Clinton, Obama clash over diplomacy

The interesting, and unexpected, political flap of the day is Hillary Clinton’s decision to go on the offensive against Barack Obama, following an interesting exchange from last night’s debate.

First, a little context. A questioner asked whether, “in the spirit of…bold leadership,” the candidates would be willing to “meet separately, without precondition, during the first year of your administration, in Washington or anywhere else, with the leaders of Iran, Syria, Venezuela, Cuba and North Korea, in order to bridge the gap that divides our countries?” Obama went first.

“I would. And the reason is this, that the notion that somehow not talking to countries is punishment to them — which has been the guiding diplomatic principle of this administration — is ridiculous. (APPLAUSE)

“Now, Ronald Reagan and Democratic presidents like JFK constantly spoke to Soviet Union at a time when Ronald Reagan called them an evil empire. And the reason is because they understood that we may not trust them and they may pose an extraordinary danger to this country, but we had the obligation to find areas where we can potentially move forward. And I think that it is a disgrace that we have not spoken to them.”

Then the question went to Clinton.

“Well, I will not promise to meet with the leaders of these countries during my first year. I will promise a very vigorous diplomatic effort because I think it is not that you promise a meeting at that high a level before you know what the intentions are.

“I don’t want to be used for propaganda purposes. I don’t want to make a situation even worse. But I certainly agree that we need to get back to diplomacy, which has been turned into a bad word by this administration. And I will purse very vigorous diplomacy.

“And I will use a lot of high-level presidential envoys to test the waters, to feel the way. But certainly, we’re not going to just have our president meet with Fidel Castro and Hugo Chavez and, you know, the president of North Korea, Iran and Syria until we know better what the way forward would be.” (APPLAUSE)

It was indicative of what we’ve seen a few times in these debates. Obama and Clinton both offered answers that were well received, but Obama spoke in general terms about broad themes, while Clinton focused on the details.

The surprising part, however, was Clinton’s campaign going after Obama on this today.

Indeed, Clinton referred to Obama’s comments as “irresponsible and frankly naive,” which is pretty strong language given the circumstances.

Clinton supporters characterized [Obama’s response] as a gaffe that underscored the freshman senator’s lack of foreign-policy savvy while Obama’s team claimed his response displayed judgment and a repudiation of President Bush’s diplomacy.

“I would think that without having done the diplomatic spadework, it would not really prove anything,” former Secretary of State Madeleine Albright said in a conference call with reporters set up by the Clinton campaign.

Obama’s team summoned Anthony Lake, who was national security adviser in President Clinton’s first term and now serves as a foreign policy adviser to Obama.

“A great nation and its president should never fear negotiating with anyone and Senator Obama rightly said he would be willing to do so — just as Richard Nixon did with China and Ronald Reagan with the Soviet Union,” Lake said.

I think by any fair measure, Clinton’s answer last night was more complete and demonstrated a more detailed understanding of international diplomacy. Obama seemed to be speaking to the broader notion of the U.S. dealing directly with rivals and enemies, but Clinton recognized some of the dangers involved with these kinds of diplomatic overtures. The question specifically alluded to negotiations “without precondition” and within the “first year” of the candidates’ presidency. I got the sense Clinton was probably more sensitive to the details than Obama was.

Clinton’s campaign seems anxious to take advantage of what they perceive as a gaffe, but this is trickier that it sounds. For one thing, frontrunners generally don’t go out of their way to go on the offensive against a candidate trailing by quite a bit in the polls.

For another, the criticism from the Clinton campaign seems predicated on the notion that Obama would be reckless and careless diplomatically. As Matt Yglesias put it:

[O]f course, if you construe what Obama said to mean that he intends to jet off to Pyongyang without any advance work having been done, I suppose that really would be “irresponsible and frankly naive,” but that hardly seems like a fair assessment.

Agreed. Hillary’s team emphasized today that they’d do all kinds of legwork before Clinton engaged in any kind of diplomacy with a country like North Korea. But the attack on Obama suggests he wouldn’t do the legwork, which hardly seems realistic.

In all, I think Clinton did a nice job with the response last night, and delivered a better answer than Obama did. But today’s follow-up might be a little too heavy-handed.

How is HRC’s response in April different from Obama’s last night??? I don’t see any “diplomatic spadework” in this following quote:

(CBS/AP) April 22, 2007 DECORAH, Iowa Hillary Rodham Clinton on Sunday criticized President Bush’s foreign policy, and said if she were president she would do things differently, including beginning diplomatic talks with supposed enemies and sending envoys throughout the world.

“I would begin diplomatic discussions with those countries with whom we have differences, to try to figure out what is the depth of those differences,” said Clinton, who spoke to about 1,000 people at Luther College in Decorah in northeastern Iowa.

“I think it is a terrible mistake for our president to say he will not talk with bad people. You don’t make peace with your friends — you have to do the hard work of dealing with people you don’t agree with,” said Clinton, who is seeking the Democratic presidential nomination.

Opening talks with other countries doesn’t mean the U.S. won’t defend its interests whenever necessary, she said, “but what it means is that we should discuss other routes before we decide we’re going to pursue military options.

“We cannot provide the leadership we need unless we are willing to try engage the other countries,” she said,

  • Tomorrow will she attack Edwards’ $400.00 haircut?

    It’s very discouraging to see Clinton using the central Republican talking point against Senator Obama, and it’s one more strike against her in my book.

  • imo, there wasn’t really anything wrong with obama’s answer, it was just a bit more general. i have no doubt that when the time were to come he would be savvy enough to go about it in the right way. hillary was simply splitting hairs, so to speak, and it bothers me that she thinks this is a good think to start attacking obama over.

  • I am a firm believer that in politics you don’t win the argument. You win by choosing the topic. For instance, if the topic on Hardball is, “Did Kerry shoot himself?”, it doesn’t matter how well you defend Kerry from those charges, he’s already lost. If it’s the even more pertinent and accurate question, “Are the Swift Boat Vets connected to the Bush campaign?”, or “Did Bush fail to appear for National Guard Duty?”, Kerry’s won.

    Here, Hillary has made headlines as tough on Terror, and effectively feminizes Obama any time he justifies playing nice with dictators. But by making it a debate about whether this is a Drudge-style manufactured controversy, Obama refuses to play along.

    I have my misgivings about Hillary — mostly because the press is absolutely insane when it comes to anyone named Clinton; they’ve showed relative restraint in the past few years — but I am in awe of them. They are the only Democrats, next to maybe Reid, whom I believe know how to play the game. They are as good as any cynical Republican, and they’re willing to do it to get some good things done.

    I’m really torn.

  • One more point. We are used to the Republicans “hitting below the belt.” Was Hillary’s hit a low blow? In time there will be a lot of counter-punching by all candidates.

  • “feminizes Obama”

    Oh Memekiller!

    Clinton simply knows more about everything than Obama does. She’s better. By the way- did you notice how she went for Gore supporters when she said “someone else” besides Bush won in 2000? Oh yeah.

    Clinton/Edwards 2008.

  • Clinton, in April…

    Clinton Blasts President Bush’s Foreign Policy
    http://wcbstv.com/us/local_story_112220939.html

    (CBS/AP) DECORAH, Iowa Hillary Rodham Clinton on Sunday criticized President Bush’s foreign policy, and said if she were president she would do things differently, including beginning diplomatic talks with supposed enemies and sending envoys throughout the world.

    “I would begin diplomatic discussions with those countries with whom we have differences, to try to figure out what is the depth of those differences,” said Clinton, who spoke to about 1,000 people at Luther College in Decorah in northeastern Iowa.

    “I think it is a terrible mistake for our president to say he will not talk with bad people. You don’t make peace with your friends — you have to do the hard work of dealing with people you don’t agree with,” said Clinton, who is seeking the Democratic presidential nomination.

    Opening talks with other countries doesn’t mean the U.S. won’t defend its interests whenever necessary, she said, “but what it means is that we should discuss other routes before we decide we’re going to pursue military options.

    “We cannot provide the leadership we need unless we are willing to try engage the other countries,” she said,

    She dished out plenty of criticism about the war in Iraq, and said when it comes to Iran, the U.S. needs to engage those with the real power — the clerics.

    Of Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad she said: “He’s like their front man, he’s like their puppet. He goes out and gets people agitated and says things that everybody responds to, but he’s not making the decisions. The decisions are being made within the alternative government of these clerics.

    “We have no idea of how these people think, we have no contact with them,” Clinton said, arguing that she’s advocated for years to have a process of diplomacy with Iran.

    “If we ever have to use force against any country, it should be seen as an action of last resort, not first resort,” she said.

  • I thought Clinton’s answer last night was very good in that it separated her from the Bush legacy and from Obama. But I think Team Clinton got a little greedy today and it is likely to backfire. She should have continued to emphasize her own more detailed, more nuanced approach and let voters connect the dots. Lashing out at Obama when his answer certainly hit the most important point probably was not below the belt, but I think it is counterproductive. As she pulls away, she’ll need Obama supports to jump ship to her. This is not going to help. And it makes her look like the first Dem going seriously negative. I think this is a rare political mistake by Team Clinton; I suspect they are starting to look for ways to consolidate their lead and wrap this thing up a little earlier with less cash spent and less wounds suffered and overreacted to a perceived opportunity to (keeping with the boxing analogies) put Obama on the canvas.

    As for Obama, while I thought his answer was fine, what I thought was missing was not Clintonesque detail but rather for Obama to really use the word he had to be thinking: “The refusal to talk to other countries because we think it punishes them is. . . childish.”

  • In order to win the nomination, the GOP candidates tack to the right and our top candidate tacks … to the right.

    Sigh….

  • Clinton, in April…

    What does this prove Vermonter? I don’t see any inconsistancy. As president she could “talk to bad people” in a number of ways. The question last night was about meeting face to face, as president, within the first year. Her answer was better than Obama’s and it absolutely did not contradict the statements cited by you in 9 and JRS JR in 1.

  • “I would think that without having done the diplomatic spadework, it would not really prove anything,” former Secretary of State Madeleine Albright said in a conference call with reporters set up by the Clinton campaign.”

    Haik, where the hell is the “spadework” reference in HRC’s April commentary?

  • Hey Haik,

    As CB says, I think Obama was not careful to answer the exact question. And was just a bit on auto-pilot and missed the points CB highlighted.

    But, if I think you could take Hillary’s comments out of context in that article and use it in the same intellectually dishonest way the Clinton campaign is using Barack’s remarks.

  • Haik, where the hell is the “spadework” reference in HRC’s April commentary?

    I think it’s there…

    “…“I would begin diplomatic discussions…”

    “…you have to do the hard work of dealing with people you don’t agree with…”

    “…arguing that she’s advocated for years to have a process of diplomacy with Iran….[Emphasis added.]”

    I don’t think she’s advocating having the president do all of this personally.

  • If you assume that Hillary left the “spadework” condition out of her attack on Obama, then, you have to presume that Obama imposed the same preconditions on talking to foreign dictators. Be consistent, people. Comments are being taken out of context and Hillary’s people are trying far too hard to make a mountain out of a molehill.

  • Seeing how the GOPers are in freefall these days with their 2008 “new bid for the WH” race-o-rama the DEMS surely are faring better even though that may only mean they are not laboring under the Bush/Cheney WH shadow as the GOP must because…well you know…the GOP is in the WH until Jan.2009.

    It becomes a game of hold your breath and pinch your nose shut…

    Hillary Clinton appears to be the stealth DEM WH candidate in that she is getting lots of free passes on her record,who she hobnobs with and most importantly her hawkish posture for American ME militarism and imperialism.

    Clearly the script that lies at the core of the Bush/Cheney WH contours in Iraq,the ME and pro-Israel meddling,brutal police state conduct and ongoing expungement of Arab Palestine will be carried forward should the WH Oval Office become HC’s.

    Giving Hillary the “clear this lane ” treatment may seem the thing to do or be doing but as last November’s elections show just getting the DEMS in the WH may not matter in WashDC where the long-run programs are geared to what in some cases( ME oil control,ME American hegemony, American “Israel can do no wrong” policies and plain American/Israeli collaboration to expunge Arab Palestine) are common and shared “two party DC run” agreed upons.

    I would suggest that this idea that the DEMS just bow down and give the WH bid to Hillary because she “owns it” is a dubious read of what needs to happen in the WH after The Decider departs in Jan.2009.

    Hillary would not be getting this “open lane” if she was not Mrs.Bill Clinton and was just another candidate who having been in the US Senate was using that position for a WH bid. Her record in the US Senate on Iraq is at best mid-pack. She seems pretty chummy with the corporatists. And she clearly is gaming on Iraq regarding her views as expressed on troop pullout and Iraq being left alone and free of American ME imperialism/militarism.

    Some questions for Hillary then being…

    Where is she on those superbases and that embassy citadel in Iraq?

    Why this “blame Iraq and Iraqis” for American Debacle in Iraq?

    Does she view Israels WestBank/Gaza police state styled brutality,the ongoing land grabs and Israels clear intent to expunge Arab Palestine as being in harmony with American broader credibiltiy issues in ME?

    Where is Hillary on Joe Lieberman?

    I am all for the idea of a woman being in the Oval Office. There are deeper questions about Hillary regarding her core views and creeds that are strangely getting a light touch and lots of “clear this lane” treatment.

    Getting into the WH Oval Office based on not being as “bad” as the other WashDC party is DC crapthink.

  • Before the debate I couldn’t decide between HRC or Obama. Now I’m in HRC’s camp. Obama has a tendency to always stay vague. Sounds good, but vague.

    Besides, I’m getting miffed about the so-called arguments against HRC. She isn’t be “soft” enough or “warm” enough, and when she goes for the jugular (like any of the men would), her “ambition” turns people off. She makes an effort to talk genuinely about her faith and she’s accused of acting. She can’t win for losing. It’s a common problem for a woman. I’m disappointed that some of those arguments are coming out in comments here re: her “heavy handedness” etc… Kerry wanted to stay positive and look where it got him!

  • She can’t win for losing.

    Which is why she won’t win. Obama will improve in the polls as we move into 2008. There is a large segment of the population that is not familiar with Barack yet. It’s my belief that HRC polls better now due mainly to name recognition. This ‘false positive’ will fade as the public consciousness turns to politics next year.

    Obama/Edwards in ’08!

  • I got the distinct impression from the answers last night that Hillary would be looking for reasons not to talk to those nations while Obama would look for reasons to talk to them.

  • Where do you people get the idea that this was an “attack” on Obama? Or that Clinton’s campaign is consulting some “how to play politics” manual to deliver the most politically covert savvy statements?

    ” I like to ride with the top down”…Obama.
    “Me too but I always look to the east to see if it’s very cloudy before I put it down”…Clinton
    Next day: “Obama hasn’t driven enough times with the top down and gotten caught in the rain to make him see how cloudy it is in the east first”…Clinton’s campaign.

    That’s about the level of this whole discussion. Hate to see what happens if anything really negative were actually said toward each other.

  • Mr. Carpetbagger,

    I think by any fair measure, Clinton’s answer last night was more complete and demonstrated a more detailed understanding of international diplomacy. Obama seemed to be speaking to the broader notion of the U.S. dealing directly with rivals and enemies, but Clinton recognized some of the dangers involved with these kinds of diplomatic overtures.

    Didn’t you just post early today about the need for Dem presidential candidates to stay away from details? That they should talk about principles? Perhaps this is a great example of what I was attempting to get at: principles vs. details matter in the generalelection, but not in the primaries. But if that’s true, how do we prevent the GOP from using the Dem candidate’s details against them?

    talk about a Catch-22. can’t win the primary without details, can’t win the general with them.

  • I think Hillary Clinton would make a lousy president, period. Not based on that answer, or any one answer, but on her perceived willingness to mouth whatever platitudes she thinks will go over well regardless of what she actually believes, or of what her actual intentions are. I can’t forget so easily how hawkish a game she talked, in what would be termed “very recently” in all but political terms. Hillary would be another president anxious to use the military as a blunt instrument to enforce U.S. policy and strategic interests, quite likely without any regard for their being humans rather than pieces on a chessboard.

    She would likely argue that was only a position she had to argue from; that Democrats were never listened to if they were believed to be soft on terror and afraid to make decisions that would result in casualties.

    So, if you’re perceived to be too much of a Democrat, the answer is to act more like a Republican?

    I just find Obama more thoughtful and introspective; more presidential. That said, I don’t get a vote, so it doesn’t matter what I think.

  • talk about a Catch-22. can’t win the primary without details, can’t win the general with them.

    That’s a sharp observation, Edo. Nice one.

  • Obama is in some difficulty on stating his willingness to meet with leaders of countries that we don’t like. In reality, his response is correct, although the explanation is too intricate to counteract the initial impression Hillary emphasized.

    By “pre-conditions” the questioner undoubtedly meant insurmountable ones such as fair and free elections in Syria. These act as barriers to any diplomatic discourse. And, as Obama pointed out later, there would be planning before any meeting.

    If these were real debates with time for exchanges between candidates these points would have become clear. But they are not and, in the meantime, Obama must be alert for the appropriate, firm soundbites.

    homer http://www.altara.blogspot.com

  • OK — HRC’s response sounds to me like the tough talk politics that is fatal to diplomacy — see the NYT editorial on Condi Rice on not talking to bad guys — they are precisely the people we need to talk to — the Mid-East peace talks are doomed before they start without Hamas & everyone knows it.

    I will vote for the Democratic nominee, but I like HRC less & less all the time & expect her to lose if she gets the nomination — I don’t think our country can take that.

  • This is a terrible mistake on the part of Obama. It highlights his nascent view of the role of the Presidency in a complex world, as well as his tendency to dismiss important details while indulging his preference for the broad and ambiguous.

    The question, while complex, was clear: As President, would you be willing to meet, individually, with the leaders of Cuba, Iran, North Korea, Syria and Venezuela within a year of taking office and without preconditions.

    Obama: “Sure!”. Clinton: “Not so fast!”.

    This would be a second time where Obama didn’t pay attention to the details of a question.

    In the first debate, when asked about how, as President, he would respond to a double-attack by Al Quaeda, Obama rambled on about first responders and determining who was behind the attack.

    It’s not Clinton’s fault that Obama failed to grasp the pertinent details of thoughtful questions. And, she has every right to point out his lack of understanding and attention to detail in his answers.

    You have to get up pretty early to beat Clintons. Obama, it seems, is still sleeping in.

  • Another discussion

    http://forum.sonshi.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=2468

    I am not at all up to date about any controversies.
    But I’d go for the Senator Obama stance.

    Senator Obama is taking up the leadership responsibility that is becomming to leaders, breaking through vested interests and risking to create better circumstances.
    In my opinion it is always good to have a chat.

    Senator Clintons stance I find selfserving.

    Intentions in general should be well known already, acummulated through a 40 billion a year intell-community I’d expect at least a tiny file on the ‘opposing’ leaders/countries
    If Senator Clinton does not want to be used for propaganda purposes she should have gotten out of politics a few years ago, I’d say.
    Then she admits that she is not fit to be used as a propaganda tool, because she’d make it worse ???
    Then she admits not to know the way forward.

    Damn… how easy does it get?

  • What do you all think about the Clinton-Obama row over meeting with the leaders of Iran, Syria, Venezuela and North Korea?

    Personally, though Clinton seemed more measured, her answer delivers us more of the same. I really liked Obama’s fresh approach.

    This is an important issue that is key to reversing the damage that Bush/Cheney has done to American image in the world. Vote on your preferenc on http://www.youpolls.com/details.asp?pid=251

    Make your voice heard. It’s important.

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