Conservative Ben Stein insists, ‘Science leads you to killing people’

Ben Stein, a former Nixon aide and game-show host, probably best known for his role as a monotone teacher in “Ferris Bueller’s Day Off,” released an anti-evolution documentary recently called, “Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed.” The premise, as I understand it, is that those who reject modern biology struggle professionally in the sciences.

Kevin recently saw the movie, and reported back that towards the end, the documentary veered into the insane: “Stein spends the final half hour wandering around Dachau and telling us outright that his real motivation for attacking evolution isn’t any real flaw in the theory, but his belief that Darwinism leads directly to Nazi-ism, eugenics, atheism, the breakdown of morals, and mass slaughter. Can’t have that, so evolution needs to go too.”

Regrettably, Kevin wasn’t exaggerating. Stein recently chatted with Paul Crouch, Jr. about his film on Crouch’s Trinity Broadcasting Network.

Stein: When we just saw that man, I think it was Mr. Myers [i.e. biologist P.Z. Myers], talking about how great scientists were, I was thinking to myself the last time any of my relatives saw scientists telling them what to do they were telling them to go to the showers to get gassed … that was horrifying beyond words, and that’s where science — in my opinion, this is just an opinion — that’s where science leads you.

Crouch: That’s right.

Stein: …Love of God and compassion and empathy leads you to a very glorious place, and science leads you to killing people.

Crouch: Good word, good word.

I vaguely recall the point, not too long ago, when Stein was considered something of a mainstream figure at the intersection of politics and entertainment. He’d show up on Fox News, and then make a cameo on “Married with Children.” He seemed quirky, conservative, and harmless.

And now he’s going on the Trinity Broadcasting Network, telling a crazed televangelist that science kills, and that modern biology led to the Nazi Holocaust. It’s breathtaking.

Post Script: By the way, as a friend of mine recently noted, there’s been some helpful push-back from the scientific community against this ridiculous movie.

The National Center for Science Education, a group in California that defends the teaching of evolution in public schools, has it just about right, I think. The group has set up a special site exposing the flaws of “Expelled.” Visitors can dip into it and take away as much ammo as they like.

The site contains resources visitors can use to debunk the claims of the movie, including a brief YouTube video featuring Christine Comer, former director of science for the Texas Education Agency, who was forced to resign for failing to remain neutral on creationism.

Also included are reviews of the film from newspapers and magazines nationwide and articles that explain how Stein and his supporters used deception to get some of their interviews. Included is a link to this great piece from the Salt Lake Tribune noting that the film isn’t being screened for critics — a sure sign you’ve got a dog on your hands.

Religious fundamentalists and their allies in the right-wing media are already crowing over “Expelled.” Scientists and left-leaning bloggers are pointing out that the movie is absurd. I suspect in the end the film will change few minds. But if you should happen to run into someone who sees it and asks for the real lowdown on “intelligent design,” send them to ExpelledExposed.com.

At last count, by the way, thanks to the aggressive marketing efforts in the fundamentalist community and the religious right, “Expelled” is the 15th most successful documentary in U.S. history, taking in more than $5 million at the box office. Clearly not in Michael Moore’s league, but nevertheless about $5 million more than it deserves.

I’m a scientist. Should I start to worry about my murderous tendencies?

  • Ben Stein claimed that science leads to Naziism. What Stein failed to mention, however, was that facts have a well established liberal bias, which is more aptly described as terrorism than Nazi.

  • With logic and reasoning like Stein’s, do you think law graduates who took his class are concerned they may have their law licenses revoked? (Granted, if they went to Pepperdine in the first place they likely are philosophically inclined to ignore logic and reason anyway. . .)

  • Ben Stein is a wannabe who is a neverwillbe – his 15 minutes of fame came as the moron teacher in Dan Quayle’s favorite movie, and he’s been doing everything he could ever since to milk that for everything it’s worth and many things it isn’t.

    Like all the other over-the-hill types like Dennis Miller, he’s searching for an audience dumb enough to miss the fact he has no talent, intelligence, or ability. So where does he end up? In that part of society where having no talent, intelligence of ability is a requirement for membership: the American far right.

    That a Jew is performing like a trained seal in front of a bunch of droolers who still think it was the Jeeee-eews who killed Christ, is mroe pathetic than there are words with which to describe it.

  • Steve Benen calls Ben Stein’s denouncement of Science irrational – using the very same scientific approach Ben Stein was disavowing.

  • Factcheck, what the hell are you talking about? I don’t think Steve used or needs a scientific approach to call out Mr. Stein on his B/S.

  • I have heard the advertisements for the movie during Rush’s show, and the announcer says “…a movie that Rush Limbaugh calls ‘amazing’ and Michael Medved calls ‘important’.
    Gosh, that’s good enough for me. Can’t wait for it to come to my town!
    (By the way, I’m not sure what the actual quote was from Rush)

  • It’s not like humans were slaughtering each other before all this science crap came along…or love of (a) god never caused the deaths of millions…

  • Arguing with people who are uneducated is a waste of time. Most people, even those arguing FOR evolution, are uneducated in science and the scientific method. They cannot argue logically.

    The greatest need, even before science education, to teach the ability to reason. Once a person has mastered that to some extent, then you can discuss things with that person in a rational way, even if you disagree. You can look at the evidence and weight it.

    Without the ability to reason, education is a waste of time. Emotion will triumph whenever appealed to, unless reason holds sway.

    As an aside, I once tried to teach a class in logic to a small class of adolescents. What a chore! They would not analyze their reactions to situations, they could not explain why they acted in certain ways, they could not even imagine anyone reacting in different ways! I think this is pretty much emblematic of the population at large, since I would say offhand that most have not much emotional maturity.

  • My favorite memory of Ben Stein comes from some show he was on a few years ago, promoting a book he wrote on some horrible belief liberals have. The interviewer asked him who he knew who held that belief, Stein hemmed & hawed, talked about how there are so many out there, and the interviewer persisted. Stein finally admitted he only knew one such person. And based an entire book about all liberals on that one person’s beliefs.

  • I can’t wait for Stein’s probable follow up documentaries about our 6,000 year old planet, or maybe the bogus Big Bang. After all, if he milked the suckers for $5 million so far, there may be more money out there that can be conned out of them.

  • Oh Ben Stein. It’s not science who kills people. It’s people who kill people.

  • And expelledexposed.com is an excellent site about the movie.
    There seems a lot more wrong with it than its central argument.

  • 9. On May 1st, 2008 at 4:21 pm, Carol said:
    Arguing with people who are uneducated is a waste of time. Most people, even those arguing FOR evolution, are uneducated in science and the scientific method. They cannot argue logically.
    ___________

    Yeah, but the problem is, Ben Stein isn’t exactly uneducated. I dare say that he’s let his biases get in the way of processing information, but he’s no dullard.

    For all the talk of the elitist left, I find some of the horse hockey Stein’s spewing to be uber-elitist (forgive the use of faux-Germanic superlatives). The implication seems to be, most people can’t handle being smart, being smart leads to cruelty, so we’re better off being dumb. While I’m sure that plays well with the crowd that believes that a seprent with an apple that came from the forbidden tree of knowledge made Adam & Eve too smart for their own damn good, it’s an example of a super-smart dude telling people they’re better off being stupid. Ignoring science is the key to world peace.

    Yeah, like nobody’s ever killed someone in God’s name, ever.

    There’s a part of me hoping against hope that one day Stein will pull a Gotcha, and admit that the entire documentary, this entire line of thinking, was just him mind f***ing the truly gullible, and that another documentary will be forthcoming like “Marjoe” that will show how he pulled the wool over all of the creationists’ eyes. I will not hold my breath, though.

  • Forgive me, but if

    Science leads to Dachau

    then

    Religion leads you to 9-11

    I lost some distant relatives in Germany during the war and a friend of mine lost his brother on 9-11

  • Since you didn’t, let me add a shoutout to PZ Myer’s blog, Pharyngula (http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/), a great site for smackdowns of any and all creationists. He also has some great stuff up today about the National Day of Prayer.

    Caution: easily offended religionists may find the site, well, offensive.

  • Hitler wasn’t an atheist. He sure wasn’t a traditional Christian, of course, but he was sort of a neo-Pagan crypto-Christian who explicitly rejected evolution and based his racism on the idea that the ‘races’ had been created separately. The Holocaust owed far more to the virulent strain of anti-Semitism that Martin Luther embraced and fostered. That was certainly the motivation for the majority who actually carried out the crimes in person.

    As to the Communist states under Stalin and Mao – they also explicitly rejected neo-Darwinian evolution and embraced (and enforced) Lysenkoism instead. The resulting crop failures when reality failed to match up to “worker’s science” killed millions, accounting for a substantial chunk – possibly a majority – of the death toll from those regimes.

    Ironically, the people under Hitler, Stalin, and Mao would have been better off if those ‘leaders’ had accepted neo-Darwinian evolution.

  • So I guess he could do his Clear Eyes commercial without a guilty conscience because he discovered the chemical formula wasn’t scientific at all.

    http://video.aol.com/video-detail/ben-stein-clear-eyes-commercial/2998875238

    He must have picked the Ingredients right off the heavenly eyeball bush:

    Benzalkonium Chloride Preservative , Boric Acid , Edetate Disodium Preservative , Purified Water , Sodium Borate

    And I guess science didn’t bring him that plastic beach ball or that polyester shirt he’s wearing either.

  • Oh, smiley, not just your murderous tendencies, your GENOCIDAL tendencies. 🙂

    Is it too obvious to remark that the principles of Nazi eugenics and racial superiority were, um, BAD science? Kind of like how the ideas that the Earth is getting cooler and that vegetarian dinosaurs lived 4,000 years ago alongside people are bad science?

  • I’ll qualify this response by noting that I am an engineering student (about to graduate in a week), an atheist (in that I don’t believe in God or the supernatural, not meaning that I am not a spiritually inclined person), and an avid reader of philosophy and religious traditions. (I am also an Obama supporter)

    With that out of the way, the question of a religion/science dichotomy, and especially its influence in American culture and politics, has always bothered me. To make statements such as Stein’s are completely ignorant and irresponsible. I also tend to think the same way about those, such as Richard Dawkins, who believe that if religion is bad, science must be good. Science, though, is not a way of life. It is a convenient tool for explaining physical phenomena and creating new technology, but it is no substitute for personal contemplation of our human reality. While blaming certain scientific theories for the Holocaust is specious at best, the extent to which the culture of modernity, having elevated science and rationality almost to the role of being a new God, influenced the Holocaust is difficult to ignore. The transformation of killing into a precise accounting exercise is a direct manifestation of a culture that places order and cold detachment above humanity. If anything, the Holocaust and the Bush administration should have taught us that while man is capable of great feats of rationality, he is not and never will be a wholly rational being.

    Science answers a lot of things, but it does not, and should not be a substitute for human understanding. Religion in its institutional forms has wreaked great havoc throughout history, but the spirit of community and sacrament at the base of the world’s religions (even though it may be hidden in their institutional forms) is not something to be ignored. We should recognize science and religion for what they are, and we should not prop them up as the only two foundations of life and society.

  • The part about Darwinism leading to eugenics (which is presumably the link to Nazi death camps) is always good for a laugh at the ignoramusus who use it. “Social Darwinism” predated publication of Darwin’s Origin of the Species (1859), beginning with Adam Smith and Malthus, and including Herbert Spencer’s Social Statics (1851).
    And, of course, eugenics was specifically endorsed in Plato’s Republic more than 2300 years before Darwin.

  • I wonder where Ben Stein thinks the ideas used for making the equipment used for making motion pictures and for television broadcasting came from if not from science. My guess is that Ben Stein would not survive for one week without the ideas that have come from science. He seems to think that it all just comes from his imaginary friend in the sky.

  • Dinosaurs did indeed exist along side man .
    I saw it on the Flintstones .

  • Why does anyone care what Ben Stein thinks? Who will go see this movie except religious people and people who oppose Ben Stein. The main movie going audiences won’t go anywhere near it, so if we perpetuate a controversy it will just keep the thing around longer. I think we should be ignoring it.

    Logic is about the relationships between ideas. There is no point in worrying about logic when you do not start with the same premises.

  • It is always easier to commit when someone volunteers the proof of their infirmity.

  • I posted this over at Kevin’s site earlier, but it bears posting here:

    Let’s see which of the following are the result of science, and then take a guess at which ones Stein has used:

    penicillin … electricity … light bulbs … cars … planes … radio … television … camera … vaccines … aspirin … microwave … cell phone … nylon, rayon, teflon, etc. … computers … etc. etc. etc.

    Those are just things right off the top of my head that were all created by and with the help of **gasp** scientists!

    So either Stein can admit he uses those and is, thus, helping the Nazis kill Jews (or whatever the hell his point is), or he can STFU and accept the fact that science doesn’t kill people, zealots kill people, no matter the basis of the zealotry.

  • The premise, as I understand it, is that those who reject modern biology struggle professionally in the sciences.

    Well, duh.

    That’s like saying people who think 2+2=5 struggle professionally as mathematicians.

  • Oh, my. I shudder to think how many more dead there would be if Bush had any interest in science. Or anything.

  • Awesome, we can rid the world of the most murderous people and or wars if we simply eliminate scientist from:
    Iraq
    Sudan
    Somalia
    Ethiopia
    Zimbabwe
    Myanmar
    Tibet
    Pakistan
    Afghanistan

    I better stop because there are as many scientists in the countries as there are Bin Ladens on the planet, 20 maybe 30 ??

    Does he think all of Israel’s enemies are scientists ? Did two scientists strap bombs on themselves today and kill 35 people ? The new Middle East, a plethora of scientists.

    I am going to go out a on a limb and say the blind faith of religion is far more conducive to killing then science. The same blind faith that tells these clowns were are all from one mated pair, that the entire human race is a result of serious incest. Yet, somehow brown and black people aren’t our equals, even though evolution is fake, they are inferior. Pleaze.

    In a commercial Stein asks “Where did life come from for evolution ?” Ya, you got me Ben, good one. Just answer me this, where did god come from to create life ?

    I wish NASA with it’s murderous scientists would find some life already. I am so anticipating the “god created man” crowd back-peddle explaining where in the, holiest of holy books, it mentions life in another galaxy.

  • I guess Ben Stein only goes to faith healers? Last time I checked doctors used science.

  • I just wanted to point out another parallel to Ben Stein: drinking milk as an infant also leads you to killing people. So does wearing clothes.

  • Contrary to what Herr Stein may believe, I’ve yet to see any scientific documents exhorting one people to grab their jawbones-of-asses, go out into the wilderness, and start smiting another people by the bushel. On the other hand, I’ve never seen a Bible that doesn’t exhort one people to grab their jawbones-of-asses, go out into the wilderness, and start smiting another people by the bushel.

  • Mark D #28 stole my thunder, but I would go a bit further. I would say that science, in fact, leads to civilization. Without science, and its offspring technology, we’d hardly be out of the trees. Think about it. All advances have come from objective observation, experimentation and applications of theory within the natural world. I can’t think of any material contribution that superstition/religion/magic has made.

    It’s also very interesting that those who disavow evolution, one of the most established scientific theories of all, willingly accept and trust all the other fruits of science, such as those listed by Mark D, without question. Rather curious, to say the least. Why don’t they question whether airplanes really fly, or claim Jesus holds them up or something?

  • Stein: …Love of God and compassion and empathy leads you to a very glorious place, and science leads you to killing people.

    Oh yeah, sure. Except that, when my — very religious — grandmother and two of her daughters stripped for the “shower” in Auschwitz, I dare say the last thing they saw was the “Got mit uns” proclamation etched into the belt buckles of their Nazi guards and, probably, concluded that God was, indeed, on the side of those endlessly compassionate, God-loving men…

    Eff you, Stein, and the death horse you rode in on.

  • He made a movie with no budget. Probably he will net millions after theaters and dvds. Nobody ever lost money understimating the intellingence of certain american audience.

  • Mr. Benen employs reason to criticize Ben Stein, but in the very passage Benen cites, Stein rejects reason as a legitimate mode of inquiry.

  • Expelled is one film which cries out for a rebuttal film and a full-blown media pushback. Frankly, I think the science community will prove itself to be asleep at the switch if it continues to remain apathetic or low-key in the face of an growing tsunami of militant scientific ignorance.

  • Mary said: Logic is about the relationships between ideas. There is no point in worrying about logic when you do not start with the same premises.

    Thank you, Mary, for explaining to us why trying to explain anything to you is impossible. I was beginning to wonder.

  • #39 need for rebuttal? Scientist should have more important things to do that enter in a discussion with this idiot. It’s like, let me take sometime from finding the cure to cancer and work on a movie to contradict Stein. Stein audience is beyond redemption. Waste of time.

  • It never ceases to amaze me. People like Ben Stein, and his followers and adherents, accept without question the products of science, engineering and technology. Without batting and eye or having a deep thought, they ride in our elevators and live in our high rises, they cross our mighty bridges and fly in our planes, they sail in our ships and ride in our cars, they take our medicines and eat our food, they have their artificial joints installed and dress in our manufactured clothing, they use our technology to wage war and domestic violence. All products of the evil discipline of science. Yet, I have yet to get even one of them to explain to me how millions of scientists and experimenters (from before the Greeks to today), working for over a thousand years (more if you count the Egyptians and their pyramid building skills), in hundreds of countries (all over the world), laboring in dozens and dozens of scientific disciplines (astronomy, cosmology, archeology, paleontology, biology, physics, chemistry, and many others) conducting millions upon millions of experiments and collecting billions of data points studying countless phenomena, constructing and testing countless hypotheses and models and looking at issues from numerous angles, all seem to have simultaneously (a) converged on the same answers (think evolution and global warming) and (b) got it completely wrong in the exact same way.

  • Ben Stein NEVER said “Science” is leading people to kill. either the author is dumb or he is a liar and deceiver with the intent to deceive all the sheep here that follow him deceived and stating that it is science that Ben Stein is attacking.

    NO HE IS NOT ATTACKING SCIENCE.

    BEN STEIN IS ATTEMPTING TO SHOW YOU IDIOTS THAT SCIENCE HAS BEEN HICKJACKED BY THE LIKES OF RICHARD DAWKINS AND THE OTHER STAUNCH EVOLUTIONISTS.

    DO YOU UNDERSTAND???? SHALL I SPELL IT OUT AGAIN..

    BEN STEIN OR THE INTELLIGENT DESIGN FOLKS ARE NOT AGAINST SCIENCE. THE INTELLIGENT DESIGN ARGUMENTS ARE SCIENTIFIC.

    I have read many people write “why dont the proponents of intelligent design prove their arguements?” Well Duh… they have … and the proofs are out there.

    There is intelligence in the information that is in the DNA. It is not random.

    THINK THINK THINK … it is healthy to think a little. Ben Stein has done a great job in producing such a powerful movie. He has the Religious Darwinists on the run using all kinds of spin and name calling tactics instead of produsing ANY relevant proof of their theory. (It does not exist … so they can not produce it. Evolutionary belief is a FAITH … which is less credible than intelligent design.) It has become a religion and some scientists are brave enough to walk away from what they see is a deception.

    You folks are either the perpetrators of this dogma or victims who will, like much of Germany, misled by Hitler, and much of the USSR by Stalin who used propaganda and brainwashed them… most of the folks who do not use their minds are being brainwashed by these stupid theories and they will walk right into the New World Order … one world govenment, that all the leaders of the world are already talking about. This government will not be the democratic government that you would like to have. You will have no voice in it. It is your own stupidity that will lead you into it.

    Once you believe that you are evolving chemicals and nothing more, then your life is totally meaningless. You do not know when you are going to die, It could be just today…. then what? You think that you will just become ashes or dirt. So then why not do anything you wish to do? Got the most selfish pleasures for yourself. Who is to stop you?

    This is exactly why the movie shows what it does about the evil intent of this very theory. And you folks, who call yourselves scientists are following the leaders like sheep. Just wait for your slaughter. It will happen. Did you know what the topmost agenda for the new world order is?

    They have it carved in stone at a site in GA. It is

    “To maintain the population of the world under 500,000 people.”

    How are they going to do this. There are more then 6,500,000 people now.

    Think about it.!!!!!!!!!

    You are being led to your slaughter, by first brainwashing you and then bringing about the New World Order where you will lose your freedoms.

    Stalin and Hitler were precursors of what is happening right now, but on a global scale.

  • Every Sunday morning Ben Stein arrives on my tv set as I’m usually cooking breakfast and reading the paper. It has become a game as to how fast I can get to the remote to get that stinking piece of aristocratic, or what’s the word? Oh yeah, ELITIST piece of shit off my screen.

  • ps. Ashok, If you’ve ever been HICKJACKED you damn well know it! I have not been hickjacked lately.

  • I guess if someone uses lots of capital letters and exclamation points, they must have a good point. From now on, I’ll just ignore the fossil record, biogeography, molecular biology, and the structural and biochemical homologies that throughout all classes of life. If there is a phenomenon that is not yet fully understood, I’ll just chalk it up to the Designer. That way I’ll never actually need to think at all. Maybe I’ll even teach a course about it. I already know what I’d ask on the final: “What accounts for the complexity of life on Earth?” Correct answer: “The Designer did it.”

  • Ashok, you may also be surprised to learn that there are actually close to 6.5 billion (6.5*10^9) people on Earth. Whoops. Is it okay that I wrote that in scientific notation, or does that reveal my support of the New World Order?

  • As stated by an Ashok,

    “BEN STEIN OR THE INTELLIGENT DESIGN FOLKS ARE NOT AGAINST SCIENCE. THE INTELLIGENT DESIGN ARGUMENTS ARE SCIENTIFIC.”

    O.K. folks, here is how the scientific method really works. It’s not a democracy. You don’t get a vote until you’ve had a basic (call it a BS) amount of scientific education from accredited (call it college for the U.S.) sources.

    You get that? YOU DON’T GET A SAY AT ALL.

    Now, once you’ve gotten your basic educational unit, and you have an idea (let’s call it a THESIS) you propose it, test it, and then try to convince those who have the same basic education that you’re not a crack-pot.

    We’ll call this PEER REVIEW. It’s brutal. NO ONE GETS A VOTE EXCEPT YOUR PEERS. THATS IT!

    If the idea holds, you take it to the next level. You ‘challenge’ the next higher unit of learning (like people who have MS or PhDs) with your idea. They look at it, and you and your peers DON’T GET ANY VOTE AT ALL. If they think it’s stupid, the idea is completely and absolutely DESTROYED.

    At this point, you have a few choices.

    You can go back to school, studying under the next level, until you achieve an education in the next peer group. Then you get to vote with them.

    You can rethink your idea and retest/experiment until you’re convinced that you’re right, and start at square one again.

    You can slink off and tell everyone how ‘right’ you are, even though you are a crack-pot.

    The issue with Intelligent Design is that it can’t be tested, and hasn’t even passed the first stage. Rather than accept that evolution has survived the peer review process for a long long time, the proponents have slunk off, and the scientific community thinks that they are basically crack-pots.

    Now, personally, I suspect that you, Ashok, are in the crowd of people who don’t get a vote. I may be wrong, but I haven’t run across too many classically educated scientists who think these ideas stand even the most basic examination.

    So shush.

  • Ashok… one more thing… if you truly rely on God or a higher power of some kind to prevent you from doing evil… and that alone is the only reason why you are good… than sir… i pity you… for truly there can be few fools as great as you.

  • Funny, this proclation that science, and things scientific like evolution, leads to mass killing comes from a guy who had a show called “Win Ben Stein’s Money” because, after all, money is really the root of all evil, not science.

    But what is it with Yale? Bush was a Yale grad and Stein received his JD from Yale … does that institution fill students’ brains with knowledge or suck the brains out of their students? Can we all agree that Yale’s Ivy League mystique is officially bullshit?

  • We’ll call this PEER REVIEW. It’s brutal. NO ONE GETS A VOTE EXCEPT YOUR PEERS. THATS IT!

    Watch the movie which tells you that Sternberg mentioned an article by the very smart, Cambridge UK educated Dr. Steven Myers, he was immediately ousted and persecuted by the hijackers of science. That is not the way of science. You do not bully people just because they propose something different.

    Jess, what evidence does evoluton have? All the evidence that has been presented has been either fradulent, or misguided or made up stories. It is easy to make graphics images of monkey like creatures slowly turning into a man. Those are cartoons to brainwash people like you. You then begin to believe them. If evolution was true, the earth would be littered with fossils of missing links in all stages of “slow changes”. No such evidence has ever been found. NONE. Zero, NADA, Then there is the other evolutionary embarrasment of the “Cambrian Explosion” where all the creatures suddenly appear (from nowhere). There is nothing in the strata below them. The fossils are of creatures fully formed with complex forms.

    Then there is the cell which Darwin knew absolutely nothing about. Let the evolutionist come up with a plausible explanantion of how the internal workings of the cell “evolved” and if it is logical and reasonable, I shall be the first to accept it. Otherwise, shut up and listen to other people who have alternative scientific suggestions. Do not hold on to your RELIGION of evolution so steadfastly. EXAMINE the evidence closely.

    Explain to me how the information that is required to do the extraordinarily complex tasks that are being done all the time within the cell can evolve. Do not use magical millions of years as your excuse (I have heard it over and over again… “anything can happen in millions of years”… give me a break. I am not THAT stupid.)

    When archaeologists find tools that are attributed to life in the past, they conclude that some intelligent being made those tools. Forensic science uses this technology all the time. It is called detection of intelligence. We now live in the age of technology. I design computers and electronic circuits and I also program computers. The computers are useless without the software. You can not write software unless you have a language to write it in. Some intelligence designed computers, some other intelligence designed the languages and a third intelligence used the language to write the software.

    The biological cell contains factories upon factories (all molecular) all working with extreme efficiency and accuracy that no human factory could even dream of achieving. And all of this work occurs in total darness since the carriers and the working machines do not have the luxury of sight. Yet they assemble machines, motors, other transport mechanisms, power generators, and do so efficiently. A single cell is more complex then the whole city of London with all its electrical cables, underground system, buses, cars, sewer and water supply systems etc. Yet the cell is simply the smallest of the parts that constitute life. How did the molecules ever know how to begin life. If you calculate the probabilities, then for the first DNA to organise it self can be shown to never occur even if you take the billions of years that is estimated to be the age of the Universe and have these molecules changing sequences, quintillion times per second. Even then the chance of a single dna molecule occuring does not compute. At this point, you do not have the excuse that this is life and it does not behave like other substances, since this is not life as yet. How do you explain it? Give me a reasonable explanation, and I shall become an evolutionist as soon as it makes sense. That is pretty fair.

    Otherwise, stop being so ridiculously stupid.

  • raffles,

    That was a stupid statement. Stupid is what stupid does. I do not rely on God to prevent me from doing evil. What made you conclude that. I never mentioned that. All I said was that evolution belief provides nothing to stop people from doing evil. People do what people do… even religious people do evil.

    If you are an evolutionist, how do you even define EVIL?
    What is Evil for an evolutionist?

    if you are an evolutionist, then you should agree with what Hitler and Stalin did. They tried to “cleanse” the human race. If you are an evolutionist, then you should not worry about the sick, and the disabled being exterminated, maybe when it is done humanely. It is only the notion that all human life is precious because all human beings are created as equals by God that you begin to undestand what is Evil and what is not evil. Otherwise, you make your own laws and he who is the strongest wins.

  • Jesus, I can’t wrap my brain around the level of ignorance displyed in a few of the prior posts. Honest to Christ!

    (puns intended)

  • And if the Georgia Guidestones are some kind of New World Order, count me in!
    Jesus where do these people come from?

  • On May 2nd, 2008 at 1:45 am, CaptJP said:
    Ashok proves my theory. Religion is mental illness.

    Statements like these are absolutely baseless, idiotic, just drawn up from the air… no logic, nothing to back it up, That is what evolunists do are are made of…. mere conjecture, mere made up stories with no basis to back it up.

    I rest my case. You folks make fools of your selves. Just because there are more of you does not win the arguement. You need some sound arguemnts which none of you have.

  • 56. On May 2nd, 2008 at 2:12 am, MsJoanne said:
    And if the Georgia Guidestones are some kind of New World Order, count me in!
    Jesus where do these people come from?

    MsJoaane, they will count you in.. and then they will count you into a gas chamber too. You will go like sheep to your slaughter since they will not tell you where they are taking you.

    6.5 billion people now … to get to 0.5 billion means 6 billion will necessarily need to be gassed. (or eliminated in some manner). I would put your odds being against you to be one of the half a billion people who will live.

    Be my guest, seal your own fate.

  • Again, from Ashok:

    “MsJoaane, they will count you in.. and then they will count you into a gas chamber too. You will go like sheep to your slaughter since they will not tell you where they are taking you.”

    Um, exactly when are you going to start demonstrating that you’re not a crack-pot?

    Intelligent design/ evolution debate aside, are you taking you meds? Need to adjust your foil hat, perhaps? Or is your bio-chip malfunctioning? Honestly, you’ve done more damage to any idea you wanted to present….

    Relax. Breath deep and all that. Have a glass of wine or something.

    Oh. And you still should get a scientific education (computer IT and programming doesn’t count) before you rant. There is a reason Dr. Steven Myers was rejected by his peers. He, unfortunately, drank the cool-aid. Until he can get the rest of us to drink it, his theories are bunk. Sorry. That’s how it works. Now, if you can invent a Godometer, you know, to measure the presence of God in cell chromosomes or something, then I’ll change my mind. After all, that’s the obligation if someone proves everyone else is wrong. We ALL have to change our minds…

  • Ben Stein is a hypocrite, and quite possibly a prostitute (with all due respect to sex workers). He is prepared to say anything so long as he’s paid.

    So he’s ready to say science leads to killing people if the obviously non-scientific Intelligent Design advocates pay him to. On the other hand, he’s equally willing to promote eye-drops developed by scientists – if he’s paid to do so.

  • If any other creationists drop by this thread to whine about how evolution defenders never answer their arguments and then crow it’s because we can’t, I just want to say a little something: There’s a link to Expelled Exposed in CB’s post. Click it. Your arguments are debunked there.

    Scientists have answered you, patiently and impatiently. Evolution is science. Intelligent Design is ideology. And there are a thousand websites that deconstruct your every claim. There’s no room on this thread to even begin to do so.

    Here, we have fun calling your arguments foolish. There, scientists prove they are, with science and everything.

    Are we clear?

    Excellent post, CB!

  • # 60 You should take that back, prostitutes don’t necessarily engage in intellectual dishonesty.

  • 57. On May 2nd, 2008 at 2:30 am, Ashok said:

    On May 2nd, 2008 at 1:45 am, CaptJP said:
    Ashok proves my theory. Religion is mental illness.

    Statements like these are absolutely baseless, idiotic, just drawn up from the air… no logic, nothing to back it up, That is what evolunists do are are made of…. mere conjecture, mere made up stories with no basis to back it up.

    As opposed to statements like these?

    if you are an evolutionist, then you should agree with what Hitler and Stalin did.

    Once you believe that you are evolving chemicals and nothing more, then your life is totally meaningless.

    MsJoaane, they will count you in.. and then they will count you into a gas chamber too. You will go like sheep to your slaughter since they will not tell you where they are taking you.

    Exactly how are these religiously insane fantasies and conjectures supported by reality?

    I rest my case. You folks make fools of your selves. Just because there are more of you does not win the arguement. You need some sound arguemnts which none of you have.

    As opposed to the sound arguments you have brought here? Projecting your religious insanity on those who do not accept it as being fact-based? This is what you consider to be ‘sound argument’? Seriously?

    Fork over the cash for me to see this farcical waste designed to justify religious insanity, and I’ll be glad to rip it apart, line by line, in an objective, reality-based review. It’ll be a waste of a few hours of my life, but if I can save that time for others, then I’ll be more than willing to do it. Until then, save your sermons for the corner soapbox.

    Also, here’s a clue: YELLING IN OTHER PEOPLE’S FACES, ON OTHER PEOPLE’S WEB SITES, IS PRETTY FCUKING RUDE. Perhaps you could restrict yourself to civilized adult behavior when you’re talking to the grownups next time…

  • 63. On May 2nd, 2008 at 8:19 am, The Answer is Orange said:
    I don’t think Torquemada was much of a scientist.

    [Hooded monk speaks to the camera, and introduces the lead singer for the next number…]

    All pay heed! Now enters his holiness, Torquemada, the Grand Inquisitor of the Spanish Inquisition.
    Torquemada – do not implore him for compassion.
    Torquemada – do not beg him for forgiveness.
    Torquemada – do not ask him for mercy.
    Let’s face it – you can’t talk him outta anything!

  • Scary stuff from todays WSJ “Both houses of the Florida legislature passed academic freedom bills this month, but it is unclear whether backers can reconcile the two versions before the spring session closes Friday. If not, they will have to try again next year. Prospects may be better in Louisiana, where the state Senate this week unanimously approved a bill ensuring that teachers can go beyond the biology textbook to raise criticisms of evolution. Similar bills have just been introduced in Alabama and Michigan and this week passed through a house committee in Missouri.” http://online.wsj.com/article/SB120967537476060561.html?mod=todays_us_page_one

  • … mere made up stories with no basis to back it up.

    Thank you for describing both the Bible and Intelligent Design in such a succinct and straight forward manner. I couldn’t have explained why both should be kept out of a science classroom any better myself.

    Well done!

    Now please do us all a favor and up your medication. And turn off the “Caps Lock” button.

  • jibeaux@21
    Ain’t it funny that some of the biggest proponents of this movie will be the same people arguing that white people should make more kids? (Reverse eugenics? Just as ineffective for the same reasons. Genes are moving targets and we owe our existence to that fact.)

  • Ashok,

    Just because you write that that transitional fossil don’t exist doesn’t make it true. More transitional fossils between different genera and species are found every year. The reason that they are found is because scientists know where to look. The sedimentary rocks that make up the Earth aren’t distributed randomly. The principle of uniformitarianism allows scientists to determine the general age of rock layers. That’s how transitional fossils between fish and amphibians were recently found.

    The rapid changes seen during the Cambrian explosion are easy to explain using the theory of evolution. There were numerous empty niches to be filled because previously there weren’t multicellular animals. Populations evolved, becoming more efficient at filling these niches, and separate populations eventually become separate species.

    It’s not difficult to imagine the evolution of a eukaryotic cell if you simply look at all of the mutualistic relationships that exist in nature, such as lichens, mycorrhizae, and the bacteria that live in our intestines. Structures such as mitochondria and chloroplasts have their origins in similar mutualistic relationships.

    Tools fashioned by human cultures (and other animals) are not they same as the biochemical machinery. If you’re trying to make a point, make sure you are comparing apples to apples.

    You don’t seem to be of the young Earth persuasion, so I don’t understand why you discount the immense amount of time in those estimated 4.5 billion years. Even if an event was unlikely, that does not mean that it didn’t happen. Making a calculation about the likelihood of life beginning is almost impossible.

    You seem to want to accept the idea of intelligent design based on moral principles, or at least that’s Stein’s rationale. The problem with that is that our desires don’t shape truth. Moreover, the moral implications of an intelligently designed universe are a harsh indictment of the designer’s moral code. Who would design a world where organisms must suffer and die to meet the needs of other organisms? From an engineering standpoint, why would anyone give a human a backbone, a pelvis, and knees better adapted to walking on all fours rather than upright? The problem with these questions is that they are not scientific. However, those are the types of questions raised by the idea of intelligent design. That is why the idea of intelligent design has no place in science.

  • Why are so many people afraid to even consider the theory of intelligent design and immediately want to label it religion or creationism? The question is simply, “was their any intelligence involved in the design of the universe and all of the things in it? ” The intelligence could have been from beings from another planet or from a superior being.

    How can anybody actually believe that something as awesome and magnificent as the universe, or even the human body, is the end result of random mutations is most puzzling. The design is everywhere we look, from the seasons to the year to the self healing of the body.

    Honestly, what are you people afraid of?

  • Kevin, your comments illustrate a bifurcation in human thought that arose about 400 years ago. We can state that the magnificence of the seasons tells us that a God exists, and he creates these seasons, or, we can determine that the seasons are due to the tilt of the earth’s axis and its revolutions about the sun. When people raised a “naturalistic” explanation of the seasons, they were tortured, imprisoned and in some cases executed by religious authorities. The naturalistic explanation has now triumphed, and geophysics textbooks do not include a commentary about how the seasons are explained by a Creator. On the other hand, the creationists and Intelligent Design proponents want to place in biology classrooms and biology textbooks similar arguments about design that appeared in “earth science” and geography books one hundred years ago (the magnificence of rivers, clouds, etc. shows that they must have been created). A conservative Republican judge (appointed by Bush) examined all of the arguments for introducing Intelligent Design into biology classrooms in the Dover trial, and concluded that it involved “breathtaking inanity” and was a blatant attempt to introduce religion into science.

  • According to polls, the countries with the highest percentage of people who embrace evolution are Iceland and Denmark. Both countries have low crime rates and some of the lowest infant mortality rates in the world. And many Danes fought against Nazism.

    Not too many members of the Taliban embrace evolution…

  • Garbage in, garbage out. You buy the premise, you buy the bit.

    Mr. Stein exemplifies the above, and as such serves as a living warning to all of us to never forget to think in a critical manner.

  • My magical, invisible friend will allow you to be tortured forever if you don’t pretend he exists! Shut down your minds and open your hearts to my (alleged) magical, invisible friend!
    Magical, invisible friend! Magical, invisible friend! All the grown-ups have one!
    [Ask yourselves, believers: If a conservative, Republican judge (appointed by Bush) officially ruled that Intelligent Design was not science, shouldn’t the filmmakers had mentioned that fact, just to be informative on the central topic of their documentary? And by not mentioning this important, highly relevant fact, weren’t they being dishonest?]

  • There is nothing scientific about the theory of Intelligent Design. One principle of this theory is that if something is complex then it must be designed. However, if something is simple it can also be designed.

    Removing components from something; that is proposed as being design; when does it no longer become complicated or no longer what it appears to be?

    To be a science, something has to be proven to be scientific. There is no scientific method that can be used to determine if something is complex, let alone, designed. Thus Intelligent Design has been rejected on scientific grounds.

    We have heard the argument that students should be able to be critical of the theory of evolution. This a weak argument. Students should be taught the skill to be critical of certain ideas and philosophies, but must have also develop the problem solving skills needed for science and mathematics.
    Science is quest of knowledge and understanding of the natural and physical world. This quest has continued. 150 years after Darwin had presented his theory more knowledge has been presented to enhance and revise the theory of evolution.

    Expelled is an intellectually dishonest movie. In reality Expelled is that it is attack on education. Stein has to admit that ID is a reasonable philosophy, when it is not pretending to be a science.

  • thanky, thanky, thanky…to a slightly edusahted amigo in AT lanta, who sent dis info thew me over dis con…put…er thang…thanky, praize de lard, praize de lard…sum of us rural sudderners would not be here not be fer de lard, praize dem lard biscuts…slamp on a heapin of fake sceinetic butter, oleo, oleo…um good jus lik at HOP in Huntsville TX yis turd day…good ole fake butter…me, myself, I like that bull butter, it spreads sew thick on dem busicits, en got a whole bunch of testoraonig stuff…make them muscles stand out…dont need no Voxiatn, viagra or what ever dem ole Ben Stein uses….try bull butter, it cum from a one tit cow…got thew git them eduscahted con..put…er prog…ram hers…to milk dat one tit cow…she does kick a hwole bunch….

    who needs logic when we have stein…
    who needs analyical reason when we have hilter,

    pur ole me, eye think eye wil jus follow Jesus the Vaquero thru the Sonora Desert in seach of lost sheep upon that Spanish Mustang…..yippy tie dem ohs…..

    MAY 1st….BE LIKE JESUS…
    Jesus had no GED…
    Jesus had no home insurance…
    Jesus had no life insurance…
    Jesus had no car insurance…
    Jesus had no phD…
    ………….if you dont follow Jesus….and be like Jesus…you gonna rot in hell…..
    wait…did I just see that preacher get out of a hummer and head into that Pentecostal Church….what!!!!!

  • Science doesn’t lead to Fascism. It’s Fascism that abuses and uses science to manipulate, deceive, and brainwash the masses. Stein is right about Evolution being a farce…and it is…but it’s not science…it’s a religion that has become ridiculously Fascist.

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