Before McCain gets the GOP nomination…

January 4, 2008

It’s not at all unusual for high-profile Republicans, including most of the party’s presidential candidates, to insist that we simply “stay the course” in Iraq. There have been some encouraging trends in violence in recent months, and if we just stick with it, political reconciliation will catch up and the policy will pay dividends. If we leave prematurely, they say, the ensuing catastrophe will be even worse than the status quo.

There is, of course, an obvious question in response: how much longer should we be expected to remain patient? The conservative answer, though it remains largely unstated, is simple: indefinitely. We have to maintain the current policy, they say, until it works. If it’s not working, that means we haven’t waited long enough.

Routinely, the GOP’s rhetoric focuses on three- and six-month increments (“If we don’t see improvements over the next 90 days…”). Once in a while, the White House will talk about a longer-term occupation — the “Korean Model” — though most Republicans shy away from telling voters U.S. troops will still be in Iraq in 2050.

That is, except John McCain. From an event in New Hampshire yesterday:

Q: President Bush has talked about our staying in Iraq for 50 years — ” (cut off by McCain)

McCain: “Make it a hundred.”

Q: “Is that …” (cut off)

McCain: “We’ve been in South Korea … we’ve been in Japan for 60 years. We’ve been in South Korea 50 years or so. That would be fine with me. As long as Americans …”

Q: [tries to say something]

McCain: “As long as Americans are not being injured or harmed or wounded or killed. That’s fine with me, I hope that would be fine with you, if we maintain a presence in a very volatile part of the world where Al Queada is training and equipping and recruiting and motivating people every single day.

This is wrong on several levels.

First, I can’t imagine what McCain means when he says he’ll support a century-long presence “as long as Americans are not being injured or harmed or wounded or killed.” As Meteor Blades put it:

Could you recall for us, Senator, how many Americans were killed by resistance forces in postwar Korea, Japan and Germany? Slip your mind? Well, the number is zero. In Iraq last year, 901 Americans in uniform lost their lives.

That fantasy of a serene Pax Americana is the kind of world you and your hug-buddy George Bush would love to persuade us we can have, with no casualties, no sacrifice. Another Republican illusion abetted by your new hug-buddy Joe Lieberman.

Second, there’s the politics of this. A leading Republican presidential candidate is promising voters — in public and on camera — that he’s prepared to keep U.S. troops in Iraq until 2108. If McCain’s the GOP nominee, expect an ad or two about this. (He told David Corn after the event that U.S. troops could be in Iraq for “a thousand years” or “a million years,” as far as he was concerned.)

And third, it’s also worth remembering that McCain can’t quite seem to make up his mind — he’s been for, against, and for again a multi-decade troop presence.

Remember, he’s the foreign-policy expert of the Republican presidential field.

January 4, 2008 at 11:21 am

All the Republicans who say this should be cursed with children who want to spend six years or more pursuing their undergrad degrees, and to use a similar line on their parents to rationalize it.

Let the beer balls roll!

That noise you hear is the sound of military enlistment dropping like a brick.

As long as Americans are not being injured or harmed or wounded or killed. That’s fine with me, I hope that would be fine with you, if we maintain a presence in a very volatile part of the world where Al Queada is training and equipping and recruiting and motivating people every single day.

I could be wrong but I would describe the other places where US forces are based as “not volatile.” But in Majikal McCaniac Land, you can have troops in a volatile region where in addition to the tarrists who weren’t there before we showed up, the Iraqis themselves want us the fuck out and he thinks there’s a possibility no one will get hurt.

I imagine this could happen if we built huge forts and the soldiers never ventured outside but then the question becomes why the fuck are they there at all?

Fucking nutcase.

You are putting your own spin on this story and you know as well as I do that the United States Military has and continues to have a Peace-keeping Military presence in Korea as well as several other countries and that this is what McCain was referring to and you are trying to turn it around to suit your agenda. You are as big a jerk as your candidate Romney.

but pulling 13% of an underattended caucus really gives him “joementum!”

I read articles like this and my thought is, who is Mike Huckabee most proud of beating last night? The liars, the crooks, the phonies, or the idiots?

Why doesn’t McCain just swing for the fences and proclaim a 1,000 year American Reich in Iraq. Now that would be some bravado! Only 100 years? That would mean that this war only passes along to our grandkids and great-grand kids.

I do hope the Republicans keep all this crazy talk up. The nation needs to completely understand that today’s Republican Party is utterly insane. All of them.

McCAIN = The Manchurian Candidate???????

Of course that’s what he was referring to, Vicki. But our troops in United States Forces Korea are not being attacked on a daily basis. McCain’s use of South Korea as a model for a continuing U.S. troop presence in Iraq is both dumb and dangerous.

Please. Let any of these guys run for President as the Republican candidate. Let them continue to sell what America doesn’t want to buy.

Losers. Each and every one of them.

You are as big a jerk as your candidate Romney. -Vicki Hampton

Oh no! After all of our effort to conceal it, the meddling kids have unmasked us as the Romney supporters we all are!

Re # 7: Didn’t I say someone would bring that up?

Look, John McCain and Joe LIEberman both say THEY will tell us when America can leave Iraq. You see, they are the adults. They will know the right time to leave. They are the ones who can get America out with honor.

The rest of us (you know, America) don’t know when the right time is. We’re too impatient. If we pick the time to leave, that means America LOST in Iraq. We won’t have any honor left if we leave on our timeline.

Of course, being little liberal wusses, we might point out that there is no difference between leaving now and leaving one year, ten years, one hundred years or one thousand years from now. Americans will still have died in the last year of the occupation. Someone will still be an enemy of the occupation. Someone will still claim victory over America when we leave. And the Iraqis will still have an explosion of violence and bloodshed when we leave. No Matter What!

But according to McCain and LIEberman, we have to wait until THEY say it’s okay.

What are they waiting for? An Oil law that give 49% of the profits and control to American and British based multinationals (just like the Chicago School says they should).

“Senator, how many Americans were killed by resistance forces in postwar Korea, Japan and Germany”

Could someone clarify if we are experiencing “post war” Iraq yet? I thought your all wanted to “end the war.” Which means, that the war is still ongoing. I’m sure McCain was referring to maintaining a prensence is a stabilize yet volatile part of the world — hence the Korean comparison.

CB, I am shocked, shocked, to learn that Romney is your candidate, you big jerk! 🙂

If McCain is the Republican nominee, how I hope he sticks with his advocacy of a hundred-year presence in Iraq!

And if he tries to waffle, we’ve got it on tape, with his buddy Lieberman standing behind him.

“we’ve been in Japan for 60 years”

…As a deterrent against China and, for a while, the USSR. For the Persian Gulf, that would be the equivalent of bases in Qatar in Kuwait, i.e. nothing to do with Iraq.

As Meteor Blades put it:

Could you recall for us, Senator, how many Americans were killed by resistance forces in postwar Korea, Japan and Germany? Slip your mind? Well, the number is zero.

That’s demonstrably false, as a commenter pointed out to Meteor Blades.

Talk about building a straw man and then knocking it down.

McCain said that IF there are no deaths then it would be reasonable to keep the troops there for 100 years.

Meteor Blades says that we lost a lot of people during the last year.

Those two statements do not conflict.

IF, and I mean IF, we reduce the death rate to zero then it might make sense to keep troops there.

Is it possible to reduce the death rate that much? I doubt it.

The question for McCain should be, do you think it is the US’s interest to keep troops in Iraq and what do you think is an acceptable death rate .

McCain is kidding himself if he thinks the death rate can be reduced so far and he is really kidding himself to think that the death rate can drop to anywhere near zero during the next President’s first term

To be fair, I think McCain said “maybe a hundred” not “make it a hundred”. Doesn’t make it a lot less stupid, but “make it a hundred” would be insane, as opposed to just batshit crazy.

That said, I think the unstated answer is actually “until the oil runs out in all the neighboring countries.”

Kenneth Fair said: But our troops in United States Forces Korea are not being attacked on a daily basis. McCain’s use of South Korea as a model for a continuing U.S. troop presence in Iraq is both dumb and dangerous.

As a liberal who seems to know something about history, Kenneth, you should be aware that there was a time when our troops were attacked post-war. Ditto for those stationed in Germany and Japan following World War II.

No one wants to see US troops in Iraq forever, but it’s downright stupid to pretend that summarily yanking them out will not result in a lot more deaths to Iraq civilians.

I keep asking the antiwar left: Do you know would would happen in Iraq if we just withdrew all our troops? I never seem to get a straight answer – but that tells me that they know the answer.

If you withdraw the troops, you will have a bloodbath. If you reduce the numbers of troops with the inevitable end of the surge, you will have a bloodbath. The bloodbath seems to be a given. The question is what will encourage the Iraqi parties to work out their problems. Our presence demonstrably has not done that.

Did you bother to tell them about your hidden agenda for which you have resorted to twisting facts into the picture that you wanted to paint for them. You are a joke do you know that to resort to these levels of low to support your lying candidate Romney. You are as small a man as he is and just as dirty you minute little peon.
It is funny how only the comments that further your cause get shown isn’t it. What does that say? Oh and your anti-spam color should be yellow for that streak that runs up your back that you hide beneath a shirt but sooner or later I bet at least a couple of times that it has bled through because a coward can’t hide forever.

Meteor Blades wrote:

Well, the number is zero. In Iraq last year, 901 Americans in uniform lost their lives.

Since we invaded in March 2003, it’s over 3,900, for those of us who have lost count. And it looks like we’ve settled into a rut of about twenty kids a month now!

Paul in NJ, if you know about post-war casualties in Germany, Japan, and Korea, you know full-well they were nothing on the scale of what we’ve seen in Iraq. The German Werewolf ex-army group you may hear about on the Internet every once in a while was a pathetic effort that was quickly disposed of, and only inflicted a few casualties. If there was any kind of big resistance in those areas during our occupation, of course, everyone would remember it, without needing the prompting of Internet wackos who are out to twist the facts like you.

Vicki, I think you’ve lost it.

Paul in NJ, Jen answered your questions but I think I made the same point earlier. When we leave there will be a bloodbath. But there is one going on now, just in slow motion.

As for those who say we need to stay for honor, please explain to me how our honor is maintained when Bronze Star wearing NCO’s F**K and kill 20 year old PFCs in Iraq?

There is no honor to be maintained in Iraq when a fraction of our population is carrying all the burdens of this war. We aren’t even paying taxes to support it.

There is no victory to be achieved when al Qaeda is using Iraq as a recruiting poster.

There is only greed and delusional people who can’t see it.

I think Vicki is the coolest troll ever. Kudos!

Vicki, are you sure that you’re posting on the right blog? Your comments here are nothing short of bizarre. I read this blog every day, and I’ve never read a single kind word that this blogger has said about Mitt Romney.

Try this post on for size:

http://www.thecarpetbaggerreport.com/archives/13830.html

But don’t worry. The Carpetbagger hasn’t had much good to say about John McCain either. Or Giuliani. Or Huckabee. Or George W. Bush. He’s pretty much an equal-opportunity critic of Republican foolishness. 🙂

I keep asking the antiwar left: Do you know would would happen in Iraq if we just withdrew all our troops? I never seem to get a straight answer – but that tells me that they know the answer.

This anti-war leftie thinks William Odom said it best: It doesn’t matter what we do or how long we stay. People are going to die, lots of people are going to die and pretending the fact people are going to die is a reason to keep foreign soldiers over there is disingenous at best.

Bush’s pony quest is the equivalent of a person who starts a landslide and when the first village has been wiped off the mountainside says: “Dear me, what about the other people in the way?”

As a side note, I’d mention that I hear lots of people saying we have to keep the troops there to prevent a “blood bath” (because it’s only been a light shower so far) but not one peep do I hear from them about the refugee crisis over there.

I do not understand the argument that if we leave Iraq it will lead to a blood bath. Look at what has happened under our occupation. Christians that have not been slaughtered have fled the country. Neighborhoods that used to be mixed Sunni and Shiite are now segregated with the displaced becoming refugees. Iraq has been a blood bath under our rule and we have been fueling the blood bath with our policies such using torture. England is pulling out of their zone and violence has not erupted. The US went in on a Christian crusade to control Iraqi oil. Leaving will eliminate the source frustration with a foreign invader for the Iraqi people. Staying will only reinforce the perception that we are there for very selfish reasons.

Will someone please tell McCain that when you sell your soul the the Devil you are suppose to get something good for it, not Joe.

I am a Veteran and although I have never been in the real shit or a POW, I know that being close to the shit is fucken scary business and the last place I would ever stick anyone is in that position unless ALL other avenues have been exhausted.

But here is POW McCain wanting to send as many as it take for as long as it takes. I might be wrong, but he is the only person who has actually served in a war that is pushing the war, what gives John ??

One of Vicki’s permanent blog headlines says that “We should never forget nor take our nation or freedom for granite.” Perhaps she has New Hampshire, the Granite State, on her mind.

A typo in a hastily assembled blog is one thing. But a malapropism in a permanent headline? This is deficient English rivaling that of George W. Bush!

Hmmmm.

As I recall, an immediate withdrawal of troops was never something the majority of Dem politicians or American voters talked about. What was talked about were timelines and phased withdrawals. I still think that approach makes the most sense because (1) we don’t want to be there indefinitely, (2) the Iraqis don’t want us to be there indefinitely (3) we don’t have the human or fiscal resources to stay there indefinitely (4) most of us don’t want to leave the place worse than we found it — which it currently is. So arriving at mutually agreeable date by which Iraqis get their shit together and we get out of their country seems the only way out of a mess that we should have never gotten into in the first place.

Actually McCain’s comment makes perfect sense in the Republican universe. They are also in favor of eliminating taxes — if tax revenues would increase. In favor of eliminating Social Security —- if people will still have a decent retirement income. In favor of eliminating Medicare and Medicaid — if people will still have healthcare. Eliminate public schools — if everyone can go to private schools. etc. etc. etc.

PS: The good news is; I am going to have a lot more time for reading blogs because I am going to quit my job, if my income doesn’t go down.

On January 4th, 2008 at 12:02 pm, neil wilson said:
Talk about building a straw man and then knocking it down.

McCain said that IF there are no deaths then it would be reasonable to keep the troops there for 100 years.

Meteor Blades says that we lost a lot of people during the last year.

Those two statements do not conflict.

IF, and I mean IF, we reduce the death rate to zero then it might make sense to keep troops there.

__________

Ooooohhhhh…I get it. We keep troops in Iraq – to die – until no more troops die in iraq.

And then, we keep them there for another hundred years.

Well, that makes just as much sense as McCain saying ““As long as Americans are not being injured or harmed or wounded or killed. That’s fine with me, I hope that would be fine with you, if we maintain a presence in a very volatile part of the world where Al Queada is training and equipping and recruiting and motivating people every single day.”

because you see I always thought volatile meant unstable. And in an unstable part of the world, anything can happen. Like troops dying.

So it all goes back to that circuitous logic – our children must be sacrificed until our children don’t have to be sacrificed. We have to keep a presence in a violent part of the world, lest violent break out. It’s all such as joke, yet so no funny.

Why can’t any of the grownups in charge stop fibbing to us li’l children and admit it’s about the oil?

One of Vicki’s permanent blog headlines says that “We should never forget nor take our nation or freedom for granite.” -OFM

I had a hearty laugh at that, thanks for pointing it out!

So how long can the US military maintain its presence in Iraq? Not just the increased troops brought in by last year’s escalation, but just the number of troops in general.

From what I understand, the number of brigades that the Army has “ready for duty” (to use Bush’s expression in 2000) will not be sufficient enough to keep current troop levels past this spring/early summer.

I’ve come to the conclusion that this is the reason why you have the paying off of Sunnis, the extension of the Shia militia ceasefire (some backroom deals with Sadr are taking place, I’m sure), and the toning down of claims that Iran is supporting groups fighting the Americans. No actual stability, just the impression of stability.

Paint over the rust, and call it good.

One of Vicki’s permanent blog headlines says that “We should never forget nor take our nation or freedom for granite.” Perhaps she has New Hampshire, the Granite State, on her mind. –Okie, @28

Tombstones, more likely. Our price for “freeing” Iraq (of its oil).

A Democratic Congress?

The 2006 elections brought about support for a new Congress, namely, one which could end the war in Iraq – or so we thought. On January 22nd, this Congress voted another $189 billion for Bush’s two wars, ready for signature (W. Post, 1/27/08, p. F-7).

Not surprisingly, Halliburton showed a 16% increase in revenue for the last quarter (W. Post, 1/29/08, p. D-2).

Somehow the TV media forgot to mention either. The American people should not be consumed by possible presidential candidates, but need to focus more on the Congressional candidates running this fall! Also, and even more importantly, check on who is paying the tab for all of these candidates.

A.J.W., Falls Church

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