Clinton campaign to target pledged delegates? Redux

The ground rules seem pretty clear at this point — Barack Obama’s and Hillary Clinton’s presidential campaigns are going after superdelegates with everything they’ve got. Pledged delegates were chosen through primaries and caucuses, voters have reasonable expectations that they will do what they’re supposed to do, and wooing them is perceived as a real no-no.

Now, the notion that the Clinton campaign might try to peel off Obama’s pledged delegates first came up as a rumor a few weeks ago. Clinton campaign spokesman Phil Singer responded to the talk with a rather unambiguous denial: “We have not, are not and will not pursue the pledged delegates of Barack Obama. It’s now time for the Obama campaign to be clear about their intentions.” (It wasn’t entirely clear why the Obama campaign’s intentions needed to be clarified, but officials said they, too, would not pursue Clinton’s pledged delegates.)

And yet, this just won’t go away. Here’s Clinton yesterday, talking to the Philadelphia Daily News:

“I just don’t think this is over yet, and I don’t think that it is smart for us to take a position that might disadvantage us in November. And also remember that pledged delegates in most states are not pledged. You know, there is no requirement that anybody vote for anybody. They’re just like superdelegates.”

Actually, they’re really not. Sure, they each get a vote at the convention, just like pledged delegates, but pledged delegates are chosen by voters and superdelegates are rewarded for being insiders.

More importantly, though, if the Clinton campaign believes pledged delegates are “just like” superdelegates, it once again raises the specter of some uncomfortable campaign developments.

This would be easier to overlook if it wasn’t happening with such frequency. A couple of weeks ago, Ben Smith reported that during a conference call with reporters, top Clinton aide Harold Ickes noted that pledged delegates aren’t formally bound to vote for the candidate they’re elected to support. “That binding rule was knocked out in 1980,” he said. Ickes didn’t actually say the Clinton campaign would start pursuing pledged delegates, but the fact that he would highlight the rule raised eyebrows.

A few days later, Hillary Clinton personally sparked speculation about this in an interview with Newsweek. Asked how she could still win the nomination given Obama’s delegate lead, Clinton said:

“[The math] doesn’t look bleak at all. I have a very close race with Senator Obama. There are elected delegates, caucus delegates and superdelegates, all for different reasons, and they’re all equal in their ability to cast their vote for whomever they choose. Even elected and caucus delegates are not required to stay with whomever they are pledged to.”

And yesterday marked the third time in three weeks, suggesting this is very much on the campaign’s mind.

To reiterate a point from a couple of weeks ago, this would certainly be a hardball move from the Clinton campaign, but it’s not literally cheating. Ickes and Clinton are right — pledged delegates are not, in fact, required to stick with their candidate at the convention.

The point, though, is that it feeds the perception of “stealing” votes — voters participated in primaries and caucuses, chose delegates to represent their preference, and now one campaign might try to undo the primary and caucus results by targeting pledged delegates. If this is the strategy, Clinton is, in effect, saying she wants the delegates from the states she won and the delegates from the states she lost. If you’re a Clinton backer, you might like this fighting spirit. If not, it seems like an underhanded way of sowing division and undermining the party.

As Isaac Chotiner recently noted:

The strategy here seems completely mystifying. It’s simply impossible to imagine that Clinton will get elected delegates to switch to her (the outcry would be enormous, obviously), and yet her campaign is intent on pushing the idea (Harold Ickes said something similar last week). All this ensures is that the media will run a lot stories about a dirty campaign intent on stealing the election. Given that the Clintonites are going to need some good will in July (if in fact they want to garner a delegate majority through superdelegates), the logic of this ploy eludes me.

For all I know, this is just a coincidence. Clinton and Ickes weren’t hinting, and the fact that this keeps coming up is not indicative of an actual strategy at all. For that matter, it’s equally possible that the Clinton campaign is simply trying to create more uncertainty about the process (in other words, “Note to superdelegates: don’t commit now; anything can still happen”) and won’t follow through.

But the talk is unhelpful, and in all likelihood, pointless — candidates chose delegates based in part on their commitments to the candidates. If the Clinton campaign began targeting pledged delegates, it would not only become highly divisive, it would also likely fail.

Yes… all a coincidence. Funny how pledged delegates are getting robocalls from the Clinton campaign asking them to switch though:

http://ruralvotes.com/thefield/?p=935

  • the Clinton campaign is simply trying to create more uncertainty about the process

    Agreed. She seems to think that as long as there’s a remote chance, then that’s all they need. To hell with the party, this is about HRC and her entitlement to the nomination.

    She’s like the Black Knight, after fighting Arthur valliantly and losing both her arms, still acting like the fight is winnable. She’s kicking her opponent, hurling insults and begging the superdelegates to put her out of her misery.

  • There are reports from Iowa two weeks ago where the Clinton Campaign sent Sean Astin to woo pledge delegates away from Obama, so to initially suggest this is something that they would not do must be another instance of “misspeaking”.

  • It is established that the Clintons will do anything and say anything to win the nomination.
    She has no quit in her. Her online trolls extol this as the type of quality we want in a president.
    Whatever…

    We have current president who will do anything and say anything to keep us in a war we can’t win. He has no quit in him. His online trolls extol his resolution.
    Whatever…

    What we have here:
    His and Her Bubbleness bunkered down in their self-driven certainties.
    Whatever…

    Whatever… because here is where we really are:
    Barack has more delegates. More votes. More States won.
    The one sure way to kick Clinton’s ass from here to Bosnia is to make sure Barack has much much much much more money.

    You know what to do. You know where to click…
    Remember Bob Dylan’s famous quote: Money doesn’t talk it screams.
    This is one metric every delegate and superdelegate can understand.
    Make it so.

  • It doesn’t matter what they intend to do or not. Just talking like this and implying that pledged delegates and election results are pliable and subject to behind-the-scenes manipulation is just not healthy and confidence-inspiring for voters.

    She may not intend to ever flip a delegate, and only means to cast doubt on the system. Those offenses are, to me, BOTH egregious, and unbecoming of a DEmocratic Presidential candidate.

    If this type of shit is going to be her contribution to the process, she needs to go.

  • I wonder to what degree the fact that she has raised over a hundred million, mostly from insider, corporate types, has to do with this. With Obama insisting that he won’t take money from lobbyists, and assuming he doesn’t allow their undue influence, there must be a lot of people threatened by him. And they’re not all Republicans. Money changes everything.

  • This is Hillary’s way of telling the supers that she can’t be knocked out before the convention. Even if they put Obama over the top after the last primary, she can just refuse to acknowledge the 2025 milestone, because the pledged delegates will still be a variable factor until they vote on the convention floor.

    This is just Hillary’s way of saying that she’ll hold the nomination process hostage if the superdelegates don’t give the race to her.

    The party should give her 48 hours maximum to formally concede the race once Obama gets to 2025 on the strength of superdelegate support alongside his pledged delgate lead. HRC’s Senate colleagues should use committee leadership positions as their stick to beat her out of the race if she does not go quietly into the night following Obama’s victory.

  • I hope Clinton supporters in Penssylvania think long and hard about this. Do you really want the Democratic nominee to be someone who would try to woo pledged delegates? If she would do this, then what wouldn’t she do once in office? This along with her recent fabrications about Bosnia, Ireland, etc. demonstrates a pattern of making statements that go way beyond exageration. Honor and integrity should count for something.

    So, please…all you people who still have the opportunity to vote, think really really hard about which candidate is more likely to bring statemanship, integrity, and, decency to the White House.

  • If the Reverand Wright videos and the controversy surrounding Obama’s relationship with this man would have been around early on in this contest, Obama would not be in his current “front-runner” position.

    For the Clintons to point out that pledged delegates are not bound is not against the rules, and this does not prove that they are actively seeking to change pledged delegates votes.

    The pledged delegates represent the will of the people, and if that will changes, then those delegates should follow the will of those people who are free to change their minds.

    Pledged delgates are not bound, this was done purposefully in order to keep a candidate who is considered unelectable from being nominated. I’m not saying that Obama has been rendered unelectable, but it could happen.

  • My prediction is that Clinton will become more and more desperate given the low mathematical odds of her ‘winning’ the nomination for President. As the acts of desperation increase, two things will occur. First, voters will understand that she will do just about anything to win, including subverting the will of the people by trying to peel off pledged delegates. This will turn voters off who will not vote for her. Second, super-delegates and Democratic leaders will realize that her tactics are costing the Democratic party in this election, and potentially over a much longer period. Younger voters may turn away from the party for a multi-year period if they see this cynical tactic gaining traction, let alone succeeding. Therefore, I fully expect super-delegates to begin lining up behind Obama in greater measure.

    Obviously, I am willing to believe people are actually somewhat rational in making this prediction.

  • my conspiracy theory du jour is twofold

    a: HRC may very well be trying to woo pledged delegates, though as much on the down-low as possible.

    b: her and her campiagn’s frequent reminders that pledged delegates can vote for whomever they choose will frighten the Obama campaign enough into courting pledged delegates aggressively, so they can take the high road and say “NOW who’s trying to circumvent the will of the people, huh? Huh? Huh? Huh?”

    I would like to point out though, that, as douche-y of a move as it would be for a pledged delegate to switch sides, a Clinton delegate COULD just as easily switch to Obama as vice versa. Considering how uck-fupped her campiagn’s been run lately, opening that can of worms would not necessarily bode well for her either. In fact, were I running one of these internet blog dealie-ohs, I’d reach out to the delegates pledged to Clinton, where the vote was incredibly tight, and convince those pledged delegates that, for the good of the party, they’ll promise to switch THEIR vote to Obama were a delegate pledged to Obama decide to jump ship into the Clinton camp.

  • In response to Post #10, Greg, that doesn’t make as much sense to me. It is analogous to saying that if John Kerry made some sort of outrageous over the top remarks after the Nov. 2000 election and before the Supreme Court decision, it would be fine for the Supreme Court to look at the dramatic polling change after the election and give the election to Bush.

    People voted once and those votes are binding. The only historical reason a pledged delegate is not bound is because it gives the delegate the opportunity to change allegiance at the convention in exceptional circumstances and when there are multiple voting rounds in a deadlocked convention.

    By the way, Electoral College representatives are also NOT bound.

  • Just as a reminder regarding the rules versus the spirit of the law, Electors in the Electoral College are not all bound by law. However, we all know that it is inconceivable that an Elector would switch unless the circumstances were exceptional. Read this article from the U.S. Government:

    http://www.archives.gov/federal-register/electoral-college/laws.html

    I see it equally inconceivable that pledged delegates would switch votes in this process. That would signal the process was not democratic or fair. The rule of law need apply.

  • If the Reverand Wright videos and the controversy surrounding Obama’s relationship with this man would have been around early on in this contest, Obama would not be in his current “front-runner” position.

    Congratulations, this is one of the stupidest comments I’ve ever read on this blog. If Clinton had made her Bosnia comments two weeks before Super Tuesday, think she’d be even remotely in the game now? And if pledged delegates are free to vote for whomever they choose, what’s the point of a national primary and caucuses?

    And by your statements, II assume you fully support Obama going after Clinton’s pledged delegates. People pushing this line always imply that it’s fine for Clinton to try to snipe Obama’s delegates, but never seem to fully appreciate the fact that Obama would then be equally able to go after Hillary’s. Hillary can use the Clinton machine to get what she wants, while Obama’s campaign has more money than God (speaking of which, today definitely calls for another donation from me) to spend building a bigger and better grassroots organization to support local elections. Who do you think is going to win that fight if it comes down to it?

  • I have been saying this for months now. JFK was nominated because delegates pledged to Adlai Stevenson changed their minds on the first ballot and switched to JFK. There is nothing that says a pledged delegate must vote a particular way.

    When Clinton states this as a fact, which it is, she is addressing the contention that she should drop out of the race because Obama’s number of pledged delegates mean she cannot be nominated. If Obama’s people were not exerting such pressure to force her out of the race before it is time, I doubt she would have said anything about the pledged delegates at all. But what she said is true.

    If Obama’s delegates can be swayed by anything Sean Astin says, then perhaps Obama shouldn’t be the candidate. As has been pointed out elsewhere, the delegates are delegates exactly because they are strong supporters of the candidate they are pledged to. A race where they can be “picked off” by anything Clinton might say to them, is a race that shouldn’t be terminated prematurely.

    For the rest of you, her true statement will no doubt encourage the feeding frenzy here by giving you something else to feel outraged about.

    Apparently, no one on the left is giving any thought to where the Clinton supporters will go once this primary is over. I am so angry about the behavior of the Obama supporters that I am going to vote for Nader (or perhaps the Greens or Peace and Freedom). I don’t care whether McCain wins. We’ve survived Reagen and Bush and we can survive McCain too. I dislike McCain but I dislike you people even more. I will not stay in a party where folks behave the way you Obama supporters have.

    Your belief that Clinton supporters will magically reenter the fold no matter how you treat them, is flat wrong. You cannot kick people around and then expect to make up later. Of course, no one is talking about this problem because you Obama folks think Obama will just sing another chorus of Kumbaya and everything will heal itself. Not going to happen.

    Remember the prediction that whoever loses for the Democrats in the Fall will be the most hated person in America? Keep that in mind for the November election. You need Clinton supporters to keep Obama from suffering that fate. If you keep up the ugliness, Obama is going to be the guy who suffers for it. Clinton will go back to the Senate. Obama’s career will be over.

  • In reply again to post #10 from Greg, I just did some research on ‘faithless electors’ in the general election. Read this entry in Wikipedia:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faithless_elector

    very interesting.

    This is the most interesting part:

    “On 158 occasions, electors have cast their votes for President or Vice President in a manner different from that prescribed by the legislature of the state they represented. Of those, 71 votes were changed because the original candidate died before the elector was able to cast a vote. Two votes were not cast at all when electors chose to abstain from casting their electoral vote for any candidate. The remaining 85 were changed by the elector’s personal interest, or perhaps by accident. Usually, the faithless electors act alone. An exception was in 1836 when 23 Virginia electors changed their vote together.”

  • Edward @ 13

    Are you serious? Kerry didn’t run in 2000, that was Gore.
    Don’t hate the player, hate the game, HRC is not breaking any rules, and is not going after pledged delegates directly. Stating that they can change their votes is very simply pointing to the rules, you know the rules, right?

    Obama played by the rules when he opted to not compromise about FL & MI, Obama supporters were not yelling about that one, yet the end result is that millions of people have been disenfranchised.

  • Mary, you don’t dislike supporters like me even 1% as much as I dislike you. How you can turn Clinton’s subversion of the process into somehow being another reason for you to hate Obama is just beyond flabbergasting. Perhaps you can just start up the Ignorant Doofus party and run your own slate of candidates, the Democratic party won’t miss your sorry ass a bit. Probably even McCain is smart enough to reject your support.

  • In response to post #16 from Mary, I have to say I am an Obama supporter. In truth, I am an Independent-minded Libertarian. As an example, I voted for Perot in ’92 but Gore in 2000. I also voted for Hillary Clinton for Senate in 2000 when I lived in NY.

    All that said, it seems unreasonable to me for you to ‘Protest Vote’ for Nader because of overzealous supporters of one or more candidates. Look, I see this election as one of the most pivotal in American History. We are truthfully on the verge of an economic calamity bigger than anything since the Great Depression and are engaged in two wars that have cost us 7% of GDP and counting. For you to not look rationally at the candidates and vote accordingly would be a shame because this is one instance in which we do need to make a real choice for America.

    I share your sentiments about overzealousness because it is Clinton’s behavior which has led me to similar conclusions should she win. I honestly think about voting for McCain in a McCain-Clinton general election. However, I do this not because of what Clinton’s surrogates say, but rather because of how I perceive the candidate herself and how I perceive the candidate McCain.

    Do stay engaged, there are reasonable people supporting each candidate. If you want a blog that has well-reasoned pro-HRC content, try this one:
    http://anonymousisawoman.blogspot.com/.

  • short fuse post #18, it’s because of people like you that Mary is turned off. If you want to talk about the issues, why not focus on the candidates and their position, their character, their statements.

    You say things like “I dislike you” and “Ignorant Doofus party.” Do you really expect to have a discussion with comments like that or are you looking to antagonize?

    Honestly, you are doing your candidate Barack Obama a serious disfavor with your vitriol.

  • I’m shocked that the Clintons will do anything to win. Shocked.

    If Clinton had made her Bosnia comments two weeks before Super Tuesday, think she’d be even remotely in the game now?

    If HRC wasn’t married to Bill does anyone believe that she’d be a US senator right now?

    Her dream of being president is over, the only question is whether she wants to take down the democratic party with her.

  • Seems like a bit of a catch-22 to me. If Hillary can convince pledged delegates that Obama is somehow unelectable and that they should switch to her, she will instantly become unelectable herself.

    What a sad thing this Democratic primary season has become. Mary’s likely to get he President McCain, and the rest of us will get to spend years trying to salvage a political party that by all rights should be at the apex of its strength. How is it that as smart and capable as they are, they Clintons manage to turn everything they touch into pure crap?

  • Here’s my answer to Greg and his clones who continue to argue that Rev. Wright’s entire life and career can somehow be categorized based exclusively on 3 minutes of videotape cherry-picked from hundreds of hours of his sermons:

    By continuing to flog this argument for days after it has massively been disproved, you have proved that you are really stupid. I’m going to assume from that that you have always been stupid and will always be stupid. There is absolutely no further reason for me or anyone else to pay any further attention to you – please remove yourself from the gene pool immediately!

  • I’d hate to be in the Clinton camp’s position, hoping against hope that before the convention Fox News would come up with video of Obama and Rev. Wright burning a flag together and using pages of the Bible for tinder.

  • It’s simple: in Clinton World,. everything Bill and Hillary want, they get. And fuck you if you get in their way.

    He was a lying, scheming sonofabitch (in his case, literally, when you look into his family history) long before he ran for President. There’s a reason he was known as “Slick Willy” by people who had dealt with him. She’s right with him – birds of a feather do indeed flock together.

    The Clintons and the Bushes need to be driven out of the country – the two combined are the worst threat the republic has ever faced: treason from within by people willing to destroy everything in the pursuit of their egos. They are the American version of the Caesars.

  • Greg at 18,

    you’re right it was Gore (typing too fast). I was trying to make an analogy about fair play. You are right again that the rules do allow Clinton to peel off pledged delegates just as I illustrated you could do the same with Electors in the general election.

    But. my real point is that at some point you have to have a code of conduct that people use irrespective of the law. And it is obviously not kosher to try to peel off pledged delegates.

    You question Obama on Michigan and Florida. Fair enough. I happen to see nothing wrong in how that one has played out thus far (although I would like a plan that gave Clinton the proportion se won in each State and the rest to Obama, cutting the total # olf delegates in half like the Republicas did in Florida).

    But do two wrongs make a right? This thing is ugly enough without creating more problems.

    Comment, Greg

  • If Clinton had made her Bosnia comments two weeks before Super Tuesday, think she’d be even remotely in the game now?

    Seriously, you compare an instance where she misspoke to being closely tied to such a controversial man?

    Let me spell it out for those of you who are not paying attention to what alot of America is saying, and that is that Obama is not who he says he is and therefore untrustworthy, and yes, a lot of people will not vote for him in November if he wins the nomination.

  • An Obama delegate, for all intent and purpose, is likely to be a razor-sharp Obama fanatic. They’re not going to change over to Hill-Ville just because some boot-lackey approaches them with a con-job storyline.

    This nonsense about swaying Obama’s pledged delegates is a total farce, with the sole purpose of staving off total defeat at the hands of the supers. As it becomes even more obvious that Clinton is no longer politically fit to be the nominee, those supers will start drifting into the Obama column—not in groups of two or three, but by the dozens.

    Her campaign coffers are running on the imaginary fumes of contributions that are no longer materializing. Her campaign talking-heads are being exposed as demented muppets (examples: Penn, Ickes, and Carville—need I say more?). Her talking points are being exposed as misconstructions, fairy tales, distortions, and downright lies.

    I’m about ready to declare that the Fiefdom of Clintonia is in its death throes….

  • Non-sense aside. HRC will not beat McCain even is she wins the primary if she keeps pursuing these absurd stunts. She has lost my vote, and I suspect others, and she will not get it no matter what. This is so gad damn republican I want to vomit. I am a Democrat and I will not vote to gain and/or keep power.

    Will someone (SuperDelegates) please just shoot her with the Elephant Dart Gun (SD Pledge) and put her and the party out of its misery ? Democrats, we do not reward bad behavior, we need to make an example of how we will never run the party, and it needs to be done soon.

  • “And also remember that pledged delegates in most states are not pledged.”

    Good! Hooray! Obama people can now go after those “pledged” to Hillary. Go for it, guys and gals. Give the Hillary delegates a chance to save their miserable hides by offering them a chance to jump to our side before the first ballot.

  • Greg, at #24, your post flipped to 18 while I was writing. When I started writing, short fuse was 18.

    If you are supporting either Democratic candidate, you’ve got to hate this process. Ultimately, this process could make either Obama or Clinton unelectable. And again, that is going to turn off a lot of voters from the Democratic party for quite some time.

    I think it’s a shame.

  • Greg @10:

    The pledged delegates represent the will of the people, and if that will changes, then those delegates should follow the will of those people who are free to change their minds.

    Are you seriously proposing we re-run all the primaries and caucuses? If not, how are the pledged delegates supposed to know the “changed” will of th epeople? Don’t we settle “the will of the people” by voting? Are you willing to substitute polling — even though polls have been wildly off in this campaign so far?

    Why are you willing to disenfranchise — and this time, it’s literally to disenfranchise; i.e., render invalid — the votes of millions of people?

  • Greg said: . I’m not saying that Obama has been rendered unelectable, but it could happen.

    And a fuckwitted moron like you could grow a brain, Greg, but I doubt that will happen either.

  • HRC: “I don’t think that it is smart for us to take a position that might disadvantage us in November.”

    Well then, why are you pissing off most of the new Democratic voters who are registering this year, and praising McCain’s “experience”?

    You’ve already shot yourself in the foot, lady. You need to go.

  • How could this be a minor slip, when she described in detail what happened..Such a straght faced LIAR, she’s freightening.Better not put someone in charge who can lie to the people of Pennsylvania with such conviction. You people better check your self you you’re going to vote for her..we’re all doomed, and she’ll lie, and lie.I wonder how much of her campaign message is truth or LIES…

  • 18. Greg said: Don’t hate the player, hate the game,

    Am I allowed to hate the emotionally-stunted fuckups who think the future of our country is a god-damned “game” to be won or lost rather than a set of real problems which we need to address? I’m really confused about the rules of this “game” you’re playing.

  • So once again Hillary is saying that voters don’t really matter. All that matters is her winning, even if it means subverting the will of the people.

    You know, I have really, really, really tried to give her the benefit of the doubt and some slack. Even when reading how many of her supporters won’t vote for Obama (even though both candidates have pretty much the same polices; it really does boggle my mind), I’ve tried to lay off them and keep the discussion pleasant.

    But this whole idea she and her folks are floating is clinically stupid. If she wants to alienate millions … if she wants to show that the record turnout for Dem primaries means nothing to her … if she wants to turn off the ridiculous number of younger voters getting politically active … if she wants to prove true the claims of her cuthroat political philosophy and willingness to do whatever benefits her the most … then by all means, keep pushing this and act on it.

    The simple truth is, she can act like the democratic (small d) process means something to her, or she can act like all that matters is getting the nomination as if it was her birthright.

    I hope she chooses the former.

  • Edward (@21), I sorta agree with you in concept, but Mary has posted so much anti-Obama BS in these forums over months that I think you might be addressing the wrong party.

    I don’t dislike most Clinton supporters. In fact, I wish we had more supporters commenting here who could argue her merits (instead of Obama’s perceived weaknesses). But Mary’s already made it clear that she will vote for anyone-but-Obama if the voters spurn her Hill, so there’s really no point in engaging with her. In fact, she’s the one who said “I dislike you people even more”.

  • Greg@30: Sure, I’ll compare an instance where Hillary herself misspoke/lied repeatedly about coming under sniper fire to Obama’s personal friendship with someone whose views I find to be extreme and abhorrent. Heck, I’ll go one step further and say that Hillary is more responsible for what she says than Obama is for what Wright says. And that either dishonesty or false memories of being shot at reflect more poorly on one’s fitness to lead the country than friendship with someone whose views are extreme.

    Crazy, I know, but I’m just like that. Maybe it would help if you remind me again about how Hillary isn’t responsible for her own statements, but Obama *is* responsible for Wright’s views?

  • Mary said: I am so angry about the behavior of the Obama supporters that I am going to vote for Nader (or perhaps the Greens or Peace and Freedom). I don’t care whether McCain wins. We’ve survived Reagen and Bush and we can survive McCain too. I dislike McCain but I dislike you people even more.

    You can, of course, vote for whomever you wish, but you will have to live with the fact that this decision unmistakably marks you as someone who cares more about her own fragile ego than about progressive principles. “I don’t care if McCain wins” = you don’t care about Supreme Court justices for the next generation. You don’t care about health care, the poor, the environment, peace, job security, civil rights and liberties, the Constitution, growing income inequality, science, education, and the separation of church and state, to name a few issues too minor for your concern.

    You might as well vote for McCain, because you’ve outed yourself as as morally depraved as any Republican–actually, you’re even more unethical, because you’re willing to enable evil because your control freakery didn’t work out for you.

  • Ed Stephan in #32 you said
    “Good! Hooray! Obama people can now go after those “pledged” to Hillary.”

    That brings up an interesting point. What is a pledged delegate anyway?

    I came across a great Superdelegate page on Politico. The interesting thing is the press release when a delegate goes for a candidate. Check out the HRC press release about the superdelegate Lynn Woolsey of CA. Notice that Lynn Woolsey “endorses”Clinton. So, she is not technically pledged to Woolsey.

    I think BOTH campaigns are attacking those delegates that are endorsing but haven’t pledged. That’s what this may be about. There’s a comment in the blog the Field about this.

    So, it could be that Clinton is attacking the ‘endorsements’ and not the ‘pledges.’ I think that’s fair game, honestly.

  • Greg is a republican tool trying to play concern troll. That is all he is about and all he has been about since he started posting here.

    Greg doesn’t support HRC, he just bashes Obama (with a little bone toss to Hils on rare occasion).

    Greg is a GOP troll. Nothing more. Nothing less.

    DO NOT FEED THE TROLLS.

  • Just a side note, Obama has already picked up one delegate from Clinton in Iowa, where her 15 predicted delegates based on election night results went down to 14 after the second round of caucuses.

    Democratic Party projections said the results mean Obama increased by nine the number of delegates he collects from the state, getting a total of 25, compared with 14 for Clinton and six for Edwards.

    Projections on caucus night showed Obama getting 16 delegates, compared with 15 for Clinton and 14 for Ed- wards.

  • Good point, MsJoanne. For that matter, Mary may well be a Republican concern troll, too. Is anyone outside the Bush administration that spectacularly talented at blocking out any and all facts that counter their own desires? Is it possible to seriously be that self-absorbed and allergic to reality and not be living in a psych ward?

  • I’m trying to understand two of the arguments being made recently…

    To paraphrase and summarize:
    #1 from a week or so ago: If a state holds its primary too late, after the issue is no longer in doubt, then those voters are being ‘disenfranchised’

    #2 this weeks argument: If a state holds its primary too early, and then ‘new’ information comes out after the primary, then the those voters are being robbed of a chance to know the truth and therefore the results should be changed to reflect the new ‘reality’.

    My question is this: Then when the heck is it right for a state to hold it’s primary? There must be a day in there somewhere that works for you…What’s your schedule like for next wednesday at 11:00?

  • 29. Greg said: Seriously, you compare an instance where she misspoke to being closely tied to such a controversial man?

    You mean compare a situation where the candidate has personally lied about her resume repeatedly to a situation where a candidate’s friend and religious mentor has controversial views that no one has accused the candidate of sharing? I don’t think there is any comparison at all, the former seems far worse to me.

  • Someone said earlier that we “survived Reagan and Bush, so we can survive McCain too.”

    Sadly, I know 4,000 Americans and 600,000 Iraqis whose families might disagree with you on this one.

  • To anyone who wants to vote for Some Other Guy if their candidate doesn’t get nominated, here ya go: Supreme Court allows retiree benefit cuts

    http://tpzoo.wordpress.com/2008/03/25/supreme-court-allows-retiree-benefit-cuts/

    And I would like to wish every one of you a happy retirement…and a warm Go Cheney Yourself.

    Maria, I agree with you. I used to think Mary was a true Clinton supporter, but she’s not. Her post above proves that.

    The fucking GOP is hitting all the progressive sites with bullshit to get people within the Democratic party to fight with each other. I say stop now.

    You want Clinton, fine. You want Obama, fine. Either are strong dems.

    FUCK THESE TROLLS! The people of this country deserve better!

  • Although I’m not a Democrat, I feel invested in this race because the Bush administration has veered so far to the wrong side of things domestically and abroad. So, I am nervous that the Democrats are going to blow themselves up.

    That said, I am not really that liberal (fiscal conservative, foreign policy realist, social liberal) and could see myself voting for McCain like a lot of independents. So, it is crucial that the Democratic nominee come out of the nomination process looking electable.

    When this whole thing started, I was willing to vote for whoever one the Democratic primary process: Richardson, Edwards, Obama, Clinton, Dodd, whoever. As time went on, my sentiment shifted toward Obama. At some point, there was only two people left in the race: Obama and Clinton. Things started to get nasty but I was fine with it

    Then, Clinton let loose with the “Commander-in-chief threshold” comment. I was so horrified by that one comment, that I practically ruled Clinton out right then and there. I just feel like she is a person who will do whatever it takes for political expediency and I can’t trust that the positions she avows now are ones she would defend once in the White House.

    I remembered the Lani Guinier incident and the Gays in the Military thing in 1993 in Bill Clinton’s administration. Those things reaffirmed for me then that one couldn’t trust Bill Clinton to uphold his promises. The “Commander-in-chief” comment has done the same for me. Anyway, this is why I don’t like Hillary Clinton — I think she lacks character and I can’t trust that she won’t sell us out for political expediency.

    I get the sense that a lot of people are feeling that way in this primary season. Some people say it with rancor, emotion, and foul language. Some say it like I do. But the underlying feeling is the same: Distrust. And, for good reason.

    On the other hand, I have been looking for reasons to see Obama and McCain in a similar light in order to even the playing field. I mean, I want to make sure I am not just looking for confirmatory evidence and ruling out Clinton based on faulty information. But time and again, I can’t find anything that the others do that approaches Clinton’s lack of character.

    Look at this Bosnia thing. Clinton had an amazing and significant role as a trusted unofficial adviser to her husband throughout his presidency. Everyone knows that. Yet, she goes ahead and lies point blank about such an insignificant detail like the Bosnia trip. Does she think we’re idiots? Is she compulsive? I don’t understand her. She is one of the smartest women to ever have political prominence in this country and yet she constantly kills herself by evading the truth, mudslinging and lying. It’s sad because she would have great potential if she had the strength of character to stand up to her convictions.

  • Mary – you really need to get a grip. There hasn’t been in the 15 comments before yours a single anti-Clinton comment on this thread that is not matched or overmatched in vitriol by the kinds of things you and other Clinton supporters have been using for months. In fact so far it’s been pretty mild, and well within the range of acceptable discourse by those on the opposite sides of a primary election.

    Here’s a sampling of other websites commenting on the meaning of this latest meme from the Clinton campaign about switchable delegates. They are mostly within the range of acceptable, if spirited, discourse and disagreement in a primary campaign that most of the comments on this site occupy. You’ll notice if you check them out that most are raising reasonable points about how this latest trial balloon seems more intended to spread octopus ink rather than clarity.

    http://www.attytood.com/2008/03/clinton_pledged_delegates_are_1.html

    http://themoderatevoice.com/at-tmv/newsweek-blogitics/18588/moving-the-goalposts-with-hillary/

    http://blogs.tnr.com/tnr/blogs/the_plank/archive/2008/03/25/pledged-delegates-again.aspx

    http://talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/185389.php

    Josh Marshall, who wrote the Talking Points Memo entry, can hardly be accused of being a hater or lover of either Democratic candidate – he calls em like he sees em.

    I will just say that if her campaign actually intends to try to flip delegates, then they are “disenfranchising” many more voters in legitimate primaries than those who had the misfortune to vote in the two states that didn’t follow the rules. Meanwhile, if the commentors here make you so unhappy, maybe you want to hang out more at Talk Left or Taylor Marsh where you will find people who agree with you all the time.

  • Shailmar at #50,

    I’ve got to agree with you on the Bosnia thing versus Rev. Wright. What Wright appears to say is pretty atrocious. But, it’s not Obama saying these things any more than it was Clinton speaking when Geraldine Ferraro started going off. Let’s look at just what the candidates say and judge them accordingly.

    Interestingly, if you look at the speeches by Wright in context, you will see that the statements are a lot different than they appear in sound-bite form. I say as much on my blog. Here are the YouTube links to the full sermons (here and here).

    Off to lunch. Look forward to reading all your comments when I return.

  • My question is this: Then when the heck is it right for a state to hold it’s primary? There must be a day in there somewhere that works for you…What’s your schedule like for next wednesday at 11:00?
    –Civil Disobedience

    I’m busy that day. Of course, as a Missourian, my vote doesn’t count anyway (according to the Hillary camp).

    On a less sarcastic note, I’m 100% in favor of a truly national primary. In fact, my solutions to this entire sideshow:

    1. Publicly financed elections — This would take most of the influence of $$ out of elections at the least.

    2. Intent-to-run announcements to be made by all who wish to run one (1) year before the election. No sooner, and folks have a two-week window to declare. After that, tough.

    3. Four months of pre-primary campaigning and debates.

    4. A national primary on the first Tuesday in March. It’s a national holiday (just like the real election should be) and every state is a winner-take-all match.

    5. Votes are counted, and the two winners go at it until November. Again, publicly funded, no 527 front groups, and the candidates get equal time on the teevee.

    6. November comes and, on the new national holiday, our next Prez is selected.

    Six easy steps that take the money out of it, shorten the insanely long campaign season, rids us of the ridiculous delegate counting, no more conventions, and a just generally stream-lined process.

    Of course, none of it will ever be done under any circumstances, but I can dream …

  • Mrs. Clinton is merely suggesting altenatives…that’s her job as a candidate slightly behind in the delegate count.

    Should the Obama campaign collapse prior to the convention, she has the right to talk about the rules. Mr. Obama used party rules as his reason for not supporting new primary elections in Florida and Michigan.

    I think Mr. Obama made a major mistake when he denounced Geraldine Ferraro, a great American who meant no malice, and in fact, tried to get her fired from her job by sending letters to her law firm employer and to a board of directors on which she serves; yet, he did not denounce his wrong Reverend Wright for making clear and outrages racist remarks from the pulpit…something he’s apparently been doing for a number of years and in front of Mr. Obama! Mr. Obama knows full-well that impressionable children attend services and I hope he knows Jesus tanght Love; not hate! I found it disturbing to watch the congregation dance to and cheer his sick and outrageous remarks!

    By ruthlessly attacking Mrs. Ferarro, a fine woman who has tirelessly supported civil rights, and not his racist spiritual advisor, Mr. “Not Right”, Mr. Obama proved he is at best niave, at worst socially stupid. I think he will rightously be rejected by the voters and the superdelegates will prudently reject his candidacy prior to the convention. That’s their right under the rules. The primary purpose, and reason for their creation is to put to rest a collapsed candidacy and to support a candidate who has a chance of winning the general election.

    Remember George McGovern! By the time the infamous Chicago convention rolled around, it was clear that McGovern could not win the general election but he had enough pledged delegates to win the Democratic nomination.

  • 16. On March 25th, 2008 at 11:24 am, Mary said:

    Apparently, no one on the left is giving any thought to where the Clinton supporters will go once this primary is over. I am so angry about the behavior of the Obama supporters that I am going to vote for Nader (or perhaps the Greens or Peace and Freedom). I don’t care whether McCain wins. We’ve survived Reagen and Bush and we can survive McCain too. I dislike McCain but I dislike you people even more. I will not stay in a party where folks behave the way you Obama supporters have.

    That’s OK. The legions of indies and Republicans who will vote for Obama in droves (but not Clinton) MORE than makes up for the few fair-weather democrats like you who think Clinton’s dirty tricks, back-door deals and flat-out lies somehow earns her street cred that outweighs the ill-will she deservedly generates.

    Besides, once Obama gets the nomination, the healing will begin. The screechier members of the not to mention the closest politician to mirror Clinton’s values and agenda. They’ll swallow their pride, take a breath, and realize what’s best for this nation is certainly not a Bush third term. They’re not all as bitter and shrewish as you.

    In other words, when Obama gets the nod, we really don’t need you.

  • “When Clinton states this as a fact, which it is, she is addressing the contention that she should drop out of the race because Obama’s number of pledged delegates mean she cannot be nominated.”

    No one has said she can’t be nominated. What has been said is that it is extremely likely that she cannot win the popular vote total, state total, or number of pledged delegates (without convincing delegates to disenfranchise thousands of voters.) and that, due to the near impossibility that she could win by any of these metrics, the only way for her to win would be through the support of Superdelegates.

    Further, it has been said that based on the expected effect this would have on the support for the party AND her as the nominee, she should put party and country before ego and drop out now, helping to ensure a Democratic victory in November.

    “If Obama’s delegates can be swayed by anything Sean Astin says, then perhaps Obama shouldn’t be the candidate.”

    Yeah, I agree. In fact, I’m not even sure why we bothered having primaries or caucuses in the first place, we should have just consulted the Eye of Sauron – I’m positive Clinton would have won that nomination process.

    “Apparently, no one on the left is giving any thought to where the Clinton supporters will go once this primary is over.”

    Well, the reasonable, mature, progressive, and sane ones will support Obama. The Republican, irrational, immature, self-pitying, batshit-crazy ones will probably vote for Nader (or perhaps the Greens or Peace and Freedom). They probably don’t even care if McCain wins!

    “I am so angry about the behavior of the Obama supporters that I am going to vote for Nader (or perhaps the Greens or Peace and Freedom). I don’t care whether McCain wins.”

    Well…..There you go.

    “We’ve survived Reagen and Bush and we can survive McCain too.”

    The motto of the Clinton candidacy: “We could survive this.”

  • Valiant effort, Edward, but Mary and Greg were lost to the indoctrination long ago.

    Mary likes to portray herself as a loyal Democrat who’s been recently turned off by Obama supporters, but she’s been a diehard Clinton Cultist for a long time now. A quick search of the archives shows that she’s been threatening to leave the party if Obama wound up being the nominee since mid-February:

    I will never vote for Obama. If Clinton is not nominated, I will vote for Ralph Nader or perhaps just not vote. I am disgusted by the abandonment of critical analysis on the blogs in favor of support for a man who is not held to the same standard that Clinton is. I don’t like having Obama shoved down my throat by enthusiastic supporters who think that winning blacks and talking hope overcomes support for Lieberman, abandonment of gays, espousing Republican talking points about social security, and unworkable health care reform plans. This man isn’t wonderful — he is a cautious, relatively conservative Chicago politician with a weak record in the Senate and good speaking skills. That’s all. The rest is hype.

    http://www.thecarpetbaggerreport.com/archives/14565.html#comment-380267

  • Make that early February — this comment from Mary was posted a few days before Super Tuesday.

    I am sick of this campaign and very disappointed by my party. I hope Obama is nominated because then I can vote for Ralph Nader with a clear conscience.

    http://www.thecarpetbaggerreport.com/archives/14463.html#comment-375701

    Mary’s been threatening to take her ball and go home for a long while now. She’s just inventing new excuses for an old plan.

  • As a middle-class democratic from Indiana, I am very upset to see the Clinton camp go to these lengths to get the nomination. This is exactly the kinds of politics called Clinton Spin. It’s a method of personal destruction of their opponent, telling of stories in ways that are untrue (aka misspeaking) and of using their “vetted” (aka political entrenched) methods to get what they want.

    In this instance, they are damaging the party for an election they cannot win.

    We had 8 years of the Clinton’s hearings, impeachment, scandals, etc.

    True change = Obama, who can barely talk about the issues because of the berage of negative personal attacks from the Clinton camp.

  • Al Giordano at thefield.com reports that Obama’s Texas delegates are getting robocalls from the Clinton campaign. Sounds pretty pro-active to me.

  • On what planet does a robocall from the opposition’s campaign work on pledged delegates, who are already their candidate’s strongest supporters? It’s cheap, it’s impersonal and it’s condescending–pretty much how the whole Clinton campaign has operated. This, like so much of what comes out of her campaign, will simply harden opposition against her.

  • Ah Yes The Fog Of The Clintons

    The god old Orwellian Trick

    In the end the Party would announce that two and two made five, and you would have to believe it. It was inevitable that they should make that claim sooner or later: the logic of their position demanded it. Not merely the validity of experience, but the very existence of external reality was tacitly denied by their philosophy.

  • Clinton should be worried that Obama will go after HER pledged delegates if she tries this. He’s a hell of a lot more likely to succeed in getting them to switch than she is…

  • It seems strange that no one seems to consider the obvious. Clinton will be too old to run 8 years from now. But McCain will be too old in four years to run again. Clinton’s best chance for becoming president will be if Obama losses in November and McCain is still in Iraq four years from now. If you don’t think the Clintons are thinking about this, think again.

  • You know, Charles @#68, You’ve reminded me of something I’ve been thinking about for a long while. I’m wondering just what kind (or how much, really) of a fu mess the Bushies will leave behind for the incoming Democrat, and if it will be so horrendous, whoever is elected will not be able to be elected to a second term, because of fallout.

    I realize this sounds a bit paranoid, but having seen how this administration works, I think it could happen.

  • It looks like Hillary is thinking if I’m not going to win than Obama is not going to win.

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