Clinton v. McCain — closer than you’d think

First, all the usual stipulations — 2008 is very far away; the public is having a hard enough time being engaged in the elections that are two weeks away, better yet two years; we have no idea who’s going to run and/or how well they’d do; and I don’t have a personal favorite yet.

With that out of the way, a new CNN poll was surprising.

If presidential elections were held today, Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton would likely have a comfortable edge over Sen. John McCain….

So say the results of a CNN poll released Friday by Opinion Research Corp., which asked 506 adult Americans whom they preferred among potential 2008 presidential candidates. The margin of error for the survey is plus or minus 4.5 percent.

Asked if they preferred Hillary Rodham Clinton to McCain, respondents gave the Democratic New York senator and former first lady a 51 percent to 44 percent advantage over the Republican Senator from Arizona.

Moreover, when poll respondents were asked if they prefer Hillary Clinton or Rudy Giuliani, Clinton has a 4 percentage point advantage, 50% to 46%.

Now, CNN got bogged down in some trivia about the poll results and whether use of Clinton’s middle name influenced the results (she lead McCain and Giuliani with or without “Rodham”), but the results are rather startling on their face.

Isn’t Clinton supposed to be a polarizing figure, while McCain and Giuliani have broad bi-partisan appeal?

Indeed, the conventional wisdom is that McCain and Giuliani are practically folk heroes. The nation knows them and loves them. They remain not only two of the most popular Republicans in the country, but also the most popular people. Hillary Clinton, meanwhile, is generally described with words such as “divisive,” “polarizing,” and “controversial.”

Or so the cw goes.

A poll like this one isn’t particularly reliable in a 2008 context — no one’s even announced, better yet started campaigning, better yet still presenting issues for voters’ consideration — but it’s nevertheless a gauge of how the landscape generally looks two years before the next election. And right now, it ain’t bad.

The poll asked respondents about national figures they’re already familiar with, and the conventional wisdom, as if often the case, appears entirely wrong. Clinton not only held her own against the most popular likely Republican presidential candidates, she’s actually beating them. As Atrios put it, “Some people, all by themselves, have come to the conclusion that John McCain isn’t the greatest human being to ever walk the Earth. That’s encouraging.” Indeed, it is.

I’d add that this may also be an instance in which a shrinking Republican tide lowers all Republican boats. The GOP is in the midst of a fairly obvious freefall and voters appear anxious for a change. This isn’t to take away from Clinton’s appeal necessarily, because I think it’s impressive that her lead over McCain in a hypothetical match-up is as big as it is, but I also wonder what the results would be in a generic match-up — unnamed Dem vs unnamed Republican. I have a hunch very few people would welcome the prospect of 12 years of uninterrupted GOP White House rule, especially given the last six years.

Regardless, anytime the media wants to give up on the notion that McCain is politically untouchable, while Clinton is too controversial to have national appeal, that’d be great.

Thanks CB, that is an interesting poll. I call Rudi, Air Giuliani, because as soon as the campaigning gets down and dirty you’ll hear a loud HISS as his support collapses.

One effect, I think, of so many years of Republican dirty politics is that it loses it potency after a while because people recognize it for what it is. I don’t think the rightwing bs is going to work in 08. And the rightwing bs is what McCain has been courting.

  • Doesn’t matter. A lot of people, including Dems, don’t like HRC. And this survey is before any Republican led machine attack against her which will drive her polarizing numbers far higher. And this is October 2006. A lot can happen in two years time, like Barack Obama.

  • yeah – I’d like to see the negative numbers – CW sez that Hillary’s would be way higher than St John’s

  • Does matter. More people like HRC than dislike her. Who gives a damn about 49% of Americans when for the last six years Republican’ts have proven they don’t give a damn about 61% of Americans?

    Look at those polls. There is NO Politican in this country with better positive opinion except…

    … wait for it …

    … Bill Clinton.

    And frankly, Hillary is about the only Democrat I see with the Spine to just stand up to Rovian tactics, tsk, and say “what a load of crap that is”. Which is exactly what we need to do in 2008. Kerry clearly proved he can’t, and Gore has to be kept away from incompetent handlers if he wants to win.

    Clark may be capable, but he has got to start acting like he really wants the job himself, and is not just running to keep it out of other people’s hands.

    As for Barack: “Somebody Else/Obama 08”

  • And this survey is before any Republican led machine attack against her which will drive her polarizing numbers far higher.

    Before she is attacked?? You’re kidding us, right? The woman has been the target of on-going sleaze since 1992. Unlike, oh, just about every other candidate, we know she can take it and where her negatives are going to be.

    Anyway, if Barack is talking about running it’s because he knows that Hillary isn’t going to.

  • Lance: “Kerry proved he can’t”?????

    Are you saying the leadership of the Democratic party is composed of people less intelligent than you, people who can’t learn from mistakes?? I don’t think so.

    Right now, in this campaign, Kerry has proven already his ability to face down swiftboating in his defense of the Iraq veterans running for Congress who he is supporting, each of whom has had a “swiftboating” attempt made on them, each of whom has had Kerry spring to their defense and rally support for them and opposition to the b.s., just like you’re supposed to when these things happen.

    It’s funny how we have this theory in the party that anyone defeated once is now to be thrown overboard. Particularly when you look at Kerry. Doo-doo-ca-ca disappeared without a trace after 1988, Gore disappeared for 3 years after 2000. The week after the 2004 elections, Kerry was back at work, and has been tireless in fighting the Bushies since. I for one think that is a “character-defining trait,” and shows that my initial opinion of him, made 35 years ago in the GI antiwar moement, wasn’t wrong. I think he’s learned a lot from 2004, has maintained his organization, used his supporters lists to help others, and generally done the kinds of things politicians prior to Jimmy Carter do. You might refer to the career of Richard Nixon: defeated in 1962 with a “you won’t have Nixon to kick around anymore.” Cut to 1966, when he helped the GOP regain lost seats and take some new ones, two years of party work between then and 1968, what happened?

    It used to be that a good candidate could get a second chance, and if you look through our history, you will find that almost all of our best Presidents did it on the second try. Jefferson, Jackson, Lincoln (defeated in non-Presidential politics and came back), both Roosevelts…

    The modern Democratic Party, and modern Democrats, have a lot to learn from the way things used to be, back when Democrats kicked GOP ass regularly.

  • Tom, if you are confident that John Kerry can stand up to the old and new swiftboating, good for you.

    LIEberman went back to work after 2000 just like Kerry went back to work after 2004. And this proves?

    “Too ethnic for the Zell Miller democrats?” – Ohioan

    Zell Miller and Democrat should not be used in the same phrase. It’s an oxymoron.

  • The modern Democratic Party, and modern Democrats, have a lot to learn from the way things used to be, back when Democrats kicked GOP ass regularly.

    OK – I’m ready for my history lesson. The GOP was founded in 1854. Got their ass kicked in 1856 by Jumpin’ Jim Buchanan. Then Dems had to wait until ’84 and ’92 (I’d say Grover Cleveland was the original 19th century Bill Clinton although in ’84 he only won by 63k votes out of 10 million – not really an ass kicking there). Then, 20 years later in 1912 Wilson won as a minority president only because Teddy Roosevelt split the GOP vote – and Wilson barely was re-elected in 1916. Took another decade-and-a-half and a Depression for FDR to do some serious GOP ass-kicking – repeatedly. Truman barely won in ’48 and Kennedy barely won in ’60. Johnson’s ’64 landslide could be more ascribed to sympathy/trauma over Kennedy’s assassination and the media thing for “Camelot” than anything else. Carter barely squeaked to victory in ’76 and Clinton never received a majority of the popular vote.

    So, my question is, except for the special circumstances of the Great Depression and the Kennedy Assassination, when was this fabled mythical time when “Democrats kicked GOP ass regularly”? It’s just not readily jumping out at me – although I am hoping that this is one of those special times.

    Robert Caro, in the first 2 chapters of “Master of the Senate” gave a brilliant treatment of the history of the Senate and how rare in history it’s been for the Democratic party and the forces of Progressism to actually be in Ascendency and achieve power. It’s really an eye-opener if one hasn’t yet read it – especially Boomers who grew up thinking that the Democratic party and the FDR view was the be-all and end-all of American politics.

  • Not summary DDD. Of course, control of the House and Senate count too, not just the Presidency. But I believe you are right that progressive voices have rarely really controlled Washington.

    But of course, Teddy Roosevelt was a Progressive voice, trust buster and all that 😉

  • I’d guess that McCain support among independents and Reagan Democrats may be eroding a little as he’s started making the moves to the right he needs to make to try and bag the Republican nomination. Following the party line more and more also tends to dull the sheen of that Mr. Maverick image that has made him such a pin-up for the national news media for so long.

    Clinton is probably helped along by the recent rise in Democratic party ID along the soft edges of the center. It’s interesting though, because Mrs. Clinton is still tracking to center while McCain veers rightward and so far the Democratic base seems open to giving her the benefit of the doubt in large part. That’s really not like us.

  • I’m with Lance, here. Kerry is a good guy, but a bad campaigner. His propensity to spell out everything in great detail bores and confuses people. He’s damaged goods, and I’d bet that many people have an irrational dislike of him from his previous attempt.

    Lance is also correct: Zell Miller is an ox and a moron.

  • Lance,

    Clark may be capable, but he has got to start acting like he really wants the job himself,

    My understanding is that all his big money donors are locked up by Hillary. He can’t get in a big serious way until she gets out. As for Kerry…if he shows us that he will not hire or otherwise listen to Bob Shrum, then I’ll start to believe he’s actually learned something.

  • Re #10 . That should have been “Nice Summary DDD.”

    If Clark is the favored child of the Hillary Clinton supporters, which I accept, than he’s either her favorite for VP or to take the shot for 2008 if she doesn’t.

    Kerry is just too … Frankenstein Monster for me. He’s like Gore squared, without the warmth.

    Right now, I’d prefer Gore, Clinton or Richardson to lead the ticket, Edwards, Clark or Obama as VP. Any combination works though I think Clark is needed for Richardson most and Obama for Gore. Clinton I think is helped most by Edwards. Feingold just doesn’t make my radar.

  • What Edo says. If Kerry is unwilling to throw Shrum under the bus then either (a) he doesn’t understand how unpopular incompetent, beltway losers like Shrum are or (b) he doesn’t have the nuts to win. Oh, not to mention that he doesn’t get that Shrum is actually a loser.

    I actually like Kerry. And, in another era, he could be a fine President. But the Dems must pick a nominee who is right for the time…a time when one national party is exhibiting signs of an irrational, cult-like mentality.

    What are the requirements for this era?

    (1) We need a President who really understands the GOP mentality. He or she needs to understand that they are bullies. We need someone who will not be cowed into supporting stupid policies because they are too timid to fight back.

    (2) He or she also needs to understand that Republican constantly make disingenuous arguments. One cannot get bogged down in endless debating GOP bullshit. If the next President cannot effectively practice rhetorical jiu-jitsu then he or she will get slaughtered.

    (3) He or she will also need to really understand what the GOP has been up to the last 8 years: namely packing the executive branch with ideologues. If the next President is not prepared to really purge the various agencies of the Brownies and the George Deutsches then this country will continue to be screwed.

  • My take on Hillary. Don’t get too excited over this poll. Here are a few factors to consider.

    First, She has been insulated from real GOP attacks the past six years by running for election in New York and against second or third tier candidates. We just don’t know how she would fare in a heavyweight prizefight.

    Second, I honestly believe that the GOP has been keeping their powder dry against Hillary because they believed that she is a fatally flawed Presidential nominee and wanted to run against her in ’08. Whether you agree this strategy has been smart or not (and as the GOP’s fortunes continue to plummet, it is seeming decidedly less so), I believe Hillary has avoided the full wrath of the wingnuts to date.

    Third, Hillary has avoided some of the wingnuts’ ire by selling out. Whether it was her moronic support of the Iraq war or her embarassing attacks on video games, Hillary has shown that she will engage in some of the worst political pandering I have ever seen. The good news: She is more electable. The bad news: She may get us all killed.

    Lastly, it is bad news if Hillary and McCain are starting off on relatively equal footing because McCain and the GOP will be tearing Hillary new one while the Democrats are still praising MCain’s principled, bi-partisan qualities.

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