Clinton, Obama, and ‘big states’

One of the more common arguments I’ve heard from the Clinton campaign in recent weeks is that Obama is a weaker general-election candidate because he’s losing “big states” to Clinton. The argument has drawn criticism for being elitist, and while there’s probably something to that, the point is worth considering in more detail.

Indeed, at first blush, it seems reasonably fair. When Obama wins by 30 points in the Nebraska caucuses or 20 points in the Utah primary, it’s impressive, but it’s not exactly a reliable general-election indicator. Nebraska and Utah don’t have a lot of electoral votes, and both are going to vote Republican in November. Clinton, meanwhile, has won states like California, New York, Ohio, and Texas. These are big victories, in big states. Obama may have twice as many statewide victories as Clinton, the argument goes, but he’s not winning where it counts.

Today, the Obama campaign (which seems to be issuing forceful strategy memos a little more frequently lately) sent out a mini-report from Iowa Governor Chet Culver, Wisconsin Governor Jim Doyle, Washington Governor Christine Gregoire, Virginia Governor Tim Kaine, and Missouri Senator Claire McCaskill — all Dems from swing states where Obama defeated Clinton. The goal, they said, is to “debunk” the “big-state myth.”

Senator Obama has scored important victories in each of our states — states that will play a decisive role in deciding whether or not John McCain will be given the chance to enter the White House and extend George Bush’s failed policies for another 4 years. […]

The Clinton campaign’s argument ignores relevant facts about how significant a role these states played in determining the outcome of the presidential race in 2004. In fact, Obama has won 7 of 9 of the biggest states that were close in the 2004 presidential election and have already selected delegates to the 2008 Democratic convention.

Specifically, the memo points to Obama victories in Wisconsin, Iowa, Minnesota, Colorado, Washington, Missouri, and Virginia, all of which were decided by single digits in 2004.

The argument has merit, but it’s also the result of a little cherry-picking.

The key is the definition of “big.” The Obama campaign memo said Obama has won seven of nine of the “biggest states that were close in the 2004 presidential election” that have already held primaries or caucuses. These are the notorious “purple” states that both parties will be targeting carefully in November, so if one candidate is excelling in these states, it makes sense to consider this while picking a nominee.

But there’s a catch — the Obama memo neglects to mention that Clinton has won some “purple” states of her own. New Hampshire, Nevada, and New Mexico were all decided in 2004 by six points or less, and will likely be competitive in 2008 as well. This year, Clinton has won all three, but they didn’t make the cut in the memo analysis, because they’re not “big.”

In some ways, this leads to an interesting dynamic — the Clinton campaign is boasting of its ability to win contests in big “blue” states, while the Obama campaign can tout its success in winning in big “purple” states.

Does this “debunk” Clinton’s big-state argument? Sort of. I’ve never found the argument entirely compelling, but I consider states like Virginia and Missouri pretty big, and if Obama has a better chance of winning these states in November than Clinton, it’s an important angle to consider.

The next question, at least for me, is whether Clinton’s big-state victories are limited exclusively to her. In other words, she won major prizes like California and New York — but does that mean Obama wouldn’t win California and New York? That would matter a great deal, but I haven’t seen any evidence to that effect.

“In other words, she won major prizes like California and New York — but does that mean Obama wouldn’t win California and New York? That would matter a great deal, but I haven’t seen any evidence to that effect.”

That, I think, is really the point which undermines Clinton’s argument. In pointing out that she has won in big Democratic strongholds like New York and California, she’s suggesting that Obama wouldn’t win those states in a general election– but that, of course, is ridiculous. Regardless of which candidate the big blue states prefer in the Democratic primary, it seems pretty safe to anticipate that they will likely support the Democratic nominee in the general election regardless of whether it is Clinton or Obama. That turns Clinton’s argument back on her– if the only major states that she can win in the primary are the reliably Democratic ones, doesn’t Obama’s crossover appeal in the purple states give him an even better chance in the general?

  • it all goes back to the negatives. Obama won’t turn as many people off as Clinton. I saw one workup that showed both Obama and Clinton beating McCain but using different states to do the job. (based on state polls)

    Of course all this is beside the point since Obama is the Dem candidate.

  • she won major prizes like California and New York — but does that mean Obama wouldn’t win California and New York? That would matter a great deal, but I haven’t seen any evidence to that effect.

    You’re far too diplomatic, Steve.

    Clinton, by rolling out that BS argument, lowers her credibility further into the abyss. And of course the big purple states are the prime ground. Duh!

    Add to that the fact that Hillary has a lot of Republicans to thank for her primary “win” in Texas, and the new voters Obama is drawing in (for decades to come) and it’s crystal clear who would better serve the party in the fall elections and beyond.

  • Remember the Survey USA map where they looked at polls by state to see who would win today? Turns out Clinton AND Obama would win — but Obama did it without the “big states”, meaning, he reshuffled the map. I’d call that a new politics.

  • Discussing Clinton’s win in NY — or Obama’s win in IL — as evidence of anything else but home state advantage, makes no sense at all.


  • Those big states Clinton mentions also had decent size early mail-in votes before everyone had more exposure to both Obama and Clinton. So Clinton is hoping everyone will just assume that those voters would vote the same way today as they did when they voted early. (It would be interesting to see if this bears out, and watch how early voters in Florida vote now, should there be a second chance for Florida)

    But in any case, Clinton’s argument that the big states wouldn’t vote for Obama is just plain silly.

  • The key is the definition of “big.”

    I shudder at the thought of more semantics arguments with the Clintons.

  • Really the only thing that the primaries show is that the Dems are more motivated than the GOP. Saying look how I did in X state is meaningless, in a primary as the goal is to win among your party not against the other party.

  • Before this primary season began, there was a great deal of discussion about HRC’s “unfavorable” rating, and the possibility that she had a ceiling. I’d be interested in seeing what the current results of such a survey would be; my own sense of it (arguably biased), is that she has, if anything, increased the number of people who will not vote for her.

    To say nothing of the number who might be willing to vote for her only because McCain is dangerously short-tempered, with an excessively simplistic word view and huge gaps in his general understanding of the issues.

    Penn is famous for being Mr. 50% plus one; taking that kind of approach in a primary is a recipe for disaster when you reach the general.

  • I don’t understand how you can compare who wins a party primary with who will win the state in November.

    candidate A is a moderate.
    Candidate B is far left or far right

    Candidate A will be a far stronger candidate in the general election.
    Candidate B could win every primary and lose every state in the general election.

    Candidate A might also lose every state but having a contest where the only people who are allowed to vote are the liberal 30% or the conservative 30% doesn’t show actual strength in a general election.

    I think, as a general rule, the more moderate candidate has the best chance in the general election.

    Why did the Republicans support Chafee in the primary last time? Why did Lieberman lose the primary and win the general election? It doesn’t happen every time but, as a general rule, the moderate candidate does better in the November election

  • Programming alert: I’m sure most people on this blog already know, but Keith Olbermann is doing his first anti-Hillary Special Comment tonight on MSNBC (8:00 PM). Good news for the Obama camp…

  • And Obama sings:

    Any state you can win,
    I can win better.
    I can win any state
    Better than you.

    No, you can’t.
    Yes, we can. No, you can’t.
    Yes, we can. No, you can’t.
    Yes,we can,
    Yes, we can!

  • Programming alert: I’m sure most people on this blog already know, but Keith Olbermann is doing his first anti-Hillary Special Comment tonight on MSNBC (8:00 PM). Good news for the Obama camp…

    Countdown (no pun intended) to the Clinton camp calling for Olbermann’s firing in 5… 4… 3…

  • I’m not sure the Obama emphasis on big swing states is “cherry-picking.” The three smaller states you state he left out — New Hampshire (4 electoral votes), Nevada (5), and New Mexcio (5) — add up to only 14 electoral votes. The seven larger states that went for Obama total 71 electoral votes. In a close election, one of those double-digit electoral vote states could decide the election. It’s unlikely that one state like N.H., Nev., or N.M. will decide the election.

  • New Hampshire was the difference in 2000.

    Nader cost Gore Florida AND New Hampshire. If Gore had won either of them then he would have won in 2000.

  • James Dillon gets to the heart of the matter. Hillary is doing well in all the states that other Democratic nominees have traditionally done well in … and still lost the general election.

    None of us can say for certain which of the “new” states Obama would carry over McCain, but then neither can McCain. A Republican ticket on the short end of the fundraising straw will have to expend more resources on formerly safe territory giving the more purple states a better shot at going Democratic. It would be nice to have a presidential election that didn’t get down to the usual “it all comes down to Ohio and Florida” banter. For once, a candidate with 50 state appeal would make the contest hinge on other states, if not offering up the hope of a landslide and the attendant talk of a national mandate.

  • Obama or Hillary will win the blue states. It’s who will win the most of the purple states that will decide who wins. Hillary will only increase the GOP vote in those states.

  • Isn’t the bottom line that if the election were held today, both Hillary and Obama would beat McCain by essentially the same number of electoral votes? Neither is more “electable”. They both win by similar margins.

  • To break out of senatorial gridlock we have to win a new super-majority, either by electing more democratic senators or forming a larger coalition. Obama may be able to do this, but I don’t think Hillary can. By bringing moderate voters to the polls, Obama is likely to have coat-tails in purple states. By pursuing a 50%+1 strategy that writes off the purple states (and probably also by depressing Black turn-out and raising Republican turn-out), Hillary is likely to hurt down-ticket candidates in those same states.

  • Memekiller (@7),

    Nice link! I’m lovin’ this data…with Obama’s victory of 22, anything 11+ is a potential swing, and I found it very interesting how close Michigan (17) was, for both Clinton and Obama. In fact, the percentages on the Clinton page were both listed at 44%, so but the state was red, so McCain has a slight edge in that matchup (amusing since Hillary is trying to claim a Michigan victory). For Obama, Michigan runs blue, 46/45. So I think that it was Florida 2000, Ohio 2004, and Michigan will be the one to watch in 2008.

  • I do not think Clinton’s win in the big states that are solidly blue, e.g. NY and CA, are limited to her, or to put it another way, do you really think McCain can win CA and NY?

    This election like so many others is going to be determined by the truly independent voters in the purple states. Obama and Clinton do have policy differences, but those differences are insignificant when compared to their differences with McCain. In other words, Clinton and Obama will both carry those purple states if the voter is deciding as a matter of policy and that voter leans Democratic on those policy issues, e.g. health care or Iraq.

    Clinton has very high negatives and will galvanize Republicans to vote against her making this election more of a struggle than it already is.

    McCain’s age is going to work against him- and is in fact more of a negative than either race or gender.

    What is likely to make a difference is the ability to communicate your policies and the non-policy reasons people vote. McCain is stilted and stiff. Moreover, McCain may be his own worst enemy- neither Clinton or Obama would have said that they were not good on the economy, or that we might remain in Iraq for 100 years. Clinton comes off as a policy wonk (which I like but I am far from the typical.) Obama is able to demonstrate knowledge in a friendly and non-patronizing manner, and although his spoken response may be a bit vaguer than Clinton’s they are still better than McCain’s. Obama has less experience in national politics but he is inspiring and the politics of hope work well in America. Finally, as much as McCain and Clinton want to dismiss Obama as just a good speech maker, if people aren’t listening to you how can you expect them to vote for you? For all of these reasons, I believe Obama is more likely to carry the independent voters in purple states than Clinton.

    The wild card in all of the above is McCain’s advantage of being perceived as “straight talking.” Perhaps he will be able to continue that perception with independent voters in purple states- we can hope and work toward tarnishing that reputation.

  • It’s very early but according to Rasmussen polling, Obama beats McCain in five of the “larger” states he won in the primary season — Iowa, Colorado, Minnesota, Wisconsin, and Washington. Obama also “wins” three small states that Clinton won — New Hampshire, Nevada, and New Mexico. Of course, Clinton might have a better chance of winning Ohio than Obama.

  • The notion that Obama will lose California or New York because Mrs. Clinton bested him in those states is ridiculous. Obama’s folks have the better of this argument.

  • Re: Addison @24,

    God, no, the last thing we need is for Michigan to be 2008’s Florida/Ohio. Seriously, people, you don’t want the fate of the nation riding on us. Things are coming unhinged here. We lead the nation in unemployment, and our state Dems have made a mess the primary. Add to that the fact that our state Dems are not very popular for other reasons, and we’ve got a recipe for disaster.

    I said it two months ago, and i’ll say it again…i’ll be disappointed, but not surprised if Michigan turns red this time around. And if Clinton is the nominee, bet on it. Aside from the 333,000 (roughly) people who voted for her in the primary, she might not get many more. I can think of at least 20 people (all white, and all over 50) off the top of my head who’ve voted Dem their whole lives who’ve nixed voting for Clinton. There is actually a group of college professors in my town who are organizing a preemptive, anti-Clinton club.

    Please, no…any state but Michigan.

  • Just pointing out that New Mexico, Missouri and New Hampshire as well as several other relevant states were incredibly close in the primary. To say that because one won by 2-4 percent that the candidate has a huge advantage in the general election is a bit premature and fasicious. Lets not just to conclusions in favor of either candidate on this type of speculation

  • When Obama wins Idaho and Nebraska it does not indicate how he’ll do in the general, because the primary and the general are different. When Clinton wins New York and California, it shows how Obama will do in the general, because the primary and the general are … what, the same?

    It’s the hypocrisy, stupid! I’m surprised that this idiocy has managed to spread even to here… if we actually were interested in seeing how candidates would do in the general, we’d be looking at things like SurveyUSA poll results for the general, not pretending that the primary result is indicative of the general result!

  • If Obama wants to get tough with Clinton bring up chinagate she was on that watch when it happened. First rule of the C-in-C is not to give succor to your enemies. Right?

  • I very much doubt Clinton would have beat Obama in New Hampshire, Nevada, and New Mexico if they had been head to head races rather than races with 5-6 candidates..

    I also suspect Obama was hurt in NH by two factors. Ron Paul pulling the a bunch of the youth vote and the fact that by moving the primary earlier in the year both UNH and Dartmouth were still both on winter break on election day.

    All that said, Clinton barely won NH.

  • Obama will not win CA. Obama had the support of Ted Kennedy, John Kerry, Caroline Kennedy, CA Governors wife and OPRAH all stumping for him in CA and still he lost to Hillary. Obama also lost MA despite the Kennedy/Kerry support. In the general election if Obama is nominated he will not even win MA and MA has nothing to do with any race voting for or against him. MA has a black Governor (Obama’s friend Duval Patrick….the one Obama lifted speach lines from) MA has in past voted a republican Gov. Romney and a woman Governor but there is no way MA will elect Obama……if that is the choice McCain will win MA. McCain will also win CA but for different reasons……..hispanics will never support Obama.

    Now consider the fact that Rev. Wright will be appearing in ads with Obama’s kids clapping for him….proof that Obama is raising his kids to believe the Wright crap. Hillary is trying not to distroy the dems black vote but McCain will not expect much black vote and will slam Obama every time he or his supporters cry racist……There will be commercials with Michelle Obama claiming this is the first time she has been proud of her country with sub headings showing all the free tuition she was given because of the hard work of people that have been fighting for Michelle’s civil rights for years like, Bill and Hillary Clinton and Ms. Ferraro. Obama can not win …vote Hillary or we will have McCain for 4 years and he might have Coni Rice as VP which just might take the black vote from Obama anyway.

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