Clash of the Democratic Titans (Part III?)

I’ve heard some talk from the punditocracy that the Democratic presidential candidates have been surprisingly nice to one another so far. Kucinich and Gravel have lashed out at the top tier with angry outbursts, which tend to be ignored, but the more competitive candidates have been getting along fairly well.

I think that initial let’s-all-be-pleasant phase of the primary race is ending. The Clinton-Obama post-debate dust-up, in this sense, is more than just an interesting squabble among the top two candidates; it’s also a turning point. I think the gloves just came off.

I won’t rehash the whole affair — if you’re just joining us, I explained the clash in some detail on Tuesday — but as of last night, it’s still going strong. Clinton started the sparring calling Obama’s diplomacy answer from the debate “irresponsible and frankly naive.” Obama hit back, calling Clinton’s votes on Iraq policy even more “irresponsible and frankly naive.” Then some Clinton aides had a few pointed comments for Obama in various press interviews, prompting Obama to give NBC his sharpest assessment to date last night.

“I think what is irresponsible and naive is to have authorized a war without asking how we were going to get out — and you know I think Senator Clinton hasn’t fully answered that issue.

“The general principle that I was laying out is that we should not be afraid as America to meet with anybody. Now, they may not like what we want to hear — so if I’m talking to the President of Iran, I’m going to inform him that Israel is our stalwart ally, and we are going to do what’s necessary to protect them — that we will not accept a nuclear bomb in Iran, but that doesn’t mean we can’t say that face to face. And obviously, the diplomatic state work has to be done ahead of time. The notion that I was somehow going to be inviting them over for tea next week without having initial envoys meet is ridiculous.

“But the general principle is one that I think Senator Clinton is wrong on — and that is if we are laying out preconditions that prevents us from speaking frankly to these folks, then we are continuing with Bush-Cheney policies, and I am not interested in continuing that.”

Obama went on to compare Clinton’s approach to Bush/Cheney a couple of more times, concluding that he wants to focus on the U.S. reducing ongoing threats. “To fail to do that is the same conventional Washington thinking that led many including Senator Clinton to go ahead with the war without having asked adequate questions.”

Like Greg, I think Obama’s comparison between Clinton’s debate answer and Bush administration policy is excessive — the Obama and Clinton answers really weren’t that different — but his comments generally suggest that the level of animosity between the two campaigns is high, and it probably is going to get worse before it gets better.

Now, a presidential campaign isn’t a game of bean-bags, and after the age of 10, “she started it” no longer sounds compelling, but I think it’s worth noting that this is arguably the third major dust-up between Clinton and Obama — and in each instance, the Clinton campaign instigated the confrontation.

* Way back in February, David Geffen, an Obama supporter, had a few intemperate things to say about Hillary Clinton. The Clinton campaign fired back by criticizing Obama, questioning his sincerity about “changing the tone,” and insisting that Obama should return Geffen’s campaign contributions. Obama responded, Clinton responded to the response, and the whole thing was kind of ugly.

* In April, at the first debate, Obama was asked how he’d respond to a terrorist attack. He said he’d deal with emergency responders first, then gathering intelligence and communicating with our allies, and then finally moving ahead with a military response. Clinton’s campaign suggested Obama’s response reflected a degree of weakness, and pushed the story pretty hard with reporters. Obama didn’t fight back much, other than to defend his approach.

* And now, in July, the two are in full argument mode about who is more naive than the other.

It’s tempting to think Edwards would benefit from a Clinton/Obama fight, but there’s no evidence of that so far. The trend I’m seeing, though, is that Clinton, despite being the frontrunner, seems anxious to take her top competitor down as quickly as possible. It’s a risky strategy — Obama apparently isn’t backing down from a fight. The more Clinton swings, the more Obama swings back.

Who’s winning this fight? Frankly, I have no idea. What do you think?

As I argued yesterday, at least so far the evidence suggests that when Clinton and Obama spar, the “winner” is. . . Clinton and Obama.

Media – including CBR – describes it in terms like “clash of the titans,” the “two frontrunners taking the gloves off” etc. I completely agree with Steve that substantively there was little difference between the CLinton and Obama answers at the debate – Obama’s was more stylistic and lyrical; Clinton’s was more wonky and detailed. But since the two started spinning this as a flashpoint between their campaigns, how much have you seen on the news about Edwards, Richardson, Biden or Dodd?

For every news cycle that Clinton and Obama are the sole news, the losers of the Clinton-Obama fight are all of the other candidates.

Clinton and Obama both have an interest in winnowing the large field sooner rather than later. (There are some strategic reasons they may not want one-on-one just yet, but that is for another post). I don’t think this fight is contrived, but it remains my assessment that they both win so long as the coverage is not one-sided against either of them at this point, and the coverage is painting this as a two-person race.

  • Clinton has a vested interest in taking down the nearest frontrunner because she perceives her front runner position as inherently shaky. How else can it not be shaky because 60 percent of all Democrats want anyone but her, and 50 percent or more of the general population don’t want her.
    She needs to take out Obama now so as to consolidate her frontrunner position with the Democratic nomination so as to start playing to the center and the nation at large and she thinks one year is enough time to change enough minds.

  • Every time there is a dust up, Obama seems to go back to Hillary’s war vote. It’s an important issue, but it’s going to get used up real fast. That’s one of HIllary’s strengths. Everyone has thrown everything at her so many times that she is getting to be Teflon. At least she’s earned her Teflon status, unlike “likeable” Ronnie and “likeable” George.

  • Nominating either one is to surrender ALL of the Red States before starting and ALL of the Red States will elect the president next year.

    America is not going to elect a woman or a black to the presidency in ’08. The Dems are just working on a new way to lose.

  • I think Katrina van der Heuval had some interesting comments which support the idea that Obama is not necessarily so over the top in linking Clinton to Bush — or at least to Clinton.

    She writes

    Her husband’s administration generally followed Hillary’s approach; during his two terms President Clinton did not meet with Fidel Castro or with Hugo Chavez or with the leaders of Iran, Syria, and North Korea –while generally pursuing a policy of trying to isolate these countries. But what did the Clinton approach actually accomplish? The respective regimes of Castro in Cuba and Chavez in Venezuela have only grown stronger, and more influential in Latin America. Although Syria was forced to withdraw its military forces from Lebanon last year, the regime of Bashar Assad is as firmly entrenched in power as was his father’s. And in spite of the odious politics and qualities of Ahmadinejad, Iran carries more weight in the Middle East than it did doing the early 1990s while American power and standing has declined considerably.

    Indeed, both Clinton and Bush may have missed a historic opportunity to open a new chapter with Iran when reformer Mohamed Khatemi was elected in 1997. Had President Clinton taken the bold step Obama suggested and had met without precondition with President Khatemi in 1998 or ’99 instead of pursuing sanctions, might not the democratic reformers be in power in Iran? Might we not have a healthy and growing trading relationship with an economically reformed Iran? Might Iran have capped its nuclear program and cooperated with us in managing regional relations including the peaceful downfall of Saddam Hussein? We do not know because the foreign policy sophisticates thought it was too politically risky for President Clinton to make such a bold move.

  • I think Katrina Vanden Heuvel had some interesting comments which support the idea that Obama is not necessarily so over the top in linking Clinton to Bush — or at least to Clinton.

    She writes

    Her husband’s administration generally followed Hillary’s approach; during his two terms President Clinton did not meet with Fidel Castro or with Hugo Chavez or with the leaders of Iran, Syria, and North Korea –while generally pursuing a policy of trying to isolate these countries. But what did the Clinton approach actually accomplish? The respective regimes of Castro in Cuba and Chavez in Venezuela have only grown stronger, and more influential in Latin America. Although Syria was forced to withdraw its military forces from Lebanon last year, the regime of Bashar Assad is as firmly entrenched in power as was his father’s. And in spite of the odious politics and qualities of Ahmadinejad, Iran carries more weight in the Middle East than it did doing the early 1990s while American power and standing has declined considerably.

    Indeed, both Clinton and Bush may have missed a historic opportunity to open a new chapter with Iran when reformer Mohamed Khatemi was elected in 1997. Had President Clinton taken the bold step Obama suggested and had met without precondition with President Khatemi in 1998 or ’99 instead of pursuing sanctions, might not the democratic reformers be in power in Iran? Might we not have a healthy and growing trading relationship with an economically reformed Iran? Might Iran have capped its nuclear program and cooperated with us in managing regional relations including the peaceful downfall of Saddam Hussein? We do not know because the foreign policy sophisticates thought it was too politically risky for President Clinton to make such a bold move.

  • I keep asking myself if any of the Democrats would turn things around as President. I catch myself assuming that they will because they’re not Republicans but in truth it’s more assumption than anything they’ve said. I also wonder if anyone can turn things around seeing as how Bush has mired us in an unwinnable war and spent all of the money for years to come.

  • Dale #3

    Hillary’s war vote is why I, and a number of my Dem friends, will not vote for her under any circumstances.

    I have been elected to four terms in a small-time local Democratic office. I am a Core Democrat. What does this say about the center independents?

  • Notice that Obama said “diplomatic state work” instead of “diplomatic spade work. I wonder why. And why did Albright say it the other way? Things that make you go hmmmm.

  • Hillary’s war vote is why I, and a number of my Dem friends, will not vote for her under any circumstances.

    Bullshit. Who are you going to vote for? Romney?

  • Hillary’s political calculations in voting for the war in Iraq without reading that NIE report and without asking hard questions should disqualify her from national office, period.

    And, in case you haven’t noticed, all of the charming qualities that make Bush the “Decider” are also found in Hillary — secretive, controlling, and stubborn.

    Time for a change.

  • The underlying dynamics don’t bode well for detente between the 2. Hillary has to prove that as a woman she’s ‘tough enough’, while Obama as a relative newcomer has to prove he’s ‘experienced enough’.
    The only thing countering this dynamic is some fuzzy notion of ‘Can’t we all just get along?’
    If it escalates to out and out name calling, Edwards will come out the winner. If it just simmers along, I don’t expect much to change.

  • Nominating either one is to surrender ALL of the Red States before starting and ALL of the Red States will elect the president next year.

    America is not going to elect a woman or a black to the presidency in ‘08. The Dems are just working on a new way to lose.

    Comment by Wahoo

    Yeah, I forgot how well the Kerry-Edwards ticket did in the Red State last time.

    Here’s the scenario I see. Anti-Hillary-ites will swallow hard and vote Democratic as usual (except for Wahoo and his friends). Dems will win Ohio and Florida and win bigtime without “Red States.”

    Obama wins nomination or is on ticket as VP, and gets huge turnout of black voters in Red States actually making them competitive and winning a few.

    I can’t see Democrats boycotting the election in big numbers because Hillary or Obama is the nominee. How are they not typical Dems policy-wise. Hillary is a good candidate who will draw people back once they see her on TV commercials or debating whatever loser the Republicans set up.

    Others can sit this one out and contemplate their Dem dream ticket (Edwards or some other rich white guy), while the rest of us get to be a part of one of the shining events in American History.

  • Obama has thrown mud on himself by comparing “Clinton’s approach to Bush/Cheney a couple of more times.” Regards of her AUF Iraq vote, there’s no way Hillary Clinton and George W. Bush are “peas in a pod”; Obama’s exaggeration hurts him.

    Boxing translation: She got in a square hit and Obama responds with a couple of kidney punches. Clinton ahead on points.

  • Of course, Hillary and George are not “peas in a pod.” One is left and the other is right.

    But in essence, indistinguishable otherwise.

    Time for a change.

  • count me in with Wahoo, it’s time for a change & Hill’s not it. I always figured we’d have a black president before a woman. Not that it matter’s, but I can’t vote for Clinton. I live in Mass, so my vote really only counts in the primary. I might vote repub just to vote against Mitt the zit. I voted against Bush 3 times last time (didn’t do much good though). I can sit home on election day and it won’t matter, the Dem wins.

  • I have to say how glad I am that Obama is finally firing back at Hillary and I think he’s getting the better of this exchange right now. Now, if he can add some more specifics and keep up the attacks on policy and not let them get to the level of the personal (because you know Wolfson and the Hillary Mafia won’t be able to resist sinking there), he’s gonna start scoring. I’m still torn between Obama and Edwards personally, but I could live with just about any of the Democratic nominees (who aren’t insane) except for Hillary, not just because I dislike her but because she would be the easiest for the Republicans to beat. I have no problem with a woman as president, just that woman.

  • “Obama has thrown mud on himself by comparing “Clinton’s approach to Bush/Cheney a couple of more times.” Regards of her AUF Iraq vote, there’s no way Hillary Clinton and George W. Bush are “peas in a pod”; Obama’s exaggeration hurts him.

    Boxing translation: She got in a square hit and Obama responds with a couple of kidney punches. Clinton ahead on points.”

    I beg to differ. I agree that the initial answers weren’t all that different, except in style and detail, but I thought Hillary came off as more experienced by adding the necessary caveats. She should have left it there.

    Her attacks since then seem petty and strained, and Obama’s rejoinder is, to me, very effective. In essence, it’s “if you’re so smart, why did you trust Bush, and vote for the AUMF?” I think this will always be a weak point for her.

    Plus, last but not least, Obama comes off as a Democrat who won’t necessarily start one of these fights, but isn’t afraid to strike back — hard — when he’s attacked. And that’s a good thing, in my eyes.

  • Those of you who would sit home rather than vote Democrat if Hillary is the nominee would do well to examine your own motivations. Does that mean you wouldn’t vote for Bill if he were up again?

    I can’t stand poverty-primp (mispelled by design) Edwards and his 20,000 square foot house, but if he got the nomination, I would enthusiastically put my distaste aside (including his vote on the war) and vote for the him. He’d do a great job as president, no doubt about it.

    So would Hillary or Barack. In the immortal words of the right wing in 2000, “Get over it.” – IT being your your irrational “Won’t Vote Hillary Under Any Circumstances” nonsense.

  • I’ve never been a fan of Hillary and would be really disappointed if she won the Dem nomination. Yes I am an outsider, but I have been an avid observer of American politics for 30+ years.

    I was taught to judge a person by their actions, the people they call friends and by who they are. Of all the candidates, I find Hillary the most disappointing.

    Why? There has always been something about her that bothers me and I think I’ve figured out why. She’s not a genuine person and lacks heart. WTF? This is not a “I can have a beer with George” nonsense.

    I realize that at the national level, there is a certain amount of cynicism and political calculus going on (and I know that “Mr Smiths” are few and far between.) However, what separates her from the others is she has never done anything by doing what is right/best even when unpopular. At least for me, Lack lof heart is more to do with her NOT doing the right thing regardless of the consequences.

    Even her antiwar stance feels unreal considering her war vote and her utter and total scilence during John Murtha’s challenge or Russ Feingold’s anti war stances. Her stance only intensified after Iraq got worse and worse and more Americans realized that it was a mess. They don’t call her the “Triangulator” for nothing.

    And her courting of Rupert Murdoch bothers me. Rupert can donate to whoever he wants, but if my family and I were the focus of intense personal and somewhat baseless attacks by his newsies, I’d rather shove his money down his throat than take it.

    In my own observations, Hillary seems more focused on obtaining power than doing something useful with it.

    Her campaign team seems too Rovian for my taste as well.

    However, like W before her, she is the “establishment” candidate.

    If Hillary gets elected, I suspect I won’t see much of a change in US foreign policy.

  • Won’t Vote Hillary Under Any Circumstances. My motivation is not having her as president. If that’s nonsence, sign me up.

  • Does anyone seriously think Clinton wouldn’t be using her war vote as an issue if she had had the brains to vote against the war?

    Anyone?

    I think Obama’s point that he opposed the war and Clinton supported it is only going to fade if the war goes away or gets significantly better. And that ain’t gonna happen before the primaries are over. In my neck of the woods, Democratic voters want to punish not only the people who planned the war, they want to punish the people who enabled it, and Hillary Clinton spoke long and loud for the war before the vote. Those speeches are not going to be fun for her to listen to, but every Democratic voter needs to listen to them.

    By the fall of 2002, we all knew Bush was a devious, despicable liar. Those of us with access to the NIE who didn’t even bother to read it, and then advocated giving Bush a blank check to attack Iraq (and everyone else, he says now) need to be punished severely, especially if they accept no blame for their stupidity.

    IMHO Hillary went along with the Biggest Clusterfuck Ever because a) she was stupid enough to think it would be an easy win, or b) She was afraid of AIPAC, which was pushing hard for the war.

    If she is a stupid person, that’s enough to disqualify her, and if she sold us out to AIPAC, again she’s not my first choice. That of course doesn’t mean that Obama or anyone else won’t sell us out to AIPAC, but at least he had the sense to not trust Bush, and if we’re going with the boxing analogy the fact that Clinton trusted Bush is a huge black eye and several teeth knocked out. I would add that it was self inflicted, and Obama isn’t the one who delivered the blow.

  • I share most of Former Dan’s sentiments. Although Hillary isn’t my favorite, I like her just as much (if not better in some ways) then Bill the Triangulator.

    I know that I’ve warmed up to her a lot since I’ve seen her on TV more. She is whipsaw smart and brothers and sisters, doesn’t THAT warm your cockles and doodles a bit after the last 6+ years?

    I disagree in that I believe she would change some aspects of foreign policy – mainly our military presence in the Middle East (in the form it is now – there would always be hidden agendas like for every president since the 1940s).

    On social issues, she would be as big a champion of the “left-behinds-in-the-60s-sense” as anyone ever could be. Well second to Edwards on “women’s issues” if you believe Elizabeth. Sorry about the Edwards snark. I can’t help myself.

    That said, again, I would vote happily for any of the Dems running right now.

  • Former Dan, I assume that when you say Hillary has never done anything right at a consequence to her, you are either forgetting or simply writing off her early professional years where, despite having the credentials to take a very high-paying law firm job she instead was in-house at Childrens Defense Fund?

    She did low-paying, very liberal public interest work at a time when no one knew who she (or her husband) was, when it didn’t get her anywhere or any good will, when no one was watching.

    Indeed it will likely cost her in the general election because some of her writings in that job were well left of the mainstream – even then, but particularly now.

    I agree Team Clinton is rather Rovian. And while that is troubling on some levels, it is pretty well fact that a “Rovian” campaign team presents our best chance to win. Reagan and Bush the Elder had Rovian elements (Lee Atwater, anyone?) and they kicked our asses until Bill Clinton came along — with the same Rovian team Hillary has. Put differently, since Carter’s one-term surprise win which is now 30 years old, only “Rovian” campaign teams have won anything.

  • Hank (#10): we aren’t going to vote for President if Hillary the Loser is the candidate. We’re going to put our efforts into getting a 65-vote Democratic Senate and a veto-proof House, so we can counter President Frederick of Hollywood, who will beat her. Nominating another goddamned Clinton is to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory. Obama is right about her policies and votes, and David Geffen was right about the fact that the two of them never met a lie they couldn’t let slip from their mouths like butter. I voted for her husband in 1992 because I had no choice, and did so with a clothespin on my nose after watching that spinmeistering con artist in action during the campaign. I didn’t vote for him in 1996, and I’m not voting for his wife in 2008.

    The fact is that 60% of Democrats want Anyone But Hillary for the candidate and the majority of the country wants Anybody But Hillary for President. If her ego wasn’t so colossal, she’d be happy becoming the Lioness of the Senate and assuming Ted Kennedy’s mantle there. But all the Professional Losers we have running the party are conned by her and she believes if she can con them she can con everyone.

  • Racerx, I’m not sure your analysis will hold up so well in Iowa. Iowa is more than plenty anti-war, having suffered a disproportionate number of National Guard casualties, which would suggest you are correct.

    But there are two big mitigating factors: (1) Senator Harkin, dean of the Iowa Dems and someone considered well left-of-center among the Senate, also voted Yes on the 2002 AUMF and also claimed he was misled by someone a lot of us already knew could not be trusted. Harkin remains endlessly supported by Iowa Dems; it would be a little dissonant to hold that vote against Clinton but not Harkin (the fact that Rep. Boswell, at the time the only D in the Iowa House delegation, also voted yes helps, too); (2) Sen. John Edwards, surprise darling of the 2004 Iowa Caucuses and still one of the best organized, most liked candidates here, also voted Yes on the 2002 AUMF.

    Logical as your analysis is, these things provide Hillary with a lot of political cover, and would provide “protest voters” a lot of cognitive dissonance to overcome. I dont think the Iraq vote would be enough to single-handedly sink her chances in Iowa.

  • Zeitgeist,

    True, I didn’t know that. My answer is based on her actions in the past eight or so years which I think is important as it is closer to what she currently thinks.

    I realize that everyone needs a “machine” of sorts, but you gotta ask where is her money coming from? Her team comes mainly from Big Pharma and Health Insurance Industry lobbyists. She also attracts a huge amount of money from both (as mentioned in Sicko) as well as donations from a lot of finance and Wall Street types.

    I am not naive to think that a presidential campaign is run on hope and good wishes, but it makes me wonder about how she really wants to change things as it is more than likely there needs to be a huge amount of reform required for the healthcare and finance industries.

    From Open Secrets
    1 Lawyers/Law Firms
    2 Retired
    3 Securities & Investment
    4 Real Estate
    5 TV/Movies/Music
    6 Business Services
    7 Health Professionals
    8 Education
    9 Misc Finance
    10 Printing & Publishing

    To say one nice thing about her, at least she’s not beholden to oil, power and defense.

  • Who’s winning this fight? Frankly, I have no idea. What do you think?

    When I look at who is reaching people and inspiring them to donate money and become invested, I clearly think Obama.

    In fact, I think he’s leading overall, but our flawed polling system isn’t reaching the majority of the people he inspires. Maybe they’ve got two jobs or no phone, who knows.

    I know certain Clinton fanboys will foam at the mouth, but I think Clinton’s lead in the polls is pure fantasy.

    This is another fine example of Clinton attacking Obama and him responding like a refined statesman. Which of these two do you want talking to foreign leaders? The one that will try to get the digs in the next day, or the one that rebuts with dignity?

    Face it, she’s a neocon. I’m with those that won’t vote for she who thinks the crown is hers.

  • To all the right wing enablers who will allegedly sit out the 2008 presidential election rather than vote for Hillary, I say – don’t let the saloon door hit you in the elephant on your way out the door.

    Oh, and remember me when you grudgingly drink a toast to the first woman president in our storied history.

  • I think I decided for myself a few months ago that Obama was the best candidate, and since then he’s been at least holding his own with Clinton, if not passing her. If this was the “may the best man win” contest I had hoped for, Obama would win it. Maybe Clinton realizes that. If that’s the case, it’s dirty and slimy.

    Clinton is fully capable of defending herself, apologizing for giving the president the benefit of the doubt when most of the country was doing the same, and campaigning on her strengths, without playing a dirty campaign against other candidates. That she is playing dirty, for her especially, is self-destructive, because it plays into all kinds of right-wing memes about her that she’ll never shake, only reinforce.

  • To all the right wing enablers who will allegedly sit out the 2008 presidential election rather than vote for Hillary, I say – don’t let the saloon door hit you in the elephant on your way out the door. -colonpowwow

    Your disdain for democracy is nauseating.

  • I’m starting to think that the reason I am feeling lukewarm about both Clinton and Obama is that they are more similar than they are different. We all know about Hillary’s penchant for triangulating, but I think Obama has the same tendencies, albeit packaged in a little more palatable way; he lacks the stridency she has that sets my teeth on edge, but his affinity for consensus reveals him to be someone who may aim for the middle in the mistaken belief that middle ground is always the best of both worlds, when often it really is not.

    Hillary has that hard edge, which I think is more just her persona; Obama seems blurry to me, not quite formed – and that I think is what Hillary picks up on when she calls some of his views naïve. And yet, her hard edge and his blurry one are really the same thing underneath – the need to be all things to all people, which usually means selling out those who are hard-line Democrats and liberals – who are just as hungry for representation and are tired of being told that the crumbs being thrown in their direction should be enough to get their votes.

    If Hillary is the nominee, I will hold my nose and vote for her. I won’t stay home, and I won’t vote for anyone on the Republican ticker, but she’s mistaken if she thinks that having helped elect her, I will be content to sit back and watch her placate “the middle” at the expense of solid liberal ideas, she is mistaken.

  • Your disdain for democracy is nauseating.

    Comment by doubtful

    Are you speaking to me or to those planning to sit out the election rather than vote for Senator Hillary Clinton? I’ve voted in every election since 1968 and worked on the successful campaigns of three Democrats.

    Thanks for the insightful comment.

  • the need to be all things to all people

    We may not like it, but Anne has just pretty well defined politics and politicians. Reality: purists lose elections (even more accurate – purists don’t choose to become elective officeholders to begin with). Even Bush knew enough to run as a “Compassionate Conservative,” and a “Uniter” to get in the door before showing his true autocratic colors.

  • “Hank (#10): we aren’t going to vote for President if Hillary the Loser is the candidate.”

    Listen to Tom Cleaver, he IS the voice of reason!

  • Are you speaking to me or to those planning to sit out the election rather than vote for Senator Hillary Clinton? I’ve voted in every election since 1968 and worked on the successful campaigns of three Democrats. -colonpowwow

    Hell yes, I’m speaking to you and everyone else who thinks that condescending to and insulting people for espousing their preference or non-preference in the future election is appropriate.

    Voting in every election since ’68 doesn’t legitimize demeaning others for choosing to or not to vote at all or for your particular candidate. That’s no better than the neocons with the black and white, my way or the highway bullshit.

    If someone chooses not to vote, that’s their choice as an American. Choosing not to vote and simply not voting are two different things. I’m not fond of the later, but if someone wants to exercise their right not to be inspired by and cast votes for any of the candidates, that is their right and privilege and when you disparage it you show your contempt for democracy and disagreement.

    I’m sorry that not everyone agrees with you or your candidate choice, but that’s the foundation of democracy. Also, bludgeoning us with the longevity of your voting record is akin to dismissing someone’s argument because of their age. Wisdom is not the result of age or the ability to fill in circles on a regular basis.

    Be careful what your fighting for: a candidate or the Constitution. I will always side with the latter.

  • Haik #11
    If Hillary is nominated I will (1) take the Nader option to pump up the ‘pissed-off’ statistics or (2) leave the line blank like I did in ’68 after HH sold us out.

    Cleaver #27 ~ Yup

    Congresswoman Shirley Chisholm, A.C. Powell’s successor from Harlem, observed that in her struggle against anti-black and anti-woman that anti-woman was harder to overcome.

    Anybody who thinks that Ohio and Florida are going to elect a woman or a black is blowing an incredible amount of smoke up his/her own ass. I could be wrong. I would like to be wrong – but I don’t think that I am.

  • Obama is in some difficulty on this one. In reality, his response is correct, although the explanation is too intricate to counteract the initial impression Hillary emphasized.

    By “pre-conditions” the questioner undoubtedly meant insurmountable ones such as fair and free elections in Syria. These act as barriers to any diplomatic discourse. And, as Obama pointed out later, there would be planning before any meeting.

    If these were real debates with time for exchanges between candidates these points would have become clear. But they are not and, in the meantime, Obama must be alert for the appropriate, firm soundbites.

    Homer http://www.altara.blogspot.com

  • Those Dems who won’t vote for Hillary are like the Naderites of 2000. Haven’t we gotten past the idea of Tweedle Dee Dee and Tweedle Dee Dum? But still you have to vote or un-vote your conscience.

  • Doubtful #38

    Wow. I stand corrected. I’ll be careful about not getting too preachy or condescending.Thanks for showing me the way.

    BTW, I thought I was attacking a concept (sitting out elections and de facto helping out the Republican nominee) rather than attacking someone personally for forcefully expressing an opinion on a public forum.

    Again, thanks so much.

  • Can anyone who is condemning Hillary Clinton because of her AUF vote please point me to the polls in 2002 that showed, in the time period leading up to the vote, that the AUF, or George Bush’s handling of the presidency, were disapproved by the majority of the population? You can’t, because in the Fall of 2002, both the option for the use of force against Iraq, and George Bush’s presidency were both overwhelmingly favored by the American people – including Senator Clinton’s constituents in New York.

    There’s a whole lot of people out there who believe 1) that giving deference to elected leaders during times of national crisis and 2) that Senators and Representatives should actually *represent* the wishes of their constituents.

    At the time, the mendacity of the Bush Adminstration was not wholly appreciated by the people and Hillary Clinton was not elected to be a bomb-thrower. Bush plainly lied and misused the AUF, but that was not apparent in October 2002. It’s one thing to play Monday morning quarterback, but it’s quite another thing to then turn around and make that an all-or-nothing make or break litmus test for short-sighted partisans.

  • …Kucinich and Gravel have lashed out at the top tier with angry outbursts, which tend to be ignored.

    I certainly do not ignore those “angry outbursts” — in fact they echo exactly my sentiment. But, I guess that you’re in the habit of ignoring your commentators/readers as well, CB.

    Where the hell are these so-called “more competitive candidates” blessed by the Corporate Military-Industrial Media that you refer to on the current destruction of our Constitutional Republic by King George? The so-called “more competitive candidates” will not receive my vote standing on the sidelines of the current Constitutional crisis.

    But a candidate like Kucinich, who has taken action to preserve our Constitutional Republic will receive my vote.

    But, by all means, just ignore me and anyone else who believes in LEADERSHIP in these times of universal deceit. After all, what do I do but lash out at the “top tier” with “angry outbursts”? Pfff.

  • If Obama were really playing this one right, he would treat Hillary as if she were his Republican opponent, because if he thinks he will have an easier time of it if he is the nominee, he is sadly mistaken. Not only will they hit him with everything they can, one of the things they will hit him with is how he has responded to Hillary.

    Hillary’s problem is that she – like a lot of women – has had to be less like a woman to counter the fears that women aren’t tough enough to do a man’s job. And when you are a tough woman, you get blasted for not being feminine enough; it’s a fine line that is hard to straddle.

    I think Obama has promise, but he has not stood out for me in his time in the Senate, failing, in my opinion, to be a leader on a lot of issues and sitting back waiting for others to see which way he wants to go. That makes me uneasy about him as president – and Hillary has shown some of those same tendencies.

    Argh.

  • Vermonter, I don’t get this… Katrina van der Heuval complains more than once that Bill Clinton did not meet with Hugo Chavez? But Hugo Chavez was the leader of an abortive coup attempt in Venezuela, later imprisoned, in 1992!

  • Careful JKap, support of anyone other than the once and future queen will have the Clintonistas at your throat. In their democracy, there is no room for difference of opinions.

  • In my unbridled opinion, the anti-thesis to American Democracy is political solidarity — witness the ReThug Leninists now holed-up in the Capitol holding our Government hostage. But here we are swimming in it–political solidarity–in this thread.

    And, again, in my less than humble opinion, political calculation is also caustic to the American Way of Life (i.e. our freedoms and rights guaranteed by the Constitution and our Republican system of government).

    I say all of that because my philosophy is simple (and I know I’ll be lectured later about what an “idiot” I am from Tom Cleaver, et. al.) — one of the few remaining powers of We, The People, is the right to vote as we choose –or at least as Diebold chooses. Politicians like Clinton, Obama, & Edwards want my vote (at least that’s the theory, right?).

    Therefore –and I can hear the accusation of being a “single-issue voter” already– I will not cast my vote for a candidate who stands on the sidelines of the current constitutional crisis facing our country –thus making my vote irrelevant to many of you, I presume.

    Signed,

    A Ralph Nader 2000 Voter

  • The time to not-vote for Hillary is in the primaries. Then if your fellow Democratics make her the nominee then you vote for her. (for practical reasons.) Vote for an independent for president and say hello to President Giuliani. Refrain from voting then say hello to President Romney. As they say, it’s your choice.

  • If I don’t vote for Hillary, and, indeed, absolutely refuse to vote for her, and vote for Giuliani or Romney or Thompson, will, at last, Hillary go away? I don’t want her on the national stage, just….. go away.

  • If I were the Republican candidate for the president and Hillary was my opponent, I’d run quite a few ads of Hillary making faces during George Bush’s post-9/11 speech to Congress.

    And say something like this — At a time of national tragedy, this person was thinking about her own ambitions. Do you really want that person as your President?

    That ought to gin up quite a few people, don’t you think?

    Just sayin’.

  • JKap, that is a lovely, touching, democratic approach to voting.
    Snow White is also a lovely, touching story.
    Alas, both are fairy tales.

    Politics is the art of the possible. As progressives have — millions of times now — chastised the rightwing, “reality matters.”

    Nader is not reality. Kucinich is not reality. Hell, I’d like to be President. Or the next CEO of Berkshire Hathaway. Or the lead singer of the next big Alt-Rock band. And none of those wishes are any different than Kucinich wishing he would become President.

    So, sure, you can vote for them if that is what your conscience tells you to do. Its a lovely statement. But don’t expect other progressives to be patting you on the back with thanks and warmth when John Paul Stevens is replaced on the Supreme Court by Ted Olson or Orrin Hatch. Because that is the real world result of the “if the Democratic candidate isn’t pure enough I’ll mathematically help the Republican candidate!”

    I’ll put this bluntly. Anyone who honestly believes there was only a “dime’s worth” of difference between George W Bush and Al Gore (and in the possible alternate histories they represent for the past 6 years) is either insane or dumber than a box of rocks. Anyone who hasn’t learned the truth of that statement from 2000 and the following six years is either more insane or even dumber than dumber than a box of rocks.

    Do whatever you need to do in the primaries.
    Then in the general vote in the manner most likely to keep Republicans out of all positions of power.
    Period.

    We are one supreme court justice away from losing everything for at least a generation.

  • “When you vote for the lesser of two evils, you get an evil.” ~ Bobby Kennedy

  • if-the-dem-nominee-is-not-my-choice voters,

    We are one supreme court justice away from losing everything for at least a generation.

    Think about that and the 3000+ lives lost in the Iraq fiasco, Nader 2000 voters.

    There is a difference between the two parties. Do you really think Gore would have put us in Iraq? Or put Alito and Roberts on the Supreme Court? Do you think those things are insignificant?

    Yes, both major parties are too beholden to big money, but when it comes down to some really critical issues, Dems are for minority rights, for ensuring rights to privacy and control over one’s body, for diplomacy as an essentially aspect of our foreign policy. The GOP as a party are not.

    Work for your preferred candidate. Vote in the primaries. Donate money to your third party of choice. Tell us how great your candidate is on blogs like this. But in the general election, when the reality is a choice between the GOP and the Dems, please don’t help enable the republican’ts. Our country can’t afford any more of them; i’m not even sure our planet can afford another GOP presidency.

  • Do you really think Gore would have put us in Iraq? -Edo

    Gore is not Clinton, and Clinton did put us in Iraq.

  • doubtful,

    Please name the leading GOP candidate that you think would be less likely than Hillary to lead us into a war with Iran. Please name the GOP candidate that would be less likely than Hillary to nominate a nominate somone like Alito or Roberts to the supreme court?

    Lets be clear about my views: Hillarys affirmative vote for AUF in 2002 was a bad vote. So was Edwards’ vote. Edwards has done the right thing since then. Hillary has not. Okay? (and more on topic to this blog post, I think Obama is smart to keep hammering away at it.)

    my point is to those who will not vote for the Dem candidate in the general election because the Dem candidate is not liberal enough or is too beholden to corporate money, or whatever. Clearly they can vote for whomever they want to. However, they cannot look at what happened since 2000 and credibly claim that as “there is no difference between the two major parties and thus their respective nominees”, a vote for someone other than Gore didn’t matter. It did. And it will in 2008.

  • Re: Zeitgeist @ #52

    Thanks for the dialogue — although I could do without your sarcasm. And thanks for the Primer on Voting in America According to Zeitgeist.

    Of course Gore would have made a better President than King George, hands down. So too, would have Nader, Kucinich, Zeitgeist, JKap, Thomas Chong, the list is endless of course.

    But look at it this way — I didn’t vote for G.I. Joe Lieberman. Apparently, you did.

    None of that affects my personal ideology. I’ll take autonomy over solidarity any day within a democracy. But hey, that’s just me.

    I’m sure that you and I have a great many things in common that we want for our country (and I really hope that we get them!). Where we differ is just what I have repeated above –I will not cast my vote for a candidate who stands on the sidelines of the current constitutional crisis facing our country.

    Think of that for a moment — if more concerned citizens expressed that sentiment to the “more competitive candidates” (as CB characterizes them rather unconvincingly) — perhaps Clinton, Obama, & Edwards would demonstrate a tad bit of leadership in these frightening times.

    And as far as your assertion that “Kucinich is not reality,” I respectfully submit that neither are you reality.

    It seems as if you have bought wholesale into the propriety of the Corporate Military Industrial Media that tells you who to vote for (ah, but alas, in actuality it is a grand, quixotic scheme of political calculation that governs your ideology — “the art of the possible”). Apparently you accept the endless, self-serving, self-perpetuating, self-fulfilling cycle of rule-by-the-few –because the net result of your political calculation seems to be the candidate that the Corporate Military Industrial Media has ordained for mass-consumption.

    And since you were obliged to cast a few barbs indirectly in my direction, I also submit that you deserve every bit of persecution and tyranny perpetrated by King George and his Private Corporate Cabal –since you have apparently bought wholesale into the political system of his masters, the Corporate Military-Industrial Media, through which he ascended into power.

  • JKap #59

    D’ya think we CAN nominate Tommy Chong? I’ll work in that campaign. Add Kinky Friedman as VP for balance and we’d have a dream ticket.

  • D’ya think we CAN nominate Tommy Chong?

    Count me in. I’d definately vote for Tommy Chong in the primaries.

  • And as far as your assertion that “Kucinich is not reality,” I respectfully submit that neither are you reality.

    Which was precisely my point: Denny and I are equally likely to become President.

    This is not a matter of being told what to think by the CMIM. I worked in politics for about 15 years doing campaign work and in the offices of elected officials before deciding I’d had enough and focusing on law and policy from a non-election-oriented position. Yes, the media complicates things, but there really are simple realities about human nature, human observation and what people collectively think of as electable traits. No amount of wishing on your part can change that anytime soon, and certainly not by 2008. There is an “it” factor that Bill Clinton, for example, had (and has) in massive quantities. Obama has it as well. Go talk with a random bunch of ordinary folks and you find that Kucinich virtually has a negative “it.” In 2004 I stood in a crowded caucus room, a great town hall style meeting, full of activist Democrats – and one lonely Kucinch supporter, unable to make any headway.

    I have no idea what you mean by suggesting “political calculation” is “quixotic.” Tilting at windmills is really the very opposite of political calculation. Political calculation may be distasteful, but it wins and as the Rethugs have proven, in our system the winner pretty well takes all. You don’t get bonus points for high-mindedness or ideological purity in your loss. It doesn’t earn you a shield from the consequences of losing.

    Purists and extremists are the stuff of romantic tales of glory. They even serve a purpose in generating innovative ideas within a party. But they are not rational actors, whether right or left, and the facts are staggeringly on my side that they do not win elections.

    Your position, and that of progressive purists in general, is that “extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice, and moderation in pursuit of justice is no virtue.” Which puts you in great conservative company with Barry Goldwater, who also couldn’t get elected president.

    Extremism is a vice. And moderation gets you to 50%+1 a lot faster than any other alternative.

  • Let me try that more succinctly: All I am saying is that there has to be balance between ideals and pragmatism. That is real world political reality. Letting pragmatism be part of the mix does not make me Bush-lite. Over time, candidates I actually did official work for won more races than they lost. But I was an unrepentant, die-hard, there-for-the-alleged-scream Deaniac in 2004.

  • Gore is not Clinton, and Clinton did put us in Iraq.

    He did??? When?? -Ethel-to-Tilly

    Hah, HRC, not Bill.

    And the more I think about it, I don’t know if Al would’ve kept us out of Iraq. He chose Lieberman as a trusted adviser. With him whispering into his ear, who knows?

    To those who say Nader spoiled the election for Al Gore, you’re forgetting that Al Gore won the election and the Supreme Court took it away from him and not even Gore himself would stand up in the Senate and do anything about hit.

    So while I admire and respect Gore, he had his chance and it’s passed, and frankly, I’m too damned tired of two families with corporate interests running this country, so damn me all you want, but I will not hold my nose in November of next year, but instead vote for someone I think is a qualified and competent leader of this country.

  • If Bill could run again, I would vote for him. His wife is another matter entirely. She is Dubya with a brain and wearing ladies’ pantsuits. More importantly, the Republicans are and likely will be the walking wounded come next year and Hillary as the nominee is the best hope they have for winning regardless. We cannot afford to take that risk after eight years of the damage Dubya has inflicted on this country. Besides, John Paul Stevens can’t live forever. Hillary isn’t worth the risk.

  • Hey, Zeitgeist, how about calling those masters of moderation and electability that you want every non-koolaid drinker to blindly vote for in lock-step and that CB anointed as the “more competitive candidates” to a higher standard? Thanks.

  • I do call for a higher standard. That’s why I don’t vote Republican. : )

    Seriously, I’m not sure who you are looking for. I started paying attention to Presidential campaigns in the 72 election, and I can’t recall ever having as many choices as qualified, dignified and competent as the Dems do this year. What golden age do think was or will be out there where all the candidates, like the children of Lake Wobegon, are above average? What Dems in the pipeline didn’t run that you think would be so vastly superior to these obviously compromised charlatans?

    Because even if you think you have some, I feel very safe predicting that once they hit the trail and had to raise money, appease wildly diverse audiences across the country, react on the fly with 20 TV cameras in their face, and be subjected to the oppo research teams of every other candidate and 527 and their computers, those candidates suddenly wouldn’t look any better than the ones we have now.

    It is not a pretty process. “Nice” people don’t choose this profession. People who never make compromises don’t last very long in this profession. And the people who develop the resumes to be qualified for president are people with seriously unhealthy, socially-inappropriate levels of ambition and ego.

    But that has always been true. You know, maybe the wingnuts are right about progressives. Maybe progressives really are effete ivory tower elitists who look down on everyone. Let the Repubs run unopposed for every office – god knows no candidate on our side is good enough to deserve our support.

    And you wonder why the Democratic left are electoral laughing stocks who lose every freakin year.

    You can dream, or you can do. Dreaming never won an election – or more important, never stopped a Rethug from winning one.

  • And you wonder why the Democratic left are electoral laughing stocks who lose every freakin year.

    No, I wonder why fascism has been enthroned in the United States of America and it just keeps getting worse.

    I wonder why Clinton, Obama, & Edwards don’t have the same reasonable concerns for the impropriety of the 9/11 Commission Cover-up and associated Report that I have. For example, World Trade Center 7, which was not struck by an aircraft, collapsed some 8 hours after the collapse of the Twin Towers, yet this unprecedented event, the collapse of a 47-story steel-framed skyscraper, was entirely omitted from the 9/11 Commission Report. Isn’t the destruction of property a facet of terrorism that merits investigation? I guess the 9/11 Commission couldn’t find it in their measly $15M budget.

    Are not Clinton, Obama, & Edwards troubled by such a glaring omission? Clinton and Obama want to talk about foreign policy, but apparently getting the facts straight about some facets of international terrorism is not important to them. Some leadership I say.

  • I wonder why Clinton, Obama, & Edwards don’t have the same reasonable concerns for the impropriety of the 9/11 Commission Cover-up and associated Report that I have. For example, World Trade Center 7, which was not struck by an aircraft, collapsed some 8 hours after the collapse of the Twin Towers, yet this unprecedented event, the collapse of a 47-story steel-framed skyscraper, was entirely omitted from the 9/11 Commission Report. Isn’t the destruction of property a facet of terrorism that merits investigation? I guess the 9/11 Commission couldn’t find it in their measly $15M budget.

    I keep hearing the theories about building 7 over and over again. I did some reading of my own and found that there was a very large fuel oil tank underground that was pumping oil up into the mechanical area for hours where it fed the fire that weakened the beams just as the fire weakened the beams in the two WTC North and South buildings. Perhaps you know of this site but here is the reference anyway. At some point you have to use Ochams Razor when coming to a conclusion.
    Anyway I like your other comments, keep an open mind. I cannot believe a group of people as incompetent as the present crowd could have successfully blown up anything, (outside of Iraq, of course) without leaving clues all over the place.
    http://www.debunking911.com/WTC7.htm
    RTSlater

  • Still doesn’t explain the impropriety of omitting WTC7 from the 9/11 Commission Report altogether.

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