Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff calls homosexuality ‘immoral’

I continue to wait patiently for a rational explanation as to why the government denies gays the right to serve in the military. To his enormous credit, Gen. Peter Pace, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, put aside the nonsense and identified the actual reason for the unjustified discrimination.

“I do not believe the United States is well served by a policy that says it is OK to be immoral in any way,” Pace told the [Chicago Tribune] in a wide-ranging interview.

Pace, a native of Brooklyn, N.Y., and a 1967 graduate of the U.S. Naval Academy, said he based his views on his upbringing.

He said he supports the Pentagon’s “don’t ask, don’t tell policy” in which gay men and women are allowed in the military as long as they keep their sexual orientation private. The policy, signed into law by President Clinton in 1994, prohibits commanders from asking about a person’s sexual orientation.

“I believe homosexual acts between two individuals are immoral and that we should not condone immoral acts,” Pace said.

The benefit of comments like these is the fact that Pace ignored the usual foolishness about the alleged effect gays have on troop morale and/or military readiness. Everyone recognizes these excuses as trumped up rationalizations. Pace made it plain: gays can’t volunteer to serve their country because they’re bad people.

This is enormously helpful, because it clarifies the debate. Supporters of “Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell” endorse bigotry. Protecting the country, honoring military service, fulfilling a sense of duty to one’s country — none of that matters to Pace and those who share his perspective. According to this twisted worldview, gays are “immoral.” As such, the United States military, which is fighting for “freedom” overseas, is justified in treating gays as second-class citizens.

Pace makes this simple: if you hate gays, you support DADT. If you’re a rational person more interested in national security than a moronic culture war, you don’t support DADT.

After hearing Pace’s comments, and TP has an audio clip if you wanted to listen to them, I thought about Bleu Copas, a decorated sergeant and Arabic language specialist who was thrown out of the military last summer. If Pace had a minute, he may want to chat with him.

Copas joined the Army after the 9/11 attacks out of a sense of duty, and was responsible for helping translate intercepted messages from possible terrorists. The Army welcomed him, trained him, and utilized his skills to protect Americans — and then threw him out of the military after learning (from an anonymous tip) he’s gay.

A few months later, The Daily Show’s Jason Jones sat down with Paul Cameron, one of the nation’s leading anti-gay activists, who said, “I think the country, on the aggregate, is safer without Bleu in the military.”

Asked why, Cameron explained, “Guys don’t want to think about other guys, other fellas, ogling them in the shower or whatever.” Jones responded, “I know I’d rather die in a terrorist attack than suffer through an uncomfortable shower with a gay.” Cameron grudgingly responded, “Yes.”

In contrast, Cameron almost appears sophisticated when compared to Pace’s comments. Pace isn’t even concerned about showers; he simply believes gays are inherently bad. It doesn’t matter what Copas and other gay soldiers do, or how much they protect us, or how honorably they serve. Pace doesn’t like them, so therefore, they don’t deserve to wear a uniform.

Better yet, Pace believes the policy of the United States government should reflect his bigotry. What’s more, it does.

Put it a time-capsule, folks. Future generations won’t believe we were this dumb.

When you’re prosecuting a war built on fabrications and manipulated intelligence, and going along with a plan to keep it going, I don’t think you are qualified to pass judgment on what is and is not moral.

  • I’m quite surprised Pace came out and said he considers homosexuals “immoral” and therefore has no place in the American military. Didn’t the military just lower it’s requirements to allow people with criminal records to join the military? Is there any other “moral requirements” to serve in the military?

  • In Jesusland, questions of sexual morality trump all. (Or at least they do if you are a Democrat.) And unapologetic bigotry is right beneath the surface.

    While this example of ignorance and bigotry is appalling in itself, it’s really just a symptom of the underlying irrationality and tribalism of the authoritarian right. If the U.S. is to survive as a post-enlightenment secular democracy, these kinds of people can’t be in power.

    Future generations won’t believe we were this dumb.

    Or they may see this as a milestone in the destruction of the american experiment.

  • Sounds like the policy is more “Don’t ask, don’t get told on.” Pace’s opinion seems crazy to us, but it is the opinion of probably 90 per cent of the world’s billions. And 99% of the worlds religionists. We need a global C.O.Y.O.T.E. to call off their old tired ethics.

  • Couldn’t this policy of “immorality” come back and bite them? What if there was a draft… I think there would be quite a number of declared homosexuals. That’s one way to avoid a draft.

  • What Anne said.

    How many innocent deaths has this creep been responsible for now? And he wants to lecture us on morality?

  • Along with Racerx…
    So the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff thinks homosexuality is immoral, let’s just agree with him for argument. Is he really going to sit there and act like a man in his position hasn’t committed more immoralities on the world then a homosexual.

    He has probably committed more immoral acts then all the homosexuals on the planet combined. He decided who lives and who dies, and when this occurs, yet his moral compass is so sharp he gets to publicly make accusations on what one does in their own privacy, please.

    And last but not least, seems like I have seen numerous pictures of our own troops acting ‘immoral’ with prisoners. Seems like we can act homosexual if it makes the enemy uncomfortable all we want, just so that it’s only purpose is to demoralize the enemy.

    Pace, SHFU and get into the 21st century.

    Note to homosexual service men/women who have been relived of your duty. Thanks for your service and you didn’t want to work for those bigots anyways.

  • I wouldn’t call General Pace a “creep,” but I’d definitely call him a “fossil.”

  • “Couldn’t this policy of “immorality” come back and bite them? What if there was a draft… I think there would be quite a number of declared homosexuals. That’s one way to avoid a draft.

    Comment by Kathleen — 3/13/2007 @ 10:18 am ”

    I’m old enough to remember the bumper sticker from the 1960’s during the height of the Vietnam war….

    “Avoid the draft – wear pink underwear”

  • I sure wish the General could weigh in on the morality of the treatment our female troops in Iraq are experiencing at the hands of some of their male comrades:

    http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2007/03/07/women_in_military/

    Amazing that the General has time to cast aspersions on the moral character of homosexuals while the things detailed in the story above are going on. But that’s the military for you, I guess.

  • Too much is made, I think, of the parallels among movements for equality by blacks, women and gays. The roots and consquences of prejudice differ widely from group to group.

    But this fact does stand out: By executive order, Harry Truman integrated the races in our military(for which he took enormous heat), but even before that blacks, though segregated, were still allowed to serve. To the troglodytes who run the most powerful military force in the world, gays are simply anathema.

    Aside from looking somewhat Rudolf Frimly in his formal dress, Pace is the perfect symbol of America: head up his butt, still inhaling deeply the prejudices he learned at his parents’ knees, certain that there is no reality beyond his own parochially warped ignorance and, unfortunately, one of the most powerful people in America.

    I’m curious: will the Congressional Democrats… well, never mind.

  • Pace is but one of many in military leadership with such an attitude. Generals and admirals with a more “progressive” or sensible attitude don’t make it past their second star. Three and four star generals or admirals are politicians in uniform.

  • If we apply the logical conclusion of Pace’s “malignancy of morality,” we could exempt every subgroup of human society that does not fit each and every one of Pace’s “ideological ideals” from military service. With that, the only people who would be fit to fight this trumped-up war would be…

    *drumroll, if you please*

    Republicans.

    Further, we could also relabel this elitist, xenophobic, military concoction as the “Republican Guard.”

    It’s scary when I compare the Bushian model of Iran to the Orwellian model of Animal Farm. The similarities are too common to be merely coincidental….

  • Peterface Pace to other nations with soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistan: SINNERS!

    I wonder if Pace has the balls to sit down with his peers from UK, Australia etc, etc, etc. and tell them they all condone immorality. The US is increasingly alone in this attitude. And in Iraq and Afghanistan. I wonder how Dickhead has the brain power to worry about a possible correlation?

    I don’t think there is one (but I can dream). However, I can’t imagine being duped into a never-ending war combined with the trogdolyte ‘tude helps things. But if the British equivalent of Pace wanted to say “We’re leaving Iraq and by the way your turnip eating approach to gays in the military makes me puke!” that would make MY day.

    I’m old enough to remember the bumper sticker from the 1960’s during the height of the Vietnam war

    “And can you imagine if two people, just two people walked in, sang a bar of Alice’s Restaurant and walked out?”

    Obligatory A. Guthrie quote. Done.

  • So, unlike admitted homosexuals in the military, this guy has the right to become the next Commander in Chief that Gen. Pace would report to:

    Newt Gingrich to Pat Dobson, Focus on the Family, “There are times that I have fallen short of my own standards. There’s certainly times when I’ve fallen short of God’s standards.”

    Here are just a few of these “fallen times” when Newt, perhaps, didn’t focus as much as he should have on his family – ah, the memories of “youthful” indiscretions:

    The Early 70s – “We would have won (congressional election) in 1974 if we could have kept him out of the office and screwing her (a young campaign staffer) on the desk.” – Dot Crews, Gingrich Campaign Scheduler at the time. Newt was married to first wife, Jackie Battley, at the time.

    The Mid 70s – “We had oral sex. He prefers that modus operandi because then he can say, ‘I never slept with her.” – Anne Manning (who was also married). Again, Newt was married to Jackie at the time. They had two young girls. Great male role model for them I say. Hey, at least Newt and Jackie weren’t a couple of homos!

    1980 – Famous incident where Newt visited Jackie at the hospital to discuss the terms of his divorce with her while she was recovering from uterine cancer surgery. Newt later explained why he divorced her, “She wasn’t pretty enough to be the wife of the future President of the United States.” Nice. After the divorce, Newt refused to pay alimony or child support and the First Baptist Church in his hometown had to take up a collection to help Jackie and her abandoned family.

    More in The Early 80s – Six months after dumping Jackie, Newt married Marianne Ginther, who he had been having an affair with (Oh, I guess that sorta also covers the missing “The Late 70s”).

    The Early 90s – Newt began his longtime affair with Callista Bisek, a House Clerk 23 years younger than him. Of course, this means he was having an extramarital affair all the while he was strongly condemning the morals of Bill Clinton over the Lewinsky affair. However, this was consistent with Newt’s Hypocritic Code – for example, much earlier in his career, after leading the charge against Democratic House members involved in the 1992 Banking Scandal, it came out later that Newt had bounced 22 checks himself. Oopsie, I guess.

    1999 – In what appears to be another of his strange predilections, Newt informed Marianne that he was divorcing her while she was in the hospital recovering from a ruptured appendix.

    2001 – Newt marries and makes “an honest woman” of Callista. Gosh, that was quick.

    Since I am mainly concentrating on Gingrich’s adulteries and hypocrisies, I will just mention in passing that Newt is the only member of the House of Representatives to ever be censured and fined by the House Ethics Panel (and it was chaired by his fellow Republicans – how sleazy do you have to be to accomplish THAT?).

    General Pace, your comments on whether Newt is morally fit to be president?

  • Although it may seem to have nothing to do with the Attorney-firing scandal, the mere fact that Pace was appointed chairman of the jcs is just the latest instance of the bush admin’s policy of appointing ideological loyalists to high office. The most important qualification is that they follow the party’s rightist line. I hope they all follow the party line right off a cliff.

  • Yeah, never saw anything “immoral” while I was in the Army.

    Except premarital sex, there was a lot of that.

    And some guys I knew had girlfriends who were only 16, and were committing statutory rape.

    And excessive alcohol comsumption. That was a spectator sport.

    Oh, and adultery, especially by married guys when we were deployed.

    And swearing. Take away using the Lord’s Name in vain, and you’d get rid of 90% of the Army’s vocabulary.

    Not to mention violating that whole “Thou shalt not kill” thing.

    Outside of these minor instances, the military is as pure as the driven snow.

  • 1980 – Famous incident where Newt visited Jackie at the hospital to discuss the terms of his divorce with her while she was recovering from uterine cancer surgery. Newt later explained why he divorced her, “She wasn’t pretty enough to be the wife of the future President of the United States.” Nice. After the divorce, Newt refused to pay alimony or child support and the First Baptist Church in his hometown had to take up a collection to help Jackie and her abandoned family.

    The full quote is “she’s not pretty enough to be First Lady, and besides, she’s too old.”

    Newt’s first wife was his high school teacher (one has to wonder how that happened – perhaps this was a “Mary LeTorneau” event, or one of those things that leads to big scandals when exposed nowadays). Marrying her and having a child rapidly thereafter was how Newtie managed to dodge the draft.

    2Manchu is entirely right about the level of “immorality” in the armed forces. Officers I knew of used to regularly hit on the wives of their fellow officers who were off on deployments (so you cuckold a guy you may be fighting with later).The level of drunkenness was (and probably is) amazing. The Admiral I worked for couldn’t be trusted to make a decision past about 1700 (5pm for you civilians) because he was already so drunk (which is how the decisions around the Tonkin Gulf “Incident” were made, with the Admiral in charge too drunk to understand what was happening – I was in the room and can confirm that – and the decisions being made in his name by the chief of staff).

    Actually, Pace has an excuse. He’s a Marine. There’s an old saying: “you can always tell a Marine, you just can’t tell him very much.” Like most Marines, he was probably dropped on his head or thrown against the wall a few times too many as a baby.

  • When I was in grad school back in the latter half of the ’60s I shared an office with another NIMH fellow. His father-in-law was commander of the US forces in the Pacific. “The General” seriously believed that aliens had landed on earth and were busy taking over the bodies of major government figures.

    I have often wondered how widespread such insanity might be in the upper ranks of an establishment whose business is ultimately gruesome but whose ideas and functioning are largely removed from public scrutiny and whose prowess is only reality-tested once every generation or so.

    I would say Peter Pace confirms my worst fears. ‘Buck’ Turgidson made more sense. Hell, Jack D. Ripper made more sense.

  • tAiO was thinking about the same reference that came to mind for me. In the song Alice’s Restaurant, Arlo spins the tale of being rejected by the army as one of its trained killers because he had the immoral record of being convicted of littering once. Of course that the military is lowering its standards regarding letting people with criminal records into the armed forces in increasing numbers doesn’t seem to bother him at all.

    The armed forces have plenty of immorality going on their ranks from killing innocent civilians to rape to theft to embezzlement to torture and prisoner abuse, and to my knowledge most if not all these abuses were committed by heterosexuals. Straight folks have no more of a lock on moral behavior than any other.

    A great quote from Pace’s remarks is, “As an individual, I would not want (acceptance of gay behavior) to be our policy, just like I would not want it to be our policy that if we were to find out that so-and-so was sleeping with somebody else’s wife, that we would just look the other way, which we do not. We prosecute that kind of immoral behavior.”

    So Newt, McCain and Giuliani had better watch out because adulterers are immoral too and therefore you guys are the equavelent of gays. That puts a new spin on things.

  • If the gays are so immoral, I’d think the Right should WANT them in the military. What with the death rates and all. I mean, heck, insisting the gay enlist may be a quick way of getting rid of them.

  • Good thing for Pace that republican’s avoided/avoid service like the plague or his beloved military might have been/be invested with immoral perpetrators.

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