Bush to connect Iraq, Vietnam

With the president’s upcoming report to Congress on “progress” in Iraq just a few weeks away, the White House is, once again, preparing a new public-relations offensive to bolster support for Bush’s war policy. It starts today with a speech to the Veterans of Foreign Wars’ annual convention, followed by another address next week to the American Legion, which will reportedly offer a “broader context” to discouraging news out of Iraq.

Apparently, this context includes an odd comparison between the wars in Iraq and Vietnam.

As he awaits a crucial progress report on Iraq, President Bush will try to put a twist on comparisons of the war to Vietnam by invoking the historical lessons of that conflict to argue against pulling out.

On Wednesday in Kansas City, Missouri, Bush will tell members of the Veterans of Foreign Wars that “then, as now, people argued that the real problem was America’s presence and that if we would just withdraw, the killing would end,” according to speech excerpts released Tuesday by the White House.

But this is an obvious misread of history. Supporters of the war in Vietnam said a withdrawal would lead to Communists dominating Southeast Asia., just as supporters of the war in Iraq argue that a withdrawal now would lead to some kind of al Qaeda caliphate.

That, of course, is probably one of the least persuasive arguments the White House could offer. Predictions predicated on an Asian “domino theory” turned out to be wrong. As Josh Marshall explained, “Going 40 years on, it is not too much to say that virtually none of the predicted negative repercussions of our departure from Vietnam ever came to pass. Asia didn’t go Communist. Our Asian allies didn’t abandon us. Rather, the Vietnamese began to fall out with her Communist allies…. If anything, the clearest lesson of Vietnam would seem to be that there can be a vast hue and cry about the catastrophic effects of disengagement from a failed policy and it can turn out that none of them are true.”

But as it turns out, that’s not even the dumbest part of the president’s new argument.

This is.

The president will also make the argument that withdrawing from Vietnam emboldened today’s terrorists by compromising U.S. credibility, citing a quote from al Qaeda leader Osama bin Laden that the American people would rise against the Iraq war the same way they rose against the war in Vietnam, according to the excerpts.

“Here at home, some can argue our withdrawal from Vietnam carried no price to American credibility, but the terrorists see things differently,” Bush will say.

Now, this is just silly. Several U.S. administrations pursued a failed strategy in Vietnam, we withdrew U.S. troops, and Osama bin Laden, several decades later, said, “A ha! Now we can attack with impunity”? I don’t think so. It’s an argument that reeks of desperation. This nonsense doesn’t bolster the White House line; it undermines the president’s credibility (even more so).

For good measure, the president will also reportedly argue that proponents of withdrawal from Vietnam are indirectly responsible for tragic massacres in Southeast Asia: “Whatever your position in that debate, one unmistakable legacy of Vietnam is that the price of America’s withdrawal was paid by millions of innocent citizens, whose agonies would add to our vocabulary new terms like ‘boat people,’ ‘re-education camps’ and ‘killing fields.’ ”

Marshall tackles this one, too.

The story of the ‘boat people’ is unquestionably tragic. And there’s little doubt that there are many Iraqis who will pay either with their lives or nationality for aiding us in various ways during our occupation of the country. But to govern our policy on this basis is simply to buy into a classic sunk cost fallacy. A far better — and really quite necessary — policy would be to give asylum to a lot of these people rather than continuing to get more of them into the same position in advance of our inevitable departure.

More concretely though, didn’t the killing fields happen in Cambodia under the Khmer Rouge rather than Vietnam? So doesn’t that complicate the analogy a bit? And didn’t that genocide actually come to an end when the Communist Vietnamese invaded in 1979 and overthrow the Khmer Rouge regime? The Vietnamese Communists may have been no great shakes. But can we get through one of these boneheaded historical analogies while keeping at least some of the facts intact?

Why let facts get in the way of a perfectly ridiculous meme?

What the hell does Bu4h know about Vietnam? He was too much of a coward to go. Maybe if he did, and had a buddy’s face blown off in front of him, he may not be so gung ho.

I guess he was too busy boozing and snorting.

  • to paraphrase, those who fail to learn from the lessons of history are doomed to repeat them.

  • As he awaits a crucial progress report on Iraq, President Bush…

    CNN reports this as if the WH isn’t writing the report.

  • Some of the same NeoCon Imperialists that monger the U.S. Military Occupation of Iraq today mongered the Vietnam War –do you think that Dear Leader is going to talk about that? And I’m guessing that G-Dub won’t bring up that both Vietnam and Iraq were illegal, undeclared “wars.”

  • On August 22nd, 2007 at 9:13 am, terraformer said:
    As he awaits a crucial progress report on Iraq, President Bush…

    CNN reports this as if the WH isn’t writing the report.

    Nonetheless, Bush IS awaiting the report. It’s not as if he’s going to have anything to do with the writing (or reading). The summary he may even glance at after someone in the WH writes it up for him.

  • My next door neighbor has “Hanoi Jane” and “Support President Bush and Our troops” bumper stickers on his car. He will regard Mr. Bush’s speech in Kansas City today as the obvious truth, and a validation of his bumper stickers.

  • This is aimed at the High Broderists. Our elite, but very serious dainties, will reduce this to ‘We don’t want another Vietnam, so what should we do differently?’ Pundits will be presented in a 70/30 conservitive tilt to tell us the only way to avoid another Vietnam, is to not repeat the tragic tactical mistake of ever leaving.

    Ridiculous, to be sure. But when has that ever stopped them before?

  • These asshats really have done a good job managing to turn OBL (and al qaeda)into much more than he really is. There is nothing OBL could have done to raise his profile and perceived power that could match what these incompetent stooges in the Sadministration have done through their sheer idiocy.

    I know lots of folks have said impeachment should not be attempted. But by not doing so Congress is not only enabling these further affronts to our safety, Constitution and what is left of America’s reputation, but it is also giving credibility, through its silence and failure to take any real act to stop this type of conduct, to the positions being taken by these criminals.

  • The Yale history major is apparently also urging Americans to stay in Iraq for the long haul, just like in post-war Japan and Korea. How these non-violent occupations are similar to Iraq, he cannot say. At least they’re not claiming that the post-WW2 occupations were just as violent then as Iraq is today; now, they seem to be claiming the opposite.

    If Bush wants to make a Vietnam analogy, he might argue that it was important for the US to intervene, even if we didn’t win, because it discouraged the Commies, yada yada, and therefore we had to act against Saddam, even if we botched the reconstruction. (“We,” meaning Bush himself.)

  • Regardless of the truth of the idea, it is a persistent meme in right-wing circles that Democrats/the peace movement/et al. are responsible for the rise of the Khmer Rouge and the subsequent massacres. I didn’t know that anyone actually believed this, but then I ran into several people that told me this exact same narrative and I can’t believe that it’s a coincidence. So, I assume like the Dredd Scott/abortion message, this is another way to communicate with the ‘base’ in terms they fully understand.

  • I am so damn tired of the lie that everything in Vietnam would have been just fine if we had only tried to win instead of just futzing around.

    Robert McNamara and Henry Kissinger. Lyndon Johnson and Richard Nixon. It is well documented that they all knew that Vietnam was unwinnable, but they continued to send U.S. soldiers there to die. The politicians were unwilling to admit their mistakes and thereby be viewed as “weak.”

    Does anyone in the Bush administration realize that there is no “victory” to be had in Iraq? I think that most of them do. Maybe even Bush realizes it, stupid and full of himself as he is.

    How many more Americans will they send there to die for their mistakes?

  • Republicans… making bogus assertions…?

    No way.

    When you throw out the facts, you can prove anything, ask any die-hard Republican. Fortunately the American people no longer believe what Bush says, and Democrats need to play that card at every opportunity, to drive home the fact that the neocons had their shot at being respected players, and they blew it completely.

    And everyone but them knows it.

    We should be all done debating Bushies as if they have any legitimacy whatsoever. Any engagement at all that doesn’t underline how spectacularly wrong they have always been is a missed opportunity to reinforce an existing concept which drives these bastards into the dustbin of history where they belong. Talking to them as if they have ever been right about anything is a huge mistake.

    Any response to these people must begin with a smackdown of their overall credibility, similar to the following:

    “These are the same people who told us all that we would be greeted as liberators and that they knew where the WMDs were. They have ZERO credibility. Second, this latest round of BS is just as incredibly dangerous as their assertions about Saddam Hussein being an ally of al Qaeda…”

    Of course we all know this, but the fact needs to be repeated until it becomes part of the landscape. As it stands now, we’re still debating their latest BS as if it came from people who might have a shred of credibility.

  • What I’d really love to see is someone ask these dumkopfs at 1600 Sesame St. “If Viet Nam was SO fucking important, why didn’t YOU go, Chimpy? Dickie? Anyone??? Bueller?”

    But I’m sure that won’t happen. I really doubt that anyone from the press corpse wants to wind up in Gitmo.

  • Wow; Rove is gone for less than a week and already the White House has decided that a winning political strategy is to connect Iraq and Vietnam. I guess he really was “Bush’s brain”. But by all means, Mr. Bush, bring on the analogy. I’m thinking you’ll be surprised at the reception you’ll get!

    Josh Marshall wrote: “More concretely though, didn’t the killing fields happen in Cambodia under the Khmer Rouge rather than Vietnam? So doesn’t that complicate the analogy a bit?”

    Even more, the Khmer Rouge’s rise to power and subsequent genocide were probably aided by the extended U.S. conflict, not aided by the withdrawal. Citing Wikipedia (not the perfect source, but it’ll do):

    Historians have cited the U.S. intervention and bombing campaign (spanning 1965-1973) as a significant factor leading to increased support of the Khmer Rouge among the Cambodian peasantry. Historian Ben Kiernan and Taylor Owen have used a combination of sophisticated satellite mapping, recently unclassified data about the extent of bombing activities, and peasant testimony, to argue that there was a strong correlation between villages targeted by U.S. bombing and recruitment of peasants by the Khmer Rouge. Kiernan and Owen argue that “Civilian casualties in Cambodia drove an enraged populace into the arms of an insurgency that had enjoyed relatively little support until the bombing began,[3]. In his study of Pol Pot’s rise to power, Kiernan argues that “Pol Pot’s revolution would not have won power without U.S. economic and military destabilisation of Cambodia” and that the U.S. carpet bombing “was probably the most significant factor in Pol Pot’s rise.”

    In other words, the U.S. was a destabilizing force in the region that directly led to the rise of the Khmer Rouge.

  • just bill – (Re #2)
    Bush isn’t so good at… well, anything, but sayings are a particular bad point. Witness “Fool me once…”
    What he apparently heard was “those who fail the lessons of history are doomed to repeat the course..”
    And since he never had to do any schoolwork on his own….

  • “In other words, the U.S. was a destabilizing force in the region that directly led to the rise of the Khmer Rouge.”

    Just like in Iraq, where al qaeda has arisen due to the US as a destabilizing force in the region, and due to the US’s actions that made OBL’s and al qaeda’s profiles bigger than what they actually are.

  • Just to further show how incredibly stupid Bush’s analogy is regarding the Khmer Rouge, look at the following pdf which shows confirmed sites of U.S. bombings in Cambodia:

    http://www.yale.edu/cgp/Walrus_CambodiaBombing_OCT06.pdf

    We dropped somewhere around 3 million tons of explosives on Cambodia up until 1973. Arguing that our leaving Vietnam was the destabilizing factor in the region is utterly ridiculous.

  • The reallink to Vietnam — the real war is here, at home, against the dirty hippies. The VFW loved it then, the VFW will love it now.

    Both wars soon lost their original rationales and became proxy American civil wars.

  • The amazingly unimpeached George Bush using the Vietnam War to support his own family blood feud in Iraq, without the entire country puking en masse, is evidence that we don’t live in a country. We live in a coma.

  • I listened to part of the Asshat-in-Chief’s speech today (they played it live here in Kansas City on the NPR affiliate) and … well, to sum it up: “9/11 … Stay the Course … Iraq = The Bestest Idea Ever … Vietnam was a Brilliant Idea … ”

    A lot of boilerplate stupidity we’ve come to expect, but the Vietnam connection was ludicrous. Some of the vets they spoke to afterward didn’t seem to buy it.

    Not sure if they have audio on their site (my employer blocks it), but you all can check at KCUR.org.

    On another note, he made zero fans among the folks here in town — he managed to screw up traffic here in town just as bad as everything else he touches. The huge mess was on I-670, which handles about 400,000 cars during rush hour (it goes under Bartle Hall, and they closed down the whole thing). Nearly everyone I work with were two hours late and they were pissed.

  • The truth of Vietnam is that, had Truman accepted the rise of Ho Chi Minh in 1946 and kept the French from returning, the world of 2007 would look exactly as it does today, except there would be several million people alive – both those who were killed in all those wars and their descendants – who aren’t there today.

    The American Empire is a failure, and all George Bush has done is prove the limits of the Imperial Legions. Iraq is our Teutoborg forest.

  • “In other words, the U.S. was a destabilizing force in the region that directly led to the rise of the Khmer Rouge”

    And the mess we caused in Cambodia was cleaned up by the Vietnamese, once we got the hell out.

  • Viet Nam is just another excuse to stay the course. If not Nam, Bush would find some other reason to keep our troops in Iraq. He will find any excuse he can come up with whether it makes sense or not. This isn’t about freedom or Democracy or even the Iraqis(whom Bush has been willing to sacrifice at the drop of a hat). Not counting the place being nuked into oblivion, Bush has never intended under any circumstances to ever leave Iraq.
    Anyone buying into this latest ruse is being led astray by the war profiteers and those out to steal the resources of Iraq. Bush is using viet nam references as an excuse or reason to attack Iran (presumably just like we began bombing Cambodia for supplying supplies).
    Just when you thought the focus was on withdrawing from Iraq Bush is going to up the ante and bomb Iran. Why our leaders can’t see this and stop Bush now before the mass murder of thousands of innocent Iranians just as he murdered nearly a million innocent Iraqis. Time has run out. Bush must be stopped NOW. Viet Nam comparisons are the backdrop for justifying the Iran attack. Impeach Cheney now to disrupt this plan.

  • When comedians 2-weeks into the invasion suggestion “Iraq was Arabic for Vietnam” it was a joke.

    If anybody suggested it seriously they would be derided as a cheese-eating surrender monkey.

    Over 3,000 serviceman killed, it’s no-longer funny, but now this draft-dodging administation is trying to use Vietnam as an excuse to stay put.

    If Congress needed anymore evidence that the Administration is ‘incompetent to command’, they have it now. It is their duty to consider impeachment.

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