Bush was ‘aware’ and ‘approved’ of the Principals’ torture discussions

ABC News reported this week that a group of so-called “Principals” — including Vice President Dick Cheney, Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, Secretary of State Colin Powell, CIA Director George Tenet, Attorney General John Ashcroft, and National Security Advisor Condoleezza Rice — met dozens of times in the White House to “discuss and approve” specific interrogation techniques to be used against suspected terrorists.

The AP added to the revelations yesterday, noting, among other things, that Cheney & Co. “took care to insulate President Bush from a series of meetings where CIA interrogation methods, including waterboarding, which simulates drowning, were discussed and ultimately approved.”

Yesterday, perhaps anxious to dispel the notion that he was out of the loop, the president said — arguably, bragged — that he endorsed the Principals’ work from the outset.

President Bush says he knew his top national security advisers discussed and approved specific details about how high-value al Qaeda suspects would be interrogated by the Central Intelligence Agency, according to an exclusive interview with ABC News Friday.

“Well, we started to connect the dots in order to protect the American people.” Bush told ABC News White House correspondent Martha Raddatz. “And yes, I’m aware our national security team met on this issue. And I approved.”

When faced with more than seven years of scandals and outrages of various shapes and sizes, it’s easy to get inured to low expectations. Indeed, it’s difficult not to get hardened. But that’s all the more reason to pause to consider just what the president was conceding yesterday.

The top members of Bush’s team, including a constitutional officer, sat in the White House on multiple occasions to discuss in detail which torture techniques U.S. officials would use against detainees. The president of the United States a) doesn’t find these revelations especially “startling”; and b) is comfortable telling a national television audience that he was “aware” of the meetings and “approved” of the Principals’ efforts.

Digby’s take was spot on:

There was a time when the Village clucked and screeched about “defiling the white house” with an extra marital affair or hosting fund raising coffees. I would say this leaves a far greater stain on that institution than any sexual act could ever do. They did this in your name, Americans.

The vice president, national security advisor and members of the president’s cabinet sat around the white house “choreographing” the torture and the president approved it. I have to say that even in my most vivid imaginings about this torture scheme it didn’t occur to me that the highest levels of the cabinet were personally involved (except Cheney and Rumsfeld, of course) much less that we would reach a point where the president of the United States would shrug his shoulders and say he approved. I assumed they were all vaguely knowledgeable, some more than others, but that they would have done everything in their power to keep their own fingerprints off of it. But no. It sounds as though they were eagerly involved, they all signed off unanimously and thought nothing of it.

Curiously, the president’s concession to ABC seems to be of only mild interest this morning. The WaPo had an item on page A3, but the NYT didn’t mention the remarks, and there’s no AP story. Even ABC News itself is downplaying the significance of its own story — on its website, the main story is the debate over whether Obama is right about working class families’ “bitterness,” followed by an item about Hillary telling Bill to stop talking about Bosnia. (The lead video on ABC News’ site isn’t the Bush interview, it’s “Dumb Robber Leaves Resume.”)

Then there’s a story about the president endorsing his team’s torture efforts.

Somehow, it seems like this story deserves a little more attention.

One is reminded of the concept of “the banality of evil” that has come to be associated with the Nazis and the holocaust.

The president shrugs, and I can assure you from reading comments that the 28percenters think it’s cool that the highest levels of government sat around as if talking about pulling the legs off grasshoppers and dropping them on an angry red ant pile – that they considered the torture of human beings to be no different from the unknowing evil of an uneducated child.

Germans I know who lived in that time know that the stain on them will only leave when they are dead and buried, that they were there. The same is true of us.

This is so far beyond awful. And there is no chance of these war criminals being held accountable for their crimes, since that only happens after a country has been defeated.

  • This just goes to show how truly evil and stupid Bush is. It truly blows my mind that he would just shrug and admit this. If there is a hell he deserves the lowest ring. As to the Hague, since he never left the country before he got elected I really dont see him leaving it after he leaves office. Perhaps a rendition is called for? I believe in karma, but would truly love to be around when fate comes around to bite him in the ass and he received the same treatment that he felt no compunction dealing out to the thousands who have been a victim of these policies. Couldnt happen to a more deserving person…just disgusting. And in a way, the traditional press’ response to this is even more disgusting. What’s wrong with these people?

  • Digby:

    I have to say that even in my most vivid imaginings about this torture scheme it didn’t occur to me that the highest levels of the cabinet were personally involved…

    You got to be kidding me.

    Even a casual reading of Bush’s youth shows that he seriously lacked empathy. And that is putting it mildly… Truth is: Bush’s history shows a brute callousness and a tendency towards sociopathy. When a child blows up frogs for fun, and then continues to kill animals for sport later in life, and derides those less fortunate, and even mocks a woman on death row… I’d say… one’s personality is tab bit suspect.

    I’ve been writing for years that Bush is the source and the inspiration for the torture that occurred.
    He is torture’s taproot. I’d bet my IRA on it….

  • When faced with more than seven years of scandals and outrages of various shapes and sizes, it’s easy to get inured to low expectations. Indeed, it’s difficult not to get hardened.

    This is the danger: the death of our capacity for outrage and horror.

  • I don’t want to minimize in any way the awfulness of high government officials having a practical discussion about torture — Can you say ‘War Crimes’ boys and girls?

    But this is absolutely typical of the Bush administration and explains why the last seven years have been such a clusterf*ck.

    You have an oil executive (Cheney), couple of college professors (Tenet and Rice), a career Republican bureaucrat (Rumsfeld), a Republican politician (Ashcroft) and a professional soldier (Powell) sitting at a table discussing how to gather intelligence from captured suspects. The problem is, it didn’t seem to occur to any of them that they didn’t have the expertise to form an opinion about how to interrogate anyone.

    I’ve been saying for years that the real problem with Bush is that his Harvard MBA makes him think like the guy in the commercial who stayed at a Holiday Inn last night:

    “Run an oil company? I don’t need to know what I’m doing, I have a Harvard MBA!”

    “Perform brain surgery? I can do that. Who needs medical school, I have a Harvard MBA!”

    “Plan a strategy to invade and occupy a large country in the Middle East? I don’t need to listen to experts, I have a Harvard MBA!”

    Obviously, many others in the high ranks of the Bush administration share his delusion of competence.

  • Amen, Maria. This post has been up for almost an hour and only four comments. I think one of the reasons for this is many of the readers have read many of the articles and books about the Bush Administration, and the pattern is that detail by detail, they seem to bear out. What starts out as an unnamed source saying something outrageous, eventually becomes proven. And the Bush administration merely shrugs and says it’s old news. Makes me want to cling onto my gun.

  • What Maria and TR said. The body politic is deadened by more than seven years of malfeasance…one incident after another.

    I wrote the Seattle Times asking when I would read their strong editorial stand on this truly appalling latest development.

    As conservative Margaret Thatcher said, “Enough is enough is enough.”

  • BushCo takes its strategy straight from the fascist playbook. First, create a shocking event (the burning of the Reichstag, 9/11) that terrifies the average citizen into believe that his world as he knows it is about to be destroyed by an enemy (Communists, Jews, Muslims) that is the embodiment of evil. Therefore, any method of defeating that enemy becomes acceptable. The sad fact is, most conservatives now believe that “Islamic terrorism” is such a threat to civilization that barbaric practices like torture are not only acceptable, but necessary to defeat it. Anybody who opposes torture is then labeled unpatriotic or cowardly. And sadly, I don’t know how you put that genie back in the bottle except by prosecuting BushCo for war crimes which, as we know, will never happen.

  • Nothing of substance to add here, just wanted to bear witness to the deep national disgrace this story describes and add my shock and outrage and deep sadness that, with the exception of people like the honorable commenters here, the nation accepts it with a grunt and a shrug, then changes the channel.

  • Nothing to see here, folks. Yeah… we’re torturing people. Even though the President said we do NOT torture. Period. So what if the President’s a liar, everyone knows it, and no one in the press seems to care? It’s not like there’s any moral ground or lives at stake, right?

    …oh, wait.

  • Bush sounds as though the idea of a war crimes trial of his administration hasn’t even occurred to him. Is his bubble so solid that he’s unaware than millions of Americans are crying for his head? Or does he believe his administration is above every law on earth?

    He fits every characteristic of a sociopath, folks, and the only way to keep others safe from them is a permanent solution.

    Here is a list of ways to identify a sociopath. This list is from “Profile of a Sociopath”. Is is a pretty good list of sociopathic indicators.

    * Glibness/Superficial Charm
    * Manipulative and Conning
    * Grandiose Sense of Self
    * Pathological Lying
    * Lack of Remorse, Shame or Guilt
    * Shallow Emotions
    * Incapacity for Love
    * Need for Stimulation
    * Callousness/Lack of Empathy
    * Poor Behavioral Controls/Impulsive Nature
    * Early Behavior Problems/Juvenile Delinquency
    * Irresponsibility/Unreliability
    * Promiscuous Sexual Behavior/Infidelity
    * Lack of Realistic Life Plan/Parasitic Lifestyle
    * Criminal or Entrepreneurial Versatility
    * Contemptuous of those who seek to understand them
    * Does not perceive that anything is wrong with them
    * Authoritarian
    * Secretive
    * Paranoid
    * Only rarely in difficulty with the law, but seeks out situations where their tyrannical behavior will be tolerated, condoned, or admired
    * Conventional appearance
    * Goal of enslavement of their victim(s)
    * Exercises despotic control over every aspect of the victim’s life
    * Has an emotional need to justify their crimes and therefore needs their victim’s affirmation (respect, gratitude and love)
    * Ultimate goal is the creation of a willing victim
    * Incapable of real human attachment to another
    * Unable to feel remorse or guilt
    * Narcissism, grandiosity (self-importance not based on achievments)
    * May state readily that their goal is to rule the world

    (Obviously, in order to be a sociopath a person doesn’t have to exhibit anything like all the above. Usually, the lack of a conscience, the manipulation of others, dishonesty and the inability to love and/or have lasting and profound personal relations and cruelty are key symptoms and often much more revealing than having been in trouble with the courts).

    Here is more input and personal anecdotes from other FAQ Farmers to help you know if someone is a sociopath:

    http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_do_you_know_if_someone_is_a_sociopath

  • thanks, dubya, for admitting in public that you committed war crimes. it will make it so much easier to obtain a conviction when you’re out of office.

  • Torture begets torture. I don’t know how self-reflective these Bushco criminals can be but once they leave office and loose the source of their power that props up their nefarious egos, they will face the constant drip, drip, drip of self doubt as they slowly start to comprehend the horror of their actions. The seed was already sown by Ashcroft. They are starting to unravel, which is exactly what Bush’s comment this week reflects. Legal measures will take more time, but I have every confidence in America that there are enough honorable citizens that are truely outraged by Bushcos actions that they will not accept to be tainted by the acts of these criminals.

    Watch their faces closely, you can see that it is starting.

  • There is no statute of limitations for war crimes. And Bush has just confessed. Personally, I won’t feel safe and free until Jan 21,2009 and they are out of the White House.

  • Remember folks, this is the result of Moral Majority, this is the “cleaning up of the mess in the White House”, this is what they call putting God back into the Laws of the Land. Bush’s reign has unleashed the most unholy and godless facets of man’s imagination, his time in office marked by disasters of Biblical proportion, yet champions of “Christian morality” like Hagee, Robertson, and others blame divine punishment on America’s “sins” of homosexuality and abortion.

    Bush has been in office over seven years and we’ve been torturing people all over the world for at least six of those years. The slaughter in Iraq is massive beyond all of Sadaam Hussein’s years of executions, the description of Iraq’s current state from Petraeus and Crocker is indefensible to the point where we pay the enemy not to fight.

    If ever there was a place for religious leaders to rebuke a nation and its government it is here and now. Yet, whenever I hear Rev. Hagee, Pat Robertson, and others I am struck by one overwhelming conclusion: God is dead, and they keep killing Her.

  • This is the kind of thing Rev. Wright meant when he said, “God damn America.”

  • So I guess the big question now is whether the existence of the White House Interrogation snuff/torture DVD library, will come out before or after the November elections.

  • What is there to say, if there’s nothing we can *do*? Which is what Bush was banking on, when he bald-facedly admitted to being in on all the “technical details” from the start. To him it’s all “sticks and stones”; he”s been telling us to go cheney ourselves for years and we took his advice meekly enough, with barely a bleat every now and then.

    As for the Corporate Media sitting mum on it… Maybe they’re waiting to see if there’s a flap about it in the blogs, before they decide to pitch in. Orr maybe they’re waiting for Monday, to have a bigger impact/not spoil everyone’s weekend. ’cause, you know, God forbid we should discuss something as serious as this on a weekend. Not everyone is Jeremiah Wright, after all.

  • “What Maria and TR said. The body politic is deadened by more than seven years of malfeasance…one incident after another.”

    And let’s not forget the blowjob that became a national disaster and how Bill Clinton spent the last years of his presidency wagging his finger (and other body parts) instead actually governing. Obviously not nearly as reprehensible as what Bush has done but to me just as perplexing. How anyone could support more years of this confederacy of crooks and cunts is simply beyond my comprehension. (Woopsie! I said the C word)

    Hillary Clinton = Same shit different flies.

    Frankly I’m not convinced we’re just numb. I think we’ve gotten lazy plus we’ve allowed fear to stop us dead in our tracks when historically it is only fearlessness which pushes back the darkness. We can’t be activists while sitting on our collective asses blogging. No offense to anyone here, as I am as guilty of this as the next girl, but you have to wonder how in hell any of the radical changes in the Sixties could’ve happened had we all been staring at a computer, never feeling that boundless human energy amassed when uniting and fighting.

    We simply must take it to the streets. Steve Benen, you could easily be that catalyst.

  • Two Questions:
    1) How many times did Bush lie to our faces ?
    2) Where there any ‘techniques’ they did not approve ?

    The fact that anyone believes anything coming out of the White House goes to show no one gives a fuck. We can’t even get subpoenaed people to appear before Congress, how exactly are we going to hold the masterminds accountable.

    Like Wall Street, the clowns have figured out how to game the system. Not very hard so long as you have absolutely so sense of shame and have no respect for the law.

  • I think that we should be clear that the main point here isn’t mainly that the President* approved of torture, but that he thinks he needs to assert that he knew that just down the hall the highest levels of government were deciding how to at the vary least push the envelope on inhumane treatment that came just shy of “shocking the conscience,” and that he was either too incurious, or too worried to walk down the hall and take part.

  • ScottW714 says: Like Wall Street, the clowns have figured out how to game the system. Not very hard so long as you have absolutely so sense of shame and have no respect for the law.

    Nixon had absolutely so sense of shame or respect for the law, but he had something very important which Bush lacks…

    A serious media watchdog.

    Today we have the Corporation News, with all-day coverage of whatever stupid issue they think the average idiot will take interest in, and ZERO coverage of anything serious which requires any amount of explanation and/or introspection. Edward R Murrow would be in our faces right now, asking us if the founding fathers would have approved of torture, even when faced with a far more powerful and dangerous threat to the nation. Today most Americans would change the channel, if he ever got on TV at all.

    We have become a nation of nuclear-armed idiots, who are willing to give up everything the founders worked for in exchange for a promise of safety from a bogeyman conjured up by people we don’t even believe anymore. And all our information comes from the people who are actually behind all of this, the corporations, which make more money every time they make us a little bit dumber.

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