Clinton and Obama and Iraq … oh my

All things being equal, seeing and hearing the top two Democratic presidential hopefuls fight over Iraq policy is far preferable to a debate between the two over race. But given the last few days, it’s only slightly preferable.

We got a very good sense of the Clinton campaign’s basic pitch on Obama’s Iraq position during Hillary Clinton’s appearance on “Meet the Press” yesterday.

“What [Bill Clinton] was talking about was very directly about the story of Senator Obama’s campaign, being premised on a speech he gave in 2002. And that was to his credit. He gave a speech opposing the war in Iraq. He gave a very impassioned speech against it and consistently said that he was against the war, he would vote against the funding for the war. By 2003, that speech was off his Web site. By 2004, he was saying that he didn’t really disagree with the way George Bush was conducting the war.

“And by 2005, ‘6 and ‘7, he was voting for $300 billion in funding for the war. The story of his campaign is really the story of that speech and his opposition to Iraq. I think it is fair to ask questions about, ‘Well, what did you do after the speech was over?’ And when he became a senator, he didn’t go to the floor of the Senate to condemn the war in Iraq for 18 months. He didn’t introduce legislation against the war in Iraq. He voted against timelines and deadlines initially.

“So I think it’s important that we get the contrasts and the comparisons out. I think that’s fair game.”

Clinton was so fond of this assessment that she repeated it, almost word for word, a few minutes later in the same interview, and then the campaign distributed a copy of her remarks to its press list.

The broader dynamic is pretty interesting because it highlights the strengths and weaknesses of both Clinton and Obama.

For her part, Clinton’s strength is that she has a firm command of military affairs, and purports to have more experience on these issues. Her weakness is that, when confronted with the biggest question of her career (whether to support the 2002 AUMF), Clinton made the wrong call. (Twice in yesterday’s “MTP” appearance, Clinton said she had been misled by the Bush White House.)

Obama’s strength, obviously, is the opposite. He got the big question right, in almost prescient terms. His weakness is that he is perceived as less experienced on matters pertaining to the military and foreign affairs.

The trick of it, of course, is that over the last four years, Obama and Clinton have been Senate colleagues, voting largely the same way on Iraq policy. Clinton mentioned that she thinks it’s “important” to “get the contrasts and the comparisons out.” Counter-intuitively, that means focusing our attention on 2002 and 2003 — which would seem to work to Clinton’s detriment, because that’s when her position was at its most mistaken, and Obama was at his strongest.

Now, it’s worth noting that Clinton’s point is largely (but not entirely) right when it comes Obama’s Iraq record. Obama didn’t take office and instantly become the leading opponent of Bush’s war policy. He eventually supported cutting off funding, but it was not his initial position. He eventually unveiled legislation to force the president’s hand, but it took him a couple of years to get there.

But here’s the thing that makes Clinton’s criticism complicated: at every step, Clinton either voted exactly the same way as Obama, or was to his right on the issue. In other words, Clinton is criticizing Obama for casting the same votes she cast.

And why is she doing this? Because, when you really break it down, Clinton’s criticisms have nothing to do with Iraq and everything to do with consistency. It’s seems bizarre, but all of the charges she made on “MTP” about Obama’s position on Iraq had almost nothing do with the merit of Obama’s position on Iraq.

In effect, Clinton seems to be arguing, “If Obama were a better war critic, he wouldn’t have been voting like me the last few years.” The audience isn’t supposed to come away from this thinking Obama’s wrong — by Clinton’s logic, he’s right — but rather, that Obama’s unreliable.

Ezra added:

The issue isn’t the issue — about which Obama was correct — it’s his consistency on the issue. Barack Obama was right on Iraq, and Hillary Clinton was wrong. Obama could have made a couple more speeches, but there really wasn’t much he could do to divert the course of the war as a lone Senator. By contrast, there was very much Hillary Clinton, and her husband, could have done to divert the war — and all it would have taken was exactly what Obama did. A prescient, fiercely oppositional speech during the run-up to the invasion. Nor has Clinton, who routinely promises to end the war once in office, exercised political leadership in the Senate, using either her media power or parliamentary pull to sustain a brave stand against the conflict. Instead, she has spoken of her desire to end it and, in reality, gone along with the cowed, ineffectual approach of the Senate Democrats: Register opposition, vote against bills, eventually pass spending measures that continue the war.

I just don’t see how this becomes a winning issue for the Clinton campaign. Am I missing something?

If Clinton and Obama can’t get together and reach detente about these issues how are they supposed to do all that vaunted negotiation to repair America’s world image? I’d like them both to act like leaders and realize they’re hurting the party with their “fighting”.

  • I don’t think it’s a consistency thing – I think it’s a “what does he really believe” thing. Clinton is pointing out that when Obama didn’t have the ability to do anything about Iraq he was a vocal critic. As soon as he was in the same situation as herself he started voting the same way she did. In other words, Clinton is saying something to the effect of “Obama may talk about my Iraq War vote being wrong, but he wouldn’t have done anything differently had he been in the same situation I was in 2002.”

    I may be reading into it because, well, that’s MY major criticism of Obama – that while he may have seen that invading Iraq was a stupid idea in 2002, I have exactly ZERO evidence that he would have voted any differently from Clinton if he were already in the Senate and had a seat to defend (and presidential aspirations). His record on Iraq AFTER getting into the Senate is almost the same as Clinton’s, which doesn’t exactly give a lot of credit to him as an anti-war candidate, or even someone with the foresight to see a disaster unfolding and do what he can to stop it.

  • (Twice in yesterday’s “MTP” appearance, Clinton said she had been misled by the Bush White House.)

    Thus making her unqualified for office. Fool me once, won’t get fooled again; but she did. She doesn’t have the judgment necessary to be President.

    Because, when you really break it down, Clinton’s criticisms have nothing to do with Iraq and everything to do with consistency.

    Better to be wrong all of the time, then right occasionally.

    This really is a weak issue for her, and I’m surprised to see her highlighting it.

    And, yes, I’d love to see them pull the funding carpet out from under Bush, but let’s be honest with ourselves: there is a difference between paying for something that was broken and being the one breaking it.

  • I just don’t see how this becomes a winning issue for the Clinton campaign. Am I missing something?

    Yes. The Clinton’s learned the lesson of Rove. Attack your opponent on his strengths. You don’t have to make it your winner. Just through enough confusion into the air that they can no longer claim it as their winner.

    If Obama comes back and points out that she was casting the votes, he is now arguing that there record isn’t really that different and therefore undermining his own best strength is that he got it right when she got it wrong. Good Lord, her tactics make me sick.

  • The Clintonistas have internalized the politics of Karl Rove as a consequence, one presumes, of having been the target of them for 16+ years. The race stuff is about trying to get Obama to lose his cool so he looks untrustworthy (inconsistent) and like an angry Black man. This line of attack is, as you say, about painting Obama as untrustworthy and unaccomplished. Both lines of attack draw attention away from Clinton’s somewhat thin record in the Senate and on her own politically.

    It is all pretty indirect and one might say shifty. Moreover, “consistency” is just what we have had too much of for the last 7 years. Obama can come out and say he is going to be flexible and pragmatic. He also needs to counter the Hillary camp’s attacks that have a subtle racial subtext without taking the bait and getting angry. .

  • Yes, Dale. A pox on both their houses. Clinton is wrong for going after Obama with cheap misleading attacks and Obama is wrong for….pointing out that she uses cheap misleading attacks? Oh wait, maybe we should just pox her house.

  • Well said, Dale.

    Also, if I remember correctly (and I know I might not), back when we had the first fight over war funding with the new Dem Congress (what was that, late March, early April 2007) it wasn’t Clinton who took a big hunk of the wind out of Dem sails and bravado by saying no lawmaker “wants to play chicken with our troops,” promising to fully fund the President’s request for Iraq war funding. That was Obama. Those words did not help push forward the Dem position on the war, and I think many at the time believed they did significant harm to the Dem position.

    Not that it really mattered (in hindsight). But it is still something that if I were Clinton I would focus on assuming it was not the same as Obama’s (although I do not necessarily remember her position at that time, which very well might have been the same as Obama’s).

  • Obama benefits from an image of being above politics and an atypical black politician.

    The Clinton campaign’s current strategy is blow up both those images, by hammering him on Iraq consistency (however disingenuous that may be) and trying to draw him out into a discussion of race (however low they’ll have to go in order to do that).

    It’s pretty simple and pretty obvious and, overall, pretty slimy.

    It’s sad; Hillary started out as far-and-away my 3rd choice for Pres, way back in Oct 06. Obama was 2. Feingold 1.

    Now, I’d change my registration from Dem to Indie if she’s the nominee. Any party of which she’s the leader…is a party that is endorsing these political strategies. Which makes it a party in which I’d rather not continue membership.

    That doesn’t mean I’d necessarily vote GOP, or 3rd party. But she’d have to do a lot to earn my vote. It won’t come as a given.

  • (Twice in yesterday’s “MTP” appearance, Clinton said she had been misled by the Bush White House.)

    So she was tricked by George Bush, eh? How smart does that make her? And who tricked her on Kyl-Lieberman? I’d hate to see how badly she gets tricked by Vladimir Putin or Hu Jintao.

  • Here is how it is a winning issue. They already have the frame out there that concedes Obama is a good talker, but that talk is not enough.

    Now they show that talk is cheap: he talked a good game when he was not in the Senate, but once he got there, he voted just like every other insider Democrat.

    Looked at differently, it is Obama, much more than Clinton, running as the candidate of change. She can put the burden of proof on that issue on him: ok, you say you’re the change guy, and your view on Iraq was different, but what change did you really make? How was your voting record any different than mine?

    It also makes it hard for his supporters to attack her voting record on Iraq.

    So yeah, it is a bit risky on her part by calling attention to her problematic Iraq record, but as a strategy it does make some sense.

  • Clinton’s argument is very carefully parsed and thought out, it’s very deceiving. It’s why we need to be done with the Clinton era of politics in the White House. I’ve been a Democrat for 25 years, but if she’s the nominee, I’ll sit at home and cry in my beer in November.

  • I don’t think it’s a consistency thing – I think it’s a “what does he really believe” thing. Clinton is pointing out that when Obama didn’t have the ability to do anything about Iraq he was a vocal critic. As soon as he was in the same situation as herself he started voting the same way she did. In other words, Clinton is saying something to the effect of “Obama may talk about my Iraq War vote being wrong, but he wouldn’t have done anything differently had he been in the same situation I was in 2002.”

    I may be reading into it because, well, that’s MY major criticism of Obama – that while he may have seen that invading Iraq was a stupid idea in 2002, I have exactly ZERO evidence that he would have voted any differently from Clinton if he were already in the Senate and had a seat to defend (and presidential aspirations). His record on Iraq AFTER getting into the Senate is almost the same as Clinton’s, which doesn’t exactly give a lot of credit to him as an anti-war candidate, or even someone with the foresight to see a disaster unfolding and do what he can to stop it.

    The problem with this line of thinking is that it conflates opposing invasion with supporting withdrawal, which are two different matters, with two different sets of considerations.

    For example, Obama’s voting record is also identical to Dick Durbin’s, as far as I can tell, and Durbin voted against the AUMF. So, we can use the same logic you used to get us to the conclusion that Obama definitely would’ve voted against the AUMF.

    Only, that’s not what happened at all.

    The truth is, you could’ve been against going into Iraq b/c of fears of sectarian violence and political instability and security problems, and still felt, afterwards, that immediate withdrawal was irresponsible without at least making a credible effort to, say, rebuild electrical and water infrastructure and train a competent security force…and as such only come around to favoring withdrawal when it became clear that no such credible effort was going to happen, and the window where such an effort would be effective at stabilizing the situation had passed.

    There’s nothing inconsistent within that position (it was mine, as well, btw), and that doesn’t make me a war supporter. It makes me a war opponent who decided that, while invading was a stupid idea, once we did invade, we had a responsibility to at least try to make it rebuild the country we destroyed.

  • “And who tricked her on Kyl-Lieberman?”

    I was going to say “right on” until I realized that Obama couldn’t be bothered to take a stand on kyl-lieberman and did not vote.

  • It also makes it hard for his supporters to attack her voting record on Iraq. -Z

    I have to disagree.

    I would wager a significant portion of Americans would see tightening the purse strings as an affront to the troops. We know that is not necessarily the case, but if I’m wagering correctly, Obama can always fall back on that argument.

    “Of course I funded the troops Hillary put in Iraq.”

  • socratic_me said:

    Yes, Dale. A pox on both their houses.

    Actually instead of a pox I was wishing a pax on both their houses. Peace.

  • Put another way: you could’ve been very against the war b/c you foresaw the coming conflict that would require a huge commitment of time and money on the part of the U.S. with weak chances of seeing an return on those investments.

    But once we withdrew, you still had that huge commitment.

    Much like James Fallows’ anti-war piece in the Atlantic in 02 “The 51st state?” was an argument against invasion, but not an argument for immediate withdrawal post invasion.

  • I was going to say “right on” until I realized that Obama couldn’t be bothered to take a stand on kyl-lieberman and did not vote.

    Meh, this is a myth. That vote was scheduled for a Friday evening, and Obama took the entire day off from campaigning to be there for that and other important war votes. As the Senate came to close, Harry Reid tabled the vote and said it wouldn’t be coming back up in the near future, so Obama hit the campaign trail the next morning.

    At about 10am that day Reid announced they’d be having the vote at noon…even if someone called Obama immediately to inform him, and he had dropped everything he was doing, canceled all his NH events (that’s where he was), drove to the nearest airport and got on a private jet to DC, he still most likely would not have made it back in time for that vote.

  • I agree with NonyNony – and I will take it one step further: Clinton isn’t ashamed of her votes. The rest of us may be, but she isn’t, so what she’s saying is that Obama wants us to think that, because he opposed then a war that the majority came to oppose later, he’s still on the correct side of the issue.

    But, that’s an argument that really only works for him if he’s not in the Senate, and we can’t do a side-by-side comparison of his record with hers. When we do that comparison, we see that they are pretty much in lock step – so, she says – and rightly so – what happened to the anti-war stance?

    It’s all a rhetorical shell game, and unfortunately, I think much of the finer points never reach the eyes or ears of the electorate, depending as they are on the mainstream media to five them the “facts.”

    My hope is that the media and the public begin to tune out the endless bickering and Edwards can, while Clinton and Obama are still beating each other bloody in the sandbox, rise to high enough to slide in as the only candidate who’s adult enough to be trusted with the presidency. To do that, he needs to stop speaking up for Obama – and continue to speak his own message.

  • “But once we withdrew, you still had that huge commitment.”

    Yes, but without all the dying US military members. And possibly without as many others in Iraq.

  • That is one interpretation and opinion.

    It’s certainly not an opinion that Harry Reid said the issue was tabled and there would be no vote, or that Obama had taken that day off to vote on war issues, nor is it an opinion that Reid brought it back up for vote the following morning without warning, on short notice, while Obama was hours away in the middle of a campaign event.

    So my “opinion” is backed by a lot of evidence, evidence that flies in the face of your opinion.

  • Obama’s strength is that he is a tabula rasa onto which people can project their desires. He just doesn’t have much in his record to object to because his record is so short. Plus, he keeps his campaign rhetoric non-specific so people can’t find any contrasts between it and their desires, what they hope him to be.

    The flip side of this is he can be portrayed as a pig in the poke, as the Clintons are trying to do. Trying to turn his refusal to commit against him.

  • Michael, Obama was a “no vote” for that piece of legislation. That is fact, plain and simple. The reasons behind it are merely convenient excuses for not being there to vote.

  • Am I missing something?

    Yeah, the part where Clinton said “I’m sorry I voted for this tragic war. Barak was right, and I was wrong”

    If she would start out by saying that, her other words might have some meaning. But she can’t, so they don’t.

    Fuck you, Hillary. You fucked up the war vote, and now you’re trying to smear the guy who didn’t.

  • Seconding Dale (#1), how can each of these candidates be trusted to tell the American people the straight, unadulterated truth if they and/or their surrogates can’t even do that during a primary campaign.

    What a sickening embarrassment this whole process has become. As a society, we should be totally ashamed of ourselves.

  • The reasons behind it are merely convenient excuses for not being there to vote. -bubba

    I disagree with that. There are valid reason for missing a vote, and, while I’m not vouching for the validity of Michael’s scenario, it certainly sounds like one to me.

    I had heard he had the flu, and frankly was disinclined to give him the benefit of the doubt because of that.

    Kyl-Lieberman is one of the most upsetting pieces of garbage to come out of the Senate in 2007, so I’m understandably upset with those who voted for it as well as those who did not vote (Obama and McCain).

  • Right, doubtful. What really was it? No one really seems to know. And I agree 100% with you on your last sentence.

  • Clinton is clearly SMEARING Obama on Iraq – on MTP she said, “And in Senator Obama’s recent book, he clearly says he thought that Saddam Hussein had chemical and biological weapons, and that he still coveted nuclear weapons. His judgment was that, at the time in 2002, we didn’t need to make any efforts. My belief was we did need to pin Saddam down, put inspectors in”.

    So Obama was a Saddam-lover who hated inspections? Where does Hillary get this s&^%???? It’s An OUTRIGHT LIE.

    What Obama really said: “What I sensed, though, was that the threat Saddam posed was not imminent, the Administration’s rationales for war were flimsy and ideologically driven, and the war in Afghanistan was far from complete. And I was certain that by choosing precipitous, unilateral military action over the hard slog of diplomacy, coercive inspections, and smart sanctions, America was missing an opportunity to build a broad base of support for its policies.”

    Hear that Hill? He said co-ercive inspections. Stop lying Hill – we love you but the more you swiftboat Obama, the more you prove his point.

  • Wow, that circle of bullets is really starting to do some damage. This campaign is feeling more like a strategy of mutually assured distruction (MAD).

  • CB wrote: “Am I missing something?”

    RacerX said: “Yeah, the part where Clinton said “I’m sorry I voted for this tragic war. Barak was right, and I was wrong”

    Then we get the enjoyable General Election ads of the Rethugs calling her a flip-flopper on the war.

    I for one can do without the apology to get a Democrat in the White House. Somehow I find Clinton’s unbridled ambition less toxic than BGII’s unlimited incompetence.

  • There are only 2 Senators who missed the Kyl-Lieberman vote – Obama and McCain. Two – out of 100. Somehow, everyone else managed to make it – even all the other presidential contenders in the Senate.

    It has been reported that all 100 Senators were notified the night before that the vote would be taking place the next day, and 98 other Senators managed to be make the vote.

    I am less annoyed that he missed the vote that that he thinks he has the right to hector Clinton for how she voted. It doesn’t count that he says how he would have voted (gosh, why does that sound so familiar?).

    Give me a break.

  • What Anne said. Especially after Obama did some high-fallutin’ tough talk speechifying not that long before, saying how this was such an important issue and how the pres must be stopped in his tracks (I paraphrase, obviously).

  • Michael –

    I don’t disagree with your Durbin example and the problem of prediction, but that also makes it equally disingenuous when Obama slams Clinton for her AUMF vote.

    The reality is that there is no good way to compare –

    1) Obama opposed the war when he was NOT in the Senate, and has voted the same as HRC since he has been there;

    2) Many good Democrats who were there voted for the AUMF;

    3) Edwards voted wrong while he was in the Senate and has said the right things since he has been out.

    The clearest conclusion from this is that opposing the war is easy when you aren’t there, much harder when you are. That makes it impossible to really know how Obama would have voted had he been there for the AUMF. His taking a pass on Kyl-Lieberman doesn’t make me particularly confident he would have voted against the AUMF.

  • It has been reported that all 100 Senators were notified the night before that the vote would be taking place the next day, and 98 other Senators managed to be make the vote.

    Has it? By whom, Taylor Marsh? Show me evidence.

    Here’s the congressional record

    Mr. REID: Mr. Chairman, there will be no more votes tonight . We have tried to work something out on the Kyl-Lieberman amendment and the Biden amendment. We have been unable to do that .

    We have been very close a few times , but we have just been informed that Senator Biden will not have a vote anytime in the near future . There will not be a vote on the other one anytime in the near future . We hope tonight will bring more clearness on the issue .

    That was as the Senate adjourned Friday night, Sept 25th.

    Harry Reid announced that they would indeed hold a vote on K-L the next morning, Sept 26th, and something like 45 minutes-1.5 hours later, they did, when Obama was already out of town.

    Can you provide documented evidence that the Senators were forewarned? Because I just produced documented evidence that they were specifically told not to expect a vote in the near future

  • “The clearest conclusion from this is that opposing the war is easy when you aren’t there, much harder when you are.”

    That sure sounds like a vidication of the GOP’s stance on the war. Some of the war’s harshest critics sure seem like they are the furthest from DC.

  • Apologies, missed this line in the copy-paste:

    Mr. REID. Mr. Chairman, there will be no more votes tonight . We have tried to work something out on the Kyl-Lieberman amendment and the Biden amendment. We have been unable to do that .

    Then, as noted above, he says Biden is leaving and they won’t have a vote on the “other one” (i.e. K-L) in the near future.

  • zeitgest–

    That’s fair, and of course it’s impossible to know anything for sure. I’m not implying certainty, I’m just pointing out the flawed logic some are using so that they might posit certainty.

    Kerry’s record on this also makes the point; he legit. did vote for “diplomacy” or at least thought he was when he voted in the affirmative on the AUMF. We know this because as it became more and more clear that the AUMF would not be used in such a manner, he spoke up loudly and passionately against a march to war. Which goes to show, a vote for AUMF could be part-and-parcel with war opposition, and both his example and the Durbin example show that a vote against the AUMF does not necessarily imply one would favor immediate withdrawal. And even someone favoring immediate withdrawal would not necessarily favor achieving that end by cutting off funding.

    The fact is, it was very difficult as an American to stand up against the war in 02. I know this because I was constantly hectored as a wussy, told to go hang out with my gay french friends, belittled, told I just didn’t get it, etc etc, when I discussed the issue with pretty much anyone except a few friends and my brother, who tended to agree with me.

    I imagine it was exponentially more difficult for a politician, no matter what district one was in. Bush’s popularity was through the roof and challenging him on issues of security was considered political suicide. And you had to basically go against not just Bush but luminaries like Colin Powell, who had great respect not just on the right but in the political middle and political left.

    Is it certain how he would’ve voted? No. But I think the evidence in favor far outweighs the evidence against. Further, I’d point out that he did literally everything he was in position to do at the time in war opposition. But the genie was already out of the bottle when he got to the Senate, and as I noted earlier, initial war opposition =/= immediate withdrawal =/= cutting off funding.

  • Can you explain why only 2 Senators missed a vote that you claim was scheduled with only 45 – 90 minutes notice? And, while we’re asking for documented evidence, where is yours that that was all the notice they got.

    And you might want to check your calendar: mine says that September 25 was a Tuesday, which would make the 26th a Wednesday.

    Also, it might be helpful for you to know that at the time of Reid’s remarks, there was an absence of a quorum in the Senate, which means that all 100 Senators were not sitting there hearing what Reid said.

    Finally, the reporting was via CNN – and yes, I know you could take that with a grain of salt – and attributed to Democratic staffers. Which I’m sure you will assume were Hillary’s, or someone else running against her.

    My take? As of that Tuesday night, they were expecting to vote imminently, AND it was just the beginning of the work week – which is why everyone – other than McCain and Obama – stuck around.

  • Anne-

    Well, perhaps because both are running for President and went on the campaign trail. Yes, you’re right, it was Tuesday/Wed, not Friday/Saturday, which hardly changes anything.

    Also, it might be helpful for you to know that at the time of Reid’s remarks, there was an absence of a quorum in the Senate, which means that all 100 Senators were not sitting there hearing what Reid said.

    Which means…what, exactly? What matters is what Reid said, which was the K-L was tabled for the near future. This is indisputable.

    Your response is to quote an unlinked article that cites anonymous staffers. And you offer a take that conveniently both flies in the face of Reid’s comments per the Senate record and dovetails nicely with your Obama-is-a-wolf-in-sheeps-clothing worldview.
    But you have to start from those assumptions to reach those conclusions. Its the definition of bias. An examination of the record suggests that most of the Senators were there because most of the Senators were not, you know, running for President. In fact, out of Dodd, Biden, Clinton, Obama, McCain, you have 5 Senators running for Pres, 3 present, 2 absent. Hardly a dispositive breakdown. In fact, by that small sample, a Pres candidate was about as likely to be present as absent. The rest of the Senators were there because it was early afternoon on a workday (a point you made! If it was a Saturday, as I mistakenly remembered, you’d be in much stronger position here). So…you don’t really persuade.

  • And, while we’re asking for documented evidence, where is yours that that was all the notice they got.

    Huh? I provided documented evidence from the night before the vote that K-L was tabled “for the near future”. Unless the near future is, basically, tomorrow’s breakfast, that was flat-out wrong. The burden is on you to demonstrate that after that notice, but before either McCain or Obama left Washington, they were given notice that the vote was going to happen.

    I already validated my narrative on what happened with the congressional record (thanks THOMAS!).

    Let’s see you validate yours.

  • Kyl-Lieberman is nothing. Its a sense of the senate resolution with no enforcement or funding. All military references were excised in order to get the votes to allow it to pass. One thing bothers me about Kyl-Lieberman: both Edwards and Obama have said that W can use it to invade Iran. That is wrong, and if they are truly worried about giving W an excuse to invade Iran (their argument against Kyl-Lieberman) they ought to speak the truth and quit stating that Kyl-Lieberman allows him to do so.

    You know what also, I dont give a damn how anyone voted on Iraq. People of good conscience that I respect and who are very bright voted both ways. Rotten intelligence was behind much of what persuaded people. Many people believed that the point was not to go to war but to use the threat to get inspectors in. The respected (at that time) Colin Powell said so. The respected (at that time) Tony Blair said so. Many of us who doubted Bush did not doubt Powell or Blair. We all only learned what a thorough liar and cheat W was AFTER this period of time not before. At that time the country was seized with patriotic fervor and presidential love and I accept that Obama states he does not know how he would have voted on the resolution at that time had he been a senator and his president was asking for this authority. He is being honest because I know it would have been a hard choice for him and he may well have voted for it under the circumstances.

    I only care about what these people will do in the future with our present set of issues and problems. On Iraq, the fact is that HRC and Obama are basically in agreement on what to do.

  • I am certain that Obama was a no vote for the kyl-lieberman bill. I am also certain that there is uncertainty as to the real reason why Obama missed that mid-week vote, when 98 other senators were able to make it. Thus, with today’s politicians, I assume that he did not wish to be there but that he could have been there if he wanted to. Obama is no where as calculating as the clinton’s, but he is calculating nonetheless.

  • Hill and Billary both share the same ability to talk out of both sides of their mouths at the same time – and deliver shining lies from both places with that smile on their face that David Geffen remarked on last year.

    Yep, birds of a feather do indeed flock together.

    BTW – for anyone wondering about how “careerist” Hillary is, I wonder what her chances of running for President would have been if she had left and/or divorced Bill in 1998????? I wonder how much “wifely forgivenness” and how much calaculation played in that decision?

  • Michael – you said the Senators were only given 45 – 90 minutes notice of the vote, something you provide no support for; referring to the record of Reid’s remarks from the night before that he didn’t anticipate a vote anytime soon isn’t quite the same thing.

    I think the reason all but 2 Senators were present and voting on Kyl-Lieberman is that is was an important vote. And Obama’s excuse sounds a little too much like “the dog ate my homework.”

    Works nicely with the “so there” that is silent, but very much present, at the end of your comment.

    Oh – and your link to the Congressional Record has timed out.

  • Aren’t those complaining about Obama’s missed K-L vote ignoring the reality that Obama went on the record opposing it that very morning in New Hampshire?

    It strikes me that to make the argument that he didn’t want to take a stand effective he would have had to, you know, not take a stand?

  • I’d really like to hear from someone who can really and acurately recall the events of the day. There were a hugh majority of Senators who “voted for the War”. Why was that? Who introduced the bill and what was Bush’s reaction to the bill itself? It seems to me that a lot of Senators were “mis-lead” on Bush’s intentions. There are plenty of readers here who were for some action to be taken. We now know how ridiculous it’s turned out. The question in my mine is “What would Obama have done if he had been there? These two candidates are so close in Senate record that I think he would have voted just the way Hillary did. I’t awful easy to criticize someone for a vote when you aren’t or weren’t there to be called on to do the same. The only thing we know is the Bush lied and mislead from the start. He’s done that to a whole Nation -not just two Senators.

  • BTW – for anyone wondering about how “careerist” Hillary is, I wonder what her chances of running for President would have been if she had left and/or divorced Bill in 1998????? I wonder how much “wifely forgivenness” and how much calaculation played in that decision?

    Most everyone I know that has actually been through a divorce (including me), or even close, or who has been surprised by the divorce of a close friend or family member, has learned the humility that an outsider never really knows what goes on in someone else’s relationship, and knows not to throw stones in that regard when we all live in glass houses. Assumptions and slanders on someone else’s relationship choices are pretty cheap.

    But then I’ve never noticed humility, the high road, or a lack of presumption to be evidenced by your posts.

  • Clinton = politics of division
    Obama = statesmanship

    These latest events more than ever prompt me to support Obama. We DO NOT need more division. We need hope. We need unity.

    Tell me, which candidate inspires these attributes?

  • We all only learned what a thorough liar and cheat W was AFTER this period of time not before. -Jammer

    Really? It took up until he invaded Iraq to tell that? I must’ve been clarivoyant then because I didn’t believe a single thing the Administration said. Not a one of them. Didn’t we honestly know this after the campaign? After he used the Supreme Court to prevent an honest vote count?

    Kyl-Lieberman is nothing. Its a sense of the senate resolution with no enforcement or funding. -Jammer

    How will this stop Bush? It has never been about funding or enforcement or following the law. It’s a political game, and he was able to get the Democrats to sign on again. He will invade Iran if he wishes with their blessings on paper.

    …Edwards and Obama have said that W can use it to invade Iran. That is wrong, and if they are truly worried about giving W an excuse to invade Iran (their argument against Kyl-Lieberman) they ought to speak the truth and quit stating that Kyl-Lieberman allows him to do so. -Jammer

    Paragraph five of the Kyl-Lieberman amendment states:

    (t)the the United States should designate Iran’s Islamic Revolutionary Guards Corps as a foreign terrorist organization under section 219 of the Immigration and Nationality Act and place the Islamic Revolutionary Guards Corps on the list of Specially Designated Global Terrorists…

    If you don’t think labeling foreign armies ‘terrorist organizations’ is an invitation to war, then I think you’re being naive, and apparently haven’t been paying attention to the Strait of Hormuz news.

    You know what also, I dont give a damn how anyone voted on Iraq. -Jammer

    A lot of people do, myself included. I care a lot about voting records and I believe that one showed impatience, lack of judgment, a hasty desire to appease a nation following a national tragedy, and worst of all, trust in the untrustworthy.

    Can you tell me what Bush had done at any point in his entire life to earn the trust of Congress? And, honestly, if Congress didn’t learn how dishonest Bush was then, and they haven’t learned how dishonest he is yet, then why are we considering electing any of them?

    When will they wise-up and do the right thing?

  • “Aren’t those complaining about Obama’s missed K-L vote ignoring the reality that Obama went on the record opposing it that very morning in New Hampshire?”

    No. Words are just words. Actions are actions. If Obama meant what he said, especially based upon his comments made days/weeks before the vote, then he would have been there for such an important vote. Without voting he can hedge at some point in time if the political winds blow one way or the other. Once you vote, your record is set. Without it, it is incomplete and subject to this sort of questioning or doubt.

    Not that Clinton hasn’t done her own share of “any way the wind blows” political hedging….

  • BillyHillaryTippycanoe and Monica, too.

    Oh save us, please Mr. Obama and Mr. Edwards, from a fate worse than Billary: four more years of some idiot GOP neoconnery in our White House…

  • bubba said “No. Words are just words.”

    Really? What about these words?

    “…ask not what your country can do for you; ask what you can do for your country.” John F. Kennedy

    “A small body of determined spirits fired by an unquenchable faith in their mission can alter the course of history.” Mohandas Gandhi

    “I have a dream that one day on the red hills of Georgia, the sons of former slaves and the sons of former slave owners will be able to sit together at the table of brotherhood.” Martin Luther King Jr.

  • I hope Obama is ready for the Slickwillie Boating he is about to get.

    He should come back with a devastating counterpunch which does indeed draw out the “differences”: the Clinton’s bad faith, their dishonesty and arrogance– the cash for pardons—Marc Rich.

    I still am amazed that the Clinton’s have the ego and arrogance to run again, and why they still have so many supporters.

    Compared to Little George, Clinton’s Presidency was stellar. But compared to a non- deviant, Clinton was uninspired and mediocre at best. At worse, he set the tone for dishonesty and cynicism that in some respects enabled this current crowd to say and do whatever they want…. “because they can”. As Slick Willie said regarding why he had his intern give him oral sex, “because he could” .

    The impeachment was bull, but the Clintons raced to the bottom… “I did not have sex with that women”… “depends on the definition of what the word “is” is, the right wing conspiracy… lying to a grand jury, having sex with a young intern under his employ… a stained dress as evidence, DNA tests.

    Whitewater showed that she destroy documents and used her and his influence for corrupt purposes. Remember the small investment that magically turned into a fortune?

    And did I mention MARC RICH and cash for Pardons?

    I can’t understand why so many are still so enamored. Don’t we deserve a chance at something better?

  • “Really? What about these words?”

    Entirely different context. But you know that.

    But I will aslo point out that those are words spoken by people who had already stepped up and proven their bona fides by actual actions. Each and every one of them.

  • And, if I may add, Obama is a very gifted and talented man, who I think is a pretty good and honest and decent man, who has significant potential, but who has yet to take (any of) the risky steps JFK, Gandhi or MLKJ took. If president, would he? Maybe yes, maybe no. I would hope so. But he simply is not there (JFK’s, Gandhi’s or MLKJ’s level). Yet.

  • Bubba. Good points, but wouldn’t you rather take a chance on a talented, honest and decent man (your words) than commit to another round of Clinton devisiveness? I certainly would. I would rather have Biden, Richardson or Kusinich than Clinton. Given the choice between Clinton and any of the Republican contenders this time around I will gladly choose Clinton, but come on. Your list of adjectives is a perfect example of WHY we should choose Obama over Clinton.

  • Here’s what the idiots in the blogoshere, and Clintonfantasyland don’t get.

    It is about judgement. What Obama said before the war, to an anti-war rally turnedo out to be 100% correct. Why not print that speech when the Clinton Hillbillies open their big mouth.

    If Hillary and Edwards could think like that, there may not have been a war.

    As for voting to end the war. One vote was not going to end it. What would end it would getting sixty votes. Obama understands this, even if blog morons don’t.

    So what he wanted was a bill that would not defund, but set dates to bring them home. That could possibly work. So sorry he is a realist. Kucinich wants to defund the war. What is he doing about it. Where is his bill. Where is his movement.

    So Hillary and her Idiot husband are lying their ass off. And like most of America you believe them.

    Pathetic

  • bubba,

    Actually, in all likelihood it’s unlikely Obama would’ve voted “No” on the Iran resolution considering he earlier co-sponsored the Iranian Counterproliferation Act (S. 970) which used the same inflammatory rhetoric, in which the Revolutionary Guard were referred to as terrorists.

  • Hillary’s defense is the same as Bush’s: “if everyone was wrong then no one was wrong”. Listening to the two of them talk about the run up to this war is like reading Orwell’s “Animal Farm”. And for Hillary to go on MTP yesterday and tell that lie about how this wasn’t really a vote for war but a vote for inspections, blah blah blah is absolutely insulting. Every last one of us knew that that was a vote to go to war and for her to spin this “fairy tale” that it wasn’t is exactly the reason why under no circumstance and any condition will I vote for her in November and I am a lifelong Democrat

  • So, Dresden, you don’t buy Kerry’s story either, told eloquently as he endorsed Obama?

    The reality is that a lot of folks in the beltway bubble felt there was a distinction between voting to give Bush leverage and voting for war. I’ve pressed by own Rep and Sen on it (both Dems) and gotten that same explanation. Sometimes it may be easier to see from out here, with less information — they were being shown all kinds of classified, scary stuff, with Powell’s imprimateur on it, and allegedly that other intel services around the world concurred in. It so happens it was all completely bogus – and for that reason, it was actually easier to reach the right conclusion without it. Were they foolish to trust Bush, an obvious nutcase, extremist and charlatan? sure. but that doesn’t make it a lie.

  • (Biden, Dodd, Harkin, Kerry, Edwards all were on the wrong side of that vote – surely you aren’t saying they are all liars? All non-liberals? All disqualified from your support for President?)

  • Good point, zeitgeist, on #67. You are correct about their votes.

    But it is the tenor of Clinton’s responses during this campaign that stink. If it looks like poo and splats like poo and smells like poo, then it is probably poo. There is something disingenuous about the Clintons. I smell it and so do a lot of other people. Don’t get me wrong, I’ll take Clinton over any of the choices offered by the Republicans, but isn’t it time to pull politics out of the gutter? I think so.

  • I just don’t see how this becomes a winning issue for the Clinton campaign. Am I missing something?

    I couldn’t see how war service/non-service could become a winning issue for Bush over Kerry in 04. Think of the Clinton strategy as swiftboat/Rathergate lite.

  • “Good points, but wouldn’t you rather take a chance on a talented, honest and decent man (your words) than commit to another round of Clinton devisiveness?”

    As most here know, I am supporting the Dem candidate regardless of who it is. My first choice was Dodd simply due to the leadership he showed recently, leadership unmatched by any of the other Senate candidates. Now that he is out I am leaning, fairly strongly, towards Obama, particularly because of his ability to inspire and due to the current group of backers Clinton has around her (McCaouliffe, Penn, etc–although I am positive about her having Bill around). But that does not mean I will overlook his shortcomings or be less than honest about them inthese discussions, and no one else should either whether they have drunk the kool-aid or not. My biggest problem with him is that he has not risked one bit of ‘political capital’ while in the Senate on anything. Not one thing. For example, Katrina victims assistance is something near and dear to my heart, and the issues there really fall primarily on the backs of black americans, so I would think that would have been a tailor-made issue for Obama, the sole black Senator in the US (I think) to step up and truly lead. He has punted for the most part. Clinton has her weak points and strong points–I actually think she is the Dem who will most efficiently and effectively stiffen the spines of the Dems in Congress and be most able to negotiate and work with Dems in Congress. And that is also a very important issue right now.

    But I have no doubt that as president either Obama or Clinton or Edwards (or any of the other Dem candidates) will do the right thing on issues like Katrina assistance, and pretty much most anything else. They will be far and away, any of them, better than anything the GOP tosses up.

    But here on this site I will call out any of them when I think that the full story is not being told or if I feel people are trying to spin a bit too much.

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