get much further when you compliment the kid for doing things right than when you whack them for doing things wrong.

    I speak from the experience of having had the rules applied “wrong” in my childhood, applying them wrong at the beginning of my relationship with my step kids, learning “positive reinforcement” and having the result be three outstanding adults anyone would be proud to know, work with, and be friends with.

  • Sounds like an excerpt from “How to Create A Psychopath in Your Spare Time.” I’m with CB. “Get help. Find a counselor.” Deal with your problems but don’t make them mine.

  • Tom,
    I’d hazard a guess that you’re a decent person, and had a good heart as a kid. You turned out ok from what I’ve seen of your posts here. I have to disagree with you on this topic though. Corporal punishment is a tool that if used correctly can have a positive impact. Just as positive reinforcement is. However not all kids respond to kind words. It can be argued however that good parents will raise good kids without having to resort to corporal punishment, and that bad parents will use corporal punishment far more often. I’d agree with that. My point is that liberals have made corporal punishment a big no no which I do not agree with. This is one area in which I have a more conservative bent. Kids will be kids, and just as some kids from bad homes will turn out to be decent, some kids from good homes will turn out to be bad. Once again, it is really a moot point. Nature & Nurture play their parts in forming a child… and if one of those is bad the other has to be exceptional in order to compensate. For some kids you need a real threat to get through to them. Look at some of the kids nowadays… they are out of control. Parenting is going down the toilet it seems in many ways. Kids are certainly a lot less respectful of adults then they were a few generations ago. That is not for lack of corporal punishment, but lack of good parenting. Words and time-outs don’t mean squat to some kids. Now I’m not saying that corporal punishment is a necessary part of good parenting, but I will say that corporal punishment does not automatically make the parents bad. Good parents should not be criticized if they choose to resort to corporal punishment. Some kids won’t respond to anything less. Taking away the stick so to speak makes the other punishments toothless. Tell the kid to go to their room, and if he/she refuses then what? Ground them? Have a long talk? How is a parent supposed to enforce these punishments? What is to stop the kid from flipping their parent the bird and walking away? Rely on the kid’s good nature? Does the parent kick them out if they don’t comply? This is an extreme example obviously, but it demonstrates where things can go if there is no option of corporal punishment. Sometimes kids will push the limit, and you need to be able to enforce the rules. I’ve personally seen some truly atrocious behaviour in some kids towards their parents. The parents have never laid a finger on them, and have been very loving. The kids have no respect for them though, and are blatantly rude to them. The parents feel powerless, and indeed they are. In this case peers played a part in shaping the kids rebellion. Corporal punishment could have potentially have brought them back under control. There are forces that are beyond a parents control, and to deny them a tool that might have an impact is foolish.

    This could easily turn into a long discussion about cultural and societal norms. If a society tells a kid that they are abused, and have a right to be angry & messed up, then why should they not be angry & messed up? If a society tells a kid that their parents have no right to punish them physically, then won’t the kid realize that the parents have little power to hurt them? In previous generations it was the norm that if you did something stupid, you would be punished for it. It was acceptable, and kids didn’t grow into adults feeling that they had been unfairly victimized. Now the norm is that corporal punishment is bad, and now kids are growing into adults with issues because society is telling them that they went through a terrible ordeal, and that their parents are bad. As stuffy as the 50’s was, I certainly would prefer the respectful children of that generation to the ones now. True enough that the economics had a huge impact, and that many youth today don’t see a bright future for themselves economically. That aside, discipline was important then, and it seems far less lax now.

    Anyways, that is just my opinion.

  • I would also like to comment on Xeroman as well. I think in theory one might argue that corporal punishment can work in very limited circumstances, but the trouble is that it is too easy to abuse. Lashing out at someone physically, when we are frustrated or angry, feels good. When we do things that make us feel better, we are more likely to make that thing a habit. Frustrated? Angry? Smack someone. Every person I know who argues that they try to use CP only under controlled situations, admits that they also will “smack” their kids in moments of frustration. I suspect the ratio of times the parent smacks their kid when they are mad to the number of times they spank under emotionally controlled situations increases over time. Too many parents who use CP always smack their kids when they are angry and too often for no good reason.

    I teach eighth graders, and although I always try to deal with discipline in a strong, but positive, way without anger, I do not always succeed. The trouble is that the quick fix (yelling, sending the kid to the office for minor annoyances, etc) always rears its head when I am stressed. And it never really works. The more difficult task of providing true positive discipline (non-violent) tends to fade to the background under stress. The only thing that saves me as a teacher is that I have decided that I will never yell in class. That I will never argue. That I will never belittle. I am not 100%, but the moment I decide it is OK to use the quick fix, I am that much closer to making it a habit when I am frustrated.

    CP is the quick fix for too many parents.

  • A 16-pound girdle? A 16-POUND girdle? As in a 7+ kilogram girdle? I thought the author had mispelled griddle, until I saw the part about straps and buckles.

    Dobson is a fucking liar. And a sissy. He gets hit by a piece of woman’s underclothes and blows it up into a 16-pound assault? What fucking wuss.

  • On the CP issue, I’d have to cautiously agree with Xeroman. Looking back on my life as a kid being raised by a single mom, corporal punishment was used very rarely. I’ll even admit that those few times it was used on me, I deserved it. Like the time I was 9 or 10 and beat up the babysitter mom got for us, and got a belt across the back-side. Or the time when I was 12 and “borrowed” the family car so I could drive to the library and got a hair brush broken across my hiney. There are some things that go beyone the pale and deserve at least some form of physical punishment (and I don’t think going to bed without dinner quite covers that).

  • That is one hell of a girdle. And the way he describes it, with it’s straps and buckles wrapping around him, makes it sound like an octopus. He probably wakes up at night sweating and with a racing heart after doing nightmare battle with the grasping girdle.

    His mother’s girdle.

    The one she disiplined him with.

    The one he thinks about all the time.

  • CP is just one tool in the box. Like any tool, it can be used as a weapon in the wrong hands or the wrong state of mind. That’s where the “assault” comes from: using CP as a weapon, either to hurt a child or to make the parent feel better. I may never use a certain tool—indeed, I may hope I never have to use a certain tool—but I don’t throw my screwdriver away because some people use them to break into homes. I just don’t break into homes.

    Being a good parent or not is not a matter of whether you spank your kids or not. If parenting where that black and white, we’d all be good at it.

    And Chris Kline, what is the difference between swatting your kid b/c you’re frustrated, and sending them to the principle’s office just because you’re in a bad mood? Seems to me there are larger sociological issues in mis-using the power of the state to enforce personal whimsy than in a relatively low-key physical encounter. The idea that we shape monsters out of a spanking or two is ludicrous. How many people on this site were never spanked? Are you all monsters? Of course not. And frankly you probably got more threats of physical assault from classmates than from parents.

    Violence is a part of life—a bad part, to be sure—but pretending we don’t need to prepare our children for the sharp edges of life and then sending them into the scissor factory of modern living is far worse. What happens when that same kid who is kicking and screaming in the supermarket because his or her parents have been brainwashed into thinking that they can’t pull the little bugger off the floor and give him a sharp, painful, and (gasp!) totally harmless swat ends up trying that routine on a robber or a cop or a boss? They won’t be ready for what comes next. I’d rather have the people who love me and brought me into the world prepare me for reality in a caring and deliberate way than be thrown into life thinking I have no boundaries.

    The parents who don’t love their kids, or who aren’t prepared to raise them and deal with life at the same time, will keep messing up their kids one way or another. Telling the good parents not to spank won’t change that—education, better living wages (so parents aren’t working two jobs and stressed by bills, and maybe can afford a counselor or parenting help), and strong-willed liberal leadership just might.

  • I have to wonder about the girdle thing, too. That’s about the same weight as a large bag of rice, and for someone to wear something that massive they’d have to be about the size of an NFL offensive lineman, or maybe King Kong. It would be interesting to see a photo of Mrs. Dobson. I would guess her proportions would be truly epic unless the whole 16 pound thing was a total exaggeration.

  • Corporal Punishment is wrong, in whatever the circumstance! Because it at least teaches the Kid, that violence is the answer, however limited the circumstance. It ensures that the kid will in the future always reserve violence as the last resort to win an argument, any argument. When violence becomes the method in which persuasion is ensured, then civic discourse becomes all just a pretense, for everything is backed by the threat of violence.

    I have seen a person beat up his friend because of a candy. Because that friend broke the family’s rules about the candy. This person went on to be grateful of the corporal punishment he got as a child, but I’ll never forget the violent spark in his personality, a spark that can become an all consuming fire. Thusly, I never trust personal testmonials as to the efficasy of corporal punishment.

  • Morbo I read this profile a few weeks ago after Jerilyn at TalkLeft posted a link to. I was as disturbed as you by the revelation concering Dobson’s childhood. There was a second passage which also grabbed my attention. I think it is as relavant understanding Dobson’s as is his childhood.

    ..In the mid-’80s, Meese asked Dobson to serve on a blue-ribbon commission on pornography. For the next 14 months, the preacher’s boy from the heartland immersed himself in the world of hard-core porn.

    Times Square was Beelzebub’s turf in the mid-’80s. Buildings bathed in the red glow of XXX signs, blocks of “adult bookstores,” and businesses offering sex aids and cellophane-wrapped magazines. Deciding they needed to sample their subject matter firsthand, members of the Meese Commission descended into the belly of the beast. Commission member James Dobson, middle-aged and beefy, ducked into one of the adult bookstores, which in other cities might offer visitors a private cubicle and 90 seconds of pornographic video. But in Times Square the fare was more, well, sumptuous: Customers pushed coins into a slot and a screen rolled up revealing an orgy. “Everything that is possible for heterosexuals, homosexuals, or lesbians to do was demonstrated a few feet from the viewers,” Dobson later wrote. “The booths from which these videos or live performers are viewed become filthy beyond description as the day progresses. Police investigators testified before our Commission that the stench is unbearable and that the floor becomes sticky with semen, urine, and saliva. Holes in the walls between the booths are often provided to permit male homosexuals to service one another.”

    It would be an understatement to say such spectacles were a mind-warping experience for Dobson, who had been switched, paddled, and pummeled for sassing back and forbidden from saying “geez”—a man whose courtship with his wife included passing notes in soda bottles. He was also exposed to other disturbing images: photographs of children molested and killed by pedophiles, videos depicting women being raped, slashed, and dismembered. Describing what he saw, Dobson wrote: “The offerings today feature beribboned 18- to 20-year-old women whose genitalia have been shaved to make them look like little girls, and men giving enemas or whippings to one another, and metal bars to hold a woman’s legs apart, and 3-foot rubber penises and photographs of women sipping ejaculate from champagne glasses. In one shop, which our staff visited on Times Square, there were 46 films for sale, which depicted women having intercourse or performing oral sex with different animals…pigs, dogs, donkeys, and horses. This is the world of pornography today, and I believe the public would rise up in wrath to condemn it if they knew of its prominence.”

  • I have to agree with Jianying; corporal punishment is a useless tool as far as raising a child (long-term goal) goes. My father used to whack me and all it “taught” me was to be devious — I continued to do the same things I was punished for, just made sure he wouldn’t catch me at it. It also “taught” me that, when someone (or something) wouldn’t obey, it was OK to whack it.

    It took my mother to really teach me. She’d say: “you’ve hurt me by your bad behaviour; I don’t want to look at you or talk to you”. And she’d stick with it, for 12- 24 hrs (a lifetime, for a child of 5). During that time, it didn’t matter whether I was outrageous or a model child — she would avoid my company like I was a leper. And I felt so remorseful, I’d never do it again, or anything else that I suspected might get me into the “icehouse”.

    She also explained, always, from the time I was little, why certain behaviours were not acceptable and she’d let me argue to the contrary. And she was inventive… When, losing an argument, I threatened to run away once (you don’t love me, you’ll be sorry), she offered to help me pack and gave me advice as to where I might want to go.

    People who use CP, do not allow arguments. They’re not teachers, they’re authoritarians and bullies. And they breed authoritarians and bullies.

  • Xeroman writes: Good parents should not be criticized if they choose to resort to corporal punishment. Some kids won’t respond to anything less.

    Xero, I find your arguments for corporal punishment quite weak, such as this one which basically blames the ostensibly recalcitrant and intractably stubborn child. Baloney! Libra’s description of his/her mother being “inventive” is spot on. My wife and I raised two wonderful kids (a girl and a boy) who were constantly being praised even by strangers for their stellar behavior, and we never EVER used corporal punishment, not one time. They’ve grown to be wonderful young adults (now 19 and 22) who had no trouble adjusting to the nasty world out there for lack of having been struck as children.

    Sometimes kids will push the limit, and you need to be able to enforce the rules.

    Would you imagine for a minute that our kids didn’t push their limits? Ridiculous! What I would say is that if one is going to eschew corporal punishment and still raise healthy and loving and cooperative children, it takes endless inventiveness and patience and consistency (for both parents). It isn’t easy, but neither is it as impossible as you make it seem. Corporal punishment is, to my mind, a symptom of failure on the part of a parent, even if only temporary. But if one doesn’t draw the line, then just when will CP stop? Just because parents lack the skill to parent without it, I don’t think that justifies being an apologist for CP.

    I had a brother who loved his children very much but was swayed by Ayatollah Dobson and his ilk. When his child did something wrong he would lovingly explain to them that they needed to be disciplined, then he’d whack them and then tell them that he loved them. How twisted is that?! Talk about setting them up for abusive relationships! He was trying to do what he believed to be right based on the BS he was fed by his spiritual mentors. He’d even do it when the kids wet their bed. It was so sad to see. But of course he’d never accept any criticism of his methods from his atheist brother.

    If you can’t parent kids without hitting them, don’t make up excuses for your failure, nor pretend that you won’t end up doing it in anger. And for sure don’t pretend that kids who are raised without CP turn out to be little monsters, which is clearly implied throughout your comments. I can tell you from direct experience that that isn’t true.

  • President Lindsay,
    I don’t think you really read my comments, or if you did you chose to ignore large portions of it. Maybe it is a topic too near and dear too your heart. Fair enough. As for Libra’s punishment, I find it to be odd and a more than a little twisted. You would prefer that a mother deny her 5 year old child her love? Make her love conditional? Hello, can we say candidate for attachment disorder! I find it deeply disturbing that Lindsay would think this a good example of parenting. If that is your alternative to corporal punishment then I feel sorry for your children. Talk about emotional abuse… no, not in your face screaming abuse, the subtle kind that undermines a child’s sense of security. It’s worse because it is so ambiguous and the child probably would not understand what exactly is hurting them and therefore become more confused. Why is punishment of any kind effective? Because it is somehow painful. You admit that this punishment was very effective – why was it? Because it hurt to be shut out by your mother. Am I the only one who sees that as wrong? You have a very simplistic view of this topic, and are unable or unwilling to see some of the nuances in this debate. Like every debate there is no clear solution, black and white, with us or against us. Yes, it is wrong to hurt another person. But I’d prefer a slap on the butt as opposed to some mental mind game that steals my sense of security at a sensitive age. In the end we both do something to make the child feel some sort of pain, be it emotional, mental or physical. Physical is more immediate and should not do lasting damage beyond a few moments of discomfort. What you describe could potentially take years for a therapist to unravel. As I stated quite clearly but you chose to ignore – the child and the punishment do not exist in a vacuum. There are other factors involved that will combine to form a well-adjusted adult, or an adult suffering from a host of issues.
    As for your brother – if he is swayed by Dobson then he is already screwed when it comes to parenting. Beating a kid that wets his bed? Crazy bullshit, and if you are implying that I support that kind of crap then you are way out of line. Finally:

    If you can’t parent kids without hitting them, don’t make up excuses for your failure, nor pretend that you won’t end up doing it in anger. And for sure don’t pretend that kids who are raised without CP turn out to be little monsters, which is clearly implied throughout your comments. I can tell you from direct experience that that isn’t true.

    Did you even read my comments?? Or did you rush to slap me down in your righteous anger without bothering to go over what I said? If not that, then you either can’t comprehend what I said or you are deliberately misstating my position. Unfortunately I think it is the latter – I’ve seen this style of debate used by wingnuts in the past regarding other issues. How sad. To demonstrate: Jianying states that every kid who is punished physically will become violent. See how that works? Easy. But it is not a truly accurate representation of what he meant. So if you are unwilling to approach a debate honestly, there is no point in beating this any further.

  • I realize that I was sloppy in the last post with who I was addressing. I apologize for the lack of clarity. At some points I was referring to the post by Libra, while the narrative was directed at Lindsay. My bad!

  • I appreciate everyone who has comment about corporal punishment on this post — whether you agree with me or not. It has been an interesting discussion. I would just add a few more thoughts about spanking:

    1. In no other human relationship is striking someone considered an acceptable way to express your displeasure. Do it to your spouse, and you can get arrested. I don’t think it makes much difference if you take the time to explain first why you are doing it — it’s still using a form of violence to achieve social conditioning. I don’t see it as acceptable.

    2. A swat on the behind hurts for a few seconds at best. As a parent, I find that denial of privileges is a better way to go becsause it’s a longer punishment that can be more meaningful. For example, a child who is grounded for an entire weekend might actually spend some of that time reflecting on his or her behavior and how if he or she had behaved differently, the sanction would not have been applied.

    3. Sooner or later your kids get too big to spank. Then what? If corporal punishment has been your primary method of discipline, you are going to have to shift to something like denial of privileges anyway. You might as well do that from the beginning and get your kids used to it.

    Finally this: I find that the biggest mistake parents make is not being consistent. If a sanction is applied, like grounding, both parents must stand together and back each other up. If Mom overrules Dad’s punishment (or vice versa), children will quickly learn Dad has no real power and do what they please. If one parent disagrees with a sanction, both should discuss that but without the child present. They can then decide on groundrules for next time. Never change the sanction in midstream. If a child is grounded for the entire weekend, do not reverse course and OK going out on Saturday night.

    God knows I am no expert. Mrs. Morbo and I have two children, 8 and 12, and we get a lot of comments on how well-behaved they are. We’ve never laid a hand on them. I know it can get difficult, especially as we enter the teenage years. I can only hope the system will use will see us through.

  • I speak from experience—I was raised as a Southern Baptist in Texas—when I say that I agree that fundies in general control their children by beating them. Corporal punishment doesn’t teach anything except hatred and violence—that whoever is bigger has the right to beat up anyone smaller. Please read this.

  • But the problem is that Fundies consider psychology and psychiatry to be the same as voodoo and won’t go near it. more than likely they’re too afraid to look into the dark abyss of their soul. — Dan (#2)

    What is it with these nutsos? I’m thinking of Dobson at the moment, but could as well refer to George Bush, probably any Neocon or TV preacher as well. They’re smart enough to know something’s wrong, yet they won’t seek help. — Ed Stephan (#4)

    “”.. A fifth member of the household, a stubborn little dachshund named Sigmund Freud, added to the chaos. When “Siggie” refused to go to bed one night, Dobson got out a belt and whacked him. The dog bared its teeth and Dobson gave it a second whack. “What developed next is impossible to describe,” writes Dobson ..” — further in Eileen Welsome’s 5280 article.

    Or was he just checking that God really did give Man “Dominion over All the Animals of the Earth and Sea” ?

  • Morbo raises some good points. He points out that it is not acceptable to hit people, and certainly not adults. Very true. He points out that kids do grow up and spanking becomes more problematic. I agree with both points. I would point out however that spanking is usually used in the early stages of childhood. Little ones have no impulse control, and few privelages to take away. They react best to immediate phyiscal discomfort.

    I think that the problem here is that people percieve my support for corporal punishment is a blanket one, and that I believe it is a quick fix that can be applied broadly across all situations. Let me try to clarify my viewpoint. Small children understand a firm swat on the backside better than they do emotional or mental duress. In fact, emotional duress can have longer reaching implications if there are other negative factors present in the household. Now I know some will have a knee jerk response to say “Oh, he likes only to pick on the small children!”… To which I respond by shaking my head and ignoring you for the idiot you are. My point is that it is when the child is very young that they develop the foundation of their personality. Will they be secure in relationships? Will they be violent? Will they be nice? Will they be trusting. The list goes on, but the essential building blocks are formed here. Corporal punishment if applied at an early age in a consistent and fair manner will not cause the child to be violent or untrusting. Now I know that seems counter-intuitive to many, but consider. If the parent is caring, consistent and fair, then the child will respect the adult. It’s about trust and the child feeling that it is in a secure environment, a consistent environment. Now I will not deny that spanking is a breach of trust. But sometimes a point must be made, and spanking is the less likely to do lasting emotional harm IMO. Again, this is younger children who haven’t developed their cognitive abilities fully yet. Once they are grown, then other methods come in to play to take over, but corporal punishment still remains as a rarely used back-up.

    In response to Katherine: I think the toxic environment in which you were raised teaches hatred and violence, not corporal punishment on its own. I would point out that I was raised by a single mother who used a length of vulcanized rubber hose as long as her arm to whip me for transgressions. Obviously not a good situation, and not a good example of how to raise a child. She did it out of anger when I did something wrong or defied her, and so I tried not to do either. Now I’m certainly not saying that it was right or good! I just want to point out that I am not a violent person, nor hateful. Blaming bad kids on corporal punishment is as simplistic and wrong as blaming bad kids on lack of it. I do think that corporal punishment when used at the right time in the right way can instil respect for elders in the young. It is a powerful tool in shaping a child.

    Oh, I just want to emphasize again that some of the creative emotional punishments that parents devise are far more damaging. There are those who look on in disgust at those adults who use their greater size and strength to hurt a child… well I look on in disgust at those adults who use their superior cognitive abilities to twist and manipulate children in sometimes exceptionally cruel ways. Look at the research on attachment disorders for starters. Playing games with the child’s emotional security by denying love is just plain vicious in my opinion. A child should never be made to feel that their parents don’t love them if they do something wrong. Conditional love can lead to feelings of insecurity and resentment, which can lead to violence. Something to think about. Raising children is not easy, and with today’s world being like it is it sure the hell is a whole lot harder.
    .

  • Dobson is a classic example of who John Dean in his book “Conservative’s Without Conscience” describes as “authoritarian”.

  • Re: CP discussion. Alice Miller has written extensively and , I think, persuasively on the subject. The main reason CP is destructive and ineffective is that by its nature, it humiliates the child. It is an unfair fight, both physically and emotionally, so the child experiences it as a shaming experience. When we are humiliated, we are often so emotional, we are unable to take in any information, like the reason for the punishment or the intended lesson. What happens is the shame of being beaten or hit is suppressed by the child at the time, and often is expressed in adult life in other seemingly unrelated ways.

    Miller wrote about how humiliated children will often so wish to escape their humiliation, they identify with agressors. They wish to leave behind the dreaded feeling of powerlessness and shame, even if it means they target someone else as a victim.

  • “Good parents can use corporal punishment effectively, while bad parents use it in the worst way possible.”

    Comment by Xeroman

    I mostly concur. One point you missed (which may be debatable) is that corporal punishment, even if competently applied, is largely ineffective after about the age of 6. At that point, they would rather take a couple of whacks-on-the-butt than lose video-game previleges for a couple of weeks.

  • The corporal punishment argument is interesting. In my short humble opinion – it is an “order of magnitude” thing or – in other words – a matter of degree. I don’t think an occasional whack on the bottom will turn a kid into the next Charlie Manson.

    Crossing the line can really screw up a kid – and it is difficult to know where that line is. It is different for each kid – given his/her personality. So if used at all – it should probably used very sparingly.

    As an earlier poster mentioned – there are mental games that parents can play that can be very effective or devastating to a kid – depending upon what the parent is attempting to achieve.

    Anyway, as a few posters mentioned, what irks me about Dobson ( and all of the North American Fundamentalists ) is their insistance on pushing their “way” on others.

    Recently Merck came out with a vaccine to help ward off cervical cancer by controlling the HPV virus. Since this virus can be spread through sex – The Focus on the Family felt they had to “weigh in” as to whether or not this treatment was “okay.”

    They ultimately said that it was “okay” – but the bigger point is “Who The Fuck Do These People Think They Are To Decide Whether or Not A Woman Protect Herself From Cancer?”

    I have no problem with Dobson and his crew saying to someone “this is how we live and this is why – would you like to join us?”

    But to say “this is how we live and you MUST join us …” is total bullshit.

  • I’ve often wondered why Dobson goes on crusades against gay people claiming they have an agenda to take over America and destroy our way of life. I used to listen to his programs years ago because they would usually be very uplifting and about loving children, etc. Then all of a sudden he would go on these tirades against gays or liberals or feminists and how they had a plan to destroy America and must be stopped. At those times it was obvious that he was suffering from some mental illness, and unfortunately the others on his show would agree with him (enabling his mania) when they must have been thinking, “Jim, buddy, you’ve just gone off the deep end there. Switch to decaf or something.”

    I wondered if his hatred of gays stemmed from a homosexual encounter or several and his own disgust with himself for engaging in them. His story about trying to bully someone he considered a “sissy” and getting the hell beat out him by that sissy adds another possibility: His father may have berated him or teased him about losing to someone seen as effeminate. Possibly his mother, too. Dobson may be trying to relive that fight only defeating the sissy this time and so he launches a crusade against gay people thinking that if he can defeat them he corrected his own loss at the hands of one of them. If he can correct what his father (and or mother) saw as a failure he can rise in his departed father’s estimation.

  • I dont’ usually post here but I do have something to say on this topic. I’m raising two children–very well, apparently, according to the reports I hear back from strangers, teachers, waiters etc…–in my opinion corporal punishment is never necessary. I don’t doubt that there are many families where, at some late stage (when the child is five-15) corporal punishment may seem like an answer, and even may seem like the only answer. I’d ask–where were those parents and their parenting skills when the child was pre-verbal? where were those parents and their parenting skills when the child looked to you for everything–every bit of love, instruction, praise, comfort, companionship? I’ve seen plenty of not very good parents who, frustrated with the non verbal part of parenting, lashed out on a regular basis and thought that was normal. They used violence as a way of getting attention (shouting, hitting, pinching) at a time when the child was simply learning how to interact with the world around him. By the time the child is old enough to “reason” with a person who habitually resorts to violence or to authoritarian demands finds that they have no words to deal with their child and they must still resort to violence, demands, threats and punishment.

    A loved child, a respected child, simply *never* needs physical correction. I have no doubt that people like xeroman have had plenty of experience that goes the other way with some child at some time. But I’d say that there is a (to a child) lifetime of insult, neglect, and abuse that underlies the defiance and rudeness that the parent then uses to justify their own violent impulses.

    This isn’t a liberal or conservative divide–if anything its a divide between those who had great parenting themselves, and can pass it on to their children, and those who had lousy parenting and are acting out their own rage on their own children.

    aimai

  • Has anyone ever heard an animal howl in pain? Has anyone ever heard lobsters scream as their boiled to death in your summer cottage kitchen? Has anyone ever watched a man beat his dog “to teach him obedience” too afraid to stop him?

    I’m no vegan but one just doesn’t do those things. Anyone with any sense of justice, hell, common decency, would recoil at Dobson’s “dog fight”. I know I do.

    P.S. What’s this about Bush’s frogs and Frist cats? WHO ARE THESE PEOPLE?!

  • Xeroman says: The problem is not corporal punishment, but deadbeat parents who beat their kids because they have no impulse control.

     
    Uh, wrong. The problem is corporeal punishment. Do a little research. All research in this area shows that corporeal punishment has a negative effect fo a child’s development. There is no research indicating the opposite is true.

     
    The problem is that 70% of US parents don’t believe, or even know about, the research.

  • Thank you, Mrs. Mulwray. Alice Miller has it exactly right.

    There are no shades of gray when it comes to corporal punishment. It involves an adult using his or her physical power over a smaller being. No, Xeroman (who misspelled my name), corporal punishment does not necessarily produce a hateful, violent person. But it does inflict psychic, emotional, and relationship wounds on the children who are its targets, and on top of that, some of those children may grow up to be abusive, violent adults because that is what they were taught by example.

    Why are Americans so violent? It is in part because adults have traditionally taught children that issues around “misbehavior” (which is in the eye of the beholder and is often defined without regard to children’s developmental stages) are to be settled by physical violence, starting in the home. Many of these same adults have traditionally given their children toy guns to play with. What are real guns used for? Killing. Adults who give their children toy guns are then tacitly saying that it’s okay to play at killing other human beings.

    Children learn what adults teach them.

  • Xeroman,

    It’s hard to tell which of my comments you found most offensive since you mixed up your criticism with me and Libra, but please don’t call me a wingnut! Just to clarify, I too thought Libra’s mindgames to be pretty twisted, I was only referring to her idea that one has to be inventive if one is going to avoid CP. I didn’t mean to imply that I agree with where her inventiveness took her.

    I won’t bother to reply to your ad hominem disparagement, since I know not to whom it was directed, me or Libra. Suffice it to say that Morbo perhaps made some points better and at the same time less pointedly than I did. His point about consistency is crucial, from the very earliest ages. Withdrawing privileges, moreover, works just fine for little kids, certainly from at least the age before which any sane parent would ever consider CP. It seems, from the obviously heartfelt comments throughout this thread, that if CP is a tool that’s conscionable to use, at best it would be utilized between about 2 or 3 and maybe ten? If so, withdrawing privileges and other inventive but non-psychologically damaging options can do the trick, no need for CP at all. And there are plenty of arguments here already which pretty convincingly point out the weaknesses of CP.

    And yes, my brother is off the deep end.

    Oh, Morbo, if you’ve gotten to 8 and 12 without CP, I would bet you’re over the hump. By now your kids would have become accustomed to non-CP discipline and understand that there are consequences to bad behavior that don’t involve getting whacked. My congratulations for having the creativity and self-discipline and patience to live up to your non-CP principles. Having gone through this process all the way, I know very well that it’s not always easy, but ultimately you’ll feel plenty good about it and, more importantly, when your kids grow up they’ll both appreciate your methods and most likely strive to do the same if they have kids later. Still pretty hard to do in these days when most of us were raised with CP (yes, without becoming psycopaths) and clearly it’s still the prevalent mode. Personally I can’t imagine hitting my kids, at any age. It would have been painful for both of us.

  • This informative story, sad as it is, is so typical that it’s the rule not the exception.

    Almost every single person who is a right wing religious conservative has the same story. They grow up in a home where their familial caretakers never truly love them and/or live vicariously through them. They get physically and mentally abused on a regular basis. The parents are overly strict but undisciplined. The child suffers and simply adopts the behaviors of the parent and wants to do to everyone else what their own parents did to them.

    If you stop the cycle of child abuse, you actually put a dagger into right wing religion for all generations to come. That’s how important it is to throw the book at people who abuse children (and animals too.)

  • Discussing corporal punishment is all good and fine, but I think it misses the point. It’s a digression meant to obscure the more pressing issues with Dobson.

    What I find the main issue is that from his description, Dobson spent his entire childhood completely engulfed in a groundswell of absurdly complicated and totally unreasonable rules created and enforced by irrationally bombastic and dictatorial parents.

    Having mentally survived in that kind of condition for long, let alone an entire childhood, it’s a wonder Dobson is functional at all. Often much worse than any physical abuse, corporal punishment or not, is the psychological abuse inflicted on kids whose parents are irrationally authoritarian, taking their “parenting” to extremes that cause the child to act out in some kind of “extreme” later in life, whether it’s serial killing, rampant nymphomania, uncontrollable alcoholism, becoming a pimp, starting a cult, or becoming a fundamentalist fanatic.

    My mom suffered through a childhood of bizarre, ritualistic, “it’s for your own good”, set of rules that would make the Warden at the strictest prison shudder. Looked at objectively, the Encyclopedia Britannica volumes of rules and regulations she was forced to live by as a child were arbitrary and pointless; they were created more to feed the egos of her parents than to raise a good person. For instance, my mom was forced to live in a small room in the attic. She was not allowed down to visit guests if they had a male child near her age (remember, this was her entire childhood, ages 3-18). If it was a dinner, she had to prepare the meal, serve it, then head back up to her room. It was all to keep her “pure”, to ensure she wasn’t “tempted” by Satan to carnal desire. WTF?

    It took her 40 years to understand where her anger and poor life skills stemmed from. She’ll never solve them mind you, it took 4 decades to just understand where they came from at all. She was able to control the craziness such horrible parenting created in her personality and personal life. The consequences of piss poor parenting or zealous, authoritarian over-parenting manifest differently and uniquely in every person. Dobson’s manifestation is just one style of endgame.

  • And people actually look up to this nut, buy his books, listen to his babble, and think he has all the answers. What a psycho!!!!!! I can tell you one thing more too. The reason the world, including this nation, has become more violent is because of criminal bullies like Bush and Dobson who wrap themselves up in the flag, hold out the Christian cross and preach about values while at the same time endorsing hate worldwide!!!

  • Corporal punishment is, to my mind, a symptom of failure on the part of a parent, even if only temporary. But if one doesn’t draw the line, then just when will CP stop? Just because parents lack the skill to parent without it, I don’t think that justifies being an apologist for CP.

    -PL

    Frankly I think most posters on this thread are correct, but missing the others’ points regarding CP. President Lindsay’s comment here is a good example. The slippery-slope argument works just as well for mental and emotional punishment, and “punishment” can be abuse whenever it is taken too far or done inconsistently. Parents who abuse–no matter what form the abuse takes–risk permanently damaging children. It seems like everyone here cares deeply about their children and how to raise them. Good! I doubt any of you are doing a bad job, so the argument sounds a little ridiculous after a point.

    Corporal Punishment is wrong, in whatever the circumstance! Because it at least teaches the Kid, that violence is the answer, however limited the circumstance. It ensures that the kid will in the future always reserve violence as the last resort to win an argument, any argument.

    -Jianying

    Come on. First of all, violence is the answer, sometimes. What would you do if someone broke into your home and attacked your children? Reason with them? Explain how it hurts you to see this? Of course not. Xeroman’s entire point, if I’m reading it correctly, is that punishment hurts children, that’s the entire point. Pretending that hurting children emotionally or mentally is somehow superior (and guilt-free) is silly and short-sighted. I know plently of people who were never beaten but who have a ton of issues because their dad never showed them love and their mom was conditional about it (got a B? I don’t love kids who don’t get A’s, etc.). The point is, you take any punishment “too far” and it’s abuse–no matter what form it takes.

  • “The reason the world, including this nation, has become more violent is because of criminal bullies like Bush and Dobson who wrap themselves up in the flag, hold out the Christian cross and preach about values while at the same time endorsing hate worldwide!!! “

    Which is why I am often reluctant to let people know that I am a practicing Christian. Loonies such as Dobson and Bush tar us all with their behavior.

  • A SIXTEEN POUND girdle? Hot dog, his mama must have been built like a double-wide trailer. Dang.

  • I’m not a big fan of CP; I still carry the wedge-shaped scars on the backs of my legs from the “belt.” A can’t think of a single instance where beatings brought me to “acceptable” behavior. Actually, the whippings made me more defiant because it seemed to me that if I complied with my parents’ rules under those circumstances, I was just rewarding their bad behavior.

    However, I raised five of my own children, and although I never spanked any of them after the age of three, I whipped a couple of them before that because I felt that their behavior put them in danger. One of them kept trying to run out into traffic, and the other one played with fire every chance he got. I couldn’t keep a constant eye on them, they were too young to reason with, and I needed a quick fix.

    In these cases, the spankings were effective, and my sons stopped the behaviors. However, I think the spankings worked because my boys had never been spanked before and because they were young.

    I think that CP is psychologically damaging to children, but I’m not necessarily against it in every case. I’d rather my children grew up with some issues they need to resolve, than not grow up at all.

  • I knew Dobby was a sicko, but what kind of nut weighs his mom’s girdles?

  • I think CP is being thrown around as a “last chance” for “bad” kids. Some even believe that CP is ok as a punishment.

    I’m going to chime in on the side that says it is never right unless the child has been allowed to grow up defiant. And in this case military school is probably to only way a child will learn respect for others. But a parent should never use CP on their child, There are so many other ways to put down negative behavior.

    CP is really for the angry parent only. It does nothing to help the child and anly acts as a release for the parent.

    Dr. Dobson’s childhood was a cakewalk compared to me and my sibilings youth. It never helped us… never. I will never use CP on my child AND I avoid mental abuse at all costs.

    It is a funny thing though. My son is a beautiful, respectful child that is completely polite and happy, but some of his friends are real handfuls. They run roughshod over their parents. But every one of the “bad” kids treats me with respect. The trick is to not take sh!t from them. Treat them fairly, always be honest and ignore them when they are acting out to het your attention.

    It is really quite simple.

  • Correct me if I’m wrong, but isn’t Dobson the one whose entry into the fundamentalist world was his books defending corporal punishment as a good way for Christians to raise their children?

    As far as a sixteen pound girdle…do any of you bowl? While this may seem an odd digression it really isn’t. Sixteen pounds is the maximum weight a bowling ball can be for any game you bowl to be eligible for official recognition and of course that makes it the max any manufacturer will make a ball. Lots of grown men don’t use a sixteen pound ball. I switched to one fairly young and after working some construction work when I was young that involved lifting lots of things much heavier than that I could almost juggle them. It got interesting reactions and no one who I handed one of my bowling balls to after tossing them a bit underestimated what sixteen pounds felt like. So again I say…A sixteen pound girdle???

  • I spanked my three kids with the exact limits that xeroman stated. Today they are 24 (B) ,24(G), and 20(B). Contrary to some people’s beliefs I did not spank from frustration. I did not allow myself to and made it clear to them that doing so represented me losing control if it ever happened. I’m female, and was a single parent for over 13 years. My kids understood clearly why they were spanked. And when they towered over me years later, at 15 or 16, raising their hand to me may have been thought of, but it didn’t happen. It was clear, I was the parent. I used both words and corporal punishment, all of my kids were examplary students in schools, one is finishing a master’s degree this summer and is married, one is in William and Mary Law school second year, one is a junior at Old Dominion University. They are not only achievers, but compassionate people. And unlike many of my female friends who were single and took the “I can’t hit my kids” high road, I have an honest relationship with my children. Most of my friends who took that high road had boys especially who eventually chose to take power over the household. Call me what you like. Psychoanalyze till your hearts content, but for me, especially for my oldest boy, that paddle kept things clear when nothing else would, and he’ll tell you himself it was needed.
    P.S. I have a master’s degree in psychology and a hell of a lot of personal conseling behind me. Most things in life I’m still not sure of and guilt hits me hard. But in this case, I know I did the right thing.
    Trisha

  • Hitting people is wrong. It messes people up. It messes children up. Check out stoptherod dot net and scroll to the bottom and read up on the piles of research showing how hitting children can mess them up for LIFE. Oh, I know, there will always be adults who excuse the hitting by saying if you do it just this way, or are in a certain mood when you hit, it’s alright. No, it isn’t alright, hitting someone hurts them and makes them angry no matter which part of the body is hit or what you hit them with or if you’re happy or mad or spaced-out or whatever.

    Yes, Dobson is extremely messed up. He is very sick and to cover up he tries to get everyone else in the world into his sickness. And maybe so he won’t feel so alone in his sickness, or so afraid of the world attacking him for his offensive views.

    Jim S you are right that Dobson got his entry into fame and fundamentalist fortune from writing books promoting beating children. With objects, no less, like belts and wooden boards. Starting at 15 months of age. Why 15 months? Because that’s when Dobson’s wife decided to start whamming the little Dobson children. The 2 books that brought him started in his sicko career are “Dare to Discipline” and “The Strong-Willed Child”. In “The Strong-Willed Child” he describes right in the beginning of the book, brutally whipping his little dachshund with a belt, until the poor animal was beaten into the submission Dobson required of him.

    I don’t hit my child, who is very gentle, affectionate, who says every day “I love you”. Who could ever hurt a little child? There are better ways to teach children right from wrong, like talking and being a good example.

  • In response to y’all’s wonderment at a 16-pound girdle. Girdle is an old-fashioned word for what we generally call a griddle. I think it has Scottish origins and is a term used in the Appalachians. It was probably cast iron and consequently hurt like hell. Otherwise I can’t comment on the debate. I decided never to use corporal punishment and then found myself spanking my kids for running out into the street. I guess I am some kind of a crappy mom. cheers

  • yo xero.

    Haven’t read all the replies but need to put in my 2 cents. Corporal punishment is aggression, always against a weaker entity. It teaches that, when all else fails (by whose definition?), the strongest/baddest is Right, the weaker then look for even weaker to punish. Bad lesson.

    Problem kids? Keep talking to them, it’s getting through whether you realise it or not. What counts in the end is if you give up or not.. Don’t. Regardless, their lives eventually become THEIR choice.

    To paraphrase:

    Aggression is the easiest avenue for the inarticulate.

  • Hey Li’l Jimmie, here’s how to straighten yourself out:

    Dig up your mama’s corpse. Take her skull, fuck her eye sockets, and then crush it with a sledgehammer.

    After this cleansing ritual, you’ll SHUT THE FUCK UP AND STAY OUT OF OTHER PEOPLE’S LIVES!

  • And the guy’s from Oklahoma too. Home of wacked out, white-trash, uneducated, cracker fundamentalistm.

    This also explains a lot. Dobson is essentially a product of heartland, hyper-red state, fundy America.

    In short, he’s comes from the dregs of white American society, with all of its pathology, fucked up religion, and socially-acceptable dsyfunction that passes for normal.

    God (and I mean that quite literally) help us all that this fucked up piece of fundy shit has been turned loose on the American land and that he commands the political influence that he does!!!

  • Make no mistake:

    Dobson has some real BIG unresolved psychological issues. For a man that is supposedly some sort of psychological expert, the man seems to have done very little work on his own self.

    I mean, the man has many marks of a dysfunctional upbrining: A fundamentalist Christian upbring; a hyper-perfectionism born of a warped, and some would say heretical, Christian theology (if he is actually now without sin, then he is a greater man than the Apostle Paul, who, late in his life, called himself the “chief of sinners”), a father that was an overbearing, over-strict, and over-judgmental ogre (it’s telling that he didn’t have the self confidence to write a book while his father was still alive–to me, that tells me his father failed to instill in him self-confidence and probably, instead, instilled in him a hyper-self critical and doubt-filled nature born of perfectionsim), etc.

    And what’s amazing is Dobson is so DELUSIONAL, he cannot see that many of they ways that he he was raised were unhealthy and left him with scars and unresolved issues.

    I mean, the description of the porn he subjected himself to in the name of researching the issue of pornography, is telling in and of itself. Who, in his right mind, Christian or non-Christian, would continue to watch that shit. It’s like the sick voyeurism of a bad traffic wreck where you can’t bear to look away as you are driving by.

    I think Dobson is a sick, sick, sick man who, like the Pharasees that killed Jesus, is in deep, deep denial and delusion such that he cannot see how fucked up he is. Instead, he works out his own shit by shitting over a whole lot of other people, and he does it all in the name of God and Jesus Christ.

    I come from a Christian background and for much of my life, I even considered myself a Chrisitan. However, often during this “Christian existence” of mine, I’d look at Dobson and think to myself that something wasn’t right about him . . . from the perspective of Christianity as I then and still understand it. The article about him does nothing but confirm and provide more solid clues regarding my intuitive sense of the guy’s pathology.

    When he championed psychopathic liar and killer Ollie North on his show as some sort of hero, I really began to see Dobson as a fraud and as a menace.

    The latest thing I’ve read is that the telcos are going to try to enlist his organization in favor of defeating “net neutrality” . . . all , in the name of giving parents control over pornographic content over the internet.

    Look at Dobson and you will see a hint of the seeds of what grow into fascistic personalities.

    Dobson is a fascist. Dobson is also a spiritual fraud. The sad thing is that he holds a warped and EVIL sway over so many deluded and sheep-like minds.

  • ESCAPE FROM FREEDOM, Erich Fromm, 1941. Read it and understand. “The horror.”

  • It is my opinion that most Jesusistani zealots are screeching hatred of others because of some personal demons they don’t know how to either exorcise or suppress. And the number of them that abuse children tends to reinforce my belief.

  • Here’s what the problem with CP is: It’s not because of the “violence”, it’s because of the sexual aspect of it. CP is a sexual violation. How? you say? How can it be sexual if you do it with their clothes on, with them bending over something, or simply whip them on their back? It is a violation of intimacy, of personal space, of one’s body, which is sacred. It is a rape. With it comes humiliation, shame, and fear. And that is why it works and that is why it shouldn’t ever be practiced under any circumstances in any society that pretends to be civilized. The end. Amen.

  • As incredible as it seems, 16-pound girdles did exist during Dobson’s childhood. In fact, they were common! They were the transitional stage between full corsets and the “modern” elastic panty girdles women wore 40-odd years ago when I was a “future woman.”

    Just as Victorian and Edwardian women wouldn’t be caught dead outside their boudoirs without their corsets, their daughters wouldn’t dream of leaving the house without their girdles once the brief “flapper” era of the 20s had passed.

    As late as the mid-60s, the Sears catalog advertised things that looked like Medieval torture devices, with heavy boning (sometimes made of spring steel like the underwire in a modern bra, only heavier), laces all over the place, great big garters, etc. The worst of those things weren’t just girdles; they were cages. (“Heavy-duty” girdles are still used for some back problems and are available at medical supply stores, but of course they’re now made of much lighter “space age” materials!)

    “Ladies of a certain age” (including former flappers) who had no muscle tone at all left in their abdomens and lower backs after having a number of children and relying on “hardware” to keep their “midriff bulges” absolutely out of sight between pregnancies sometimes needed all that hardware just to keep themselves upright in later life as a result, and they were the main customers.

    Oh, dearie me! We simply couldn’t allow anyone to see us looking as if we’ve ever been in the family way, it would be far too embarrassing, never mind that we’re being followed around by a flock of children who look just like us! (Never mind that we’ll just about flop over like a chicken’s neck when we get old……….)

    I have to think that Dobson’s mom must have been one of those literally strait-laced women.

    (In fact, the expression “strait-laced” originated with the tight corset; “strait” means “tight” or “narrow,” as in Gibraltar and a proper lady’s waist. “Straight-laced” is a modern corruption. Conversely, an immoral “loose woman” was literally that; she didn’t lace up her stays, but went around “undone.” End of language lesson. We now return you to your regularly scheduled underwear lesson already in progress.)

    It wasn’t just the “grandmas” who went in for the industrial-strength underwear. A lot of women my mom’s age and a few years older wore heavy girdles in order to get the “hourglass figure” that became popular with Dior’s “New Look” etc. soon after WWII (once rubber wasn’t being rationed any more) and stayed in fashion all the way through the days of Marilyn Monroe, up until the British “Mod” fashion invasion in the mid-60s.

    Even the non-boned, non-laced girdles were pretty horrible. (Imagine wearing an old-fashioned rubber bathing cap around your middle for 16 hours. You get the idea.) The first TV commercial for the Playtex Living Girdle wasn’t exaggerating a bit when it showed a politician’s wife bravely attempting to smile at the crowd while saying to her husband through gritted teeth, “My girdle is killing me!”

    Yes, girdles did get lighter in weight and less uncomfortable as elastic fabrics improved, but they’re still not fun.

    It wasn’t all that long ago that our moms weren’t the only ones who wore girdles of some sort. Even as late as my high school years in the late 60s, when pantyhose were just coming onto the scene, a lot of girls my age, even the skinny ones, wore girdles (lightweight nothin’-to-’em ones on the order of “training bras,” but still!) to school every day. (My mom made me wear a garter belt, which I thought was cheesy.)

    So much for a fashion lesson from a going-on-middle-aged woman who runs around in men’s jeans and oversized T-shirts most of the time and wears loose-fitting dresses with ankle-length skirts on those rare occasions when she has to get dressed up and “play girl,” so she can wear knee-highs and not have to deal with those awful crotch-rotting pantyhose – which, incidentally, shouldn’t be thrown at kids except in certain specific circumstances (see end of post)! (Tying up consenting adults is a whole ‘nother story. —-great big grin—-)

    As for hitting kids………I’ve never been able understand that. We figured out long ago that hitting young animals generally makes them either mean or fearful. Why can’t we figure out that hitting young human animals does exactly the same thing?

    My parents spanked me and my 3 younger siblings sometimes when we were kids, and to hell with “it only hurts for a minute.” It was humiliating and I would cry uncontrollably for hours (a reaction that kept happening for years after I’d decided I was too big to cry when I skinned my knee). I was afraid of my parents until I was about 40 as a result, and at 53 I’ve never really forgiven them – I still get angry about it occasionally (like right now while I’m writing this). I swore to myself that I would never hit a child of mine.

    I did slap my son’s hand exactly once in his life, when he was about 2-1/2 and did something that in retrospect was harmless and very creative and would have been hilarious in almost any other context, but I was in a general state of complete stress-out from having been cooped up in a sporadically air-conditioned hotel room with a litle kid for two weeks waiting to move into our new house. He screamed, I broke down in tears, and we spent the next half hour curled up together in a miserable ball on the floor.

    I think he forgot about it long ago, but 20 years later I still haven’t forgiven myself for it. And he’s grown into a wonderful, loving, responsible young man who’s currently taking time off from college to get some work experience and try to decide whether he wants so stay with his current major or go for something else. His dad and I couldn’t be prouder.

    In conclusion:

    Don’t wear a girdle. They’re terrible for your health in addition to being ridiculously expensive. Horsing around in the back yard with your kids is a lot more comfortable and better for you than wearing one of those Medieval contraptions, and the money would be much better spent taking your kids to Chuck E. Cheese anyway. Don’t hit your kids. And don’t throw underwear at them unless you’re having a fair-and-square officially declared “laundry fight” (and even then, no throwing heavy things like blue jeans and sneakers – they hurt)!

  • OK, maybe 16 pounds is a bit on the heavy side. But I stand behind the rest of what I wrote.

  • And I’m not even going to mention the 50-plus-pound hoop skirts, panniers, and farthingales women used to wear waybackinthewayback!

    Oops, too late, and I’m getting punchy (well, it is after 4:30 am!). Good night, or good morning if you prefer…………..

  • If you look it up on wikipedia, a girdle is a Scottish griddle – I have heard older people still call a griddle a girdle. But I suppose its possible that a girdle could weigh 16 pounds.

  • The thing is, what I was getting at is that as adults a lot of like to be tied up and/or spanked, whipped, etc in a consensual way. To force that on a kid, and really, it’s not that far of a stretch to compare bdsm and traditional corporal punishment, is like rape versus consensual sex. you don’t have to touch someone’s genitals to invade the security of one’s identity and body.

  • I agree…16 lbs.? C’mon – he is exaggerating AND lying – he has to make it sound worse than it was and abhorrent to himto make you feel sorry for him but what comes through loud and clear is that he LIKED it and that it probably is something that he either now wears in private or fantasizes about for satisfaction. He LOVED being on the Meese porn squad. These people are hypocrites, plain and simple.

  • Hey, I got spanked a few times as a child, and every time it happened, I deserved it.
    Fortunately, my parents knew enought to not hit me every time they got mad…

  • I have a friend who raised her child “by the book.” If it was in the book, it was good. If it wasn’t in the book, she didn’t have to abide by it. “I’m doing EVERYTHING just the way the book says!”

    To keep up her social life, she shuttled her child, practically ofrom birth, among the four couples who made up the “current family,” along with the two ex-husbands of her mother and an assortment of extended family, all of whom had “a right to a relationship” with her child. Golden Child was being passed around like a puu-puu platter.

    Almost immediately I noticed that Golden Child was suffering from child-star syndrome–a jaded indifference to personal interaction (unless you brought presents) and a tendency to misbehave when no presents were indicated. Getting sent to stand in the corner at DAYCARE is not a personality defect in a child, but that’s how my friend chooses to see her child.

    Her mom said Golden Child was just stubborn and wanted her own way all the time.

    I lost her friendship when I pointed out that maybe all Golden Child wanted was for her parents to to put their social life second and her first. Which I think is normal for a five-year-old.

    But no: my friend “has to have a life!” So Golden Child is told in sing-songy parent talk that “Mommy and Daddy are having an ADULT party and you’re going to go visit Granpa Joe for the weekend.” And believe me, NOTHING gets in the way of my friend’s adult parties.

  • whoa ! This one struck some nerves. I used to read Dobson and I thought he was sane. However, I have noticed a slow steady slide towards the whacko ! A classic case of early childhood girdle trauma—happens every time.

    CP ? May occaisionally yield the intended results (like driving a nail with a rock) but it may also yield undesireable or unpredictible outcomes. I mean, if you bend the nail, you can’t pull it out and start over with a rock and individual children are irreplaceable, aren’t they–very fragile and precious. Love works better on children and hammers work better on nails. I heard a rumor that some guy named Jesus had some advise about the value of love but I suppose more people follow the girdle commandments, huh ?

    My dog taught me about CP. I would yell and rage and occaisionally kick it if I got excited enough. I taught one to cower and pee on it self and another to shit all over me and my furniture. And then I figured it out (good dog). All they really understood while I was raging was that I was a mad as hell maniac and that they were in grave danger. See Gary Larson joke “What Dogs hear”………..blah, blah, blah, blah, Fido, blah blah blah for additional clarification on child rearing. The same principle applies to teenagers.

    Anyway, I tried more love ( I already loved them–I just got really pissed off when they ate my Lazyboy) and in lieu of raging I just used my deepest God talking to Moses voice and posture–like smacking a rolled up newspaper on my hand to let them know eating furniture was wholly unacceptable. Then, they loved me and would do all kinds of neat tricks just to please me except of course they wouldn’t fetch my rolled up newspaper for some reason.

    Anyway, sometime later, my wife and I raised two sons, and with only a few minor exceptions, we never had to resort to CP because 1) we could communicate with them without assaulting them physically and 2) we made it very clear to them that we loved them and would do anything for them (if appropriate). And guess what, they loved us and went out of their way to please us. I, know you are amazed but my kids never once tried to eat my furniture-didn’t even look at it sidways.

  • One of the *great* things about humans is how they always know what’s best for other people’s children! So helpful! Especially when they don’t have any, or only have one and still believe theirs is representative of all kids. And why do they know this? “Common sense.” “It was good enough for me.” “I read a book.” “My friends and family told me.” “I follow my instincts.”

    Of course, in the end we do the best we can, which is often not so great. However, it is never a simple one-size-fits-all process. Everybody wants to make this a black or white thing between “setting limits” and the derided “being your kids’ buddy,” but there is a middle ground where we set limits AND show respect.

    Bottom line is that parents and kids often find themselves in a power struggle and neither wants to lose. Parents, whether through violence, the “cold shoulder” or demeaning/abusive words, are always putting their child in his or her place by following the path of least resistence: Abuse does usually get short-term results, but in exchange for longterm pain for the child, who usually just turns their defiance inward onto themselves (expressed in the form of addiction) or outwards in secret (and abusing animals, a la Dobson or Dubya, is one of the classics.).

    And the bottom line? The results of American child-rearing are not so good. We have one of the highest rates of incarceration in the world, and how many of us struggle with an addiction or three?

    Instead of being so arrogant that we know “in our gut” what’s best for our kids AND our neighbors’, maybe we ought to be more reflective and studious in how we come to these decisions. After all, what could be more important?

    For those wanting a positive path to discipline, there are lots of good books out there (i.e., “When Your Kid Pushes Your Buttons”). For those who want tips on how to scare your children, you can read Dobson or watch any Black stand-up comic.

    Personally, I find reading or talking about parenting very unnatural and difficult. It involves examing our behavior in the light of day, which is not always easy to look at. But I’m going to keep trying to do it because I learn something everytime.

  • What the hell! Are you really in favor of the sixties “if it feels good do it” thing ore what. Any moral compass here? I’m no christian but if you don’t have rules……. If you were chained naked to the Washington monument, without the rule of law, do you really think you would be alive after 24 hours? Of course not!

    You stupid cunts.

  • spanked my three kids with the exact limits that xeroman stated. Today they are 24 (B) ,24(G), and 20(B). Contrary to some people’s beliefs I did not spank from frustration. I did not allow myself to and made it clear to them that doing so represented me losing control if it ever happened. I’m female, and was a single parent for over 13 years. My kids understood clearly why they were spanked. And when they towered over me years later, at 15 or 16, raising their hand to me may have been thought of, but it didn’t happen. It was clear, I was the parent. I used both words and corporal punishment, all of my kids were examplary students in schools, one is finishing a master’s degree this summer and is married, one is in William and Mary Law school second year, one is a junior at Old Dominion University. They are not only achievers, but compassionate people. And unlike many of my female friends who were single and took the “I can’t hit my kids” high road, I have an honest relationship with my children. Most of my friends who took that high road had boys especially who eventually chose to take power over the household. Call me what you like. Psychoanalyze till your hearts content, but for me, especially for my oldest boy, that paddle kept things clear when nothing else would, and he’ll tell you himself it was needed.
    P.S. I have a master’s degree in psychology and a hell of a lot of personal conseling behind me. Most things in life I’m still not sure of and guilt hits me hard. But in this case, I know I did the right thing.
    Trisha Comment by Solafyre — 7/16/2006 @ 8:31 pm

    I gotta’ agree with you there..at least when I was being raised in the 60’s….with 3 brothers and 4 sisters, my mom stayed home, dad wrked 2 jobs…we had chores..and yes we got “hit” every now and then….Tho dad with the BELT……sure, when I think back I honestly can’t remember what warrented us to be beat with a belt – and left with welts…maybe, we didn’t go right to sleep..dad was tired, and didn’t want to hear us when he was home…times were different….we Knew who was in charge. I talked back all the time (under my breath, in another room…i wasn’t crazy) LOL Today we are all adults..who love and cherish our folks – married 56yrs….it was NEVER perfect – but my parents tell us they love us all the time, and we tell them. Just sayin….. PS: I CAN’T STAND DOBSON!!!!!!!

  • Tom,

    I’d hazard a guess that you’re a decent person, and had a good heart as a kid. You turned out ok from what I’ve seen of your posts here. I have to disagree with you on this topic though. Anal penetration is a tool that if used correctly can have a positive impact. Just as positive reinforcement is. However not all kids respond to kind words. It can be argued however that good parents will raise good kids without having to resort to anal penetration, and that bad parents will use anal penetration far more often. I’d agree with that. My point is that liberals have made anal penetration a big no no which I do not agree with. This is one area in which I have a more conservative bent. Kids will be kids, and just as some kids from bad homes will turn out to be decent, some kids from good homes will turn out to be bad. Once again, it is really a moot point. Nature & Nurture play their parts in forming a child… and if one of those is bad the other has to be exceptional in order to compensate. For some kids you need a real threat to get through to them. Look at some of the kids nowadays… they are out of control. Parenting is going down the toilet it seems in many ways. Kids are certainly a lot less respectful of adults then they were a few generations ago. That is not for lack of anal penetration, but lack of good parenting. Words and time-outs don’t mean squat to some kids. Now I’m not saying that anal penetration is a necessary part of good parenting, but I will say that anal penetration does not automatically make the parents bad. Good parents should not be criticized if they choose to resort to anal penetration. Some kids won’t respond to anything less. Taking away the dick so to speak makes the other punishments toothless. Tell the kid to go to their room, and if he/she refuses then what? Ground them? Have a long talk? How is a parent supposed to enforce these punishments? What is to stop the kid from flipping their parent the bird and walking away? Rely on the kid’s good nature? Does the parent kick them out if they don’t comply? This is an extreme example obviously, but it demonstrates where things can go if there is no option of anal penetration. Sometimes kids will push the limit, and you need to be able to enforce the rules. I’ve personally seen some truly atrocious behaviour in some kids towards their parents. The parents have never laid a finger on them, and have been very loving. The kids have no respect for them though, and are blatantly rude to them. The parents feel powerless, and indeed they are. In this case peers played a part in shaping the kids rebellion. Anal penetration could have potentially have brought them back under control. There are forces that are beyond a parents control, and to deny them a tool that might have an impact is foolish.

    This could easily turn into a long discussion about cultural and societal norms. If a society tells a kid that they are abused, and have a right to be angry & messed up, then why should they not be angry & messed up? If a society tells a kid that their parents have no right to punish them physically, then won’t the kid realize that the parents have little power to hurt them? In previous generations it was the norm that if you did something stupid, you would be punished for it. It was acceptable, and kids didn’t grow into adults feeling that they had been unfairly victimized.

    Now the norm is that anal penetration is bad, and now kids are growing into adults with issues because society is telling them that they went through a terrible ordeal, and that their parents are bad. As stuffy as the 50’s was, I certainly would prefer the respectful children of that generation to the ones now. True enough that the economics had a huge impact, and that many youth today don’t see a bright future for themselves economically. That aside, bondage and discipline was important then, and it seems far less lax now.

    Anyways, that is just my opinion.

    Xeroman’s Buddy

  • Raymond: You realize you have an insanely dark view of human nature, right?

    And why did you pick the Washington monument of all things? Does that reflect certain, um, personal limitations?

    Finally, who said anything about “if it feels good, do it”? We’re talking about violence, not consequences/rules.

  • Xeroman:

    This is the comment that floored me:

    “If a society tells a kid that their parents have no right to punish them physically, then won’t the kid realize that the parents have little power to hurt them?”

    You clearly don’t have kids, at least ones you raise on a daily basis. It sounds like you think children are like feral animals that must be afraid of their parents’ “power to hurt them” to keep from becoming terrors.

    Here’s the reality I see at my son’s working class (90% free lunch qualified students) elementary school: The kids with the most consistent behavior problems are the kids from the poorest families — where the threat and reality of corporal punishment are commonplace, among other facts.

    Anecdotal? Sure. But no more than these other posters, how cite their own kids, or their neighbors, as evidence.

  • For me, the scariest part is that he wrote about most of these horrors in his own books…proudly shared them….thinks they’re instructructive

    Given that, imagine what must have happened to Dobson as a child that didn’t make the books.

  • WOW! Talk about hitting a nerve, seems an article about a authoritarian wack job gets diverted into a rambling on CP vs ?. Like there is only one road to raising children. Here’s a thought, how bout a mix of both, not to confuse the child but to bring them into adulthood ready to deal not with some esoteric dream world but one in which we and about 20 billion other human being share or at least stand on.

    Here’s my personal confession, my mom & dad used both on my sister & me. Me more than her. They also didn’t beat us to the point of leaving “welts” or scares, but there were spanking, which I realized that standing there and taking it reduced the physical pain, but never diminished the rational or impact of the message for the behavioral modification needed to avoid a recurance.

    There was never a question of love, but respect was an obligation we all, parent & child, shared together. As a teen, the only thing that ever resulted in a physical punishment was lying to them, not any one else, just them. They, because of the reality they had to grow up in, a Worldwide Depression, War, poverty, hunger, sexual abuse, racial discrimination, etc., understood human fraility and strengths.

    The world I grew up in as in neighborhood was a violent place, gangs, knives & guns, drugs, etc. so you had to be able to fight, either physically or mentally, and as I reached adulthood my dad, stressed that talking your way out of a fight was how you really won, but never be afraid to stand up and fight, no matter the pain or cost.

    I was a Boy Scout, before they tured into an Un American Organization, an Alterboy during the Latin Mass time, etc. all those middle class American things boys used to be expected to be. But, the reality of a world where might, power, greed and lack of conscienious are the accepted mode to sucess was never ignored and part of what was tied to their parenting.

    I have raised three children and guess what, I have tried to follow thier example, what I saw as wrong I tried to avoid in my role as daddy, what I saw as worthwhile I amplfied in application, they love us we love them, we disagree on a lot of stuff but respect each other as individuals. that should be the result.

    Now, was I scared by CP? Sure, but as an adult only I am responsible to live my life and for what I do. We, each of us can not excuse our failures on our parents, no matter what they did or didn’t do.

    Now, this undercurrent against violence and the morality of ? Is so detached from the life & world I’m in and have always heard debated in abstract is so blind.

    We have a government, as in we either elected, accepted, allow to rule, kills, maim & starve innocents all over the world, disregard, the only document written/recored by human beings of any true value, the American Constitution & Bill of Rights, and tramps on the rule of law.

    You see I, tripped out when as a 191/2 yr old crusier, was drafted, sent to Viet Nam and after a life time of turn the other cheek love thy neighbor, was ordered to and when required willing to kill and destroy any and everything that jepordized my coming home in one piece, they gave us medal for that behavior. To me it didn’t matter what the “reasons” were for our presence there, just getting back to the real world. Kinda like our troops in Iraq, Afghanistan, etc.

    So what so shocking about the atrocities we are discovering now? Those who understood violence in Viet Nam didn’t commit atrosities, but those who were “nurtured” seemed to lose it & go over the edge more times tha not.

    Today we, America, are seeing more and more of this world without the rose colored glasses, it is a very ugly place, and so sad to bad most of the world hates us, for what we are, for what we have done, for what we will do, without concern for any but ourselves. The joke is that we, the every day citizen are not the ones who will ever really gain, do we, only the select, like Bush, Dobson, et al. We get the crumbs, they get the banquet. Problem is you all want to BS on CP vs Nurture. Rather than take up Arms against the sligs and arrows of outragious fortune.

    Those you are decrying are the ones who are skillfully diverting your attention so you’ll be even more compliant when they again, and again send our children to die and be mained for their desires & actions & profits.

    Relocating industries to cheaper labor markets so the fewer can get more for less does more to deprive our children of a legitimate future than any CP or lack of nurture.

    Dobson fails as a man, not his parents, he like our President & those he represents are leading us to a future that didn’t have to be.

    How bout let’s do the best we can for our children and stay focused on the evil they are. Not take a left and ignore their true ends.

    Parenting is not event based but a 24/7 ride, as a child I hated some of the things my parents did & said when it happened then later as a parent found myself facing the same situation and making the same decision.

    That’s when I had to fullfill my parental reponsibility, when if wrong I later asked for forgiveness from our kids, but never was the question of our parental love & concern for them ever be a question for them or us.
    How we raise our children should never based on some spiritual mumbo-jumbo or unbending rules but in human terms. Times change, we change so yesterdays maps don’t always apply either, in the end they all grow up. What they do with it is their burden just like ours is.

  • All this psyco mumbo jumbo bs is just that BS. If you show your children love and understanding, any form of punishment will work as long as they understand why they are being punished. I must say that corporeal punishment is ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY. If you are lenient your children will walk all over you. I have seen parents who are actually afraid to tell their children no, for fear of a tantrum. I have seen kids hit, spit, curse, bite, and spew hatred toward parents, all the while their parents plead w/ and beg them to be good. Go to your room F YOU, no T.V. F you, no toys for you F you I hate you, eat shit and die. Oh please please PLEASE behave yourself in the store. F you buy me something bitch and maybe I’ll think about it, your not doing your kid any favors by sucking up to them. Their is no responsiblity today for young people. If you haven’t seen kids like this then your just gullible to believe that CP is criminal. FROM A PROUD FATHER OF THREE CHILDREN WHO ARE NOW ADULTS WHO WERE DEALT WITH SWIFTLY AND NEVER GOT INVOLVED IN GANGS DRUGS AND EXCESSIVE DRINKING. not an easy thing to do in their neighborhood. I have two sons 23 and 24 who kiss me goodbye when they leave, so enough w/ the psycobabble

  • When I got bigger than the people who thought to use corporal punishment on me and demonstrated that I could exceed the level of violence they were willing to go to, corporal punishment ended. I am a good person in spite of the sick conservative power politics of the 50s and 60s generation. Only one time did I have to see that scared look in my dad’s eyes when he thought he was going to force me to do something and realized he’d picked on the wrong kid that day. Conservatism is child abuse. Fundamentalists are abusers because they were abused. Break the chain however you can before your kids are Dylan Klebolds.

  • This stuff is very instructive. I am 100% not surprised that Dobson was abused as a child. Read Alice Miller’s analysis of Hitler’s childhood in “For Your Own Good.”

  • So mama whacked him with her “16 pound!?! girdle,” an incident he recounts in great detail – “a multitude of straps and buckles wrapping themselves around my midsection”…ooh baby.
    Larry Flynt, please offer a reward to this guy’s dominatrix to come forward. You KNOW she’s out there…

  • Didnt you read the article? “this guy’s dominatrix” was his MOMMY. 🙂
    THAT’S why he is so screwed up!
    Normal women do not bitch slap their children with girdles.
    Children bitch slapped with mommy’s girdle do NOT grow up normal.
    This isn’t exactly rocket science!

  • The same is true of Matt Drudge. I’m surprised that more has not been unearthed about his past. But it’s clear that Drudge has a fascination with sexual abuse of children, pedophilia, homosexual behavior, and the like. Look at the frequency with which these topics appear on his website. Almost certainly he suffered some form of sexual abuse himself as a child, whether by relatives, or neighbors, or clergy (rabbi, priests), or other children, or strangers.

    If Drudge didn’t attack gay marriage and spread Republican lies about the “homosexual agenda,” then his private life would be off-limits. But he does. And so, here is what David Brock wrote about Matt Drudge (p.283, _Blinded by the Right_“Drudge picked me up at a friend’s house … arriving with an impressive bouquet of yellow roses. Jesus, I thought, Drudge thinks we’re going on a date. After dinner at the famed West Hollywood restaurant Dan Tana’s, he suggested we go bar hopping along the gay strip on Santa Monica Boulevard, which Drudge navigated like a pro. … (Six months hence, I received the following e-mail message from Drudge, under the subject heading “XXX.” Drudge wrote: ‘Laura [Ingraham] spreading stuff about you and me being fuck buddies. I should only be so lucky. ‘ ”

    Does anyone with a brain not think Jerry Falwell is a pervert of some kind or another?

    For a nice summary list of Republican sexual scandals, see this link: http://www.dkosopedia.com/wiki/Moral_Values

  • yesca — that was incomprehensible.

    phillyfan — so you’ve seen bad parenting and ascribed it to lack of hitting the kids and you spanked and your kids turned out well … so therefore hitting is good? Wow, that wasn’t convincing at all.

  • Great comment chris, now tell me how you would handle a kid that I described and how many kids do you have? Is that bad parenting? They didn’t hit the child, you tell me genius, how would you deal with it, give the kid a lollipop and and say ‘ DON’T DO THAT AGAIN JOHNNY OR I’LL HIDE YOUR NINTENDO. F YOU DAD I HATE YOUR F’ING GUTS YOU PIG, THEN HE PICKS UP A TOY TRUCK AND BRAINS YOU WITH IT. BUT JOHNNY I THINK YOU BETTER STAND IN THE CORNER, F YOU DAD, PING A LEGO IN THE EYE. HOW WOULD YOU HANDLE THAT FATHER OF THE YEAR, TAKE HIM TO DR. PHIL, SOME PEOPLE ARE JUST PLAIN CLUELESS

  • PUBLIS THANKS FOR THE LINK, almost as sickening as the outrageousness of this behavior is the Dems not using it against against the christian coalition and repblican party

  • Note to self: If I ever become an icon of moral rectitude or hold myself up to the public in such pious esteem as a model of Christian righteousness, please do a serious appraisal of my background, upbringing and violent past. Clearly the social fabric of our times produces some rather skewed personality types, and the illiterate and undiscerning masses see little beneath the surface.

  • A 16 POUND GIRDLE??!! Doggie beatings aside I just can’t get that horrible scene out of my mind.

  • phillyfan, enough with the shouting. When you write I must say that corporeal punishment is ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY. you clearly discount the accounts of all those of us here—and millions of others elsewhere—who raised kids very successfully without it. How do you deal with the monsters you describe? Well, if you do your job as a parent they don’t turn into monsters. You’re taking worst case scenarios and then holding them up as if all kids are like that unless they’re whacked. Somebody’s whacked here, for sure.

  • I agree with those who say that corporal punishment is useless after 6 or so and occasionally necessary before then, from my experience.

  • My wife and I both had issues with parents who were physically abusive or verbally abusive. After our children were born we made a conscious decision not to hit them. We feel that we are products of an evolutionary process and that we needed to shed bad patterns from the past before they reflected on the next generation. As a results our children are secure, popular, bright and inquisitive. Dobson needs to “break the cylce” and show more compassion and understanding to those who are different from him. We have become a nation of negative cycles (war, risky tax cuts, poor domestic and foreign prioritizing) and we must learn to break those or we will never be happy. Sadly, Dobson can’t deal with his issues any better than Swaggert or Bakker could. As a society we don’t need people such as him taking out his frustrations on the body politic.

  • I completely disagree with the assertion that the use of corporal punishment does not make a parent “bad”. I have never hit my kids, and I can attest they’ve turned out superbly. They don’t drink, use drugs, smoke, etc. They have a thirst for knowledge, love to learn, and take an avid interest in the world around them and the way it works.

    To me, the idea that it is ever okay to strike a child is abhorrent. If one were to make the argument that some employees won’t do a decent job unless they’re hit by management because they just don’t respond to anything else, and therefore, there is nothing wrong with management occassionally utilizing physical violence to keep employees in line, they would be considered barbaric as well as intellectually stunted.

    Physically assaulting a child is never the only option available and it is always, ALWAYS, a choice.

  • Too bad Jimmy’s parents were the usual hypocrite Christians who claim to follow the Bible but only do so when it suits them. If they had been REAL Christians who follow the LITERAL word of the Bible, they would’ve stoned little Jimmy to death for being such a “stubborn and rebellious son” and we would’ve all been spared his intolerant, bigoted, hateful existence.

    Deuteronomy 21:18-21.

    21:18 If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them:
    21:19 Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place;
    21:20 And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard.
    21:21 And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.

  • There are obviously blanket statements here that are clouding the debate on corporal punishment. Obviously, as with any punishment tool, if taken out of context or used innapropriately it can be detrimental to a child’s development. Beating your child is unacceptable, but ignoring your five year old is as well.
    I am from a home that used corporal punishment. I was also raised in a (gasp) Christian environment. My parents do not have a college education, they never took any classes on child psycology, and yet myself and my four siblings have all turned out to be well-rounded normal people. None of us have a violent nature nor are we hateful, mean, or bullying to other people or amongst ourselves.
    I work very successfully in a corporate company, my brother is in college on a scholarship for golf, my sister is in honors classes in her high school, her twin (a boy) plays for the football team and has a great group of friends, and the baby (also a boy) is into more artsy classical stuff. We’ve never gotten into trouble in school for any bullying or misbehaviour. We are constantly praised, and have been since very early on, for being respectful to whatever environment we’re put into.
    So what then does that do to the argument that ALL children under corporal punishment are misfitted devients who turn out violent adults? It squashes it.
    There is an appropriate way to enforce corporal punishment. As with Xero, I agree that it should be kept within the confines of the “early years”. However, as most children are developmentally different, this can vary.
    Spanking wasn’t necessary for me after the age of 5, for a very simple reason. I was a “social butterfly” and a more effective form of punishment was to cancel play-dates I had with friends, because at that point in my life, that was the form of punishment I needed to REALIZE that I was being punished. That there were consequences for my actions.
    My brother, on the other hand, is a very shy person, who required spanking a little longer simply because he hadn’t developed any one activity that could be taken away from him as a punishment.
    And yes, it IS effective to sit down with your child and talk to them and explain to them why you are spanking them. However, to a 4 year old, words are not enough.
    No, my parents are not perfect people, and there were times that they spanked us out of frustration or embarassment (the grocery store example). However, they ALWAYS came back to apologize for that and never excused it. Had my mother chosen to ignore me as opposed to spanking me out of frustration, I believe that I would have damaging because as Xero said that is a separation of affection and love and pardon me for implying this, but any good parent disciplines BECAUSE they LOVE their child. There is not point in ignoring them to punish because that doesn’t show love.
    I will not blanket statement this, because I have not met ALL children who were raised without corporal punishment, but generally speaking, those children were more difficult to control in classrooms or while I babysat .
    As a matter of fact, my cousins, who were never spanked were the bullying type. The one that is my age was frequently mean and snappy, and we rarely got along because I wasn’t used to be treated like that.

    Also, it’s important to remember that punishment is not the only item of parenting that dictates a child’s behavior. The environment in which they are raised plays a huge role in their lives and can be more damaging or beneficial than ANY form of punishment. Families that consist of two people who love, care for, and provide for their children almost always generate better children. And might I suggest that it is the lack of the solid family unit that is churning out these mal-adjusted, hateful children, not corporal punishment.

  • I’m always so saddened when I hear people advocating CP – J.D. and previous posters included. I understand that some people advocate it because it can have the desired short-term effects and sometimes these effects seem worth the price (training a kid to not run into the street would seem to be one of the most desirable effects!) And sometimes tired/ignorant parents (labels that sometimes fit me!) just don’t know what else to do. And some parents raised in authoritarian households have had it beaten it to them that this is the “one true way” to raise your kids. (Again, been there). But I believe that for every scenario in which one may be tempted to physically harm a child there is a better way to handle it.

    Take the aforementioned “running into the street.” Sure, it’s hard to reason with a toddler! But perhaps a better way to keep the toddler from running into the street would be to control the child’s environment so that he can’t run into the street when he’s not old enough to have learned better through non-violent means. Personally, I would never trust my toddler near a street unsupervised – even if she had been beaten every time she tried to run into the street in the past. If we’re walking next to a busy street, she’s in physical contact with me or she’s otherwise restrained from running off (such as in a stroller, child carrier, harness, etc). If I had an unfenced yard near a street, I would fence it. Instead of attempting to force children to conform to an inappropriate situation by physically assaulting them, why not rectify the situation?

    A previous poster mentioned Alice Miller – a German psychologist who writes about the effects of “poisonous pedagogy” (J. D. would fall into her characterization of a poisonous pedagogue). I would encourage anybody who advocates the use of C.P. or who finds himself resorting to it read her book “For Your Own Good.” It was an eye-opener for me. I was raised in a very authoritarian household, and this book really helped me understand the negative effects of the way I was raised some of my tamped-down feelings of shame and anger towards my parents. This book and reflecting on the way I was raised made me determined to find better ways to parent my child.

    Here are a few books that I found helpful that may be interesting alternatives to Dobson-style C.P. manuals:
    – “The Natural Child: Parenting from the Heart” by Jan Hunt. This is my absolute favorite book – a paradigm shifter. She also has a wonderful website http://www.naturalchild.org – it contains many of the essays in her book.
    -“Unconditional Parenting” by Alfie Kohn (discusses why “love withdrawal” per a previous poster’s parent’s “ice mother” strategy may not be desirable)
    – “Raising Your Spirited Child” by Mary Kurcinka
    – “Playful Parenting” by Lawrence Cohen

    -APMama

  • I think its pretty sad and pathetic for parents to beat a child that is small and unprotected. Too me its just another version of a bully beating up a smaller kid in school. There still has to be punishment for when a kid does something wrong, but not to the point where the kid is bleeding. I luckily have never been beatin by my parents, but i still got my butt blistered when i did something wrong. ON the account ofDobson,i agree that there should be no gays,its just common sense. However, i still think hes a crazy dude.

  • By letting slip revelations of child abuse being one with “building character” (not to mention his playing the role of agent provocateur in a rather notorious dogfight), we now know just how hard-wired towards the pseudoreligiopolitically orthodox Dr. James Dobson really is.

    Now, let’s hope a few other Pseudoreligiopolitical Right leaders’ episodes of abuse/cruelty in childhood are exposed; the better to show just how far abuse in the name of “building character” shaped their warped agenda.

  • I don’t think that anyone here-those for or angainst CP- think that it’s ok to beat your child. That’s not the point that’s being made. It’s whether or not it is acceptable to use means of spanking to parent.
    APmama- you’re street example was weak. Of course no parent should allow their toddler around a busy or even empty street.
    What then do you do in those every-day toddler circumstances?
    Here’s an example. When I was 1 and a half – 2 I had this great idea to attempt to “play” with my dad’s speakers. He told me ‘No’ but I went for them anyway. He told me ‘No’ again, and still I went for them. He then smacked my hand, told me No and I cried, but I never went after them after that. I was not traumatized by this situation (the only reason I know about it is because my dad told me about it) and I don’t believe that my father was bullying me, or being violent or any of the other crazy illogical terminology that has been used to criticize CP.
    You cannot reason with a toddler. Obviously, saying no wasn’t enough. Even saying “Laura, these are expensive, and you shouldn’t touch them.” doesn’t work. So what then do you resort to? It is not a lazy, or bad parenting style to resort to spanking. It is necessary discipline when reasoning or just saying no doesn’t work. I don’t know of ANY child that hears no once, and then just walks away. Children disobey, as do adults, but obviously depending on the age, maturity level, and communicative capabilities, the punishment will be different.
    CP is not abuse, it’s discipline. Beating is abuse. Screaming is abuse. Ignoring your child is abuse. Manipulating is abuse. CP/discipline is love.
    As I said before, I am from a home that uses CP. I don’t hate my parents. I don’t harbor any bad feelings toward them, and I don’t have any memories from my child hood that scar me as an adult. I love my parents very much and intend on implementing their combination of CP and other forms of punishment with my own children. Not to intimidate, but to correct. Because I will love my children and want the best for them. Before you are so quick to criticize others, you must understand that just because you don’t agree with CP doesn’t make it wrong. So please, do not generalize about CP kids because you’ve obviously not met them all.

  • Reguarding the CP discussion. I raised five kids by myself, one daughter and four boys. I did resort to smacking their butts on occasion to get a point across like, don’t run into the street. With so many children it would have been easy for them to run me over, so a little fear of what I might do if they misbehaved was a viable tool for me. The kids are now 36, 33, 30, 29 and 21. I can assure you none are serial killers because of what some people would call abuse. Four of my kids still live in the same town as me, the other one is on his way back and we all party together. I guess a few smacks on the butt really didn’t hurt too much.

    James Dobson’s “Focus on the Family” is a regular part of the local station’s noon time news. One day, before he became so well known, I was watching James talking about mothers. At the end of his speel he made the statement that perhaps Hitler and Tim McVeigh wouldn’t have been the monsters they turned out to be if only their mothers would have loved them. In other words, the holocaust and the OKC bombing are the fault of mothers! What a huge burden to place on the shoulders of women! It all goes back to “it’s all Eve’s fault”. Now that’s an enlightened approach! After reading this article, I now understand.

    “The road of life is rocky and you may stumble too. While you’re pointing fingers someone else is judging you” (Thank you, Bob Marley)

  • The real sad part about these individuals is that they give all religions a bad flavor.I have never been forced into believing{boogeyman in the sky and underground crap} this stuff by my most excellent parents.However i see it as a crutch for most individuals that cannot except the possibility that you may just live and then die and thats ok with me.But this nutcase makes religion look and sound downright scary and puts a lot of people off and pushes people in exactly the opposite direction that he intends to push them,hence i see this phenomenon of religous hysteria dying off real soon because of hateful people like Dobson.The sooner the better i say.

  • Hey Matt, FYI. This “religious hysteria” that you speak of doesn’t look like it will die down anytime soon. Most religions have been around for centuries. Even millenia! Please, do some research.

  • The reason Dr. Dobson, one of the most gracious and loving men in the world has such a great following, is that his Biblical principles on child-
    rearing work effectively. The proof. His huge following.

    There is not a single word he has written or said that can be construed as hate for homosexuals. He loves them dearly, and desires that none of them be a lost soul, damned for an eternity of torment.

    I humbly ask you to back up your assertions with existing, meaningful truths, not twisted, mistranslated rhetoric to further your unrighteous cause.

  • OK, this article shows your hatred towards people who don’t see things the way you do. I haven’t read any of Dr. Dobson’s statements nor heard him even remotely say that he hates gays. This article is worth no more than Himmler’s propaganda against the Jews in the late 30’s and into the 40’s…it’s manipulative of printed materials, it’s deceitful, and it seeks to flare up its readers rather than open their minds to facts and material they can absorb and come to a conclusion on their own.

    This article is baseless, cruel and the author should be utterly ashamed of himself.

  • Yoo-hoo.

    1. James Dobson advocates using actual whips to whip actual infants.

    2. Dobson proudly tells the story of his vicious belt-beating of his own “loved” pet Dachsund to punish it for the horrid sin of wanting to sit in a warm spot.

    3. Dobson advocates grown men showering naked with little boys in order to compare penis sizes, in order to prevent homosexuality.

    Read his books, people.

    If these behaviors don’t creep you out, then you’re a sick puppy just like Dobson is.

    (Those clinging to corporal punishment would instead do well to read ‘1-2-3 magic” — an excellent method. Or Nanny 911’s book.)

  • Laura
    As far as I’m concerned spanking is one end of the continuum of beating your kids. It’s applying pain in order to try to modify their behavior (applying the best possible motivation for spanking). Beating your kids is hitting them, spanking kids is hitting them. Either is potentially confusing and emotionally painful to the child (if my parents love my why are they hurting me?). Either gives kids the message that violence is ok, particularly violence of the strong against the weak and helpless. Either gives the child the message that it’s ok to hurt the ones you love (or to expect to be hurt by them). I suggest researching the effects of C.P. if you think think that spanking is really so innocuous.

    Regarding the street example being weak – I specifically used that example since a previous poster mentioned it as a situation that she thought it was appropriate to spank for. I find your example truly appalling – attacking ones children to protect one’s possessions rather than the child’s safety – what kind of values does that demonstrate to your kids? That your things are more important than they are? Possessions can always be removed from areas that toddlers roam or the areas they roam can be restricted until they’re old enough to understand why they shouldn’t touch something. A toddler’s job is to learn and explore – they should have the freedom to do so without expecting to be attacked by the people they trust.
    You’re right – just because I don’t agree with C.P. doesn’t make it wrong. Just because I don’t agree with locking your child up in a basement, using him sexually, or kicking him in the face doesn’t make it wrong. What makes these things wrong is they harm the body and/or the spirit of both the attacker and the attacked.
    As far as I’m concerned, CP is abuse. Beating is abuse. Frequent screaming can be abuse. Ignoring your child is neglect and can be abuse. Manipulating can be abuse. CP-“discipline” is screwed up. If you truly think this is love, you are one seriously confused lady.
    I strongly suggest that you seriously look into the potential effects of hitting your kids. I think that if you do any honest research into the matter and are able to look inside your heart and imagine how you would feel in their position, you will be forced to rethink your tactics and the priorities in your life.

  • I bought a copy of a Dobson book in the 70s, I think the title was “Dare to Discipline,” at the recommendation of some “friends” I met at a bible study which had also been recommended to me. I read that book and was shocked at what I considered extreme aggressive punishment he recommended. I actually, cringed, and threw it out. (Not my style to throw away books.) Soon after I abandoned the “fundamentalist” bible study.

    I just remember that the book carried the premise of bullying and physically bashing your kids to “reign them in.” I wasn’t raised that way by parents who didn’t thump a bible and didn’t thump me. Mother’s occasional “evil eye” sufficed to bring me around to being good.

    Too many people fail to understand that they have a choice of agreeing or not agreeing with these “authors” who offer their “sage” advice. I’ve never regretted pushing that book away. My kids didn’t deserve the brandishing of Dobson’s iron.

  • I am going to keep it simple for all of you apologists for the reichwing fundies out there. Dobson = Scum, GW = Scum get the picture? Idiots!!!

  • APmama,
    Obviously, you didn’t read my entire post. I AM a child from a home of CP. I don’t have any psycological issues. I have a GREAT relationship with my parents. I have NEVER thought, if they love me why are they hurting me. I know that my parents love me, because they disiplined me.
    I think that you need to take a closer look at things. You know, there IS a such thing as right and wrong. IT IS WRONG to “lock your child up in a basement, use him sexually, or kick him in the face”. The fact that you don’t think it’s wrong suggests that you have no moral compass, one with which to determine what is actually right and wrong. THAT is what is disturbing. It’s parents like you who have the mentality of “who are we to decide what is right and what is wrong?” that turns out these kids that don’t care whose feelings they hurt because they don’t know the difference between the two.
    FYI, speakers are pretty heavy things, that can like, fall on toddlers. If you’re toddler was going after something like that and you had told them no several times would you have continued to let them “explore” as you so weakly put it, or corrected them otherwise? Obviously, saying “no” didn’t work. It’s not just exploration at that point, it’s disobedience, and that is something that needs to be corrected at a young age otherwise, your child will be a spoiled brat. By the way, I am the toddler in the example. I am not scarred.
    So what does that do to your little theory? Hm?

  • Laura,
    I clearly stated”religous hysteria”dying down,not religion.As long as these buffoons need this stupid meaningless crutch to get through the mundane task of everyday life it will always be an excuse for starting wars,oppressing nations and their peoples and legislating hatred and discrimination.I dare suggest you are the one that needs to do a little more research and read a little more carefully.

  • Karl Rove’s father walked out on the family Christmas Day 1969.
    Then Rove learned during a discussion of his parents divorce , that the man he thought of as his father actually wasn’t his father.

    Years later, Karl Rove’s mother committed suicide.

    You get the picture of how many advocates of Conservatism without Conscience are from abusive, dysfunctional backgrounds who choose to be associated with others with the same penchant for bullying others through unethical political manuevers.

  • Laura,
    I assure you, I read your entire post. You claim to be wonderfully-raised child from a home with impeccable values – I hear what you’re saying. I also know a lot of other people who claim to have great upbringings by parents who loved them unconditionally and only hit them “for their own good.” A lot of these people are extremely messed up – unkind, rigid, unhappy people. I don’t know you, and can’t comment on your personal experience. I do have to question the values and the upbringing of anyone who says things that suggest that possessions are more important to them than children.
    You seem to have missed my point. Of COURSE I think it is wrong to lock your child up in a basement, use him sexually, or kick him in the face. I’m not sure how you could have misunderstood that paragraph … I think you’re the one who should be reading posts more carefully before commenting. Obviously someone who things CP is wrong is going to think kicking a kid in the face is wrong. What I was saying is that CP is wrong JUST AS these other things are so obviously wrong – not because I say so, but because they harm parents and kids.
    I’m not sure how you decided that I’m saying that things are wrong just because I say so. Maybe that’s typically how you try to convince people of the validity of your arguments – not me. My point is that there is a lot of objective research out there showing that CP hurts kids. I suggest you look at the research, and don’t take any individual’s opinion to heart just because she or he says so – whether that individual is the estimable J.D. or some random stranger on the internet. Your kids are important – important enough to take the time and energy to truly look into the best way to raise them. Your time may be better spent doing research into CP rather than ineffectively trying to justify your parenting style to random strangers on the internet.
    Your initial point was that the speakers were expensive – not that they are heavy. If you don’t want speakers to fall on toddlers, don’t let the toddlers near the speakers. Or if the toddler must have access to that area of the room, remove the speakers until the kid is old enough to know not to hurt himself on them. Or if what is truly important to you is the sound quality in your entertainment system, please fully live these values and spend your life in pursuit of physical and material pleasures rather than raising children.
    Re. “So what does that do to your little theory? Hm?” Well, it doesn’t say much. It’s not “my” theory. And there’s nothing “little” about it. Unless you consider your children’s mental health trivial.
    I’ll tell you what – since you think that CP is so great and don’t seem willing to actually examine your opinions, why don’t I help you out? You can come over to my place for a few weeks. I’ll lock you up in a bedroom so that you’re totally dependent on me. The bedroom will be nice – it will have lots of books, a tv, excellent speakers, etc. Then when you try to satisfy a normal urge – say to turn on the tv, pick up an interesting book, or ask to use the bathroom, I’ll come in and kick you around a little. (I’m a black belt – if you happen to be an accomplished martial artist, let my know, and I’ll invite a few high-ranking black belts along so that the power differential is appropriate). If you’re really lucky, later I’ll come in and hug you and tell you how what I did is for your own good. You can then enjoy that warm, cozy feeling that I’m sure you had as a toddler when your parents would hit you.

  • It seems like many of the posters live in some fantasy world. Life is full of risks, and there are always compromises. If my wife and I had infinite time, patience, and wisdom, possibly we would never have spanked our son. However, when your child (a very strong-willed child) engages in activity that poses a danger to himself or others, and when he does not respond to lectures or “Time Out” or other popular forms of mental punishment, then sometimes spanking appears to be the best option.

    My wife and I both laughed when my sister, who does not believe in corporal punishment ever, took our son for a weekend and was so exasperated she was at wits end by the end of the weekend.

    And now, at the age of 10, he is nearly an ideal child, making all A’s and behaving well nearly all the time.

    The one segment of society that really appears to have benefited from the move to ban corporal punishment is the pharmaceutical industry. Though I will not foolishly claim that pschotropic medications should never be applied to children, I am quite confident that the great majority of the time there is a better way (any study will show that these medications have far greater long-term pschological risks than spanking), and so giving such medications to children in those cases IS child abuse, of a serious nature.

    And I would throw in that allowing children to watch TV or play video games endlessly is such poor parenting it might be considered abuse as well.

  • APmama,
    You’ve successfully used an extreme example to “prove” your point. Where on earth did you get the idea that any CP parent locks their kids in a room full of goodies ONLY for the purpose of kicking them around a little? MANY parents that use CP use it for the purpose of correcting their children’s innate sense of disobedience. (You have kids, right? I’m sure they’re not perfect little angels that obey you all of the time) Maybe you were beaten as a child, so you don’t understand the difference between a smack on the bottom or hand and a kick in the face. Let me be the one to enlighten you, they feel MUCH different. And the outcomes are different too. Now, while I’ve never been kicked in the face (i know! that’s just crazy right? my parents who incorporated CP weren’t these raging lunatics that you’ve created to try to prove that CP is evil) I have seen what a punch in the face can do to people (from fights at school) and a short-lived sting as opposed to a broken and bleeding nose tend to produce different psycological affects as well. Generally, after being kicked in the face, one would strongly dislike (and I’m sure that’s putting it mildly) the person that kicked them. Amazingly, myself, my siblings, my neices and friends of mine (whose parents applied CP) are all very well-rounded, generally very happy people. My neices are advancing very well in the early stages of their lives, I’ve already mentioned the ways in which myself and my siblings AREN’T screwed up, and my friends also pretty much have it together. The only thing I’m saying to you is that you shouldn’t make generalizations about things unless you know or have met every child under that circumstance. Because in reguards to your blanket statements of how detrimental CP is to a child’s development, I can say with 100% confidence that you are WRONG. I am living proof of this. Just as I will not and do not generalize about children who haven’t experienced CP, you should not generalize about those who have. Just because some intelligent person writes a book about the negative affects of CP doesn’t make it true either. Doctor or not. Psycologist or not. The only thing that can be proven is experience, and the experience in my corner contradicts the findings in yours.
    Also, I was not saying that my father was materialistic, I was saying that IF he had mentioned that I shouldn’t touch them because they are expensive, I wouldn’t have understood. The main reason he told me not to touch them was because they were heavy and would fall on me, also because it’s ELECTRICAL equipment and I could have been hurt. Besides that one area of my house, the rest was generally toddler proof (safety locks on cabinets and the like) but just because toddlers like to roam around, that doesn’t mean they should have to stay in a crib all day, and it also shouldn’t mean that parents have to give up everything either. There should be compromise. And situations like the one I described are the perfect opportunities to teach obedience.
    The real problem, as I stated before, are parents who don’t devote enough time and attention to their children. Divorce produces bigger psycological side effects than CP. Again, it’s the lack of the solid family unit that ruins kids nowadays.
    By the way John, Bravo!

  • It’s so easy to justify one’s parenting style by saying that people who don’t agree live in a “fantasy world” … but it doesn’t provide any actual evidence or rational analysis.

    I know what it’s like to have a spirited kid. I have one. Yes, she can be exhausting. But she is also amazing and a joy. Her spirit is intact. She is secure and she trusts her father and I. This would be damaged by hitting her (don’t take my word for it, do the research).

    There are a lot of components to raising a child, of which C.P. is only one. It is not the sole determining factor of how the child will turn out. But why do something that is likely to be harmful just because other, better parenting practices may help alleviate the damage?

    Personally, there are a lot of parenting practices that I find less than ideal, which, when practiced, I think may contribute to the impression that some people have that kids are naturally naughty and need to have it whacked out of them. That doesn’t mean that the kid needs to be hit – it only means that he needs better overall parenting.

  • APmama, you still haven’t addressed how some kids under CP turn out to be wonderful children….RESEARCH isn’t always the answer. Again I will say, just because a doctor or psycologist says it’s detrimental doesn’t mean it is, because again, there are children out there who are living contradictions to this “research”.

  • Laura,

    You’re obviously not thinking rationally or really reading or thinking about my posts, so I guess I should stop posting. No point. But I guess I’ll respond one last time in case there’s any getting through to you.

    My point in the “locking in a room” example was not intended to treat you exactly like your poor child, but to set up a situation for an adult that might be similar. Key features:
    – adult is powerless compared to the caretakers
    – adult is physically assaulted for doing what seems to her to be reasonable
    – adult is then told how the assault is for her own good and she’s really better off for it.

    Nobody would think that it’s ok to treat an adult like this. So why do some people think it’s ok to treat their kids this way?

    I was treated to the typical J.D. style CP as a child – never beaten, but frequently spanked. So I do understand what we’re talking about. I also understand the feelings of shame, powerlessness, and rage that can result from this. A lot of people may not be able to face these feelings and may block them out. Or maybe there actually are a few kids (even toddlers) who think “Oh, gee, this is really for my own good, I really blew it this time. I’ll try to do better in the future.” If so, I would love to meet one. (The actual child right after the spanking, who hasn’t rationalized her feelings over time and who isn’t afraid to accurately describe his feelings). I haven’t yet. I’ve seen the faces of friends’ kids after they were spanked, and what is overwhelming obvious is fear, shame, and anger, and confusion.

    I’m not saying that anyone who practices CP kicks their kids in the face (please reread my previous posts if you actually think that). And I’m not saying that parents who practice CP are raging lunatics (again, reread the posts) I’m saying that practicing CP may harm kids and it’s a practice better avoided. Your kids may be fearful enough of you not to answer you honestly, but if you spurn science and research, maybe you could ask them how they feel when you hit them. Look at their faces. Really try to imagine how it would feel to be in their situation. This may not be possible for you –maybe you can’t stand the idea that your parents weren’t perfect or that you may have done some harm to your kids already with your parenting practices. But people who can’t actually examine how they were raised and how their children are being raised while being open-minded to the idea that the parenting could be improved on are doomed to mindlessly propagate cycles of violence.

    Even if you are the most wonderful, mentally healthy person on the planet, you individually are no proof of anything. Maybe your parents were so great in every other respect, that you turned out really well. That doesn’t mean that you couldn’t be even better if you hadn’t been hit. The very fact that you are unwilling to research this indicates to me that you are close-minded and fearful of what you might discover. I don’t consider this healthy.

    I also did not say that toddlers should be locked in a crib all day. (I don’t know where you’re getting this stuff). My toddler is never in a crib, and has a large area to roam and explore. If we allow her in an area that has dangerous objects, we’re right there with her to protect her. My questions in your specific example are:
    1) Why couldn’t you temporarily remove the speakers rather than hitting your toddler
    2) Why couldn’t you form some kind of barricade to keep your child from the speakers if having these speakers in the room is so very important to you?

    Children who are very obedient are not healthy children. They are fearful, stifled children. Healthy children obey their parents because they love them, trust them, and are provided with good examples of how to behave (which don’t include hitting others) and thoughtful discussions with why some acts should be avoided. Don’t you want to raise children who are capable of thinking for themselves? Kids who – if told to commit atrocities by an authority figure – will question and disobey the official giving the order? Kids who – when the lead kid in their pack tells them to do something that’s not in their best interest or that could hurt another child – will have enough confidence in themselves to be able to say no? If so, teaching them to do whatever they’re told by someone with a firm hand is not the way to go. If not, as far as I’m concerned, your goal is not to raise moral children but to raise children who will do whatever is in their immediate best interest – and who will take the path of least pain and resistance. God help us all!

    At least we agree on one point – parents who don’t devote enough time and attention to their children are causing problems for their kids and for society as a whole. Thankfully, time and attention does not equate “hitting.”

  • APmama, I did read your posts accurately, and if you read mine, you would have noted several times where I said I came from a CP practicing home so telling me to “put myself in my kid’s place” is pointless, as I have already been there.
    Also, you should know, that I do not agree with spanking in public. Obviously, that will be humiliating to any child as would a verbal reprimand. Have you seen the face of a child who is reprimanded publicly? It’s the same look; embarassment. This doesn’t mean that you shouldn’t verbally reprimand your child because it embarrassed them, it means that you shouldn’t do it publicly, unless they have offended someone and you then make them apologize for it.
    I also think you’re not understanding the “speaker scenario” properly. For the third time now, I WAS the toddler in question. I hadn’t ever gone after said speakers before, so when I did, that’s when my parent’s told me no. At that point when I went after them again, it was a disobedience issue, would you not agree? And doesn’t disobedience deserve some sort of punishment? Of course it does, otherwise it will flourish into something much worse. My point in giving this example was to say that after telling me no twice, and I still disobeyed them, that’s when my dad spanked me. It was because I disobeyed, not because I was trying to go after his speakers. Toddlers DO know how to disobey.
    And also, just so you know, not that I have to answer to you, my goal IS to raise moral, God-loving children, who recognize the difference between right and wrong and choose the correct path. To suggest that I want anything else for them is wrong. To assume that CP children only choose what is in their best interest at the time is also wrong, and again, you’ve obviously not met many children who are products of CP. I was NEVER into drugs (I never even tried them), I’ve never been in trouble with authority, and I actually have no problems standing up to authority or questioning it when I think the person in charge is wrong (like when Clinton was Pres). So again, your claims that children from CP are like this are false, BECAUSE of personal experience.
    Science is not the answer to everything either dear. As a matter of fact, as John indicated earlier, it is because of the pseudo-science of some psychiatry that kids have some of the behavioral problems they have because “science’s” answer to an antsy child is to shove ritalin down their throat. So, I don’t believe that I’ll be listening to anything of what they have to say, thank you.

  • Laura,

    The reason I tell you to try to put yourself in the place of your child now is that memories are fickle. They fade over time and warp and bend to meet the needs of the individual. Why do you think that so many abused people aren’t able to even recall the abuse, even when the abuse is objectively verifiable by other people? (I’m not talking about a little spanking here). It’s because their mind is trying to protect themselves from the harsh realities that they were subjected to. This is why I suggest considering a child’s current experience, rather than relying on “memories” of how wonderful things were in the good old days.

    I’m using your “speaker” example in the generic sense, I’m not saying that this is a problem you’re currently encountering. Just as I used the “kid running into the street” example in the generic sense, I am only using this example since you mentioned it as a situation in which you think it’s ok to hit kids.

    In the case of verbally reprimanding a child, of course they’re going to feel embarrassed. It doesn’t mean that you should not “reprimand” the child (or preferably discuss the situation with them and how it could be handled better) – what it does mean is that if possible you should be more sensitive to the feelings of your child and discuss it with them privately. Why humiliate him in public? Humiliation is not a good tool for teaching.

    No, I don’t agree with you that going after the speakers a second time was an “obedience” issue. I don’t think that toddlers should be expected to obey every command. It’s not developmentally appropriate. Toddlers have a very natural need to explore their world – a need not so dissimilar from the need to urinate or the need for regular feeding. Toddlers aren’t adults – they can’t perfectly remember commands and they can’t always perfectly control their actions and their need to explore. Even some adults have trouble with this. That doesn’t mean that they should be struck for it. Disobedience doesn’t “deserve” punishment, it requires teaching (sometimes on the part of the parents as well as the child – sometimes children disobey for good reasons).

    Let me give you an example with my spirited toddler. When she was first exposed to cats, she would grab their skin and try to pull it off. This was obviously not a good situation, for the cat or for her (if the cat would decide to take offense). It didn’t take very many instances of us removing her hands from the cats, gently patting the cat with her hands and with ours, smiling at her, and saying “Gentle” for her to figure out that the way to interact with a cat is to pat it, not brutalize it. She wasn’t initially trying to hurt the cat. She was just curious and wanted to explore it – a very natural thing for a baby. Now she does not brutalize the cat and when she meets other toddlers she pats them gently as well. We were able to teach her this using consistency, kindness to her and the cat, providing a good example, and showing her how to properly interact with the cat. If the rough behavior returns again, I expect that we will be able to successfully address it in a similar manner.

    Now, imagine that, instead, we took a different approach and spanked her when she rough-housed with the cat. What do you think that she would learn from this? I think that she would learn the following lessons
    – “Mommy and Daddy hurt me and I don’t understand why,”
    – “Mommy and Daddy hurt me when I try to grab the cat,”
    – “I’d better not grab the cat when Mommy and Daddy are around” (when we’re not watching it would be a totally different story for the hapless cat),
    – “Mommy and daddy aren’t safe – they hurt me and I can’t trust them.”
    These impressions could very easily translate as she grows (of course depending on other influences as well, some of which are outside the control of parents) into:
    – “It’s okay to hurt others who are weaker than you”
    – “Violence is a good answer to problems, even problems that may have other obvious solutions”
    – “You can’t trust people – even when they say they love you, they hurt you”
    – “It’s okay for my husband to hit me – he says he loves me and he’s usually nice to me.”
    – “Always obey anyone who has power over you” (at least while the authority figure is watching)
    – “I’ll have to be sneaky and go behind my parents back to do what they won’t let me do”
    – “I’m a bad person” (which could easily turn into a self-fulfilling prophecy – once you believe something about yourself, you are more likely to act that way)

    I have met a lot of children and adults who were the results of CP-style punishment. In general (not always), but in general compared to other children who were well-raised and whose parents didn’t have any other obvious/severe parenting deficiencies, these children are:
    – intolerant
    – less kind/empathetic
    – rigid in their thinking (unable to seriously consider or think about options that go against what their particular authority figures teach them)
    – more likely to obey authority figures without question, regardless of what they are being told to do.

    Since your goal is to raise moral children, please, do a little research and consider ways of parenting your children that may be an improvement on the way you were brought up. Maybe after all the research and introspection you will conclude that CP is needed in your situation. But at least you will have given the matter the attention that it deserves. By research I mean reading authors with opinions different than your own, doing careful observation of children, looking at studies (which are based on a lot more examples than the few people you and encounter), and talking with your children. And try to learn a little more about science. Science is based on observations of the world around us, it’s just done in a more rigorous way than saying “well, I turned out ok, so CP must be great. That’s logically akin to saying “well, I broke one of my fingers, but overall I’m healthy and I can compensate for that finger – so there’s no problem with breaking a finger.”

    Saying that “I never did drugs and my parents practiced CP, therefore CP is ok” doesn’t mean that CP won’t influence some kids to do drugs. I happen to know a lot of kids (most of the kids who went to my dad’s very authoritarian church, actually) who had parents committed to practicing CP in a kind, loving manner and who did end up doing drugs and rebelling in pretty much every way they could whenever they were out from under the “iron hand” that controlled them. The more controlled the kid, the more this was likely to happen. Not that this is any more conclusive than your “I never did drugs” example. That’s what scientific studies are for – to try to take into account as many examples as possible, while allowing for the fact that people are influenced by a huge number of factors. Dismissing science is basically embracing ignorance and trying to believe that everyone else’s experience is exactly the same as yours. Maybe that’s more comfortable for some people, but it is certainly not a very accurate way to look at the world. And it’s not very healthy for the rest of us who are expected to conform to your experience.

    Of course science doesn’t have all the answers – science is very data-oriented, not value-oriented. Ritalin is forced down the throats of kids so that they will conform to the needs of their parents and the schools without respect for their needs. But the science that says that “if you give them this medicine, they will do this X% of the time” is generally fairly accurate. If you are looking for data that considers more than your narrow experience, peer-reviewed scientific studies are a good place to start looking. As an alternative, you could try to significantly expand your experience. Psychiatric info can give you food for thought and investigation and help expand your experience. Personally, I happen to agree that a lot of past and psychiatric thought is inaccurate. That doesn’t mean that I don’t read it and consider it in the context of my own life and experiences. I have learned a lot that way – if you try it, you may as well.

    BTW – you might try discussing this type of thing based on actual analysis and reason rather than trying to trivialize the subject being discussed by calling it “little” or calling the commenter “dear.” These types of writing usually demean the writer and imply that their arguments are so weak that they have to resort to random insults.

  • APMama,
    Very well stated. Another scenario would be where the mother walks in the kitchen- little girl sitting on the floor with flour, sugar, eggs, and milk spilled all over the place. Mom grabs her, slaps the back of her hand a few times. She just may have ruined the career of the greatest pastry chef to ever exist.
    This is a no brainer people- don’t hit your kids.

  • Another thing that is easily overlooked.
    None of you can know what kind of coping skills this kid will have and how he will interperet the traumatic event when she gets older.
    Since you might be creating a monster it is only logical that you do not hit your kids. You teach them it is ok to hit.
    Since they are not old enough to reason at those young ages then it follows that they will go by the example alone and not equate the pain with the parents intentions. There is far more risk associated with CP than there is prospect for gain.
    In my case, I have five grown kids. Never laid a hand on one of them.
    They are well adjusted. I can tell that because none of them has borrowed any money from me since they finished their educations. !

  • Dale, if you can’t reason with children, how then do you discipline a two-year-old? Just a simple question….

    Also, I think maybe what is being missed here is the fact that most parents that practice CP don’t just haul off and whack their kid with no explanation whatsoever.
    My sister-in-law just gave me a good example. She has 2 daughters, one is 3 the other will be 2 next month. Since they are both so close in age they are relatively fascinated by the same things. Books, especially. As with most siblings, sharing is always an issue. Of course, the older is forced into being the one to do the sharing most of the time. However, scuffles do come about. Big sister doesn’t always want to share with little sister and will inevitably breaks the rules in some way, shape, or form.
    My sister-in-law doesn’t just whack big sister on the bottom. She takes her to her room, sits her down, explains to her that what she did was wrong, she needs to be loving to her little sister, yada, yada, yada. Then she gets her spanking, has to come down to apologize to baby sister, and sister-in-law always does what she calls restoring the relationship. This is much like what adults do after a disagreement. They reconcile. Talk it out (as much as you can with a 3-yr-old) and then big sister is back to her normal self.
    My parents practiced CP in the same way. CP should not just be a “whack and run” mentality. It is for the most patient of parents. Parents who have the time to actually raise their children. Sister-in-law is a stay-at-home mom. So was mine. They took the time necessary to properly raise us or “Shephard our Hearts” This is more than scaring your kids into respecting you or making them do what you want them. It’s about enabling them through love and discipline to make the right choices in life. They won’t do that unless they are taught the difference between right and wrong which is a learned lesson that is the product of proper discipline.

  • I host a website, http://www.nopaddle.com, about school corporal punishment, i.e. “paddling” in the US, i.e. to avoid all euphemisms, school staff striking a child or adolescent’s or young adult’s buttocks with a board. This still goes on in some 21 US states, and is most heavily used in former US heavy slave states.

    Many of the issues regarding “spanking” at home are common with the problems of paddling at school. Chief are that violence is immeasurable so it is impossible to define abuse ahead of time, even for proponents, and it is impossible to devise any method that will be free of physical harm. Secondly it is a sexual violation that can be put in denial, but never eliminated. The problem gets worse as the victims get older but it is never removed.

    Also spanking and paddling are promoted by false teachings, often by those I call “Old Testawhackalists” like Dobson who selectively pull quotes out of the Old Testament that they can use to advocate hitting children and pretend those quotes are “Christian quotes,” while never doing such with other Old Testament practices such as animal sacrifices, stoning people to death for violating the Sabbath, legalized beating to death of slaves, etc.

    The “age old practice” grew out of centuries of Inquisition and slavery in Europe and the US where ritual torture was “Christianized.” There is no New Testament verse that advocates anyone hit anyone, even a parent to a child.

    Jeff Charles
    http://www.nopaddle.com

  • Laura,
    First of all, Jeff’s comments above are right on the mark. Spanking is violence, plain and simple and is only used by people who do not have the capacity to think logically, cannot control their tempers, have a mental illness/ fetish/ perversion or are controlled by some illogical belief system.

    I am glad you asked; if you don’t spank how do you discipline?
    I’m going to make this brief as I am tired of supplying links all the time and everybody ignores them. I’m tired of babysitting for people who are trapped in their illogical belief system, so look it up for yourself but here goes- You can buy books on human development- then read them! What a novel idea!
    There are several good authors that even imply that a tap on the butt for a two year old to interupt an unacceptable behaviour is OK. I ignore that. Other authors do not endorse corporal punishment in any manner.
    Here is a great place to start:
    http://rosemond.com/index.php
    We must undertand ourselves and what our goals are before we can even begin to raise and discipline a child correctly.
    There are only a few basic tenets that one needs to understand and to apply.
    One stragedy that I used very successfully was what I will call the parent sacrifice stragedy. It can be applied to most situations if you are creative, but, it does involve some sacrifice on your part.
    When my youngest son was two and a half he started acting out in the supermarket. On a particular occasion we had decided we were going to treat ourselves (wife, me, and the boy) to a supper and I was going to the supermarket with my son to buy the stuff we wanted. I told him on the way that if he behaved badly I would put all the stuff back on the shelf and we would go home and have cheese sandwiches for supper. Of course, he misbehaved and was warned but ultimately I put the stuff back and we went home. We made him aware that because of his bad manners all three of us had to suffer, but, we helped him through his disapointment. He cried, Mom cried. We moved on.
    Now, that kid never, and I mean never again acted out in a store again. In fact, after that, it was much fun to take him shopping and continues in that manner until this very day fifteen years later.
    I’m a huge believer in time outs also, with a twist. When the kid has a time out, my wife or I would share the time out. Take in a book and show that we are there to support them, but the time out will be honored.
    Over time we phased out the parental sacrifice part as the kids developed their coping skills. Also the need for time outs became exceedingly rare after age five.
    I’ve gone on too long for a blog but I hoped to show how I raised 5 independent and self disciplined kids- And I never laid a hand on one of them. I can only say that this worked for me because I studied it, and committed to it.

  • By the way, and this is a most satisfying fact in my life. I have six grandchildren and not one of them has ever been spanked. They are happy and well adjusted like their parents!
    Over the years, in social situations I always was surprised to see how my kids and grand kids assimilated ino a social scene. They never looked like they were shy or embarrased and would partake in conversation etc. in a very self assured manner.
    On the other hand, I have seen kids who I know to have been routinely spanked that never seem to be comfortable in social situations.
    I know that is acecdotal evidence but it too overwheming for me to ignore after all I have seen.

  • Dale, I believe that what is being ignored (not necessarily by you, just generally speaking) here is that just as you’ve got “evidence” to support your way of doing things, so do people who’ve practiced CP. To criticize one for their practices when their evidence is just as valid as yours obviously smacks of an unwillingness to admit that parenting is subjective. That practices that some parents use may be right for their kids in spite of the fact that other parents disagree with it.
    Just as I’m sure you’re proud of the fact that your children and grandchildren are upstanding citizens, my parents and grandparents can say the exact same thing, and they practiced CP.

  • Yes, Laura, I agree to a point, but most psycologists will tell you that the potential for harm is greater than the potential for gain with CP because there is no way to evaluate how a young child will cope with violence (I am assuming that by spanking they mean to cause pain.)
    I can’t empathize with those of you who were spanked as kids because my parents never laid a hand on me either.
    I remember a couple times my mom chasing me through the house with a wooden spoon but I don’t remember her actually using it on me!
    So, if one looks at it in a logical manner I feel it would be much better to have a family tradition of not spanking. Hurting a child teaches them it is OK to hurt.

  • Spanking argument #1 – “Spanking is an effective way to manage behavior”

    Hitting a small child will usually stop misbehavior. However, other ways of discipline such as verbal correction, reasoning, and time-out work as well and do not have the potential for harm that hitting does. Hitting children may actually increase misbehavior. One large study showed that the more parents spanked children for antisocial behavior, the more the antisocial behavior increased (Straus, Sugarman, & Giles-Sims, 1997). The more children are hit, the more likely they are to hit others including peers and siblings and, as adults, they are more likely to hit their spouses (Straus and Gelles, 1990; Wolfe, 1987). Hitting children teaches them that it is acceptable to hit others who are smaller and weaker. “I’m going to hit you because you hit your sister” is a hypocrisy not lost on children.

    For the rest of these arguments check out this site- very informative:

    http://www.stophitting.com/disathome/factsAndFiction.php

  • Studies show that even a few instances of being hit as children are associated with more depressive symptoms as adults (Strauss, 1994, Strassberg, Dodge, Pettit & Bates, 1994). A landmark meta-analysis of 88 corporal punishment research studies of over six decades showed that corporal punishment of children was associated with negative outcomes including increased delinquent and antisocial behavior, increased risk of child abuse and spousal abuse, increased risk of child aggression and adult aggression, decreased child mental health and decreased adult mental health (Gershoff, 2002). While most of us who were spanked “turned out OK”, it is likely that not being spanked would have helped us turn out to be healthier.
    Please don’t hurt your kids.

  • If this blog is truly a part of the “reality based community,” then please consider the following. Corporal punishment has been studied for the past half century. Yet despite all the studies which have been done, no one has yet managed to produce any empirical evidence of any form of measurable long term benefit to children from spanking. Not one such study exists in any peer reviewed journal.

    From time to time a study appears which certain elements in the media spin as evidence in favor of spanking. Without fail, an examination of the original paper fails to bear this out. So before anyone attempts to refute my assertion with a citation, please do us both a favor and read the original paper rather than just repeating something you read in US News & World Report, or saw on Fox.

    Meanwhile, the evidence linking “spanking” to a wide range of long term ill effects on children continues to mount: alcoholism, spousal abuse, antisocial behavior, suicidal ideation, masochism, substance abuse. Children who were never spanked are disproportionately likely NOT to wind up in prison as adults.

    No one “deserves” to be hit and hurt, no matter how poorly behaved they are. To argue otherwise is to step directly onto the slippery slope leading to apologetics for Abu Graib style “enhanced interrogation.”

  • Wait… causing the death of a dog is mean ? I don’t know about you, but if someone arranged for the death/attack of a animal/human/whatever, I wouldn’t consider it “mean”. I’d consider it disturbing among other things. Mean would be kicking the dog. Not killing it indirectly.

  • I just wanted to comment on the awesome posts by APMama. When people look at their own lives in an honest way, as this poster has done, there is powerful lucidity that results. It takes a brave person to recognize that one’s own parents were people, not perfect, and perhaps they did some things wrong. APMama has explored the impact spanking had on her. Her decision to not spank her own children is a heroic choice to break a destructive cycle.

    What happens to many people who were hit as children is that the fear, shame and sadness are so overwhelming they cannot bear it. So they dissociate from their bodies and close off the emotions, and identify with the spanker. Identification with an aggressor after an early frightening experience of pain is the core root of the authoritarian personality. Not everyone who is spanked becomes a “wing nut,” but if the spanking is unexamined, there is a tendency to either feel a lot of confusing negative feelings later in life, or to get some sort of relief by seeing others punished.

    Susan Forward in her book, “Toxic Parents,” says that when a parent hits his or her child, the parent is taking out on his or her own children the unconscious rage the parent feels from the experience of being spanked in childhood. The child becomes the stand-in for the parent’s parent.

    This is why it is so imperative to examine one’s own experience, or else you will be putting a lot of stuff on a child’s shoulders that he or she does not deserve.

  • I noticed that Dr. Dobson didn’t offer anywhere on his hateful website to post any comments…guess he wants a dictatoral say in only what he believes to be the truth.

    He cites people who HAVE “dated” same sex, but then CHANGED to being straight…guess he missed out on class the day the term BI-SEXUAL was discussed.

    When I came out as a Lesbian over 17 years ago, I wondered if I might be bi-sexual. Although my “practical” experience had been with men, I had also been attracted to women since I was about 15 years of age…I just didn’t really know what to do or how to act on my feelings.

    I decided to pray about it and did daily, on my knees for about 30 days. After the 30 days I felt an answer that loving women was not a problem for God, but that Loving people was the ultimate goal.

    As you might guess, this is the shortened version of the Answer I received to my prayers for understanding. I wanted to know if accepting and living as a Lesbian would be an afront to God and to the Gift of Life his Son had died to give me.

    I believe with all my heart that I got an answer, a clear, simple, answer and that’s why I “became” what I was. More important to be honest and love truely, than to lie or love false. If you are a Christian, it really isn’t that hard to figure out which lifestyle pleases God most…he’s kinda set on loving and honesty.

  • To the last few posters,
    Right on!!!

    Dobson’s childhood environment was a breeding ground for sociopathic personality disorder.
    Not only does he not accept comments on the site but he doesn’t grant interviews with the media. It’s just too easy to shoot holes in his arguments.
    Some people will say, how can a person with that much education go that far with his irrational beliefs? I guess it is a bit like Mel Gibson. With all the press on his fundy catholic faith, who knew he was a bigoted alchoholic?
    Meglomaniacs aspire to these kind of positions and, in fact they do posess a great amount of drive and determination, albeit misguided.
    I’ll bet everyone here has had contact with a socialized sociopath. It is surprising how they can go up through the ranks, then, ultimately crash and burn. The first thing you notice about a sociopath is they are super manipulative and they dominate people with a mortal graciousness.
    Please don’t hurt your kids.

  • What is a socialized psycopath (sociopath)?

    Try this check list- Let me know if, in fact, you know some of these. Most people know of several. Many people are directly affected by one.
    The questionnaire itself is based on research and experiences of socialized psychopaths. For each trait, decide if it applies to the person you suspect may be a socialized psychopath, fully (2 points), partially (1 point) or not at all (0 points). A score of 25 or above suggests strong psychopathic tendencies.”

    1.Do they have problems sustaining stable relationships, personally and in business?

    2.Do they frequently manipulate others to achieve selfish goals, with no consideration of the
    effects on those manipulated?

    3.Are they cavalier about the truth, and capable of telling lies to your face?

    4.Do they have an air of self-importance, regardless of their true standing in society?

    5.Have they no apparent sense of remorse, shame or guilt?

    6.Is their charm superficial, and capable of being switched on to suit immediate ends?

    7.Are they easily bored and demand constant stimulation?

    8.Are their displays of human emotion unconvincing?

    9.Do they enjoy taking risks, and acting on reckless impulse?

    10.Are they quick to blame others for their mistakes?

    11.As teenagers, did they resent authority, play truant and/or steal?

    12.Do they have no qualms about sponging off others?

    13.Are they quick to lose their temper?

    14.Are they sexually promiscuous?

    15.Do they have a belligerent, bullying manner?

    16.Are they unrealistic about their long-term aims?

    17.Do they lack any ability to empathize with others?

  • Gosh Dale, that sounds just like Bill Clinton! And to think, he was voted into office twice. What does that say about those that voted for him?

  • There is only one person in 5,000 that is educated in psycology to the point where they would know of this disorder. Also, one cannot make a clinical diagnosis without a direct interview, but the signes are still there.
    Just for fun, my score on Clinton was 18.

  • Dobson is driven by unhealthy shame. Adam and Eve is where the bible declares unhealthy shame as a source of severe emotional and mental illnesses. Adam and Eve went about their business unclad and without shame until they covered their private part with fig leaves for no reason other than unhealthy shame. This is how God is able to determine that unhealthy shame had entered into their mindset where non had existed before. That was the downfall. Dobson’s who motivation is unhealthy shame ,which is responsible for much of a society’s problems especially violence, bases his philosophy on external factors which deflect responsibiltiy from himself to a boogeyman satan or boogeyman god. In fact this is why he attrachs the people he does because it allows them to not be responsible by deflecting personal responsibiltiy for ones well being to external factors, or boogeymen. Dobson is a pretend christian[a harlot] with false doctrines[fornications ie:the rapture} and his ccongregation is of fools and their churches are gathering places of satan.

  • Whew! This so totally explains why Dobson is such a nutcase.

    Please indulge me with some background so I can make my point. The following is a perfect example of why Christianity is dangerous, and why Dobson’s interpretation of his so-called religion is equally dangerous – if not more so than the organized fear delivery systems already established.

    I grew up in the Deep South. My mother’s parents were both alcoholics. They produced three little alcoholics – one of which was my mother. On my father’s side is a long history of alcoholism as well. His parents were both ‘dry drunks’. Nonetheless, they managed to produce one if not two alcoholics, and one child that is now a fanatical Christian.

    Alcoholism and Christianity make terrible bedfellows. They double the fearmongering results.

    The chaos of my childhood with my two younger siblings was complete with divorce, multiple times; alcoholic bouts with shouting and derision; and the attempt to use church as a way ‘out’ of the chaos.

    Of course, since Christianity/church/fundamentalism is a total and abject failure, based on myths and outright lies the attempt to use church as a way out of the chaos was an abject failure as well.

    Fast forward to present day. I long ago removed myself from the badly coded template called the Deep South. I was extremely lucky to not inherit the alcoholism gene. Somehow it skipped me. I can look into the depths of my desperate family and see what’s going on. Something they cannot do. They still live in the Deep South. They are totally and completely imprinted with fundamentalist Christianity. And the ones that inherited the alcoholism gene have given way to its sway.

    Now, to my point. Some of you have made this connection already. I’m providing some background to show how the setup works later in life.

    I have two sisters who have fully imprinted onto Christianity because of their chaotic childhood. There was such a mess in our family while we were growing up that they use Christianity as a ‘foundation’. It never changes. It’s always the same. It has firm rules and regulations. It’s said to be absolute. They fully embrace fundamentalist Christianity because it’s a substitute for their failed upbringing. This is exactly what Dobson is doing. He is substituting his failed upbringing with a strict authoritian style that he had decided – because he’s nothing more than a schoolyard bully – that you need it, too.

    My sisters use Christian principles to raise their kids. Home schooling, spankings, Bible study, Bible Summer School, strict rules at home, etc. The kids are in total fear of ‘otherness’ as a result. It affects their thinking and ability to form opinions. If forces them into a box. All institutions are to be worshipped because they represent ‘majority opinion’. It kills their kids’ joy and destroys any hope of a creative life. This the is the PURPOSE of Christianity. It is anathema to a good life. It is destructive to the next generation when it’s forced on kids. My opinion is that it’s child abuse.

    The people who most ardently express Christian opinions and principles all seem to have grown up chaotic families or in destructive situations. Without fail, all of the people who are the most prominent ‘leaders’ in the organized fear delivery systems called churches in this country are desperately, yet unconsciously seeking normalcy for a failed childhood.

    If only they could just look within and find their peace. But alas, they’re so steeped, covered and infused with their sad layering of myths, rules and lies, along with the pain and suffering of their childhoods, they can’t find the path toward happiness. So, they foist their opinions on the rest of us, pry money from hundreds of thousands of people using the techniques they acquired in childhood (fear, bullying, etc) and then force anti-life legislation onto the nation.

    All because they’re damaged goods.

    This is what America is all about now. Damaged goods pretending to be Presidents, leaders, etc. You didn’t bother to vote and we have psychologically deranged people with their fingers on the red button, supporting needless wars, or on your school board pushing anti-science agendas, or raising children and telling you how Jesus Would Paddle Them.

    Unless you vote, these people like Dobson will continue to eat up valuable bandwidth on our airwaves. You will buy into their lies and distortions and continue to be pushed around by them.

    If you vote to remove all of them from public offices their minions like Dobson will have no voice left to push their anti-life agenda onto the rest of us.

    You know what you need to do.

  • APmama, you still haven’t addressed how some kids under CP turn out to be wonderful children

    Alice Miller says it’s because they have (what she calls) a helping witness in childhood or an enlightened witness in adulthood.— someone who helps them understand that they are in fact worthy of love, and that they have a perfect right to resent the abuse and be mad at their abusers.

  • Yes Captain Slack, but what if the parents that are spanking are the ones telling them that they are worthy of love? AND they turn out to be wonderful people, then what? My only point here is that no absolute judgment that can be made on the parenting style of spanking. It is my parents who were able to express love to me, my parents who raised me to believe that I am worth the best and should accept nothing less than that, and they practiced CP. These are not contradictory things here.
    BTW Mark, I find your hatred and obvious ignorace about Christianity somewhat disturbing. First of all, before you are so quick to jump on the “boogeyman” track, you should know that there are scholars who do not practice Christianity that have basically proven the existance of Jesus and his miracles. Christianity is recorded in history, not just the Bible, so to disregard it so quickly is childish and immature.
    You said:
    “My sisters use Christian principles to raise their kids. Home schooling, spankings, Bible study, Bible Summer School, strict rules at home, etc. The kids are in total fear of ‘otherness’ as a result. It affects their thinking and ability to form opinions. If forces them into a box. All institutions are to be worshipped because they represent ‘majority opinion’. It kills their kids’ joy and destroys any hope of a creative life. This the is the PURPOSE of Christianity. It is anathema to a good life. It is destructive to the next generation when it’s forced on kids. My opinion is that it’s child abuse.”

    Really? The Purpose of Christianity is to stifle creative thinking and to fear otherness?
    Proverbs 1:1-5 says

    The proverbs of Solomon son of David, king of Israel:
    2 for attaining wisdom and discipline;
    for understanding words of insight;
    3 for acquiring a disciplined and prudent life,
    doing what is right and just and fair;
    4 for giving prudence to the simple,
    knowledge and discretion to the young-
    5 let the wise listen and add to their learning,
    and let the discerning get guidance-

    Now according to that scripture it sounds like seeking knowledge or being “open minded” isn’t so bad after all, and that my friend, is straight from the Bible, the Book of Christianity.
    Also Mark, let me ask you a question. If, and please let this be hypothetical, someone that you didn’t know, saved your life, for no apparant reason, wouldn’t you do everything in your power to find out more about that person? What they’re about? Who they are? Why they did it? This is a natural human reaction.
    So then, if, as Chrisitanity states, all people are damned to an eternity in hell without the help of Jesus who dies to save us from that eternity, is it abnormal for one to attempt to learn about the one who saved us? Is it absurd for one who believes to want their children to believe also? Absolutely not!
    Would you not raise your children in such a fashion that went along with what you believe? It doesn’t have to be religious, it could be political, it could be the “golden rule”. No parent raises their child to believe something that they strongly disagree with. Do they?
    Why then, do you find it so odd that your sister would send HER children to a bible study or a bible camp? If your sister were Jewish would you think her to be odd to teach her child about the Torah. Or if she were Muslim about the Quran?
    It seems that you have an affinity towards disliking Christianity without possesing any true knowledge of it’s teachings or practices.
    Regardless of your family history and it’s affiliation with Christianity, it doesn’t mean that your family’s actions are in line with Christian teaching. “…do not be given to drunkenness…” the bible also speaks against divorce, lying, stealing, cheating, hatred, and murder. Just because some of your family members (and mine!) may commit these sins doesn’t mean that they are perfect examples of what Christianity should be.
    But here’s a secret. NO Christian is a perfect example of what a Christian should be because noone is perfect. Jesus is the only man who should be looked at for how a Christian should act, because he WAS PERFECT.

    If you expect perfection from humans you will be sorely dissapointed every time.
    Instead of being convinced that all Christians are closed-minded maybe YOU should open your mind and really research what they believe, I think that you might be shocked at your findings.

  • I wouldn’t be surprised if someday a link is found between people who believe in CP and those with below-average intelligence.

  • DJ,
    A little evidence to the contrary.
    My in-laws practiced CP.
    My fiance got a 1200 on his SAT’s, has his bachelor’s degree in Criminal Justice and is in the process of becoming a State Police Officer. Oh, and he’s bilingual.
    His Sister got just over a 1300 on her SAT’s she’s a nurse and she’s bilingual too.
    His brother got just over 1500 on his SAT’s. He received his bachelors from an IV league school, his MBA from Villanova and he’s an engineer. Oh, he’s also bilingual.
    Any questions?

  • High SAT scores are not that meaningful in terms of being a gauge of a person’s inner wholeness. People can often function adequately in school environments and on the worksite even though inside they are torn. Many adults who were spanked, mentally deal with it by making the next generation experience the same thing. The adult projects his/her shadow emotions … putting the anger and grief he’s too afraid to deal with into aggressive actions that cause someone else pain. It is interesting that having a smaller person to vent on helps the adult to hide from himself or herself longer, postponing the encounter with one’s own feelings.

    As for the long-term impacts of “helpful spankings,” please go to http://www.nospank.net/carol2htm and read Carol’s letter, “Non-abusive ‘Loving Spankings’ Messed Me Up For Life.” She says that her mother would have described her as a model student and an obedient daughter, but spankings left long-term invisible harm.

    Don’t hit your kids.

    S.N.

    “Any form of corporal punishment or ‘spanking’ is a violent attack upon another human being’s integrity.” – Ashley Montagu

  • Laura, I would have to agree with JD. I am a music major at Dana college. Getting good grades has never been a problem for me. I even made the dean’s list!
    Most important of all, my abilities as an inspirer and heartwarmer are known by many. None of this, however, automatically makes me unaltered by the few
    spankings I received. I am utterly withdrawn, I don’t feel loved, (I only recognized this after being asked during a survey for a mentoring program), my
    signs of affection are fake, (especially when directed toward my parents), and I can’t trust many people, even when I know they are trustworthy. Having
    the feeling that my food has been spat on is not uncommon. Assertiveness, how I wish I had it. There is no question in my mind that I would have turned
    out better without being hit. Even today, my problem-solving skills are horrible. So, Laura, anyone can get excellent grades and lead a seemingly flawless
    life and claim that corporal punishment actually helped. It’s what’s deep inside that matters. Admission of these feelings was once unacceptable to me.
    Now, however, I feel strong, because I have read the stories and looked at the research. The stories purely reflected that of my own and the research let
    me look deeper into my families barbarous past. No wonder so many of them abused or were abused by so-called lovers and did not want to seek help or get
    out of the relationship, (they felt it was normal). Oh. If wifebeating were leagle today, how many wives would claim that they turned out all right and
    that they deserved it when they got it? What arguments did wifebeaters use to oppose those who opposed them? They used the exact same arguments that you
    ar using to defend the violation of children, Laura. Please, remember that. Also, we can’t even hit domesticated animals. It’s time to stop putting our
    children last!

  • Fuck James Dobson
    If I had been around when he started the dog fight, I would have instituted a little corporal punishment of my own, I would have beat the piss out of him.

    Hey Laura You don’t know if Jesus WAS PERFECT you’ve never met him. If I am wrong and you have met him ask him who he likes for the world series.

    Well off to the porn hunt

  • Wow…he did that to one dog? Man he must be a psycho. Now I’m not standing up for Dobson because I agree with him in any way but this post is just one cheap shot after another and doesn’t say anything worthwhile. You have to remember that when Dobson was growing up just about every child was punished with corporal punishment, and plenty of his peers turned out just fine. And to make a connection between being mean to 1 dog and him being a psycho is just ludicrous. You’re obviously just pissed off about something and it made you feel better to make a half-assed post thinking that you were actually saying something relevant and intelligent. Dr. James Dobson is the way he is for the same reason so many people are the way they are today. Some confused mind a long time ago made up a story and started to believe it. Religion is a product of a human mind in a time in which we have no idea who we are or where we came from, or how a star works, or even what that small point of light is. I’m not saying we have all the answers by any means but we do know a lot more than we used to and until the whole world realizes that religion is bogus and we can focus on more important things, such as advancing the entire human race instead of becoming a stagnant society of god fearing sheep, we’re going to have people like Dobson.

  • at least I agree with Dobson that children need a mother and a father, and this is what liberals don’t seem to care about. They only want to promote this “alternative” behavior and turn America into a Communist nation. We need people like Dobson to prevent it from happening.

  • James Dobson is a well-educated Christian man and so am I. Many of his practices are proven and the Bible is his basis of belief. The Bible states that Jesus was perfect. Do I believe that everything Dr.Dobson states is how it should be – NO, but at least he is trying to help out a country with decining morals. To those with posts above using Jesus in the same postings with four lettered curse words really need the corporal punishment. Let those who have not sinned cast the first stone. Read the Bible befoer you quote off garbage that Jesus wasn’t perfect. The Bible is believed upon with faith. You have faith everyday in something – that your car will start, that the light will come on, that you’ll wake up the next day.

  • Oh WOW! you mean Dr.Dobson is a normal human being who acted IMPERFECTLY to his parents? Or who actualaly bullied someone in school? WOW, you mean he’s not as perfect as GOD? He’s just a voice for him! What difference does it make what Dobson did as a young person? You hateful people need something better to do.

  • Dobson is messed up, I think everyone in north america know this. Oh, btw, Jesus-Freaks, remember your savior’s first miracle….

  • And CP is cool only when PREVENTING harm to a child, like swatting their hand away from stove top, or restraining a child who has become violent towards another, or when the littles shites decide to hit their parents.

  • Comments are closed.