Candidates and superdelegates and brokered conventions … oh my

There are a total number of 4,049 Democratic delegates available in the presidential nominating process, making 2,025 the magic number for each candidate. If no candidate reaches the threshold in time, Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama will have themselves a good ol’ fashioned brokered convention in Denver this August.

I’ve gone back and forth on whether this likely to happen, or just a political science pipe-dream. With John Edwards in the race, it seemed possible. After he dropped out, it seemed less likely. But now, following a Super Tuesday that effectively amounted to a tie, I’m back to thinking it may very well happen after all.

The reason is pretty straightforward: Obama has a slight edge in pledged delegates (Dems who vote in primaries and caucuses), while Clinton has a slight edge in superdelegates (lawmakers, governors, DNC members, establishment types). Taken together, they each have about 1,000 delegates. As Jonathan Cohn explained, it’s going to be tricky for either of them to get to 2,025.

In the remaining primaries and caucuses, only 1,787 delegates are at stake. So to win the nomination on pledged delegates alone, a candidate has to win 57 percent of those at stake. And that won’t be so easy to do.

Remember, the Democrats don’t have winner-take-all contests anymore. The primaries and caucuses award delegates with formulas that are based on proportional representation. In a situation where two candidates, each with solid funding, are running strong, it will be difficult to run up large margins. It’s entirely possible we’ll see a lot of results like last night, in which — after all the back-and-forth over who won which state — the two finished nearly even in delegates won.

Exactly. Neither one can put the other one away.

This not only means a brokered convention, it also means a dynamic in which superdelegates pick the Democratic nominee.

To brush up on the details of the process, I recommend Sam Boyd’s American Prospect piece from a couple of weeks ago, but to make a long story short, superdelegates — 20% of the total — are “DNC members, all Democratic members of Congress, Democratic governors, and certain former party leaders. Essentially they represent both Washington insiders and the leadership of the state parties.”

Ordinarily, a candidate emerges through the nominating process, and the superdelegates are along for the ride. This year, they may be in a position to dictate the outcome. As Josh Marshall noted this morning, “With primary voters unable to settle it, it goes to Democratic officeholders, which is by and large who the super delegates are. So that’s what I’m looking at. Who has super delegate endorsements to roll out this morning? Who do elected Democrats want to run with?”

That’s basically all the superdelegates are looking for — a candidate who can win, and a candidate who’ll help other Democrats win. Who they’d back is still a matter up for debate.

Ezra argued, “I really, really hope the Democratic primary doesn’t come down to superdelegates — the privileged class of delegate that gets to vote however they want, and were created to ensure that party elites didn’t lose too much control over the process.” That immediately struck me as correct, though Kevin raises a fair point.

Maybe I’m just being contrarian here, but why would this be so bad? After all, the only way it could happen is if the voters themselves split nearly 50-50. And in that case, the nomination would end up being decided by a massive effort to sway uncommitted delegates anyway. So who cares if that massive effort is directed at superdelegates (senators, governors, etc.) or the more plebeian regular delegates (typically county chairs, local activists, etc.). And in any case, why shouldn’t the party elders, many of whom have to run on the same ticket as the presidential nominee, get a little extra say in the process?

Fair enough. I think the problem, which Kevin goes on to highlight, is that party big shots will be in a position to effectively override the will of rank-and-file Democrats. The people will come to one conclusion, powerful insiders will come to another, and it’s the establishment that will have the final call.

Barack Obama seems well aware of this scenario, and explained his perspective at a press conference in Chicago this morning.

Obama also made some interesting comments about his route to the nomination, saying that he’ll amass a higher total of pledged delegates as a way of putting pressure on committed super-delegates to honor the Democratic process, forgo back-room politics, and back the candidate with the most public support.

“If this contest comes down to super-delegates, I think we’re going to be able to say that we have more pledged delegates — meaning that the Democratic voters have spoken,” Obama said. “And I think that those SD’s who are elected officials, party insiders, would have to think long and hard about how they approach the nomination when the people they claim to represent have said, `Obama’s our guy.'”

If Clinton and Obama go to the convention tied (or practically tied) among pledged delegates, this is a moot point. Superdelegates can break tie. But the possibility for real ugliness emerges if Democratic voters have spoken, and Democratic insiders silence them by picking the candidate who came in second.

If the super delegates pick # 2 or if FL & MI somehow get seated and are decisive the Democratic Party will be in a heap of trouble. Now the Party loves to hurt itself so I don’t put it past them to do something stupid.

  • Are those numbers on pledged delegates (and who has the higher totals) taking into account the Michigan and Florida delegate debacles?

    Jeebus – at the time everyone was busy throwing their weight around I didn’t think it was going to be much of an issue, though I thought both the action and the response were stupid. Now it’s even more obvious that the Dems should have done what the GOP did and just cut each state’s delgations by half instead of dropping them altogether if they felt like punishing the legislatures for moving the dates around. What a jumbled mess.

  • Explain how superdelegates are “pledged”? How can a candidate have an edge in superdelegates? Are you considering superdelegates who have endorsed one candidate or the other? As I understand it, superdelegates are under no obligation to vote for a particular candidate. Is that correct?

  • Reminds me of when the Supreme Court stepped in to decide another election.

    Screw Democracy, we’re the elites.

    Ugh.

  • …just a political science pipe-dream…

    Or, political science fiction. Like when robots are given the right to vote, and rich people program their autonomous limos to cast phony ballots.

    Since Hillary Clinton reads this blog to receive communiques from me, here’s what I have to tell her. Point to Obama’s continuing strength as the reason why you’re dropping the stupid “won’t be ready on day 1” argument. Acknowledge his competence so that, in case Obama is the nominee, the Republican won’t be able to quote your words when challenging his experience. (Which will happen regardless.) Tell everyone what they already think: Obama is great. If you must, argue that you’re better, for reason A, B, C.

  • Let the superdelegates vote first and they decide nothing. Then let the regular delegates vote to decide it.

    whatever happened to having mulitple votes on the convention floor? don’t the delegates have to vote once for their official choice and then are free to vote however they want?

  • I think the point Obama and others may be trying to make is that while those superdelegates who are elected officials have the right to vote any way they choose, they will still have to answer to the voters sooner or later and this may weigh on their ultimate decisions.

    On the other hand, since the majority of the party would be satisfied with either Clinton or Obama, they may not hold a grudge too long even if the superdelegates don’t go for their first choice of candidate.

    My only question is, should I take the aspirin now or wait for the headache to show up? Sheesh……

  • I think the problem, which Kevin goes on to highlight, is that party big shots will be in a position to effectively override the will of rank-and-file Democrats.

    But the larger point of your piece, CB, seems to be that this really can’t happen: the Superdelegates only have enough votes to be meaningful if the rank and file hasn’t clearly spoken.

    Also, I’m beginning to think referring to the Democratic apportionment system as “proportional representation” is nonsense, and I suspect there will be a hard look at those rules before the next cycle. In Nevada, Clinton “won,” but Obama captured more delegates; last night in several states Obama “won,” but Clinton captured more delegates, and in several states (both Clinton and Obama states) the delegate results were not particularly proportional to the vote percentages. It seems the proportional representation formula actually results in proportional representation in the minority of cases. The Democratic powers that be appears to have over thought themselves on this one.

  • To solve MI and FL, what I would do is just split the delegates in half. That way it punishes MI and FL for moving up their primaries, but solves the problem of their delegates not being seated since both candidates agreed not to campaign there. The 50/50 split won’t matter in the great scheme of things, unless those delegates are just enough to push someone over the magic number.

    Of course, that makes way too much sense.

  • Getting beyond the Obama is the light of my world crowd, Hillary has shown she can win in the General Election. If either Gore or Kerry took Tennessee, OK or Arkansas, they would have won. Hillary can pick up any of the states they took plus a couple of southern states. Obama taking a lot of credit for picking up a bunch of states that won’t turn blue during the General. Winning Alaska, Idaho, ND and Utah mean nothing. Especially if you consider FLA and MI

  • My-oh-my… Quite ironic that the “working man’s” party’s candidate will be chosen by the elites.

  • As more endorsements come in after yesterday the picture will be much more clear. It is real simple if Obama gets more elected democrats to support him he will be the nominee. He will get a total of 1 from AK, 2 from ND, 1 from UT and maybe 1 from ID in superdelegates. Good state to claim victory but come on 400 votes in AK, 16,000 in ID after having claimed 20,000 at a rally Sunday lost in MA after super Ted and th MA establishment backed him to the hilts and still lost by 16%. There will be agreement on FL, MI long before convention time. I was stupid to disenfranchise so many voters in the first place.

  • I remember back in 2000, the will of the people was overlooked in favor of the candidate with the friends in the right places.

    Will we, the Democrats, be guilty of the same miscarriage of justice this summer? Will the will of the people be trumped by the Clinton’s bought and paid for Superdelegates?

  • As recently quoted on this blog, approximately 70 per cent of Obama supporters would vote for Hillary if she were the nominee and 70 per cent of Hillary supporters would vote for Obama. If rank and file Democrats would be happy with either candidate, why wouldn’t the super delegates? They want enough party unity to blow the GOP out of the water — they’ll pick the clear choice of the voters. Of course, if it’s a tie (and it might well be), we can expect a battle royal, some hurt feelings and quickly mended fences. But a fractured party like the Republicans right now? I don’t think so.

  • If Obama, the people’s choice, is passed over for Hillary, the establishment’s choice, how will that affect our hopes in the general election?

    The republicans simply have to say: “The voters in your own party didn’t want you, you are only here because of your bought and paid for friends….”

    Will African Americans show up to support Hillary, while knowing all the while that Obama was the people’s choice?

    Will the independants who would vote for Obama but cannot handle the stank of the Clinton family move over to the McCain camp?

    This Superdelegate mess is a Republican’s wet dream. Let’s hope our party does the right thing and nominates the people’s choice, Barack Obama. Let good prevail over evil, turn the page on the Clinton soap opera.

  • JRS Jr said: “My-oh-my… Quite ironic that the “working man’s” party’s candidate will be chosen by the elites.”

    About as ironic as Conservative pundits complaining that McCain won every delegate in Florida with 36% of the vote.

    Rules can be stupid, but people do crave them.

    If the primaries don’t produce a majority nominee, and remember Edwards is holding on to his delegates, then we have a brokered convention and the “elites” get to choose. For a taste of the reaction, consider Romney’s complaints about the results in West Virginia.

    Another case of Republican’ts being hoisted by their own petards.

  • Al Griffin said: “If Obama, the people’s choice, is passed over for Hillary, the establishment’s choice, how will that affect our hopes in the general election?”

    70% of Obama supporters are happy to support Hillary in the General.
    70% of Hillary supporters are happy to support Obama in the General.

    I think you are a little out of touch.

  • I just hope that our nominee is the one preferred by the people, Barack Obama. And not the one who has the most friends in the establishment, Hillary Clinton.

    This party cannot use another 4 years of the Clinton Stank that infected our nation in the 1990’s. We need a candidate that we can have pride in, not shame.

    Good v. Evil this election. Let’s hope Obama defeats Evil and her friends.

  • 70% of Obama supporters are happy to support Hillary in the General.
    70% of Hillary supporters are happy to support Obama in the General.

    Where have you heard that? I don’t believe that number.

    Anybody who likes Hillary is a hard core democrat. Any hard core democrat will ultimately support Obama, whether they admit it now or not.

    Obama has attracted an entirely new group of people to the party. Obama represents a turn of the page from the Clinton Stank.

    If Obama is the people’s choice, yet the Evil Empire buys enough super delegates to win the nomination, do you think these new members of our party, inspired by Obama, will turn out in support of Hillary? Or do you think they will feel cheated and either not show up or vote for McCain?

    Hillary is either loved or hated, there is no in between. Those who love her are already voting for her. She has no room to pick up more support in a general election.

  • I think the Obama team is just laying the ground work to arguing against the super delegates if they vote against him. I think that, up to a point, however, they are just as much a part of the process as the “people”. Therefore, regardless of the actual delegate count, whichever way they go is legitimate. For that reason, I would guess that if Obama thought he had most of the superdelegates, he’s not be making this argument, at least not out loud.

    It’s kind of like the electoral college in the Presidential election… one might think it’s unfair that they were able to override the will of the voters… but that’s the rules. And that makes it legitimate.

  • In the meantime, this process is devouring absurd amounts of money, funding a campaign industry that delights in indecision. Apart from annoying the losers, who will undoubtedly contribute vast sums to their candidate, the Democrats need to find a way of imposing a limit upon a circus that is spiraling out of control.

  • The establihment wants Obama. They’ve already had to eat crow on their boy king. They aren’t about to be able to swallow a vindication of the Clinton years. Too much to bear, going from fruitless scandel-mongering over trivialities, to looking the other way during Bush’s threat-to-the-Republic power grabs and incompetence, and then going back to getting the vapors over… whatever. They want Obama, BADLY — he’s an out for them, a way to go Democratic, as the nation inevitably will, and still dance on Clinton’s grave claiming the voters “rejected” her.

    I, for one, look forward to shoving the people’s candidate down the establishment’s throat so they choke on it.

  • So what I’m hearing is that since the superdelegates make up 20% of the total delegates needed, this means that Obama could get 49% of the elected delegates and Clinton could get 31% and if the superdelegates all go to Clinton, then she would be the nominee with 51% of the delegates, right? This is the situation that people are talking about when they say that the superdelegates could give the election to the person who came in second.

    However, if Obama and Clinton were within a few points of each other (ie 39-41 for example), then the superdelegates would pick whomever they want and it would not be as big of a deal, right? In fact, if the superdelegate split along the same lines, it would still be close but the winner of the elected delegates would be the nominee.

  • memekiller, there is no doubt that the people want Obama, and that the non-corrupt want Obama.

    But how about the hundreds of Super Delegates that the Clintons have already paid for? These SDs have already been purchased by the Evil Empire.

  • Al at #20: give me a break. What’s so shameful about the Clintons? I’ve yet to hear a single democratic Hillary Hater list even one really bad thing that didn’t come direct from the GOP playbook of lies and smears. To blithely call this primary “Good v. Evil” is an amazing distortion.

  • Zeitgeist– you said “But the larger point of your piece, CB, seems to be that this really can’t happen: the Superdelegates only have enough votes to be meaningful if the rank and file hasn’t clearly spoken.”

    The problem is, with the basically 50-50 split so far, and the proportional awarding of delegates, it is going to be very hard, even from this point, for Hillary or Obama to win outright. One may have a majority of pledged delegates at the convention, but, most likely, neither will have an outright majority when you include the superdelegates.

    Which means, post-super Tuesday, we have a highly-likely scenario wherein both candidates will need superdelegates to win. If it’s lopsided, not too much of a problem. But what if it’s running about even (like it is to date)?

    I can already see what the adverts from the Republicans would read: “here is Obama/Hillary, a candidate who the Democrats didn’t even support!”

    Simple answer? Having superdelegates was a very bad idea. While they remained innocuous annointers, they really didn’t matter. But now, if they actually do matter, it’s going to bite the entire party in the butt.

  • JC,

    If Obama emerges as the people’s choice, and holds a lead in the pledged delegates as determined by the voice of the people, you do not think it would be a big deal if the Clintons were able to purchase enough Super Delegate votes to tip the scale in her favor?

    Remember in 2000, when the person who received the most votes was passed over by the candidate with the better positioned friends? Were you upset when that happened? Was that not a big deal?

    How do you think African Americans will feel if they know that the democratic nominee, according to the voice of the people, was Barack Obama. But the elite decided they liked Hillary better, so she was our nominee? Do you think they would show up at the election booths in November, or do you think they would stay home with a full tank of apathy and disappointment in a political system which has cheated them for generations?

    This would be a disaster to the democratic party, and a wet dream for the republicans.

  • To Al #21

    I think either candidate would make a great president and I am currently supporting Obama. I know many people who like Obama better now but would have no problem voting for Hillary in the general election. But I also know a lot of people who say they refuse to vote for Hillary no matter what. So I think it can go either way, but Obama will pick up more independent and republican votes.

  • Just to reiterate, last night, when Obama talked about how he would remain friends with Hillary, and talked of hope and unity and “yes we can”, he was distributing this ABC-style rewriting of history.

    This urks me more than trying to claim Reagan was somehow “more transformative” than Clinton’s term. It’s bad enough when the press blames the victim, but it drives me nuts when Democrats keep buying into the GOP smears, hook, line and sinker.

    We keep acting like WE must have done something to make Republicans hate us. You know why they hate us? Because we’re not them. And since I will never be them, nor do I want to, I fully accept that they will hate me. The period of sucking up to blowhards who want nothing short of wiping our kind off the face of the planet is over. It’s time to do what’s Right, not what pleases David Broder and Nick Kristof.

  • Frank, #30

    You know a lot of people who refuse to vote for Hillary no matter what. So do I.

    How many Hillary supporters do you know who would refuse to vote for Barack no matter what?

    Barack didn’t spend the 1990’s shaming our country. There is not a preconceived notion, fair or not, that Barack’s first act as president will be to seek out the IRS’s most wanted so he has a client base to sell pardons to. Nobody thinks that Barack will take all the white house furniture and put it on ebay, put that money in his pocket, and then charge the taxpayers for a new set up.

    People who like Hillary like the democratic party and would support Barack.
    Many people (not all) who like Barack still have the wretched stench of the Clinton presidency lingering in their mind.

  • The only way I would vote for Hillary is if she promised to appoint Jennifer Flowers, Paula Jones and Monica Lewinsky to her cabinet.

    Oh yeah, and I want another promise that all proceeds from her sale of pardons will go to help her personal interests.

  • In 2000 we had a situation when the people’s choice did not win because he had some more powerful friends. I felt cheated that year.

    I am a Hillary Girl, but if she is not the people’s choice for nominee she should not be our candidate. It would be hypocritical if we now turned our heads to the same type of BS that we were subjected to in 2000.

    If Obama wins the most pledged delegates, Hillary should congratulate him and ask to be Vice President.

  • 20…Good point, we should not vote for Hillary because Rethugs hate her and she’s evil.

    This is precisely the reason Obamites make me nervous. He is not the second coming. I don’t get how you can pit Obama vs. Hillary as good vs. evil. If Obama is supposed to be the uniter, why is it that his supporters are so divisive? Obama and his folks are ripping apart the Democratic party in hopes of appealing to Republicans and Indies. Bashing the most popular Democratic President who lead during a peaceful, fiscally prudent and prosperous 8 years is dumb and diminishes the Democratic brand.

  • Obama supporters are divisive because of the Stank of Clinton.

    If Clinton were a popular democratic president, then Al Gore would have won in a landslide. Clinton did as much damage to the Democratic Party as Bush has done to the Republicans.

    By the time Al Gore ran for president, our economy was great, the country was safe, it should have been as easy as Bush Sr inheriting the presidency from Reagan.

    But Gore was affiliated with the Stank of Clinton, thus the race was close and was put in a position to have it stolen away by Bush’s friends (the way that Hillary is trying to buy off Super Delegates to steal the voice from the people in this election).

  • How many pledged delegates did Edwards have when he dropped out? How likely is it that he’ll be able to tip the balance by endosing a candidate?

  • Let us just hope that Edwards supports Good over Evil. I have confidence that Edwards will do so. Edwards does not like the stigma cast upon our party by the Clintons more than anybody else. Edwards wants us to take the White House, and he will suport the people’s choice, Barack Obama.

  • James– Edwards just had 26 pledged delegates, and not even really that. The ‘delegates’ that he won in the Iowa and Nevada Caucuses end up as unpledged delegates at the state conventions, which means that they will be re-distributed to the remaining candidates for the national convention. His impact, delegate-wise, will be basically non-existent. His impact via endorsement would be strictly political.

  • >Lance:
    70% of Obama supporters are happy to support Hillary in the General.
    70% of Hillary supporters are happy to support Obama in the General.

    I think you are a little out of touch.

  • Ugh!!!, It got truncated. The comments was this:

    Unless one candidate seems to be cheated out of nomination by unsavory machinations in the horse trading sessions leading up to and during the convention.

  • A significantly higher percentage of the 796 superdelegates are DNC types rather than elected officials. I think that it can be assumed that party caucuses are more reflective of the views of party activists than are primaries, which means that Obama will probably do okay among this group. It should be remembered that every state has a national committeeman and woman, and by the end of the process, Obama is going to win many more states than Clinton.

  • As a Registered Democrat, I would seriously consider voting for a Republican before voting for Hillary Clinton – Obama for President!

  • Actually, Memekiller (#17), this is the truth about the Clinton presidency and its “successes”.:

    Hillary screwed up health care with her “I know it all, you take direction from me” attitude as unelected “co-President.”

    Bill screwed the gay community with Don’t Ask Don’t Tell.

    Bill screwed American workers everywhere when he decided to export our jobs to Mexico through NAFTA.

    Bill screwed every progressive when he wouldn’t push to have environmental issues and worker’s rights made a main point of WTO. His championing of China despite everything those Stalinist-Maoist thugs do led directly to the place we are in today where they are buying us.

    Bill screwed the poor with his “Welfare Reform” that is now righteouslyu fucking the poor in the current situation.

    Bill lost a 40-year congressional majority.

    Hell, Jimmy Carter was a better Democratic President than the con artist from Hot Springs ever was. At least Carter didn’t sell out everything he ever claimed to believe in (as if Bill and Hillary have ever believed in anything other than Bill and Hillary) as he sold overnights in the Lincoln Bedroom to the highest bidders.

    And Billy-boy’s still doing it, with the corruption around his “foundation” and how he is undermining American national interests (even when his wife is supporting them) to get his quid-pro-quo “contributions.”

    JFK – assassinated. MLK – assassinated. RFK – assassinated. The Clintons – still walking around. There is no justice.

  • Al – I think it’s premature to say that Obama has emerged as the people’s choice. I also think it’s grossly unfair to say “there is no doubt that the people want Obama, and that the non-corrupt want Obama.” There are plenty of non-corrupt voters and commenters here who are strong Clinton supporters.

    On a different topic, I also think that the statistics that show most Democrats would back the ‘other’ candidate may not tell the whole story. For me, if Clinton ultimately wins the nomination, I will certainly pull the lever for her in November, and I will defend her against lies from the right… but I won’t be giving $, I won’t be volunteering, and I won’t be evangelizing to independent voters, ’cause I won’t be *excited* about her (and I don’t think there’s a chance in hell of persuading moderates who typically vote republican to support her). Maybe that’s exactly the same as Clinton supporters feel, and that’s totally fair… but I do think that there’s a set of Obama supporters who may not come “into the fold” at all, if they don’t remember the last time people were tricked into thinking there wasn’t a meaningful difference between Al Gore and W.

  • Memekiller @ 32 says Obama ” was distributing this ABC-style rewriting of history.”

    How did this pamphlet rewrite history? It merely points out that the Dems lost a lot of congressmen and governors while Bill Clinton was Pres., points out to polls that show Obama with more support among Inds. and Reps. and says “its time to turn the page on the divisive politics of the past.”

    Which part of this do you think needs changing? The only word I would change is “past”.

  • I am a registered Democrat. I would not vote for Hillary in the general election. The Clintons are a disgrace to our party, and I do not know how people can support them with a straight face.

  • Al Griffin said:
    memekiller, there is no doubt that the people want Obama, and that the non-corrupt want Obama.

    I don’t know if these are Lama Obama’s true believers or just Clinton-hatin’ Clinton-baitin’ “outside agitators” like Jr.

    I celebrate Obama. I celebrate Clinton.

  • The fact remains, Dale, that there are a lot of independants who are Clinton Haters. A lot of independants who would love to see a Democrat in the office, but could never convince themselves to support a Clinton.

    There is no mass spread of Obama Haters out there like there are Clinton Haters.

    Obama will win the General Election in a big way. Hillary will give the Republicans a chance to win. Anybody who disagrees is out of touch.

  • Al @ 37…I’m glad you agree that Obamafans are divisive.

    Gore lost because he ran AWAY from the Clinton legacy.

    Hillary will win in the General because she’ll take Tennessee, Arkansas, Missouri and OK. Who give a crap about North Dakota, Alaska, and Utah.

  • Ron Paul will win the GOP nomination in November and then he will beat whomever the Democratic nominee is. Government healthcare is suicide, and the income tax and Fed must come to an end.

  • Chris G, g8grl,

    I’m disheartened by your willingness to give Michigan and Florida any consideration in this nomination process because of their obviously skewed results. There is no fair way to include them at this point. Would you be so quick to suggest such a course if your chosen candidate would not be the one benefiting?

    It is funny to see how the progressive adhesion to fair elections dissolves so quickly out the window when they see a benefit to cheating the system.

    Also, g8grl, I find you belief that Hillary will win in so many traditionally conservative states naive. Make no mistake about it, no matter who the Democratic nominee is or who the GOP nominee is, November will not be a cakewalk.

  • dadefreese said:
    >Lance:
    70% of Obama supporters are happy to support Hillary in the General.
    70% of Hillary supporters are happy to support Obama in the General.

    “I think you are a little out of touch.”

    Please read ‘Fun with Exit Polls’. It’s the first bullet. These are YESTERDAY’S results. And this isn’t 70% of Democrats will vote for Hillary, but 70% of Obama’s supporters (along with one supposes 100% of Hillary’s Supporters) who will vote for Hillary.

    Panic and Al and others are saying there is no point in nominating Hillary because THEY won’t vote for her (and independents won’t vote for her, etc.).

    This is exactly how less dismissive then the Clintons suggesting Obama be the VP and people support her for President?

    Tom has listed a whole bunch of indictments of Bill Clinton, and laid them, I suppose, at Hillary’s door. I expect that everyone of his charges can be countered, but I’ll stick to one.

    The Democrats in Congress voted for the Assault Weapons Ban, and then lost control. It was certainly NOT Bill’s fault.

    Frankly, I’m sick of this extortion racket. I can’t vote for a candidate because you won’t support the Democrats in the General Election if she gets nominated. You are all Rush Limbaughs.

    Grow up.

  • doubtful,

    Look at the turnout for those states in the primary. Hillary’s popular vote were higher (or close to) than the total turnout for the Republicans. Even if you only add half of Obama’s votes in those states (because so many Obamafans are divisive and will not commit to supporting the nominee if it’s not Him), Hillary wins!!

    BTW, I’m not saying seat the delegates from FLA or MI, I’m saying that they indicate electability far more than Utah, ND and Alaska.

  • at 1:59 pm, Al Griffin said:
    memekiller, there is no doubt that the people want Obama, and that the non-corrupt want Obama.

    But how about the hundreds of Super Delegates that the Clintons have already paid for? These SDs have already been purchased by the Evil Empire.

    Not sure Barak needs pseudo support like this. Can we really promote the progressive by vomiting out neanderthal bile?

  • One: the people have not yet “Spoken” about who their candidate is, but Clinton is definitely running out of fumes. As Mark Schmitt rightly points out here:

    Every election night, win or lose, one gets a sense from the Obama campaign of the methodical vote-by-vote construction of a new winning coalition. Sure, some of the basic demographics of his campaign remain: He does better among better-educated voters, among younger voters, among whites in Northern states, and less well among Latinos, older voters, and other constituencies of the Democratic base. But that’s normal—an insurgent candidate always starts with better-educated and younger voters, because they’re the ones likely to be looking for an alternative. It’s a picture in motion. Obama first peeled off the African-American vote, which despite his race is not insignificant—no one’s ever done it before, and there was no reason to think that working-class African-Americans would see the biracial son of a Kenyan grad student as having much in common with their experience. He started to peel off union members. On Tuesday, the results were mixed and complicated by the distinctive demographics of each state, but he started to reach further up in age—in a number of states, Clinton’s advantage didn’t begin until reaching voters over 50.

    The methodical, additive construction of the Obama coalition might fall short, in the end. The trend line of the insurgency might never quite cross that of the Democratic base. Certainly the historical odds are against it. But he’s hit all his reasonable targets so far. And he’s working it like someone who understands what it is to win elections and govern—there’s no magical moment when everyone sees your brilliance and votes for you.

    The longer the race goes, and the smaller the field on any given election day, the better chance Obama has at adding to his already-large and expanding coalition. Add to that his absurd fundraising, while Hillary is lending herself money just to stay in it, and it seems like the clock is running out on her campaign. I personally think this will be over on March 5th and the super-delegate/brokered convention point will be moot. Feel free to book mark this though and laugh in my face if I’m wrong.

    On an aside, it’s pretty absurd to call Obama the “establishment” candidate memekiller when Clinton doubles his totals in superdelegates, and is working mayoral patronage machines in downstate Cali or black establishment machines in SC for her GOTV efforts, while Obama is building his own infrastructure through a vast network of volunteers and organizers. When Clinton’s funds come from a network of traditional Dem fundraisers, while Obama is pulling in 750K individual small donors. I mean, next thing you know, the GOP will be the party of the working man, up will be down, and the sky will be red. Let’s engage in reality here. Obama is building his own “establishment” from the ground up, by creating his own infrastructure for progressive politics in places where it didn’t previously exist. That’s a testament to his enormous political talent, and the fact that some politicians within the traditional Dem establishment admire it enough to endorse him doesn’t make him the establishment candidate.

  • Look at the turnout for those states in the primary. -g8grl

    The mistake you’re making is assuming that high turnout for the Democratic primary will mean high turnout in November. Primary demographics are vastly different from general election demographics.

    One example is that women outnumber men in the Democratic primary. That is no true for the general election.

    I just wrote this in a comment on another post, but it’s apt here as well:

    I can’t stress it enough, but the Republicans excel at campaigning. So many of these states are set up to fall their way through gerrymandering and other nefarious tricks; how many dominantly minority districts will we hear about after the election with only one often malfunctioning machines and six hours waits to vote? Campaigning is what they do, and they aren’t afraid to cheat. It simply can’t be a close election or the GOP will win.

    We must approach this as if it were the most important election in history, and I find the undue optimism an obstacle to that approach.

  • Correction: Clinton did not win Missouri. Obama did. Nevertheless, I think red states do matter more than blue states because dems will win cali and ny no matter what. But states like MO, OH, & FL decide close elections. Plus, who says dems cant win moderate red states. Many Dems never win red states because often they never try and more often most dems dont appeal to those voters. Why is it a bad thing if you have someone like Obama that is drawing comparable voter totals to republicans in red states like Colorado. Also, lets not act like HC really won MI and Fl. Obama wasnt even on the ticket in MI and most supporters did not come out because they were told their vote did not count. I live in FL and I can tell you that HC won FL because of absentee votes, not live votes. Thats why hundreds of people were confused and went to vote on super tuesday and had to be sent home after they were told that FL already voted last week. The FL secretary of state did a poor job of explaining the voting/ delegates situation and the media down here told Fl voters that only Republicans were having a primary on Jan 29th. The candidates agreed not to campaign in MI and FL and HC should keep her word and the DNC should keep their word and not cave in just because the clintons thought they had the nomination in the bag. Many people in my county are independents and I can tell you right now that if HC gets the nod, most independents are going to vote for JM. Both HC and Obama are strong candidates, its just that one can put the middle in play and one doesn’t. My republican friends are hoping that HC gets the nod because they know that she will rally the republican base and because the superdelegates will pick her even if Obama has more delegates from the voters, and this will cause the Democratic party to split. HC will probably get the nod but I dont think she can win in Nov. if things continue as is. Independents will vote for JM and African Americans will stay home, both of which the dems need to win. Remember, Bush won by getting the middle; the dems cant win without the middle and without the support all of their base.

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