Bush’s torture memos come with consequences

The debate over U.S. torture policy erupted yesterday on the Hill, in the wake of yesterday’s NYT blockbuster, highlighting secret legal opinions from the Bush administration, which endorsed “the harshest interrogation techniques ever used by the Central Intelligence Agency.” After insisting publicly that “torture is abhorrent,” Bush officials “provided explicit authorization to barrage terror suspects with a combination of painful physical and psychological tactics,” including simulated drownings and freezing temperatures.

The president’s aides fanned out to deny, defend, and spin the revelations, but for my money, the most impressive argument came by way of Frances Fragos Townsend.

White House homeland security adviser Frances Fragos Townsend also dismissed objections to the CIA program yesterday, saying during an appearance on CNN that al-Qaeda members are trained to resist harsh interrogations. She said that “we start with the least harsh measures first” and stop the progression “if someone becomes cooperative.”

Now, this is amazing for a couple of reasons. First, the notion of being trained to resist drownings has always seemed rather far-fetched. Unless al Qaeda has figured out a way to equip terrorists with gills, there isn’t much anyone can do to prepare for waterboarding.

But it’s that second part that’s particularly noteworthy. As Townsend described it, on national television, the painful physical and psychological tactics, which are unlawful, are suspended when the a detainee “becomes cooperative.” In other words, “We stop torturing when we get what we want out of the suspect.”

That’s not a defense for abuse; that’s insane. Townsend is arguing that we stop torturing people after they give us the intelligence we’ve beaten out of them? That’s supposed to make us feel better about abusive, illegal interrogation techniques?

This is exactly why torture produces unreliable information — the tortured will simply say anything to get the abuse to stop. The detainees become desperate to be “cooperative,” whether they have the intelligence officials want or not. Townsend’s defense, in this sense, is patently ridiculous.

Indeed, consider this tidbit from yesterday’s NYT piece.

[W]hen the C.I.A. caught Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, the chief planner of the Sept. 11 attacks, interrogators were again haunted by uncertainty. Former intelligence officials, for the first time, disclosed that a variety of tough interrogation tactics were used about 100 times over two weeks on Mr. Mohammed. Agency officials then ordered a halt, fearing the combined assault might have amounted to illegal torture. A C.I.A. spokesman, George Little, declined to discuss the handling of Mr. Mohammed. Mr. Little said the program “has been conducted lawfully, with great care and close review” and “has helped our country disrupt terrorist plots and save innocent lives.”

“The agency has always sought a clear legal framework, conducting the program in strict accord with U.S. law, and protecting the officers who go face-to-face with ruthless terrorists,” Mr. Little added.

Some intelligence officers say that many of Mr. Mohammed’s statements proved exaggerated or false. One problem, a former senior agency official said, was that the C.I.A.’s initial interrogators were not experts on Mr. Mohammed’s background or Al Qaeda, and it took about a month to get such an expert to the secret prison. The former official said many C.I.A. professionals now believe patient, repeated questioning by well-informed experts is more effective than harsh physical pressure.

The point isn’t that Khalid Sheikh Mohammed should have been coddled; the man is a cold-blooded killer. The point is that we tortured the monster and came up with “exaggerated or false” intelligence, which is what someone produces when they’re desperate to stop the abuse.

As for the consequences of the NYT revelations, Congress, at least for now, appears to be taking this very seriously.

The disclosure of secret Justice Department legal opinions on interrogation on Thursday set off a bitter round of debate over the treatment of terrorism suspects in American custody and whether Congress has been adequately informed of legal policies.

Democrats on Capitol Hill demanded to see the classified memorandums, disclosed Thursday by The New York Times, that gave the Central Intelligence Agency expansive approval in 2005 for harsh interrogation techniques.

Senator John D. Rockefeller IV, the West Virginia Democrat who is chairman of the Senate Intelligence Committee, wrote to the acting attorney general, Peter D. Keisler, asking for copies of all opinions on interrogation since 2004.

“I find it unfathomable that the committee tasked with oversight of the C.I.A.’s detention and interrogation program would be provided more information by The New York Times than by the Department of Justice,” Mr. Rockefeller wrote.

So far, White House officials are resisting disclosure (natch), and the House Judiciary Committee is vowing to hold hearings on the issue. “Both the alleged content of these opinions and the fact that they have been kept secret from Congress are extremely troubling,” Chairman John Conyers Jr. (D-Mich.) and Rep. Jerrold Nadler (D-N.Y.) said in a letter to acting Attorney General Peter D. Keisler.

Stay tuned.

when we start behaving like the terrorists, then they win, instead of making them more like us, they are making us more like them

  • I can’t get the Brother Bones’ whistled version of “Sweet Georgia Brown” out of my head after reading this. It can’t be an accident that the Democrats are stupefied by the Bush Cabal/NeoCons at every turn. It’s the Washington Generals (the Dems) losing to the Harlem Globetrotters (the NeoCons), always the same result.

    The fix is in. The joke is on us.

  • Unless al Qaeda has figured out a way to equip terrorists with gills, there isn’t much anyone can to prepare for waterboarding.

    In theory, one could prepare for torture by valuing information more than one’s own life. One might also refuse to grant interrogators the power to dominate. They can do whatever they want to the body, but they can’t break the will.

    In theory.

  • Congress is having its mettle tested. Sen. Edward Kennedy is acting quickly on this latest development:

    Senator Kennedy says he is sponsoring legislation to apply the standards of the army field manual to all U.S. government interrogations, including the Central Intelligence Agency.

    http://voanews.com/english/2007-10-04-voa58.cfm

    That’s good news but the Bush administration has consistently ignored and flaunted the many US laws already on the books forbidding torture. There’s no reason to think any new law will make them stop, as long as they’re at the helm. They will continue to try to bamboozle Congress and America by flagellating the definition of torture and secretly continuing the practice. The only thing that will stop them is removal from office.

    Why don’t the Democrats understand this?

  • Here’s is one question I would like a reporter to ask the administration:

    If a government, say China or Iran, or an organization, such as Hamas or one of the Sunni groups in Iraq, used these methods on captured US soldiers, what would be our official response?

    jkb

  • It’s painfully obvious these fools in the WH are sadists. They only want torture because they themselves have never been tortured. They are rationalizing their own delusions that they don’t torture, they simply “extract information.” Or, could it be that in this disconnect between our nation’s values and the Bush gang’s penchant to trounce upon them stems from their collective puerile fantasy of omnipotence? -Kevo

  • What JKap said.

    How many more times will the Dem “leadership” take the outrage du jour “seriously” and then do virtually nothing before we all figure out that the fix is in? All I can say is that they must have some good dirt on Pelosi and Reid.

    But maybe they’re just being realistic on this one, after all, Americans think 24 isn’t just fiction, they think torture works. No amount of reasoning and data will dissuade them either.

  • It has been said, from all corners of the discussion and not merely some, that senior members of this administration “watched with unbridled enthusiasm” the hanging of Saddam Hussein—for crimes against humanity.

    Regardless of what the spin-artists of the right have to say on this issue, History will eventually record—for all posterity—that those members of this Government who have actively promoted, implemented, or authorized the commission of such heinous acts shall—without any shred of doubt—face a like consequence for their actions. The politicians; the general-staff officers and regular soldiers; the political mercenaries; the media participants and intelligence service individuals will all be brought forth before the world to answer for their actions against humanity. They will pay the price deemed both fitting for their actions, and sufficient to guarantee that there is no opportunity for a “rescue mission” from a cell.

    That price is singular; that price is permanent; that price is the gallows.

    Sic Semper Tyrannis….

  • I think the problem here is that there has been a complete failure to take into consideration what this country stands for, what its principles are, and there appears to have be little or no thought or analysis given as to how to preserve the core of what we are while addressing the need to protect us from future attacks.

    If the ultimate goal was to eliminate as much terrorism as possible from the world at large, while at the same time promoting democracy and freedom, we needed not to abandon the things that have allowed our own democracy to withstand all kinds of crises over several hundred years, but to embrace them with a renewed vigor.

    This failure to work within the law, and in accordance with who we are as a nation and as a people, happened because the executive branch made the decision to treat the legislative and judicial branches of government as vehicles for carrying out their plans and policies, not as co-equal branches which had the right and the duty to rein in the executive when it got out of line.

    Worse, those running the other branches of government accepted this sea change in their role, abandoned oversight and green-lighted everything this president asked for – and closed their eyes when he continued to violate existing law. When, occasionally, even those who were considered staunch cheerleaders for the WH had their doubts, the WH and AG response was to just lie about what they were doing.

    So, not only can we not trust much of anything coming out of the WH or the Justice Department, we have also lost credibility and moral authority around the world.

    It is not enough to talk about what needs to change – it is long past time to just make the change. And if ever there was an argument for impeachment, it is that even with a concerted effort to make changes, we have no reason to believe that the president, the vice-president, and the agencies and departments under their supervision, will obey.

    When there is a cancer that threatens to kill you, you don’t treat it by just talking to it sternly and working around the margins; you remove it.

  • As is their wont, the Dems will posture and hold press conferences and talk to reporters about ‘how bad this all is’ and ‘how this is not how Americans do things,’ etc., but in the end, they will do nothing. The Administration will not provide information about anything, and the Dems will hoot and holler about how unfair it all is, and how it is their Constitutional prerogative for oversight, but they will cave.

    As GG said in his post yesterday, we could do something about all of this, but we have apparently decided to accept it all instead of doing the dirty work of actually using our Constitutional authority and hauling responsible members of this Administration in front of the cameras and off to jail. The Administration knows this, and continues to play Congress for fools. Now, we are all fools. And the Administration will get away with it. Again.

  • The point isn’t that Khalid Sheikh Mohammed should have been coddled; the man is cold-blooded killer. The point is that we tortured the monster and came up with “exaggerated or false” intelligence…

    I fear that if we are at the point where we must argue that torture is ineffective and not just inhumane and morally reprehensible then we have already lost what it is to be Americans and humans.

    The fact that it doesn’t work will only make those who believe in it try harder and develop more sadistic methods.

  • What about the innocent guys that have no way to ‘cooperate’ ??
    That’s where the real problem lies.

    I am pretty much indifferent about torturing a cold-blooded killer, but when it comes to the people who are being tortured that have nothing to offer, nothing to make it stop, that is when my skin starts crawling.

    I can live with Khalid Sheikh Mohammed being tortured and giving us bad info, I can’t live with the countless others being deprived of basic human rights because they were in the wrong place at the wrong time.

  • Scott W

    But in civilized countries under international law, it takes a trial (the more public for all to see, the better) where guilt is established and a sentence to designate punishment.

    So, though I understand it, I don’t think your gut-feeling, which might be shared by some, ought to be driving what the US does with prisoners. Khalid Sheikh Mohammed’s provable crimes certainly justify taking him into custody and holding him for trial and sentencing for the world to witness. This is a much more effective way of fighting terrorism in my book.

  • And Osama Bin Laden laughs and laughs.

    Then he sends his men out on another recruiting drive.

    And of course, now every psycho on the planet knows exactly what it takes to make the US shit its pants and turn into the sort of place where any common-or-garden dictator would feel right at home. If someone really wanted to finish the US it wouldn’t even need to be as big and spectacular as the Sept. 11th attacks.

  • Townsend is arguing that we stop torturing people after they give us the intelligence we’ve beaten out of them? That’s supposed to make us feel better about abusive, illegal interrogation techniques?

    No, no, no, that’s supposed to make us feel superior to all the other torturers who continue to torture even after they get the intelligence they want.

  • anney.
    I am against torture in any way. My point, that I missed, was if you want to appeal to the masses, don’t bring up the planner of 9/11 (ahem, CB), cause I don’t even have a problem with him and I am fairly liberal. Instead of using Khalid Sheikh Mohammed as an example, maybe use of of those kids at Gitmo, far more effective in changing policy and that is the point, right ??

    I am also pretty indifferent with the death penalty, but when innocent people get caught in the nets, it’s makes my skin crawl enough that I can not, in good faith, condone either.

    So no torture, no death penalty, not for moral reasons, but because humans are in charge and humans make far too many mistakes, sometimes on purpose.

  • Cheney could wear the head of some suspected ql qaeda member on his head and Perino would deny that we torture. What Frances Townsend was saying is that we don’t torture for fun…only to get information. All information they got from torture could have been obtained without the use of torture. We torture until we get the information we want or until they become cooperative???

    You’re absolutely right calling this absurd CB. Trained to resist interrogation techniques is total bullshit. These sadist have brought nothing but shame to our nation and there is no punishment great enough for these bastards.

    They have murdered the soul and will of the victim but leave them alive to endure it for the rest of their lives. Extremely unsuccessful victims who actually don’t know anything are tortured to death because they don’t know enough to be “cooperative “. Trying to justify this behavior is the last straw from a murderous rogue government that is not representative of American people.

  • A friend of mine in academe does research on South Africa’s Truth and Reconciliation (TNR) Commission. The Commission investigated abuses under the old apartheid regimes, held hearings, and demanded testimony from the highest of officials – even former prime ministers…

    We will be so in need of our own version of a TNR after the Repubs are voted out of the White House…

  • Anney: I thought your link (#11) was incredible and I encourage everyone to have a look. I for one believe that congress will complain but do nothing, Impeachment is the only way to begin to restore our good name and all we used to stand for as Americans. I am not holding my breath and I would not suggest any of you hold your breath either. I am not sure who is more repulsive to me, the wicked people in control of the executive branch or the cowards in Congress who enable the destruction of our republic.

  • That Townsend woman is actually rather frightening, in that she gives no second thought to any measure this administration may take. Her comment reveals a sick mind. She basically says “If you don’t cooperate, the pain is your fault”. It takes on an ominous caste. “We have ways of making you talk…”

  • Comments are closed.