Clinton inconsistent on Iran?

Earlier this week, Hillary Clinton took quite a bit of heat over a WaPo report in which she seemed to hedge on U.S. policy on torture. I think the criticisms were largely off-base — the WaPo article included a misleading paraphrase and a transcript showed her taking a much firmer position than the article let on.

This one, though, strikes me as a little more problematic.

Hillary Rodham Clinton called Barack Obama naive when he said he’d meet with the leaders of Iran without precondition. Now she says she’d do the same thing, too.

During a Democratic presidential debate in July, Obama said he would be willing to meet without precondition in the first year of his presidency with the leaders of Iran, Syria, Venezuela, Cuba and North Korea.

Standing with him on stage, Clinton said she would first send envoys to test the waters and called Obama’s position irresponsible and naive.

But asked about it Thursday by a voter, the New York senator said twice that she, too, would negotiate with Iran “with no conditions.”

Specifically, a voter asked whether Clinton believed it was “acceptable” if Iran acquired a nuclear bomb. Clinton explained the problems associated with such a development, before saying, “I would engage in negotiations with Iran, with no conditions, because we don’t really understand how Iran works. We think we do, from the outside, but I think that is misleading.”

Now, Clinton’s vote on a resolution regarding Iran’s Revolutionary Guard Corps has been controversial enough, but this is obviously different: wasn’t there a big hullabaloo in July over this? With Clinton on the other side?

As readers may recall, during the YouTube debate, a questioner asked whether, “in the spirit of…bold leadership,” the candidates would be willing to meet “without precondition, during the first year of your administration,” with leaders of rival nations, including Iran. Obama went first, and said he would. “[T]he notion that somehow not talking to countries is punishment to them — which has been the guiding diplomatic principle of this administration — is ridiculous.”

Clinton followed, but demurred. She noted that she wouldn’t “be used for propaganda purposes,” and said a U.S. president shouldn’t meet with leaders from countries like Iran “until we know better what the way forward would be.”

The real fireworks came a day later, when the Clinton campaign blasted Obama for his response, calling his willingness to engage in diplomacy without precondition “irresponsible and frankly naive.”

Today, Clinton believes the U.S. should talk to Iran “with no conditions”?

The campaign doesn’t see a contradiction, and my friend Peter Daou posted a complete transcript, but given the Clinton campaign’s response in July, I think today’s remarks count as a mistake.

We’ll see what, if anything, comes of it.

Update: Edwards and Obama, naturally, think Clinton contradicted herself, but Ben Smith doesn’t, the NYT doesn’t, and the AP changed its lede.

Hillary, I know President Clinton. I remember his ability to remain steadfast on his convictions. I’ve experienced his professional ability to triangulate an issue such as Iran, in order to prevent the need to flip-flop on issues critical to the needs of the Republic.

Hillary—you’re no President Clinton.

  • The triangulation of a trilaterist:

    Today “with no conditions” was the shortest leg on the triangle.
    Who knows what tomorrow’s polls coupled with game-theory will determine?

  • I think Sen. Clinton was saying “we” in place of the U.S. government, as in the U.S. government would be willing to negotiate without pre-conditions if she were president.

    When the controversy erupted in July, I actually thought both Sen. Obama and Clinton were correct, in their own way. We shouldn’t be afraid to talk with adversaries, but we should have a purpose and the ability to say no.

  • I guess it all depends on what the definition of “meet” is.

    I don’t care for the Triangulator, mostly because the pundits think she’s a lock, and they’ve been the absolute worst advisors for quite some time.

  • Ah, but she wouldn’t be meeting him without precondition. She’d be meeting him on the condition that in the meeting they would negotiate with no conditions.

  • There’s no friggin’ contradiction. Stop trying to tear down our nominee. The ‘president meeting with’ and the ‘US negotiating with’ are two different things. Pictures of the president shaking hands with someone could be used for propaganda purposes as Clinton said, but the US should negotiate always. You Hillary haters got nuthin’! NUTHIN’!! Get on friggin’ board already and let’s win the election. God!

  • Whoa, it looks like Haik Bedrosian is playing the role of “Hillary supporter as distasteful boor” now. Let’s not decide what we think of candidates based on strange Internet comments people…

  • Haik Bedrosian is playing the role of “Hillary supporter as distasteful boor”-7

    Ha! Name calling! Nice. I made an argument that Hillary did not contradict herself. Do you have a counter-argument, Swan?

  • From Obama in Iowa today: A couple of months ago, Senator Clinton called me “naïve and irresponsible” for taking this position, and said that we could lose propaganda battles if we met with leaders we didn’t like. Just yesterday, though, she called for diplomacy with Iran without preconditions. So I’m not sure if any of us knows exactly where she stands on this. But I can tell you this: when I am President of the United States, the American people and the world will always know where I stand.

    Dam straight.

  • Rick 9 & 10- Neither you or Obama addressed my point. Neither did Swan. The president meeting with leaders personally is different than our nation negotiating with other nations.

    If the best anyone here can do to counter this simple point is to call me a boor and call Hillary a liar, than I stand by my assertion that you got nuthin’, and by my larger point that we should unify, not quibble.

    I’ll reiterate my promise to vote Obama if he is the nominee, and my expectation that the grown-up Obama supporters among us will vote Clinton if she is.

  • Waiting “…until we know better what the way forward would be” is not the same as “… with conditions”.

    You people… the way you picayune Mrs. Clinton (and practically all other Democrats) to death.

    The other side knows how to fight a war. I think we should prepare ourselves for a Romney presidency.

    Sheesh.

  • There’s no friggin’ contradiction. Stop trying to tear down our nominee. -Haik

    Oh, man, I knew you’d be doing your best Lewinsky in here, but I never thought it would be this funny. Seriously, I’m in stitches here. Hahaha.

    Hillary said they are terrorists and now she says she’d negotiate with them. Can’t wait for ‘our nominee’ to explain in a nationally televised debate with the GOP nominee why she’d negotiate with terrorists.

    Hillary hater? Hah, I don’t hate her. I just think she’s an awful leader who’d be an awful President, a warmonger, and obviously a shameless flip-flopper.

  • “You people… the way you picayune Mrs. Clinton (and practically all other Democrats) to death.”

    Didn’t Obama start the ‘picayune-ing’ first?

  • Can’t wait for ‘our nominee’ to explain in a nationally televised debate with the GOP nominee why she’d negotiate with terrorists. 13

    Obama said he’s do the negotiating with the “terrorists” personally. Do you think the Republicans are going to give a shit about his intellectual consistancy in not voting to allow sanctions against the Iranian Revolutionary Guard?

    You will vote for Hillary or you will help elect Mitt Romney Mr./Ms. Doubtful. Laugh at me all you want. That’s what it is.

  • Seriously, a Clinton supporter trying to get into a semantics debate about the meaning of ‘meet with’ versus ‘negotiate with,’ it’s like, well, it’s like trying to claim that fellatio isn’t sex.

    If the best anyone here can do to counter this simple point is to call me a boor and call Hillary a liar, than I stand by my assertion that you got nuthin’… -Haik

    I disagree with your premise that ‘meeting with’ and ‘negotiating with’ are different things. I also disagree with you allowing Clinton to usurp the US government by using the pronoun ‘we.’

    Obama said he’s do the negotiating with the “terrorists” personally.

    Firstly, Obama never labeled them terrorists like Clinton did. He skipped that vote, which is nearly as shameful, but she’s on record.

    Secondly, when Clinton says ‘we’ she means the US…how do you know that Obama didn’t mean the Government when he said ‘I would?’ Oh, right you don’t support him, so you won’t give him the benefit of the doubt you give to Clinton.

    You’d rather debate pronouns and syntax than admit that your chosen one slipped up during her daily triangulation.

    If you and Clinton think that meeting with foreign leaders is only an attempt to generate propaganda, you’re being obtuse. This country can survive a little propaganda and leaders who want to discredit or otherwise abuse the US in this manner are not stifled or hindered by the lack of a Presidential dialog.

    Obama highlighted Reagan and JFK as examples of Administrations who could talk to people they considered enemies. How is what Hillary is talking about distinctly different from those Administrations? Was that pre-9/11 thinking? Oh noes, the propagandas!

    I’ll reiterate my promise to vote Obama if he is the nominee, and my expectation that the grown-up Obama supporters among us will vote Clinton if she is. -Haik

    And I’ll reaffirm, in light of this new flop, my conviction to not ever cast a vote for Hillary Clinton under any circumstances.

    You will vote for Hillary or you will help elect Mitt Romney Mr./Ms. Doubtful. Laugh at me all you want.

    As more innocents continue to die for Hillary’s mistakes and when the first innocent Iranian’s begin to die, I’ll weep for them and you and her. You may make laughably absurd comments here in support of your chosen candidate, but that certainly doesn’t make it any less acceptable that blood is on her hands and your by virtue of your support.

    You can cry about how Romney or someone else will get elected all you want; you will never convince me to support someone who sent us into at least one uneccesary war.

  • Stop trying to tear down our nominee. YOUR NOMINEE! Your the only one around here shilling for Hillary. I also will NEVER vote for Hillary.

  • Secondly, when Clinton says ‘we’ she means the US…how do you know that Obama didn’t mean the Government when he said ‘I would?’ Oh, right you don’t support him, so you won’t give him the benefit of the doubt you give to Clinton. 17

    If a president refers to the government as “I” he’s a megalomaniac. I’m giving Obama the benefit of the doubt by not assuming he meant that. But you’re wrong about me. I do support Obama, because I support the Democrats in general in this election, and I would not swear off voting for any of them because I understand the dire consequences of electing yet another Republican to follow Bush.

    …you will never convince me…

    You aren’t the only one reading this.

    PS- Fellatio isn’t sex.

  • …. how do you know that Obama didn’t mean the Government when he said ‘I would?’

    Actually, Obama was quite clear in the debate that we was talking about personally going to these countries and meeting with their leaders. It is not at all clear that Clinton’s latest statement is that she, personally would go as President of the US to negotiate. There is a tremendous difference in those two positions. It is not at all clear to me that Clinton has flip-flopped here — it seems she could be stating exactly the same position she stated in the debate.

    BTW I haven’t picked any of the Democratic candidates yet to support. This just seems to me to be a made up controversy along the lines of Kerry’s “global test” answer in his debate with Bush.

  • Haik: We went through that unity stuff in ’04 when we rallied around John Kerry. Lot of good that did us. Now you threaten us with “You will vote for Hillary or you will help elect Mitt Romney ”

    Well in the world I see every day there’s not a hell of a lot of difference between Hillary and Mitt Romney.

    The primaries haven’t even started yet and we have a field of good candidates to choose from. Quit telling us who we have to get behind before the first vote is cast. This ain’t Powerline or Red State.

  • PS- Fellatio isn’t sex. -Haik

    Divorce courts and ex-wives everywhere would strongly disagree.

    If a president refers to the government as “I” he’s a megalomaniac.

    Again, I disagree with your premise…are you the keeper of pronouns?

    Obama did mean his Administration when he said “I would,” which is why he went on to compare his position to that of the former Reagan and JFK Administrations.

    Seriously, enough with the semantics and parsing of ‘I’ or ‘we’ or ‘meet with’ or ‘negotiate with.’ I’ve had enough of the meaning of ‘is’ from Clinton supporters. It’s a tired, old, and empty argument.

  • We went through that unity stuff in ‘04 when we rallied around John Kerry. Lot of good that did us.22

    I voted for Dean in the primary and I volunteered for Dean, but I held my nose and voted for Kerry in the general. In a perfect world, I’d like to be voting for a Dennis Kucinich / Ron Paul ticket this year, but in reality I’ll be voting for the Democratic Party’s nominee whoever she may be.

    I just think people who don’t want another Republican in the White House (and there’s a big difference between Clinton and Romney) should vote for the Democratic nominee. My position is totally reasonable. That I have to spell that out for some of you makes me feel like I’m in the Twilight Zone.

  • Haik, if you want to tell me who I HAVE to support, then you better be offering me a candidate that meets my minimum requirements.

    Hillary does not meet those requirements.

    I’m sick and tired of bobbleheads telling me that I have to vote for “the lesser of evils.” Tell your “FlipFlopChurian Candidate” to get her blasted act together and earn my vote, instead of sending her punt-dogs out to “tell people what they HAVE to do, or my vote stays home on Election Day.

    And a full combat division of “Haiksters” won’t get me out of the house that day.

    Period.

  • Tell your “FlipFlopChurian Candidate” to get her blasted act together and earn my vote

    No problem. I’ll tell her over dinner tomorrow night in Chappaqua.

    Have a nice weekend.

  • Tim Grieve argues quite persuasively for the argument advanced by Haik in 6 (and thereafter). -sarabeth

    No, he doesn’t.

    The crux of his argument is that when Obama says ‘I’ he means personally, and when Hillary says ‘I’ she means an envoy or lackey.

    From the article:

    When Clinton said “I would engage in negotiations” and “I would negotiate” Thursday night, the Clinton campaign says she didn’t mean that she would negotiate.

    Sounds like CYA, if you ask me.

    Here is what Hillary said:

    I would engage in negotiations with Iran, with no conditions, because we don’t really understand how Iran works.

    So tell me, other than the Wolfson backpedaling a day later, how is that different from what Obama said?

    You can’t without boiling it down to a syntax argument about what a candidate means when they say ‘I’ or ‘we’ or ‘meet with’ versus ‘negotiate with.’

    So Tim Grieve typed a lot of words and did a lot of reaching about the phrasing of questions, but it still comes down to his title: It depends on what the meaning of the word “I” is.

    Hillary doesn’t get a special meaning of her own.

  • There’s a simple matrix for understanding this Doubtful #28 and everybody else.

    “I would meet with” means the person himself or herself would personally meet with whomever, because it is not possible to meet someone without meeting him or her personally.

    “We would meet with” means emissaries would meet with whomever and the speaker may be, but will not necessarily be among them.

    “I would negotiate with” could mean the person herself or himself would negotiate personally, or it could mean the person herself or himself would negotiate through and emissary, because it is possible to negotiate though an emissary.

    “We would negotiate with” means emissaries would meet with whomever and the speaker may be, but will not necessarily be among them.”

    Am I wrong?

  • While you’re “dining in Chappaqua,” Hick, you might want to let the lady know that there’s a problem with your website’s security certificate—so I won’t be visiting “the B-Post” any time soon….

  • Am I wrong? -Haik

    Unequivocally, yes.

    All of those things can mean any of those things…candidates use ‘I’ and ‘we’ to represent the Administration and themselves personally. I especially love the entirely intellectually dishonest part of your argument where you say ‘I will meet’ means personally but ‘I will negotiate’ doesn’t have to mean personally. Could you hedge anymore for your Queen?

    Is this what a Clinton Administration will be like? Syntax arguments again? When can I trust what she says? After you tell me what she really meant?

    I simply don’t see how you can continue to make the semantic argument that Obama’s original position and Hillary’s new position are all that different. You’re splitting hairs.

    If Hillary had an R after her name, you’d be railing at the hypocrisy, but you lemming up behind her because you’ve anointed her the next heir to the US throne.

    I don’t buy your argument, no matter how many damn times you rephrase it: it’s still hinges on unfairly treating Hillary’s definition of ‘I’ different than other candidates.

    You swoop in on every post critical in any way of Clinton, and believe me, I think the media in general has taken it easy on her, and CB has been more than fair, and tell people not to be critical of ‘our candidate’ and that we’ll vote for her or suffer the consequences.

    I try not to post in the Clinton threads because I know they’ll turn into arguments like this that ignore the substance of her insincerity and focus on drivel, but I just can’t help reacting when I see drivel like:

    The ‘president meeting with’ and the ‘US negotiating with’ are two different things.

    Neither of the candidate in question even said those things, but you are implying that they did and trying to spin it for your preference. Sorry, but here is what she said again, since you’re not paying attention:

    I would engage in negotiations with Iran, with no conditions, because we don’t really understand how Iran works.

    Where in that sentence am I to understand that when Clinton says ‘I’ she mean and envoy? Bah, what’s the point, you’ll never see…when she leads us into Iran are you going to argue with me about what the meaning of ‘war’ is?

    Telling me who ‘our’ candidate is and to ‘get on board so we can win’ is a little too authoritarian, party before country for my tastes…sounds entirely too much like more of the same.

  • You don’t sound “doubtful.” You sound desperate. That fact remains, you can negotiate through a third party, but you cannot meet though a third party. You can call that splitting hairs, but in politics and in blogging, words and their meanings are what its all about.

  • …but in politics and in blogging, words and their meanings are what its all about.

    You should write Clinton and tell her that.

    That fact remains, you can negotiate through a third party, but you cannot meet though a third party.

    Of course one’s Administration can meet with someone or negotiate with someone without the President’s personal presence. You still persist with this intellectually dishonest tact because there is no defense for her course change.

    Instead you’ll argue about what ‘I’ means, or ‘meet with’ or ‘negotiate,’ but skip the important issue. This is what I fear will be typical of Clinton and her lemmings, and why I will never vote for her.

    You claim that you will support any candidate on the Democratic ticket and that your ultimate ticket would be Kucinich/Paul, an absurdity which needs no counter, but you only haul water for Clinton. Methinks you’re trying to sell the ‘I’d vote for your candidate, so you should vote for mine’ line a bit too hard.

    You will never criticize Clinton or accept any criticism of her because she is your chosen candidate and you will argue ridiculously that Clinton gets her own special ‘I’ which means ‘me, someone in my administration, or something.’

    And making fun of my pseudonym? Sounds like more thuggish tactics from an authoritarian blowhard. What’s wrong, lost faith in your flimsy syntax argument?

  • http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071012/ap_po/democrats_iran_19

    “You can’t have it both ways — on this or any other issue,” said a statement released by Edwards communications director Chris Kofinis. “Senator Clinton needs to be honest with the American people about her plans.”

    Edwards seems to think she’s being dishonest and flip-flopping, too. I wonder what he thinks ‘I’ means?

  • Of course one’s Administration can meet with someone or negotiate with someone without the President’s personal presence.

    That would not be “I.” That would be “we.”

    You still persist with this intellectually dishonest tact because there is no defense for her course change.

    It isn’t intellectually dishonest and it isn’t a course change. Get a dictionary.

    I will never vote for her.

    Good for you. Vote for whomever you wish.

    your ultimate ticket would be Kucinich/Paul

    That’s right. I like them both very much.

    but you only haul water for Clinton.

    Not so. I haul water for all the Democrats, and for Dr. Paul as well.

    Methinks you’re trying to sell the ‘I’d vote for your candidate, so you should vote for mine’ line a bit too hard.

    “Methinks?” Listen, Gollum- All I’m saying is we should all support the Democratic nominee in the general election. That’s a perfectly reasonable stance. You know who wouldn’t like that stance? A sock puppet shill blogger with a fake name working for a Republican candidate, trying to pose as a liberal inside a nationally read liberal blog. I’m not saying that’s you- but when you choose to use a pseudonym, folks can never be totally sure, can they?

    You will never criticize Clinton

    Bullshit! Of course I will. She failed on healthcare in 1994 and she failed the one major test of her senatorship by voting to authorize force in Iraq. She’s not perfect and she is totally fair game for criticism.

    more thuggish tactics from an authoritarian blowhard

    More name calling. The last bastion of a person who has lost an argument.

    Edwards seems to think she’s being dishonest and flip-flopping

    Good evidence. That wouldn’t have anything to do with the fact he’s running against her would it?

    *****

    What are you going to think of Obama when at the Democratic National Convention he asks you, as I have, to vote for the Democratic nominee? Tell him to get fucked? Tell him he’s an authoritarian blowhard?

    Do yourself a favor and go back to avoiding the Clinton threads. You’ve lost.

  • A sock puppet shill blogger with a fake name working for a Republican candidate, trying to pose as a liberal inside a nationally read liberal blog. I’m not saying that’s you- but when you choose to use a pseudonym, folks can never be totally sure, can they? -Haik

    Paranoid much? Your implication that I am somehow a shill for unnamed GOP thugs is another bit of laughable drivel. I’ve been reading TCR and commenting here for several years having found my way here through Kos and Americablog.

    You make fun of my pseudonym, which I reply is the thuggish tactic of an authoritarian blowhard, and you can, I assume with a straight face, tell me that name calling is the ‘last bastion of a person who has lost an argument?’ So, just like Hillary, it’s okay for you, but not for others?

    “Methinks?” Listen, Gollum…
    More name calling. The last bastion of a person who has lost an argument.

    How can you even write the second sentence just moments after implying I was a vile fictional creature? At least ‘authoritarian blowhard’ was apt and relevant to the conversation since you seem to feel it’s your duty to tell us wayward liberals how to vote.

    You can make fun of me and try to discredit me through persistent contradiction until your blue in the face, but it doesn’t change the fact that Hillary changed course and backpedaled a day later to save face.

    What are you going to think of Obama when at the Democratic National Convention he asks you, as I have, to vote for the Democratic nominee? Tell him to get fucked? Tell him he’s an authoritarian blowhard?

    Not with vulgarities, but yes, I will disagree with him. You must think I support Obama which is why you’re so threatened. Because he’s the most viable threat to Hillary. Well, if that’s what you assume, you’re wrong. I’m not putting Obama on a pedestal and he’s not my choice.

    If Obama stands up in front of us and demands that I vote for Hillary or suffer the consequences as has become your mantra, then yes, I will call him an authoritarian blowhard.

    Do yourself a favor and go back to avoiding the Clinton threads. You’ve lost.

    I’m gonna have to disagree. I think you’ve lost. I think once you started parsing semantics you’ve lost. If it gets to the point where you have to tell us what Hillary meant and how that her use of ‘I’ is different than Obama’s, you’ve lost. This argument was over before it began, which is why you’re so angry and implying that long time readers of TCR are GOP shills and sightless former Hobbits.

    And I think I will keep arguing with you when Hillary makes mistakes, because she will make more, and I’ll be right there as the voice of reason when you’re covering her ass. You should use a pseudonym. I suggest Jordache.

  • Haik, what if one of the conditions for negotiating with Iran was that Hilary show up personally?

    Would she decline at that point? Or would she refuse to go until an envoy went?

    Are there conditions or not?

    There is a contradiction. It’s just a question of WHICH statement she no longer stands behind. It might not be a big deal except that she took a shot at a fellow Senator and then seems awfully indecisive on what her actual views are. Get behind the nominee? Not until we have one, I would think.

  • You can negotiate through an emissary. You cannot meet though an emissary. Hillary Clinton did not contradict herself, and if she wins her party’s nomination, we should support her over the Republican.

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