Clinton campaign: ‘We can’t wait to get to March 4’

By any reasonable measure, today is a pretty important day in the Democratic presidential race. Generally called the “Chesapeake Primary,” Dems (and independents) will vote today in Virginia, Maryland, and the District of Columbia. Obama is considered the favorite in all three.

But on the front page of the NYT today, the story isn’t about today’s three contests; it’s about two contests three weeks away.

Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton and her advisers increasingly believe that, after a series of losses, she has been boxed into a must-win position in the Ohio and Texas primaries on March 4, and she has begun reassuring anxious donors and superdelegates that the nomination is not slipping away from her, aides said on Monday.

Mrs. Clinton held a buck-up-the-troops conference call on Monday with donors, superdelegates and other supporters; several said afterward that she had sounded tired and a little down, but determined about Ohio and Texas.

They also said that they had not been especially soothed, and that they believed she might be on a losing streak that could jeopardize her competitiveness in those states.

“She has to win both Ohio and Texas comfortably, or she’s out,” said one superdelegate who has endorsed Mrs. Clinton, and who spoke on condition of anonymity to share a candid assessment. “The campaign is starting to come to terms with that.” Campaign advisers, also speaking privately in order to speak plainly, confirmed this view.

Alan Patricof, one of Clinton’s national finance chairmen, added, “[W]e can’t wait to get to March 4.”

The meaning of the comment is almost literal — today’s travel schedule for Clinton includes three stops, not in any of today’s contests, or in any state that votes in February, but rather, in Texas.

In other words, the firewall has already been identified, and is in the process of being fortified.

The campaign apparently doesn’t feel as if it has a lot of choice. The NYT noted that “several” superdelegates who have pledged their support to Clinton conceded yesterday that they are “wavering” in light of Obama’s victories over the weekend, and expected success today. (If Obama wins all three of today’s contests, he’ll have won seven out of seven in post-Super Tuesday states.)

It’s a strategy fraught with risk. If Clinton loses every single contest between Super Tuesday and the end of February, the campaign will, in effect, say, “Those losses don’t count; we’re focused on Ohio and Texas.” (And if she wins any of those contests, after lowering expectations, it’s a pleasant surprise.)

And if all of this sounds kind of familiar to you, it’s because we’ve seen a related strategy on the other side of the aisle: Rudy Giuliani had blown leads in several of the early contests, but consistently argued that those defeats were irrelevant because he was focused on Florida. Clinton appears to be attempting a similar approach to justifying a series of setbacks, though there are important differences: 1) Clinton will finish a competitive second in every February defeat, while Giuliani was losing to Ron Paul; 2) Clinton may actually wins a February contest or two; and 3) Clinton’s firewall states may actually come through for her.

Nevertheless, the broader strategy is at least similar. Every time Giuliani lost a state, he said, “Florida.” Every time Clinton loses in February, she’ll say, “Texas and Ohio.” It’s all about minimizing the impact of defeats, and focusing attention on the future, because the present isn’t going well.

Whether any of this can actually work, of course, remains to be seen.

Comparing Hilary Clinton with Rudy Guiliani is ridiculous. She is tied with Obama at this point, not lagging behind having never won a single primary. The continuing attempt to portray her as a loser so that people will not vote for her is transparent. Why don’t you just let people make up their own minds instead of trying to point them towards Obama?

  • Mary,

    Here we go again. CB was simply comparing Hillary’s “firewall strategy” with Rudy’s; it’s a valid comparison. By the way, she IS losing. Wake up!

  • If Clinton loses every single contest Super Tuesday and March 4…

    I think you meant “if Clinton loses every single contest between Super Tuesday and March 4…”

    Because if she loses all of the contests on March 4th she’s done.

    I might even go so far as to say that if she loses Ohio on March 4th she’s done. It’s the first primary in a real battleground state where the voting hasn’t been meddled with by legislators and the Democratic Party (as in Florida). The governor has already endorsed her, and apparently John Glenn is going to endorse her today. We’ve got an aging population (except around our various college campuses, of course), and it’s a state she should win demographically. So if she loses here, she might as well be out – it’ll be a huge embarrassment if nothing else.

  • It isn’t over until you count ALL of the votes, including large states with lots of people in them. Hillary’s so-called firewall strategy is nothing like Rudy’s but linking their names together is a propaganda technique. I get so sick of the Obama enthusiasts and their win “by any means necessary” approach to elections — another strategy just like the conservatives. Obama may be a gentleman politician but his followers are not. There — how does that feel?

  • I have nothing but respect for Senator Clinton. She’s been, by all accounts, a competent senator who does a good job representing her constituents. I’m proud of her as this country’s first viable female candidate for President; her seriousness and obvious competency is a wonderful representation of the ability of women all over the country to compete and thrive in American society as equals.

    That said, I’m hoping with all my heart that Obama wins the nomination.I am still deeply disturbed by Clinton’s vote to allow Bush to prosecute war in Iraq based on shaky logic and falsehoods that even I saw through — as a thoughtful decision-maker, she worries me — and worse, her refusal to publicly admit her mistake or today vow to bring our soldiers home from Bush’s vanity war immediately. She also voted, more recently, to allow Bush to decide when to push the button on Iran, which is also, clearly, not threatening to the security of the United States.

    We don’t need another warmonger in the presidency.

    I am also concerned that should Clinton win the Democratic nomination, she stands a good chance of losing to the Republican candidate purely because she’s a hated Clinton. If she does win in November, I worry that the Republicans will keep her so bogged down in “scandals” that she will not be able to discharge her duties with competence and thoughtfulness, but will make her decisions as a reactionary. The idea of Clinton as president fills me with doubt and, frankly, pessimism.

    Obama strikes me as competent, bright, idealistic and realistic, and he doesn’t come with a ton of Clinton baggage. He’s been clear from the start about where he stands on Bush’s criminal war and on how he plans to address challenges on the foreign front. To use a cliche that’s already tired (but true, so true!) he gives me hope for the future. After more than seven years of Bush’s terrible, over-the-cliff leadership, hope is what American needs.

    As a Democrat, I’ll support my party’s nominee. But I’ll be a lot more cheerful about it if that nominee is Obama.

  • “Hillary’s so-called firewall strategy is nothing like Rudy’s…”

    Really? Show us an important difference.

  • It feels like your grasping at straws Mary, to be honest. I’ve already given Clinton my primary vote and even I have to admit that Clinton’s March strategy is uncomfortably similar to the Rudy Firewall.

  • “I get so sick of the Obama enthusiasts and their win “by any means necessary” approach to elections”

    where are you getting this from? imho, obama supporters are engaged in a very positive campaign focusing on issues and style. I don’t think they are using “any means necessary” at all. in fact, based upon news reports over the last few days, i think it is hillary who is using “any means necessary”…….

  • Uh, CB isn’t Andrew Sullivan. This blog has had several admiring posts about both candidates, and while CB certainly likes Obama, I wouldn’t call him an Obama follower.

  • Both Guiliani and Clinton are/were banking on big state victories. That their campaigns were parallel in that respect, and that they’re both New Yorkers, doesn’t imply identity across the board, nor does saying so imply an effort to portray her as a loser. The fact is she has lost recently and is “risking it all” on Ohio and Texas — plus a massive effort to round up super delegates whether that effort damages the party or not.

  • i’m voting for hillary becuz she is old news and heading towards has been status, which is what i like. gee, i wonder if she’ll do granny porn when this is all done.
    ding song the witch is dead.
    hahahahaha
    the beak is gay!!!

  • Mary,

    Don’t bother with arguments. If you disagree with the Obamites, you are fundamentally stupid. Only their opinion has merit.

  • I don’t see the difference, Mary.

    Rudi wrote off campaign losses by saying, “we’ll win such-and-such.” Hillary is writing off campaign losses by saying, “we’ll win such-and-such.”

    Rudi wrote off anticipated losses by citing, “his firewall.” Hillary is writing off anticipated losses by citing “her firewall.”

    Other than political affiliation, tense (past vs. present), and gender—where is the difference, Mary?

    As for “firewall,” I think a more “apt” phrase is called for. Perhaps something like “Last Stand” or “Final Redoubt.”

    If she doesn’t win any of today’s contests—and especially if she gets her head handed to her on a platter, as a few of the polls indicate, then one might start thinking along the lines of “Appomattox.” Or “Alamo.” Maybe even “Saigon.”

  • Any of you Hillary Cult followers who think her and her husband do not take a win at all costs attitude are smoking more than her exhaust. The Clintons do only what is good for the Clintons, period, end of story.

    I am so sick of the 20 years of Bush/Clinton, and some of you fools potentially want to see 36 years of it. Hillary for 8 and then Jeb Bush for another 8, are you kidding me?

    Stop the cycle. Destroy the witch and her other family, the Bushs’

  • Mary isn’t arguing with us, because she’s not addressing our points.

    She says “It’s not over until all the votes are counted” but I don’t see anyone claiming that it is.

    She says she’s sick of Obamaites and their “win by any means necessary” strategy without giving examples of what provoked her to make that judgment.. I really hope she isn’t drawing an equivalency between comparing Hillary and Rudy’s basic electoral strategies, and Rovian tactics like push-polling, rumor-mongering?

    I think most of us Obama supporters (barring Mr. Flintstone, thehotdog, and other people who need to be quickly purged from this blog) are being quite civil and willing to debate up front. But Clinton supporters are getting increasingly thin-skinned here. I understand you feel outnumbered but that’s what happens sometimes. Just ignore the jerks and debate with the reasonable folk.

  • On second though, Fred Flintstone isn’t making any supportive statements of Obama at all. By his user name I would guess him to be a neocon 🙂

  • You want to google something try Exelon/Obama or Rezco/Obama over a million hits of his scandals. Let the investigations begin. Good luck Barack

  • After 8 potential losses in a row, Hillary clearly must win March 4 in a big way. That does not mean a squeeker in Ohio and Texas, she must win them both by more the 10% if she wants to close the delegate gap.

    Thing is, this is not like California and New York where Obama was little known and had only a week to campaign. He has a month of campaigning to turn the tide in Ohio and Texas. He will at least keep it close.

    Good to know that Hillary is throwing in the towel on the other states before March 4. What sense does that make?

  • I’m not a Clinton supporter, but I can certainly understand how those who do support her would read this much the way most of us do when we hear comparisons between Dems and Neville Chamberlain, or when Jonah Goldberg compares liberals to Nazis. Let’s be honest. Rudy is more polarizing than Hillary.

  • Mary and Jen — please stash the paranoia and make a case for you candidate. Whining doesn’t count.

  • Jim,

    1. There is no evidence Obama had any shady dealings with Rezco.

    2. Obama bluntly called his relationship with Rezco a mistake.

    3. Obama is returning all Rezco-related funding.

    There’s no scandal here. Obama has a huge number of supporters. Some of these supporters are going to be scum. This does not reflect badly on Obama.

  • If Team Clinton has the cash, then they should be putting some effort into winning the races before March 4th. But I guess those people don’t matter?

    Didn’t Obama put energy and money into every state?

    ——————————

    BTW, I recently went over Hillary’s two major speeches about Iraq, and I am less impressed than ever. Even in March of 2003 she was saying that Hussein “has also given aid, comfort, and sanctuary to terrorists, including Al Qaeda members”

    At that point in time Chalabi’s bogus “Prague meeting” story was pretty much 100% debunked and there was ZERO evidence showing any collaboration between al Qaeda and Iraq, which of course makes perfect sense since they were enemies. So basically Hillary was playing the same game Bush was. Tie Saddam to al Qaeda, and use the ignorance of the American people as a weapon against an old enemy.

    For all you Clinton supporters, please read the following and ask why it doesn’t merit an apology:

    I will take the President at his word that he will try hard to pass a UN resolution and will seek to avoid war, if at all possible.”

    – Senator Clinton, October 10, 2002

    By October of 2002 it was clear that Bush was not a man to be taken at his word. Only a foolish Democrat would say those words, or someone who expected to gain politically from the war.

    The Clintons have a lot of explaining to do with regards to Iraq.

    http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2008/02/02/6802/

  • This is just like Gulliani’s decline. Lose a state, claim it doesn’t matter, say you didn’t try because the state wasn’t important enough.

    Sorry, but we’ve had 6 days of election night, and the tie in nh was the only time Hillary was not on the losing end of the delegate count (she even lost nevada but claimed victory!!!)

    Her campaign is sinking fast. The house of Clinton is falling. It is Obama’s time.

  • I can certainly see why Clinton supporters would bristle at the comparison; however, it does have a fair amount of merit when discussion campaign strategy. Its about them both playing defense.

    What about how Super Tuesday? The campaign said that when millions of people finally got to vote, then things would become clear. They didn’t. So we heard a list of excuses. The campaign sounded confident going into Maine, having already disparaged LA because there are just so many black people there, but when that didn’t turn out like it was supposed to we heard (again) that caucuses are “undemocratic”.

    I have yet to hear…and i don’t read every campaign press release…anything along the lines of “we got beat, fair and square.” I’m not a fervent supporter of either candidate. However, i’m disturbed by the Clinton approach. I do not want a president who is convinced that every setback and every failing is someone else’s fault. Nor do i want a president who’s so quick to say that because someone didn’t see things her way they are irrelevant.

    Then again, just because you’re paranoid does not mean that everyone isn’t out to get you.

  • The Beak is an interesting character the Clintons will have to deal with sometime.

    I am not saying I am supporting Obama, but I despise the right wing machine just as much as I despise and am tired of the Clinton Machine. To me, there just isn’t much difference in the type of deception and power grab either side aims for.

    It is laughable how the Clinton’s year after year can beat the heII out their friends and base, and yet the friends and base keep coming back for more abuse, very similiar to battered wife syndrome.

    “Why do you stay with this guy (Clinton) after he continues to beat you???”…….”Well, because… I…I… I love him (them)……”

    Same thing. No difference. The Clinton cult followers are sheep. That’s not even the main reason.

    the main reason, is, seriously, aren’y you all tired of two families ruling us for 20 years and a potential 36 years? Those who say they are not can be dismissed as mentally not all there. Cmon, grow up. Putting your Partisanship over the good of the country shows a true lack of character and truely mind numbed robots.

  • Fred Flintstone,

    Dude, there are many reasons to oppose Hillary for president.

    Among the stupidest of those reasons is her LAST NAME. It doesn’t matter what family you come from. Judge the candidates on their merits, not their freaking family trees.

    The Clinton years were some of the most prosperous in history. They’re justified in showing it off. I’m a big time Obama supporter but if Bill were running against him I’d vote for Bill, as would most democrats. There’s no sense whining about a “dynasty ruling you” when you have the opportunity to kick them out every 4 years if they screw up.

  • I get so sick of the Obama enthusiasts and their win “by any means necessary” approach to elections — another strategy just like the conservatives.

    Mary –
    What are you talking about? What have Obama folks done that’s so sheisty? And what about the actual candidates? Hillary’s trying to have the Michigan delegates seated at the convention even though Obama wasn’t even on the ballot. If that’s not “by any means necessary,” I don’t know what is.
    “Give me a break.”

    Jim –
    And all this Rezko stuff is making you guys look desperate. The “scandal” has been picked and prodded for years and there’s no “there” there.

    You talk about how wicked the Obama supporters are. I haven’t seen many of us pushing non-scandals about the Clintons, like the crooked deal Clinton set up between his friend and the Kazakh DICTATOR. That deal makes Rezko look pretty insignificant. What else has Bill been up to over the last 7 years? He’s certainly managed to enrich himself doing something, and it’s not just from giving speeches.

    And why is Hillary refusing to release her tax returns until AFTER the nomination? I think we deserve to know what we’re getting before we nominate her.

    “Vetted” my you-know-what.

  • Tamlak @21 –

    The GOP turned a failed land deal by the Clintons into the crime of the century. They turned a heroic rescue by a Vietnam swiftboat captain into a campaign of lies and coverups.

    If you think they can’t take the Rezko stuff and make it look like Obama was signing his soul over to the Prince of Darkness himself, you haven’t been paying attention.

    That’s the one leg up that Clinton has on Obama – her “scandals” have been aired and her dirt dug so deep that there aren’t going to be any new revelations that no one has ever heard of. Obama, running on the “new kind of politics” platform runs a severe risk that his voting base will be turned off by the facts spun in just the “right” way.

    (Won’t stop me from voting for Obama in a couple of weeks, but I’m not going to be surprised if by the November elections he’s as covered in scandal and muck as the Clintons are now. I just hope his hardcore supporters are prepared for the slime and the filth they’re going to see.)

  • Tamalak,

    You just can’t see through your fog.

    You are so partisan that you have left your thought, vision, hopes and dreams at the hands of the Party, and your chance of honestly wanting what is for the best of the country is slipping or has already left you. You seem like whatever Howard Dean or The Beak lets you do is ok with you. You need to be thrown up against a wall, slapped around a little bit, and hopefully made to snap out of it, for your own good. Partisan Intervention, if you will.

    If you bring things down to the lowest common denominator, the typical slob voter, they see exactly that. The Joe Lunchbucket Slob trudging off to vote is tired of the Bush/Clintons and that is why she is dead witch walking..

    The educated and the well heeled among us, the wine and cheese liberals, can debate all they want about why she is the answer to all the world’s problems, but it is irrelevant. People don’t want that name or their counterparts, The Bush Family, in the White House anymore, period, end of story.

    Sorry to throw a cold bucket of water on you, but Barack will win, not because of what he says and does, but rather what people are just downright sick and tired of, and it is showing very clearly these days.

  • NonyNony (28): “That’s the one leg up that Clinton has on Obama – her “scandals” have been aired and her dirt dug so deep that there aren’t going to be any new revelations that no one has ever heard of.”

    Don’t be so sure. If you followed the US Attorney scandal closely, opposition research expert, Tim Griffin, was given the post in Arkansas without Senate confirmation. Speculation was that he would then be in a position to make baseless indictments. He’s gone, but the pattern remains. And those who think Obama is immune should keep this in mind as well, as Nony points out. The Chicago Tribune which covered the Rezko issue in the same way Wash Post did Abramoff, says there are unanswered questions, particularly about his purchase of his home.

  • I think when the Clinton faithful complain about Obama seeking to win “by any means necessary” they mean his shameful habit of appealing to a wide swath of the electorate and inspiring them to vote for him. The nerve!

    And, please note, if the Obama people really were as thin-skinned and petty as the Clinton folks would have us believe, they would’ve jumped all over a comment like “by any means necessary.” “What? You mean he’s a scary Negro like Malcolm X?! You mean he’s leading a violent revolution?!”

    Lucky for the conversation, the Obama people aren’t as far gone off the edge as the Clinton folks.

    As Tamalak said, please put away the pointless whining and the endless conspiracy theories, and make a positive case for your candidate.

    Go ahead. We’re all ears. You obviously believe passionately in your candidate. Please tell us why.

    You might persuade someone to join your side through that approach, but complaining about other people’s comments and wild-eyed conspiracy theories won’t.

  • That’s the one leg up that Clinton has on Obama – her “scandals” have been aired and her dirt dug so deep that there aren’t going to be any new revelations that no one has ever heard of.

    Nony – I don’t think you’ve been paying much attention.

    With Friends Like These …
    http://www.tnr.com/politics/story.html?id=076fd56f-4aca-4683-a9d1-3c55d748946e

    After Mining Deal, Financier Donated to Clinton
    http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/31/us/politics/31donor.html?ex=1359435600&en=23a4d96223965ebf&ei=5090&partner=rssuserland&emc=rss&pagewanted=all

    How much other stuff is out there? You know the Republicans are just sitting on it with the intention of using it in the general election. Voting for Clinton because there won’t be any new “revelations” is a seriously flawed approach.

  • The GOP turned a failed land deal by the Clintons into the crime of the century. They turned a heroic rescue by a Vietnam swiftboat captain into a campaign of lies and coverups.

    If you think they can’t take the Rezko stuff and make it look like Obama was signing his soul over to the Prince of Darkness himself, you haven’t been paying attention.

    Here’s the thing:

    The more blatantly the Republicans have to lie, and the more ferociously they have to spin their slime machine, the faster it will just melt down entirely. I have no doubt they’re going to attack Obama with the same fierceness they would use to go after Hillary, but he’s in a better position by far to beat off their attacks.

    People LIKE Obama. If someone tries to tell nasty lies about someone you like, you’ll quickly dig up the truth and spread it around, exposing the liar.

    People DISLIKE Hillary. If someone tries to tell nasty lies about someone you dislike, you’ll swallow it and grin.

  • I’m wondering what the threads are going to look like around here when the complexities of Texas Democratic electoral politics are unearthed.

    Good point. I’m betting that the Clinton people blame Coke Stevenson’s Senate loss to LBJ on the underhanded tactics of Obama supporters.

  • It’s a good strategy for Clinton, even if it’s a strategy of necessity,and really only superficially resembles the Giuliani strategy. She can lose everything between now and March 4th and if she can win Texas and Ohio, and then take Pennsylvania in April she would probably be the front runner at that point.

    Remember it ain’t over until it’s over. And the democratic nomination may not be over until the convention.

  • Get off the fainting couch, Mary. I thought it was reserved for Republicans. CB listed the important differences between HC and RG, discussing the ways that she is vastly more competitive than he was. It seems like you got so instantly outraged that you stopped reading before you got to that point.

  • I think the string of losses has drove some Clinton supporters off the precipice of sanity.

    You want to google something try Exelon/Obama or Rezco/Obama… -Jim

    You should proofread your smear. The correct spelling is Rezko.

    And with good ol’ Patty Fitz on the Rezko case, I wouldn’t worry too much. Look out for an obstruction of justice charge, and then it’ll fade from memory, just like Ftiz’s other recent high profile case.

    Fitz knows which way the wind is blowing; he can be bought, and Rezko has the cash.

    (This, of course, is pure speculation, but Fitz did such a bang up job on the Plame case that I can assume only one of two options: he’s incompetent or for sale. At least we knew a crime was committed then; with this, we’ve just got smoke.)

  • Re #28: The very best way that any candidate can neutralize the muck thrown his/her way is 1) pre-empt with the facts (if you can see the muck coming), or 2) to immediately (ie as Kerry did not) address and debunk. As many times as needed. Make sure you or your spokespeople get on all of the news networks, in the print media, on the internet, so that everyone can hear/read.

  • I’m not sure why telegraphing the fact that you are basically sitting out today’s primaries is “a good strategy.” If you are on the ground in the Potomac states today, and Hillary is making the rounds in Texas how motivated are you to GOTV? IF you are a voter, how motivated are you to be relegated second-class status?

    That can be the campaign’s final stand to be sure and their strategy, but they should hit all the notes along the way…or at least act like it.

    Comparing this to Rudy is certainly exaggerating things, but it is apt.

  • That’s a good point Mr. Furious.

    If I were a Hillary supporter in one of the “February” states I’d be discouraged and insulted by this. Putting in my support for her, and she dismisses me as irrelevent? I’d probably stay home. Maybe that’s one of the things driving Obama’s big wins this month so far.

  • Rezco is NOT a closed book people. He goes on trial later this month, and while he might not have anything on Obama, that doesn’t mean he might not offer him up in a deal, or that the connections won’t be revisited heading into March 4.

  • Mary – I think most readers of this blog would use their critical thinking skills – pointing out that a similar “firewall” strategy was a disaster for Giuliani does not mean CB is *equating* candidate Clinton with candidate Giuliani. Rudy was mocked for months here for his actual positions, which probably plays a bigger part in his candidacy collapsing.

    I’m surprised that Clinton is so clearly conceding defeat in todays contests… it’s ceding more momentum to Obama. And I would argue Obama does well given time to work the crowds. On the other hand, Ohio is where elections go to die.

  • Excellent point, Mr Furious. Especially when you remember that these primaries are doling out delegates on a proportional basis. Hillary may realize she can’t win, but she should still be in there competing hard, because a 55-45 loss will get her more delegates than another 65-35 blowout.

  • If Giuliani had won Florida, he would have been ahead. Thing is, he didn’t.

    Clinton is trying to go 0-10 in three weeks and then bounce back with a resounding victory on March 4th. She is counting on lowering expectations in the intervening weeks to shield her from the aura of a loser. It might work, but the comparison to Giuliani is valid.

    The “vetted” argument goes nowhere. There is plenty of ammunition about the Clintons past and present conduct to feed a scandal machine. Doubtless they will come up with stuff about Obama as well, but as someone pointed out above, it’s not as easy to smear a candidate who bears a positive message and fights clean. Clinton is known as a dirty fighter, and she will be easier to smear. Bottom line, the “vetted” argument is that we should support a candidate whom we already know is a gray, morally compromised party hack, rather than someone who might be less perfect than he looks (and acts). Better cynical than disappointed, in this view.

    I would rather hope and be disappointed if it comes to that. What kind of people are we if we reject a candidate because we can believe in them?

  • Fred Flintstone,

    Battered wife syndrome? The Beak is Gay? How dare you, you insensitive jerk! Go away from here. Nobody wants you here.

  • Well it isn’t a secret anymore, IF Hillary doesn’t carry Ohio she wont get the nomination in a fair way. Obama has already more votes, more states, more delegates and in each and every poll he is a favorite to win against McCain. Hillary can claim more “committed Super Delegates”, but nothing else. How “committed” these delegates are after a potential loss in Ohio is anybodies guess, my guess is: Not much.

  • Returning to my point at 46, I think this shows that the Clinton gambit here is even more of a reach than Guiliani’s was.

    The states that Guiliani skipped on the way to his Florida firewall were, I believe, largely winner-take-all. If he wasn’t going to finish first in those, there just wasn’t any point — delegate-wise — in waging a fight at all. But Clinton can still get real results with a close second-place finish in her states, by contrast, and therefore writing them off so publicly is an even riskier move.

    Odd strategy. But then again, Mark Penn has never been known for smart political thinking.

  • Hillary can claim more “committed Super Delegates”, but nothing else. How “committed” these delegates are after a potential loss in Ohio is anybodies guess, my guess is: Not much.

    From today’s NYT story, it seems they’re not committed much at all. They already have a finger in the wind, and if they see the tide turning to Obama, they’ll jump ship.

  • Mary (#4),

    I am one Obama supporter whom I hope you would consider a gentleman. I agree that comparing Clinton’s current situation to Rudy Guiliani’s is ridiculous. Clinton is locked in a near-tie in deligates with Obama by winning large, core Democratic states and has a chance to win additional large states like Texas and Ohio.

    That said, Obama does have certain advantages at the moment due to his strong performances since Super Tuesday. Like it or not, momentum might begin to be a factor in people’s decision making. And unlike Super Tuesday where Obama didn’t have a chance to spend time in each state, he will be able to do that for March 4.

    Honestly, I am not sure if he can overcome Clinton’s natural advantages in Texas and Ohio, but I believe he has a chance.

  • I know that for the last 7 years I’ve found the experience of being discounted and put aside by my government quite something and I would imagine voters, who by the way are getting (for the first time in modern memory) the opportunity to choose the nominee, are finding the experience of being discounted and ignored by Clinton quite telling as well.

    Obama is treating us all as if we mattered, even in the places his polling told him he wasn’t going to win.

    And I’m ready for a President who believes that I matter, and count for something.

  • Clinton supporters have repeatedly announced that most of the states Obama has won “don’t count” for one reason or another. I wonder what’s going to happen now that she has to win Texas of all states in order to remain competitive.

  • I’ll say this before and I’ll say it again. This is the DLC strategy at play here. It hasn’t really worked at all. If Hils wants to win she has to take it Obama and this is not the way to do it. This just tells me she’s running without a plan.

    Regarding Hils 20 point leads in Texas and Ohio. Obama’s pluses (oratory and message) have shown he can negate that or reduce it enough that he can make significant gains in delegates even if all the supposed demographic factors the hurt him are in play. If I were Hils I wouldn’t be relying on that to carry me.

  • bcinaz # 53 – I couldn’t have said it better himself. Obama’s definitely winning when it comes to class.

  • #53 and #54, very well spoken. You get it.

    53, you said….”and I’m ready for a President who believes that I matter, and count for something.”

    That says it all, and the Clinton Camp can never say that without people laughing at them, because she only does what it is in her best interest and everyone knows it.

    Battered Wife Syndrome may be a bit harsh, but it describes it perfectly. If you don’t like it, then look at yourself in the mirror. It’s not my problem, it is yours.

    53 and 54 may be nicer about it, but we all said the same thing.

  • What has Obama/Obamites done that’s so shysty?

    Trashing the only successful Democratic Presidency in a generation with the flyer he put out regarding the success/failure of Democrats down ballot. Before anyone says that it was factual so it doesn’t count…There were many positive factual occurrances during the 90’s too but he would rather tarnish the Democratic banner. Why bring this up at all?

    Playing the race card regarding Hillary’s MLK comment when Hillary was actually praising MLK for his vision while also giving credit to LBJ who put the infrastructure in place to make the vision a reality.

    Bringing out Harry and Louise doppelgangers against mandates to UHC. Why parrot Republican talking points.

    Calling his health care plan Universal when it’s not. This is an absolute lie from the lips of Obama. Who can deny this?

    Missing more senate votes than any of the other candidates.

    Saying that he voted incorrectly by hitting the wrong button. Republicans will have a field day with this when we’re thinking of putting him in charge of our nuclear weapons.

    Pretending he’s above politics when he’s obviously not. Hillary is honest about being a politician, Obama hypocritically pretends he’s this transformative presence. All you have to do is “come to Obama”, “have an epiphany and vote for Obama”, “We are the one”. If you don’t think this is shysty, you should watch some of the televangelists do this and then try and differentiate Obama’s approach. Hard to see a difference.

    Running for President with little or no accomplishments after one year in the Senate before he started his candidacy. Sure he’s done stuff for Chicago but what has he done for the country? This is just another guy relying on popularity to jump to the front of the line.

    This was just off the top of my head. Before anyone comes back with “well Hillary did …” let’s be clear that the question was what has Obama done that’s shysterish. We’ve already established that Hillary is no angel, but Obamites are trying to pretend that he’s been Mr. Clean.

  • Steve’s post is in no way biased against Clinton. Pointing out that allowing your opponent to win a very long string of small victories might not be wise strategy, is just a statement of fact seasoned with a very reasonable opinion. If this is an example of Clinton abuse, then Hillary had best get herself to a nunnery; She ain’t as tough as she claims.

    Avoiding the MSM like the plague, I wonder just how severe is the ‘anti-clinton’ bias. Is there somewhere I can find verifiable text(I have no video capability) of this bias?

  • Trashing the only successful Democratic Presidency in a generation with the flyer he put out regarding the success/failure of Democrats down ballot. Before anyone says that it was factual so it doesn’t count…There were many positive factual occurrances during the 90’s too but he would rather tarnish the Democratic banner. Why bring this up at all?

    To me, this is one of Obama’s best points. Clinton did not expand the party and, in fact, kept himself afloat after ’94 by “triangulating” himself in opposition to liberal Dems in Congress. That’s a demonstrable fact. Obama has the ability to bring in new voters and translate that into downticket success.

    Playing the race card regarding Hillary’s MLK comment when Hillary was actually praising MLK for his vision while also giving credit to LBJ who put the infrastructure in place to make the vision a reality.

    This was a low point, but both sides got ugly here.

    Bringing out Harry and Louise doppelgangers against mandates to UHC. Why parrot Republican talking points.

    Calling his health care plan Universal when it’s not. This is an absolute lie from the lips of Obama. Who can deny this?

    Are you really going to get this upset over semantics?

    Missing more senate votes than any of the other candidates.

    I’m sorry — how is this evidence of underhanded campaign tactics??

    Saying that he voted incorrectly by hitting the wrong button. Republicans will have a field day with this when we’re thinking of putting him in charge of our nuclear weapons.

    His comment was stupid. As was yours about the nukes. (Talk about feeding the GOP talking points.)

    Pretending he’s above politics when he’s obviously not. Hillary is honest about being a politician, Obama hypocritically pretends he’s this transformative presence. All you have to do is “come to Obama”, “have an epiphany and vote for Obama”, “We are the one”. If you don’t think this is shysty, you should watch some of the televangelists do this and then try and differentiate Obama’s approach. Hard to see a difference.

    Oh my God! He’s a politician!

    Running for President with little or no accomplishments after one year in the Senate before he started his candidacy. Sure he’s done stuff for Chicago but what has he done for the country? This is just another guy relying on popularity to jump to the front of the line.

    Judging from this comment, can I assume you’re a Biden supporter? Because the exact same points could be made against Clinton.

  • g8grl 58 –

    The Clintons have got you thinking that a so-called mandate is the equivalent of universal health care. It’s not. They’re the ones who are lying.

    And the Clintons obviously played the race card, MLK comment or not. Likening Obama’s SC victory to Jesse Jackson? I mean, please.

    Obama has every right to talk about the Clinton presidency, which was a disaster for the Democratic party as a whole. Bill cost us the Senate, the House, governorships, state legislatures… And besides, Hillary’s running on the Clinton years, so it seems a little ridiculous to declare them off limits.

    You’ve got a point on the Harry and Louise mailer. That made me cringe. Luckily it was an isolated incident.

    Hillary’s just as guilty, if not more so, of using GOP talking points. She called his plan to raise the cap on Social Security a “trillion-dollar tax hike,” and questioned his stance on the Second Amendment. She also said he wasn’t tough enough on crime because he doesn’t support draconian mandatory minimum sentences. And to top it off, she’s proposed a law that would ban flag burning!

    Obama’s been a legislator for longer than Hillary and has gotten several important pieces of legislation passed. See here: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/01/03/AR2008010303303.html

    What exactly has Hillary done besides be a competent Senator from NY and vote for the Iraq War? What did she do that was so great as First Lady besides kill the possibility of “universal” healtcare for a generation?
    Obama’s not the only Illinois legislator to have hit the wrong button. And he did it what, 6 times out of 4,000 votes?

  • If I were a Hillary supporter in one of the “February” states I’d be discouraged and insulted by this.

    I’m one of those February state voters and I happily went out and gave Clinton my vote today in Virginia. I was neither discouraged or insulted. I voted today the same as I have in every primary and election since 1972. I see it as my right and civic duty, one person one vote. I don’t need a candidate to convince me to vote.

  • Gary, Give us a few reasons you voted for Clinton and why?

    Everyone else…. Why does everyone want to sweep The Beak under the rug? Why is everyone afraid to talk about him? He is the one thing the Republicans have in their October surprise pocket and the faster we start strategizing on how to stop the negatives on The Beak fiasco, the better. If we do not, all this talk of Obama or Clinton is a waste of time, because McCain will roll in a landslide, and you’ll be able to thank the Clinton Machine for that one.

    Talk about the 800lb Gorilla in the room? We all see it, but we’re all so terrified to talk about it.

  • For those of you Obama followers who are attacking Hillary and anyone with the nerve to stand up for her, please remember that we are all part of a bigger picture and need to keep it real because no matter who wins the nomination, we need to come together by November or else it’s 4 more years of Bush policy!

    Obama isn’t going to win ALL of the independents, just because he is getting some of them to come out of the woodwork for the Caucuses, what about all of the paranoid red state hill-billies who WILL come out in November to keep him from winning the general election for saying that he would sit down with leaders of countries such as Iran, North Korea, Cuba, Venezuela and Syria during his first year in office.

    Just because those people are not rallying around Clinton like some other independents are for Obama, doesn’t mean they wouldn’t rather see her in office.

    Believe it or not, most people in this country don’t want somebody that is too liberal.. don’t be taken by Caucus results where independents vote!

  • Greg #64, you ignorant boob…. you said, “…..what about all of the paranoid red state hill-billies who WILL come out in November….”

    You are exactly the reason why we stand to lose again. Us Wine and Cheesers who honestly believe there is nothing to our country besides the east and west coast is slowly killing the true Democrat Party.

    You sirr, are a cancer in this party, and whether you know it or not, your good intentions rub many voters the wrong way and head in the other direction.

    So, for example, you are all for helping the homeless……just as long as you don’t have to help them, smell them, or step over them in front of your building….isn’t that right, hot shot?

  • Will Texas be a firewall for Clinton? I saw something interesting on Texas today:

    http://blog.texansforobama.com/showDiary.do?diaryId=751

    It is by an Obama supporter so maybe it is all wishful thinking. Anyone know much about Texas to determine if there is anything to this? The gist is that the Texas primary is really a bizarre mix of primary and caucus and the caucus portion favors Obama. If this person is correct, Clinton can’t count on Texas to save her campaign if she is behind in delegates.

  • Obama isn’t going to win ALL of the independents, just because he is getting some of them to come out of the woodwork for the Caucuses, what about all of the paranoid red state hill-billies who WILL come out in November to keep him from winning the general election for saying that he would sit down with leaders of countries such as Iran, North Korea, Cuba, Venezuela and Syria during his first year in office.

    No one’s saying Obama will get ALL independents, just that he’ll get more of them than Hillary in a head-to-head with McCain. That’s conjecture, of course, but one that’s borne out in all the extant polling, the primary results so far, and all the political studies of independents and this race, etc.

    And the “red-state hill-billies” you’re referring to absolutely despise Clinton and will come out in just as strong a showing, or stronger, to vote against her. That’s a moot point. No Dem will win them over.

    But on your main point, yes, we all need to come together in November. No one is attacking Clinton supporters for standing up for her — in fact, I’ve rarely seen any of the Clinton supporters do that. We’re taking issue with the Clinton supporters who feel the need to make their case by knocking down Obama which, as you note, is counterproductive to the main goal of winning in November.

    Again, Clinton fans — please feel free to make a positive case for your candidate rather than a negative one against Obama.

    We’re still waiting.

  • TR: again with the well Hillary does it too points. I will say again, Hillary doesn’t pretend she’s above it all, Obama does.

    re: semantics…all we have of Obama is his words. Certainly very little action, nothing controversial once he was in the Senate, so his sematics are weighted heavily. Still without the sematics issue, Obama still trotted out H & L which is anti-UHC and anti-single payer. This equates to anti Democratic party goals…how does he propose he gets UHC or eventually single payer after this flyer?).

    re: OMG he’s a politician. Yes he is, thank you. He is not a transformative being, not an inspiration to all. Point being he’s pretending (shyster like) that he’s above politics.

    re: nukes. I can spout Republican talking points, I’m not running on the Democratic ticket pretending to be a uniter not a divider. If you think the Republicans haven’t thought of this point without my input, you’re out of your mind.

    re: triangulating…what do you think Obama is doing appealing to moderate Repubs and indies and dissing Democrats? Pot meet kettle.

  • It has been clear for some time that the nomination was going to come down to OH,TX and PA. If Hillary takes all three she’ll be the nomiee regardless of exact delegate counts (superdelegates are not going to go for someone who lost NY,CA,OH,TX, PA, and yes FL and MI). The question is whether Obama’s February wins will help him in those three states. If not, they are ultimately meaningless. So yes, this was a strategy forced on Hillary by her failure to put the nomination away on Super Tuesday. It is also her path to the nomination. But she’ll need a sweep of those three states. The question is not whether those three states will giver her the nomination if she wins them-they will. The question is can she win them?

  • CHEEZBURGER,

    Tone it down? I’d like to, but I am so sick and tired of that holier than thou attitude that has pushed good people farther and farther away from the Democratic Party. Guys like that are a cancer to this fine party, and it is no wonder so many have left.

    The DNC and the Gregs of this party all need to look at themselves and see how they have dismantled this party.

    We all need to face it, and The Beak is one who needs to get tossed, and fast. Inner circle knows full well who The Beak is.

    We all think the religious right has “hijacked” the Repubs, but why can’t we saee that we are being “hijacked” and “raped” by our own.

    We’ve got big problems, you people.

  • I really don’t know who The Beak is. But I’m certainly curious. Anyone? Is it James Carville?

  • g8girl: Triangularization doesn’t mean what you think it means. This was the explicit strategy that sleazeball adviser Dick Morris came up with for Bill Clinton in the wake of the ’94 election so that he could show he was still “relevant” to the debate, by positioning himself in opposition to liberal Democrats in Congress and the Gingrich goons. (I must’ve missed the part where Obama was “dissing Democrats.” Evidence please — aside from comments about his opponent?)

    I’d try to engage the rest of your argument, g8girl, but you’re so far off the rails it looks like that would be impossible. I have never said Obama was a “transformative figure” or “not a politician” any of your other bizarre points you’re intent on pushing back against, so I’ll just let you continue the debate you’re having with the imaginary straw man in your head.

    One more time — please make a positive case for Hillary Clinton. You seem to be very much for her, g8girl. So, please detail for us, in as much time and length as you’d like, why you are for her. Not why you are against Obama. Why you are for Clinton.

    I really don’t understand why this is such a hard thing to ask. The Clinton supporters are clearly here, clearly in favor of their candidate, but for some bizarre reason are incapable of making those reasons known to the rest of us.

    I’m asking sincerely. Can any Clinton supporter here make a case on behalf of Hillary Clinton that is not simply an attack on Obama or his supporters?

    Please?

  • Cheezburger @ 61:

    “Clintons…They’re the ones who are lying.” Fine…then be honest, there are two lying on this point and Obama is one of them and in terms of degree, Hillary’s plan is closer to UHC.

    TR: regarding being a Biden supporter? Who knows, he’s no longer running.
    re: “please feel free to make a positive case for your candidate rather than a negative one against Obama.” Cheezburger was the one who asked what about Obama was sheisty, can’t answer that and still be positive about Obama. However, I am responding with substantive problems with Obama’s candidacy don’t dismiss my comments by pretending nothing was said.

    I’ll just throw this positive point in about Hillary since this (narrowly, specifically) is what you’re waiting for: if you read the policies of both Obama and Clinton they’re pretty close. Hillary goes further though by having plans, steps to take in order to get these policies in place. Obama just has some idea that, by talking to Republicans, he can get them to support his policy. What if, as historically has been the case, Republicans don’t fall in line. What if they fight every progressive, Democratic move until the end of time? That’s their history. What then?

  • I think people who are drawing contrast between Hillary and Rudy by pointing out that she’s less evil than he is, or that she’s already won a lot of states, or whatever, are missing the point. The strategy of conceding states in advance and pouring all your resources into one “firewall” or last stand. They are themselves defining a loss in either Texas or Ohio or even probably a tie in one of them as the end of their campaign. Just like Rudy had no choice but to concede post-Fla, I don’t see how Clinton couldn’t. In the event of a loss in either state, she’d find herself down probably 150+ delegates at that point with little-to-know chance to catch Obama and the superdelegates have already started to signal that they’ll coalesce around him in such an event.

    She’s made March 4th the Dem judgment day. It’s absurd to pretend otherwise.

  • Obama just has some idea that, by talking to Republicans, he can get them to support his policy.

    Well, that’s certainly the Clinton camp’s interpretation, but it’s not what hear from him. Yes, he hopes to attract more independent and moderate supporters to his campaign and to his causes. I’m not sure why that’s supposed to be a bad thing. God forbid we try to win more people over to progressive causes.

    What if, as historically has been the case, Republicans don’t fall in line. What if they fight every progressive, Democratic move until the end of time? That’s their history. What then?

    You’re fundamentally missing the point. It isn’t that we’re going to convert the Tom DeLays of the world, it’s that we’re going to make them irrelevant.

    You want to talk history? Look at the example of FDR. He campaigned on similar themes — broad promises of change that were very thin on detail, thinner than Obama’s detailed policies — and managed to win over masses of new voters for the party and, more importantly, broaden the political base to help secure victories for downticket candidates to Congress. It was more than the presidency that mattered then, and it’s more than that that matters now.

    The timing is right for a massive influx of new, liberal politicians into Congress. We have 29 House Republican incumbents retiring and a Senate map that has the GOP playing defense in blue and purple states. We can get a strong majority in the House and even a filibuster-proof majority in the Senate if we do this right. And if we get those, nothing can stop the progressive agenda from being enacted.

    As you note, Obama and Clinton are virtually indistinguishable on the details of their programs. But only one of them, I believe, has the ability to change the political landscape that those policy agendas will have to traverse in order to be enacted.

  • TR: “I have never said Obama was a “transformative figure” or “not a politician” any of your other bizarre points you’re intent on pushing back against, so I’ll just let you continue the debate you’re having with the imaginary straw man in your head”

    So sorry, I don’t read you to read you. I don’t know what you’ve said in your lifetime. Are you pretending that this hasn’t been said? Are you pretending that Obama isn’t running on being a uniter not a divider or being above politics? Please notice I didn’t put that in quotes because I know he hasn’t explicitly said this but he’s certainly running on it and if you’re pretending he isn’t, you’re being willfully blind. BTW, nice way to undermine my points by implying I’m crazy (before you deny – going off the rails, “making bizarre points”, talking to the “imaginary straw man in my mind). So civil you Obama supporters, so above the negativity .

  • Just because Dubya made a mockery of the term “uniter not a divider” doesn’t mean that some effort at unity is a bad thing. I’m about as partisan and longterm a Democrat as they come, but even I hold out hope that this country is more than two warring camps. Why is this pitch a bad thing?

    One last time, g8girl — make a positive detailed case for how Hillary will get the common Democratic agenda enacted. I’ve laid out my case for Obama above — I believe he has the ability to usher in a broad new Democratic wave — but you still haven’t explained how she’ll get it done. You say she has “plans in place” to get it done, but nothing more.

    How? Be specific, or I’m just going to ignore you from here on out as a troll.

  • Okay, let’s take a look at “triangulation” from a political perspective, shall we?

    The status-quo application of “triangulation” (as it’s been used before by WJC) is to determine the current course of both opposing spectrums (being, in this case, the two political parties), and then to plot a central course that approximates the midpoint between the two “lines.” Bill maintained his relevance, post-Contract-with-America, this way—and effectively isolated a sizeable chunk of the Democratic Party in the process. This is part of the current anti-Clinton hysteria, and in a way, that hysteria is justified.

    Currently, “triangulation” is being used by HRC to establish an “ideology firewall” to guage the distance from the established Dem “Party line” that the Party machine would be willing to shift to—and she applies this as her “furthest from the main parameter.” She is willing to go “only that far, and no further” in laying out the perimeter of the campaign “big tent.” In so doing, she’s effectively advertising her commitment to maintain the ideological purity of the Democratic Party—but at the cost of denying any meaningful participation in the overall process to Independents and moderate GOPers.

    Obama, likewise, is employing a facet of political triangulation—but this is where his POV gets interesting. First, he identifies the two opposing lines, being the “party machines” of Dems and the GOP. Then, he calculates a second pair of lines to determine how far the rank-and-file of each side might be able to shift away from their respective extreme, and he sets those two lines as his parameters.

    In each case, the “path” sat between two lines—two parameters. WJC shifted to the right and closed out liberal Dems in ’94. HRC is shifting to the left and risks closing out Indies and GOPers who might be willing to help fix the disasters of KG43 and his “herd of hyenas” in ’08. BHB is setting a course down the middle, with a wider set of parameters to define a path that, rather than being exclusionary, becomes more “inculsive”—and in doing so, represents a strategic change from what has been shifts toward one side of the issue at the expense of ignoring the other side of the issue.

    HRC could, of course, still manage a wholesale course correction, but it would encompass a wholesale replacement of campaign staff (beginning with sending both Penn and “Billy J” somewhere far, far away from the campaign—maybe an isolated outpost in Antarctica or something—with no means of communication for about six months or so), and that is something that she will not do. Even if she could, it’s probably too late—the damage is done, and I don’t think anyone’s discovered a way to reanimate a dead horse that’s been thoroughly beaten into the consistency of generic beer.

    (Hey—it’s the first “Billy Beer” segue I’ve had in years. Get over it already!)

    This incessant chatter of “planning for March” is also the perfect way for Fortress Hillary to tell everyone who hasn’t voted yet that “your February votes-to-be don’t mean a damned thing to me.” Pushing voters away in such a manner brings with it a hefty price: more delegates for Obama….

  • tap, tap “Is this things on? Mud slinging clean-up on aisle one. Any available mop to aisle one.”

    Let’s not forget the lessons of CB’s “housekeeping problem” post from a few days ago. Deep breaths everyone, deep breaths.

    On Mr. Benen’s post a long ways above, I’d add to the analogy of the Rudy G. firewall strategy that the Obama campaign has been pursuing a course more akin to Howard Dean’s 50 State strategy. Personally visiting Colorado, Idaho and Nebraska, when other candidates did not, helped cement support in those areas. It’s easier to vote for a candidate when you think the candidate is aware you even exist. A great many people have written that Hill can be very engaging and charming once people get to see her in person. Depriving entire states of her presence hasn’t helped her cause.

    Hillary’s campaign people have been using some less-than-effective strategies. Her advisors are telling her she will win if she hits more home runs like capturing Ohio and Texas, while the Obama campaign has been happy to keep singling in runs by taking a state by state approach.

    I will vote for either Hillary or Obama in the fall, but if Hill does not make it as the party’s nominee I will look at her campaign strategy as being a big culprit of her demise.

  • Excellent point at 80, and point well taken at 81.

    Sorry if I lowered the tone, but I’m just tired of reading so many impassioned negative comments and complaints from Clinton supporters whining about how she’s been mistreated or how Obama is bad, and so few positive cases made on her behalf.

    If the Clinton people can’t make the positive case for her among Democrats — and maybe they can’t, and if so that certainly explains why she’s fared so poorly in caucus states — then they’re going to have a hard time making the case for her to the general electorate.

  • Fred Flinstone, I am the cancer on the democratic party for pointing out that most paranoid nuts who vote in November are not out voting in our open primaries and caucuses, or if they are it is to vote against Hillary? I would argue that it is the people who use venomous words against those who support their candidate (members of the same party mind you), and thus being quite divisive, who are in fact the cancer.

    TR, you want positive, how about this. Hillary Clinton has always looked out for the poorest people in this country who don’t have insurance, much like John Edwards, and has always fought for this goal.. it was not something she decided to run on because that was the popular thing to do. And no, I don’t turn my back on homeless people in the streets, I give spare change when I can and donate to charities frequently.

    On the contrary, Obama’s universal health care plan in fact excludes 15 million Americans, the poorest ones. I know this was supposed to be about a positive point for Hillary, but hey, it’s true.

    Beleive me, Republicans can’t wait to show how liberal Obama is if he wins the nomination. All of those gaffs he is famous for, will certainly make a lot of independents second guess voting for him once they start their fear/smear campaign and they use his own words against him in nationally televised commercials, followed by nonsense about how the terrorists win if he becomes president.

    Like it or not, we are in the “age of terror”, and though most of us know it is mostly propoganda, that won’t matter the target audience who will be easily swayed, the ones people Karl Rove counts on to win the election for John McCain.

    And once again, Hillary made her vote on Iraq based on US Intelligence agencies reports which stated as fact that Iraq had WMD’s, she stated herself that she would have invaded Iraq if she were in President Bush’s place. Grow up people, and stop mud-slinging for crying out loud.

  • TR: Please do ignore me. It’s what you’ve been doing thus far. I’m tired of making my case to someone so willfully blind. You have ignored the fact that my replies have been substantive re: Obama acting shyster-ish (again in reply to Cheezburger). You’ve ignored the fact that I’ve made my case by citing Hillary’s plan vs. an Obama’s idea (not on a single issue but up and down the policy spectrum and plans bring ideas to fruition, meriting more than just a wave of your hand as though it were nothing), you’ve disparaged my comments by implying I’m crazy and now you’re pretending I’m a troll. I’ll just ignore you and you can continue to ignore me.

  • Jen said: Don’t bother with arguments. If you disagree with the Obamites, you are fundamentally stupid. Only their opinion has merit.

    If you ever actually made an argument Jen, perhaps your snark would have some substance. You just get progressively even more pathetic than Anne, and are right now only exceeded by Mary, on the substance-of-the-post scale. (I am sure you are a wonderful person and this is not a personal attack, but your intellectual ability to analyze the situation and make relevant observations is in serious doubt here)

  • Greg: thank you, thank you, thank you.

    I was originally an Edwards supporter, and it was a tough battle for me to decide where to turn when he dropped out. Clinton’s commitment to poverty issues is clear, and was one of the strongest selling points for her in my opinion. She’s done good work on this and she (and her supporters) should tout it more often.

    I take your point about Obama’s health care plan, but I’m just as wary as the idea of mandating health insurance through Hillary’s plan. How do enforce that? That’s the biggest concern I have.

    I have no doubt the slime machine will come out no matter who our nominee is. But I believe that a large portion of the general public has already made up their mind on Hillary — largely through no fault of her own, but there it is — and Obama has a chance to make the case for their support, and is already doing so.

    Also, I just plain believe he’ll be a better fighter in the general election. Faux News spread lies about him (the madrassa b.s.) and he cut them off at the knees, refusing to appear on the network. Faux slimed the Clintons, and now Hillary is asking them to host a debate? Sorry, that doesn’t sit well with me at all.

    On the AUMF vote, Edwards won me back by admitting he’d been conned and was wrong. Clinton hasn’t done that, and I think this distinction makes her vulnerable in a national security argument against McCain. If her argument is that AUMF vote wasn’t wrong, that Bush merely mangled the implementation, then McCain’s case — the surge is a corrective that worked — is going to find some fertile ground.

    We see these things slightly differently it seems, but I really appreciate you taking the time to make the case for her.

  • Typo, I meant to say that “she would not have invaded Iraq if she wre in President Bush’s place”.

  • You’ve ignored the fact that I’ve made my case by citing Hillary’s plan vs. an Obama’s idea (not on a single issue but up and down the policy spectrum and plans bring ideas to fruition, meriting more than just a wave of your hand as though it were nothing)

    All I’ve seen you say here is that, quoting 75, “Hillary goes further though by having plans, steps to take in order to get these policies in place.”

    If you’ve enumerated these plans further, then I apologize because I must’ve missed the post where you spelled out what they were.

    If you haven’t, then yes, I’ll dismiss the vague comments about her “having plans” as if it were nothing because, well, that’s what it seems like.

  • On the contrary, Obama’s universal health care plan in fact excludes 15 million Americans, the poorest ones. I know this was supposed to be about a positive point for Hillary, but hey, it’s true.

    No, that is not true at all. Both plans offer mechanisms to help the poorest Americans, with some arguing that Obama’s plan does better at that. Obama’s plan does not exclude anyone who does not choose to be excluded.

    This 15 million number is also bogus. It is the estimate of supporters of the Clinton plan and is probably an over estimate. Nobody knows for sure. Nobody knows how many people will not be covered under Clinton’s plan as mandates do not mean everyone is covered. Some such as Robert Reich believe that Obama’s plan will cover more. This claim that Clinton’s plan is universal while Obama’s isn’t is just another way in which the Clinton campaign concentrates on distorting the issues while Obama is campaigning by promoting his actual plans.

  • “all we have of Obama is his words. Certainly very little action, nothing controversial once he was in the Senate, ”

    Also another untrue meme from the Clinton camp. There are issues where Clinton has taken the safe path while Obama has made the better choice. For example Obama voted to ban cluster bombs. Clinton supported them. Obama supports needle exchange programs. Clinton opposed them. Obama supports changing sentencing on drugs, retroactively. Clinton wants to continue the drug war.

    With Clinton we also have other controversial issues, but again she is on the wrong side, such as with her support for banning flag burning and censoring video games.

    The Clinton camp loves to claim there is no difference between Obama and Clinton on the issues because once the views of the two are actually compared there is a tremendous difference.

  • TR, I’m all about keeping it real. Healthcare is only one of the positive things about Clinton’s campaign, there’s much more that I truly wish I had the time to research and take the time to post in more detail, but alas I’m working and spending too much time here already 🙂

    To turn this around, what I’d like to see from Obama supporters is more substance coming from their candidate. I must admit that he is very inspirational in his speeches, but I keep hearing how his plans are very detailed, but I haven’t really heard him giving detailed accounts during debates, so please enlighten me. How does his plan keep poor people from having to choose between healthcare and putting food on the table or paying rent? How does he plan to withdraw from Iraq in such a way that it does not make things worse? How does he plan to meet with the heads of countries such as Iran, Cuba, N. Korea, and make them see things his way?

    Not that I think Bill Clinton was being very PC when he said this way of thinking is a fantasy, but I’d like to have somebody prove to me that it isn’t.

    Any takers?

  • Tamalak is just a name I made up. I first used it as my name when Ultima Online came out many years ago. It’s just sort of become my default user name because it’s almost never used by anyone else.

    No relationship to Tomalak, the sinister Romulan general.

  • RonChusid #90 – Obama’s plan does force people who make too much to file for medicaid, and who are struggling to pay bills, credit cards, etc., to have to choose between paying for healthcare and paying bills.

    Hillary mandates healthcare for one simple reason, people NEVER expect to get sick, yet it happens all the time. People who can make the case that they shouldn’t have to pay won’t have to, or else will have the amount reduced, plain and simple.

    What happens to those people under Obama’s plan who decide to roll the dice, and lose? Explain that to me, and maybe I’ll start to agree with you.

  • Harold Pollack:

    “I don’t know how to raise this unpleasant matter except to say it straight: The greatest single risk that Republicans will retain the White House is that Senator Clinton will win the nomination, only to be brought down by some financial embarrassment involving herself or her husband.

    I don’t write this out of spite. I will certainly vote for her if she is the nominee. Almost every Democrat I know, even those of us who now oppose her, greatly respect Senator Clinton’s intellect and experience. I support most of her policy proposals, which are often similar to those advanced by Senator Obama. I admire the Clinton Foundation’s AIDS work. Many in the public health world believe–I certainly do–that Bill Clinton has done more to fight AIDS as an ex-president than he was able to accomplish in his term of office.

    Everyone also knows that the Clintons have made a lot of money over the same period, and that their complicated financial life is their key vulnerability. They have raised $165 million for the Clinton Library, additional monies for the Foundation, for their legal defense, and now for the campaign. Republican operatives are scrutinizing every speech President Clinton has given, every trip he has taken, every donation his library and his foundation have received. Of course, the same need for transparency applies to Senator Obama, about Mr. Rezko or whatever else might be pertinent.

    If anything embarrassing is there, we need to vet it now. Senator Clinton, we’ve got to see those tax returns, those donor lists, and whatever else could spell trouble. This election is just too important to lose over some contribution or personal financial matter.”

  • I keep hearing how [Obama’s] plans are very detailed, but I haven’t really heard him giving detailed accounts during debates, so please enlighten me…

    With all due respect to Greg (No. 92), it’s up to us to do our homework. They’re not going to invite us over for tea.

    Catching an excerpt of a speech or a Russert or Blitzer moderated debate is insufficient (although a good supplement). As a beginning, I suggest reading through the issues sections of the candidates sites–including the various pdfs that are attached. You might also consider reading “Living History” and “The Audacity of Hope”– the latter book goes into great detail about policy.

  • What happens to those people under Obama’s plan who decide to roll the dice, and lose?

    What happens to those people under Clinton’s plan who decide to roll the dice, and lose? Unlike Edward’s plan, her mandates have no teeth.

    In addition, Obama puts more money into the preventive care and reinsurance components of his proposal, driving down premiums. Therefore, the need for subsidies is reduced and premiums are lower. It’s econ 101 — the lower the prices…the greater the demand…the more people covered.

  • Greg, I too need to focus on work now, so I can’t respond in detail.

    But go to the website, and check out a couple of the things I’ve liked best — Zero to Five Plan, Affordable Housing Trust Fund, Universal Mortgage Credit and HOME plan, the Green Jobs Corps, and the Promise Neighborhood proposal.

    Take a look, I’d love to hear your thoughts in a future thread.

  • Gary, Give us a few reasons you voted for Clinton and why?

    I like both candidates, my reasons for voting for Clinton are purely pragmatic. The most important attribute in a candidate I am looking for is electability. In my opinion Clinton stands a better chance of beating McCain in November then Obama. Unlike some democrats I don’t think this years election will be a cake walk for either Clinton or Obama. I don’t think we should make the same mistake we made with Reagan and underestimate John McCain. Obama is certainly a more inspirational speaker, but I’m not swayed by political speeches. They are after all prepared, practiced, often written by others, often repeated campaign stop after campaign stop speeches read by politicians. I put more stock in thinks like the debates. Although the formats of the debates leave a lot to be desired I think it gives you a feel for how a candidate thinks on their feet and what their political instints are. In my opinion Clinton has done better then Obama in most of the debates. I think Clinton is perceived more as a policy wonk and detail type of person, compared to Obama being a more big picture visionary type of politician. After 8 years of W who is a kind of big picture don’t bother me with the details type of guy I think the country may take comfort in a wonkish detail type of President. And before you beat me over the head let me say I in no way,shape or form am implying that Obama is anything remotely like W. If ones leadership style leans toward the big picture visionary style one then has to surround oneself with the most competent brightest people. This I am sure Obama would do, unlike W’s cronyism you’re doing a fine job Brownie type of appointments. I feel Clinton is perceived to be more experienced, and tougher on national security and foreign policy issues then Obama. Attributes that will stand up well against McCain. I also feel that Clinton has been vetted much more then Obama. Everyone always talks about Clinton’s high negative ratings but they are already built into the equation and on most of the national polls she appears to be in a statistical tie with McCain. I understand that national polls show Obama doing better against McCain but I don’t put as much weight in those because Obama still is not that well known yet. Ironically one reason I am supporting Clinton over Obama is I think Obama will make a great president. I’m just not sure if this is his year. My fear is he will win the nomination but lose in the general, and that will be the end of his presidential aspirations. The democrats could always go back to him in 2012, but as we see this year we were not crazy about giving John Kerry a second chance.

    The thing that bothers me in reading these posts is the level of animosity there seems to be between the supporters in both camps. I read a poll the other day that said fully 1/3 of the Obama supporters said they would vote for McCain if Clinton got the nomination and 3 out of 10 Clinton supporters said they would vote for McCain if Obama got the nomination. This just boggles my mind. If you look at issues and policy positions of Obama and Clinton there really is very little difference. But there is a vast difference between Obama and McCain and Clinton and McCain. How one could say they would vote for McCain if their canidate Obama or Clinton isn’t the nominee is beyond me. Like I said I am supporting Clinton but if Obama wins the nomination I will be out there canvassing for him come this fall and he will certainly without a doubt get my vote come November. I would hope that supporters of either candidate could say the same thing.

  • I voted for Clinton in my primary. I expect to vote for her for President. The Clinton machine is not to be underestimated. She will gain the majority of the super delegates. I prefer Clinton because she understands the necessity of everyone having health coverage. Yes, she is a hawk, but thinking back to her early years in the Bill Clinton administration, I am convinced that as president she will govern more to the left than how she campaigns.Obama supported legislation making it more difficult for individuals to file for bankruptcy, this in an age when the majority of personal bankruptcies are tied to medical bills. Obama’s proposal to help victims of sub prime lending will cover fewer people thatn Clinton’s. Obama speaks of bipartisanship. For eight years the Republicans have shown that they are not interested in it. With a minimal majority, they ignored Democrats. So, as far as I am concerned, he’s too hopeful on that score. (And should it turn out that some Republicans are willing to be reasonable and work with Democrats, Senator Clinton has forged numerous cross party ties in her eight years in the senate. She’s way ahead of Obama on that score.) So, whoever the Democratic president is in 2009 (the electoral map works agaisnt McCain), it is either going to be a Democrat who, with Democratic majorities in the House and Senate, forges ahead and transforms this nation with a genuine Democratic agenda, or, according to some, it will be a Democrat with Democratic majorities in both houses gaining some bipartisan support. In either case, the edge goes to Clinton as the candidate who will glean the most from either of these circumstances. Finally, I simply cannot vote to put another neophyte in the White House. We got stuck with an underachieving six year governor of Texas as President for eight years, and he had zero sense of history and geopolitics. The result has been a catastrophe. Should Obama return to the Senate and get more experience under his belt, I shall vote for him in 2016. (PS: As a Democrat, on the outside chance Obama wins the nomination, I will vote for him in November.)

  • g8grl,

    I’m tired of reading your comments about Hillary’s ‘plans’ vs. Obama’s ‘ideas,’ especially when you then call another commenter willfully ignorant. They both have plans. You can educate yourself on each of their websites and several other avenues.

    It is one thing to have a substantial reason to disagree with Obama and prefer Clinton to him; it’s one thing to prefer Hillary’s methods to Obamas; it’s one thing to believe that Obama has played dirty politics; it is entirely another to spout bogus talking points intended to raise the hackles of Obama supporters.

    One might be so inclined to believe you willfully ignorant, but I don’t think so. I think your willfully trolling. Do us all a favor and don’t post that Obama doesn’t have plans again; we deserver better than that.

  • I simply cannot vote to put another neophyte in the White House.

    Anytime I hear this argument, I think about what the consequences of the Cuban Missile Crisis might have been if the neophyte in the White House had listened to those with more experience.

  • Obama supported legislation making it more difficult for individuals to file for bankruptcy, this in an age when the majority of personal bankruptcies are tied to medical bills.

    John Hayde – It’s my understanding that Obama voted against that legislation, while Hillary didn’t vote at all. Can you provide us with something that says that’s wrong?

    Here’s the bill I saw:
    http://votesmart.org/issue_keyvote_detail.php?cs_id=V3480

    And here are the votes on it:
    http://votesmart.org/issue_keyvote_member.php?cs_id=V3480

    Finally, I find it odd that Obama keeps being attacked for wanting to be bi-partisan from the same people who credit Hillary for having “forged numerous cross party ties.” As usual, you can’t find any reason to dislike Obama, so you have to use whatever you can find. It’s clearly not much and voters seem to agree. Hillary’s a fine candidate, but it’s obvious people like Barack more.

  • I read a poll the other day that said fully 1/3 of the Obama supporters said they would vote for McCain if Clinton got the nomination and 3 out of 10 Clinton supporters said they would vote for McCain if Obama got the nomination.

    That’s actually fairly low and I doubt these people are serious. They might say that now, but when November comes, I seriously doubt even 5% would do it. If anything, they just won’t vote. I remember a whole lot of Dean people insisting they’d never vote for anyone who wasn’t Dean, and that changed once he dropped out and they realized that “Bush-lite” was still better than Bush.

    Of course, Obama does have more independents than Hillary and independents do favor McCain more than other Republicans, so I suppose it’s quite likely that an independent Obama supporter might be more likely to vote for McCain over Hillary. But I don’t think that applies as much to full Democrats, and if anything, just shows that Obama brought these people into our column; rather than them being jerks who vote for McCain out of spite.

  • Hillary is “battle-tested,” just because it’s in an op-ed? Y’know, someone said the same thing about the Bismarck—and look where it’s been for the past 88 years.

    Now, what was that guy’s name? Adolf something-or-other.

    The Army of Northern Virginia was “battle-tested”—and then along came a place called Appomattox.

    The Polish horse cavalry was “battle-tested”—and then along came those mean-spirited Panzers and Stukas.

    Kerry was “battle-tested”—and look what we’ve got in the WH now.

    “Battle-tested” is a meaningless piece of bovine-excrement spin. All it means in the HRC campaign is that “our candidate has more experience at bending over for Bu$h/Cheney than your candidate does. So Nyah, nyah, nyah!”

    How does an op-ed from Wilson answer a question about “Clinton’s plans?”

    Point Blank: It doesn’t….

  • Steve @ 108 – I agree with what you say, but think you should take it down a few notches. Our guy is in the lead (assuming you’re an Obama man), and so there’s no need for us to get angry. And it only makes them dislike Barack more, so I don’t see what the point is.

    Beyond that, I think a better way to say it is that “battle tested” means that she’s had the tar beaten out of her for the past fifteen years and still is competitive in elections. And while that’s admirable, I hardly see how that means much. Particularly as no one expects that Obama will quit the race or kill himself if he gets hammered in the general. They just mean that he won’t be able to campaign successfully or get his message across, but this primary season clearly shows that to be a bit silly. If anything, Obama has shown that he’s better than Hillary in both of these categories and we’ve seen no evidence to suggest that he’s easily thrown off his game.

    After all, they’ve been saying that he’s “untested” since before the primaries began, back when she was the Invincible Fighter. Somehow, now that we’re already halfway through this mess and she’s proven to be vincible and is playing nice, he’s still untested? The truth is that they’re just trying to scare people away from picking the candidate they really want.

  • Again with the personal attacks. I’m a Hillary supporter and I put together points for Hillary and against Barack and Obama supporters are calling me a troll. Fine, whatever floats your boat. If you look at the policy pages for Obama vs. those for Clinton you will see that Clinton has specific steps she would take to get her policies in place to work for the country. Don’t like the fact that I just say “specific steps?” Okay, how about the fact that I think those steps are more practical than “transcending politics” and they are more detailed. I could pull examples but I’m just going to say, as others have said, “do your own homework”.

    Doubtful: I never said “willfully ignorant” please don’t attribute words to me that I never said. I said “willfully blind” and I stand behind those words.

  • Again with the personal attacks. I’m a Hillary supporter and I put together points for Hillary and against Barack and Obama supporters are calling me a troll. -g8grl

    No, you didn’t, you repeated a blatantly false talking point that Obama doesn’t have plans and Hillary does. You may not agree with them, but Obama has plans. The longer you persist in not recognizing this fact the more trollish and silly you become.

    http://www.barackobama.com/issues/iraq/

    http://www.hillaryclinton.com/issues/iraq/

    Both of those are plan to resolve the Iraq war; both have specific goals and steps. That’s just one issue, but I challenge you to look at those and explain to us what makes hers a plan and his an idea?

    I never said “willfully ignorant” please don’t attribute words to me that I never said. I said “willfully blind” and I stand behind those words. -g8grl

    Now you’re just parsing your own insults. Sorry I misquoted your attack on another commenter.

    Clinton supporters like g8grl need to give up on the sheer dubmassery that Obama doesn’t have plans, especially when arguing with people who are educated enough to see well beyond the bullshit.

    And I didn’t resort to personal attacks like you imply I did (you’re the one calling people willfully blind). How you can’t see the irony of that in light of the evidence disproving your persistent slander of Obama, I’ll never know.

    It’s never going to fly g8grl, and I’m going to call you out every time you repeat such inanity.

    What is so hard about admitting he has plans, but you just don’t agree with them? Let go of the debunked narratives and join us in the reality based community again.

  • From an earlier post…

    “I simply cannot vote to put another neophyte in the White House.”

    “Anytime I hear this argument, I think about what the consequences of the Cuban Missile Crisis might have been if the neophyte in the White House had listened to those with more experience.”

    That was the best post of the day on this topic, hands down. Very well put.

  • I could pull examples but I’m just going to say, as others have said, “do your own homework”.

    g8grl – You know, that’s just as unconvincing when you say it as it is for other people and if you’re not willing to give us any specific examples of what you’re talking about, it makes it a little hard to convince anyone. Particularly when you say that you’ve read Obama’s specifics and still say his only plan is “transcending politics.” I mean, his specific PDF on Iraq alone is six pages long. And while some of that is him saying that he’s always opposed the war, it clearly was more than just hope. I’m sorry you disagree, but I don’t see how we can take you seriously when you say these things. You’ll either have to give us some examples of how Barack has no plans or you’ll just have to understand that we can’t take it seriously.

    Here’s his plan on Iraq:
    http://www.barackobama.com/issues/pdf/IraqFactSheet.pdf

  • doubtful: are you still po’d because I said you were aptly named? It was a compliment. Well it’s nice to know that I have my own stalker. Hopefully you will feel better when I tell you that I can no longer withstand the attacks that have been levelled at me. I’ve been called a troll and it’s been implied that I’m crazy. I’m done for the day.

  • I’m not the least bit angry, Doc—it’s just that using op-eds as certified facts has the extremely distasteful aroma of the Karl Rove Clan. It is, among the realm of unconvincing tactics, the “most unconvincing-est of them all.” In the world or real-time media, blogs, and You-Tube, the ill-measured comments of just one Clinton supporter today can extrapolate to Clinton herself tomorrow—the day after, tops. I’m wondering—as, apparently, are a few others—if that’s “gate-girl’s” intention.

    And “battle-tested” belongs in the video arcade of the local shopping mall. I’m really curious to find out if that’s where the HRC groupies want their candidate to wind up—because that’s where they seem to be “cubical-izing” her….

  • Steve @ 115 – Again, I hear you, but still think it needs to be toned down some (for example, any comparison to Rove is always a bit harsh). The problem is that they really don’t have anything bad they can say about Obama and are now starting to realize how bad things are looking for their own candidate. And so either they have to use this weak material or stop arguing, and they won’t admit defeat, so they’re stuck with these hollow arguments. I know it’s frustrating, but everything’s on our side and I feel it’s just a matter of time before everyone knows it.

    So while it’s always important to remain vigiliant against unfair attacks, it’s also important to not let our frustration bubble over to something else, especially when talking to people we’d like to have on our side. And while most of their material on Obama is fairly weak, that just reflects the fact that they have so little to work with. Once the general election is going and they get to hit McCain, I guarantee that their arguments will be vastly improved. And I’d much rather have these people on our side than the jerks like “hot dog” and “Fred Flintstone,” who just sound like they’re trying to start fights. And remember, you get more flies with sugar than vinegar.

  • ***(for example, any comparison to Rove is always a bit harsh)***

    Think of it as the political version of “tough love.” Sometimes, a bucket of ice water can work wonders—and I would rather have someone in the Fall who can argue against McCain effectively, rather than throw wild ramblings about that can reflect negatively on the greater Dem cause.

    ***They really don’t have anything bad they can say about Obama***

    They could always mention how butt ugly he’d probably look in a strapless red evening gown and spiked-heel shoes. You know—that Rudi thing. I’d just HAVE to agree with them on that!

    ***How bad things are looking for their own candidate***

    Compared to Edwards, Romney, Giuliani, Thompson, Kucinich, and Paul, she’s doing extremely well.

    ***you get more flies with sugar than vinegar.***

    But every so often, one feels the need to break out the chlorocarbons and pretend that it’s napalm….

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