Connecting 2007 Iran to 1933 Germany

Newsweek’s Fareed Zakaria recently had a terrific piece on the right’s foolish desire to attack Iran: “Iran has an economy the size of Finland’s and an annual defense budget of around $4.8 billion. It has not invaded a country since the late 18th century…. Israel and every Arab country (except Syria and Iraq) are quietly or actively allied against Iran. And yet we are to believe that Tehran is about to overturn the international system and replace it with an Islamo-fascist order? What planet are we on?”

Commentary Magazine editor Norman Podhoretz, meanwhile, is desperately trying to convince the president and the rest of the country to invade Iran as soon as humanly possible.

They discussed the issue together last night on PBS’s Newshour. It didn’t go well.

Zakaria tried reason…

“We have a policy that we understand, which is containment plus deterrence. We’re using sanctions. We’re using a kind of anti-Iranian alliance mechanism in the Middle East, which has become quite successful, by the way. We have isolated Iran.

“Time is not on their side; time is on our side. I think that the onus surely must be on the other side to explain to us why, because Iran might gain the knowledge to make nuclear weapons in the next three to five to eight years, we should launch a unilateral American invasion.”

…and Podhoretz didn’t.

“I want to say that I think the attitude expressed by Fareed Zakaria represents an irresponsible complacency that I think is comparable to the denial in the early ’30s of the intentions of Hitler that led to what Churchill called an unnecessary war involving millions and millions of deaths that might have been averted if the West had acted early enough.”

It’s even worse watching the video.

Zakaria did his level best, noting that Iran has “followed a pretty rational, national interest-oriented foreign policy” for 30 years, is opposed to al Qaeda, opposed to the Taliban, and is easily deterred by Israel’s 200 nuclear weapons, “including a second strike capacity on submarines.”

But it wasn’t to be. Zakaria is Chamberlain, Ahmadinejad is Hitler, Podhoretz is Churchill, and the interview was painful.

Keep in mind, Zakaria would fairly be characterized as a center-right pundit. Indeed, as Josh Marshall noted, “It’s perhaps an apt commentary on the rightward, lunatic turn of this country’s foreign policy that Fareed is taking what I guess must be called the left (?) in this debate.” The cliche about reality having a liberal bias continues to be surprisingly apt.

Podhoretz referenced Hitler and 1930s Germany repeatedly last night, prompting Marshall to add what should be obvious.

It’s almost an insult to what the world faced in the late 1930s. Germany, industrial powerhouse, with arguably the most powerful army in the world, at the forefront of technology, overawing and invading neighboring countries. Iran, minor economic power, second or third-rate military power, which may get a couple of small nuclear-weapons compared to the couple hundred high-end nuclear warheads in Israel’s arsenal (plus, a robust second strike capacity, as Fareed notes) and the many thousands we have — and our blue water navy, satellites, air force. Please. Time’s running out for us? We’re going to look back on this fifty years from now and see the non-podhoretz-loons as the Chamberlains of the day? I don’t know what to say.

I know the feeling.

Of course, it’s important to remember, Podhoretz is not just some random nut, popping off on a right-wing blog. He’s Rudy Giuliani’s chief foreign policy advisor. Indeed, Podhoretz recently boasted, “As far as I can tell there is very little difference in how he sees the war and how I see it.”

Be afraid.

Just the other day Bush was invoking the specter of World War III with a country that “has an economy the size of Finland’s and an annual defense budget of around $4.8 billion.”

Coming next: “World War IV: The Conquest of Liechtenstein!”

  • I like this snip from Zakaria’s column on the subject, even if I don’t necessarily agree with everything he says;

    “Here is the reality. Iran has an economy the size of Finland’s and an annual defense budget of around $4.8 billion. It has not invaded a country since the late 18th century. The United States has a GDP that is 68 times larger and defense expenditures that are 110 times greater. Israel and every Arab country (except Syria and Iraq) are quietly or actively allied against Iran. And yet we are to believe that Tehran is about to overturn the international system and replace it with an Islamo-fascist order? What planet are we on?”

  • I watched that debate last night and was stunned by the lunacy of the right wing. God help us all if Giuliani wins and he is taking his advice from nuts like that.

  • Three things:

    One: I wish Zakaria had asked the Crazy Man if Iran is so religiously suicidal why haven’t they ever used chemical and/or biological weapons to attack Israel?

    Two: Don’t get me wrong, but I wish we had a sane person on that show who couldn’t be dismissed as an AY-Rab (of course Fareed Zakaria is from India, but the idiots can’t tell an Indian from an Iraqi, I’ll guarantee). The people we need to talk some sense into think everyone who’s not white is by definition our enemy.

    Three: Zakaria didn’t even get into how STUPID it would be to attack Iran when we can’t even get control of Iraq. Hell, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs said attacking Iran would have “extraordinary challenges and risks associated with it.” That’s BushCo employee code for “This idea is Fooking INSANE”

  • When the camera first went to Podheretz last night, I swear to god he was sleeping. They guy is senile at best, and more likely dementia-addled. The fact that he is taken remotely seriously by anyone shows how far we have strayed from reason and rationality in our discourse. The fine folks at News Hour did an intro piece on his views that to anyone thinking clearly would have looked like an intentional hit piece it made Pod-man look so looney – but the Podster seemed downright proud of being the only one calling for immediate all out war with Iran. Zakaria looked increasingly frustrated at the irrationality of the whole thing. As you said, CB, it was pretty painful.

  • This is insanity that Podhoretz is trying to turn into reality. There’s really no comparison between Hitler’s 1930’s regime or Germany at that time. These guys are trying to find any reason they can make fit to attack Iran and dominate the world. Podhoretz is the Hitler here bent on world domination by military means. The aftermath of such action would be devastating for years to come. Podhoretz and Guiliani are megalomaniacs, rabble rousers looking for a lynch mob to lead. Their rhetoric is embarrassing to the nation which is quickly gaining the reputation of Imperialists bent on world domination. They already act as though America is a land of Corporations not people. They may get up to 30% of voters to buy their insane aggression, and they may scream loudly to try to convince us they are the majority but America is done listening to this fear mongering. They will never gain the WH by legal means. Their time is past.

  • ***this from accuracy.org***is worth noting on Iran:

    NOAM CHOMSKY
    Available for a very limited number of interviews, Chomsky is author most recently of Interventions. He said today: “When we or our allies and clients carry out terror (or aggression), it’s the justified use of force (for stability, self-defense, etc.). When some official enemy does the same thing, it’s terror (or aggression). It’s independent of the form of government. Nicaragua in the 1980s had an elected government (free election, closely monitored and approved by international observers, etc.), but the U.S. opposed the election and wanted to overthrow the government, so it was supporting or carrying out terrorism; the U.S. had an elected government and was condemned by the World Court, but it was not terrorism. …

    “Palestinians have a free elected government (monitored elections, endorsed by international observers, etc.), but they voted ‘the wrong way,’ and the governing party is on the official terrorism list. When the Reaganites decided that Saddam Hussein would be their close friend and ally in 1982, they removed Iraq from the list of states supporting terror (and sent Rumsfeld to firm up deals on supplying aid, including means to develop WMD); there was an empty spot on the list, so they added Cuba, perhaps because U.S.-backed terror against Cuba had peaked in the preceding years. And so it continues, without end.”
    More Information

    MUHAMMAD SAHIMI
    Sahimi is professor of chemical engineering at the University of Southern California. His articles on the U.S., Iran and Iran’s nuclear program include “The follies of Bush’s Iran policy” which he co-wrote, with Nobel Peace Prize winner Shirin Ebadi.

    Sahimi said today: “The Iranian leadership is currently badly fractured. It is divided into three groups: the hardliners led by President Ahmadinejad; the conservatives represented by Ali Larijani (Iran’s former chief nuclear negotiator), and the pragmatists, led by former President Hashemi Rafsanjani. The latter two groups favor negotiations, and even temporary suspension of Iran’s uranium enrichment program, if Iran gets some tangible results in return, whereas the hardliners want to go ahead with the enrichment program at full speed. By [the U.S.] giving special designation to Iran’s Revolutionary Guards and the Quds forces and putting extreme pressure on them, the hardliners will gain the upper hand, because they will point to this as the irrefutable evidence of the U.S. hostility, lack of interest in negotiated solution, and the desire for regime change.”
    More Information

    CARAH ONG
    Ong is Iran Policy Analyst at the Center for Arms Control and Nonproliferation and is writing regularly on the subject. She said today: “One thing that is particularly troubling about this move is that the administration is portraying it as part of a diplomatic effort. Let’s be clear: these moves, as well as increased unilateral sanctions, are punitive measures. The Bush administration has not and is not engaged in any sustained or strategic diplomatic initiative with Iran.”
    More Information

    GARETH PORTER
    Investigative journalist Porter has just written the piece “U.S. Military Ignored Evidence of Iraqi-Made EFPs,” which states: “When the U.S. military command accused the Iranian Quds Force last January of providing the armor-piercing EFPs (explosively formed penetrators) that were killing U.S. troops, it knew that Iraqi machine shops had been producing their own EFPs for years, a review of the historical record of evidence on EFPs in Iraq shows.”
    More Information

  • Supporting the future attack on Iran is Guiliani’s way of getting support from the oil companies. Any instability, even manufactured, increases profits.

  • And yet, the American people, so irrational themselves, have Rudy very close to Hillary in the presidential election national polls. Even though they’ve turned against our belligerent, cowboy foreign policy, want desperately out of Iraq, don’t want to go to war with Iran, desire universal health insurance of some kind, and so on and so forth, because, because, well, they just like crazy, Napoleonic Rudy and his macho, tough guy, know-it-all demeanor, and because he is Mr. 9/11, because he declared himself to be.

    Jesus Christ you just want to scream at the American people.

  • DID YOU SEE THIS POLL? The Zogby International survey shows 52 percent of Americans would support a strike on Iran, while 53 percent expect President Bush to launch such an attack before the end of his second term. 52% of people support Bush on this. WTF is going on around here? Rawstory has the link.

  • But, but, Iran wants to wipe Israel off the map, JUST LIKE HITLER!!!!!

    Okay, the Iranian president didn’t REALLY say that,

    and his comment wasn’t any worse than when Reagan said communism was doomed to the ashheap of history,

    and Israel didn’t exist until after the end of the Second World War.

    But the beauty of living in Wingnut World is that history, facts, and logic are all optional.

  • As for Rudy (9/11, 9/11 !!!) winning, it saddens me to know that 25% or more of the US population is lockstep brainwashed to vote for any scumbag with an R after it’s name, and to hate anyone with a D after their name.

  • Rick –

    WTF is going on around here?

    The scaremongering is working, that’s all. The way the poll question was phrased as “support a US attack on Iran to stop Iran from getting nuclear weapons.” The constant talk about how dangerous a nuclear Iran would be, combined with the chatter about how Iran is definitely working on getting a bomb, has succeeded in scaring a boatload of people into buying into the Bush administration’s horseshit. And, of course, Iranian extremists are trying to push us into war, because that makes THEIR people scared and garners them more support – the theocrats’ hold on power in Iran was looking bleak before Bush decided to make them part of his little Axis of Evil, and they want to make sure THAT doesn’t happen again.

    Add that to the fact that roughly 30% of the population seems to support any kind of war at any time anywhere we want to have one, and you end up with a recipe for disaster. I actually don’t expect Bush to bomb Iran before he leaves, but he’s doing his damndest to make sure that the person who comes in after him has no choice but to keep an aggressive stance towards Iran.

  • Everything these hawks say makes total sense if you remember there is an ulterior motive. That’s the only context that will explain everything they do. We spend way too much time pointing to the folly in their reasoning. The problem is that the message regarding their ulterior motive gets lost with trying to dispute their “facts”. In the meantime, while we chase their inane arguments, their message gets out. In the meantime… until people understand what it is they are trying to do, they will be suseptible to their spin.

  • As we complain about the fallacies of their arguments, these people in the WH and their neocon enclaves are continuing to beat the drums of war. Their tightly spun rhetoric is having an effect. Zogby notes that now some 52% of asked respondents support action against Iran – even though that nation has not provided any tangible provocations against our national security. Anyone willing to take odds that Bush/Cheney will launch an attact before the fall presidential campaign? I imagine the odds are in favor of an attack, not against one. The talk of attacking another nation for a hypothetical is crazy talk. Crazy talk coming from any individual who would lead, or is leading, is reprehensible, despicable, and just plain nuts, and that is how the Democrats need to take back the framing of this debate. Aggressive war is a war crime! If this administration commits aggressive war against a sovereign nation, it should be brought forward to Nuremberg and tried under Nuremberg jurisprudence. -Kevo

  • And 33% of Americans still think that Saddam Hussein had something to do with 9/11 – IranAffairs.com

  • I think the underlying mentality of Iran’s Mullahs and Hitler might be vaugly simular. However, Germany under the Nazis had the most advanced military on Earth. In terms of military might, there is no comparison. Beside, in 1933 the Jews had no nuclear deterrence!

    And the Mullahs in Iran are increasingly unpopular with thier own people.

  • French historian Emmanuel Todd argues the point similar to Zakaria. He defends the deterrence value of Iran having nuclear weapons.

    http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?ItemID=11551

    “Todd: Nuclear weapons are more frightening when they are unevenly distributed. Atomic bombs were dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki because the United States alone had them. But they were not used during the U.S.-Soviet Cold War. Only when India and Pakistan both possessed nuclear weapons did they sit down to negotiate peace. Only Israel has nuclear weapons in the Middle East, and China is the only nuclear power in East Asia, so if Iran and Japan come to possess them under certain conditions, the distribution would be more balanced and stable.’

  • Oil Oil Oil!!

    Bush is a mad-man who is keen to invade Iran because it has oil.

    If (when) he invades, it will be the USA that is behaving like 1938 Germany, not Iran.

    Who is doing the warring and invading and killing in the world?? Not Iraq, and not Iran.

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