Clinton, Obama, and the forum on faith

When Faith in Public Life first scheduled a forum weeks ago for the presidential candidates, it sounded like it was going to be a pretty compelling event. While not a debate, per se, the event would press the candidates specifically on issues relating to compassion, morality, and culture in a way that most forums usually don’t. When Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama agreed to participate, it was reasonable to expect quite a bit of interest.

But Faith in Public Life also got a little lucky — just 48 hours before their event, a media firestorm focused on an Obama comment about people in financially distressed communities “clinging” to their faith. All of a sudden, a high-profile event became a very high-profile event.

It’s always hard to know whether an event like this one, hosted at Messiah College in Pennsylvania and aired nationally on CNN, is going to shift a lot of votes, but we gained some interesting insights from the candidates, and got a closer look at the flap that has dominated the political world since late Friday afternoon. (John McCain was invited, but chose not to participate.)

In response to the first question at the forum, Mrs. Clinton repeated her charge that Mr. Obama’s remarks were “elitist, out of touch and, frankly, patronizing.” She said his words helped perpetuate the idea that Democrats looked down their noses at church-going Americans and hunters, an attitude that many Democrats believe contributed to their last two presidential losses.

Mr. Obama, when he got his chance on the stage, once again sought to clarify and defend his comments, which he made in the closed-door fund-raiser in San Francisco a week ago. He said his words had been distorted and misconstrued.

“That was in no way a demeaning of a faith that I myself embrace,” Mr. Obama said. “When economic hardship hits, they have faith, they have family, they have traditions that have been passed on from generation to generation. Those are not bad things. Those are the things that are left.”

Obama added that he sees religion as “a bulwark, a foundation, when other things aren’t going well.”

Of course, it wasn’t all about the so-called “bitter-gate” story; the candidates were also pressed on the specifics on several issues relating to faith and politics.

On abortion, for example:

Clinton was asked whether life begins at conception — which opponents of abortion contend is a reality that makes any termination of a pregnancy the ending of a life.

“I believe the potential for life begins at conception,” Clinton said. “For me, it is also not only about a potential life. It is about the other lives involved. … I have concluded, after great, you know, concern and searching my own mind and heart over many years, … that individuals must be entrusted to make this profound decision, because the alternative would be such an intrusion of government authority that it would be very difficult to sustain in our kind of open society.”

The New York senator added that abortion should remain legal, safe and rare.

The two candidates appeared separately at Messiah College near Harrisburg, Pa., and briefly met as Clinton left the stage and Obama took her place. The moment of pleasantries and handshakes belied days of angry accusations between the two over Obama’s comments about bitter voters in small towns.

Asked whether life begins at conception, Obama said he didn’t know the answer.

“This is something that I have not, I think, come to a firm resolution on. I think it’s very hard to know what that means, when life begins. Is it when a cell separates? Is it when the soul stirs? … What I know, as I’ve said before, is that there is something extraordinarily powerful about potential life and that that has a moral weight to it that we take into consideration when we’re having these debates.”

And on life’s origins:

He riffed comfortably about the balance between science and faith and his belief in evolution as well as the idea that God created the universe; he adeptly sidestepped a question about whether God intervenes in history in real time, saying that he believed that God did intervene but that his plans are “too mysterious” for him to grasp.

I know it’s the soft bigotry of low expectations, but I’m always encouraged when I hear a religious presidential candidate publicly declare that he or she embraces modern biology.

At the risk of getting overly meta, I think the event’s existence and the Dems’ role in it is, in and of itself, a step in the right direction. Clinton emphasized last night, for example, that she believes Al Gore and John Kerry came up short in their campaigns because of the perception that they couldn’t respect or relate to Americans’ religiosity.

I tend to think that’s overstated, but the perception of a “God gap” is a persistent challenge for the party, and forums like the one last night help chip away at the problem.

So, did everyone watch? Thoughts?

I couldn’t watch the whole thing, however, I did see Clinton’s part where they asked her about euthanasia. She gave the most waffling answer about respecting life, even brought up Shiavo, and she dodged the role of government interference in such matters. As someone who thinks that there absolutely should be a right to die I found her oh-it’s-such-a-hard-issue equivacating frustrating.

Then again, I’m just sort of disgusted with her these days– her calling Obama “elitist” is the last straw. She seems to prefer the pollyannishh spin on being poor or struggling– that there is some kind of inherent dignity in living paycheck to paycheck or not having healthcare– which to me makes her more out of touch than I can stomach.

  • I for one could accept that Barack misspoke in SF until his rant yesterday about Hillary being Anne Oakley. Just more condesending BS from the great BS’r. If Barack gets the nomination it will be 4 more years of McBush. You can’t disrespect most of the people all the time and be president. For the good of the country Barack should step aside and let the grown-ups run the country. Maybe in 8 years he will be ready for prime time but right now he’s nothing more than an educated elitest that can’t win.

  • I for two could accept that Hillary misspoke in Saturday until her rant yesterday about Barack being “elitist, out of touch and, frankly, patronizing.” Just more condesending BS from the great BS’r. If Hillary gets the nomination it will be 4 more years of McBush. You can’t disrespect most of the people all the time and be president. For the good of the country Hillary should step aside and let the grown-ups run the country. Maybe in 8 years she will be ready for prime time but right now she’s nothing more than an bitter bitch that can’t win.

  • Messiah College has two interesting alumni. The more famous is Monica Goodling. The other is Ray Crist, a chemist, who worked on the Manhattan Project. Mentioning that might have de-simplified the life/death debate a bit.

  • Obama is a fraud, his words were his words, he can try to explain them and spin them but the fact remains that he said those words in that sequence.. that people cling to guns and religion because they are bitter.

    I can’t see how he can beat Hillary, the superdelegates should make sure of that.. certainly he cannot beat McCain now, God help us if he wins the nomination.

    Comeback Troll, you are not funny, and neither is Barack when he tries to humiliate Hillary like a typical misogynist.

  • Comeback Bill said: I for one could accept that Barack misspoke in SF until his rant yesterday about Hillary being Anne Oakley.

    I’m sure you could, Bill. I’m sure you could.

  • My neighbor, who is no news hound or political junkie, is suddenly obsessed with the “bitter” debate. She doesn’t care about the guns and religion aspect. In fact she can’t understand why the media is focused on that part. She can’t believe that Hillary and McCain don’t think people are mad as hell about jobs and broken promises by politicians. For what it’s worth, she’s nominally Dem, though her biggest issue is funding for an animal shelter.

  • It is disturbing to me that all of the remaining presidential candidates feel compelled to trot out their pagan occult superstitious beliefs and dance to the tune of the religiously insane. The event as described has done nothing but lower my opinion of any of these people.

    I guess we can expect another four years of government sponsored religious insanity. I was hoping for at least four years of cleaning out the superstitious idiots the current junta has planted within the bureaucracy.

    As for McPutsch, I would restrict my comparisons to the McClueless Republican’t and his Anything-But-Straight-Talk Express. I see clear distinctions between the policies of either of the remaining Democratic candidates and the Republican’t policies of the Cokespoon Cowboy. If McClueless wins in November it will be four more years of the same (or worse). But I don’t think it is a fair comparison (or even a wise thing to do) to compare either Clinton or Obama to the Republican’ts they’ve been at odds with since, like, ever.

  • At the risk of getting overly meta, I think the event’s existence and the Dems’ role in it is, in and of itself, a step in the right direction. Clinton emphasized last night, for example, that she believes Al Gore and John Kerry came up short in their campaigns because of the perception that they couldn’t respect or relate to Americans’ religiosity. I tend to think that’s overstated, but the perception of a “God gap” is a persistent challenge for the party, and forums like the one last night help chip away at the problem.

    I tend to think that if we’re going to get all Amy Sullivan about it, there are times and places to chip away at what may or may not be our internal party problems. A shallow forum in the midst of the primary season is not the best time to try to thresh out these complicated issues and may do more harm than good to the party, partly because the temptation is too overwhelming–and Low Road Hillary just couldn’t resist it within the first five minutes–for a desperate candidate to take the Republican party line to try to use it against her fellow Democrat.

    (As an aside, I’m sure John Edwards, John Kerry and Al Gore are very, very pleased today with her wholesale dissing of their campaigns.)

  • This is one of the places where Clinton and Obama show their similarities. The event and their contributions to it are right out of the New Democrat playbook in that they are trying to find ways to address the “God gap” with the GOP that theoretically explains the GOP’s success in suburbs and small towns. Clinton has jumped the DLC shark with her stories of gun loving and hunting while Obama is parrying by going back to one of his rationales for running in the first place–i.e. he gets the purple states, has “deep faith” and cares about the “traditions” of hunters.

    I doubt the event did much to close the God gap. As Steve notes this is a persistent criticism of the Democrats, but it remains one despite a long line of candidates from evangelical backgrounds like Carter, Clinton, and Gore. A quick Google search turned up this gem from Gore in the 2000 campaign:

    “”National leaders have been trapped in a dead-end debate” on church-state questions,’ Mr. Gore said, faced with a false choice between ”hollow secularism or right-wing religion.” He said he regretted ”the allergy to faith that is such a curious factor in much of modern society.” And he pledged, ”If you elect me President, the voices of faith-based organizations will be integral to the policies set forth in my administration.”
    http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=940DE0D81730F93AA15756C0A96F958260

    As for 2004, Kerry lost the churchgoer vote despite being a more regular Sunday worshipper than Bush, and despite, in a debate with Bush, making an even more forthright defense of life beginning at conception than Hillary did last night.

    To the extent that Clinton and Obama reassured churchgoing suburbanites who worry that Democrats are atheists and libertines, the event fulfilled its purpose. But a quick review of the charges that Obama is either a muslim or has fanatical black nationalist for a minister should remind us that the whole idea of a God gap serves the GOP’s purpose. The Democrats will undoubtedly do better with evangelicals this year than in 2004, but events like the Faith in Public Life forum will probably have less to do with it than with those voters deciding on issues other than religion as it’s framed in these settings.

  • Allegedly there is no religious test for public office, but we seem to have abandoned that part of the Constitution along with much of the Bill of Rights in the last decade or so.

    The forum will definitely benefit the eventual Democratic candidate this fall. Americans have demonstrated that they want to hear God-talk from their politicians. The Republicans have figured that out, to their great benefit. A cynical, spiteful, elitist SOB like George W. Bush can talk about having his life changed by Jesus and convince a lot of people that it would be great to have a beer with him. (I can’t imagine anything more repulsive.)

    That said, I’m glad that CB watched the forum, so I didn’t have to.

    McCain didn’t show up because he’s as shallow as a mud puddle. He knows that he would have looked like a fool discussing philosophical and theological questions with the Democrats. And his answers to the questions (the Earth was created 6,000 years ago, evolution is a myth, one-celled embryos deserve the full protection of the law) would have embarrassed him before those who haven’t really focused on how he panders to the religious right. And he isn’t even sure what denomination he belongs to!

  • Last night at the forum of Faith in Public Life It was very sad that abortion and euthanasia were discussed in such a matter of fact way. Unfortunately our present society thinks we are GOD. The questions that were asked to the candidates on matters of life should not be discussed in a one hour public forum. It was almost like asking the candidates what color do you prefer blue or red. We have become a disposable society who does not value the sanctity of life and love.

  • Frankly I think that talking about the bitterness that DOES exist in this country isn’t going to hurt him in the long run– many of us are bitter and angry, especially after the past 7+ years. Obama’s campaign would be well served to talk about channelling our collective bitterness and outrage into positive, serious change.

    Obama’s mistake was the very clumsy “guns and god” reference that had to be explained beyond a 2 second soundbite. He didn’t come up with the idea that people are bitter out of thin air, he just spent nearly 2 weeks traveling across PA in a bus. He could help clear this up if he talked about some of the people he met and talked to, where he got that impression. It’s hardly an elitist impression, if anything it’s elitist and out of touch to pretend that struggling people aren’t bitter or angry, that we’re all full of a special brand of sweet dignity that only the poor possesses. Now THAT is condescending and patronizing.

    By the way, I find it really amusing how many of Hillary’s male supporters I’ve encountered who are very quick to call Obama supporters “sexist” or “misogynists.” Sorry to break it to you but plenty of strong feminists support Obama, both men and women, and not supporting Hillary has nothing to do with sexism. It’s really tiresome and makes you appear especially unhinged, so knock it off already.

  • I personally don’t really care about the candidate’s most intimate thoughts about such issues. I care about how they envision government’s role– when it comes to such issues as abortion and euthanasia I’d like to see the government butt out of such private, personal medical decisions.

    That being said, I have to give kudos to the candidates for trying to bridge the perceived “God gap.” I personally could use a lot less religion inflused with our politics but we have to put an end to the absurd notion that the other side is God’s Own Party. I’m hoping that this is a step in that direction.

    It was especially heartening to hear Obama say that this is a Christian Nation, but it is also a Jewish Nation, a Muslim Nation, a Hindu Nation, etc. AND that “this is also a nation of atheists.” He actually said the a-word and implied that we have a right to exist! It’s especially nice to hear from such a religious guy.

  • “Religion consists in a set of things which the average man thinks be believes, and wishes he was certain.” – Mark Twain

    All I can say about that televised camp of misery I witnessed last night was that it was profoundly below average. Will politicians ever get past the fear of catering to the conservative minority?

    It’s sad that the reason the conservative religious vote matters is because they are the majority WHO VOTE. If more people voted, we wouldn’t have to listen to such sad dribble. At times, it almost looked as if Clinton and Obama were holding imaginary hats between their hands… jezzss.

    I leave you with Thomas Jeffferson-
    “Question with boldness even the existence of a god because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear.”

  • Okie #12:

    McCain didn’t show up because he’s as shallow as a mud puddle. He knows that he would have looked like a fool discussing philosophical and theological questions with the Democrats.

    Maybe. But the bar the American voters set is pretty low for discussing things philosophical and theological, likely due the the mass ignorance of such things in this country.

    Remember, in the 2000 campaign, at a Republican debate the candidates were asked who was their favorite political philosopher. Some went old school, back to famous Greeks. Some chose from our Founding Fathers. There were discussions of Locke and Mill. And then Geo. W. Bush said “Jesus.” And couldn’t really defend it. The rest of the panel snickered. Bush was elected.

    I consider this one of the ultimate condemnations of our voting public.

  • (: Tom 🙂 said:
    It is disturbing to me that all of the remaining presidential candidates feel compelled to trot out their pagan occult superstitious beliefs and dance to the tune of the religiously insane. The event as described has done nothing but lower my opinion of any of these people.

    The smug superiority of the evangelical atheists who sometimes comment here would be funny if they weren’t deliberately being hurtful by deriding something that is a central part of many people’s lives.

    Tom, you express contempt for people’s “pagan occult superstitious beliefs”, but are you any better than they are? Where is the proof for your certainty that there is no supreme power? Am I not justified in being contemptuous of you when you have no evidence to back up the beliefs you espouse so vehemently?

    I’m not agreeing with the members of the Religious Right who call “secular humanism” a religion. But I do think that atheists use the same circular logic they do.

    Tom, how does it hurt you when someone expresses a belief in a higher power? Why do you need to lash out at them? If they aren’t trying to force you to believe as they do, or to force you to live according to the laws of their religion, why can’t you ignore them? I’m contemptuous of fans of the New York Yankees, but I don’t feel a need to declare my contempt to the rest of the world.

    This doesn’t mean that we can’t demand that people live up to their stated beliefs. In fact, the louder someone proclaims that they are following a particular religion, the more closely we should examine whether they are living up to the tenets of their faith. We shouldn’t, for example, permit a man who says Jesus is the most important guiding figure in his life to engage in unjust wars, executions, torture and promoting ethnic, racial and religious intolerance without calling him out for his hypocrisy.

    But making fun of someone’s beliefs, just because they are different than yours, is wrong under any cosmology.

  • I am encouraged that Barak Obama is thinking about rural America.

    Driving around the twin tiers of southern NYS and northern Pennsylvania, I see a lot of abandoned farms and factories and other signs of economic stagnation.

    It seems that fewer and fewer people are able to earn a living from the land. Exurbia is growing in the form of people moving from the cities and living here on their retirement income or in some cases telecommuting. They are having an impact on the area, too.

    I am sure that Senator Obama has seen similar things campaigning in rural areas throughout our country.

    Many families living in this area seem to be insecure financially and uncertain about the future. A lot of them certainly give all appearances of being embittered.

    In his comments, Senator Obama was struggling to espress an understanding of the problems of the economic and demographic stagnation of rural America and trying to define its political effects on the people there.

    It is worthwhile to recall that Obama was engaged in a private conversation with supporters and responding to them.

    Politicians should not be excoriated for struggling to deal with complex issues outside their expertise. Clearly, Obama will develop more insight and greater understanding of rural issues as the campaign develops.

    It is interesting though, that if Obama had made a major speech articulating bold new approaches for rural America, it would not have received the publicity or recognition that this has.

    It is a shame that we keep beating each other up rather than engaging each other is constructive discussions of our common problems.

    Senator Obama has again demonstrated his His compassion, intelligence and capacity for growth. It is clear that he is concerned about people living in rural areas and is trying to think through the knotty problems of rural development. He will learn from this and will develop a better appreciation for the nuances of rural policy.

  • “Obama is a fraud, his words were his words, he can try to explain them and spin them but the fact remains that he said those words in that sequence.. that people cling to guns and religion because they are bitter.”

    once again, greg, you only see what you want to see, and miss the overall picture.

  • Democrats looked down their noses at church-going Americans and hunters

    I am not sure that people on this blog look down their noses at hunters but the people here ABSOLUTELY look down their noses at church-going Americans.

    I wish that liberals and Democrats treated church-going America will less contempt. If they did then the liberals and Democrats would win a lot more elections.

  • As I posted elsewhere last night:

    I know some of you have a problem with interjecting religion into politics – so do I (and I’m a (liberal) Christian). But it’s important for the Democratics to show that they can be people of faith and how that faith enters into public service. Otherwise the Rs own the issue and get the votes of the evangelicals and other believers. The forum also gave Obama another opportunity to dispel the “Obama is a Muslim” meme.

    I thought Hillary – the little of her that I could stand to watch – was OK, but Obama, wow. He explained his policy/what he would do as president in terms of his faith and his upbringing (talking about his mother as spriritual but distrusting of organized religion). All without discounting people who aren’t Christian or believers at all. I LOVED that he said he may not be right or have all the answers. I thought he did well with the “bitter” issue, the Wright issue, and his last answer was terrific (see paragraph 3 of #15 above). He’s absolutely right that for a nation as diverse as we are, we all need to be able to listen and agree on solutions together. I absolutely see him as our best hope to get us out of the current divisive situation our country is in.

    ~~~~~

    Note for Stephen Colbert fans: He will appear on Larry King tonight.

  • Steve

    You attack Tom by saying-

    ‘The smug superiority of the evangelical atheists who sometimes comment here would be funny if they weren’t deliberately being hurtful by deriding something that is a central part of many people’s lives.’

    We’ll maybe ‘we atheists’ are tired of being derided by YOU folks on the other side of the fence.

    If you were truly objective about it and did your research you will find that those on the Religous Right are the ones doing the bashing to all the ‘non-believers’. I.E.- The claims about 911 due to homosexuality etc. The list goes ON…….

    (Ironically, we haven’t heard a peep about god flooding the hell out Texas lately. I guess it’s a different kind of reason, huh?)

    Anyway, more to the point, you also say- ‘Tom, how does it hurt you when someone expresses a belief in a higher power? Why do you need to lash out at them?’

    I think you miss the point. People like myself and Tom, don’t like being told that YOUR GOD is the ONLY GOD and that you and your followers are his little pets and the rest will burn in hell.

    To us non-believers it’s none of your business what I do with my mind and body. And furthermore, let’s keep it out of politics, just as the founding fathers of this great democracy wanted.

    I hope this helps.

  • stealing some of tom’s quote :
    It was disturbing to hear supposedly rational people talking about myth and superstition. The event as described has done nothing but make me think that this was a gigantic pander-fest and lowers my opinion of these people.

  • zoe from pittsburgh summed up my virtually all my opinions pretty well with respect to last night’s event.

  • One complaint I had about Obama, on his discussion of abortion, he indicated that opponents should continue their efforts to change the law to what they see as appropriate. Its not merely a law: according to Roe v. Wade, its a constitutional right, period. It was a powerful written opinion, well founded on law and facts, and quite correct in its decision; I would hope more anti-choicers would actually read it and its predecessors first. I was expecting more from a former constitutional law professor on this point.

  • Thanks much for the heads up, Steve. No way I would have found that forum on my own. Politics should treat religion/spirituality the way AA does. No one tries to ram their ‘higher power’ down anyone’s throat. Most keep it to themselves or share with those amenable to their perspective. The nature of that higher power is self determined. It could just be an idea, a love of nature, a respect for science, the Bible, the Sermon on the Mount,….

    As Obama mentioned last night, there is core of decency in all the major religions. As an atheist, former Catholic, I am aware that my personal morality was formed under Catholic auspices. What I took from that upbringing is as precious to me as the 10 Commandments are to others. The fact that I no longer think Jesus was God, in no way diminishes the value of some of his teachings to me.

    Dogmatic, loosely scriptually based certitude is what is offensive and defeats humanity’s positive potential in the 21st century. Just as in AA, we decide what our morality is, whether we want to admit it or not. Stem cell research, derivatives, early stage abortion, birth control, genetic engineering,… These are issues WE must decide. Obama’s admission that he really didnt know God’s ultimate plan was honest and refreshing.

  • For me, this quote from the faith forum says it all:

    ******************************************************************************
    Mr. Obama, in response to a question from an audience member, Jim Wallis, the president of Sojourners, a progressive religious group, said he would seek to cut poverty in America in half within 10 years, although he said circumstances could undermine his good intentions.
    )Mr. Obama, in response to a question from an audience member, Jim Wallis, the president of Sojourners, a progressive religious group, said he would seek to cut poverty in America in half within 10 years, although he said circumstances could undermine his good intentions.

    *******************************************************************************

    Talk about empty-headed pie in the sky!!

    If he ever gets serious about elucidating how he plans to go about achieving this beautiful-sounding goal, maybe I’ll start taking him seriously as a candidate.

    You go to his own website, it’s all about lowering taxes and yet somehow magically having lots MORE government money to spend on all kinds of wonderful goals.

    Nobody is reacting to the huge voids in the man’s thinking about how to lead our country economically — it’s Clinton, Obama, and McCain’s plans for how to lead America that we should be hearing about, discussing and comparing, or we Democrats are going to wind up losing the White House yet again.

  • Yawwwnnn…… said:

    We’ll maybe ‘we atheists’ are tired of being derided by YOU folks on the other side of the fence.

    First of all, where in my comment did I indicate in any way that I am a Christian or any other kind of deist?

    If you were truly objective about it and did your research you will find that those on the Religous Right are the ones doing the bashing to all the ‘non-believers’….

    So (:Tom:) referring to “pagan occult superstitious beliefs” isn’t ‘bashing’? Or are you saying that it’s okay to bash believers because they bashed you first?

    I have, in fact, criticized the Religious Right in the forum. It hasn’t been very often, because usually someone else beats me to it. But when I criticize the Religious Right or any other religious-based group, I comment on their words or their actions, not their beliefs.

    I think you miss the point. People like myself and Tom, don’t like being told that YOUR GOD is the ONLY GOD and that you and your followers are his little pets and the rest will burn in hell.

    And where did I say that? Even if I believe that, which I don’t, I wouldn’t say it.

    I was protesting against all absolutist beliefs. Are you and (:Tom:) any better than they are when you imply, or even say outright, that conservative Christians are stupid and or gullible for believing in what you think is superstitious nonsense?

    I’ll repeat the main point of my comment (#19) — Where is the proof for your assertion that your belief that there is no god is correct and that their belief that there is a god is wrong?

    To us non-believers it’s none of your business what I do with my mind and body. And furthermore, let’s keep it out of politics, just as the founding fathers of this great democracy wanted.

    I agree completely. But I ask again, why do you find it necessary to gratuitously insult people when you make this point? And why can’t you see that your point is lost because of people’s emotional response to your insult? You’re even alienating people who share all your policy positions but who still believe in a higher power.

    For what it’s worth, I am an agnostic. I believe that no one can know the true nature of the universe while on this side of the grave. But I keep an open mind, and if I ever encounter a bush that is burning but not being consumed I’ll pay attention.

    My cosmology comes from bits taken from a variety of sources. I believe in metaphysics, i.e. power outside the physical universe, because I have experienced it — but I haven’t pigeonholed that power into one of the conventional belief systems. Find parts of Gnostic Christianity compelling. And I find satisfaction in participating in the ceremonies of several pagan belief systems.

    I describe my own beliefs to make a final point. You didn’t know anything about me, but you assumed I was a conservative-leaning Christian because that assumption fit your own preconceptions.

    In the 19th century, Europeans exploring Africa heard stories from the natives about huge apes that were larger than men. Most educated Europeans dismissed these stories as superstition. They knew such creatures didn’t exist. Eventually they encountered into gorillas.


    Absence of proof is not proof of absence. Check your opinions at the door and you might learn something.

  • So, did everyone watch? Thoughts?

    I tried for about 2 minutes. Made me want to vomit, so I went back to Top Chef.

  • Two things that make me puke: religion in politics and HRC calling someone else “patronizing.”

  • To Steve:
    “I’ll repeat the main point of my comment (#19) — Where is the proof for your assertion that your belief that there is no god is correct and that their belief that there is a god is wrong?”

    First, you can’t prove the negative, and the onus of proof lies on the one making the claim of the existence in the first place. We don’t have to ‘prove’ god doesn’t exist, because we’re not making the claim of a supposedly verifiable thing (existence). If it does exist, however, you shouldn’t have a hard time proving it. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

    “that conservative Christians are stupid and or gullible for believing in what you think is superstitious nonsense?”

    Well, it’s pretty obvious that to believe those kinds of irrational, ridiculous things with no evidence and plenty of contradictory evidence, one would indeed have to be somewhat gullible, and not exactly have the sharpest critical thinking skills, no? There’s nothing wrong with pointing out the ridiculousness of it as long as they continue to inject those beliefs in public policy. If I started pushing for legislation based on the “truths” of my subjective experiences of voices in my head from creatures from another planet, you hardly would be rushing to my defense, would you, especially if those laws affected you.

  • JD Ryan said:
    First, you can’t prove the negative, and the onus of proof lies on the one making the claim of the existence in the first place. We don’t have to ‘prove’ god doesn’t exist, because we’re not making the claim of a supposedly verifiable thing (existence).

    The onus of proof is on the person making any absolute assertion. You can say that you don’t believe that God exists without proof. But stating that God does not exist is, itself, a positive assertion — i.e. an expression of a “truth”. So that positive assertion requires proof.

    Well, it’s pretty obvious that to believe those kinds of irrational, ridiculous things with no evidence and plenty of contradictory evidence, one would indeed have to be somewhat gullible, and not exactly have the sharpest critical thinking skills, no? There’s nothing wrong with pointing out the ridiculousness of it as long as they continue to inject those beliefs in public policy.

    What good does it do to tell people that they are being “irrational” and “gullible” and that the guiding force in their lives is “ridiculous”? Does that make them more likely to listen to you? Or does it only give them an excuse to disregard everything you say? Remember, you are also alienating your potential allies — people like liberal Christians.

  • The more I hear from (supposed) Hillary Clinton supporters like Comeback Bill and Greg, the more convinced I am that they are professionals put here either by the Clinton campaign or, more likely, by the same corporate interests that brought us the Neo-Conservative disaster. Their spurious reasoning and calculated rhetoric sounds like the same old propaganda/smear/fear machine we’re all know so well and are thoroughly disgusted with.

    I think I would rather believe this than to believe that there really is a substantial share of the Dem party who are shallow and reactionary at heart, and no better than Republicans.

    And I’m tired of people accusing this site of being “biased” toward Obama. I have been reading CBR for about 3 years now and, only recently, did opinions tip in favor of Obama. I think I even recall detecting a bit of pro-Clinton bias in our host (sorry Steve). Correct me if I’m wrong.

    Calling us biased is like calling a group of people who happen to support Clinton “biased toward Clinton”. Of course, when a consensus is reached, there is bias. That’s what happens in a Democracy. There are reasons why the consensus happened and we can all go on endlessly about those reasons. The Clinton supports either changed their minds or became marginalized and no longer feel comfortable in the debate.

    Then along comes ‘Comeback Bill’, ‘Mary’ and ‘Greg’ and, with the exception that they *claim* support for Hillary Clinton, they sound and behave just like the Republicans who have infiltrated the group for years.

    They certainly have a right to their opinions (giving the benefit of doubt that their opinions are even genuine) and are welcome here although I think we all wish they’d tone down their rhetoric.

    But to accuse CBR of some kind of “pro-Obama Conspiracy” is just stupid. The consensus happened organically, because Obama looks like the best candidate to most of us here. What’s wrong with that?

  • Obama made 1.2 million and he came from a single parent home.
    Hillary made 109.1 million and came from a family who had a summer cottage!
    McCains wife is worth over 300million
    Who’s more in touch?

  • And I’m tired of people accusing this site of being “biased” toward Obama… The consensus happened organically, because Obama looks like the best candidate to most of us here. What’s wrong with that? — JTK @ 35

    That’s my perception as well. In my case, Obama didn’t win me over so much as Clinton lost me, but they both got a fair shot.

  • 2. On April 14th, 2008 at 8:48 am, Comeback Bill said:
    I for one could accept that Barack misspoke in SF until his rant yesterday about Hillary being Anne Oakley. Just more condesending BS from the great BS’r. If Barack gets the nomination it will be 4 more years of McBush. You can’t disrespect most of the people all the time and be president. For the good of the country Barack should step aside and let the grown-ups run the country. Maybe in 8 years he will be ready for prime time but right now he’s nothing more than an educated elitest that can’t win

    That has to be the biggest load of shite I have ever read

    Bill go to the pub and have yourself a nice pint of Bitter and twisted

  • Ah, that old piece of crap: Absence of proof is not proof of absence. Strictly speaking, this is only true in the strict formal logic sense. Here in the real world, everyone (at least the logical ones) actually uses Bayesian logical frameworks to do anything productive, whether they realize it or not. Applied in the context of scientific reasoning, Absence of proof (aka evidence) can indeed be proof (aka evidence) of absence.

  • I can’t believe no one is making a big deal of Hillary’s remarks after being asked on Sunday when she last fired a gun or attended church services, appearently Clinton said the query was “not a relevant question in this debate”. Question: How could it not be? I’d for one like to know if she attends church services regularly or even goes at all. If she’s running around talking about how she values the Second Amendment, then I’d also like to know if she is an NRA member and for how long. She’s the one that is out of touch with the average American, so many years in Washington and still never learned how to cover up being phony.

  • I know we’re wandering afield here. But I’m having fun. I apologize if anyone is offended by my taking up bandwidth to continue this tangent.

    MLEsaid:
    Ah, that old piece of crap: Absence of proof is not proof of absence. Strictly speaking, this is only true in the strict formal logic sense. Here in the real world, everyone (at least the logical ones) actually uses Bayesian logical frameworks to do anything productive, whether they realize it or not. Applied in the context of scientific reasoning, Absence of proof (aka evidence) can indeed be proof (aka evidence) of absence.

    You don’t see irony in using “real world” solutions to resolve a metaphysical question?

    Bayesian analysis is okay for scientific hypotheses. But if you are putting a probability on the existence of God, what do you do with the “evidence” that thousands of people are certain they have received messages from Him? Do you dismiss every one of their claims out of hand by insisting that the communications are merely projections from their own subconscious? If you do, then isn’t the burden on you is to prove the communications are originating in their own minds? Otherwise, you’re just practicing circular reasoning:

    1) God doesn’t exist because there is no evidence He exists.

    2) All the people who believe God has communicated with them are wrong because God doesn’t exist.

    3) Therefore there is no evidence that God exists.

    All that aside,
    How is it helpful for atheists to insult people who are inclined to be sympathetic to the aims of atheists by ridiculing their beliefs?

  • Hardly a metaphysical question, as the belief/existence of god has lots of real world implications, and in addition to the assertion of many persons (and certain texts), and real world effects. I ridicule not your religious/metaphysical beliefs, but patently false statements apparently used to justify them.

    As to the question of people communicating with god, I need not reach the question of whether the do or not. Even assuming they believe they are communicating with god, this is poor evidence. It cannot be substantiated, tested, verified, among its many flaws. Moreover, memory and thoughts in many other contexts can be (have been) experimentally verified to be highly unreliable. Nor can they be reconcilled with each other: for every person you present who claims to communicate with (supposing for the sake of argument, the common christian notion) god, I can find one claiming to communicate with a mutually exclusive alternate god, negating the weight of this evidence.

    Compared with a great weight of evidence against such a god (again, the christian version) existing, the conclusion is not difficult. And yes, there are no way to avoid logical problems like “last Tuesday”-ism, among others. But Bayesian analysis asks not what is possible, but what should you believe in light of all the evidence available?

  • Obama’s message is clear, be sweet to some especially with money when the doors are closed, and bitter to others that have no money when the door is open. Or, is that other way around? LOL.

    One thing jumped out at me on the faith debate of CNN. Here, the entire political analyst across cable stayed away from the ideal Hillary made a point, a superb point, about not being “Bitter” but sharing and experiencing of Grace. Huge difference in the debate and the relationship for what a president needs as a sense of community and faith. Having Grace rather than, Bitterness is a towering example of the difference in Judgement. Obama has no clue and is on a rant to characterize Hillary as Annie Oakley. Well then I’m Roy Rodgers. LOL.

    On MSNBC Joe Scar uses the term gut feeling to direct the viewer away from any thing of mental church stuff. Very skillful of direct purpose. So, I know Joe Scar perceived the same thing I did and looked at it as a plus for Hillary yet tucked it away to the gut feeling. Wow wee butter the bias bread buddy. Joe Scar and MSNBC and Andrea Mitchell wife of former Federal Reserve Chairman Privy to trillion dollar connections isn’t elite? Daily making political comments about candidates all the while be connected to trillion dollar decisions is got to be sweet elite. Chris Mathews knows that.

  • Religion is the BIGGEST EVIL OF THE WORLD and has no business in politics. A politician can use the values they learn as a guideline by should not base ANY decision on their religion.

    Also, I find it very funny that both Obama and Hillary are now “flaunting” their “faith” when both have spent a huge amount of time accusing Bush of being too religious.

    It only shows how HYPOCRITE both candidates are. But one thing I can say, the Clintons are not part of a religion that preaches RACIAL HATE and intolerance.

  • “But if you are putting a probability on the existence of God, what do you do with the “evidence” that thousands of people are certain they have received messages from Him? .. isn’t the burden on you is to prove the communications are originating in their own minds? ” — Steve T

    Seems to me that different people tend to receive different and sometimes contradictory messages — messages that all too often just happen to coincide with their perspective on the world, or they way they were taught to look at the world. So either we have a reception problem, or multiple transmitters. Just one guy’s thoughts on the matter..

  • “But if you are putting a probability on the existence of God, what do you do with the “evidence” that thousands of people are certain they have received messages from Him? .. isn’t the burden on you is to prove the communications are originating in their own minds? ” — Steve T

  • Sorry about the repeat, had a comment glitch there.

    “But if you are putting a probability on the existence of God, what do you do with the “evidence” that thousands of people are certain they have received messages from Him? .. isn’t the burden on you is to prove the communications are originating in their own minds? ” — Steve T

    Well, first off, that’s not by any stretch of the imagination “evidence” any more than what was revealed to me the last time I ate magic mushrooms. With all of the fallibilities and illogic of the human mind, one’s alleged “communication” with god may indeed be all the evidence they need. It’s just not good enough once it leaves that mind for anyone who believes in facts and critical inquiry.

    This idea that somehow the burden of proof is on us to “prove’ something isn’t from the electric impulses in their brain is so ridiculous I don’t even know how to answer. If YOU experience it, YOU prove it.
    And as to your earlier response about ‘insulting’ them, well… first off, most people that would call themselves “liberal” Christians don’t seem to believe in a lot of this horseshit anyways. Second, I’m not in this to make friends. I’m just sick to death of peoples’ ignorance and magical thinking screwing it up for the rest of us.

  • #22: I wish that liberals and Democrats treated church-going America will less contempt.

    Blogs notwithstanding (and when you participate in discussions in places like this, it helps to have a bit thicker skin), few atheists treat religionists with contempt. Most never even let you know that they’re atheists or agnostics, don’t go door to door or do any other sort of proselytizing, and don’t believe in their heart of hearts that religionists are going to hell. If, in certain venues like liberal blog discussions, they let their hair down and say just how absurd they find religious belief to be, can you blame them? Imagine, as a believer yourself (apparently), that you frequented a blog wherein some of the people were worshippers of Zeus, Apollo, Athena, and the others in the Greek pantheon. Would you engage them in respectful discussion as if you could accept their beliefs? I seriously doubt it. You’d think they were round the bend, wouldn’t you? If so, then you should be able to understand the lack of credence we give to people who believe in the Christian god. As Stephen Roberts once said, “I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.”

  • Oh, and that whole appeal to numbers tack? Really lame! You could seriously stand to take a class in logical argumentation.

  • I am really getting tired of the pandering that goes on around religion, faith and “values”. This shouldn’t even be a consideration in politics. It is because of the right-wing fundamentalists who push their views and beliefs onto our society the way they push patriarchy in their own homes.

    However — and once again — Hillary Clinton proved to me why she will make a better president than Barack Obama. She isn’t about to give away women’s choice. She knows that reproductive choice is the root of choice and opportunity for women (and men, whether they believe it or not). Her answer to when life begins was so crystal clear that there is no comparison to Barack Obama’s non-answer.

    His response showed me, again, that women’s rights – particularly THIS right – are up for grabs as far as he is concerned. What kind of an answer was it that refused to clarify that it is a woman’s right to decide?

    The answer also reminded me that he is not, as some feminists believe, a true progressive on women’s issues. For added effect, all one need do is look at the number of derogatory and dismissive comments he has made about women in this campaign: “Oh, you’re likable enough, Hillary”; “She can stay in this race as long as she wants”; “…Annie Oakley, out there in a duck blind with her six-shooter”; “When she’s down, you know, she gets a little blue…”; “…downing a shot…and a beer…”. This is the very, very short list.

    If he can’t give a direct and solid answer to this question, the way Hillary Clinton did, he does not deserve Democrats’ support for POTUS. And he especially does not deserve it from “progressive” Democrats.

  • Obama got off pretty easy having read the whole quote.
    Clinton got it 1/3 right. It was patronizing. Elitist… nah, don’t see it.

    The word “cling” was the most disturbing to me.
    Bitter can be perfectly respectable. Clinging is almost never good.

    A Vietnam vet can be bitter about the lousy reception he got after sacrificing years of his life and brothers for his country and there’s nothing disrespectful about that, the shame is on those that wrong him. Similarly, those abandoned in small towns can be bitter and it’s no slight on them

    One can cling to faith in times of trouble, but 25 years of clinging…
    There’s a point at which the phrase “The Lord helps those who help themselves” may come into play and clinging to faith alone may be less than an optimal survival strategy.

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