Clinton pushes Obama into a catch-22

After a couple of weeks of dubious and misleading criticisms directed his way, Barack Obama’s campaign has decided to respond in kind, unveiling an aggressive new ad. It argues that Hillary Clinton is “making false attacks on Barack Obama,” and she “will say anything to get elected.”

“The Washington Post says Clinton isn’t telling the truth. Obama ‘did not say that he liked the ideas of Republicans.’ In fact, Obama’s led the fight to raise the minimum wage, close corporate tax loopholes and cut taxes for the middle class.

“But it was Hillary Clinton, in an interview with Tom Brokaw, who quote ‘paid tribute’ to Ronald Reagan’s economic and foreign policy. She championed NAFTA — even though it has cost South Carolina thousands of jobs. And worst of all, it was Hillary Clinton who voted for George Bush’s war in Iraq.

“Hillary Clinton. She’ll say anything, and change nothing. It’s time to turn the page.”

As far as I can tell, there are no obvious factual errors in Obama’s ad, and in general, I think the “say anything” line is a pretty good one. The Clinton campaign has been using a “kitchen sink” strategy since the Iowa caucuses, and a blanket “she’ll say anything to win” meme takes a dismissive attitude towards all the attacks.

The Clinton campaign has issued talking points to surrogates about the commercial, though, and it highlights Obama’s catch-22.

The headline reads, “Sen. Obama’s Personal Attack Ad.”

* After months of telling Americans he would run a positive campaign, Senator Obama has launched the most negative, personal attack of this cycle.

* In a new ad airing in South Carolina, Senator Obama outrageously asserts that Senator Clinton will “say anything to get elected.”

* This from a candidate and a campaign who have promised voters a politics of hope and unity, and repeatedly denounced the “slash and burn politics of the past.”

–In August, Senator Obama told the Associated Press that “I’ve been respectful of all the candidates. I would challenge anyone to find a statement I’ve made that has been personal.”

–Earlier this year, Senator Obama’s Chief Strategist David Axelrod told Real Clear Politics, “Do we have a strategy to tear people down? We don’t.”

–And just two weeks ago, Senator Obama told Newsweek that he would not “knee cap” his opponents.

The Clinton campaign isn’t disputing any of Obama’s charges; they’re arguing that Obama isn’t supposed to be making any charges at all. The Clinton campaign also isn’t taking a holier-than-thou attitude — they’ve clearly been throwing plenty of mud — but is instead arguing that Obama is using the same take-no-prisoners attitude Clinton embraced weeks ago. (That’s not hypocrisy, Team Clinton would likely say, because she never promised anyone “hope and unity.”)

And therein lies the problem. Obama said he wanted to stay positive; Clinton said she wanted to win. When Clinton went on the attack, including taking a few cheap shots, it created a conundrum — if Obama returned fire, he’d be guilty of the same kind of politics he finds distasteful in Clinton. If he didn’t return fire, Clinton gets away with dishonest attacks and Obama gets hit with stories like this one, which question whether he’s ready for the rough-and-tumble, no-holds-barred national stage.

We saw at the debate earlier this week that Obama is capable of mixing it up and trading shots with Clinton, but it automatically leaves him in a jam — he’s playing by Clinton’s rules.

As I noted the other day, Clinton doesn’t mind getting into a good ol’ fashioned brawl; she’s quick, smart, and quite adept in these scuffles. The problem for Obama is getting dragged into the mud when he wants to aim higher.

If he returns fire, it’s politics as usual, with politicians bickering and getting personal. If he doesn’t return fire, and aims for a “new kind of politics,” the attacks from Clinton start to stick, and questions about general election “toughness” emerge.

Clinton knows all of this, of course, and will use it as much as possible.

The difference is still that Obama remains TRUTHFUL. Obama is not throwing mud. He is repsonding. Can a candidate with a backbone also be positive? I woudl think so. I think it is sad when we jump on a truthful but certainly not positive ad and say, “Oh, look, Obama’s doing it too.” And then all the pundits congratulate themselves for believing the whole time that politics is a dirty game.

The two approaches are not in the same league. Obama is now saying something that most people in the punditocracy have been saying for weeks, but somehow now he is negative? Please. Clinton has been stating LIES – that have been called that by many people already. It’s not the same ballagame if Obama is now viewed as the same.

  • We don’t need more Clinton-led, REpubilican-light, false accusations. She is a dirty player, and if the other guy is going to hit below the belt and chop block, and you are going to ‘play clean’, you get killed. The promise by Obama was in many ways, a challenge and a hope, and a call for unity among Dems (something we badly need). But Shill-ary can’t play the game that way, so Obama has no choice.

  • I agree with the top two posters…

    It may be impossible to escape, but isn’t this just laying down and accepting the false dichotomies set up by the broken media culture? That can’t differentiate “forcefully responding with the truth” from “attacks.”?

  • It’s not an issue unless you are silly enough to equate responding to Clinton’s attacks with the lying that she did to begin with – all under the umbrella of “dirty politics”. It’s not the same.

    I understand the press being that silly, but this blog should know better.

  • Very astute on Clinton’s part. Seems like her camp knew it was only a matter of time before Obama had to go this route and her folks were ready.

  • I think the “catch-22” the Clintons are pushing will for the most part fall upon deaf ears. Most (not including die-hard Obama supporters or die-hard Clinton haters) will look at it and say, “yes Obama might have said he would stay above the fray, but the Clintons goaded him into this ‘attack’ so I am not going to hold this against him.” IMHO.

  • That is the bind “high road” candidates always have — Edwards had the exact same problem on 2004, and in 2008 didn’t both with the “I’m the nicest guy in the race” angle.

    As Slate noted, however, Obama is not exactly finessing this well:

    new e-mail sent out by the Obama camp claiming that Hillary is going “all out” in South Carolina. “The truth is Hillary Clinton’s campaign is pulling out all the stops to win in South Carolina,” writes Obama spokesman Bill Burton. “And it includes saying and doing just about anything to win.” The e-mail goes on to detail Clinton’s various surrogates, radio ads, and upcoming appearances in the state.

    Note that this was done while Clinton was spending most of the week out of state, largely conceding it and moving on to Feb. 5 states.

    what Clinton spokesman Jay Carson did when I mentioned the e-mail to him—is laugh. “Yesterday, they said we’re not campaigning here,” he said. “Now they say we’re going all out. They’re talking out of both sides of their mouth.”

    Indeed. For all the talk about Clinton being inconsistent and shifting, here we have Obama clearly caught saying mutually exclusive things. The horrors. He’s a politician, just like the rest.

    And that is where Clinton has done a good job of taking him off his game. I and others here have been offended by the halo-effect he seems to be given by some of his supporters, but in reality that is exactly what he was selling: that he was different, not “political,” that he was shiny and new, not covered with the dirt that comes with years in the trenches. All Clinton has to do to wholly undermine a key pillar of his candidacy is draw him into politics, the stuff every contested campaign is made of, and it wont take long at all for tarnish to form on the halo.

    He’ll still be a good speaker, but that shaft of light that bathed him from the heavens that made him nearly untouchable for a brief while will disappear. And when that happens, what he is selling loses much of its attraction.

    Obamaists will likely lament that it was done to him by someone from his own party, but a) as the quote above shows, he’s doing and has done some things to her, too; b) everyone is entitled to campaign to win – he surely didn’t expect she’d roll over and play dead; and c) it was going to happen in the fall anyway and a lot worse – best to know now if people still are still buying when the goods have some scratches and dents.

  • The truly sad thing about all of this is how the media has really abandoned their duty as fact-checkers for all the people who really don’t have time to do it themselves. Instead, they report horrible stories only about what is happening or what has been said and spend no time saying whether it is objectively true or not. For a case in point, look at the WaPo’s piece on the Obama muslim smear.

    Somehow the right has been able to convince the mainstream media that trying to elucidate issues with objective truth is showing the liberal bias of the reality-based community. As Colbert so eloquently said, “It’s a well-known fact that reality has a liberal bias.”

    And our reward for an inattentive electorate and an MSM greenlighting lies masquerading as stories – politicians like Bush and Cheney, and now maybe even Clinton.

  • Obama speaks truthfully and with INTEGRITY. Something no Clinton knows about.

    Is this lack of integrity what is needed in our hour of crisis for appropriate leadership

    Is HC not able to campaign without her charismatic, sexually immoral husband?

  • This has been the Democrats Catch-22 since 1992. We take the high road, and are naive. We join the game and we’re hypocrites. Point out Republicans do the same, and the DC elite go, pshaw! They’re Republicans! That’s what they do! We expect more from your side!

    Why can’t being an ass hole be part of my charm, too?

  • I think everyone knows that when someone starts lying about you, the “stay positive” deal is off. No one expects you to just lay there and let a bunch of jerks slime you.

    The Clintons are getting desperate if this is the best they’ve got.

  • “She’ll say anything”

    That strikes me as more over-the-top than literally true.

    She has not, for example, said her supporters would sit out the general election if she doesn’t get the nomination. It took Barack Obama to go there.

    HRC said she would work to support the eventual nominee. I have seen no indication Barack Obama would do that.

  • @13 Just a clarification, I am pretty sure Obama meant that he wasn’t sure if Independents and Republicans that back him currently would eventually back HRC. It was a continuation of a response to the fact that she has high negatives among I’s and R’s where Obama doesn’t.

  • * In a new ad airing in South Carolina, Senator Obama outrageously asserts that Senator Clinton will “say anything to get elected.”

    Fair enough! I look forward to hearing what proper, respectful wording Obama should henceforth use to explain how Hilary lies like a rug.

  • The difference is still that Obama remains TRUTHFUL.

    Really?! Read this – Obama said oops on 6 state Senate votes – and try to figure out if he is telling the truth:

    “I was not aware that I had voted no,”
    “I was trying to vote yes on this, and I was recorded as a no,”
    “I pressed the wrong button on that,”
    “I pressed the wrong button by accident,”

    Obama is a sitting-duck on his “present” votes…the GOP is already “Previewing potential GOP attacks” to use against him.

  • There’s no Catch-22 here. Obama’s message has been to bring change to politics. This doesn’t prevent him from responding to and exposing those we need a change from.

    If Hillary Clinton is going to wage a campaign based upon smears and lies she has no business complaining when Obama responds.

  • It seems like somebody could come up with a better response to this, especially in a polished TV ad.

    Some sort of earnest response that you’re trying to raise the bar and you are ready to discuss issues with anybody who is willing. But you’re also not going to let personal attacks go unanswered, especially when they’re full of misleading comments or outright lies. Point out how if you throw enough mud in public it tends to stick so you can’t just ignore it forever. Maybe it’s too complicate to put into a sound bite but I think it could work if done right. And you’d be able to respond while staying on the high road…

  • “sexually immoral husband?”

    This is the 21st century calling ml johnston…get over it already.

  • Doug @ 13

    Except that there are recent matchup polls that show HRC doing better than BO, and doing well with independents.

  • Cheryl –

    Seems like her camp knew it was only a matter of time before Obama had to go this route and her folks were ready.

    OF COURSE they knew that eventually Obama would have to go this route – it’s fracking POLITICS! Had Clinton’s team kept a “hands-off” approach, this same tactic would get used by whoever the Republican nominee is in the fall. If Obama is running as the guy bringing “new politics” to DC and can get forced into a position where he has to make use of “old politics” to try to win, then his opponent wins.

    Frankly, it’s better that this get aired before the primary. If all Obama has going for him is a Ross Perot-like halo of “a different kind of politician” then he is screwed in the general anyway. Once he proves that there is more to his campaign than just “not politics as usual” he’ll be a stronger candidate. You really think McCain’s people would hang back and lob softballs at him? Or Romney’s? Or Huck’s? If he can’t work his way through this Gordian Knot he’s tied himself into with the primary nomination he’d be toast in November anyway.

  • @16 I personally have no idea how a vote in the IL Senate is cast, so I can’t really comment on whether or not this is plausible. It doesn’t sound good, but I am not sure how it is untruthful. If he thought it would be politically advantageous to vote a certain way, why wouldn’t he actually vote that way instead of taking it back later? I don’t really see how he benefits because he can’t really have it both ways, so I really see no benefit in him intentionally making the mistake or lying about it. If anything, the most obvious answer is that he is clumsy – which isn’t a terribly endearing trait for a president – but also not a dealbreaker for me personally.

  • Friends:

    Unfortunately, the Rovian tactics of the Clintons ARE fooling voters who are not paying enough attention. If you’re commenting on forums such as this one, you’re one of the few who are. I read these forums fairly often–and I’ve seen that INFORMED VOTERS KNOW WHAT IS GOING ON. The only way to stop the Billary sleaze machine is to SPREAD THE WORD. Go to the Obama website and print out the Fact Check documents. Print out John Kerry’s statement about the Clinton swiftboat tactics. Print out articles such as this:

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/08/14/AR2007081401722.html

    Then make copies and post, post, post! Post them at work. Stick them inside papers and mags at the newsstand. Give them to people on the street. Leave them on the seat of the bus/subway.

    Even in states like New York, where Hillary has a definite lead, it’s not winner-take-all. Your vote to Obama counts because delegates are awarded proportionally. And your actions do make a difference. People, we have 2 weeks. GO!

  • You know there was nothing truthful or integral about saying Hillary’s JFK/MLK/LBJ comments were racist and insulting to King. Yet that is exactly what Obama’s surrogates did.

    There’s a lot of double standards being thrown around here. And frankly I’m not very impressed by the arguments.

    I’ve heard it argued here that what Hillary said about JFK/MLK/LBJ may have been the truth but it was unpolitical/unwise. Why the f**k doesn’t that same standard apply to Obama’s comments about Reagan and the Republican’ts sixteen years of ‘ideas’? Wasn’t that unpolitical and unwise?

    Not to mention being a vicious shot at Bill Clinton and his whole administration.

    This ad is not Obama’s first shot at the Clintons.

    Why the hell do you keep writing these articles as if this is a one sided occurence?

  • @20 I don’t know if polls are of much value at this point in time (not that I am denying it, but there are also polls that show Obama with a lead). I guess I just don’t know how Clinton beats McCain head-to-head. Experience? National Security? It seems to me that McCain trumps her on all her best lines in the primary.

  • One thing I’m left wondering is how Hillary’s supporters can say that he’s not tough enough to fight Republicans, while also gnashing their teeth every time he throws a quick jab. Again, I’m in the crowd that says that truth isn’t mud. Slinging mud would be if Obama surrogates attacked Hillary for being a calculating bitch and mentioning the whole Monica thing, or if Hillary surrogates brought up his drug use and implying that these were things he was doing “in the neighborhood,” almost as if he was a crackhead or something.

    But being truthful is not mudslinging and there is nothing wrong with defending yourself by throwing a quick jab at your opponents. Again, that is what Hillary’s supporters are saying he should do (but won’t), while also complaining when he does. Hell, the only reason I’ve seen so far for while they support her is because she’s a fighter, but complain when Barack shows any kind of fight at all.

  • Let’s remember that Hillary has a long record of failure, negligence, corruption and dishonesty. Failure – healthcare Negligence – failure to read the intelligence reports before endorsing Bush’s war Corruption – nepotism in Arkansas, Norman Hsu, Whitewater Dishonesty – protecting the First Pervert as he abused women, actively spreading falsehoods about Obama’s comments on Reagan. And that’s just the start.

  • A personal attack would be if, after Clinton mentioned contributions from Rezko, Obama had replied, “Norman Who?” If Clinton then replied that Norman Hsu also gave to Obama, he could mention the book “How to Rig and Election”, by Ian Spiegelman, a former Republican hitman, and in particular the part that talks about spreading smaller donations to diffuse suspicion. Now that would be personal.

  • “It seems to me that McCain trumps her on all her best lines in the primary.”

    Please explain how McCain beats Clinton on the economy? Thanks.

    Also, I assume you believe that Clinton’s (and Obama’s and Edwards’) get most all of our troops out of Iraq within early part of first term loses to McCain’s ‘stay in Iraq for 100 years’ (taken together with his man-hugging of the current president?

  • Just a general comment that hasn’t been stated yet, but there is a difference between having someone in your campaign do something dirty and buying advertisements saying something dirty and having your top surrogate (spouse) say something dirty. The dirtiness has to originate from higher in the campaign (if not from the candidate themselves). Sure, Obama’s camp no-names have done some bad stuff, but BILL has done some bad stuff and Clinton has run deceitful ads.

  • Lance @24: Please provide the quote or link to what Obama said re: Hillary’s JFK/MLK/LBJ comments. If you think he claimed she was racist, I believe you picked that up from an innaccurate source.

  • @29 Has she really excelled at the economy in the primary? Or has it been one of her best lines? Edwards had the first plan, and Obama had the best (according to Ruth Marcus). Not saying she doesn’t beat McCain on this right now, but I also didn’t say that in my original statement.

    Beyond that, repubs always have an advantage on the economy because people like to hear “tax cut” even if it’s actually just for the rich or even counterproductive.

  • Hillary, Barack, please put down the jello and end this silly food fight. If you want us to vote for you, please take an aggressive stance on FISA and telecom immunity — you know, things we give a sh*t about — and PROVE who is the real leader to your constituents. Give us something to vote for not against, like someone who respects the Constitution and is willing to fight for it. As sitting US Senators, you have the power to make more than stump speeches and attack ads, you can still make things actually HAPPEN.

  • “Beyond that, repubs always have an advantage on the economy because people like to hear “tax cut” even if it’s actually just for the rich or even counterproductive.”

    Guess you were not born yet in 1992. You obviously do not know what you are talking about and have no handle of history.

  • I have to say this… the Hillary haters seem to have swallowed quite a lot of the BS flung at the Clintons in the 90s that just doesn’t wash with the facts. The Clintons were the most investigated Administration in living memory, and you know how many scalps the haters got? One — for lying about how much he had been blackmailed by his mistress. That’s less than Carter, for Christ sakes. How many has Bush lost due to investigations and legal troubles? Now, imagine if we ever had an investigation. I know it’s a primary, but lets not fool ourselves into believing the rightwing charicature of the Clintons. Shall we recount the “scandals” of Clinton? Anyone care to tell me what they were investigating in Whitewater? I still don’t know. Travel office? The haircut?

    Not on the Clinton’s most cynical, debauched, darkest day could they manage to aspire to half an atrocity that Rove or Cheney commits as a matter of principle, so lets keep a little perspective, here.

    You’re demonstrating exactly the Catch-22 we’re talking about — the more riled up you get about how unfair Hillary is, the more you demonstrate how completely out of your league you’ll be come the generals. You think THIS is bad? You have no idea…

  • Amen #34. As I have noted in prior threads, my vote will go to Obama, Clinton or Edwards–the one that provides the most postitive support to Dodd on that.

  • bubba @ 35, that is one of the better things Bill Clinton ever accomplished for Democrats: he severely undermined the previously damning meme that Republicans are the party of fiscal responsibility and Democrats are bad for the economy. I’ve always wanted the DNC to run ads with simple charts of various economic and quality of life indicators showing the Bush I term, then Clinton-Gore, then Bush II. i figure a decent ad buy of that would put the meme to rest for good.

  • Z–that chart exists. It was recently published on ThinkProgress or TPM, within the past week.

  • One thing I’m left wondering is how Hillary’s supporters can say that he’s not tough enough to fight Republicans, while also gnashing their teeth every time he throws a quick jab.

    Ding. That’s why this isn’t a Catch-22.

    One of the points the less angry Clinton supporters make is that Obama isn’t “tough enough” to contend with the Republicans. I think this is risible on its face–you don’t go through the life and career he’s had without toughness, and you certainly don’t succeed as a community organizer without a big heart and even bigger guts–but so be it. Now they seem to be complaining that he wants to play by their “rough and tough” rules.

    I actually think Obama should push this harder: as The Politico notes today, there’s a strong argument to be made about Clinton’s terrible judgment and management skills, dating back to her husband’s administration for which she takes so much credit–and continuing through her Senate career, most prominently on Iraq.

    “Dirty” would be revisiting Norman Hsu, Marc Rich, and of course Bill’s various sexcapades (including his rumored affair with the Canadian MP from a couple years back). Were the Obama campaign peopled by the likes of Bill Sheehan and Robert Johnson, perhaps they could raise these “concerns” as things that the Republicans would push in a fall campaign, or by dropping spurious mailers through third-party “independent” groups. But that’s the line they’d have to cross before I could credit this whiny retort from Clinton Inc.

  • I have to admit Obama was a little unprepared for the Hillary/McAuliffe/Penn frothing-at-the-mouth Rovian lie-machine at the debates… Hopefully next time he will have more succcint, to-the-point defenses prepared.

    That’s really all Obama needs at this point to clean Hillary’s clock – to show that he will survive a GOP campaign against him.

  • Memekiller – You’re going to have to kill the whole “if you think this is bad, wait until the generals” meme. Because as I’ve explained before, the hits against Obama by Bill and Hillary are much more effective than anything the GOP can throw at them because this is a Democratic primary and the Clintons are respected Democrats. So their attacks are immediately accepted by many in the target audience. But Republican attacks are generally only adopted by wingnuts and biased media people; not independents or Democrats. So the only people who listen to GOP attacks are people who already dislike the Democratic..

    So, no. I entirely reject the idea that things will be worse in the general election. Sure, the attacks will be worse, but they’ll be just as ineffective this year as they were in 2004 and 2000, if not less effective. Obama is a much better candidate than Gore or Kerry, and people are far less likely to listen to Republicans now more than ever. The truth is that the Republican attack dog’s bark is far worse than it’s bite.

  • Re the first FISA vote: “The final tally was actually 60-36, not 60-34, and the full list of Dems voting to kill were: Sens. Evan Bayh (D-IN), Tom Carper (D-DE), Daniel Inouye (D-HI), Tim Johnson (D-SD), Mary Landrieu (D-LA), Claire McCaskill (D-MO), Barbara Mikulski (D-MD), Bill Nelson (D-FL), Ben Nelson (D-NE), Mark Pryor (D-AR), Jay Rockefeller (D-WV), and Ken Salazar (D-CO).”

    Neither Clinton nor Obama have yet to bother to show up. And I have not seen Edwards in town. So, I guess maybe I need to go through all those lited above, see whom they are supporting for the nomination, and select the person who is supported by the lowest number.

  • Speaking as a probable Obama voter on Super Tuesday, I think Clinton has mad a good meta-point. The “Kumbaya, let’s all be civilized about this” strategy always had an obvious weakness – if your opponent goes hard negative you have to too. What Clinton is doing is mild compared to what’s coming from the GOP both in November and during the incoming Dem president’s first term. If Obama can’t take the pounding I want to know about it now.

    If Obama gets the nomination then I think eventually we’ll see Hillary did him a favor by setting up this practice round.

  • Oh, and could we please give the “Hillary haters” thing a rest? With no doubt, some people here hate Hillary, but I don’t and find this kind of talk even more offensive than the “Bush haters” thing we’ve been fighting for years. Because it’s coming from Democrats who should know better.

    I don’t hate Hillary. In fact, I supported the Clintons throughout the nineties and would have supported her in the primaries if I felt she was the best candidate. And if she wins the nomination, I will fully support her. The only issue here is that I like Obama better, and have supported him since my guy Dodd dropped out of the race. I feel Obama’s the better candidate and will make the better president. And I have no doubt that many of the “Hillary haters” here feel the same way. Thus said, there are people here who hate her, just as there are people who proudly hated Bush. But it’s just wrong to smear us all with that kind of talk. Please don’t make this personal. After this election is over, we’ll still be here.

  • bubba – at a glance it sure looks like most of those on the wrong side (i.e. slapping Dodd in the face) are Obama supporters. Presumably because “post-partisan” really means rolling over for Republicans.

  • But Republican attacks are generally only adopted by wingnuts and biased media people; not independents or Democrats.

    Really? Tell that to Presidents Dukakis and Kerry.

    Sure, the attacks will be worse, but they’ll be just as ineffective this year as they were in 2004 and 2000

    Even accepting the debatable idea that this is true, bear in mind that the attacks aren’t going to end with the election. Scurrilous, dishonest attacks would go on at a furious pace all through President Obama’s presidency, just as they did with President Clinton’s.

  • Bubba @35 I appreciate the dismissal, but I hardly see how your point is made. My point was that running on fiscal responsibility is HARDER than running on tax cuts even if those tax cuts are objectively counterproductive. Can someone run and win by promoting fiscal responsibility, sure, but it’s an uphill battle which is exactly the same as saying that the one promoting tax cuts has an advantage.

  • Obamaists will likely lament…

    You know, Zeitgeist, just because people support Obama doesn’t mean they’ve been duped by style over substance or the cult of personality, or that they’re all a bunch of zombie devotees (we’re not supporting Ron Paul, after all.)

    And yet several folks around here, yourself included, seem to refer to Obama supports in increasingly condescending and belittling terms, like we’re children who’ve just become excited about a political candidate for the very first time and don’t have the maturity to weigh anything other than nice speeches and lofty ideals into our support.

    There are very obvious camps of support that have developed around the top three Democratic presidential candidates, and that’s great. But while it seems like Clinton and Edwards get attacked as candidates most of the time, often here it feels like it’s the Obama supporters who are the subject of the comments, as if they ought to know better.

    Let’s keep this process Democratic and talk about the merits of the candidates, not the merits of supporting them.

  • Really? Tell that to Presidents Dukakis and Kerry.

    Really? Can you show me the voting patterns that show that Kerry lost big among independents and Democrats who believed those anti-Kerry smears. The link below shows that Kerry got 89% of Dems and 49% of independents (Bush got 48% independents). Now, maybe Kerry should have gotten more of their votes, but I don’t see how we can pin his loss on these attacks. If anything, he blew it on the Swiftboat attack, but that was only one of many attacks. And as we all know, Kerry wasn’t the best campaigner and didn’t inspire people. He won the Anyone but Bush vote, while many people really like Obama.

    Also, can’t you understand how attacks by two popular Democrats would hurt Obama more in a Democratic primary more than continued attacks by Republicans in a general election? I don’t see how this is even debatable. Honestly, if everything that the Clintons have said against Obama was coming from Rove’s mouth, would you be equally willing to listen to them? I think not.

    http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2004/pages/results/states/US/P/00/epolls.0.html

  • Presumably because “post-partisan” really means rolling over for Republicans.

    Do you mean like the Welfare Reform, taxcuts, spending decreases, and increasingly aggressive stances against Iraq we saw in the late nineties? Or are we now pretending as if Hillary wasn’t the “third way” centrist candidate whose idea of winning battles is by adopting conservative positions which are only slightly to the left of what the Republicans were demanding? Don’t get me wrong, I reluctantly defended Bill when these things happened and I’ll do it again if I have to, but I didn’t like it and don’t want to see it again.

    The difference between Obama and the DLC centrists is that Obama uses bi-partisan language to push a liberalish agenda, while centrists use liberalish language while pushing a conservative agenda as a way of appeasing “moderates” who like Republicans. They may sound the same, but there’s a huge difference.

    By the way, I supported Dodd and this whole FISA thing is the one thing that really burns me up. I honestly can’t even read stories about it, because I find it so upsetting and keep hoping it somehow fixes itself.

  • Will (and this is in some ways a reaction to Doctor Biobrain as well) you dont even want me to start counting the posts where Obama supporters have suggested “anyone” who supports “the Clintons” are stupid, not true progressives, cheaters, fools, etc. The Obama supporters have made this plenty personal, plenty condescending and belittling; I find it humorous that suddenly the call for civility is directed at Clinton supporters without pointing the finger in any way shape or form at your own.

    Ironically, I think to a person the Clinton supporters (or non-supporter defenders like Anne) have all said along the way that we would be happy to vote for Obama in the fall, that we are pleased about the nature of our choices, that of course we will coalesce around the eventual winner. Can you say the same about the Obama supporters? Who is more “Democratic”?

    Finally, I have never suggested HRC was without faults – I actually committed to her very late in the game (later than I have ever done in a caucus – this is the first year I didn’t actually work or volunteer for anyone in Iowa). But I do think it more than coincidence that some pretty responsible long-term members of this community like Anne, Lance, CalD and others — not just me — have felt that many of the Obama posts read like letters to Tiger Beat. (And in fairness to the folks here, I hear a lot of the swoon-y stuff offline in person that contributes to my perception and annoyance). I’m not sure I have seen more than 5% of the pro-Obama posts make the slightest concession that he could have weaknesses, faults, that he has ever dissembled or stretched the facts.

    As I said yesterday, I would prefer there not be bloody intraparty warfare among the candidates or among the progressive blogosphere. But it isn’t going to be solved by just blaming the Clinton supporters. Your post, however well intended – and I trust it was – strikes me in tone as more of the holier-than-thou stuff the rest of us get from Obama supporters all the time.

  • He’s still playing defense – even the latest ad is another defensive move – and until he can get off defense and play offense, he’s playing the game on her terms.

    I also think that part of his problem is that, other than talking about “yes we can” bring about change, I haven’t heard a whole lot about what that means, and I think when you are going up against someone like Hillary, who is the wonkiest of wonks, and who is a freakin’ machine when it comes to being able to spit out facts and figures and connect the dots at lightning speed, you can’t answer that with pie-in-the-sky speeches.

    He also seems to be hamstrung by the constant need to clarify his remarks, to explain what he really meant when he said x,y or z. The latest flap has him seeming to suggest that if she wins the nomination, he can’t guarantee that his supporters will vote for her. Now, he could have meant that he couldn’t guarantee that the independents and Republicans who were crossing over to vote for him now would do the same for her – but that’s not what he said. He could have said that of course he would support the nominee of the party and would encourage his supporters to do the same, but he didn’t. How hard is it, exactly, to say what it is he means? And if what he was saying was something else, what was it?

    I am as turned off about the prospect of 4 years of constant speculation about whether Bill Clinton is the force behind President Hillary as I am at the prospect of 4 years of “no, that’s not what I meant.”

    Enough already.

  • I don’t see what the problem is here. Obama is staying positive. He’s positive that Hillary will say anything to get elected. He’s positive she’s a hypocrite with respect to Reagan.

    The Obama as messiah message didn’t originate with Obama or his supporters; it came from the bleating masses of Clinton supporters expressly so they could use it against him in this fashion.

    Obama’s message is about hope and unity for progress. He never said he wasn’t going to call out people he thinks are standing in the way of that agenda.

    I swear, for as often as some Clinton supporters rail against the fawning of Obama supporters, I’m seeing a lot of denial and delusion in their recent comments. I’m starting to rapidly lose a lot of respect I had for people who I once thought of as well informed and even handed members of the reality based community.

    The Clinton supporters have done nothing but demand that Obama supports accept their chosen candidates flaws all while wearing blinders to Hillary’s. Now some of them are bold enough to rail against Benen for his supposed bias.

    It really all solidifies in me that it is just a big fucking game for most and that it is all about one’s favorite team win the championship. No one seems to give a shit about principle anymore at all.

    And now that Kucinich is gone, my vote is up for grabs, and Morgan Spurlock is the only damned American who still gives a shit where bin Laden is. Maybe I’ll vote for him.

  • My politics of hope? That the Democratic candidates stop eating their own and begin to offer the American voters clearer visions of how they would lead us out of the Rovean landscape of negativism into a future filled with equal opportunity, equal access, and equal education. That’s all I ask. That’s all us voters eager for change need to hear. Not he said she said slams that our national media has already proven itself fully capable of covering with great anticipation and titilation for the unassuming masses. -Kevo

  • Something I’d like to point out that, as much as people attack Obama for being too “post-partisan,” Hillary is not the fighting liberal. Sure, she fights, but not for liberal causes. She’s highly partisan, but not ideologically so. And she’ll sell us out again, just as Bill sold us out in the nineties. So we get all the fighting, but none of the results. I’ll repeat again, I don’t dislike her personally and will support her as I did in the past, but I’d rather not have to. Because she’s not fighting for us; we’re fighting for her.

    As you can guess, I don’t shy away from a fight. But at the end of the fight, I’d like to convince my opponent and remain friends even if I didn’t. That’s what makes me Obama’s guy, as I feel he’s the same way. This shouldn’t be personal.

  • He’s still playing defense – even the latest ad is another defensive move – and until he can get off defense and play offense, he’s playing the game on her terms. -Anne

    I would agree for the most part, but I think his mention of NAFTA and the AUMF vote was a clear shot across the bow.

    …Morgan Spurlock is the only damned American who still gives a shit where bin Laden is. Maybe I’ll vote for him. -doubtful

    And, in case there is any misunderstanding, I meant vote for Spurlock, not bin Laden. 🙂

  • The difference between Obama and the DLC centrists is that Obama uses bi-partisan language to push a liberalish agenda, while centrists use liberalish language while pushing a conservative agenda as a way of appeasing “moderates” who like Republicans. They may sound the same, but there’s a huge difference.

    Doctor Biobrain, I agree with this, and I did not say that Obama would not push a liberal agenda. But as you know from our prior discussions, one of my fears with Obama is that he either (a) doesn’t really mean the post-partisan, whole new way rhetoric, in which case he is misleading, or (b) he does mean it and there is no realistic way to get there without letting some Republican bygones be bygones – an approach with which I strongly disagree.

    That McCaskill and some of the other “red staters” who have endorsed him lately really aren’t standing up to Bush and at the same time say “Obama knows what it takes in Red States” only raises my fear that what they are really saying is that, like them, Obama will not stand firm because appeasing those more conservative is important.

    Clinton may be no different; maybe it is a pipe dream to think in the current environment we can get someone elected without concessions to the red states, but it does play into my fear about the approach Obama is selling.

  • Let me ask the Obama supporters — what exactly do you think Obama was trying to accopmlish when he said that Republicans have been the “party of ideas” for the past “ten to fifteen years”? What happened 15 years ago — oh yes, Bill Clinton was elected. Who has been claiming to be the party of ideas in that time — it’s one of the talking points Republicans have been inserting in response to press questions (whether responsive to the actual questions or not) with mind numbing frequency. There was a while when Bill Frist couldn’t utter a sentence without saying “by the way the Democrats have no plan.”

    Is it “lying” for Hillary Clinton to accuse Obama of claiming that Republicans have had “good” ideas, if Obama didn’t actually use the word “good”?

    I don’t think so. I think it’s fair to call him on pandering and undercutting the Democratic Party. What she’s saying goes to the heart of what Obama’s pandering comments directly imply. If she says “here’s what he’s really saying in that comment” it’s a fair argument.

    Obama speaks of Reagan being transformative. Well, yes, if you mean that he cut the federal housing subsidies by 75% while passing tax cuts heavily weighted to the wealthy, and running up several trillion dollars in deficits (federal debt went from $900 billion in 1980 to over $4 trillion by 1992). Yeah, it was a transformation all right, but you don’t have to imply that was a good thing.

    Yes, Obama says I didn’t say they were good ideas, but that’s exactly what his statments implied before he was called on it.

  • “Can someone run and win by promoting fiscal responsibility, sure, but it’s an uphill battle which is exactly the same as saying that the one promoting tax cuts has an advantage.”

    You have now moved your goalposts a few times. Another reason to disregard pretty much everything you have stated. Your original post stated unequivocally that McCain can beat Clinton on ever line she has pushed. I pointed out that that was not true, and that the issue of the economy would strongly favor Clinton–not just some stupid comments made in the primary about the economy, or simply promoting ‘fiscal responsibility’ (which I would say is only tangentially related to how the economy might perform–again another reason to doubt pretty much anything you are arguing) but the economy in broader terms, is it going well, is it shitty, etc. And who is most likely to have the best ideas/team to straighten out a flailing economy. That, no doubt, are any of the Dems, but moreso Clinton vis-a-vis McCain considering many, many voters will look at Bill Clinton (and his sidekick Hillary) as a sign of happier times when the economy actually worked for middle America. You might not like Bill (or Hillary), but on this issue Clinton(s) trumps McCain heavily. This goes beyond talking points of ‘fiscal responsibility’ but you obviously do not have the ability to comprehend that and how such things may affect the electorate come November 2008.

  • Doctor Biobrain, look at the Rasmussen tracking poll by week. Kerry had a 6 week run of leading Bush starting on 7/15 and ending 8/19. His leads were 2.5, 0.8, 2.0, 1.9, 2.8 and 1.2. Bush had a 0.3 lead on 8/26 and a on 9/2. On 9/8, Bush’s lead went down to 1.3, but then was 2-3 for the rest of the election. So what happened in August to turn the race around? The Swift Boaters. On 8/5, the Swift Boaters ran their first ad. Three weeks later, Bush had a lead he would never surrender.

  • I don’t see what the problem is here. Obama is staying positive. He’s positive that Hillary will say anything to get elected.

    *snicker*

    Hey, some Clinton supporters still appreciate humor.

    Maybe we can work on a Spurlock/Eric Schlosser ticket. Of course you and I could spend days arguing about which should be President.

  • Debunking the Reagan Myth
    By PAUL KRUGMAN

    Historical narratives matter. That’s why conservatives are still writing books denouncing F.D.R. and the New Deal; they understand that the way Americans perceive bygone eras, even eras from the seemingly distant past, affects politics today.

    And it’s also why the furor over Barack Obama’s praise for Ronald Reagan is not, as some think, overblown. The fact is that how we talk about the Reagan era still matters immensely for American politics.

    Bill Clinton knew that in 1991, when he began his presidential campaign. “The Reagan-Bush years,” he declared, “have exalted private gain over public obligation, special interests over the common good, wealth and fame over work and family. The 1980s ushered in a Gilded Age of greed and selfishness, of irresponsibility and excess, and of neglect.”

    Contrast that with Mr. Obama’s recent statement, in an interview with a Nevada newspaper, that Reagan offered a “sense of dynamism and entrepreneurship that had been missing.”

    Maybe Mr. Obama was, as his supporters insist, simply praising Reagan’s political skills. (I think he was trying to curry favor with a conservative editorial board, which did in fact endorse him.) But where in his remarks was the clear declaration that Reaganomics failed?

    For it did fail. The Reagan economy was a one-hit wonder. Yes, there was a boom in the mid-1980s, as the economy recovered from a severe recession. But while the rich got much richer, there was little sustained economic improvement for most Americans. By the late 1980s, middle-class incomes were barely higher than they had been a decade before — and the poverty rate had actually risen.

    When the inevitable recession arrived, people felt betrayed — a sense of betrayal that Mr. Clinton was able to ride into the White House.

    Given that reality, what was Mr. Obama talking about? Some good things did eventually happen to the U.S. economy — but not on Reagan’s watch.

    For example, I’m not sure what “dynamism” means, but if it means productivity growth, there wasn’t any resurgence in the Reagan years. Eventually productivity did take off — but even the Bush administration’s own Council of Economic Advisers dates the beginning of that takeoff to 1995.

    Similarly, if a sense of entrepreneurship means having confidence in the talents of American business leaders, that didn’t happen in the 1980s, when all the business books seemed to have samurai warriors on their covers. Like productivity, American business prestige didn’t stage a comeback until the mid-1990s, when the U.S. began to reassert its technological and economic leadership.

    I understand why conservatives want to rewrite history and pretend that these good things happened while a Republican was in office — or claim, implausibly, that the 1981 Reagan tax cut somehow deserves credit for positive economic developments that didn’t happen until 14 or more years had passed. (Does Richard Nixon get credit for “Morning in America”?)

    But why would a self-proclaimed progressive say anything that lends credibility to this rewriting of history — particularly right now, when Reaganomics has just failed all over again?

    Like Ronald Reagan, President Bush began his term in office with big tax cuts for the rich and promises that the benefits would trickle down to the middle class. Like Reagan, he also began his term with an economic slump, then claimed that the recovery from that slump proved the success of his policies.

    And like Reaganomics — but more quickly — Bushonomics has ended in grief. The public mood today is as grim as it was in 1992. Wages are lagging behind inflation. Employment growth in the Bush years has been pathetic compared with job creation in the Clinton era. Even if we don’t have a formal recession — and the odds now are that we will — the optimism of the 1990s has evaporated.

    This is, in short, a time when progressives ought to be driving home the idea that the right’s ideas don’t work, and never have.

    It’s not just a matter of what happens in the next election. Mr. Clinton won his elections, but — as Mr. Obama correctly pointed out — he didn’t change America’s trajectory the way Reagan did. Why?

    Well, I’d say that the great failure of the Clinton administration — more important even than its failure to achieve health care reform, though the two failures were closely related — was the fact that it didn’t change the narrative, a fact demonstrated by the way Republicans are still claiming to be the next Ronald Reagan.

    Now progressives have been granted a second chance to argue that Reaganism is fundamentally wrong: once again, the vast majority of Americans think that the country is on the wrong track. But they won’t be able to make that argument if their political leaders, whatever they meant to convey, seem to be saying that Reagan had it right.

  • Doctor Biobrain, I’m trying hard to see you if have a coherent argument here, and I’m sorry but I’m not seeing one. You admit that Kerry should have done better among independents but speculate that the swiftboat attacks by themselves weren’t enough to sink him. Since I didn’t say anything specifically about the swiftboat attacks, and instead referred to negative campaigning generally, I don’t know what the significance of this is. If you want to demand I provide you with a detailed analysis showing Kerry would have won with a more negative campaign strategy, I can’t provide one, but OTOH I doubt you can give me one showing he would have won by staying all positive.

    if everything that the Clintons have said against Obama was coming from Rove’s mouth, would you be equally willing to listen to them?

    I’m not willing to listen to the Clintons – did you note that I said I’m still planning to vote Obama? But it doesn’t matter who I’m willing to listen to. The fact is any Democratic presidential candidate had better not wilt when subjected to dishonest attacks, because (s)he sure as hell can expect a lot of them, and they won’t stop just because (s)he wins the election. I think Clinton gets this. If Obama doesn’t, she’s going to drive it through his brain.

  • All I have to say is at this point, the GOP race is looking squeaky clean relative to the Dems’ race. After almost 8 years of bitching about the “Rovian tactics,” based on their recent actions, the Dems, especially Hils, seem like they were actually learning how to run “dirty” campaigns themselves.

  • Paul K @64 – reprinting an entire article is a violation of the fair use rule; you should limit your excerpts to 3-4 paragraphs with a link.

  • Zeit @ 59 – So much of what people want is respect. Allowing someone to save face is a real thing and goes far to giving people something, without surrendering to them. As you probably know, one of the reasons Gingrich said he opposed the Clintons is because he felt slighted on Airforce One or something (I might not have that event exact, but it was something like that). And so it’s possible for Obama to pay lip service to Republicans, without giving in to what they want. As they say, you can get more with sugar than vinegar. And most politicians are superficial people, so it’s easier to satisify them with empty gestures than actual results. Most of all, they don’t want to be embarrassed or to lose in public.

    One of the events that has me on Obama’s side is the story I read where he pushed for a law making all police interrogations in Illinois videotaped. That seems like a no-brainer to me, but he had heavy opposition from police groups at first. But he worked with them and gave them the reassurances they needed and eventually passed the law with minimal opposition. I won’t claim to be an expert on this matter, but I liked the sound of that. And I think that Hillary is the exact opposite. I think she likes the fight and has no problem attacking her opponent, but isn’t going to get much out of it. She’d rather rub your nose in your loss, even if you got far more than you had planned on. For her, it’s about winning; not getting results.

  • Zeitgeist, I appreciate the response, and I apologize for making you the target of my rant. Your earlier post just provided me with an easy springboard…

    I agree with you that many Obama supporters (here and elsewhere) can get pretty zealot-y. I guess as a supporter myself, I tend to largely tune those responses out (and thus not take into consideration their overall impact on the discourse). I think the frustration that attack mode is now in full force amongst our top tier leads to our debates often becoming more heated and less reasoned as well.

    I’m disappointed by apologists from all camps on the Democratic side. We should be better than overlooking the dirty tricks or lies by omission any of our candidates may try to pull. After all, we’re seemingly the only party that believes in little things like facts and reality 🙂

  • Let me ask the Obama supporters — what exactly do you think Obama was trying to accopmlish when he said that Republicans have been the “party of ideas” for the past “ten to fifteen years”?

    I think he was using their slogan as a way to beat them over the heads with their failures, while also sounding like he’s not being hyper-partisan. If you read the whole quote, he’s saying that we tried their policies and it’s time for something new, and that their economic policies were just tax cuts. Just because he didn’t openly insult Republicans does not mean that he supported them.

    And can you tell us all the great ideas which the Clintons pushed in the nineties which succeeded? Sure, we got a decent economic package at the beginning. But soon, they brought Dick Morris on-board and turned into leftish conservatives who “beat” Republicans by giving them almost everything they wanted. I supported this at the time, but never liked it. I don’t want a repeat of that.

    Here’s the full Obama quote:
    “The Republican approach I think has played itself out. I think it’s fair to say the Republicans were the party of ideas for a pretty long chunk of time over the last 10 or 15 years, in the sense that they were challenging conventional wisdom. Now, you’ve heard it all before. You look at the economic policies, when they’re being debated among the presidential candidates, it’s all tax cuts. Well, we’ve done that, we’ve tried it.”

    And as Greg Sargeant wrote:
    In fairness to Obama, later in the interview he did take a step towards denouncing some of the “ideas” he’d referred to in the “party of ideas” comment. And he didn’t endorse the substance of any GOP idea in particular.
    http://tpmelectioncentral.com/2008/01/hillary_campaign_opens_fire_on_obama_over_reagan_comments.php

  • Dennis D @ 62 – I agree completely that the Swiftboat thing hurt Kerry. But as I’ve said, that was the ONLY attack that had any real impact, and that’s because Kerry blew it and didn’t address the charges effectively until it was too late.

    Are you suggesting that this was the only attack on Kerry, or that Obama just needs to prepare for one August attack? Of course not. The whole point of worrying about the GOP attack machine is that it’s unrelentless. They are the Terminators of the political world and will not stop their attacks. And that’s what we’ve seen. So why is it that we can pin one August attack as being effective, when Kerry had been the Dem nominee since February? The truth is that, despite their reputation for overwhelming attacks, they got a lucky haymaker on Kerry that shouldn’t have worked, and Obama is a much stronger candidate than Kerry was.

    And even still, that one punch only amounted to a minor shift in polling. As I’ve said, Kerry was not a strong candidate and was facing a sitting president, during war, with a diehard following and a world-class marketing machine. And still it was a squeaker that we all agree should have gone to Kerry. But this time, Republicans dislike all the GOP candidates more than they did with Bush, their entire movement is in disarray, and they’ve lost a lot of the institutional strongarm tactics they used to cheat. If they’re lucky enough to land one strong attack, I doubt it’ll be enough. We really need to stop pretending the GOP attack machine is effective.

  • bubba @ 43 – I, too am disappointed, to put it mildly, that none of the candidates made a strong statement against telecom immunity. That said, a non-vote is a vote for filabuster, and later against the bill. In other words, in a cloture vote, it’s the 60 that counts, not the 34 or 36. That said, I would still appreciate it if someone in our government would tell us at least why they think the telecoms should have immunity for actions taken before 9/11. I’d also like to hear one say, “we KNOW everything they did and why they did it.” This seems to be such a one sided issue that you would think one of the three candidates would have grabbed at the low hanging fruit. What am I missing?

  • jimBOB @ 65 – I was saying that perhaps Kerry should have won more independents, but didn’t think the attacks are what lost it for him. And I admitted that, if anything, it could have been the Swiftboat attack, but that Kerry fumbled that one. It wasn’t that it was an invincible attack; but that Kerry failed to block it, as he had successfully blocked earlier attacks. And my whole point was that only people who already don’t like the Dem are likely to listen to a GOP attack, and that independents are not heavily influenced by them. As someone else showed, Kerry only lost a few polling points from the Swiftboat attack, and it was the only successful attack out of many.

    As for what I said about a Hillary attack hurting Obama more than a Rove attack, I didn’t mean just you personally. Can’t you see how Dems are more likely to be influenced by an attack from Bill and Hillary than a general election attack from Rove? I don’t understand why anyone suggests otherwise. As I’ve said, the GOP attack machine is just not very effective and it’s likely to be far less effective this year. Besides, haven’t you read the whole point of this post: Hillary is complaining that Barack is attacking her. So why should we assume he doesn’t “get it” and won’t fight back when he needs to? I think he gets it.

  • As for what I said about a Hillary attack hurting Obama more than a Rove attack, I didn’t mean just you personally.

    I both agree with this and think it goes both ways. This is the essential problem with protracted primary fights — whatever Clinton or Obama say about the other counts more than attacks from Republicans and can be used effectively by Republicans in the fall. People expect the Republican and Democratic candidate to disagree, but the intraparty shots have more credibility in a sense because we would expect them to be on the same side.

  • To follow up on a point that Doctor Biobrain made, I’d like to hear from the Clinton supporters–zeitgeist, I’ll pick on you, since I generally like your posts and you usually seem interested in dialogue rather than combat–where all the fight she and, especially, Bill have shown against Obama was while Bush was running rampant. It’s almost as if they see the uppity upstart as more of an adversary than the Other Royal Family–but that can’t be right, can it?

    As I understand it, the rationale for supporting Clinton is that she knows how to move the levers of government and is “tough enough” to withstand Republican attacks. I’m far from convinced on either point, but let’s put that aside: what in her record suggests she has the vision and political courage to actually *lead* on the issues we care about? When has she led on tough fights–even to the (relatively modest) level of Obama’s work on ethics reform and nuclear proliferation?

    And a bonus question: given that half the country despises her on a Pavlovian level and that it’s almost impossible to imagine a Republican facing electoral consequences for opposing here, how exactly does she win the political victories needed to incorporate progressive concepts into policy?

  • “That said, a non-vote is a vote for filabuster, and later against the bill. In other words, in a cloture vote, it’s the 60 that counts, not the 34 or 36.”

    I hear you. BUT, there would be something a bit more, what is the word…inspiring…or possibly, what is the phrase…oh yeah, ability to get things done…if folks such as Obama or Clinton actually showed up for the vote and stood with those fighting against immunity–it might just influence some of the lesser Dem senators to stand with the minority fighting against immunity. Heck, if the top Dem presidential candidates do not think it is worth the effort to give up the campaigning for a couple days to support this, why should the spineless back-benchers put their necks on the line (not that I think it would be putting their necks on the line)? If they inspired or got something done to the extent that they influenced on person, wouldn’t the debate still be going on? The vote was to table the bill. One less vote and it would not have been tabled, and the GOP would have been required to actually filibuster the damn thing, no?

  • I am not a Clinton supporter but this comment: “given that half the country despises her on a Pavlovian level and that it’s almost impossible to imagine a Republican facing electoral consequences for opposing here” is simply not true and poll after poll suggests it is not true. It is difficult for folks like zeitgeist to provide his side of things when you spout out crap like that.

  • Okay, bubba. Please, walk me through the scenario by which Hillary Clinton convinces enough Republican members of congress to pass major legislation.

    Or any poll, anywhere, where her “definitely will not vote for” number is less than 40 percent.

    If you’re determined to spend four or eight more years in political trench warfare, waiting for the next generation of Bushes and Clintons, be my guest. Just don’t count on any satisfaction beyond whatever the endless throwing of crap might bring you.

  • The 40% number has been dropping steadily over the past couple months. And continues to drop. As those who have only heard from folks sputtering right wing tripe (despise her at pavlovial level) for 15 years get to actually see her and speak to her, that number has gone down and I would say drastically considering the mountain she has to climb in that regard. And the number who would vote for her has steadily increased these past few months. Nor is 40% “half the country.” It is likely much less than that considering what segment was polled. Those are facts. Not rightwing BS. As for convincing republican members of congress, that will likely not be a problem in the House starting 2009, and may not even be a problem in the Senate. But you are seriously deluded if you think that any of the GOP left in the Senate in 2009 will work with, or have incentive to work with, any of the Dem candidates, be it Clinton, Obama or Edwards. The last 15 years has shown this. I think this may be the one area where past performance very well may indicate future results.

  • Obama said “Hillary Clinton. She’ll say anything, and change nothing. It’s time to turn the page.”

    You said ” they’re arguing that Obama isn’t supposed to be making any charges at all.”

    Wrong! They are arguing that Obama is making personal attacks!

    I think this would be a textbook example of a “personal attack” by any definition. There is no discussion of any issue in this statement he is directly attacking Senator Clinton herself.

    Both Senator Clinton and President Clinton have raised issues that they questione Obama’s position on:

    -Pointing out how his position changed over time (Health Care),
    -Questionable judgement and possible ethical issues (longtime Rezko campaign support, Rezko land/house purchase debacle, denying his close relationship with Rezko)
    -Not following up his “principled” stands with actions that might support them (Iraq war speech in 2002 isn’t a differentiator from Clinton when his record in the senate is identical to Clinton’s!)
    -Voting “Present” on votes important to women and other important Democratic issues in the Illinois Legislature. Often the lone “present” when the bill passed overwhelmingly.

    Neither the press nor the bloggers have vetted Obama, they’ve annointed him, they just keep flogging Clinton. What’s a candidate to do under these circumstances?

    Senator Clinton raised these issues in the debate AFTER Obama took the first shot. He had the gall to question her serving on the Walmart board when his own WIFE, Michelle Obama was reaping HUGE profits with her own Walmart associations.

    Obama paints himself as pure and above politics; he may not have done anything illegal, time will tell, but he sure isn’t Ceasar’s wife (and neither is Michelle). Obama is at least a hypocrite and neither Obama or his wife are above suspicion.

    And all he does is whine that it isn’t fair. Hillary isn’t a whiner, she’s continued to campaign on the issues. Obama will be torn apart in the General, he can’t handle a few home truths. Just wait until the republican smear machine kicks in.

    It looks like they have a lot to work with where Obama’s concerned. And he hasn’t explained anything satifactorily. The defense “I can’t hear you” that he used with Meridith Viera is wearing awfully thin!

    He needs to take his fingers out of his ears, stop whining, and tell the truth. And proving that he really is a Democrat and will support the Democratic Nominee (as both Edwards and Clinton have said) would go a long way to solving at least part of his problem.

  • Look, I admit that Obama choice of words in that brief sentence regarding Reagan were not the best. But will all of you Clinton supporters stop perpetuating the meme that Barack offers praise for Ronald Reagan’s ideas.

    In the context of the entire interview it is VERY clear that he did not think they were good ideas. He was simply pointing out that Reagan swept up a lot of people, including some Democrats, which created an enviroment favorable to Republicans.

    What he is trying to say is that he can do the same in reverse, appeal to lots of people, including some Republicans and create a favorable environment for Democrats.

  • also, dajfi, every poll I was able to find indicated that Obama’s ‘negatives’ were within a couple percentage points of Clintons. You can keep spitting out the GOP lines (Rove had been pushing Clinton’s negatives, until they started to drop), but they aren’t necessarily true.

  • Doug @ 22

    Good points. After reading your reply, I checked into it a little closer, and apparently he only hit-the-wrong-button about six times, but he has a stack of “present” votes. Lying may not be his problem, but not wanting to be on record taking a stand is.

    Barack has a long track record of not taking a stand.
    http://www.opinionjournal.com/federation/feature/?id=110009664

    February 14, 2007
    …a number of occasions when Obama avoided making hard choices.
    …had an easy solution if the bills were unacceptable to him: he could have voted against them and explained his reasoning.

    Because it takes affirmative votes to pass legislation in the Illinois Senate, a “present” vote is tantamount to a “no” vote. A “present” vote is generally used to provide political cover for legislators who don’t want to be on the record against a bill that they oppose.

    …in the “Audacity of Hope” (page 130), Obama explained that even as a legislator in the minority, “You must vote yes or no on whatever bill comes up, with the knowledge that it’s unlikely to be a compromise that either you or your supporters consider fair and or just.”

    …his votes could simply be portrayed by adversaries as a failure of leadership for not being willing to make a tough decision and stick by it.

    As a US Senator, there is no option of voting “present”, and I don’t believe there are any buttons-to-push. US Senator Obama has missed 167 of 443 votes in the Senate, i.e. about “37.7%” missed.

  • But you are seriously deluded if you think that any of the GOP left in the Senate in 2009 will work with, or have incentive to work with, any of the Dem candidates, be it Clinton, Obama or Edwards.

    Bubba – I actually disagree with that. In fact, Congressional Republicans have been entirely idiotic for sticking with Bush as long as they have. We’re in the midst of a huge tidal change in American politics and people are rejecting the conservative’s slash-and-burn tactics more every day. These people weren’t even very popular in the nineties, and it was only 9/11 that saved them this long.

    And I can guarantee you that these people are in a panic. How else to explain why some Republicans are planning to not run for re-election? The only thing that’s kept them from turning tail and running is that Bush is still in the Whitehouse and these people are still too cowardly to not follow orders. But I can tell you that they’re not happy about it, and they’re only doing so to their own detriment. And once they lose the bully pulpit next year, they won’t even have that. With a Democrat in the Whitehouse and a stronger Democratic Congress, 2009 will be like no year you’ve ever seen. We’ve got the wind to our back.

    Thus said, my big fear with Hillary is that her return will restart 1999 all over again. Even the Clintons insist that the media hates them more than Obama, and are carrying his water while attacking her. And that’s exactly where we’ll start on Election Day this year once they confirm that she won. She’s going to be heavily on the defensive before she’s even sworn in. And while I have no expectation that Obama will have them carrying his water, at least we won’t start off with the Village storming the castle before they even move in. And that’s not even to mention that the GOP will find it impossible to not attack Hillary, as their base hates her too much; while some Republicans will find it dangerous to oppose Obama too much. And if he’s willing to allow them to save face like I think he will, I think he’ll find some he can work with.

    If nothing else, you can’t use the Clinton-era as a sign of how the GOP will treat an Obama presidency because we’re arguing that the Clintons were part of the problem. Now, perhaps you disagree, but you have to counter that argument with something. Hillary’s promising us endless fights, while Obama says he can avoid them. You can disagree, but a mere assertion that past performance guarantees future returns just won’t work. Because if we didn’t think Obama could do better, we wouldn’t support him. We know that another Clinton presidency will be endless fights; I support Obama because I would like to try something new.

  • dajafi @ 75 –

    i dont know that I really am the best person to answer, since i think that none of the top Dem contenders have particularly stood out in their times in the Senate. This is just a very different election from 2004, when I was a Dean precinct captain, and could point to his balanced budget every year he was governor, the big successes he had with childrens health and early childhood education, signing the first civil union bill, etc. This time out, the only people with anything approaching major legislative accomplishments were Biden and Dodd. In fairness to Clinton (and Obama and Edwards), Congress is very skewed towards the majority, and in the Senate in particular, towards seniority. Dodd and Biden had the tenure to have major committee appointments (and chairs), and spend decent stretches as the party in power. You just dont see a lot of junior senators from the party either in the Senate minority or the party out of the presidency scoring major accomplishments.

    I do think, however, that what Clinton has sponsored and worked for has certainly been good on the issues, including some key items that have not had as many Dems’ attention as they should have. As one example, in 2005, she sponsored an amendment to the Help America Vote Act to require an auditable paper trail (given who was in the majority at the time, it should be no surprise that was sent to a committee and languished). Has you might imagine, many of the substantive bills she has sponsored pertain to womens and childrens health and NY issues pertaining to 9/11 follow-up.

    I think, however, one key thing to remember that you do see in her Senate record is that the idea that HRC and Republicans have some deathmatch hatred has certainly been more myth than legislative reality. You asked bubba how she would be able to get Republicans to back her legislation, but as you likely know some very conservative Republicans – people for whom HRC was allegedly anathama and politically radioactive – have in fact worked with her on co-sponsored legislation (even Brownback co-sponsored a bill protecting refugees fleeing sex abuse with her; Trent Lott and HRC co-sponsored a bill to get FEMA out of Homeland Security, etc) As of November 07 her approval rating in NY was over 60%; the Senate average is just over 50% and she ran well in rural Republican parts of New York. In some ways, the mass demonization of her works to lower the bar (much like Bush was a genius when he didn’t drool or gurgle in the debates, if Clinton doesn’t eat someone’s child raw for lunch she seems positively adorable) which can help her work across the aisle once the election is over.

    Fundamentally, however, Clinton, Obama and Edwards all have to be taken more or less on faith as legislative leaders – none spent the time there to show much. As I said in an earlier thread, I do take heart in Clinton’s raising of subtle yet important issues like the agreement with Iran issue that no one else had really called attention to – I thought that was decent issue leadership. I’d be happier had either she or Obama helped Dodd out. But as I said, this is a different election, this one is almost entirely about what the right style and strengths are for following Bush and much less about substance (on which they largely agree) or Senate record (of which they all have little).

    And your very first question I could turn around – when has Obama used his powerful oratory skills to combat Bush as opposed to saving them to compete with Clinton – but we both know the answer. Neither has done it, nor – despite his fighting talk – has Edwards, who was Mr. Nice in 2004 (even to Dick “I Make Satan Seem Pleasant” Cheney) and then he laid low organizing for the next four years. Although she actually did fight the Republicans fairly well as First Lady. People snickered at her Vast Right Wing Conspiracy, but what we later learned of Mr. Scaife suggests she was correct. And both she and the husband she was helping ended up with higher approval ratings than those on the other side of the fight.

  • First Dr. Biobrain, let me say I respect your opinion, but I wholeheartedly disagree. Primarily due to my having to run in certain republican (voter) circles. They are not quite what you think they are nor do they think how you think they do. Yes, there are some moderate republicans who think that way and who will in fact vote for Obama, but tehy are clearly ini the minority in that party,and their relevance to the party has dwindled to where their influence is minimal at best. And those left in the Senate will in most case be the worst of the worst, diluted down and making it even worse. Hell, neither Clinton nor Obama will be able to work with Lieberman fro crying out loud. As for “If nothing else, you can’t use the Clinton-era as a sign of how the GOP will treat an Obama presidency,” I am not and did not. The Clinton ere is part of the time frame but not the entire time frame, and I think that it is safe to say that the Republican obstructionism and attitude of refusing to go along with anything democratic, just to deny the dems a victory on anything, has gotten much, much worse since January 2001, and has continued to get worse over these past 7 years. I stand by my opinion that those left in the Senate will simply make it as difficult as possible for any Dem–especially if/when the Dems control all three branches of government, and by larger majorities. Their constituents will be calling for that, not cooperation.

  • Danp–per Glenn Greenwald: There was some significant, and apparently unexpected, obstructionism on the part of Republicans this afternoon, whereby they blocked votes on any of the pending amendments and then filed a Motion for Cloture (i.e., to force a vote on the Senate Intelligence Committee bill as is), the vote on which will occur on Monday at 4:30 p.m. Supposedly, the obstructionism angered Reid and other Democrats and now Reid will not only support Dodd’s filibuster but urge his caucus to do so as well.

    I’m still trying to understand exactly what occurred procedurally and what the implications are, but for now, both Marcy Wheeler and McJoan have good explanations. The essence is that 36 Democrats already voted against the SIC bill (and in favor of the Judiciary Committee bill). To sustain a filibuster, they need 41 Senators who refuse to vote for cloture — meaning they would need to convert 3 Democrats who voted for the SIC bill, plus Obama and Clinton (who are scheduled to be in DC on Monday for the State of the Union address). This is where Obama and Clinton’s leadership could really make a genuine difference. More on this later.

  • Danp–also from Talk Left: Everyone is going to be in D.C. for the State of the Union Address, that is a given. Which means, Obama and Clinton will actually have to vote (that’s novel!). What’s more, they can show some real leadership by convincing their endorsers in the Senate (McCaskill, Nelson, Bayh) who voted to table Judiciary to stop the Republicans on Monday.

  • Doctor Biobrain, I have to think this is evidence to support bubba’s suspicion as to how the remaining Republicans will act.

    Frustrated by a newly elected leader’s desire to chart a more bipartisan course this year, conservative Republican senators are preparing to force votes on their own agenda items. . . It is a backlash against the conciliatory game plan outlined at this week’s policy retreat by Conference Chairman Lamar Alexander , R-Tenn.

    Even if all of the Obama supporters are right about his coattails, I don’t see us getting to the 62-63 we would need to break filibusters safely given that not all Dems toe the party line. It is pretty clear that the core GOP Senators are not about to quit fighting.

  • Bubba – I already addressed the Bush-era partisanship problems as being a Bush presidential thing. And I can guarantee that there are very few GOP Congressmen who still want to side with Bush. They do out of fear, not because they support him. And once he’s gone, they’ve lost their biggest weapon.

    And I think you’re remembering things wrong. As Michael Moore reminded us, Bush was floundering before 9/11 and was reaching out to Dems, at least somewhat. That’s when we saw him working with Ted Kennedy on No Child Left Behind. It wasn’t until 9/11 that they saw a free pass to steamroll us, and that was a huge mistake. And after we rout them in November and they lose the Bully Pulpit, we’ll see more Republicans learn the art of moderation. Sure, we’ll still have a few troublemakers, but they’ll be a small minority. Remember, the main reason why Republican Congressmen have been sticking with Bush is because they think it’s the safest thing to do. Once we rout them in November, they’ll know how wrong that was.

    And again, my big worry is Hillary. As the Clintons have said, the media hates her and is working against her. Plus, she’s promising us endless fighting, and I believe her. I choose Obama because he’ll give them the option to join us, and the only question is whether or not they’ll take it. With Hillary, it’s not a question. They will reject her. I’d rather give peace a chance than to jam another Clinton in their faces.

  • It is pretty clear that the core GOP Senators are not about to quit fighting.

    Zeit – So how is Hillary going to do this differently? Are we going to get more of the “compromises” where she gives them almost everything before declaring victory? Do you people not remember how totally sucky it was defending Clinton all the time? Holding your head in shame while defending his conservative policies against ultra-conservatives? How about the tough stance he was forced to take against Saddam? That didn’t bite us in the butt at all. We haven’t had his words force-fed to us while we tried to oppose war. Do you really imagine that things will be any different with Hillary?

    Again, I don’t think they’re all going to roll over and play dead if Obama wins. But Obama gives us a chance at something better. The media and their Village overlords don’t despise him. And the best part is that he’ll talk like a moderate conservative while acting like a liberal, while Hillary does the reverse. And the only thing that I see Hillary offering us is that she promises a big fight. That’s just not a promise I want to see fulfilled. Especially not if her victories look anything like Bill’s. Hillary promises fights and Obama promises hope. One of these look better than the other.

  • I’m going to do something weird here and admit that “the other side” in this argument has at least a temporary point. I’d started to respond to bubba’s posts, and found this latest NYT/CBS poll–which suggests that, in terms of public sentiment about Clinton and Obama, he’s closer to the state of popular opinion, at least in this recent snapshot of it, than I was.

    I’m skeptical of this for a bunch of reasons, having to do with methodology and psychology both (I think people are more “dug in” about Clinton, and that she doesn’t have Obama’s capacity to win people over), but that constitutes my opinion, and the numbers are what they are.

    And I think bubba’s wrong–probably terribly wrong–about how things are likely to play out in Congress, but that’s the future, not the present or past, and is necessarily speculation.

    My prediction remains that if Clinton wins, many if not most of you who defend her now will come to oppose her. (zeitgeist, you in particular! The same characteristics that drew you to Dean–the honesty, the commitment to principle–are totally lacking in Clinton, and she won’t show the fight you desperately want to see once it’s Republicans, rather than Obama, in her way.)

    And we’ll all be friends again when Feingold primaries her in four years. So there’s that to look forward to.

  • dajafi – if our feelings after the 2006 elections and the reality of how little we could get done even with a slim majority is any indication, I don’t see how we can help but be disappointed, no matter who is eventually elected. There is so much to be done, and even more to be undone, and nothing seems to happen with speed commensurate to the importance of the issue.

    I’m still pulling for Edwards. Clinton, for all her positives – and she does have more than a few – is so loaded with baggage that I despair of a Clinton administration that will be bogged down in “is it Hill, or is it Bill?” questions, the likelihood that the media is going to want to pick up right where it left off when Bill left office; it could be awful. And are we ready for “Where is Monica now?” stories? Ugh.

    I truly think Obama isn’t ready. With him, I despair that he will need someone whose sole job is to explain what he really meant when he said whatever. I still fear that the reach-out will be more of a sell-out than we deserve – the backlash there will be horrific.

    I know that even if Edwards could somehow triumph in one of the greatest come-from-behind victories that all would not be sunshine and roses. After all the tough talk, he will get fried the first time he compromises on something.

    Still, when I listened to part of the GOP debate tonight, I was struck with the knowledge that those poor clowns have nothing. The “party of ideas” has nothing new, and the only party they could have would be a pity party.

    Clinton and Obama need a time-out to cool off and stop making it so personal – I can’t be the only one who thinks it’s gone well past a difference of opinion on ideas and has descended into something just shy of “I hate you!” – “I hate you more!”

    Time to call it a night.

  • Dajafi – I too am somewhat amazed at the people supporting Clinton who then suggest that Obama is going to be the guy to roll over for Republicans. It’s like they’ve totally forgotten that she’s the DLC centrist candidate here, not Obama. Hell, the entire “third way” politics we deplore was invented by the Clintons through necessity. But if she’s the rabid fighter, where is her Senate record of taking the fight to the Republicans? It can be argued that Obama doesn’t have a strong record fighting Republicans either, but he’s supposed to be the nice guy candidate who doesn’t pick fights. If she’s the fighter, who’s she been fighting?

    BTW, I want to stay friends with everyone now. This blog brings me about a quarter of my readers. That’s not something I want to ruin.

  • no, i haven’t forgotten the DLC – although that was her hubby’s gig more than hers (seriously, i’ve always viewed her as more liberal than him, although perhaps more little-c conservative. if you’ve ever read any of her early law reviews or articles about the rights of children she’s beyond liberal – she’s absolutely radical)

    but in part i am counting on her having learned the very hard way that Republicans aren’t her friends. success – and progressive success in particular – would be the best revenge.

  • (and clearly, Doctor Biobrain, when ROTF made those silly comments about Obama being smarter than anyone here, he forgot about your 245 IQ 🙂 )

  • To me the argument comes down to what do want to see the next four years Clinton’s ambition or Obama’s vision?
    Both of the candidates are intelligent, highly motivated people who by any measure have achieved success in several different areas in life. That isn’t to say that we have any clue of how well or poorly they will do if elected to the highest office in the land. The question is how do we judge who has the best chance of leading wisely and building the consensus required for a Democrat to lead the country. It appears to me that Clinton’s strategy to win the nomination will have the effect of making enemies of the other candidates, so she is already working to destroy consensus on her own side. Obama has a way of dealing with issues that even when you disagree you’re left with the feeling that he understands where you are coming from.
    That said, this mud slinging stands a good chance of turning into mutually assured destruction and if Clinton thinks we’ll all fall in line after this episode of the politics of personal destruction –and yes she is more responsible for it the Obama–then she and her advisers are delusional.

  • “And I think bubba’s wrong”

    That may be, but as you admit at least I am discussing the issues much closer to the actual facts than you have been. You are free to babble all you want with your emotions, and ignore the facts around you, or fudge them to your liking (you have learned well from these past 7 years apparently). I choose not to and try to base my opinions on facts. I am not saying you will be proven wrong. I am not saying Obama or Clinton would be better. As I have stated many times, I think each has his/her own and distinguishable strengths (and weaknesses) to bring to the white house. But in the discussions here, I suggest when you make such bold statements, especially those that repeat right-wing talking points that are not really supported by the facts, that you support them with actual facts.

  • “Doctor Biobrain, I have to think this is evidence to support bubba’s suspicion as to how the remaining Republicans will act.”

    Thanks, z–there is a lot more out there to support ‘my’ suspicion. One only need open his or her own eyes. But I understand people wanting to ‘hope’ that things will change. That is nice. It is positive. But faith-based anything just doesn’t work for me (and that is all that Doctor Biobrain and others are trying to sell on this point). And I predict it won’t regardless of who is the dem president. That said, I don’t think Obama would roll-over, and I have stated at this site that I understand his tactics here in the primary and have no real problem with them–I am strongly leaning Obama (but I am waiting to see what happens Monday re FISA to make a final decision).

  • Very gracious, bubba. You’re really a credit to whoever you decide you’re supporting today. I just hope they don’t send you out to try and convince others by telling them about their emotional babble and “crap.”

    You’re aren’t “discussing the issues”; you’re attacking me, and it fell to me to actually hold up your end of the argument by citing one poll that supported your points at this current snapshot in time. As your powers of comprehension seem limited, it’s probably necessary to point out that this is distinct from the “facts” to which you so self-righteously refer.

    Intellectual honesty is a courtesy you don’t deserve, and my bad for trying to offer it.

  • What is wrong with all these people??? We won’t elect a GOOD president if we choose someone who is carismatic and good at pulling the wool over our eyes with fine speeches but no experience to know how to keep all the fine promises he is spreading around so freely because he figures that is what will get him elected. Hillary does not have to give hollow speeches with no substance behind them. She has had the experience and knows what she is talking about. So what if she voted for the war to begin with? At, least she had the courage of her convictions and VOTED. She didn;t sit on the fence like Obama because he didn’t want to upset either side because he KNEW he wanted to run for president. What sort of a president would an undecisive person such as this make in this troubled world that needs someone to MAKE decisions, not try to straddle them.

  • “You’re aren’t “discussing the issues”; you’re attacking me,”

    No, I am not attacking you, just your unsupported emotional babble that is, as you noted yourself, in error. I can pull up other polls, polls that go as far back as at least 8 months ago, that show Obama’s negatives within 3 or 4 points of Clinton’s. But you apparently can do that as well. The clear trend by such polls is Clinton’s improving positives and her decreasing negatives. You spout out unsupportable nonsense quite often. I do not usually say anything. But when your unsupportable nonsense doubles as rightwing talking points, I will call you out. I have no doubt that you are a bright, caring, motivated person who cares deeply about this election and the status of this country. However, you are definitely prone to overexaggeration, and when people are arguing over the merits or demerits of our current group of dem presidential candidates, everyone deserves better than those overexaggerations and unsupported claims.

  • Until the recent bickering, I was still open to all three major candidates in the Democratic race. Now, I am down to considering only two: Obama and Edwards. I am unwilling to consider supporting an opportunist with win-at-all-costs morality. We’ve suffered long enough from this mentality from Cheney and Bush. The Clintons have shown their true immoral colors now. How could anyone continue to consider supporting a Clinton after all of their recent ugly smearing tactics? Of course Obama needs to call a spade a spade, and of course it is not the same thing as the original smear to accuse the smearer of smearing!

  • After reading much ado about the candidates, most folks cannot see the edwards/obama thing going on. The “cutey” runners for pres are only that….”cute”. And, the “charmers” are only “charmers”. Isn’t it time to look beyond all that cuteness and charming ways to see that the only real change for the United States of America is to have a female take control and curtail all the boyish attitudes? Hillary has proven she can be tough if the need arises. And, she has the ability to lead this nation back to one of peaceful intentions. Wars only profit the rich not the nation’s majority. Isn’t it time for a REAL CHANGE. A feminine perspective would be a REAL CHANGE. Give her a chance to protect the citizens of the United States. I will.

  • all the republicans want to do is get obama in so when election time comes they
    can really tear him down.so vote hillary clinton for president

  • I will vote not because the nominee who is an idol . Obama will shout “we can change “but does not explain how he is going to do. I will vote for Clinton as she issmart and intelligent and has worked so hard to help Americans. President Clinton was very successful. Have you wondered why. There is a saying “In every successful man There is always a good Woman behind him”.His wife was behind him.
    Sen.Clinton is very caring and she does not shout about the war or changing the world. Everything has to start at home caring the children and not aiming at Power. She knows how to handle about the war as she has travelled for conference.Obama was Not in the White House when the votes No for Iraq. She has to take care of the people before changes and she has proved for all the work she did in the past. She has so much experienc compared to Obama. America needs a good Mother who cares about family. Mrs. Thatcher was good Leader in England.Please think voters the difference between Idol and good realistic leader.

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