Clinton pulling a fast one? Hillary backs Michigan, Florida delegates

By any reasonable standard, the presidential nominating process is a bit of a mess, and badly in need of reform. But there is a calendar in place, there are rules, and everyone agreed to accept the system, as is, at least until after the election.

Which is why this statement from Hillary Clinton’s campaign raised more than a few eyebrows late yesterday.

“I hear all the time from people in Florida and Michigan that they want their voices heard in selecting the Democratic nominee.

“I believe our nominee will need the enthusiastic support of Democrats in these states to win the general election, and so I will ask my Democratic convention delegates to support seating the delegations from Florida and Michigan. I know not all of my delegates will do so and I fully respect that decision. But I hope to be President of all 50 states and U.S. territories, and that we have all 50 states represented and counted at the Democratic convention.

“I hope my fellow potential nominees will join me in this.

“I will of course be following the no-campaigning pledge that I signed, and expect others will as well.”

Ezra noted, “This is a very, very, very big deal,” adding, “This is the sort of decision that has the potential to tear the party apart.” That may sound hyperbolic, but the Clinton campaign is clearly pushing the propriety envelope to a point that should make Dems uncomfortable.

Because this can get confusing, let’s consider a little context. The Democratic National Committee, hoping to maintain some semblance of control over the nominating calendar, mandated that Iowa would hold the first caucus, followed by New Hampshire with the first primary. Nevada would go third with its caucus, and South Carolina’s primary would round out the first four. The DNC said every other state could move its contest up to Feb. 5, but no sooner.

Michigan and Florida blew off the DNC’s mandate, and moved up their primaries. The DNC responded by punishing both states, stripping Michigan and Florida of their delegates to the national convention. With no delegates, their presidential primaries effectively became meaningless.

Indeed, in Florida’s case, each of the candidates agreed to play by the DNC’s rules and vowed not to campaign in the state at all. In Michigan, the candidates agreed not to “participate” in the state’s primary, which led John Edwards and Barack Obama to remove their names from Michigan’s primary ballot. For reasons that have never been clear, Clinton promised not to participate in Michigan’s contest, but she refused to take her name off the ballot.

Now, one can certainly make the argument that the DNC was overly harsh in its punishment. And one can argue that the candidates were wrong to protect the integrity of the nominating calendar. But under the circumstances, these are tangents — the candidates did agree to play by these rules. All of them had plenty of opportunities to argue against these rules while they were being written, but each vowed to respect the process.

And now Clinton seems to be making an effort to change the rules in the middle of the game. Josh Marshall explains:

[Y]ou don’t change the rules in midstream to favor one candidate or another. This is no more than a replay, with different factual particulars, of the attempt to outlaw the at-large caucuses in Nevada after the Culinary Union endorsement made it appear they would help Barack Obama.

Perhaps there’s some detail of this question that I’m not aware of. And if there is I’ll revise my opinion accordingly. But based on what I know now this is pretty clear-cut.

Hillary can muscle for every advantage she wants. Good for her. She’s a fighter. But everyone else should see this for what it is and say No.

Obviously, Clinton easily won Michigan; she wasn’t running against anyone. She’s likely to cruise to victory in Florida, given that her rivals aren’t competing in the state. Basically, Clinton is pulling a stunt in the hopes of making these victories count, after she’d already agreed that they wouldn’t. (Worse, one of the reasons Clinton, Edwards, and Obama agreed to play by the rules was to curry favor in Iowa and New Hampshire. Now that Clinton no longer feels like she has to worry about impressing, she’s reversing course.)

One of the striking angles to this is how unnecessary it seems. If Clinton were confident that she’s in a position to win the necessary number of delegates, this move is entirely superfluous. Rather, this seems like an insurance ploy in the event of a brokered convention.

And why does this have the potential to “tear the party apart”? Because, as Ezra argued, if Clinton uses Michigan and Florida to capture the nomination, “the Obama camp, and their supporters, really will feel that she stole her victory. They didn’t contest those states because they weren’t going to count, not because they were so committed to the DNC’s procedural arguments that they were willing to sacrifice dozens of delegates to support it. Clinton is changing the game here. It’s as hard as hardball gets, and the end could be unimaginably acrimonious.”

Stay tuned.

What is going on in the Clinton camp? They have completely gone off the deep end in their mad dash to regain power. The end result will be, lots of rabidly partisan Democrats, myself among them, will find ourselves unable to pull the lever for Hillary in good conscience come November.

I’m hoping no funny business happens in South Carolina today . . .

  • Clinton’s campaign said in a statement today that Obama’s new ad is a “clear and blatant violation” of a pledge the Democratic candidates made last year not to campaign in Florida, after the Democratic Party punished the state for moving its primary to a date earlier than was sanctioned. Many Florida homes watch CNN and MSNBC, her campaign noted. “The Obama campaign knows this, but has chosen to violate the pledge regardless,” her campaign said.

    Obama spokesman Bill Burton responded in a statement that the two networks said it would be impossible to exclude Florida TV sets from a national ad. “For that reason we consulted with the South Carolina Democratic Party Chair Carol Fowler, who told us unequivocally she did not consider this to be in violation of pledge made to the early states,” Burton said.

    Having her cake and eating it too.

  • For reasons that have never been clear, Clinton promised not to participate in Michigan’s contest, but she refused to take her name off the ballot.

    I guess you mean “never been clear until now.”

  • If she’s elected, I hope she uses every loop hole, every dirty trick in the book against the Republican obstruction in Congress.

  • She’s just concerned about winning the general election. She wants to make sure the Florida and Michigan Democrats don’t end up feeling screwed and de-energized about the voting process by the time the general election rolls around. She doesn’t need the support of the Florida or Michigan delegates to win the primary at all.

  • Hillary and Bill are brazenly corrupt. They always have been and always will be.

    I can’t understand why so many are still so enamored with the Clintons.

    The Clintons set the tone for dishonesty and cynicism that justified BushCo to say and do whatever they want…. “because they can”. As Slick Willie said regarding why he had his intern give him oral sex, “because he could”.

    Folks, it was not a very good eight years….. Heath care reform debacle, the Republican landslide, I did not have sex with that women… depends on the definition of what the word “is” is, the right wing conspiracy… lying to a grand jury, having sex with a young intern under his employ, stained dress as evidence, DNA tests, Whitewater, Hillary’s destroyed documents, the small investment that magically turned into a fortune, Marc Rich and cash for Pardons. All of the missed opportunities and lost years because of Monica.

    Don’t we deserve a chance at something better?

  • the Clinton campaign is clearly pushing the propriety envelope to a point that should make Dems uncomfortable.

    And this is suprising how?

    Being the yellow dog Democrat that I am, I’ll be voting for a yellow dog come November 5, should Obama or Edwards not be the candidate of the Democratic Party.

    I’ll ask you Clinton folks again: you’re sure this is the candidate who – as President – will voluntarily relinquish the powers George Bush took?

  • It is all about her, her, her. To hell with the rest of the country; to hell with splitting the party apart. She doesn’t care. It is all about her, her, her.

    With HIllary one thing is true. You simply cannot trust her.

  • Who didnt think this was possible the first time they heard HRC left her name on the ballot?

  • Has anyone else noticed that so many Obama supporters openly admit that if their candidate doesn’t win they won’t vote for the Democratic nominee? No wonder the Republicans win so easily.

  • Hillary and Bill’s behavior during this entire campaign so far has been reprehensible. Sure, I’ll vote for her if she’s the nominee but I will do so unenthusiastically. I certain won’t work for her, nor will I contribute.

    Really, folks, can’t we do better than this? And what is so compelling about Hillary’s candidacy that makes it worth the price to the party and the country?

  • Lars at #6 has it right– the debacle of the Bush years has made us collectively look back on the Clinton years as some sort of golden era. In reality, it was an era of wasted potential, in which matters of substance gave way to tabloid-level scandals. Who wants that back? That will only give momentum to the Republicans, allowing them to once again appear to be the “adults in the room,” allowing them to re-take Congress a la 1994, and ensuring that a Republican will win in 2012 (without Ross Perot around, Clinton victories are a bit more precarious). Just when we thought things were going to get good again . . .

  • If Clinton (excuse me, the Clintons) win, it will be the first time in 42 years I have NOT voted Democratic.

  • She does this because she’s a sleaze (as is her hubby) and she (they) can’t help it. I’m disgusted with the both of them.

  • It isn’t HRC fault Obama and Edwards took their names off the MI ballot as a ploy to suck up to Iowa, MI wasn’t considered favorable to Obama/Edwards anyway so they had incentive to downplay it.

    It has always been destiny that the issue of seating FL and MI would eventually come up if there were otherwise no clear winner. HRC is just bringing it up now to play to resentment in FL with the FL election coming up soon.

    There is a lot of resentment in FL because it was a Republican controlled legislature that insisted on the early election date.

  • mlunn: Has anyone else noticed that so many Obama supporters openly admit that if their candidate doesn’t win they won’t vote for the Democratic nominee?

    That’s because many Obama supporters are not so much Obama supporters as people who want to vote Democratic but find Obama the only acceptable choice left to vote for. This is about excluding Clinton as an acceptable president. If Obama wasn’t in the race I still would be unlikely to vote for someone as dishonest as Clinton. We don’t need a third term of Bush/Rove politics.

    Swan She’s just concerned about winning the general election.

    That’s nonsense. Everyone expects that the Michigan and Florida delegates will be seated once the nomination battle is settled. It is a different matter to change the rules in the middle of the game before the nomination is decided. Here in Michigan this is being viewed as Clinton cheating, considering she already pulled a fast one in keeping her name on the ballot after others had their names removed. This will hurt, and not help, Clinton’s chances of winning Michigan.

  • @18

    Clinton was under no obligation to take her name off the MI ballot, there were other Dems who left their names on also. Taking their names off was a ploy by Obama and Edwards to curry favor with Iowa, their choice.

  • The sad reality of politics is that in ten years when Obama has “baggage” from making difficult decisions, many people will describe him as dishonest.

    We Democrats hold our public officials to higher standards than we expect of ourselves.

  • From the post:

    “She’s likely to cruise to victory in Florida, given that her rivals aren’t competing in the state. “

    Obama has ads running in FL. How is HRC competing more than Obama?

  • Is anybody really surprised by this? I have talked with my friends about the possiblity that Clinton would try to restore Michigan if things got tight down the line.

    If she truly tries that stunt, many will see it for the blatent cheating power grab that it is.

    The mere fact that she has floated this idea publicly should make anyone on the fence or slightly leaning her way reconsider.

    I have said it before, if it looks like poo and splats like poo and smells like poo, then it is probably poo.

  • Florida doesn’t bother me since it hasn’t happened yet and at least everyone has been on an even playing field, but trying to change the rules for Michigan after the contest is over disgusts me to no end. I will vote for Obama or Edwards but if Hillary is the nominee then I will write in someone else. Of course I’m in Alabama so doing that won’t have any impact. Bozo the Clown could be the Republican nominee and he would still win here.

  • What is so amazing to me is that the Clinton supporters (apologists) – cannot see or admit that what she is doing is just what has been happening for the last 8 years (or more). We (many lifelong Democrats like myself) just see the Clinton (Bill and Hillary) behavior as just more of the same old ____ – and we are SO sick of that.
    By the way, I totally intended to vote whoever the Democratic nominee was going to be – up until the last three weeks. I will NOT vote for Clinton(s).

  • John, Politics is a dirty business. I support Clinton because she can play dirty. She is a fighter. She has a chance once elected to be effective. As much as I like Obama, I think he’s going to be eaten alive on the big stage. The press will turn on him; his supporters seem to expect him to walk on water and will be bitter if he even sinks up to his ankles. If he is nominated, I hope he proves to be as good as his supporters think he is. If he’s elected, I really hope he’s up to the task. This country is in such bad shape that even six months of on the job training will cause amazing harm.

  • “I will NOT vote for Clinton(s).”

    How come I never see anyone post that about teh awesome Obama?

  • Horselover Fat is right. The primary date change WAS the result of a Rethug controlled legislature, who have been laughing their collective asses off at the Dem Party outrage ever since. Anyone remember 2000? Is it really a good idea to alienate the moderate Repubs and independent voters in such an important swing state, with such punative dumbassery?

  • Oy.

    Am I surprised? No.

    The Weaselly MacAuliffe Wing of the Democratic Party is alive and well. The Clintons and their minions have made a career of advantageous hair-splitting and technicality-wrangling; this is simply one more example.

    As Ron @18 said, there are many progressive voters out there looking for Democrats to give us an worthy nominee. (FWIW, I support either Edwards or Obama.)

  • How come I never see anyone post that about teh awesome Obama?”

    Hmm . . . maybe because he is not employing underhanded tactics that will ultimately tear apart the Democratic coalition? Just a thought.

    (And, no, he did not start the race-baiting meme. That was a media-generated fabrication– neither campaign is to blame for that one).

  • Jen @27

    It is also about maturity. Revenge and punishment may be emotionally satisfying, but they do not move the ball down the field.

  • I think criticism over this is just looking for something to get mad about. If I were in Michigan and Florida I would be plenty mad. And since we need those states to win, its stupid to exclude them for any reason. I knew Clinton would smartly go this route and there is nothing wrong with it in my judgment. Claiming this is Clinton sleaze merely reveals the very strong bias of the accuser.

  • Jen. Why on earth would you WANT a dirty cheater as you claim, you feel the country is in such bad shape. Aren’t we in this position because of the last dirty lying cheat?

    I don’t buy this arguement. The reason so many people like Obama is because he offers the hope of somethng different. Will he face challenges? Of course. But one does not get the the United States Senate by being incapable. And no….I do not think he walks on water. He is just a man

    This latest message from Clinton that she would try to get those Michigan deligate reinstated is so blatently win at all costs it is sick. I seriously hope she backs down from this. I would plug my nose and vote for her under most situations, but this would likely push me (and many others) away.

  • caped@30

    “Hmm . . . maybe because he is not employing underhanded tactics that will ultimately tear apart the Democratic coalition? Just a thought.”

    Perceptions on this may differ. YMMV.

  • Amen to that Jen.

    Obama is untested, and if he and his supporters are so outraged over a perceived slight, such as the MLK thing, then come this fall the Repug slime machine will bury him.

  • caped @ 30

    Actually, my complaint about Obama isn’t so much that his tactics are underhanded as that they backfire.

    Obama: – the Wile E. Coyote of candidates. If that’s what you Obama people want taking on McCain or Romney.

  • jen flowers said:
    If she’s elected, I hope she uses every loop hole, every dirty trick in the book against the Republican obstruction in Congress.

    The reason I, and many other liberals, will have a very hard time voting for Clinton is that I believe that she won’t be working against the Republican obstruction in Congress. What I’m afraid of is a return to Clintonian triangulation, where Clinton stakes out a third position on issues that is halfway between the Republicans and the Democrats. The trouble is the Democrats will have alrealdy tried to meet the Republicans halfway, so Clinton will be able to claim a victrory, but the progressive majority of the Democratic party will get screwed (again). And we’ll end up with exactly what the DLC and their corporate masters want — Republican Lite… all the policies, half the meanness.

    If my state looks like it’s pretty safely red, I will probably end up voting for the Green Party in the desperate hope that the Greens will gain major party status and be able to serve as a counterweight to the pro-life corporate party and the pro-choice corporate party.

    Once again, I am so fucking tired of having to vote for the least odious candidate in presidental elections.

  • From Slate’s TrailHead, which has certainly been much more pro-Obama than pro-Clinton:

    FLORENCE, S.C. – No matter how many “truces” the Clintons and Barack Obama call, no one seems willing to concede the last shot.

    At tonight’s rally, Obama rattled off his usual litany of defensive parries. . .
    But then Obama unwrapped a new slam, fresh from the speechwriters’ pen, no more than a couple days old: “If you get the war wrong, and you get health care wrong, it’s not a question of being ready on Day One,” he said, borrowing Hillary’s favorite line. “It’s a question of being right on Day One.”

    Just goes to show that when it comes to unprovoked attacks, no one is innocent. What’s a truce when you’ve got a zinger like that?

    So dont act all surprised and hurt and wronged when, since Obama broke the truce with no time to respond before the election (a bit of sharp campaigning on his part) the Clinton’s come out pissed and go after Obama hard.

    The Obama camp seems awfully thin skinned. As Digby pointed out yesterday, this has been a very tame campaign, yet the Obama supporters spin it like the Clintons are running the dirtiest campaign in history.

    The Michigan and Florida thing is a total non-issue. Anyone who didn’t see this coming isn’t watching very closely. The Michigan and Florida delegates has always been a lingering question, I have always assumed they would, at the end, be seated. Near as I can tell HRC isn’t taking any particularly active steps – she simply announced an opinion on the question contrary to the DNC’s decision. Did it play well in those states? Probably. Was it politically convenient of her? Sure. You expect a campaign to do politically harmful things? Seriously, how is this even a questionable thing to do? Saying things that make people like you is what campaigns do.

    Really, it appears the Obama camp is either (a) unprecedentedly thin-skinned or (b) engaging in its own clever politics of feigned indignation to play up the meme of the Clintons as sleazy. I’m not sure either speaks well.

  • Jen Flowers,

    I don’t hate the Clintons and therefore won’t vote for them, I hate what they stand for, that’s why I will not vote for them. Their political (and personal morals) are no better than anyone associated with the current Bush regime, so if they win, it will be four, or heaven’s forbid eight more years of America digging a deeper hole for itself.

    I am supporting Obama as I believe that this country needs to change and Obama is carrying that message. Will he be able to do everything he wants, probably not? But at least he will try, and that is an American that many of us want to see rise again, and not continue to live in fear, as it appears you do, of the Republicans. The 28 percenters wont be happy until they get another 28 percenter back at the top so let’s acknowledge they exist, but let’s stop the fear. You are only perpetuating their meme, divide and rule. Let’s try and unite and rule for a change.

  • “As Digby pointed out yesterday, this has been a very tame campaign, yet the Obama supporters spin it like the Clintons are running the dirtiest campaign in history.”

    The difference is cable television like Hardball, along with the blogs. People are just getting much more exposure to this stuff than they used to, so more awareness of it.

    Also, as I said before with my Wile E. Coyote comparison, a lot of the stuff Obama does is “just too clever by half.”

  • I share the frustration and anger at the unlawful debacle that has been Bush’s presidency, but wanting to regain power back at all costs through encouraged use of dirty tricks to out play the “slime machine” doesn’t move our country forward. The hard core Democrats need to understand that 50%+ of the country do not agree with our positions. Obama does, but packages it in a way that excites a lot of people that Hillary never could precisely because he doesn’t play the game as an “experienced” politician. If Hillary wins the primary with her scorched earth, Karl Rovian campaign I will have no qualms about not voting for her. Her presidency will only be another swing of the pendulum. Obama has shown that he excites the independent voters. A pool of voters that grows after every campaign because as a nation we are getting tired of politicians putting themselves before country.

  • zeitgeist

    The issue isn’t one of some imaginary truce. We expect politicians to criticize each other.

    The objection to Clinton is not that she has criticized Obama but that she has outright lied about what Obama has said and has been using racism as a major part of her campaign.

    Clinton supporters typically respond by drawing false equivalencies between legitimate criticism based on issues and the Clinton smear campaign.

    Someone who has been this dishonest in campaigning is likely to be similarly dishonest as president. Between being wrong on so many issues and being as dishonest as the Republicans have been, Hillary Clinton gives me no reason to vote for her.

  • It’s smart on Hillary Clinton’s part to do this to win some good will among Democrats in Michigan and Florida, to better woo voters on election day if she’s the candidate for the Democrats. It would be best to work out some sort of deal with both states before the convention to sooth hard feelings anyway.

  • You all need to read what a reader said about this whole thing for a totally different explanation, ending with this: “As so often in this last three weeks, one gets the impression that Hillary’s team is playing a move ahead of both Obama and the media.”

  • And, how exactly, has Hillary been using racism as part of her campaign?

    You must be kidding–or totally closing your eyes to how Clinton has been running her campaign. Some examples are here:

    http://liberalvaluesblog.com/?p=2767

    Even former Clintonite Robert Reich agrees on their use of race: “While it may be that all is fair in love, war, and politics, it’s not fair – indeed, it’s demeaning – for a former President to say things that are patently untrue (such as Obama’s anti-war position is a “fairy tale”) or to insinuate that Obama is injecting race into the race when the former President is himself doing it.”

    http://liberalvaluesblog.com/?p=2773

  • #37, SteveT,

    Anyone who is elected will have to “triangulate” in order to be effective. Obama’s comments about reaching out to Republicans is also “triangulation.” The Democratic party is not 100% liberals. Triangulation is part of the compromise essential in a democracy.

    I hear over and over how corrupt the Clintons are. Bill’s administration had the fewest number of indictments and resignations under fire in recent history. We have all been told over and over how corrupt they are by MSM and now accept that without reflection. I started out anti-Hillary and much to my surprise, the more I investigated her, the more I liked her.

    Hillary is not scorching the earth – it’s a mild campaign compared with recent Democratic elections. What happened to Howard Dean was far far worse.

    I just wish everyone would take a step back from their preconceptions.

    Whoever the Democrats nominate will have my total support. I’m hoping that person will be Hillary Clinton.

  • Ron at 42

    “The objection to Clinton is not that she has criticized Obama but that she has outright lied about what Obama has said and has been using racism as a major part of her campaign.”

    You can’t document any of that. That is just spin from the media, which is using it to hype their ratings and get eyeballs on the screen. Saying stuff over and over doesn’t make it so, just makes it a Goebbels alternate reality.

    meme at 45,

    The Obama’s problem is they just don’t think ahead to the ultimate consequences of their ploys and stategems.

  • On Jan. 17 Zeitgeist wrote a very impressive list of accomplishments by the Clinton Administration in spite of a Newt Gingrich/Tom Delay/Trent Lott congress. I was so impressed (still am) that I printed it and put it in the drawer with other articles I find that I don’t think will become easily accessible, should I want to find them later.

    Now, on top of that list is the last page from the Obama Formal Complaint in Nevada. It was a list of guidelines given to Clinton precinct captains. It includes, “It’s not illegal unless they tell you so.” and “GET CREATIVE!!” (caps in original).

    My point is only that with such an arsenal of accomplishments, it is a real shame the Clintons are doing this type of campaign. It’s as if the lessons of the Bush years is simply that the rules have changed. I was strongly against the impeachment of Clinton. I strongly support the impeachment of Bush and Cheney. If Clinton wins the nomination, I will vote for her, but I will be strongly inclined to support her impeachment as well.

  • You can’t document any of that. That is just spin from the media, which is using it to hype their ratings and get eyeballs on the screen.

    Can’t document it. Nonsense. I’ve already documented this many times. Check out some of these posts:

    http://liberalvaluesblog.com/?cat=43

    This is not spin at all. Clinton has repeatedly been caught lying. Her campaign has been far dirtier than anything done in the 2004 campaign as she has lowered herself to the level of the worst of the Republicans.

  • If you stare into abyss long enough, your mind will create really scary things to see too.
    I still don’t see how you connect calling Obama’s position a fairy tale as racist.

    Based on your logic, anyone who disagrees with Clinton is a misogynist.

  • If you stare into abyss long enough, your mind will create really scary things to see too.
    I still don’t see how you connect calling Obama’s position a fairy tale as racist.

    What a straw man attack. I guess Clinton’s supporters are as dishonest as Hillary and Bill. The fairy tale remark is hardly the case for the use of racism by the Clintons.

  • But then Obama unwrapped a new slam, fresh from the speechwriters’ pen, no more than a couple days old: “If you get the war wrong, and you get health care wrong, it’s not a question of being ready on Day One,” he said, borrowing Hillary’s favorite line. “It’s a question of being right on Day One.”

    Just goes to show that when it comes to unprovoked attacks, no one is innocent. What’s a truce when you’ve got a zinger like that?

    What Ron said. Lying about an opponent, distorting his or her record and their words, and misrepresenting their character should be looked down on, whereas criticizing an opponent’s actual record, words, character, etc. in order to show how you would be different and better is appropriate. Such campaigning isn’t as ideal as pointing out differences in policy and past accomplishments, but it is germane and it does have a larger effect on voters. There is, of course, a confusing gray line: what the victim perceives as a scurrilous and unfounded attack is often seen by the attacker as an unbiased account of the opponent’s shortcomings.

    I see Obama’s latest charges as a legitimate and succinct summary of some very good reasons for not voting for HRC in the primary election. If she wins, I’ll go to the polls in November saying, “She’s way better than the Republican, and I’ll mostly be happy with her appointees”. I will be hoping that enough other people see fit to do the same.

  • I don’t’ remember hearing charges that Bill Clinton was corrupt the two time he won the presidency? I didn’t hear any charges of corruption when Hillary Clinton won two elections to the U.S. Senate? So why are those unfounded charges rearing their ugly head now? Where’s the beef?

    Sen. Clinton and her supporters have consistently said they will support whoever wins the Democratic nomination. Commenter’s here, who clearly support other candidates, are saying that if Clinton wins they wouldn’t both to vote. THAT makes YOU part of THE PROBLEM and NOT part of the solution.

    Grow up! The political process has not changed in the last 50 years — if ever.

    Voting irregularities are nothing new, or are you forgetting all the dead people in Chicago who voted when paper ballots were being used?

    “As Digby pointed out yesterday, this has been a very tame campaign, yet the Obama supporters spin it like the Clinton’s are running the dirtiest campaign in history.”

    It’s politics, baby … get used to it!

    BAC

  • What a straw man attack. I guess Clinton’s supporters are as dishonest as Hillary and Bill. The fairy tale remark is hardly the case for the use of racism by the Clintons.
    ———
    Um, wasn’t that your example?

  • Um, wasn’t that your example?

    No, it was not my example I linked to a post which quotes several examples, with other cases also having been cited since then. The “fairy tale” remark only becomes significant as part of a larger pattern, with this not being the most significant incident.

  • BAC @ 55 “The political process has not changed in the last 50 years — if ever.”

    This is a variation of the Republican mantra, “Everybody does it.” The effect of this accepting this thinking is that bad behavior is reinforced. And it has changed in 50 years. It has gotten worse.

  • “THAT makes YOU part of THE PROBLEM and NOT part of the solution.”

    I don’t see the Clinton’s’ center-right solutions as something that will benefit the country at all (or that much different from the current right-right solutions for that matter), so I would much rather continue being part of the problem until our serious national ills are finally addressed seriously in a way that benefits someone beyond a tiny subset of rich people and richer corporations. Your mileage obviously varies.

  • It’s politics, baby … get used to it!

    I’d rather change it than get used to it. Some politicians are far more dishonest than others. As long as the Democrats present a cleaner alternative to the Republicans I’ll vote for them. If they nominate candidates like Hillary Clinton who acts like a Republican I see no reason to vote Democratic.

    The system will not be changed if we just get used to it and look the other way when such dishonesty is going on when it comes from ones own party. I will not give Hillary Clinton a pass for engaging in the same types of dishonest behavior as I’ve been criticizing George Bush for.

  • It’s the last straw for me – and I’ve defended the Clintons for 15 years.

    Combine this with the Clinton campaign lawsuit against the casino caucuses in Nevada, and it becomes clear that “voters’ voices being heard” is NOT what Clinton cares about. She only cares about getting the nomination, and doesn’t care what she does to the Democratic Party, or to Democratic voters, in the process.

    It burns me, it really really burns me to say this, but maybe the Clintons’ detractors are right.

  • Bob Herbert’s latest column also reviews the use of race by the Clinton campaign. After providing some examples he writes:

    “The Clinton camp knows what it’s doing, and its slimy maneuvers have been working. Bob Kerrey apologized and Andrew Young said at the time of his comment that he was just fooling around. But the damage to Senator Obama has been real, and so have the benefits to Senator Clinton of these and other lowlife tactics.”

    http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/26/opinion/26herbert.html?_r=1&hp&oref=slogin

  • Digby over at Hullabaloo has a good comment on the “protectivness” of Obama that is shown by so many. Including voices from the Right denigrating the Clintons as “tearing the Dem Party apart”. I see it in so many of these comments. I think you should either relax or grow up. This is politics. As to Clinton vs Obama, I think many of you are very good at selective listening. You complain how Clinton slammed Obama about his legal work for Rezko, but you don’t remember he opened with a slam at her legal work at WalMart. You know what-Obama is ok with it. Why can’t you be? We have three very able candidates to choose from. This primary process is historic in nature because of Hillary and Obama. Add to that the spouse of one is a former President makes it even more so. Why we can’t applaud all of them instead of acting like Republicans is beyond me. We have never been so lucky as a Party. Let’s make the most of it instead of providing fodder for the Media.

  • Implosion of the Democratic party in ten seconds.

    All Clinton supporters should be taken out and shot to insure the purity of the Democratic party. (snark)

  • Good Lord…reading all these comments, one might think the three major Democratic candidates were competing for “least worst,” which is something I always thought the Republicans would be tearing their hair out over. Sheesh.

    The time for the Democrats to have made their fight for Michigan and Florida delegates was when the calendar was set; once the DNC made its ruling – however right or wrong anyone thought it was – the candidates had a choice to make, and everyone made one, with the full knowledge that come convention time, bothe states’ delegates were likely to be seated. Once those choices were made, with whatever calculations and considerations, that should have been that. I get that Hillary thinks she is speaking up for the people of Florida and Michigan, who feel like their votes mean nothing, but that’s a fight the people of Florida and Michigan needed to have with whoever picked the date, or with the DNC which made the decision to strip the delegates.

    But Hillary needed to stay out of this one.

    As for the rest of what is going on – yes, it’s getting pettier by the day, which does not bode well for the coming weeks. I realize I am here by choice, but increasingly it feels like I am stuck in a car on a 1,000 mile trip with a bunch of tired, whiny children whose only unused argument at this point is, “She’s looking at me!” but I expect we will get to that soon. And I’m not sure if those children are the commenters or the candidates, LOL.

    And, just because I am feeling as petty as everyone else, here’s something that drives me crazy: the plural form of “Clinton” is “Clintons, not “Clinton’s” – as in “The Clintons are both full of crap.” The possessive form of the plural is “Clintons'” not “Clinton’s” – as in “It is the Clintons’ tactics that are making this so hard.”

    Okay, with that out of my system, I think you all need to take a deep breath. Neither Bill nor Hillary Clinton is the devil incarnate. Think Progress posted a chart showing where things stood when Clinton left office and where things are now under Bush – I think even a cursory glance should be enough to convince you that the country was in much better shape before Bush took over. I wouldn’t want to be married to him, but I was much better off under his presidency than I am now.

    As much as the Clintons are not evil, Barack Obama is not the Messiah. What he says and what he does and what his record is – that’s all fair game, and nothing is “off the table” in terms of what can and cannot be scrutinized. Being against the war on the basis of one speech does not exempt him from scrutiny. Either deal with it, or get in bed and pull the covers over your head – we’ll wake you when it’s time to vote and you can decide then if you want to stay home or vote for Mitt Romney to carry out the Obama agenda.

    John Edwards – remember him? The other candidate in this race? He’s the one I support and I know he’s not perfect. I wish he had not voted for the AUMF – but I’m glad he regrets it, too. I’m glad he knows that NCLB was another bipartisan boondoggle that has accomplished in practice very little of what it purported to accomplish in theory – and I’m glad he can see that. He lives in a huge house, and has a lot of money – I think there are a lot of wealthy people whose money does not prevent them from advocating for those less fortunate. I don’t know if he can do all that he says he wants to do, but I like that he is willing to fight for it.

    Maybe if he were getting 1/10th the attention that Clinton and Obama were getting, I’d be on defense about Edwards more, but remember that long car trip I mentioned? While Hillary and Barack are bickering over who looked at whom first, and who slapped whom first, and arguing over the best way to get where we’re going, John is sitting up front, excited about the adventure and talking to us about the trip, what he’s seeing and what he wants to do when he gets there – and all I’m doing at this point is the best I can to tune out the brats in the back seat.

  • CaseyL – it was not the Clinton campaign that filed suit over the casino caucus sites; if you are going to get your nose out of joint, at least have the facts right.

  • You complain how Clinton slammed Obama about his legal work for Rezko, but you don’t remember he opened with a slam at her legal work at WalMart. You know what-Obama is ok with it. Why can’t you be?

    I don’t see anyone else in this thread mentioning Rezko. That sort of thing is expected, and I’m well aware of the fact that Obama did something similar with WalMart.

    This isn’t about protecting Obama. This is about opposing the dishonesty of the Clinton campaign. I’m speaking of the outright lies and resorting to racism, not something trivial like the WalMart/Rezko exchange. The sentiment is far more about opposing this sort of dishonesty and Obama is the beneficiary of it as represents our best chance to get an honest candidate.

    Is Obama ok with it? Better get your talking points straight. The Clinton campaign keeps dwelling on how Obama has “attacked” Clinton over these issues. Of course there is a huge difference between the smears of the Clinton campaign and Obama responding.

    Besides, it doesn’t even matter if Obama is ok with it. Again, this isn’t really about Obama. The Clintons are lying to the American people. I don’t want people who have this little regard for the truth in the White House, even if Obama should forgive them.

  • RonChusid:
    You seem very angered over the lying by the Clinton Campaign. While I don’t doubt that lying taking place, Myself and others might wonder exactly what lies by Hillary drives you to such anger. Which lie(s) have we failed to recognize as Hillary’s biggest sin? When you get through with that, tell us what lies Obama has spread.

    p,s, The Rezko mention was an example- not a salvation moment for Hillary!

  • Something that may interest: http://www.cjr.org/campaign_desk/seeing_the_light_in_south_caro.php?page=all

    A snip:

    I read the New York Times endorsement of Hillary Clinton late last night in my hotel room in Columbia, South Carolina. I’d just driven back from attending a Barack Obama event 120 miles south in the gym of North Charleston High School (“Home of the Cougars!”). It was everything everyone said it would be, more like a revival than a political event. Even though Obama was an hour and a half late, the largely African-American crowd’s enthusiasm did not wane. People stamped their feet. Two little girls got up on stage and led the crowd in a chant of Obama’s name. The local field coordinator, Kevin, a short white guy with glasses and a goatee, got so excited that even his warm-up speech sounded southern fried. “We’ve been told too many times to wait,” he screamed. “That our time had not yet come!” Another speaker, stalling for time, mistakenly referred to the senator as “Bomrock Obrama” and was nearly driven from the gym by the booing, restless audience. When the senator did arrive, he gave a pitch-perfect stump speech, surfing the enthusiasm of the pulsating gym. When he took the stage he said, “At some point in the evening, a light is going to shine down and you will have an epiphany and you’ll say, ‘I have to vote for Barack.’”

    If that epiphany never came, you couldn’t blame Obama. I’m not sure what more he could have done to make those people see the light.

    Still, when I got back to my hotel room and read the Times’s assessment of the Democratic field, I realized that the editorial board understood something the rest of us consumers of daily media have missed, but which was obvious to me after just one Obama-in-the-flesh event: what the Illinois senator excels at is packaging himself for the press (and, consequently, the public).

    I imagined, seeing him speak in person for the first time, that I would hear more of a discussion of policy than I’ve heard in the coverage of his campaign. I was sure that the sound bites that his stump speech produced about unity and change may pepper his talk, but could not possibly be the sum total of his message. But, basically, they were. There was very little sense that he was standing in North Charleston talking to a specific community of people. His transcendent talk was just that, transcendent. It’s not that this didn’t have a strong effect on the people who had waited to see him. It did. But there was something slightly gimmicky about his presentation. In my notebook, I wrote twice, “How will he make change?”

    The article continues, but in the interest of not violating fair use rules, I have not posted the rest. It is worth reading it all, as much for the comparison between Obama and Clinton, as for the media’s response.

  • Why isn’t Hilary running for the Republican nomination? She’d fit right in to that party.

  • really Brooks? how about Obama? since they are almost identical onpolicy, who exactly do you think is a Democrat and how does one qualify?

    do you think the Republicans would agree with you – to take a fiercly pro-choice, pro-civil union, pro-troop drawdown, pro-government involvement in the marketplace candidate as one of their own?

  • Anne,

    Very good CJR article. It is just a small part, though, of why I have been ABO – Anyone But Obama – for a long time.

  • Zeitgeist, I was speaking of her methods and personality. Read the comments here: the people who like her are praising her for being just as dirty as the Republicans. And, were she to run for the Republican nomination, I think she’d have no trouble being pro-life, anti-gay, pro-war, pro-business. Heck, read her comments on nuclear power: she’s against it when talking to environmental groups, and for it when talking to more reasonable groups.

    If she were to switch parties and start attacking Dems (more than she does now), the Republcians would rally behind her. Neither she nor they care for principles, just winning at any cost. It’s a match made in heaven.

  • Commenter’s here, who clearly support other candidates, are saying that if Clinton wins they wouldn’t both to vote. THAT makes YOU part of THE PROBLEM and NOT part of the solution.

    Weeeeee. That’s sweet!
    BAC is now adopting Bush’s language:

    You are either with us or against us.

    What’s next?
    You gonna us dissenters to Gitmo?

  • “Read the comments here: the people who like her are praising her for being just as dirty as the Republicans.”

    No, we aren’t. She doesn’t do anything anywhere as rat-effing as what the Republicans do.

    She does not play any dirtier than Obama, either. The difference is she scores with cheap shots, while Obama keeps stepping on his dick when he tries getting into the mud.

  • Horselover, I think you’re making the typical partisan zealot mistake of assuming that anyone against your horse is necessarily for whatever evil degenerate opposite opposes your horse.

    Here are some quotes from the comments, which I used to support my argument. Please feel free to explain how these do not paint her in a positive light as just as dirty as the Republicans.

    If she’s elected, I hope she uses every loop hole, every dirty trick in the book against the Republican obstruction in Congress.

    I support Clinton because she can play dirty.

    Hilary and Bill only care about power. Everything else, the proposed policies and dirty politics and outright lying, is just a means to an end. I’m not really a fan of Obama, by the way. I’d just rather not tread water for the next eight years until Jeb takes over to continue the Bush/Clinton/Bush/Clinton/Bush oligarchy.

  • Which lie(s) have we failed to recognize as Hillary’s biggest sin? When you get through with that, tell us what lies Obama has spread.

    The lies and smears include the mailers on Social Security

    http://liberalvaluesblog.com/?p=2722

    The mailers used on abortion rights:

    http://liberalvaluesblog.com/?p=2772

    Distortion of the meaning of voting present in the Illinois legislature

    http://liberalvaluesblog.com/?p=2585

    The distortion of the statements on Reagan and Republican ideas which many journalists as well as Factcheck have exposed as outright lies:

    http://liberalvaluesblog.com/?p=2752
    http://liberalvaluesblog.com/?p=2750

    The distortion of their comparative views on Iraq

    http://liberalvaluesblog.com/?p=2705

    Obama’s lies? The only lie here is that Clinton supporters repeatedly claim Obama lies too but I’ve never seen any of their examples hold up to fact checking.These include accusations that Obama lies about his health plan being universal. This is another common distortion used by Clinton as both plans will likely fall short of being 100% universal and some believe that Obama’s plan will wind up covering more people than Clinton’s

    http://robertreich.blogspot.com/2007/12/why-is-hrc-stooping-so-low.html

    Then there’s the number of times they’ve tried to further distort the issue with claims that it is Obama who has been trying to distract from the issues or bringing up race when each time we’ve been dealing with Clinton attacks first and then followed by responses from Obama.

    I have also had several other posts at Liberal Values on Clinton’s dishonesty, and there have even been some posts here where Steve has pointed out where Clinton was dishonest in an attack.

  • @59 says:
    I don’t see the Clinton’s’ center-right solutions as something that will benefit the country at all (or that much different from the current right-right solutions for that matter), so I would much rather continue being part of the problem until our serious national ills are finally addressed seriously in a way that benefits someone beyond a tiny subset of rich people and richer corporations. Your mileage obviously varies.

    Well, I hope you don’t hold your breath because if the Rethugs win again because all you Obama worshippers don’t vote Democratic…our national ills will never be addressed and that “tiny subset of rich people and richer corporations” will grind their jack boots even deeper into your impressively strong backbones.

  • Brooks,

    Those are not my comments you are asking me defend, but let me say somethings.

    I don’t support HRC “because she can play dirty.” All politicians eventually discover they need to cut some corners to win. The Clintons are no worse than typical, and definitely no dirtier than Obama. Obama, however, does not think strategically, so a lot of times he does stuff that backfires. I don’t like HRC needing to take a few cheap shots, but I do like that she is effective at it, and generally comes out ahead.

    Using loopholes is not playing dirty. There has a lot of stuff passed in Congress during the LBJ administration, and I am sure that LBJ’s knowledge of the mechanics of how things get done had a lot to do with that.

  • Nice work RonChusid.

    Have you also discovered the dirty little secret about our reality based community?

    Sad?
    Yeah.
    Eye opening?
    Definitely.

  • do you think the Republicans would agree with you – to take a fiercly pro-choice, pro-civil union, pro-troop drawdown, pro-government involvement in the marketplace candidate as one of their own?

    Apparently some in the Bush White House do see Clinton as the best candidate to carry on the Bush legacy:

    http://liberalvaluesblog.com/?p=2742

    The Clintons are about power, not any particular set of policy positions. She’s only pro-troop drawdown because it is the politically expedient view. I don’t believe she’d get us out of Iraq any quicker than John McCain.

    Pro-civil union? The Clinton’s have already demonstrated that isn’t true. During the 2004 campaign Bill advised Kerry to support the anti-gay marriage amendments on the ballots in several states (some of which also could prevent civil unions). Bill argued that this would help Kerry carry those states. Kerry didn’t go along with this, but I sure bet Hillary would.

    I don’t believe there is any position on which Hillary Clinton could be counted to support principles if this conflicted with what was politically expedient. I don’t think she would be any better than another Republican and I see no reason to vote for her if she wins the nomination. It would just be a third term for Bush/Rove politics.

  • Horselover, I wasn’t asking you to defend anything. You volunteered, after I said that people were praising her for being dirty:

    No, we aren’t.

    What part of “we” did you not understand when you pressed “Submit Comment”? Does the meaning of “we” change based on today’s definition of “is”? Can “we” parse “dirty” to mean “clean”?

    To the extent that Hilary is less dirty than the Republicans, it is because she hasn’t come up with ideas as good as theirs. I personally agree with some of her policies, and I think she would be a fair-to-good President. But you are naive in the extreme if you don’t think she embodies everything that is dirty and corrupt in American politics.

    And how old will Chelsea be in 2024, when Jeb is done with his turn playing President?

  • ROTFLMLiberalAO,

    It’s far from the first time I’ve found evidence that the left is not 100% reality based.

    At least we pretty much all agree that Saddam didn’t threaten us with WMD and wasn’t responsible for 9/11. Plus we believe in evolution and accept the scientific consensus on climate change. That puts us well ahead of the right wing!

  • Thank you Ron Chusid for responding to my request. As I began to read the links you provided I noticed that all were from the same site. I went to that site and you don’t have to guess what I discovered. If you will allow me I would like to invite others on this thread to visit your site. Having read what you have published there I
    believe you have an agenda that is obvious and not much else is needed to be said. You are much like those from the Andrew Sullivan Fraternity of psuedointellectuals who want to impress us with your slime. It’s really nice to know who’s out there .

    p.s. Does the fact that you are a physician have anything to do with your Hillary Hate?

  • Brooks at 83:

    “And how old will Chelsea be in 2024, when Jeb is done with his turn playing President?”

    Suggesting that people are gullible sheeple is not the optimum way to win them over.

  • The sad reality of politics is that in ten years when Obama has “baggage” from making difficult decisions, many people will describe him as dishonest.

    We Democrats hold our public officials to higher standards than we expect of ourselves.

    Oh really? Do you give make an agreement to do something with a “strategic” plan about how you can get the upper hand on other parties to the agreement by opting out when it becomes clear that such opting out is to your advantage?. If you do, more power to you – literally – I guess. I infer from some comments that this maneuver by the Clinton campaign somehow demonstrates superior strategic planning. To me, it simply looks like a willingness to screw people with whom you have an agreement – Howard Dean and the DNC for example – to get ahead. Skill? Not in my opinion. Brazen, in-your-face, hearty F You? That’s my take.

    We don’t know enough about Obama to hate him. That will change with time.

    Delightfully effing cynical. I do not hate the Clintons. I would like to be able to trust them. Stuff like this makes it very difficult for this Pollyanna.

    It’s politics, baby … get used to it!

    Let’s see, where do I remember hearing that before? Oh yeah. During the Florida recount debacle. Sore Loserman. The Brooks Brothers Riot. The Bush Team was simply better prepared to play dirty than Gore was. The Bush Team had a better strategy than Gore. By whatever means necesssary. In the light of “It’s politics, baby,” I think Bush had superior skills.. Oh, but what a horrible subversion of democracy and outcome. But, apparently I have no cause for complaint against Bush and his boys. They were just a step ahead of everyone. Perhaps because everyone was not quite so prepared to cheat and screw the living daylights out of the people and the process.

    No, we aren’t. She doesn’t do anything anywhere as rat-effing as what the Republicans do.

    Comfort yourself with that. I suspect the slope of dirty politics is a slippery one, and Hillary and Bill have skis for every occassion. For some folks, this is a plus. For me, it inspires a gag reflex when I consider voting for Hillary.** Dead horse time: I think this move reveals dishonesty and untrustworthiness on Hillary’s part, not political skill.

    ** Which I still plan to do, if necessary, because of my concerns about the SCOTUS, among other things.

  • Obama should decline to compete for Florida. When asked why, here’s all he needs to say…

    “Two wrongs don’t make a right.”

  • Yikes, Horselover. So in #76 you assert that “we” aren’t praising her for being dirty, then in #80 you say that you didn’t mean “we” when you said “we”, and now you ignore me calling you on your word-twisting so you can put words in *my* mouth and make assumptions about my motives?

    For the record, I do not think people are either gullible or sheep, and I think it’s the height of dishonesty to go after me with that accusation rather than addressing my actual points. The Bushes and Clintons have controlled this country for 20 years. It is almost certain to be 28, with Hilary. It is likely to extend to 36, with Jeb. Is it so unreasonable to assume that Chelsea is being groomed to make that 44 years of Bush/Clinton rule? Is it not obvious that the Bush/Clinton political machines only get stronger between now and then?

    You, sir, are the very model of a Hilary supporter, with your dodging and weaving and loose interest in accuracy. I hope it works out for you. Heck, I hope it works out for all of us, because she is almost certain to win in November. Let’s hope, for the sake of the country, that her corruption and dishonesty don’t lead to anything catastrophic.

  • Brooks,

    “The Bushes and Clintons have controlled this country for 20 years.”

    I do not buy this (implied) interpretation – that the Bushes and Clintons are somehow working together, scratching each others’ backs. Like handing off the baton in some relay race.

    “Is it so unreasonable to assume that Chelsea is being groomed to make that 44 years of Bush/Clinton rule?”

    Yes. The assertion discredits your logic and objectivity, JMHO, unless you can present some actual evidence for this.

  • she’d have no trouble being pro-life

    Wow Brooks, if you’d had any credibility to begin with, that sure blows it (and I’m disappointed Ron C seems to have bought this line of all things).

    Do you know jack about HRC other than what Richard Mellon Scaife tells you? Do you think she just showed up on the scene yesterday?

    Clue: Emily’s List has never supported a pro-life candidate in their history. HRC has been on record for decades on the choice issues – indeed, part of the Right Wing’s issue with her is (per a reference I saw just yesterday) that they consider her “radical” on the abortion issue.

    Yes, she (like Bill and many others) have strongly encouraged the “safe, legal – and rare” formulation, but there is no indication she could ever be “pro-life.”

    But hey, only the Clinton camp would resort to dirty campaign tricks like just makin’ shit up. Not the Obama side. oh no.

  • aReader,

    Everyone is on the FL ballot. No way to be taken off. No one is campaigning there.

    People will notice the results, whatever they are, can’t be helped. Everyone will spin them, at least through surrogates and/or supporters.

  • Brooks,

    Since you are quoting me, let me say that ALL POLITICS IS DIRTY, not just one candidate. Hillary Clinton understands politics and its dirtiness. She knows how to play. I trust her to fight hard and be creative in order to promote the progressive policies I want enacted. Is she perfect? No. Is Obama perfect? No. One thing I’ll say for her, no one will accuse her of being passive-aggressive.

    But as always, I will vote for any Dem over any Repub.

  • Zeitgeist: Yes, she (like Bill and many others) have strongly encouraged the “safe, legal – and rare” formulation, but there is no indication she could ever be “pro-life.”

    No indication other than the one I cited, that she has both supported and opposed nuclear power depending on the audience. She cares about votes, not positions. So far, being pro-choice has been the way to succeed in Democratic politics. I see that as the reason she’s been “on the record” with some consistency. If (God forbid) being pro-life made one more likely to get elected, I believe she would switch so quickly that windows would shatter from the sonic boom.

    Oh, and once again: I am not an Obama supporter. You can be as dismissive of me as you like, but please use my unusual height, libertarian leanings, dark hair, or private school upbringing as the putative reason to disrespect my point of view. Or you could just be honest and say “you’re full of crap, because Hilary is great and anyone who doesn’t agree is ipso facto full of crap.” But there’s no sense trotting out the sarcastic Obama references, because your assumptions about my politics are wrong.

    Horselover: unless you can present some actual evidence for this.
    Nevermind the humor of you talking about “objectivity”, read Wikipedia and tell me that she’s not on the political track. Come on, we’re talking 16 years out, so nothing is certain, but this is not the bio of someone who doesn’t want to be involved in (and successful at) politics. To be clear, there’s no crime there; I have nothing against her and she has every right to pursue the Presidency when it’s her turn. But the Clinton political machine is clearly planning ahead, as they should, and while you may question my “objectivity” (what, it’s wrong to have opinions now? Are you “objective”?), I certainly question your understanding of politics based on this incredibly naive point.

  • I think the problem is that the term “dirty” connotes “cheater,” and I can’t speak for anyone else, but I don’t want someone to win that way.

    Fighting “hard” I get – I do want someone to fight hard, but I want the hardness and determination applied to the issues, not necessarily to the other candidates; increasingly, I get the feeling that it is winning for the sake of winning that is driving Clinton, and if she gets the nomination, she will do the same against her GOP opponent, but I wish I had as much confidence that that fighting spirit will carry over to actual governing.

    As for Obama, when I listen to his speeches and I assess his demeanor, I get the distinct feeling that he sees this race as being the fulfillment of his destiny – and because he feels he is supposed to win, he treats whatever comes his way as an affront; he is nearly indignant that other candidates would have the temerity to dispel the glory that is Barack Obama. When he says to the gathered crowd, “At some point in the evening, a light is going to shine down and you will have an epiphany and you’ll say, ‘I have to vote for Barack,” it’s hard not to get that feeling that he sees himself as destined – by God – to be president.

    In short, with Clinton and Obama, I find myself muttering, “who the hell do you think you are?’ more frequently than I would like to be.

  • “The game may be fixed, but if you don’t play you can’t win.” – R. Heinlein

  • Bingo, Anne. I think the weakness of the Republican field has led to unbridled egotism and a messianic sense of entitlement on the Democratic side. Maybe we need a credible threat from the right to make us focus on policy rather than personality.

  • To Anne; I kind of felt the way you do until yesterday when I happen to get a replay of a town hall meeting Hillary had with some SC residents. I must say that I don’t think I’ve ever been as impressed with a politician in this race that has as much knowledge, command and vision of the issues as Hillary. I had heard that she is completely different in the presence of voters from all that we’ve seen in the debates. I liked her there as well, but in front of the voters it is obvious why she will get my vote. She has no equal in this race. The politics being played out at present are undesirable but we know that this is nothing compared to when the general election gets here.

  • I think the weakness of the Republican field has led to unbridled egotism and a messianic sense of entitlement on the Democratic side. Maybe we need a credible threat from the right to make us focus on policy rather than personality.

    I disagree in two respects, or more accurately with each of the two sentences. Let me work backwards, because the latter disagreement is easier.

    I don’t think a threat from the right will change the focus to policy simply because the differences in actual forward-looking policy between Clinton, Obama and Edwards is small (arguably Edwards is the most distinguishable of the three). The difference is much smaller between them than between any of them and the Republicans. So a threat from the right if anything may focus them on how similar their own policies are — and how distinct they are from those on the right. While I don’t think it would make a huge change, it may actually be that a credible threat from the left would do more to force them to talk policy, because small distinctions would matter more in that scenario.

    I also disagree with the idea that the weakness of the opposing field has lead to a sense of entitlement. After 2000 and 2004, I can’t imagine anyone credible believes this will be a cakewalk. But to the extent there is a sense of entitlement, I think it has more to do with BushCo than the Repub candidates — I would phrase it as “if the voting public still wants a Republican after the last 7 years, I’m not really sure what more we could do – or if that is a country we’d want to be President of in the first place.”

  • Zeitgeist, I think you misinterpreted Anne’s point that I was agreeing with. It is the candidates, not the Democratic voters, who seem to feel entitled.

    I do agree that more of a threat from the left might encourage more of a focus on policy, but I also think a Republican candidate who stood out from the crowd and didn’t so obviously represent everything that is wrong with the right would have a similar effect.

  • Now Swan, you really aren’t in any position to be making empty accusations about “being a troll” (especially since I’ve been able to post all of my comments from day one under the same name).

    So now I’m an Obama troll? Why would that be? Is it because I won’t bow down to your delusional greatness? Because you’ve anointed yourself as Madame Shillary’s personal pit bull? If you don’t want to become everybody’s favorite punt dog, then you shouldn’t be yammering like a poodle with a multiple personality disorder.

    Let’s bring this back to the core concept of the thread, though. Hillary claims to play by the rules, but leaves her name on the ballot in Michigan after everyone else pulled theirs off. Hillary claims to play by the rules about Florida, bad-mouths the Obama people for buying national air-time that also plays into Florida—but simultaneously had national ads running for her campaign which LIKEWISE were broadcast into Florida.

    Oh—and the Palm Beach Post is reporting that she’s got at least 2 fund-raisers scheduled in Miami Beach on the 27th. That’s tomorrow, by the way. Add to that all of the Florida activities listed on Hillary’s own website, thus:

    http://www.hillaryclinton.com/actioncenter/event/?mt=0&d=100&z=33138&s=z&EventSearchAndResults%3A_ctl0.x=26&EventSearchAndResults%3A_ctl0.y=10

    Oops—I guess she didn’t think that “the Obama troll” would go tooling through her official campaign website—now did she?

    HillarySpeak—say this, do that.

    Truth good—HillarySpeak better.

    And “some people” think this is a good thing….

  • fillphil,

    You really are low–smearing the messenger because you don’t like the facts.

    “I noticed that all were from the same site.”

    Is this you way of trying to deny that multiple sources all say the same thing? The links are to my blog posts which quote from different sources which all demonstrate numerous times that the Clinton campaign has lied.

    “I believe you have an agenda that is obvious and not much else is needed to be said.”

    My “agenda” is to clean up government. That means putting an end to the dishonest type of campaign the Clintons are waging.

    Besides, facts are facts. Whether or not I have an “agenda” does not alter the validity of the facts. Numerous sources show that Obama said one thing and the Clinton campaign attacked him by saying he had said something else.

    If anyone has an agenda it is clearly you as you resort to smears of your own to defend the Clintons use of a smear campaign.

  • “Much that once was is lost, for none now live who remember it.”

    I am a resident of Tampa Florida and am ashamed of what may very well be the most incompetent state Democratic Party in the country: the Florida Democratic Party. The present early state primary system lessens the influence of wealth, media conglomerates, and large state political machines. In small states grassroots support has a much greater impact on elections than in large states.

    To be competitive in large state-wide contests requires a great deal of money. The discourse is mostly that of 30 second ads, because it is impossible to speak with as large a percentage of the population directly in the way you can in small states. Bringing large states up in the primary calendar would mean that presidential candidates would be even more dependent on large contributors than they are now. The likelihood of what Huckabee did in Iowa would be even less likely. As much as I disagree with Huckabee’s positions, I am glad that outsiders can still upset big party boss favorites.

    In early states local papers and media personalities can have as much if not more influence than the Wall Street Journal, New York Times, or major tv network programs. It must be really frustrating for the big media players, who are accustomed to greater influence in the national political scene, to have to endure playing a smaller role in the presidential primaries. I’m not surprised that so few of these media conglomerates are educating the public about the importance of early small state primary schedule.

    How unfortunate for large state political machines, used to commanding so much national attention normally, to watch small states have a chance at influencing who the next president is. How much time and attention would small state issues get, if the presidential candidates had all state primaries even closer together? It is a frightening thing for me to see a United States Senator actually sue the national party for having the integrity and wisdom to preserve the small state preference. That a major candidate act to endanger this system should make plain where their priorities are and what kind of president they would be. As a resident of a large state, where the impact of every voter is proportionally less than in small states, I am overjoyed that the DNC is is preserving the influence of citizens over these other interests.

    The horrible thing is that there so few understand the importance of the early small state primary system. I really had hoped the the Republican Party elders would have shown greater fortitude against this foolishness. I am amazed that the Florida Democratic Party machine is so stupid as to allow itself to aide and abet in the disenfranchisement of the voters of so important a state. That more are not outraged by what Florida Democratic Party did is at the heart of what is wrong with American politics.

  • Hopefully it will not come to this, but if it does, and the Clinton camps pulls this, I know that I and a lot of others will stay home in November. Do they have no shame?

  • Senator Clinton’s campaign has chosen to push to change the rules while the Democratic nominating process is already underway.

    Her campaign is advocating for the seating of Michigan and Florida delegates after the Democratic National Committee stripped both states of their delegates in response to each state’s decision to move up their primary date.

    This is not fair!

    Sign the petition to stop her initiative, which will only serve to tear the party apart.

    http://www.thepetitionsite.com/1/Give-Us-Fairness

  • I just hope the democrat delegates realize that if we’re looking for an electable democrat, Clinton won’t do. Have so many democrats ever vowed not to vote for one of their own? And have so many Republicans ever suggested they might vote for a democrat (Obama)? Seriously, even my momma’s for Obama and she’s never left the Republican fold before.

  • The lesson from all of this seems attempts to manipulate the process are not going to end well. Either way it’s unfair. It was undemocratic to penalize FL and MI for moving their primaries but it would be almost criminal to castigate Obama for a change that shouldn’t have been authorized and a war against the voters in both states that shouldn’t have been waged!

  • “She doesn’t need the support of the Florida or Michigan delegates to win the primary at all.”

    This makes me laugh now. Cause to even have a remote chance she needs both now. Lieary is in trouble.

    Good call Swan.

  • Perhaps we should update on old proverb to read “There is honor neither among thieves nor Clintons.”

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