Behind closed doors, Clinton blasts the ‘activist base of the Democratic Party’

There’s always been at least some tension between Hillary Clinton and the Democratic Party’s activist base. Clinton is perceived as something of a moderate, reluctant to fight aggressively for progressive causes, and who backed the war in Iraq, without conceding the mistake.

But if the hostility was awkward before, it’s about to get considerably worse. The Huffington Post reported last night on remarks Clinton delivered at a closed-door fundraiser after Super Tuesday. An obtained audio recording — it’s unclear precisely where or when the fundraiser was held — highlighted Clinton blaming Democratic Party activists for her electoral difficulties.

“Moveon.org endorsed [Sen. Barack Obama] — which is like a gusher of money that never seems to slow down,” Clinton said to a meeting of donors. “We have been less successful in caucuses because it brings out the activist base of the Democratic Party. MoveOn didn’t even want us to go into Afghanistan. I mean, that’s what we’re dealing with. And you know they turn out in great numbers. And they are very driven by their view of our positions, and it’s primarily national security and foreign policy that drives them. I don’t agree with them. They know I don’t agree with them. So they flood into these caucuses and dominate them and really intimidate people who actually show up to support me.”

Last week, the HuffPost reported on Clinton saying “screw ’em,” in reference to working-class whites in the South. The story was largely dismissed, and as I argued, it probably wasn’t too big a deal anyway.

But getting caught trashing the “activist base of the Democratic Party” is far more problematic, especially while running for the Democratic Party’s presidential nomination. Indeed, Clinton’s comments at the fundraiser reflect a certain disdain for liberal activists, and hints at a rift between the base and the Clinton campaign that will be difficult to repair.

If Clinton were simply annoyed with MoveOn.org, it might be easier to understand. After all, when a major group endorses a candidate’s rival, it’s not surprising that the candidate would harbor some hard feelings towards the group. (That is not, however, an excuse for mischaracterizing MoveOn’s positions — the group did not oppose the war in Afghanistan — and repeating a bogus attack levied by Karl Rove a year prior.)

But Clinton’s comments went considerably further, dismissing the “activist base” of the party, rejecting their positions on foreign policy, and accusing them of intimidation tactics. What’s more, she adopted a rather elitist attitude: “[T]hat’s what we’re dealing with.” Who is “we”? The party elites who find the “activist base” an annoyance? And why, exactly, is high turnout among Democratic activists in primaries and caucuses a bad thing?

And when Clinton said, “I don’t agree with them” in relation to the foreign policy and national security positions embraced by the party’s base, what was she referring to? Presumably, this has to go well beyond Afghanistan, since most Dems supported the launch of the war in 2001.

Worse, Clinton, at least publicly, has had very complimentary things to say about MoveOn.org, which her comments at the fundraiser contradict. In April, at a MoveOn-sponsored town hall event, Clinton praised party activists who refuse to back down: “I think you have helped to change the face of American politics for the better, both online, and in the corridors of power. So although some of your members may be a little surprised to hear me say this, I am grateful for your work.”

Clinton Communications Director Howard Wolfson confirmed the authenticity of the recording, and said when Clinton referred to Obama supporters who “intimidate people,” she was referring to “instances of intimidation in the Nevada and the Texas caucuses.” Regrettably, Wolfson’s argument turned out to be false — as the Huffington Post’s Celeste Fremon noted, “In fact, the Nevada caucuses occurred prior to MoveOn’s endorsement of Obama, and when Clinton made her remarks, the Texas caucuses had yet to take place.”

Realistically, it seems unlikely to me that this story will generate anywhere near the interest that “bitter-gate” did. Given the political landscape, awkwardly worded concerns about “bitter” people in small towns is explosive, and trashing liberal activists isn’t.

Regardless, whether her remarks prompt weeks of ads and op-eds or not, the Democratic base will hear about this — they largely already have — and it will create lingering resentment. I’m not even sure what Clinton or her aides could say to help alleviate the situation.

And, just as an aside, I’d like to extend some advice to every presidential candidate currently running or who will ever run in the future: It’s the 21st century, and phones, cameras, and microphones are everywhere. You may not like it, but if you’re a high-profile political leader, the words you use around others while on the campaign trail will be recorded. Something to keep in mind.

I sent Hillary Clinton an email in 202 letting her know that with her vote for the War on Iraq (And that is what it was) she lost my support forever.

If she is the nominee and I select her on the 2008 ballot it won’t be a vote for her, it will be a vote against McCain. However I do loathe them both-and often for the same reasons.

  • I think the source of Clinton’s problems is that 35 years’ of experience have overloaded her neural networks.

    She’s remembering things that didn’t happen, confusing her friends with her enemies, forgetting to pay campaign bills, lashing out at others, forgetting which party’s nomination she’s running for, and is convinced she can win and the other guy can’t — even though she’s behind and more and more people don’t trust or like her.

    Could it be that too much experience is detrimental to your mental health?

  • Who is “we”? The party elites who find the “activist base” an annoyance? And why, exactly, is high turnout among Democratic activists in primaries and caucuses a bad thing? The party elites who find the “activist base” an annoyance? And why, exactly, is high turnout among Democratic activists in primaries and caucuses a bad thing?

    “We” is just Hillary and her supporters. She’s never been interested in the party, just herself. Turnout is bad in her view because the new people don’t vote for her, which is in turn because she didn’t vote for them (on Iraq, etc.). It’s not elitist. She’s just selfish and so self-centered that she may actually believe everyone is as cynical as she is (meaning, folks would never just show up and caucus according to their conscience, it must be part of an attack plan of some organized group to get her).

  • And now you all see why I would vote for A Little Yellow dog before I would vote for Hillary, since I don’t vote for non-Democrats.

    Her sense of self-entitlement just drips here – imagine those damn Democrats wbo won’t see her magnificence. So, “screw ’em!”

    The Clintons have always been about what they want and the devil take the hindmost.

    The two of them are complete scum.

  • “… they flood into these caucuses and dominate them….”

    As Bill Clinton is wont to say: “If you can’t stand the heat, get out of the kitchen.”

  • Isn’t it legitimate for her to complain about MoveOn when they have endorsed Obama, who is after all her opponent in this election, and have been working actively against her?

    Clinton’s complaints about flooding caucuses and intimidating Clinton voters is believable to me because I see it reflected in the blogosphere, where the Obama supporters have used every crude tactic to drive away Clinton supporters. This string of ugly attempts by HuffPo to embarrass Clinton is a case in point. I have no trouble imagining that this “enthusiasm” has been similarly applied in voting contexts. It is the best explanation for why the caucus results are always so different from the elections (where everyone gets a chance to vote under normal voting conditions).

    Given that Obama has been running to the right of Clinton on so many issues, why do the so-called activists support him over her? Are they truly single-issue war voters or are they peeved about her greater power in the establishment, or is it something else? Whatever it is, it doesn’t make sense in the context of Democratic values. Once activists give up on a principled issue-driven stand, how can Clinton woo them — she can’t. So, I think it is fair for her to write them off and consider them opponents. Is there some rule that you get to bash Clinton without her fighting back just because you are supposedly a Democrat?

    30 Rock has solved my general election problem. Since choosing Obama is a sin, I will just write in name of The Lord (or Al Gore — still waffling).

  • “…it seems unlikely to me that this story will generate anywhere near the interest that “bitter-gate” did…”

    It will hold little interest among the punditocracy. But it is of great interest to activists, who don’t depend on the mass media for their information. This signal is the clearest yet regarding the menacing intent (and bankrupt methods) of Senator Inevitable.

    As comforting as it might be to some to demonize HRC, I’m increasingly inclined to believe that the Clinton campaign-in-overtime is designed neither to secure her the nomination, nor to defeat Obama’s individual candidacy as such, but to ensure that the Democratic party provides no hazards of genuine democracy to the institutional establishment. The sort of activist, bottom-up politics of the Obama campaign threatens the whole world-view beltway political class.

    If that means a McCain presidency, it’s a price some Democrats are willing to pay.

  • “I’m not even sure what Clinton or her aides could say to help alleviate the situation.”

    Perhaps she could explain that she misspoke because she was under sniper fire at the time?

    I started out liking and respecting Hillary. In the autumn and early this year, I was posting here saying that I could be happy with any of the major Democratic candidates, but I can’t say that any more. I’ve had a lot of practice supporting the lesser of two evils, but I’m really getting tired of it. It’s time to send Obama a bit more money.

  • I think Hillary’s correct. She would have won the Democratic nomination by now if it weren’t for all those damned Democrats.

    Will she run as an Independent Democrat if she doesn’t get the nomination?

  • “Last week, the HuffPost reported on Clinton saying “screw ‘em,” in reference to working-class whites in the South. The story was largely dismissed, and as I argued, it probably wasn’t too big a deal anyway”….I disagree. It IS a big deal-white working class Southerners put her husband in the Arkansas governor’s mansion and helped him become President,and she First Lady. She is attempting the delete democracy out of the Democrats, and the democratic process Move on was created to get her husband’s tail out of the crack years ago-I’ve heard of biting the hand that feeds you-but this is cannabalism. YOU move on,Hillary, and don’t let the door hit you on your fat ass on the way out.P.S. Take Dollar Bill with you !

  • Isn’t it legitimate for her to complain about MoveOn when they have endorsed Obama, who is after all her opponent in this election, and have been working actively against her?

    I’ll type slowly so you may be able to understand, Mare. She said these things before MoveOn endorsed Obama. Had you actually read the whole post before shooting wildly from the hip, you’d know that. You’d also know that her “complaints” included lying about MoveOn’s position on Afghanistan by repeating a bogus right-wing talking point that has been corrected ad infinitum.

    It’s beyond ironic that Clinton now arrogantly dismisses an organization that was created as pushback against her husband’s impeachment. Shows exactly how far the Clintons have come from where they used to be–used to pretend to be?–and where progressives are. The “we” she refers to considers the grassroots, activist, committed base of the party to be enemies. Truly, the Clintons are the reactionary establishment now.

  • I really don’t understand her or the campaign’s thinking on these issues. You piss off large segments of the Democratic party, but will want their support should you win the nomination? You’ll need their activist base to donate money to your campaign. This isn’t a one time thing. She’s been doing it for months. People in caucus states don’t matter. Your state doesn’t have a large delegate block, then your state isn’t a doesn’t matter. States with large black populations don’t matter (unless they would vote for her). If you are white and vote for Obama then you are feeling guilty over your racist feelings. If you are a middle-aged white woman (I am) then I should identify with her and vote for her. WTF? I don’t identify with knee-capping and dirty politics. People want to feel engaged about this process and to diss them is stupid. What is wrong with her? I used to like and support her also, but over the past several months as she whined about the unfairness of everything, I gave up. She reminds me of my little sister when we were in grade school.

  • I sometimes wonder how many Democrats are now wishing they’d let Bill Clinton sink himself with his own perjury and selfish lack of impulse control. I defended this guy for years–we all did–but looking back, had Clinton been convicted in the Senate and Al Gore become president, we wouldn’t have these pathetic excuses for Democrats in our hair now.

    Then again, Hillary’s positives have never been anywhere near as high as they were the month her husband was impeached. So perhaps a Bill Clinton conviction would have carried her to dizzying heights of approval she’s never been able to achieve through her own actions.

    The whole thing is just so sad.

  • It appears to me that what Clinton is actually campaigning for is the continuation of dirty politics a la Karl Rove, not issues facing America at this critical time in history after the destruction that GW Bush has wrought. It is apparently the only kind of campaigning she knows and feels comfortable with. If her kind of campaigning fails (and Republican swiftboat tactics), it will be the end of an era in American politics and the end of politicians who believe they can enter the political realm using those dirty tactics.

    Something has changed America’s political will, and maybe most of the credit should go to the felonious Bush administration. When things go badly, usually complacent people begin to pay attention to politics, and some of them become activists who say NEVER AGAIN.

    Hillary is a fool for not recognizing the strong tie to Bush that her actions reveal, from dirty campaigning to strongly supporting Bush on every destructive issue he threw in America’s face. In many ways, Hillary is just as connected to GW Bush’s policies as John McCain, and she’s paying the price.

  • If I were advising the Obama campaign, I would suggest that they get him out talking in small town venues about why this kind of setting one group of people against another within the party is wrong on so many levels. He would help people whose jobs have been exported to understand that all the branches of the party have to work together to solve the problems that the DLC and the Publican corporate/media have engendered in their class warfare against the middle and working classes.

    He would help them to see that Move-On and party activists have their back much more reliably than the DLC types who vote to keep the majority of Americans in credit-card debt slavery by making it impossible to declare bankruptcy when some other branch of the corporate kleptocracy – say insurance companies – wipe them out. He would argue that the “common people” need to have the backs of the activists, even if they have significantly more education and/or communication skills. For one thing, this gives “common people” much more access to those skills than they’ll ever get being Clinton/McCain sheeple.

    And he would keep on building the bridges between activists and “common people” so that we all can become uncommon, highly successful activists more in charge of the decisions that change our lives.

  • All of Hillary’s recent flailing aside, I’m biased against Hillary because it I don’t want another Clinton Presidency. Bill was a good President for his time, but that time has passed.
    After eight years of George II we need actual change and Obama’s as close as we’re going to get. Personally, I’d like a candidate who, if there was an opening in the Supreme Court, would nominate someone so liberal that it would give Scalia a stroke.

  • So Hon. Sen. Clinton identified as a problem her campaign’s vulnerability concerning a lack of organization in caucus states on super Tuesday, then proceeded to ignore and deride these states as unimportant for the next couple of months. Ready on day one.

  • Since the tape is unsourced and we do not know when or where the remarks were made, what the context was or who was in the audience, how do you know the remarks were made before MoveOn’s endorsement of Obama, especially given that MoveOn came out for Obama so early on? Further, Clinton’s problems with MoveOn predate their formal announcement for Obama. The disagreement remains the assumption that MoveOn should be treated with kid gloves simply because they are fellow Democrats. MoveOn wishes to have greater influence than they actually wield within the wider Democratic party and they have butted heads before with Clinton over it, e.g., during Ned Lamont’s campaign (which Obama did not initially support either). If you are a MoveOn member, then this complaint about Clinton will have weight and you will think she is evil because she said bad things about MoveOn. I was sympathetic to MoveOn until it abandoned any pretense at supporting issues I care about by endorsing Obama. This is about insider politics and ambitions of competing factions within the party, played out in the current arena of Obama vs Clinton. She has the right to say whatever she wants about MoveOn, especially to a private group of her supporters at a fundraiser.

  • Maria — it clearly says in the excerpt above that Clinton’s remarks occurred after Super Tuesday and it begins with the words that MoveOn had endorsed Obama, as part of Clinton’s quoted statement. Where on earth do you get the idea that this statement was made before MoveOn endorsed Obama?

  • The disagreement remains the assumption that MoveOn should be treated with kid gloves simply because they are fellow Democrats.

    Try replacing the “MoveOn” with “white women over 60” and marvel at what a clueless hypocrite you are. If you can’t figure out that pissing off the entire activist base of the Democratic party–the people who do most of the work nowadays and have a far better record of engagement and recruitment than the old DLC dinosaurs–is no way to win elections, you’re even more oblivious than we thought. We don’t have to be members of MoveOn to recognize that Clinton is dissing the grassroots of the party in favor of the old top-down, heavy-on-control plutocracy of the DLC. And she has already lost that battle.

    The nomination of Obama is going forward with or without your or the Clinton’s campaign understanding of the sea change happening in party leadership and power. You guys can sit around crying about what might have been and boo-hooing the supposed victimization of a candidate whose arrogance and entitleist comments turned off most of America, or you can accept that the Clintons’ time is over and the Democratic party has moved into a different era–and try to adapt yourself to changing circumstances like functional adults do. Your choice.

  • Obama supporters are actually the minority of the democratic party so its only proper for the far left wing nuts from MoveOn.org and Huff Post to support Obama. He will get creamed in PA Tuesday and beaten in November by at least 10%.

    So much for dems taking the WH.

  • Move On endorsed Obama the week before Super Tuesday and these comments were some unspecified amount of time soon after Super Tuesday so she was undoubtedly bitter about that endorsement and probably felt at the the time that she would already have the nomination locked up if Obama hadn’t gotten a Move On bump from all the members showing up and voting. Whether she’s right or wrong about that I couldn’t say, I don’t know of any poll that shows whether Move On changed any minds from Hillary or Edwards to Obama.

    Really, I’m not sure if this covers any new ground, all it is is confirmation of the pre-existing widespread belief that Hillary felt entitled to the nomination and was/is bitter that she doesn’t have it. And she hates the progressive core of the party and has run a campaign seemingly designed to make sure that hatred is mutual and long-lasting. I don’t see how she could hope to be the Democratic nominee going forward after this (as if there was any doubt left), she has pissed off everyone who is paying attention.

  • Maria — it clearly says in the excerpt above that Clinton’s remarks occurred after Super Tuesday and it begins with the words that MoveOn had endorsed Obama.

    My mistake–I apologize for my error and retract my statement.

    (See how that’s done? Practicing honesty and accountability doesn’t burn like acid. Don’t be afraid to give it a try at some point.)

  • Mary – she has the right say anything she wants about Moveon because it was at a private fundraiser, thereby pissing off a large segment of the democratic base, but it’s fair game if Obama does it at a private fundraiser when trying to explain people’s anger and frustration at their current economic situation and supposedly pissing off every religious gun owner in the country? Sure it’s a free country and she can say what she wants, but no one is supposed to question it. Right?

  • 19. Mary said: If you are a MoveOn member, then this complaint about Clinton will have weight and you will think she is evil because she said bad things about MoveOn

    No Mary, it wasn’t the MoveOn insults that are the big deal.

    “We have been less successful in caucuses because it brings out the activist base of the Democratic Party…..So they flood into these caucuses and dominate them and really intimidate people who actually show up to support me.”

    That is the big problem with what she was saying. Her entire campaign is based on appealing to low-information voters who don’t care about politics other than voting when the time comes. She is insulting hundreds of thousands of Democratic activists for caring about politics enough to go out and vote in caucuses. These are the base of any Democratic ground game in November, and she clearly despises them for not supporting her. That is not a good thing because all of the activists will hear about this whether the mass media reports it or not.

  • JoyP

    Had Obama said when people in small towns were bitter because of their economic sitution and ineffectiveness of government then there would have been no story there but to bring in the equation of “cling to their guns and cling to their religion” he became an elitist and had no one to blame but himself. As for Hillary and MoveOn she is right about the far left wing of the party. Most are mainstream not lunies from the left or right.

    Time for a latte so I’ll sign of now.

  • Mary–

    I’m among those who believe that MoveOn should be treated with respect and tact BECAUSE they are fellow Democrats. You’re a fellow Democrat, and I try to treat you with respect and tact. Why shouldn’t you and Senator Clinton afford me the same courtesy? Truly there are Obama supporters who have called you names and insulted you and your candidate, and I am sorry that that has occurred, but that doesn’t excuse it when she makes a specious allegation about an important Democratic organization (i.e., we activists didn’t support the campaign in Afghanistan), or make it smart for both you and Senator Clinton to place us on your chosen list of enemies.

  • Yeah, democracy sure would work better if it weren’t for citizens who actually give a damn and do something about it. Those activists keep screwing up democracy, even though WE know how to run it well.

    I’m glad Senator Clinton is on tape saying this. I am glad it’s documented.

  • That is the big problem with what she was saying. Her entire campaign is based on appealing to low-information voters who don’t care about politics other than voting when the time comes. She is insulting hundreds of thousands of Democratic activists for caring about politics enough to go out and vote in caucuses. These are the base of any Democratic ground game in November, and she clearly despises them for not supporting her. That is not a good thing because all of the activists will hear about this whether the mass media reports it or not.

    Exactly. And while Mary will try to limit this to Clinton’s fear of and contempt for MoveOn (itself a 3M plus-member org), Clinton insulted every Democratic activist, MoveOn member or not. As you say, every single one of us is going to hear about it because we no longer rely on the mainstream media for our information.

    She has seriously damaged her already-in-tatters campaign with this statement.

  • Hillary’s comments show me that the 08 primary is Obama & the “people” vs the “Beltway” and the Beltway knows that.

    In Dec 07, Obama was dismissed as a college fad of sorts who would be Howard Dean of 08, ignite a bunch of starry eyed folks and then collapse when the reality of the election game would confront them. Obama won big in Iowa. Big deal shrugged the pundits. Hillary is the inevitable. NH showed that Obama under estimated the power of the machine against him. NV has since proved to be the high water mark of Hils Campaign. The “shocking” 50/50 split on Super Tuesday. 11 straight Obama victories knocked the Beltway on it’s ass. And the reaction since then was pretty much, what the hell is this “articulate overeducated uppity half n*gger” trying to prove? (Sorry for the use of racist language, but I used it to convey the anger I sense from a majority of the chattering classes as they talk shit about Obama who have as much to lose as the Wash insiders do.)

    When Hillary was talking about her and McCain passing the CIC test, many of us (including myself) assumed that it was being a REAL CIC. In this new light, the CIC test it seems is being vetted by the Beltway and the gang of rich donors as “one of them.” Otherwise, the anger towards the Dem Party from Hils top staff and donors don’t make sense, They have an “outsider” in the game and WINNING and they fucking hate it. If you look at many of Obama’s Superdelegate pickups is that many of those SDs know something is wrong in Washington and it needs to change. Whether or not good change comes from Obama has yet to be seen, but they see him as the best opportunity to change it for the better.

    The beltway knows that McCain isn’t the one who can defeat Obama because they know the US economy is in the shitter and that them (the high power donors and legislators from both parties–mostly Repubs but Dems as well) who put it there. Between $4 gas, increasing food prices and unemployment and McCain running ON the Bush record and has no cash relative to the other two, I think that this week’s polls are going to be the high water mark for him. The Republican brand will be too linked with failure on all levels that no amount of BBQ sauce will wash away.

    My $ take on this.

  • Reading MoveOn referred to as as “it” amuses me since it is a grassroots movement of millions. Democracy in action. I’m not a member but think the organization is doing good work. Even with the Betray-us ad.

    Seems to me that Clinton is dissing the activists/donors of her party. The ones who care the most about the Democratic agenda – at least the populist agenda that Obama represents. Not a group to piss off should she miraculously win the nomination. Millions will feel disenfranchised. Way to go, Hill…

  • @32,
    I made an oops sort of about the reaction media in NH. Post Iowa, the pundits were talking that Hils needed to pull NH out or she would be finished. I’m thinking that it was to set up the MSM narrative of “Comeback Kid 2: The Inevitable unsinkable Hillary Clinton.” Hence they would dismiss Iowa as a bunch of clueless rogue farmers and hicks.

  • At Yearly Kos last summer they had a candidates’ “forum” in which, after a while, Clinton took a half-swipe at the progressives, then when a few people in one part of the very large room booed half-heartedly, she spun around, pointed her finger and said she expected as much.

    Clinton was treated with respect and courtesy at Yearly Kos, but she showed up with a chip on her shoulder determined to do battle with us. I think her campaign was disappointed that they didn’t get a Sistah Souljah moment out of that gathering. (They probably would have, but since the Hyatt Regency isn’t a cheap hotel, only the most affluent Kossacks attended, and they were probably the most sympathetic to Hillary out of all the Daily Kos readers.)

  • schwag of tulsa, HRC actually has more support among democrats, much of Obama’s red state wins came from republican spoilers.. please don’t take my word for it, go look at the exit polls from CNN.

  • Hillary’s comments about MoveOn.org is not comparible to bitter-gate. His remarks very broadly said that small town Pennsylvanians clung to guns and god, and don’t vote for him because they are xenophobic bigots.

    HRC’s remarks spoke about how moveon.org activists strong-armed Hillary supporters at caucuses, which has been reported by actual HRC supporters and was the reason for several lawsuits across the country.

    I think this will not get much media attention outside of Keith Olberman, who has gone way off the deep end and might need to consider leaving journalism after Obama loses (now or November, either way it’s bound to happen).

  • Several people object to MoveOn having endorsed Obama, saying to was wrong for them to take sides. I don’t agree. Organizations like unions, newspapers, and even individuals like DNC state chairmen, mayors, and legislators at all levels endorse candidates. Why should MoveOn be held to a different standard?

    Hillary Clinton did not plan for winning caucuses, did not organize for them, and the result of that was that she did not do well. That was her mistake and has nothing to do with “activists.”

    To me, the most important part of what she said behind closed doors seems to be getting overlooked. She says that that she does not agree with the activist wing of the Democrats on foreign policy and national security. It is VITAL that she explain that. I want a Democrat in the WH, not one that is pretending or turns out to be Lieberman-like.

  • Once again, just like the “bitter” controversy, the Huffington
    post has made a recording of off-the-record comments.
    dishonestly.

    Where is the outrage at a news organization, or whatever it is,
    using unethical means to record candidates during private meetings?
    The Obama recording was made when all of the attendees
    understood that all comments were off the record, and that no
    press were allowed, and that absolutely no recordings were allowed.
    The “blogger” who recorded Obama had to deceive and lie to do so.

    What is next – voyeur cams in the bathroom? Will we accept that too?

    Does anyone remember the case of a cell phone conversation
    recorded by a citizen, mailed to a member of congress, who
    made it public? Remember the fallout – news orgs would not touch
    the contents, and the congressman was fined heavily, and I thought
    that all serious journalists everywhere saw that “spying” on a cell
    phone conversation as wrong and unethical.

    Why doesn’t any of that apply now?

    This is a slippery slope, and it leads to the day when a voyeur cam
    of one of these candidates in the bathroom is going to be on youtube!
    (Remember chancellor Merkel in Germany getting out of the shower!)

    My golly, this isn’t mud, this is dung being thrown and wallowed in . And when
    national news like ABC talks about the contents of these recordings without
    applying the same restraint they applied to that case of the cellular phone recording,
    then we are already slipping down that slope.

    we are well down that slope.
    and I think some outrage needs to apply!

  • Realistically, it seems unlikely to me that this story will generate anywhere near the interest that “bitter-gate” did. Given the political landscape, awkwardly worded concerns about “bitter” people in small towns is explosive, and trashing liberal activists isn’t.

    In terms of media buzz, I agree that “bitter-gate” is likely to generate more publicity. That doesn’t mean it will have more of an impact in the race. At worst Obama repeated some of Thomas Frank’s flawed ideas on voting based on values versus economics. Even if Obama’s analysis was partially in error, there was no validity to Clinton’s distortions of his comments to claim he was insulting small town Americans. There’s a lot of media buzz, but no evidence that it is affecting Obama’s support.

    In contrast, these comments clearly show Clinton insulting Democratic activists who do have a role in determining the outcome of the final primaries. This might cause some undecided Democrats to vote for Obama over Clinton in the final primaries. Even some superdelegates might question the wisdom of attacking supporters of the party in this matter.

    Besides its effect on the primaries, in the unlikely event that Clinton does win the nomination, it will be yet one more obstacle to her getting the support of Democrats in the general election who did not support her in the primaries.

    My bet is that if Clinton somehow wins the nomination, many Democrats will feel it is better to lose and have a chance to nominate a decent candidate in 2012, as opposed to face the prospect of the Democratic Party being under the influence of the Clintons for at least eight more years. This attack on the Democratic activist base will only help promote the view that a Democratic victory under Hillary Clinton is not really a good thing to see happen.

  • I was sympathetic to MoveOn until it abandoned any pretense at supporting issues I care about by endorsing Obama.

    Just what issues do you care about, Mary? Please cite something beyond electing a woman president in your lifetime, and tell me how support for Obama would be tantamount to abandoning any pretense of supporting that issue.

    Hillary Clinton (as confirmed by her own campaign) said: “So they flood into these caucuses and dominate them and really intimidate people who actually show up to support me.” Speaking from my experience at a Democratic caucus in Seattle, I can say that Hillary supporters were indeed intimidated. They were intimidated by the fact that they were outnumbered 2 to 1. They were intimidated by the fact that when asked to make the case for Senator Clinton, the best they could come up with was “We will be electing the first woman President ever!” They were intimidated by the comments in favor of Obama. There was not one word (admittedly in a precinct with few or no African American voters) about electing the first black President. There was excitement and commitment from those supporters. I personally made sure that Clinton supporters were given a fair chance to make their cases. They simply paled in comparison. When the time came to advocate for Hillary, they had nothing more than her womanhood and her establishment connections. This clearly was not what my neighbors were looking for this time around.

    At the time of the caucus I only slightly favored Obama to Hillary, as I had been a supporter of John Edwards. Since that time, Senator Clinton has done a number of things to alienate me in her attempt to seize the brass ring that she thought would be bestowed upon her. She has lost all credibility with me. Both Clinton and Obama are going to need every center and center-left supporter they can muster to GOVERN. But the Senator seems not to care about this. Winning is the thing. Governing is something she will worry about later. This worries me and causes me to hope more fervently each day that some courageous super delegates will put a bullet in her candidacy ASAP after PA.

  • But the Senator seems not to care about this.

    To be clear, I refer to Senator Clinton.

  • If politicians had to align themselves with their true selves, wouldn’t Hillary be a Republican, Newt a Democrat and McCain and independent?

  • This was a very wonderful thread to read. Lots of smart and good people with lots of smart and good insights. Thank you.

    Posts 13-18 are particularly good.
    If you are just showing up, and don’t have time for the whole thread… check those out.

  • So Sen Clinton flipped the bird to Dem activists. So what? It was just a little, *verbal* one, not like Obama’s scratching his cheek with his middle finger Besides, she’s from the *passivist* wing of the party; you can’t expect her to approve of activists.

    Hey… where’s Insane Fake Professor? I can’t do this thing half as convincingly as she does 🙁

  • 44. blogingRfun said: If politicians had to align themselves with their true selves, wouldn’t Hillary be a Republican, Newt a Democrat and McCain and independent?

    I see no similarity between Newt and Democrats or McCain and independents. Perhaps you would care to enlighten us on what the hell you’re talking about?

  • I don’t agree with MoveOn on this, either.

    For all their trashing of the Clintons, getting things done seems to get lost in the Kos-style arguments.

    Progressives need to be non-racist. Non-sexist. Able to take criticism of those kinds. And they also need to not buy into right-wing or mass media smears of Liberal positions.

    Obama’s camp hasn’t done very well on those. Of course, Clinton wasn’t my candidate anyhow… *sigh*

  • Once again, just like the “bitter” controversy, the Huffington post has made a recording of off-the-record comments. dishonestly. Ed Bardell@40

    How, sir, would this recording have been made “dishonestly?” Did Hillary open her comments with a disclaimer to the effect that “I’m going to say things that may prove that I’ve been lying through my teeth in public—so please don’t record my comments?”

    This so-called “private meeting” concerns her willful attempt to gain the presidency by decietful means—and the People have every right to know that she says one thing to the electorate-at-large, and an entirely different thing to her “private supporters.” What she has done here is no different than if I were to interview a graduate assistant through my department, and then find out that he/she had lied profusely on the application.

    You lie to your potential employer and get caught, you don’t get the job. It’s called “falsification.” It’s grounds for not getting the job; it’s grounds for losing the job if the subterfuge is found out after the fact. But hey—I imagine the anti-Clinton Dems in the halls of Congress, combined with their GOP counterparts, would love a second chance at a Clinton impeachment—and getting kicked out of the WH for lying through your teeth to win the election —repeatedly—is a better reason for impeachment than lying about some chubby bimbo in a blue dress….

  • TuiMel — here are the issues I care about, as they occur to me but not necessarily in order of importance or feasibility:

    1. Civil rights for GLBT because none of us are free until all of us are free.
    2. Global warming and everything it takes to reduce it, including foreign treaties and a domestic energy policy.
    3. Net neutrality — a big one for me.
    4. Education — Obama favors merit pay for teachers, showing he knows NOTHING about concerns of teachers, who are nearly unanimously against it and against NCLB. There is a reason why teachers support Clinton.
    5. Ending the war in Iraq ASAP — and no, I don’t believe Clinton started it.
    6. Social security benefits — against privatization but for raising the cap as necessary. I do not agree with Obama that SS is in trouble.
    7. Universal single-payer health care — not Obama’s plan which lets people opt out. This means grappling with all health issues, not just who pays.
    8. Restoring a balanced, pay-as-you-go budget, like the one’s Bill Clinton achieved. Ultimately, I want a stronger dollar against the Euro etc..
    9. Providing immediate relief for those in financial distress, including those with non-speculation related mortgage problems, those caught in the inflationary gas price squeeze, and the increasing number of unemployed.
    10. A windfall profits tax on oil companies, removal of gas speculation by traders, and higher CAFE standards, plus a reasonable long-term energy policy that reduces dependence on both foreign and domestic oil and encourages alternative energy sources, nuclear is OK with me short-term.
    11. Support for unions, strengthening of anti-trust, increase in regulation of key monopolies, and inclusion of liveable wage and working conditions in both domestic and foreign trade treaties.
    12. A return to the president setting policy for the military, not vice versa.
    13. I want the president to abide by and uphold the constitution as sworn.
    14. Prosecution of Bush people for war crimes, corruption, and other illegal acts, though I believe it is more likely whoever is elected will pardon and ignore previous administration’s crimes. As I said, I am not forgiving.
    15. Increased funding for science and social science research, including basic research.
    16. Inclusion of the results of such research in the decision making process by appointing and listening to science advisors, elimination of govt censorship of science and govt reports. A coherent science policy — no debate has touched on this.
    17. Clear and consistent separation of church and state. I don’t care if Clinton prays in private or attends prayer breakfasts, as long as she doesn’t claim that God is speaking to her personally and thinks she’s doing His work.
    18. Removal of partisanship from career and staff appointments to all executive offices, committees and boards. Good judicial appts.
    19. A return to safety regulation and inspections, regardless of the impact on business.
    20. Accountability to the press and public via regular press conferences, release of public documents, etc.

    I may have forgotten something, but that should do for starters. Note that charisma is missing from this list, as is likeability, honesty, pretty much all of the so-called character issues. Note that I don’t care how many women or other minorities she appoints to her cabinet, nor do I care about earmarks, campaign financing, or how much money she makes in office. I care about how well the country is run and whether our current problems are addressed quickly and effectively. Maybe now you will see why I don’t consider Obama very impressive or the criticisms of Clinton very damaging.

  • Forgot one — restore funding to the National Parks and stop turning them into playgrounds for snow-mobilers. Support other wildlife and wildlands conservation, even when inconvenient for development. I am a hiker.

  • Note that charisma is missing from this list, as is likeability, honesty, pretty much all of the so-called character issues. — Mary, @50

    Yes, you’d have to omit “honesty” (not to mention “charisma”), if you wanted to make a list which would fit Hillary; nobody sane could accuse her of either of those attributes.

    It’s too late to parse every item that *has* found itself on your list of desirables but one is so glaring it should not be left unmentioned…You say that one of the things you want is:
    7. Universal single-payer health care — not Obama’s plan which lets people opt out.

    Daaah-link… You’re such a *wet* chick; your brain’s all a-mush… 🙂

    *Neither* Clinton *nor* Obama are for single-payer health care. Even my erst-while first choice (Edwards The Angry) would have allowed the — *multiple* — leeches in the insurance industry to keep on sucking on our blood because none of them believe that anything less is likely to pass through the Congressional carping. It was *Kucinich* who was the only one whose health care plan called for single-payer. And *neither* offers a plan which will be truly universal (because neither offers a single-payer, automatic, coverage)…

    *Mandates* is the only difference between Clinton’s and Obama’s plans. And, despite what Krugman says on the subject, there’s some debate on the issue of mandates; they don’t seem to have worked all that well in Massachusetts, leaving more and more people uninsured every year. Obama’s plan is a long way from perfect but itt appears that forcing people to purchase insurance which they can’t afford — the Clinton solution — isn’t the answer either.

    On many of your other issues, the two don’t differ much, either, at least as far as we know. Mostly because they haven’t said anything on the subject.

    You want to assume that Clinton will do *everything* you want, while Obama will do nothing at all. Sucking up garbage from a diseased imagination is your privilege. But don’t try to tell us that those are the issues which made you love Clinton and hate Obama because, since there’s no evidence for your faith, we just have to assume it’s pure BS.

  • It was the activist base of the party that voted for Nader and gave us 8 years of Bush. It was the activists who never noticed the Clintons fix the economy and improve every stat in the book. It was the activist base who followed the media’s lead and trashed the Clintons no matter what they did. They complained about nafta but never showed up at the national protests, complained about going to the mat on healthcare and making the deal on don’t ask don’t tell, although healthcare for all Americans is just a tad more important than having a general that can do the triple snap. It was the activists who didn’t just fall like a ton of bricks for the latest media smear campaign, but actually copied the media’s childish insults. It’s the activists who haven’t noticed that Obama’s new politics are mostly dated liberal cliches. Dictator parties and campaign finance reform indeed. Why didn’t he just add Naders proportional representation and have done with it? It’s the activists who’ve been hypnotized by the deep voice, sing song delivery, and shallow rhetoric; and have never recognized the most skilled, accomplished, and knowledgeable democrats of our time.

  • Mary,

    That is quite a platform you have outlined – part policy wish list and part idealistic pie-in-the skying. Now I can definitely see why you think Move On abandoned any pretense of supporting the issues you care about by endorsing Barack Obama. To keep faith with you, Mary, they should have endorsed Dennis Kucinich! I am afraid your list simply confirms that your support of HRC is based on something other than an examination of the positions and records of the two candidates who remain in the race for the Democratic nomination. And, I find it both interesting (you seem to concede that Hillary is not honest) and sad (you say accountability is an important “issue” for) that honesty is not on your list of important issues / aspirations for our next president.

    I could go through your list and offer comments on why your contention that to support Obama is to abandon any pretense of caring about the issue cited is idiotic. Or I could comment on how sadly ironic are some of the items you listed. But, I do not believe anyone would profit from that exercise. I remain convinced that electing a woman is of paramount importance to you. I can see no other rationale for the vehemence of your contempt for Obama.

    I shan’t attempt to engage you again. Your reasoning does not strike me as sound. I do not know if it never was sound or if disappointment and the realization that Hillary is trailing and failing has vanquished your ability to be coherent. Either way, there is no benefit in it for you or for me or any other readers here.

  • I think that Hillary is about as much a Democrat as is Joe Lieberquisling. They’re both neocons. Anybody who questions her presumption of entitlement to the white House is now part of the “activist base”? Interesting. Maybe so, but if she had been responsive to will of Democratic voters and were working in harmony with the principles of of the Democratic party, instead of doing her typical triangulating-stealth-Republican routine, she wouldn’t be whining the blues right now.

  • I think the Democrats all owe an apology to Republicans.

    The Move-On folks owe Republicans an apology because they have confirmed ,all the things that Republicans have noticed about the Clintons since 1992 are true.

    The Clinton folks owe Republicans an apology because they have confirmed all the things that Republicans have noticed about the Move-On folks since 1998 are true.

  • Selected items from Mary’s list, with commentary on the issues that are of great importance to me as well:


    1. Civil rights for GLBT because none of us are free until all of us are free.

    So… the Clintons’ loud and proud support of DOMA–the White Citizens’ Council to Rick Santorum’s Klan–doesn’t bug you at all? Nor Bad Boy Bill’s advice to John Kerry in 2004 that he should come out in favor of all those state-level referenda against gay marriage?

    The Clintons always crap on the gays. It’s almost unimaginable that either of them, particularly that political coward Hillary, would do something like Obama’s condemnation of black homophobia in an African-American church.

    4. Education — Obama favors merit pay for teachers, showing he knows NOTHING about concerns of teachers, who are nearly unanimously against it and against NCLB. There is a reason why teachers support Clinton.

    Again, the Clintons’ cowardly embrace of the status quo contrasts with Obama’s political bravery and interest in trying things that work.

    American teachers’ unions protect their weakest members at the expense of both the best teachers and the children they’re supposed to serve. Of course the bureaucrats, careerists, professional victims and accountability-phobic would endorse the candidate that shows those same personality traits.

    Education policy is one of the biggest reasons I support Obama–and I’m actually afraid he’ll wimp out in the end and follow Clinton’s course. If McCain had the wit to embrace a strong education reform agenda, it would greatly improve his chances; my fantasy is that Obama and McCain start competing in their drive to professionalize–with much higher pay, attention to professional development, greater flexibility and vastly more accountability–public school teaching.

    5. Ending the war in Iraq ASAP — and no, I don’t believe Clinton started it.

    Your persecution fantasies to the contrary, nor does anyone else… though it would have been nice if she could have taken a couple hours to read the briefings before voting to give Bush the gun.

    But given that the Clintons always think war is good politics–have they ever not supported a “military intervention”?–and that Hillary in particular is terrified that some pundit will call her a wimp, I don’t trust her judgment on Iraq any more than I do McCain’s.

    11. Support for unions, strengthening of anti-trust, increase in regulation of key monopolies, and inclusion of liveable wage and working conditions in both domestic and foreign trade treaties.

    Unions didn’t do well during the Clinton years, as you might have noticed. Think it’s a coincidence so many of them have endorsed Obama? Or that they don’t particularly want to see disciples of the Robert Rubin school of Rockefeller Republicanism back in charge of the nation’s economic policy? Obama may or may not be better in this regard–Edwards absolutely would have been–but I’m mortally certain he won’t be worse.

    13. I want the president to abide by and uphold the constitution as sworn.
    14. Prosecution of Bush people for war crimes, corruption, and other illegal acts, though I believe it is more likely whoever is elected will pardon and ignore previous administration’s crimes. As I said, I am not forgiving.

    Given the Iraq vote and (one of) Hillary’s justifications–deference to executive power that she learned at “the other end of Pennsylvania Avenue,” plus the secrecy, vindictiveness and combativeness that have characterized her entire career, what exactly makes you think she’ll be more inclined to uphold the Constitution than the Constitutional Law professor who has made open government a hallmark of his work in the Senate?

    18. Removal of partisanship from career and staff appointments to all executive offices, committees and boards. Good judicial appts.

    Again, yours is a Senator and candidate for whom political loyalty is the absolute if not sole virtue. Remind you of anyone else?

    20. Accountability to the press and public via regular press conferences, release of public documents, etc.
    Again, I don’t think it’s a particularly close call between Clinton and Obama as to who is likely to be more accountable or forthcoming with “release of public documents.”

    Mary, your list actually shows you to be an intelligent and fairly progressive Democrat… but your choice of candidate contradicts the list.

  • anonymensch, LA, LA, LA, LA, I can’t heeeeeeeeeeeear you!

  • Kucinich would have been my candidate, but I can’t vote for anyone with a trophy wife, as I’ve said here before.

    Anonymensch, judging by the campaign statements of the respective candidates, not the whispering campaigns against them (I’m surprised you didn’t give me the murder of Vince Foster to indicate that Hillary is against law and order), I find more congruence with Clinton than Obama. I also hold it against Obama that he has done so little to advance his own agenda, even when he has had opportunities to do so.

    This yearning for a “new kind of politician” is in the long tradition of reform candidates. When you read the history of such politicians, you find that they sweep out corrupt regimes but are spectacularly unable to accomplish anything else themselves. Why? Because the machines may be corrupt but they get work done. When I say I don’t care about honesty, I mean that I do not care much about the back-scratching and horse-trading, the networking, favor-trading and alliances that go on routinely in govt. That is realistically how things get done and I very much want to see things get done — the right things. When I ask for accountability, I am not asking for honesty. I am asking for information about what is being done. I don’t care how much money the candidates made. I care about what the wording is of legislation and how it will effect which groups of people. That is what I mean by accountability — doing the people’s work. I am afraid Obama will be unable to get much done at all, both because he is new and because he is too dainty to stick his hands into the muck of government and knead the bread.

    I don’t consider Bill Clinton a perfect president, but if you look at the statistics for the economy things were a heck of a lot better than they were under Bush, even factoring out the war and the impact of 9/11 on the economy. I would be happy to have that kind of imperfection again, complete with Travelgate and Monica Lewinsky, if that’s the price we have to pay for it. Hillary knows how to accomplish that — or she has a first-rate advisor close at hand. Obama has Michelle, and no offense to her, that isn’t the same.

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