Clinton campaign considering ‘potentially incendiary steps’

As far as Barack Obama’s campaign is concerned, superdelegates — party insiders, lawmakers, and establishment players — should not dictate the party’s nominating process, especially if it means overriding the will of voters who participated in the party’s primaries and caucuses.

As far as Hillary Clinton’s campaign is concerned, all bets are off.

Hillary Clinton will take the Democratic nomination even if she does not win the popular vote, but persuades enough superdelegates to vote for her at the convention, her campaign advisers say.

The New York senator, who lost three primaries Tuesday night, now lags slightly behind her rival, Illinois Senator Barack Obama, in the delegate count. She is even further behind in “pledged” delegates, those assigned by virtue of primaries and caucuses.

But Clinton will not concede the race to Obama if he wins a greater number of pledged delegates by the end of the primary season, and will count on the 796 elected officials and party bigwigs to put her over the top, if necessary, said Clinton’s communications director, Howard Wolfson.

Now, I suspect the response from Obama supporters will be less than kind. If Clinton successfully fights for the nomination after coming in second among earned delegates, the talk will no doubt be that she “stole” the race.

But that’s not exactly the situation here. The Democratic National Committee, decades ago, added superdelegates to the process with the express intention of creating a “check” against popular will. Hillary Clinton didn’t create this system, she’s just competing in it. If she can claim the nomination through superdelegates, instead of through actual primaries and caucuses, it makes more sense to blame a flawed process than the candidate and her campaign.

Clinton is, to borrow a phrase, in it to win it. If that means playing hardball, taking what the NYT described today as “potentially incendiary steps,” and overriding voters who participated in primaries and caucuses, she’s within her rights to do so. It may wreak havoc within the party, but it’s a reminder that the party shouldn’t have come up with this process in the first place.

She’s playing by the rules (for the most part; that Florida/Michigan argument is far sketchier). Whether the rules are reasonable is a different argument altogether. Whether Clinton should “do the right thing” and step aside for the candidate who did better in the primaries and caucuses is a different argument altogether. But it’s hardly reasonable to blame Clinton for doing everything possible to win, exploiting every available opportunity. That’s what she’s supposed to do.

That said, the Clinton campaign hasn’t quite nailed down its message. Clinton’s communications director, Howard Wolfson, told reporters yesterday, “We don’t make distinctions between delegates chosen by million of voters in a primary and those chosen between tens of thousands in caucuses.” Around the same time, Clinton’s pollster and senior strategist, Mark Penn, was saying the opposite.

Mrs. Clinton’s aides said they would also argue to superdelegates that they should give less deference to a lead from Mr. Obama because much of that had been built up in states where there were caucuses, which tend to attract far fewer voters than primaries, where Mrs. Clinton has tended to do better than she has done in caucuses.

“I think for superdelegates, the quality of where the win comes from should matter in terms of making a judgment about who might be the best general election candidate,” said Mark Penn, Mrs. Clinton’s senior campaign adviser.

I guess we’re back to asterisks again — some delegates and victories are “better” than others.

The Clinton campaign also touched on a point that’s very hard to resolve. Superdelegates should vote however they want, but if they were inclined to go with the will of the voters, the next question is which voters. If you’re John Kerry, for example, do you back Clinton because she had more support from Dems in Massachusetts, or do you back Obama because he has more support from Dems nationwide? Different superdelegates will reach different conclusions about this, complicating matters further.

One more thing: the AP’s Ron Fournier noted that Clinton, based on current counts, leads Obama among superdelegates, but she shouldn’t take that to the bank.

“I would make the assumption that the … superdelegates she has now are the Clintons’ loyal base. A superdelegate who is uncommitted today is clearly going to wait and see how this plays out. She’s at her zenith now,” said Democratic strategist Jim Duffy, who is not aligned with either campaign. “Whatever political capital or IOUs that exist, she’s already collected.”

Something to consider.

And the righteous, indignant Hillary bashing will start in 3,2,1….

  • In a sense, superdelegates don’t matter. On one hand, if they agree with the majority of pledged delegates, then the question is mute. On the other hand, if they don’t and a candidate with fewer pledged delegates is handed the nomination, then the election is lost and the party will erupt in bitter chaos. I have an impossible time imagining it any other way.

  • Didn’t a superdelegate come on the Colbert Show a couple days ago and claim that they had all met, and agreed to distribute themselves so that whoever wins the pledged delegates will win period?

    And In-FI, why the hell shouldn’t we bash Hillary for this? If the superdelegates usurp the will of the people, the Democratic party will be torn to shreds. We’ll have NO chance in November because so many people will be angry. Do you think Hillary should be immune from facing responsibility if she triggers this?

  • Having been stung once by party machinations in Michigan, it would be very demoralizing to have party “bosses” overrule the popular vote.

    Is Nader running again this year?

  • I think to many people are reading too much into this brohaha about fighting for superdelegates. I had heard this morning on MSNBC Terry Mc stated that if Hillary does as well as expected in TX and OH than this thing will be virtually tied in pledged delegates and if the difference in delegates are as close as they expect then they will go on through PR and then to the convention. So as I understand him it would have to be reasonablly close to take it to the convention. Although I think that if by chance she led in the acutual vote count that she would have a legitimate arguement to go to the convention but if she is behind in actual delegates and popular vote than she will do the right thing.

    I always hear that theres no way she can beat Obama by 20% in Ohio or TX but those are the same ones that brag about Obama doing that in caucus states. She could possibly win by 20 or 30 percent in both of those state. Who knows.

  • My “bashing” is neither righteous nor indignant. It is merely an inquiry:

    If Clinton is willing to go to any lengths—including adopting an overt rejection of the will of the people in order to further her own interests—to gain the nomination, then how might I, and the other citizens of these United States, know that she will not establish yet another “I’m the Decider” type of presidency—based upon secrecy, innuendo, special-interest profiteering, and covert criminality?

    In short—how will we know that she won’t be just another Bu$h?

    “Doing whatever it takes for self” is not a Democratic principle. It never has been, and it never will be.

  • And the righteous, indignant Hillary bashing will start in 3,2,1….

    How about now?

    Up until the past few weeks when Obama’s been pulling ahead I would’ve been perfectly happy with any of the three front-runners as the nominee. As her lead’s been chipped away and the Clinton team took the gloves off, they’ve really been doing a lot to build up ill will against themselves. I do think the superdelegate system is fairly ridiculous, but to see a Democratic nominee fight to overturn the primary process in a way that’s a mirror image of the process by which Bush won the presidency over Gore in 2000 is way beyone the pale. Never mind the effect this would have on voter turnout if the nomination is seen as being robbed.

    That said, I think this is actually a pretty counterproductive strategy anyway; it’s only going to be confirm the worst of the Machiavellian caricatures of the Clintons in the minds of primary voters and increase the odds of her being flat-out beaten with no chance of recovery. Just a really bad move that’s likely to not only increase her chances of losing the nomination but also help to destroy the good will towards the Clinton in the party.

  • If there is only a small difference between delegates won in primaries and caucuses then it would be understandable if super delegates exercised their personal judgment and voted for the candidate they thought was best. If there is a large difference I doubt that the super delegates would go counter to the majority, realizing how damaging it would be to the party. The super delegates certainly don’t want to pick a nominee in such a way that would be so divisive that the nominee would have an added difficulty in the general election.

    It would be even more damaging if Clinton managed to win due to getting the delegates from Michigan and Florida. That would be seen as stealing the nomination and many people, including myself will vote Republican if she does something this dishonest.

  • I’m becoming inured to the behavior of our “party leadership”. Pelosi takes impeachment off the table. Reid predictably caves without a fight. They all enjoy the same corporate gravy train as the Bush Crime Family. Why shouldn’t we expect them to throw out their so-called rules if they should threaten the Clinton dynasty? Self-satisfied pigs.

  • but it’s a reminder that the party shouldn’t have come up with this process in the first place.

    Damn straight. The folks who came up with the superdelegate system were morons, and this is the exact sitution that the superdelegate system makes inevitable.

    If a popular candidate can get enough delegates from the primary system, the supderdelegates are meaningless. So that means that the only time it comes into play is when two candidates are close – meaning that both candidates are relatively popular within their own camps. Which means that if the superdelegates meaningfully shift the election away from either camp, they destroy a good chunk of their general election voting base.

    The superdelegate system is elitist nonsense that relies on a bad assumption that Democrats will vote for any Democrat you stick in front of them when the general election rolls around. The system should be eliminated after this election.

    As for what should be done this election – well, they’ve certainly messed their bed six ways from Sunday this time around, didn’t they? Disenfranchising two states worth of primary voters AND setting up a civil war around superdelegates. It comes back to the old observation that if there’s any way for Democrats to lose an election, they’ll find it. I have no idea what they should do this time around – I’d like to think that Obama and Clinton would come together and figure out a way to settle this for the good of the country, but that’s not how our political system works. So I imagine that, if it comes to convention time, it’ll be an ugly fight and no one will be happy with the outcome.

    The party mucky-mucks better be hoping that Obama pulls off wins in Ohio and Texas big enough to force Clinton to concede at this point. Otherwise it’s going to get stupid. Or at least stupider.

  • I’m not a Clinton supporter, but I can understand why the campaign is saying this now. The Clinton campaign has to reinforce the viability of the campaign in order to continue soliciting contributions. The campaign will almost definitely not have more pledged delegates at the end of the season; the only way they can win, if the pledged delegate numbers are close, is with the superdelegates. Talking about superdelegates now does not mean actually relying on them to overcome a large differential in pledged delegates at the end.

  • Interesting post Steve.

    It is amazing how far in the weeds the Clinton campaign is going to justify their tactics. I agree that this is within the rules, but this is like using archaic rules to basically steal a win.

    How many times in history has this method been used to win a nomination?

    The problem I think they have is that most people will see this move as unprecedented. It will anger a lot of people. Forget about governing with 50% + 1, this will be essentially governing with like 45% + super delegates, or worse.

    What a mess.

  • I’m in FL and I keep hearing this about FL and MI my guess is that not many of you know there is a difference in the 2 First in FL it was an all Rethug establishment that changed the primary date. When the speaker of the house was informed that the DNC would strip all FL delegates he stated that thats the breaks. In MI it was a democratic legislature that voted passed and signed it into law.

    Second, even though noone campaigned in FL 1.8 M democrats voted and all the candidates names were on the ballot. If we vote 10 more times in FL it would still come out 50-51% for Hillary because the majority of Dems in central FL are from NY, NJ, WV and in the south the majority are from NYC and they are mostly Jewish.

    Third I have been hearing from the FDCC that they may hold another primary allowing only those that voted in the 1st one to vote. FL was a closed primary so that would be fair.

  • I can understand why the superdelegates would be available as “a “check” against popular will”, but I can’t understand how they could argue such a “check” would be needed if Obama wins most of the delegates by convention time. Sen. Obama is a main stream candidate who polls better than Hillary does when put up against McCain. If Team Clinton manages to “win” the nomination by getting a majority of the superdelgates to wipe out Obama’s lead then I don’t think I will vote for her in Nov.

  • Lobbying for the superdelegates is fine. Personally, I think it’s an awful feature of the Democratic nominating process — giving us great candidates like Mondale and Dukakis — but it’s the way it is.

    But this bullshit about Michigan and Florida is just ridiculous. They broke the rules, the DNC stripped their delegates, and that’s that. Lots of voters stayed home thinking the contests wouldn’t matter, and not all campaigns campaigned equally there either. To have the nomination come down to those results — which have the biggest asterisk of them all — would be laughably pathetic.

  • I’m from MA and your example of Kerry is not a good one Sen. Kerry is actively working for Sen. Obama, so in this example although majority of primary voters chose Sen. Clinton since both Senators Kennedy and Kerry will vote for the candidate their working for.

  • Honestly, this seems like a silly argument to me Steve. Clinton certainly has it within her power to say that she doesn’t believe that the superdelegates should decide this, if that is what she believes. The fact that the rules are set up that way does not mean that they are reasonable or democratic and she could certainly make that clear if she wanted to. To kind of throw up her hands and put it out there that she is perfectly happy to take a victory in these circumstances strikes me as pretty dishonorable and she most certainly can be blamed for that.

    I think its a moot point after all. I simply don’t believe that the party will allow it to happen but her take on this is quite disturbing to me. I won’t pretend that Clinton is my first choice but through this entire campaign I have felt quite strongly that I would support her if she got the nomination. Hearing this kind of thing from her and her people makes me seriously reconsider that.

    Frankly, I don’t really understand why anyone would even want the nomination in such a circumstance. They would enter the general election in the weakest possible position after having brutally disappointed and demoralized their own base. Clinton, in particular, already facing a steep uphill climb among independents would be adding perhaps an insurmountable challenge to regain the support of a large pool of voters within her own party. This would be political suicide and as unhappy as I would be to see that jackass McCain win, some part of me would feel hopeful that at least some kind of lesson would be learned about respecting the will of the voters within one’s own party.

  • Roughly half of the supers out there have decided to keep their powder dry.

    Why exactly would significantly more than half of them break for a candidate who is behind in pledged delegates?

    If they had a favorite they’d be out there already: they’ll back the winner.

  • Geez people. Using superdelegates is part of the system and taking popular vote as criteria to determine it is ridiculous—these caucus states disenfranchise the opportunity for voting big time — the whole democrat party needs to be thrown in the Potomac–what an asinine way to vote. now let’s talk about Obama’s position on lobbyists to get something done–what a hypocrite–what do you think he is doing when he courts endorsements and superdelegates—-YEPPER quite the change.

  • Very good point, CB. Hillary is playing by the rules the party set up—and set up for exactly this purpose. It would be horrible if it happens that way, and I will blame Clinton for failing to make the “right” choice for the party and country and concede, but she’s NOT “cheating.”

    Now, the hypocrisy comes in regarding Michigan and Florida. Here she wants to set aside the rules that were established and agreed upon, because it suits her need. I’d actully be less comfortable with her taking THAT route to the nomination.

    And I live in Michigan.

  • She didn’t trigger this. Read the article. This sort of shennanigans has been going on in this party for how many elections? That she should possibly benefit from this, is her fortune.
    Do you honestly think that if Jesus, excuse me, I mean Obama, were the recipient of the super delegates in this scenario, instead of Hillary, that HE would step aside?
    Give me an effing break.
    The reality of it is, they are both in this to win. Period. In spite of the actions of the DNC leaders to create the perfect ego driven clusterfuck that is the Democratic primary, one of the two will emerge as the nominee, much to the dismay of the other 50%.
    16 years ago, Bill Clinton was the Second coming. Now it’s Obama. Great. I get that. But please quit trying to paint this man as The Answer To All Our Prayers. The Infallible One. The One Who Floats Above The Fray. Were he in the same position, he would do the exact same thing. And if he didn’t, then he shouldn’t be in the position he’s in, now should he?

    The same machination that gave us the super delegate crap, and the idea that party bigwigs have more of a say than you or I, IS crap, is the same machination that disavowed delegates, or more importantly voters, in Michigan and Florida.
    So you support it, when it helps Obama, but you blast it when it POSSIBLY helps Hillary.
    You can’t cry foul when it hurts, if you don’t cry foul when it helps.

  • I can’t believe Team Clinton would rather have a pyrric victory than lose. I can’t believe they’re willing to say they want to win that bad out loud and on the record. But I’m glad they did it because it now shows for all to see how their minds work. I think many of her faithful supporters will look at this and shudder.

    And I guarantee, if she wins the nomination against the will of the rank and file Democrats, if the DLC hands her the nomination, not US, she’ll lose the general election. All the new voters Obama is drawing into the system will not only fail to show up to vote, they will be turned cynical for a long time. The party will lose their help in all the 2008 downticket elections, and what’s worse is that longer term they could lose many of those voters for the next several decades.

    And as Ron says above, in the 2008 general election, IMO McCain will get a lot of the independents who won’t want to vote for a “cheater” even though her move wouldn’t be cheating, technically.

    In it to win it? I guess it depends on your definition of “win”.

  • It all depends what the meaning of “is” is.

    To refresh memories (Timoth Noah, Slate, Sep 13, 1998):

    Years from now, when we look back on Bill Clinton’s presidency, its defining moment may well be Clinton’s rationalization to the grand jury about why he wasn’t lying when he said to his top aides that with respect to Monica Lewinsky, “there’s nothing going on between us.” How can this be? Here’s what Clinton told the grand jury (according to footnote 1,128 in Starr’s report):

    “It depends on what the meaning of the word ‘is’ is. If the–if he–if ‘is’ means is and never has been, that is not–that is one thing. If it means there is none, that was a completely true statement….Now, if someone had asked me on that day, are you having any kind of sexual relations with Ms. Lewinsky, that is, asked me a question in the present tense, I would have said no. And it would have been completely true.”

    The distinction between “is” and “was” was seized on by the commentariat when Clinton told Jim Lehrer of PBS right after the Lewinsky story broke, “There is no improper relationship.” Chatterbox confesses that at the time he thought all these beltway domes were hyperanalyzing, and in need of a little fresh air. But it turns out they were right: Bill Clinton really is a guy who’s willing to think carefully about “what the meaning of the word ‘is’ is.” This is way beyond slick. Perhaps we should start calling him, “Existential Willie.”

    I guess the Clintons just can’t help themselves. Ordinary trust and civility, playing by the rules, isn’t their way. And isn’t that just a tad like the way the Bush Crime Family plays?

  • Mr. Furious–I respect the first half of your opinion and disagree with the second. Unless the rules and laws allowed for the right to dispute it she again is working within the bounds of a democratic society–not an ‘let’s overthrow the government’.

  • I suppose that the punditry is correct in saying that it would be preferable to have a nominee as early as possible, but one simply can’t escape the irony in the current talk that it would be a “disaster” if the body whose sole purpose is to choose a nominee (the National Convention) actually chose the nominee.

    I mean, why do have the damned things if we are going to fall to pieces if they actually have to decide something? Can’t we use this moment to start a discussion on implementing a rational and regular national nomination procedure? It seems a focus on the superdelgates (as important as it may be at the moment) misses the larger point that the nomination ‘system’ in place is a shambles in most every other respect. To focus on any one of them is a mistake.

  • One of the most common points I hear made about superdelegates is that they are used to break ties in such tight contests. This is hogwash in a two-person race. If they weren’t involved, the winner would only have to secure 1627 pledged delegates to become the nominee, not 2025. In a two person race, an in particular this one, where 3rd parties only managed to win 26 delegates, its almost impossible for someone not to get a majority of the pledged delegates. So the only real purpose of the superdelegates is to blunt the will of the people, as Steve states.

    The superdelegates can serve a useful purpose of putting the front-runner ahead in a protracted 3-way contest. It’s quite easy to imagine neither Clinton or Obama being able to reach 1627 pledged delegates if Edwards had stayed in for Super Tuesday. Thankfully, he didn’t.

    If Barak gets to 1627 on the strength of pledged delegates, then he should proclaim victory, as that would mean him winning the elected delegates even if Florida and Michigan were seated prior to the nomination.

  • Is it just me, or is Howard Wolfson seriously tone deaf? I can’t see this argument helping Clinton. And I can’t see superdelegates overturning even a close election. In fact, after an argument like that, I can’t imagine any high-profile superdelegate committing to Clinton.

  • My bet is that come the next democratic primary season in 2016 that there will be some new rules in place that will make all this seem mute. I think we need a more practical system that limits the superdelegates to limited use. I would like to see a system that 1/2 of the delegates from a state are won the way they are now and the other half to the winner of the state and we would never have this problem again.

    GO DEMS GO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  • People are perfectly willing to have party bosses strip the residents of Florida and Michigan of their right to vote simply because the date of their elections didn’t mesh with Iowa and New Hampshire’s never-ending monopolies, but if “party bosses” (the vast majority of whom are elected officials who will have to face their constituencies after the convention) follow the rules and vote how they see fit, it’s an outrage?

    I want the nomination to go to the winner of the popular vote, whichever of these fine candidates it turns out to be. Right now it looks like Obama. But if things go the other way because of the super-delegates, I will not abandon my party and throw my county to the wolves just because the party chose a candidate in a less than fully democratic way. Like the constitution, the party rules are heavily democratic but also have checks on the will of the people. This is the way it has always been. In fact the current system is vastly more democratic than it has been in the past. Was FDR any less of a great Democratic leader because he was chosen in smoke-filled rooms? If we want to change the system for the next election, we can, but for this election the superdelegates have a role given to them by the party, by virtue of the central role they play in the work of the party. As a private organization the Democratic Party has the right to determine its nominee in the way that it sees fit. This is standard for all democratic political parties throughout the world.

  • I’m no expert on US political history, so I could well be wrong, but wasn’t it part of the original function of the conventions (particularly when no clear winner was evident) to have the active members of the party get together and listen to the candidates make their case as to why they deserve the party’s nomination, and then take a vote on whom to support? It hasn’t always boiled down to cigar-smoking bosses making shady deals in darkened back rooms. If we get to a dead heat in June, why not have a grand discussion?

    (I understand that the conventions have become carefully choreographed political theater to launch the already chosen candidate, precisely because a party divided at the convention is not in good shape for the general election. However, the choreographed kabuki aspect of the conventions is why people pay less and less attention to them nowadays.)

  • She didn’t trigger this. Read the article. This sort of shennanigans has been going on in this party for how many elections?

    I know the superdelegates have been around for a long time. They gave us Mondale. That worked out great, didn’t it? They need to go.

    Do you honestly think that if Jesus, excuse me, I mean Obama, were the recipient of the super delegates in this scenario, instead of Hillary, that HE would step aside?

    If he didn’t, the Democratic party would be just as destroyed, and I would be just as pissed off at him. And yes, I do think he would step aside.

    16 years ago, Bill Clinton was the Second coming. Now it’s Obama. Great. I get that. But please quit trying to paint this man as The Answer To All Our Prayers. The Infallible One. The One Who Floats Above The Fray. Were he in the same position, he would do the exact same thing.

    You are raving, and making baseless accusations.

    The same machination that gave us the super delegate crap, and the idea that party bigwigs have more of a say than you or I, IS crap, is the same machination that disavowed delegates, or more importantly voters, in Michigan and Florida.
    So you support it, when it helps Obama, but you blast it when it POSSIBLY helps Hillary.
    You can’t cry foul when it hurts, if you don’t cry foul when it helps.

    Those states broke the rules, fully knowing the consequences, and were stripped of their delegates. Neither candidate campaigned there. We don’t know WHO it would benefit if Florida/Michigan had played by the rules.

  • Ed Stephan–Again it just amazes me how you people that want to bring up President Clinton’s record has nothing to do with Senator Clinton’s –she is the nominee not him and all the cheap shots vicariously get so old.

  • I’m a retired professor and I just can’t let a teaching moment go. Several people seem to have confused “mute” and “moot”. To save you a trip to your Merriam-Webster,

    mute – unable to speak : lacking the power of speech

    moot – open to question, debatable

  • “…the talk will no doubt be that she “stole” the race. But that’s not exactly the situation here.”

    And that’s not what Obama’s campaign is saying, is it? Don’t let the lack of a quote keep you from writing a pro-Hillary rebuttal…not while you have a perfectly good straw man.

    AFAIK, the Obama campaign understands the rules, but recognizes that the easiest way to avoid all of these nasty scenarios that we’ve been talking about (wherein we won’t have a clear nominee until the convention) is for the superdelegates to throw their support behind the person who emerges with the majority of pledged (earned) delegates.

  • Hillary Clinton cares about herself first and the party LAST.

    If she is able to claim the nomination through superdelegates, even after coming in 2nd in pledged delegates (and maybe the popular vote), this guarantees a President McCain in November.

    Democrats DEPEND on a huge African American turnout to win presidential elections, and Obama has been getting 80% to 90% of the AA vote in state after state; he has their full support. There is no doubt that if Obama wins in pledged delegates but loses the nomination in this way, many AA’s will be staying home in the GE, guaranteeing a democratic loss.

    If the (potentially) first AA nominee loses this thing because of superdelegates, Hillary won’t just lose in November, she will destroy her party. AA’s have already recognized that the symbolical first black president engaged in race-baiting to help his wife (which was a kick in the gut), so theft of the nomination would result in a civil war that would rip the democratic party apart.

    She’s doing this because she thinks AA’s have nowhere to go? They can stay home.

    Also, if Hillary is the nominee, the republicans are considering putting Rice, Powell or another AA on their ticket to get the disaffected AA vote.

  • I live in Florida, and the only one that played by the rules was HRC. Barack Obama went against the rules and aired several commercials in the weeks prior to the primary, and Hillary still beat him handily.

    I’m frankly sick and tired of people who say that our votes shouldn’t count because we broke the rules, the people who decided that the primaries would be held before Feb 5th were mostly republican, Charlie Christ our governor, and his cronies.. the people of this great state did not choose to break the rules, we were simply disenfranchised, period!

    I believe that they should hold new primaries in Michegan and Florida just to prove to the rest of you that it was not a fluke that she won.

    As for the super delegates, they should make their minds up based on the will of the party, not the will of the independents who may or may not vote for a democrat, and also base their vote on the electability of the candidates.

    Like it or not people, Obama is making it very hard for anybody except liberals to like him.. just because he draws big crowds does not make him electable. This is the “age of terror” and the republican smear machine will make sure people are too afraid to vote for somebody that they claim will give the terrorists the ability to attack their children! Don’t think that tactic will work?? What the hell do you think happened in 2004?

  • I’m a retired professor and I just can’t let a teaching moment go. Several people seem to have confused “mute” and “moot”. To save you a trip to your Merriam-Webster,

    mute – unable to speak : lacking the power of speech

    moot – open to question, debatable

    Moot also means having no practical value or theoretical as opposed to actual which is the sense in which I used it and the sense in which I see it most commonly user. I am certain you will also find that definition in whatever dictionary you have handy.

  • I was a Hillary supporter, but the “Jesse Jackson won SC” comments flipped me. That was disgusting. Now Hillary is just driving me further and further away from supporting her. She’s willing to use racism to win. Note Ed Rendell. That dog won’t hunt, but you know what might? Reminding people of Monica’s dress. I don’t want it to go there, but it would be so easy.

  • “they should make their minds up based on the will of the party, not the will of the independents…”

    “Obama is making it very hard for anybody except liberals to like him…”

    Inconsistent much?

  • ref #37 Greg

    Do you recieve updates from the FDC. If so have you been hearing what I have about sending out absentee ballots to all dems that voted on Jan 29th and holding a new primary? Our primary was closed so it would be very easy to do and inexpensive. I still believe that the results would be the same. Hillary 50-51%

  • What baseless accusations am I making Tamalak?

    I read this site almost every day, and the near religious fervor for Obama is palpable. Please, I may be a little slow, but I can read.

    And I agree with you that this super delegate thing needs to go.

    However, I’m going to say this one more time.

    To punish the voters of one of the biggest swing states because of the actions of a handful of REPUBLICAN legislators, is WRONG. PERIOD.
    Unless you live here, which you obviously don’t, you wouldn’t know or understand how the ghost of Jeb Bush still haunts the politics of this state. Those of us down here fighting for a more progressive way of thinking, are getting no help from the party leaders. And obviously from our fellow democrats.
    I believe that if the Rethugs had done this instead of the DNC shooting us, and themselves in the foot, the outrage would be fierce. Since the outcome seems to help one candidate and hurt the other, it’s acceptable.

    Hypocracy at it’s finest.

  • This is the “age of terror” and the republican smear machine will make sure people are too afraid to vote for somebody that they claim will give the terrorists the ability to attack their children! Don’t think that tactic will work??

    What exactly are you arguing here? That Republicans won’t try this tactic on Clinton or that it will somehow be less successful in her case? I see no rational underpinning for that belief. Moreover, the idea that independents will somehow be more comfortable with Clinton has been demonstrated as false numerous times this primary election season. Clinton’s base in election after election has been base democrats. Obama has been doing what he is doing in large part, although not totally, on the basis of a huge independent swing in his favor. In that arena, it is not even close. In fact, one of Clinton’s complaints has been that Obama is not winning democrats so much as he is winning independents and that democrats ought to pay more attention to that trend.

    So frankly, I have no idea what you are talking about.

  • This is yet another sign of why Obama is the better candidate, because as L Boom and others suggest, this is counter-productive and makes Hillary look worse. Instead of showing her as being optimistic, it looks scheming and desperate, which is already the vibe people are getting from her. A better idea would be to take a “We’ll cross that bridge when it comes” approach, while secretly working back-channels to make it happen. But the fact that Hillary is “in it to win it” highlights one of her biggest negatives; that she just wants to win, everything else be damned.

    But it’s not just this issue: Hillary continues to play the short-game on everything. Like the attack ad we saw yesterday where she slams Obama for (gasp!) not wanting another debate. Attack ads are always risky and if you’re going to use one, you better damn well have something that will outrage people. I can’t imagine anyone but a diehard Clinton supporter getting outraged by Obama not debating; and suspect even that outrage might be less than sincere. All he has to do is to say that he’d rather spend time talking to the people, not Hillary; which I think is what he HAS said. And all the same, as I suggested yesterday, even if she beats him in a debate, he still wins. And that’s because his biggest goal is getting people to hear him speak so they connect that name with his face. And so even if she wins, she loses. The voters already know who she is; by debating, she’s helping them know who he is too.

    But we see this again and again with her campaign. While Obama has stuck to his fundimentals throughout his campaign, the Clinton campaign continues to shift tactics and fight with itself on how to beat this “lightweight” opponent who they totally underestimated despite the fact that he was a newbie politician who was given the freaking keynote address at the 2004 Democratic Convention. And that isn’t to mention that they gave so little thought to a post-Super Tuesday campaign that they ended up spending all their money before it came and STILL got trounced unexpectedly in Iowa.

    I could go on and on. Again, Hillary isn’t a bad candidate, but it’s obvious that Barack is better. He doesn’t have to keep shifting tactics; often shooting himself in the foot with every move. But instead he keeps moving ahead with his message of hope and people are listening. And that’s why I think this is a non-issue. The worse things look for Hillary, the more she’s going to make mistakes that hurt her with voters, and she won’t get enough votes in Ohio and Texas to make any of this matter. She generally leads in the polls before he moves in, and with repeated headlines showing his success, people will move even faster in his direction. We can hope, anyway.

  • In-FI,

    The baseless accusation you are making is that Obama would make the same destructive, stupid, selfish move as Hillary is considering, if he were in the same position as her.

    I don’t go for the childish assumption that entering politics somehow magically transforms you into the scum of the earth. Yes, there are corrupting forces in politics – many. But I have the basic decency to start out assuming that a candidate will act honorably until they prove me wrong.

    I started out assuming Hillary and Obama were both honorable. I supported both of them. Then Hillary started LYING about Obama’s positions in the run up to SC, trying to SEAT delegates in Michigan when Obama’s WASN’T EVEN ON THE BALLOT there, and now she is openly pondering this tactic that would destroy the Democratic party.

    Hillary proved my gentleman’s assumption about her wrong.

    Obama hasn’t.

    That’s why I support Obama.

    I read this site almost every day, and the near religious fervor for Obama is palpable. Please, I may be a little slow, but I can read.

    It’s a heavily pro-Obama site, it’s true. I don’t see much religious fervor here, though. Most of us are willing to defend our positions on their merits and be civil to Hillary supporters, as long as they’re civil in return.

    If you want to see religious fervor, go to hillaryis44.com

    To punish the voters of one of the biggest swing states because of the actions of a handful of REPUBLICAN legislators, is WRONG. PERIOD.
    Unless you live here, which you obviously don’t, you wouldn’t know or understand how the ghost of Jeb Bush still haunts the politics of this state. Those of us down here fighting for a more progressive way of thinking, are getting no help from the party leaders. And obviously from our fellow democrats.
    I believe that if the Rethugs had done this instead of the DNC shooting us, and themselves in the foot, the outrage would be fierce. Since the outcome seems to help one candidate and hurt the other, it’s acceptable.

    I was always skeptical of the logic and sense of the draconian measure the Dems are using to “keep the states in line”. For one thing, why aren’t Iowa/New Hampshire given the same rules? Have they been “grandfathered” just because they were there first? That doesn’t sit right with me at all.

    It’s also stupid from a strategic perspective. We need Michigan and Florida in the general election, and this is not going to help turnout, at all. It seems like cutting off your nose to spite your face to me.

    Now that you tell me it wasn’t even the Democrats who decided to move up the primaries, I definitely agree it was wrong. A very stupid move by the DLC.

    However, it IS the rules we agreed to play by, at least for this year. Like it or not, the delegates have been stripped from those two states, and the superdelegates are here and in force. The best we can do is try our best to minimize the destructive impact of both of these stupid features. I’m not sure how to minimize the damage done by stripping the delegates form the two states without breaking the rules. But stopping the superdelegates from being a problem is simple: stop them from overturning the rule of the pledged delegates by having them proportion themselves evenly (or in favor of the winner). Hillary wants to take the destructive measure of hoarding them for herself, despite the damage this would do to the Democrats.

    That’s why I’m pissed at her.

  • In-FL — the problem with seating the Florida and Michigan delegates at this point is that it’s changing the rules after the game is already played. Heck, Edwards and Obama removed their names from the ballot in Michigan, and would have done so in Florida had it not been too late by the time the decision was made.

    Frankly, I agree that it was a bad idea to not recognize the delegations in the first place. But that was the Party decision, and all of the players agreed to it. To go back now and say that the delegates need to be seated is just not playing fair.

    Just to be fair, though, let’s take the honesty test: Would Hillary be stumping for their inclusion had she not won them? If yes, then the cause is legitimate. If no (and, I highly suspect that the answer is “no”), then her argument is far weaker.

  • In-Fl @42 – You’re right that Florida voters got punished. And that includes the people who didn’t get to hear Obama directly. Hillary was the name-recognition, default candidate who people select when they haven’t heard of Obama. And it always hurts a candidate if they can’t campaign. Plus, we have to consider the many voters who didn’t show up because they assumed their votes didn’t count. Is it really fair to allow some Floridians their vote, while these others are still denied theirs?

    It really sucks that this happened and I consider it to have been a huge mistake by the DNC who should have handled it better, but the fact is the voters of Florida and Michigan were deprived of a real election. Not because they don’t get their delegates, but because they weren’t allowed to see the candidates first-hand. And if you don’t think that’s a problem, perhaps we could agree to seat FL and MI delegates, in return for not allowing Hillary to campaign in Texas and taking her name off the ballot in Ohio. I sort of doubt she’ll agree to that, as she understands how important it is to campaign.

    I’m sorry, but short of a re-do (which almost all Hillary people reject), that just wasn’t a real election. Real elections require that candidates be allowed to take their message to the people, and that just didn’t happen in either of these states; particularly not in Michigan, where they couldn’t vote for Obama at all. It wasn’t the voters fault, but all the same, those weren’t proper elections.

    BTW, appealing to our hatred of Republicans and Jeb Bush is really kind of insulting. I understand what you’re trying to do, but we don’t respond well to those kind of dog whistles. It no longer matters why it happened; all that matters is that it happened. And it’s too late to re-enfranchise some people and not others.

  • This should be a time of building the Democratic party in the face of the last 20 years of Republican misgoverning, but this type of selfishness will tear the Party apart. I’m sure Rove had a hearty chuckle when he read this because he knows that going against the will of the people would destroy the Democratic Party and hand the victory to the GOP in November.

    I honestly can’t see the superdelegates being this naive. Why, when there is already so much venom aimed at Senator Clinton would she so willingly invite more?

    I’m beginning to think she cares more about her personal accomplishment than the good of the country.

    Ed Stephan–Again it just amazes me how you people that want to bring up President Clinton’s record has nothing to do with Senator Clinton’s –she is the nominee not him and all the cheap shots vicariously get so old. -joey

    Actually, Hillary made it fair game by claiming his accomplishments and tenure as experience. She can’t have it both ways.

    I’m frankly sick and tired of people who say that our votes shouldn’t count because we broke the rules, the people who decided that the primaries would be held before Feb 5th were mostly republican, Charlie Christ our governor, and his cronies.. the people of this great state did not choose to break the rules, we were simply disenfranchised, period! -Greg

    You broke the rules, your votes shouldn’t count. Sick of me yet? Because I make the argument all of the time. Want to do something about the people who broke the rules? Vote them out. The Parties are allowed to conduct their primaries how they see fit and they striped Florida of their delegates. You were disfranchised, but that doesn’t mean it was fairly done.

    No matter how many times you say it, Florida and Michigan cannot afford or organize new primaries in time, especially in Florida because of the people you have in charge.

    Include the votes now and you’ll have nothing but leap frogging chaos during the next primary season. Rules are made to maintain order.

    As for the super delegates, they should make their minds up based on the will of the party… -Greg

    How do you propose they determine the ‘will of the party,’ ask you personally? Or should they hold a series of votes and caucuses?

    Why are you so keen on pushing away independents and moderates? Are you addicted to losing?

    This is the “age of terror” and the republican smear machine will make sure people are too afraid… -Greg

    OH NO! THE AGE OF TERROR! RUN AWAY!

    Haha, seriously, the Democrats beat the Republicans on the issue of security now. Both Hillary and Obama would love to have the security debate with McNugget. They’d both destroy him.

    Seriously, though, the baseless concern trolling is hilarious. Keep it coming.

  • The twisted logic of the corporate-financed Clinton machine is that superdelegates count, but caucuses don’t. Fear not, the corporate-owned national media will try to win the March 4 primaries in Ohio and Texas for Hillary Clinton. Her biggest problem is Bill Clinton’s ego. He wants her to have 8 years in the White House so he can be the center of attention again. Does anybody really think she won the New Hampshire primary? Dennis Kucinich asked for a recount and suddenly developed competition for his House seat. The Clintons have a hard time selling the idea that they give us solutions. They blew healthcare reform in the 1990s, lost Congress for the Democrats in 1994, lost the White House for Democrats in 2000, stood by while Wall Street created the tech bubble and accounting scandals, and got us mired in Bosnia and Kosovo.

  • This is all sounding so familiar. Let, me see, where have I heard all this before…Oh yes, our President also stole a race. He put his desires before the will of the people also, and look where that got us. Be careful Hillary, I don’t think that behavior linking you to the likes of him will help you or us democrats. Let behavior like this belong to the other party.

  • I wasn’t appealing to your hatred of Republicans and Jeb Bush.

    I was saying that, there was no outrage from the rest of the Democratic party. Threre was only a feeling of “Oh well” . It was as if everything was hunky dory because that came from the party leaders. The fighting against shrub’s admin because of voter suppresion in 2000, was rightly loud and indignant. No such outcry here. No attempt at some sort of compromise. And look at the mess now.

    You want to blame someone, blame Howard Dean and Terry Mc. Thern all this “what if” would be moot. Not mute. : )

  • I was always skeptical of the logic and sense of the draconian measure the Dems are using to “keep the states in line”. For one thing, why aren’t Iowa/New Hampshire given the same rules? Have they been “grandfathered” just because they were there first? That doesn’t sit right with me at all. -Tamalak

    I don’t agree with the rules or the way the primary is ran at all, but Florida and Michigan went about protesting them the wrong way. Were they to go unpunished, we’d be having the 2012 primary in October 2008 as states leapfrogged each other to be first.

    The rule was amended in 2006 to include South Carolina and Nevada. Along with Iowa and New Hampshire, they were the only states permitted to hold their events prior to February 5th.

    I think it is terribly demoralizing for Michigan and Florida voters, but they continue to persist in the myth that they had no say in it. They are, however, responsible for the officials they elect, and if they have disappointed you, un-employ them at the next opportunity. That’s how our government works.

    Unfortunately it does nothing for the situation now, which frankly can only be resolved by seating the delegates after a clear winner emerges. If they have any impact on the process, it will fracture the party and no state will respect the authority of the DNC again.

    Again, we keep treating this like it is some inherent right we have, but the Democratic party is in no way beholden to us to pick the candidate. No one can tell you your vote won’t count in November but this is an entirely different story.

  • LOL. Nothing from The Bulletin will ever be an interesting read unless one is particularly interested in dishonest hack work.

  • Alrighty that is it–I am convinced—I now am going to vote Republican because it is winner takes all—

  • The fighting against shrub’s admin because of voter suppresion in 2000, was rightly loud and indignant. No such outcry here. -In-Fl

    As noted above, but here again for reiteration: supressing someones right to vote is not the same as consequences incurred breaking the rules in candidate selection. Helping the Democrats select a candidate is not a right afforded to you; you have no claim to it.

    They could hold three legged sack races on consecutive Sundays until a clear winner emerges if they wanted to.

    There is also a clear difference between applying the consequences of breaking the rules to an entire state and trying to make it harder for specific groups of people to vote, like several examples out of Nevada (trying to eliminate at large precincts, locking the doors at 11:30 AM instead of noon).

    Your analogy doesn’t hold.

  • doubtful,

    I understand and agree with the intention behind the rules, but it doesn’t make sense to give Iowa/NH/SC/Nevada a free pass while the others have to crowd behind the hard Feb 5 barrier.

    And there are ways to make this less destructively harsh while still preventing 4-year-long primaries. Instead of the “hard” feb 5. ceiling, why not a soft one, make it so that delegates are reduced a little the further ahead of Feb 5 you hold your primary? So Iowa can stay where they are if they like, but they’ll have 20% fewer delegates. And Florida can skip ahead to wherever it was and they’ll have 5% fewer. There would be a little grousing but not an angry feeling of DISENFRANCHISEMENT this way. Why use a steel leash when you can use a leather leash? The way the party went about this is just ham-handed and reproachful.

  • Public Desperation is never, ever pretty, not when the panther sweat is so strong it seeps through the shirt in the armpits and stains the jacket. Not only that, but it really stinks.

    If this happens, I am through with the Democratic Party. No more votes from me for any of the revealed scum. That the corporate pigs and their Washington trough-mates can think this proves just how much the Clintons are willing to do anything, trash anything, wreck everything, if they see some personal advantage in it. Just like they wrecked the party 14 years ago.

    If the Obama campaign was reported thinking like this, I would be equally outraged.

    These two slimy scumballs are the worst thing that ever happened to the Democratic Party. I saw the two of them for the conniving pissants they are back in 1992, and nothing has ever changed.

  • Come on doubtful, it would be quite easy to get the votes of actual registered democrats in all of the states, including Florida and Michegan, and tally them up and figure out what the popular vote was. Florida has closed primaries, so it’s even easier here to see how much better she did.

    Here’s some info for you, there were nearly as many votes cast in FL for Democrats as Republicans, simply because there was another very important vote on the ballot regarding property tax reform, so people showed up in mass numbers despite being told it wouldn’t count.. do you suppose those people voted for Clinton just because they recognized the name and didn’t get to see Barack Obama spew the same rhetoric in person that they’ve seen over and over again on TV? That’s equivelent to you saying that we are just plain stupid, almost as ignorant as your comment that it’s the people’s fault that our delegates were stripped.

    And if Michegan voters wanted to show how much they supported ANY other candidate besides Clinton, why didn’t more of them vote undecided? I suppose if they had, you would be singing another tune altogether.

    And, in case you haven’t noticed, McCain is already going after Obama for having the most liberal voting record in the Senate.. NO democrat is going to win in the red states, I guarantee, no matter how many people there voted for Obama. The only chance of winning in November is winning big swing states, LIKE FLORIDA YOU POMPOUS ASS!

  • Steve is exactly right. I never got too mad at Fl bc I think if you can’t win by more than a few percent, the winner is determined by who’s better in a knife fight. (SCOTUS is supposed to be above partisanship). Hillary might have won Fl. And it’s analogous to my reasons for seating Fl delegates — we all agreed to the rules. You can’t change them bc you don’t like the winner.

    But it’s rare to leave a knife fight unbloodied, and the Party’s interest is to win.Dean needs to get an unbrockered convention.

  • I’m one of those “obamacans” (sp?) who live in Texas and has contributed to his campaign and will vote for him in the March primary. If the Clintons were to somehow “steal” the nomination from Obama, my vote reluctantly will go to McCain. It’s plain and simple.
    These people will do anything to win.

  • That’s equivelent to you saying that we are just plain stupid, almost as ignorant as your comment that it’s the people’s fault that our delegates were stripped.

    Dude. On Feb 3rd Clinton was polling 2% ahead of Obama in Delaware. That same day Obama had a huge rally that emptied Wilmington, drawing 20,000 people. I was in that rally and I saw the top of Obama’s forehead. Once. Briefly.

    Two days later, Obama won Delaware by 9%. His appearance gave him a 11% boost. Do you think Delawarians are plain stupid? WE never voted for Bush.

    You see this pattern over and over again across the country. When states are directly, personally exposed to Obama’s message, they go for him.

  • ref #54

    The state sets the primary date not the party in FL. It was rushed through the legislature led and controlled by republicans and signed by a republican governor. When the Speaker of the House was ask about the DNC stripping all delegates from FL he responded thats the breaks. So please quit saying that it was the FL Dem Party that was responsible for this.

    The main reason primary day was moved up was because there was a Property Tax amendment on the ballot pushed by the rethugs and they didn’t want the opposition to have a say on it. So they rammed up the primary to limit oposition. And thats the story here in FL.

  • Ron Chusid said: That would be seen as stealing the nomination and many people, including myself will vote Republican if she does something this dishonest.

    I agree. And I have never ever voted for a Republican in 44 years of voting.

    If they do this, the corporate scum wing of the Democratic Party needs to be destroyed.

  • I haven’t read all the comments, just adding my $.02. Disclaimer, I’m an Obama supporter, trying hard to be fair minded.

    1) Superdelegates are part of the rules. No harm in Hillary trying to win the nomination using them as part of her strategy.

    2) Superdelegates should consider the potential damage to their party if Obama wins a very clear advantage in primaries & caucuses, but loses the nomination based on “party insiders”. That’s really their concern (and the party pooh-bahs) more so than Hillary’s. The rules were clear at the outset of the process. Obama supporters may be disappointed and distrustful of what they thought was their party. I would argue the long term loss would outweigh the short term gain for Hillary, but think people of good faith can disagree here.

    3) If Hillary wins based on seating MI and FL delegates, screw her. I would be very hard pressed to vote for her in that circumstance, even knowing how much damage a McCain presidency would cause.

    4) I do find Hillary’s “asterisk” strategy very annoying.

  • Come on doubtful, it would be quite easy to get the votes of actual registered democrats in all of the states, including Florida and Michegan, and tally them up and figure out what the popular vote was. -Greg

    The problem is you have to get Florida’s Republican controlled state government to agree to pay for it and allow it, and I think you underestimate just what an undertaking that would be. Who will pay for it? When will you have it? There are so many questions and logistical concerns.

    And to re-run it again at this point is unfair to candidates who were in the race during the first primary and no longer on it, like John Edwards. Add that to the many other valid reasons I’ve given in this comments section.

    That’s equivelent to you saying that we are just plain stupid, almost as ignorant as your comment that it’s the people’s fault that our delegates were stripped. -Greg

    Hey, we get the government we deserve. Do you think I like having a presidential candidate who authorized the war in Iraq? Do you think I like the FISA bill with telecom immunity? Kyl-Lieberman? I don’t, but I can’t do anything about it now other than write letters. I sure as hell can do my part to get those bums voted out when the time comes. I don’t think it is ignorant of me to understand the way our government works, but whatever floats your boat.

    And, in case you haven’t noticed, McCain is already going after Obama for having the most liberal voting record in the Senate. -Greg

    More concern trolling from Greg. We all know and recognize that Hillary and Obama will both get shit slung their direction in the general. We all know and recognize it will be lies. I think we do ourselves a disservice when we allow that to motivate us.

    The only chance of winning in November is winning big swing states, LIKE FLORIDA YOU POMPOUS ASS! -Greg

    I’m sorry, are you calling me or Obama a pompous ass? I’m inclined to think you meant me. I’ll wear your insult proudly. What a fantastic rebuttal, by the way.

  • do you suppose those people voted for Clinton just because they recognized the name and didn’t get to see Barack Obama spew the same rhetoric in person that they’ve seen over and over again on TV? That’s equivelent to you saying that we are just plain stupid, almost as ignorant as your comment that it’s the people’s fault that our delegates were stripped.

    No its equivalent to saying that campaigns matter. Campaigns spend a lot of time and money in States based upon the assumption that it matters that they do so. You are free to try and argue to them that they are wasting their money and effort. Good luck with that.

    In reality however, a vote without a campaign is not an election, its a straw poll. It has only slightly more legitimacy than an internet poll.

    And if Michegan (sic) voters wanted to show how much they supported ANY other candidate besides Clinton, why didn’t more of them vote undecided? I suppose if they had, you would be singing another tune altogether.

    Of course 37% of voters – more than a third – in Michigan did choose uncommitted. Thats pretty remarkable. I am not sure how much more you would need to get the message.

  • So please quit saying that it was the FL Dem Party that was responsible for this. -Jim

    Show me once where I said that? I never have, so stop being disingenuous and putting words into my mouth. I said that, because of the way government works, the Florida voters are partially to blame because they are responsible for their state government and I went on to suggest that, despite you not being able to do anything about it now, you can vote the bums out at you nearest convenience.

    Gah, how I hate repeating myself.

    Man, this is all going to get even more interesting than it already has been. -JRS Jr

    Is it just me, or have the Clinton supporters clearly lost their minds?

  • As I see it Obama is buy gathering superdelegates too. And nobody is asking him if he is willing to use them if he gets fewer regular delegates than Hillary. Why is this even a Clinton story?

  • I think everyone should take a chill pill and wait till the votes come in. Theres still almost 20 states to vote can we all just relax and wiat for the voting to finish.

    My vote will be very simple in November if FL gets seated I will vote for our nominee if not I will only vote on the issues on the ballot and local elections. I belong to a local chapter of democrats and that was our straw poll vote even before the Iowa caucus and as of now we are sticking to it. We are only about 100 strong and we voted for different candidates in the primary. By the way I think we voted approx O – 38, H – 32 and E- 30 and some for others.

  • In Florida,
    If the Florida debacle was entirely a product of Republicans screwing with Democratic procedures, I’d agree with you. However, my understanding is that the problematic scheduling was begun by the Governor and his Republican buddies, but by the end a majority of Florida Democratic state politicians had signed on to the early primary. Please correct me if I’m wrong here, because otherwise it looks like your problem is with your own people.

    I’m not defending the overall primary process, which is a mess. However, the clear immediate result of letting Florida set an early date without being penalized is that we’ll end up with a very early and nearly national Super Tuesday, probably well before the Christmas preceding the election. That’s no solution.

    Greg, I disagree that the Florida results have any decipherable meaning. If a vote is to have meaning, all the candidates should be able to compaign freely, and voters should be clear that their votes and their participation will be counted.

    I’d be sorry to see Florida democrats take out their understandable distress by withholding their participation in the general election, but (Carl Hiassen stories notwithstanding), I don’t think they are that stupid. It would make even less sense for them to vote Republican, thereby even more directly rewarding the party that contributed so heavily to causing this mess.

  • FYI, the biggest swing states by # of electoral votes in the presidential election

    Florida – 27
    Pennsylvania – 21
    Ohio – 20
    Michegan – 17

    Florida’s 27 electoral votes went to Bush in 2004, do you see now how important it is to have somebody who is not percieved as too liberal in a close election?

  • Someone Said “I do think the superdelegate system is fairly ridiculous, but to see a Democratic nominee fight to overturn the primary process in a way that’s a mirror image of the process by which Bush won the presidency over Gore in 2000 is way beyone the pale. Never mind the effect this would have on voter turnout if the nomination is seen as being robbed.”

    How is this in any way similar to what happened in 2000, when Bush won the Presidential Election by obtaining the necessary number of Electoral votes? Bush won the necessary number of electoral college votes by winning in those states that had the correct number of electoral college voters to put him over the number needed to win. Hillary (as long as she does not attempt to get FL and MI counted) appears to be attempting to win her party’s nomination by following the rules as they are specified for all to run by. These super delegates are not, by the rules, required to vote in any manner other then for whom they feel would be best. Whatever thoughts goes into their making that decission is possibly as variable as the number of delegates. This is the PRIMARY PROCESS as it is currently set up.
    People need to stop saying someone has stolen an election every time their candidate does not win.

  • I’m one of those “obamacans” (sp?) who live in Texas and has contributed to his campaign and will vote for him in the March primary.

    Anthony – Remember, it’s not just a primary. You need to vote in the caucus too later that night (be there by 7 PM). I don’t quite understand why we get to vote for our nominee twice, but that’s the system here in Texas. And make sure to stick around, to ensure that nothing shady happens after most people leave. I don’t know about you, but I don’t think I’ve ever voted in a primary before (in Texas, it never really mattered before); and I didn’t know that we caucused at all. But I’m going to learn as much as I can before March. This is all so exciting.

    Go Obama!

  • As I see it Obama is buy gathering superdelegates too. And nobody is asking him if he is willing to use them if he gets fewer regular delegates than Hillary. Why is this even a Clinton story?

    “They” did, in fact, ask him and his response was that superdelegates ought to apportion themselves based upon the results in their states. Not perhaps the most precise answer but also not the kind of execrable response Clinton and her people are giving on this issue.

  • Second, even though noone campaigned in FL 1.8 M democrats voted and all the candidates names were on the ballot.

    Jim, let’s not be disingenuous here.

    We had a very huge property amendment on the ballot, and that is a lot of the reason why turnout was so high. The FDC did absolutley nothing to encourage voter turnout whatsoever.

    Despite the fact that all the candidates names were on the ballot, you cannot deny the power of name recognition. Obama had no opportunity to campaign or get his message out to voters here, so when people who heard nothing from any Democratic candidate see a Clinton on the ballot, it shouldn’t come as a shock they would vote for her (remember the movie The Distinguished Gentleman).

    The results were totally invalid, and no reasonable person would infer any kind of result from them. If we were to hold another primary or caucus with the candidates given the opportunity to reach out to voters, I do not think Hillary would do nearly as well. I would predict 52 – 46 in favor of Obama.

  • It’s okay to steal from this guy, because he was so stupid as to leave his door unlocked!

    Look, if she wants to play by the rules and take it by hook or crook, fine. But, if she is selected by the superdelegates over the popular vote and delegate count, well, she’ll have to be elected without my vote. Maybe she can steal the general election too.

  • ref 77

    By Obamas reasoning he would lose the supers. The majority of the states he has won only have 4 superdelegates. That wouldn’t be my stand if I were him. Just saying. CA has more supers than MT, KS, WY, AK, ME, DE, SC, AL, GA and Iowa put together. He should be careful of what he wishes for.

  • Another thing.. caucuses don’t get quite the turnout that primaries do, so we may never know the will of the people in those states who hold caucuses.. simply put, around 50k people vs. hundreds of thousands or a million. Besides that, if your candidate doesn’t have enough support, your votes don’t count ?!?!?!

    Caucuses are entirely archaic, and irrelevant. Primaries are the closest thing to finding out what the majority is.

  • So Obama folks don’t want FL delegates seated because that’s against the party rules. Even though the FL people didn’t do any wrong. But they like to see the super delegates are vote with the pledged delegates. Hum. sounds like double standard to me.

    Rules are rules and abide by it. Didn’t Gore win the popular vote?

  • If Obama leads in pledged delegates coming into the convention, he will also lead in super delegates by the first ballot. Florida and Michigan will not be seated. Someone (Howard Dean?) will have a “come to Jesus” talk with Hillary and Bill, she will bow out and endorse Obama. While we may have our share of jerks, the entire Democratic party wouldn’t be stupid enough to lose the White House over a family quarrel. I just can’t believe cooler heads wouldn’t prevail. As for Obama not being able to win red states, my 87 year-old mother who lives in Virginia hasn’t voted for a Democrat since the 1950s — but she will vote for Obama.

  • Bush won the necessary number of electoral college votes by winning in those states that had the correct number of electoral college voters to put him over the number needed to win.

    Of course, you know quite well that this is very much in dispute particularly with respect to Florida. So I am not sure what point you are trying to make here by simply ignoring that this issue is in dispute.

    These super delegates are not, by the rules, required to vote in any manner other then for whom they feel would be best. Whatever thoughts goes into their making that decission is possibly as variable as the number of delegates. This is the PRIMARY PROCESS as it is currently set up.
    People need to stop saying someone has stolen an election every time their candidate does not win.

    Again, the fact that a system is set up in a certain way does not make it fair or reasonable. The fact that the rules are the rules are irrelevant to this debate. The issue is what Clinton thinks of the rules. If she is happy to have party insiders overrule the results from the voters. If she is perfectly content to tell all those people that came out to vote that the result of their voting should be outweighed by the votes of a few party insiders, then it tells me something important about her respect for democracy.

    Again, I believe this is all moot. I don’t think it is very likely that this will happen but the fact that she seems to feel perfectly comfortable with this possibility is deeply disturbing to me and I don’t think I could support such a person for election.

  • How is this in any way similar to what happened in 2000, when Bush won the Presidential Election by obtaining the necessary number of Electoral votes? -Carlos Morales

    He obtained those electoral votes through ‘superdelegates’, specifically 7 very ‘supreme’ ‘superdelegates.’

    Another thing.. caucuses don’t get quite the turnout that primaries do, so we may never know the will of the people in those states who hold caucuses. -Greg

    That is one of the ‘asterisks’ the Clinton campaign is pushing.

    I don’t like the caucusing system either, but we can’t just say they don’t count now. We can’t change the rules in the middle of the game. If you want to lobby for that in the off season, then I’ll be right there with you.

    I prefer an all mail in balloting system with a huge window, at least two months. All the results are given at once, no exit polling. The media effect would be reduced, and people could fill in their ballots at their leisure.

    Oregon is a good model of this type of voting.

  • By Obamas reasoning he would lose the supers. The majority of the states he has won only have 4 superdelegates. That wouldn’t be my stand if I were him. Just saying. CA has more supers than MT, KS, WY, AK, ME, DE, SC, AL, GA and Iowa put together. He should be careful of what he wishes for.

    He didn’t wish for anything and he didn’t provide some detailed structure for the apportionment of superdelegates. It was an off the cuff response that at least attempted to place the superdelegate system within a more democratic framework. In that, at least in my estimation, his response beats Clinton’s by a mile.

  • So Obama folks don’t want FL delegates seated because that’s against the party rules. Even though the FL people didn’t do any wrong.

    This is a bogus argument that Clinton is trying to protect the votes of the people of Florida and Michigan. If this is the real goal, there are other solutions.

    We could have a repeat vote. Obama has supported this while Clinton has opposed it. Clinton is concerned with getting more votes, not with any form of justice.

    If the concern is to allow Michigan and Florida to have delegates seated at the convention, the easiest and fairest way to is to give both Obama and Clinton half the delegates from each state. There is no way to know how the vote would turn out if there had been real primaries where all the candidates were on the ballot and all campaigned. If we just split the delegates between the two there will at least be delegations from both states seated, but it won’t affect the outcome of the nomination battle.

  • I personally don’t think the superdelegates will matter all that much if there’s a clear majority for one candidate or the other. But for Hillary to win based on FL and, especially, MI, where Obama wasn’t even on the ballot, is a recipe for a November loss. If it’s so important for these states’ “voices to be heard,” Hillary should have been fighting for them the entire time, not after she won them. The fact that she’s considering winning this way and just assuming we’ll all come out for her in the general should give us great pause.I’d be saying the exact same thing if Obama were doing it.

  • So Obama folks don’t want FL delegates seated because that’s against the party rules. Even though the FL people didn’t do any wrong. But they like to see the super delegates are vote with the pledged delegates. Hum. sounds like double standard to me.

    I don’t know what Obama folks you are talking about but I for one don’t want to see the FL and MI voters seated (I am from Florida by the way) because I believe, given the decision of the party, that any results from those states do not reflect a fair democratic process. I wish the party had acted differently but here we are and seating the delegate won’t unshit the bed. Similarly, I am opposed to the superdelegates deciding the result of this primary because it would ential overturning a democratic result. So no, no double standard here. I am not a legal positivist. I merely want to see the fairest result that we can achieve under the circumstances we have created.

  • I will remind you all once again Florida voted. Twicw as many voted in 08 than in 04. We had a very important ballot amendment on the ballot and I would dare say had it not been for that the voter turnout would have been half that amount. Every candidate had teams working in FL on the local level and all who would have voted voted. If they couldn’t make time on Jan 29th they would not make time on any other day. So Florida did vote and all candidates were on the ballot and all had an equal chance to be heard. The Obama campaign ran ads in all of northern FL where as the others didn’t run any ads. Even Edwards complained about it at the time.

    A lot of Obama supporters are making it hard for people like me to support him if he is the nominee and believe me he will need FL to win

  • Thanks for the info Doc. Will stick around for the caucus. As you can tell I never voted in a Primary and NEVER voted for a Democratic. This will be a first for a Primary.

    An observations: as the Potomac primaries ended and Obama and McCain were giving there respective victory speeches. I noticed something telling. At Obama’s gathering, which was huge, I noticed there were all kinds of people. Simply put an audience that represented all of America. Then I turned to McCain’s speech and noticed oddly there were only White old men and women. It looked like a “Good Old Boys Network”. Which really was a turnoff. And I’m a 44 yr old white male.
    Go figure…Just an observation…

  • The FL and MI situation is bad. It basically represents a failure by the national party and state party’s to accomodate members. The national party probably should never have said ‘we won’t count your votes if you go that early’ and the state party should never have tried to call that as a bluff. Once both things have happened though, it would be ridiculous to count the votes now. For Hilarie to get away with saying “Oh, since I won, now let’s make it real” is shady in a way I would expect from the Rove machine.

    I’m not excited about Obama but I contributed to his campaign as soon as I saw Hilarie was looking to retroactively reinstate FL and MI.

    Incidentally, I’m one of those who have said they would never vote for Hilarie because of role in the Iraq war. I’ll renege and vote for her if she wins the nomination honestly. Super delegate shenanigans or counting those invalid FL and MI elections would not count as honest. I’m sure many feel similarly, so such maneuvers would just lead to a McCain presidency—which would really really suck.

  • That’s like saying that it is absolutely proper, indeed admirable, for any person or business to exploit any legal or tax loophole. Hmm, sounds like a republican or at least libertarian perspective. Ironically, the superdelegates are determinate ONLY in contests where their input has the least validity. Particularly in two horse races, each candidate has to have voter support near the 50% level. How can either of them be rended illegitimate by caprice?

  • I will remind you all once again Florida voted.

    It is irrelevant that they vote. The candidates other than Clinton approached the state as if the vote would not count and the outcome could have been quite different if Obama had actively campaigned in the state. We also don’t know how many additional votes she obtained by the manner in which she solicited the votes at the last minute.

    If Clinton receives the nomination by getting the votes from Florida or Michigan I will see this as stealing an election. I find this far worse than anything McCain is likely to do, and will vote for him over Clinton if Clinton wins in this manner.

  • I’m going to do something unusual here, and defend the SuperDelegate idea. (I should say that I have little doubt that it will be the SuperDelegates — not all of whom are total idiots — that will put OBAMA, not Hilary, ‘over the top.’ It might have been different if the races had been closer, but with Hilary not getting more than 40% against Obama anywhere since Super Tuesday, they aren’t going to pick her.)

    As usual ‘hard cases make bad law.’ In most cases the SDs are unimportant, merely making sure that Party Officeholders get seats at the party — and avoiding the embarrassment of having them run for the slot and getting defeated. But there are three cases which could occur where we would be very glad to have them. (Two of which will — barring a disaster — not be relevant this time, but think in the long term, guys.)

    First, a candidate develops a clear lead in the primaries, but between the Primaries and the convention information surfaces that would make that nominee unelectable. (It’s harder to imagine this happening nationally, but remember the time about a decade ago when two LaRouchians won the nomination — I think it was Illinois — for Senator and Attorney General, and the whole Democratic Party HAD to dissociate itself from two candidates who won the primary legitimately and democratically. Or take the overused TV Show plot of the candidate — don’t look for parallels, please, they aren’t meant — who knows one person has “the secret” that would make them unelectable and is involved with murdering that person to keep them shut up.

    Second, the Candidate with a clear lead dies or develops a debilitating illness (stroke, for example) that would keep them from campaigning or holding the office they are competing for.

    Third — this example — two candidates come into the election almost tied, with no clear frontrunner. (I don’t think this WILL be true this year, since I think Hilary’s losing streak will continue.)

    Okay, with the questions between ‘open primaries,’ ‘closed primaries’ and caucuses — some of which are only preliminary steps to later caucuses that actually determine the real delegates, if Hilary had won, oh, say Maryland, and come closer in a couple of other races, and if she were to win the remaining ‘big three’ states. it would be much harder to argue that the choice had been clearly made.

    So, imagine there were no SDs. The fighting would go on to the convention — and possibly beyond. “My candidate got more votes.” “My candidate won where we needed to win.’ ‘Primaries are what should matter.’ ‘No, caucuses are ‘direct democracy in action’ they should count because people, by giving up a whole evening, show how enthusiastic they are.’ It could get so vicious the Democrats could disinter John W. Davis (the eventual victor in the ‘long convention’ — 103 votes — of 1924, even though he’d never been a candidate) and run him again.

    SDs provide — sorry for the cliche — ‘closure.’ They actually give us a candidate. Maybe they’d do their job badly — condemn them for this — but they are the solution that IS in place.

    Will everyone who has condemned them please provide a substitute that could step in if a candidate with the plurality of pledged delegates is unelectable because of legal or health reasons, or if two candidates are so close that neither has a majority.

    And please, step back from 2008 and provide a system that is a true ‘firewall’ without mentioning either Hilary or Obama.

  • # 41, Jim said: [H]ave you been hearing what I have about sending out absentee ballots to all dems that voted on Jan 29th and holding a new primary? Our primary was closed so it would be very easy to do and inexpensive. I still believe that the results would be the same. Hillary 50-51%

    It’s not a fair revote to limit the vote to people who voted the first time. This would penalize those who, in reliance on the DNC’s ruling that their votes for presidential nominees would not count, did not bother to vote that day. I know you will say that voter turn out was high because there was some property issue on the ballot that day, but that doesn’t guarantee that no one who would have voted for a presidential candidate did not miss their opportunity to vote, especially given that there are probably many voters who didn’t care about the property issue (such as, those people—like students—who don’t own property. Oh, but they would have voted in higher numbers for Obama, so we wouldn’t want to let them vote. I see where you’re coming from…)

  • If I’m looking at the numbers correctly, Clinton’s going to need more than just her 3-state firewall to shut Obama down. Ohio, Texas, and Pennsylvania COMBINED are roughly equal to all the other states still waiting to vote. Three “biggies” compared to all the “smallies” means equal delegates available on both sides of the split.

    I can see Obama, right now, carrying all of those “smallies” by large percentages; point-spreads quite similar to what occurred in the Potomac set just two days ago.

    Clinton is banking everything on taking the “biggies” by the same percentages—when her average win has been by just a handful of points.

    So here’s what the common-sense scenario looks like right now. Clinton takes those 3 big states by just a few points, effectively splitting the committed delegates with Obama. Obama runs amok in the smaller states, and continues to rack up more delegates than Clinton. By June—when it’s all said and done—Obama is sitting on what will probably be a 150-to-160 lead in committed delegates.

    Add to that the fact that Edwards’ delegates are now free to vote as they wish, regardless of who Edwards endorses. A lot of the Edwards support was vehemently anti-Hillary, so one might logically expect them to shift over to Obama. That’s probably another 15-to-20 delegates to the Obama camp’s lead over Clinton, at the very least.

    There are, if I’ve figured this out correctly, less than 800 “supers” available. For Clinton to win the nomination, she’d have to take about 500 of those delegates—that’s 500 who would willingly look the other way and ignore the will of the voters.

    That would be the same as “opening a great big can of voter disenfranchisement” on the convention floor.

    Such a tactic would also ignore the mass votes garnered by Obama from both Indies and crossover GOPers. What Hillary going to do—insist that these people vote for her? It won’t happen—they’ll go back to the other side, because she cannot give them the reason to cross that Obama did.

    Obama built bridges to get those votes, and Clinton’s been trying to burn those bridges just as quickly as they’ve been built.

    Point: Clinton needs huge victories in her “firewall states,” and she needs big victories outside those states, as well. Anything else, and it’s either (a) game/set/match, Obama, of (b) game/set/match, McCain. I don’t see her doing that.

    And her new tactic—using McCain’s talking points to lash out at Obama—effectively negates any qualms she’s made about Obama “not being genuine.” She’s setting herself up for another flip-flop label.

    The day appears to be coming when “shooting yourself in the foot” will be termed “doing a Clinton….”

  • Just want to add one more thing on Florida. I live in Florida. I didn’t vote in the primary because I was under the impression the vote was meaningless. There were signs up for Repubilcans everywhere. There was no noticeable campaigning for any Dems. To continue with the rules as they were set at the time of the vote is the only fair option. Seating delegate according to the existing result would leave a lot of people (myself included) feeling “tricked” out of their vote. Based on Obama’s recent momentum, even a new vote here would be unfair. Our state is a mess when it comes to elections. We’ll sit this one out instead of mucking up another.

  • The flaws in the primary/caucus system in no way make the flaws in the SD system palatable. Unless of,by, and for the people is just useful rhetoric, signifying nothing, in a close two party race, there is no reason that is not a rationalization and a subversion of the democratic process to have the Uberdelegates decide.

  • Comment No. 64: “The state sets the primary date not the party in FL. It was rushed through the legislature led and controlled by republicans and signed by a republican governor. When the Speaker of the House was ask about the DNC stripping all delegates from FL he responded thats the breaks. So please quit saying that it was the FL Dem Party that was responsible for this.”

    Jim has spread this falsehood before, and he’s been corrected before (with supporting links). The vote in the Florida legislature to move the primary up was unanimous in one house and only received two nays in the other. So, Republicans and and nearly every Democrat voted to move the primaries up.

    Despite this vote, the Florida state Democratic party had (and still has) an opportunity to move this vote back, and they defiantly refused.

    If Jim wants to wallow in his ignorance, that’s his choice, but I wish he wouldn’t keep trying to pass his misinformation to the rest of us.

    Florida Democratic voters should direct their anger where it belongs, at the brave and defiant state party chair.

  • Will everyone who has condemned them please provide a substitute that could step in if a candidate with the plurality of pledged delegates is unelectable because of legal or health reasons, or if two candidates are so close that neither has a majority.

    It seems to me, Prup, that the answer is simply to invoke some kind of committee vote only in extraordinary circumstances. Its easy enough to write into the bylaws a set of circumstances whereby a superdelegate vote could be held as in the case of illness or some scandal complicating things. Not that this would work perfectly either but it would be an awful lot better than the situation we have now where 20% of the voting power in the hands of a select few citizens is the normative situation.

  • THIS IS NOT AN ELECTION!

    The more people participate in the primary, the more people forget that this is not the will of The People, but the will of a party. And a party makes rules, and why the heck shouldn’t a party decide that those people who dedicate their time, money, and life to the party–Dems call them Superdelegates–have a greater say than some guy who registered for the first time last month? Good or bad, it happens to be the system we have, and changing now would be the truely unfair part.

    Look, if this were a real election, “fairness” to the “common people” would matter more. But this is really late to change the rules.

    And anyone who thinks this will be the “end of the party” is nuts; nobody wants more of the last 8 years. If you’d stay home becuase you’re candidate didn’t get the nod–fair and square, by the way–then you’re selfish and ignorant.

    The real question is: do the superdelegats make the right call? Dems haven’t been too good at that for. . . oh, 20 years or so?

  • eadie,

    If the party system were fluid, you would have a point. But because our national elections have no runoffs, there’s no room for more than 2 parties – the Democrats and Republicans are functionally arms of the national government, rather than independent, privately-owned-and-lead entities.

  • So Florida did vote and all candidates were on the ballot and all had an equal chance to be heard.

    This is a lie. There was no chance for them to be heard because they all agreed not to campaign.

    The Obama campaign ran ads in all of northern FL where as the others didn’t run any ads.

    This is another lie. Obama did not run any ads in Florida. What he did was buy national advertising, and some of it ended up being run in Florida. Obama had no control over that, and your claim otherwise has been thoroughly debunked.

    I have a hard time taking anything you say seriously, Jim, because you just can’t seem to get your facts straight. By the way, how about your whopper of a claim that Obama’s support amongst young voters means nothing because only 10% of 18-24 year olds will turn out to vote?


  • Ed Stephan: I’m becoming inured to the behavior of our “party leadership”. Pelosi takes impeachment off the table. Reid predictably caves without a fight. They all enjoy the same corporate gravy train as the Bush Crime Family. Why shouldn’t we expect them to throw out their so-called rules if they should threaten the Clinton dynasty? Self-satisfied pigs.

    I have believed this all along. There has got to be a reason the Bush Administration are still hell bent on amassing executive power. Doesn’t it seem odd that nobody seems to be at all concerned about that power being ceded to a Clinton?

    This will absolutely tear the party apart. I was an Edwards supporter at my precinct in the Nevada caucus. I observed first-hand the strong armed tactics of her campaign. In the end, it was tied at 49 with 8 of us to break the tie (6 for Edwards, 2 for Kucinich). We *all* realigned with Obama but, somehow, it was called for Clinton (by mostly Clinton supporters). This only after almost being turned away by Clinton supporters telling us we were the only Edwards supporters (we were not and they told others the same thing).

    Don’t get me wrong: I have never been anti-Clinton and certainly not anti-Hillary. I will vote for her when it comes down to the wire. However, I don’t expect anything to change (they simply, I hope, won’t worsen as much as they would with a Republican win).

    I really feel like Iowa blindsided the established powers (Obama and Huckabee just weren’t “supposed” to win). Obama is still not “supposed” to win. This is not how it was supposed to go, and we will see more and more dirty tactics like this coming from the Clinton campaign and 1 or 3 things will happen (all acceptable to the Corporatocracy) in order of desirability:

    The Democratic Party will be too divided to succeed in the general election and McCain will win by default.
    Things will turn around for Clinton and the negative attacks will work (and the “lessor of 2 evils” will occur).
    Drastic measures will be taken.

    Democracy and power have collided and I think we may be underestimating the tenaciousness of the latter.

    Perhaps it’s all a giant facade (“good cop/bad cop”, anyone?).

    Now, pass me the tin foil!

  • And anyone who thinks this will be the “end of the party” is nuts; nobody wants more of the last 8 years. If you’d stay home becuase you’re candidate didn’t get the nod–fair and square, by the way–then you’re selfish and ignorant. -eadie

    While I agree it wouldn’t be the “end of the party,” I do think there would be a significant backlash if there is a clear winner among the people that is overridden by the supers. I think it is naive not to think there would be. Fortunately, I don’t think the supers are naive enough to overlook this and that if a clear winner among the people emerges they would back them.

    Should they prove me wrong, I honestly believe the backlash would be enough to ensure another four years of GOP rule.

  • The more people participate in the primary, the more people forget that this is not the will of The People, but the will of a party. And a party makes rules, and why the heck shouldn’t a party decide that those people who dedicate their time, money, and life to the party–Dems call them Superdelegates–have a greater say than some guy who registered for the first time last month?

    Because that is patently undemocratic. If the party cares about that then they should try and develop a more democratic system. If they don’t then why should any of us who are not party elites give a shit what they decide and more importantly why should any of us get involved in such a party.

    And anyone who thinks this will be the “end of the party” is nuts; nobody wants more of the last 8 years. If you’d stay home becuase you’re candidate didn’t get the nod–fair and square, by the way–then you’re selfish and ignorant.

    This is, of course, a deliberate misstatement of the argument being made here, which is not about which candidate gets the nod but whether they get the nod because of a fair and democratic process or because of the preferences of a small number of party insiders.

    The simple fact is that as much as none of us would like a repeat of the last eight years, a party that is willing to deliberately overturn the expressed wishes of its voters doesn’t inspire much confidence that they are interested in changing anything about those years. I for one would be quite unhappy with McCain but I don’t see how a party that definitively tells tens of millions of voters that the results of their voting are outweighed by the wished of 800 party people inspires much enthusiasm for its political aspirations.

  • Jake,

    If you are correct, and Jim is lying, then so was Bill Clinton just now:

    Bill Clinton said today that the delegates won by his wife in the penalized state of Florida should count towards the final score leading into the convention. In making his case, the former prez said “the Republicans set the date” in Florida and that “we had nothing to do with it.”

  • “Potentially incendiary steps” reads an awful lot like burning bridges. Hill needs more friends not more enemies at this point.

    How odd it is that all the states that rushed to move up in the primaries are finding that the states coming later in the primaries have all the power now. If Michigan and Florida had waited, their power and influence in this race would have grown, at least on the Democratic side and potentially even in the Republican race. If MI and FL had some political savvy, they should re-contest their Democratic races. That would have Barack and Hillary all over those states and focusing on their issues.

    Can this nation get a nationally important election process in Florida that isn’t a total effing drama? I’d love to see a clean election one of these days that hasn’t been Floridated.

  • # 108/Brent,

    First, you stated:

    Because that is patently undemocratic.

    My point is that this isn’t a democracy. It’s a party. I agree that if the result is that dem voters don’t want to vote Dem, there’s a problem.

    Then you went on to bash me like a troll when you have no idea what you’re talking about:

    This is, of course, a deliberate misstatement of the argument being made here, which is not about which candidate gets the nod but whether they get the nod because of a fair and democratic process or because of the preferences of a small number of party insiders.

    No, in fact, it was a paraphrase of the third comment on the list:

    If the superdelegates usurp the will of the people, the Democratic party will be torn to shreds

    I’m for Obama, I’ve been contributing here for about five years, and I don’t “deliberately misstate” arguments. Sorry if you confused *your argument with the one I was responding to. Go back and read any of my many comments; I try hard to have intelligent arguments.

    My point is that this is a party process, and while we might suddenly be realizing that the party process stinks (an arguable point, but if it alientates voters who would vote Dem, a good one). I think it’s unfair to change the game, and so would Obama if the roles were reversed. These aren’t “low tactics,” they’re the rules. Maybe bad ones, but following them isn’t “dirty.”

  • Hillary was voicing her concerns that Florida delegates should be seated very early on, well before the primary. Like it or not, super delegates will do what they think is best for the party, and if that means putting HRC as the nominee then so be it. If you are a democrat, you should vote for the nominee no matter who it is, otherwise you are in this for the wrong reasons.

    I have the answer to get everyone to the polls come election day…
    Clinton-Obama 08 !!!!

  • ‘why the heck shouldn’t a party decide that those people who dedicate their time, money, and life to the party–Dems call them Superdelegates–have a greater say than some guy who registered for the first time last month?’ – Brent

    Are you saying that these powerful movers and shakers don’t have greater say without the SD system? It’s like saying corporations and the wealthy don’t have a greater say without being able to bribe. If this is fair, perhaps we should have a weighted ballot in the elections. As things stand in this country now, imho, the bigshots have more than enough influence.

  • Our country has been setting a poor example for too long now, and the result has been a loss of respect from the rest of the world. Yet, we continually blame our leaders for this. The fault ultimately lies at the foot of the American citizenry for voting unwise & unmoral leaders into office.

    Attempting to change rules after the fact as Clinton is attempting in Michigan & Florida should be a red flag to all of us that she will not keep promises & honor agreements, & will not nobly represent us, a people of integrity, on the world stage.

    We the people better start accepting responsibility for the choices we make in terms of whom we vote to lead & represent us.

  • Hillary was voicing her concerns that Florida delegates should be seated very early on, well before the primary.

    Lie.

    The first time Clinton officially commented on seating those delegates was on January 25 – a mere 4 days before the Florida primary, when she had a pretty good idea as to how she was going to fare.

    I’m getting a little tired of all the bullshit on this thread.

  • Bill Clinton said today that the delegates won by his wife in the penalized state of
    Florida should count towards the final score leading into the convention. In making his case, the former prez said “the Republicans set the date” in Florida and that “we had nothing to do with it.

    Clinton is referring to the date of the Florida primaries. I hate to hear that, because he’s lying.

    5-28-07: “The DNC has granted the state party another extension for putting together its plan for awarding delegates. State party chairwoman Karen Thurman said she is looking at all options, even using Internet voting at later caucuses, and has not ruled out simply sticking with Jan. 29 and accepting the penalties..”

    To her discredit, and our demise, she defiantly stuck with Jan. 29.

    “After months of careful deliberations, your Party’s leaders have chosen overwhelmingly to reaffirm our strong commitment to fully participating in the state-run Democratic Presidential Primary on January 29, 2008, despite the penalties from the Democratic National Committee.

    There will be no other primary. Florida Democrats absolutely must vote on January 29th. We make this election matter. Not the DNC, not the delegates, not the candidates, but Florida Democrats like you and me voting together. We make it count.”

    As Jake indicated, the Florida Democrats in the legislature voted unanimously to move the primary date up.

  • My point is that this is a party process, and while we might suddenly be realizing that the party process stinks (an arguable point, but if it alientates voters who would vote Dem, a good one). I think it’s unfair to change the game, and so would Obama if the roles were reversed. These aren’t “low tactics,” they’re the rules. Maybe bad ones, but following them isn’t “dirty.”

    I will say again that this will never come up. The super delegates, for a lot of reasons, will not be the ones deciding this. But any candidate who feels perfectly comfortable with the idea of them deciding this is not worthy of my respect and certainly not worthy of my vote. I am not particularly interested in what is “low” or “dirty.” I am talking about a basic respect for the will of the voters. Clinton and her people could have responded to this issue in many ways that suggested that they want this process to be as democratically decided as possible. This was manifestly not one of those ways.

    I’m for Obama, I’ve been contributing here for about five years, and I don’t “deliberately misstate” arguments. Sorry if you confused *your argument with the one I was responding to. Go back and read any of my many comments; I try hard to have intelligent arguments.

    I am sorry if my rhetoric seemed unnecessarily confrontational. My point is that this debate is not about whether one candidate or the other gets the nod as you summarized it and I do not believe that that fairly paraphases the third comment. Tamalak’s point is about the fairness of the process that results in that decision not about whether or not his/her candidate wins.

    ‘why the heck shouldn’t a party decide that those people who dedicate their time, money, and life to the party–Dems call them Superdelegates–have a greater say than some guy who registered for the first time last month?’ – Brent

    You have misattributed. That was not my quote. In fact, I was quoting it to dispute the point.

  • I am from a state that holds a primary so I cannot speak from personal experience. I do have a close friend who participated in the Iowa Democratic caucus. From what he told me and from everything I’ve read on them, a caucus is not a good indication of broad support. I have to agree with what Gail Collins wrote today in her New York Times column (just partly tongue in check judging from previous comments she’s written)

    “One-third of the states that have voted for a presidential nominee so far have done it by caucus. There is an impression abroad that these caucuses are grass-roots democracy, like those cute town meetings in “The Gilmore Girls.” Even if that were true, which it’s not, consider whether you would really want a presidential nominee selected by about 20 colorful characters in a barn.”

    Come on now, at least smile.

  • Yeah, that last one was my quote lol. Sorry, too; I think I took it the wrong way, Brent.

    And the funny part is, I agree with you in principal, it’s just a question of timing. At least we’re all fired up about the election. Good news for Dems and progressive values.

  • Imagine a candidate fighting for a favorable result to an election. Imagine that candidate fighting tooth and claw for every vote. Imagine that candidate is Gary Hart.

    Imagine now, a candidate fighting tooth and claw through State Courts, Appellate Courts, State Supreme Courts, and finally the U.S. Supreme court, all to get votes counted properly. Imagine that candidate is Obama.

    Does that make you comfortable? Or would you rather have the Clinton forces lined up for that battle?

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