Conservatives, campaigns, and creationism … oh my (redux)

USA Today had an interesting item on a topic that has generated a surprising amount of attention in two separate Republican presidential debates: modern biology.

Kansas Sen. Sam Brownback and former Arkansas governor Mike Huckabee, a Baptist minister, have been explaining their positions ever since they and Colorado Rep. Tom Tancredo first indicated in a May 3 debate that they do not believe in evolution. Their religious views, they say, are compatible with science.

“I think science is marvelous and wonderful, and I enjoy the benefit of it every day,” Huckabee told reporters Wednesday at a lunch. He said he embraces Scripture, but “to me, it’s not a conflict with science.” […]

Democratic strategist Mark Mellman, Kerry’s 2004 pollster who is not affiliated with a current candidate, said they make their party look like “a front for the Flat Earth Society.”

The image could cause serious damage with “swing voters who are culturally progressive,” Mellman said — “not because evolution is their most important issue but because it says something significant about their cultural orientation. They aren’t interested in rational scientific explanation and discourse.”

That last point seems like the key to the discussion over the last few weeks. For a presidential candidate, in 2007, to concede disbelief in the cornerstone of modern biology doesn’t reflect well on their understanding of facts and evidence. If they reject the overwhelming proof on evolutionary biology, how will they deal with evidence of global warming? Or stem-cell research? Or a public health emergency? Or any public policy that deals with science?

On Tuesday, when Wolf Blitzer raised the subject, Mike Huckabee said, “It’s interesting that that question would even be asked of somebody running for president. I’m not planning on writing the curriculum for an eighth-grade science book. I’m asking for the opportunity to be president of the United States.” Which is why I think Mellman was right about the underlying point. Do the candidates care about reason?

Oddly enough, though the Republican candidates seem a little annoyed by the interest, both the reality-based community and their rivals on the right seem to be interested in the responses.

“Most of us don’t think that we’re just apes with trousers,” said Gary Bauer, a Christian conservative who ran for president in 2000. He said Huckabee and Brownback have been “refreshing” on the subject. He also said that, while a president doesn’t have direct influence on curriculum, the discussion is “an interesting marker on worldviews.”

Lawrence Krauss, a scientist at Case Western Reserve University in Cleveland, said it is a warning flag. He said a president “who denies something at the basis of modern biology” would not be a credible leader on education or economic growth driven by biotechnology, would hobble scientific research and would lack international stature.

My biggest concern, of course, is that Mellman is wrong about the creationists making the GOP look like “a front for the Flat Earth Society.” The latest polls are discouraging.

Majorities of Americans in a new USA TODAY/Gallup Poll say evolution and creationism are both likely explanations for life on Earth — underscoring the complexities of an issue that has put Republican presidential candidates on the spot in recent weeks.

Two-thirds in the poll said creationism, the idea that God created humans in their present form within the past 10,000 years, is definitely or probably true. More than half, 53%, said evolution, the idea that humans evolved from less advanced life forms over millions of years, is definitely or probably true. All told, 25% say that both creationism and evolution are definitely or probably true.

I tried to wrap my head around these results, hoping to make heads of tails of public opinion, but quickly gave up.

I like to think Mellman is right, and “swing voters who are culturally progressive” would look askance at a candidate who still doesn’t believe in evolution, but those polls give me pause.

As a progressive Christian who has a fair understanding of biological evolution, these folks creep me out.

  • There are a number of possible explanations for the polls, none of them terribly flattering to the American electorate.

    One, it may show how poor science education is and has been here for some time in that 25% of the public really don’t understand why their answers are problematic. On a related note, it may mean Introduction to Logic and Reasoning should be a mandatory part of all high school programs.

    Two, it may show the massive internalization of politics into our personal psyches. In answering poll questions, the respondants may be unwilling to give an answer, even anonymously, that would upset a vocal interest group, and so they hedge or pander.

    Or, three (and I suppose the least troubling possibility) is that the rough 25% giving overlapping nonsensical answers is the exact same 25% still supporting Bush and the other 75% are rapidly, shall we say, evolving.

  • “I think science is marvelous and wonderful, and I enjoy the benefit of it every day,” Huckabee told reporters Wednesday at a lunch. He said he embraces Scripture, but “to me, it’s not a conflict with science.” […]

    Aaaaaack!

    It is. According to scripture, being of Asian descent I’m not supposed to exist. There was no mention of any Asian lands outside of the middle east in the bible (especially the two big ones China and India.)

    For me this highlights a serious neurosis among them. They can’t reconsile the science with their beliefs and want to ban the study of it yet they want the benefits they provide.

    We are discovering that our thought patterns are not isolated to a certain thing and thus what do they do when something unpleasant or unexpected happens? Does this mean they can’t deal with it or transgress into some fantasy world? It seems that way to me.

  • “They aren’t interested in rational scientific explanation and discourse.”

    Which basically leads to an end of any civilized discourse, and compromise. These people simply make decisions based upon their beliefs/feelings and not on fact or cause/effect or any other rational basis. There is no arguing with these folks, because they do not argue in a fact-based realm. They are not moved or pursuaded by all the facts and analysis in the world–they refuse to be pursuaded. Their beliefs rule everything and that eliminates any middle ground. It is all black and white, good and evil.

    Which is one very big reason why we are where we we are (deep doodoo) today.

  • 1/2 the country think what’s in the bible is true. I’m not one of them, and wouldn’t vote for anyone who thinks the world is only a couple thousand years old.

  • I want to comment on this bit of Carpetbagger’s language in discussing the views of the Republican candidates on evolution. We should never talk about “disbelief” in evolution. That relegates it to the realm of mythologiy, where non-sciences such as religion and astrology belong. It is better to say that those who do not accept the basic scientific underpinning of biology are “rejecting” or “denying” it. Evolution is a fact. And like gravity, it is not something to believe in or not believe in. The words we use are extremely important.

  • The real problem for me goes well beyond the issue of science and evolution. I have no problem with someone who wants to take the Bible literally, but I do have a problem with someone who has that literal belief who then wants to incorporate those beliefs in his or her leadership of a nation of people whose religious views are very diverse, and whose government is built on keeping religious issues and beliefs separate from the decisions that government makes for all of the people.

    In my view, I think we need people with morals and ethics, but we make a huge mistake when we assume that religion has to be the basis for that. I am afraid of the candidate who is so sure that his or her religion trumps the religions of the rest of the country, that he or she will attempt to make those views the basis for foreign and domestic policy decisions that the rest of us will be forced to live by.

  • I think the Democrats are going to get into big trouble if they push this too far.

    For example:

    Wolf Blitzer: Everyone up here is a Christian so raise your hand if you believe that Christ was crucified and raised from the dead.

    Candidates: Everyone raises their hand

    Blitzer: How can you reconcile your belief with modern science which has absolutely zero evidence to support the main claim of Christianity?

    Candidates : ?????????????

    I realize that most people on this website are basically atheists but a huge portion of this country believes in SOME of the miricles in the Bible.

    If you are saying that in order to be a reasonable candidate that you must state the all reliigion is BS then your reasonable candidates are going to lose.

  • Great point, CB.

    Although my view of the world differs from most people who call themselves atheists, and most religious people’s, natural selection is a cornerstone I turn to again and again to think about so much about humanity, from politics to history to psychology and philosophy.

    I’d be totally lost without it.

  • What Bothered Buffalonian said. CB falls right into the creationists’ trap. One either “believes” the creation myth or one does not (there is no evidence for it).

    Evolution, on the other hand, is a question of whether one understands the theory, or one does not. Evolution happens to be one of the most thoroughly tested theories of all time. Nobody has been able to disprove it (and not for lack of trying, either).

  • Many of the most important challenges of the next 50 years will require the ability to be comfortable understanding and evaluating and complex data, often presented mathematically, and subtle physical and biological processes described by science. We need candidates who can get science briefings and ask insightful and incisive questions in order to make proper policy. And some of those policy decisions will literally change the world.

    If they were only running for a job authoring 8th-grade textbooks, it wouldn’t be nearly so important that they understand science.

    We can’t continue treating science and math as things only nerds understand. Our society and technology is too complex. We can’t just tune out and say “gosh, isn’t science wonderful!” It’s bad enough that the bulk of the populace has such weak skills; we at the very least must demand that the people in power do better.

  • “Most of us don’t think that we’re just apes with trousers,”

    If by “Us” he means fellow Talevangicals, the last six words of his sentence are superfulous.

    Of beasts, it is confessed, the ape
    Comes nearest us in human shape;
    Like man, he imitates each fashion,
    And malice is his ruling passion:
    But, both in malice and grimaces,
    A courtier any ape surpasses.

    -J. Swift. (Of course)

  • Two-thirds in the poll said creationism, the idea that God created humans in their present form within the past 10,000 years, is definitely or probably true. More than half, 53%, said evolution, the idea that humans evolved from less advanced life forms over millions of years, is definitely or probably true. All told, 25% say that both creationism and evolution are definitely or probably true.

    There are several quotes that come immediately to mind here. The first is from H.L. Mencken, written in 1924, during the first public manifestation of modern furndamentalism, the “Scopes Monkey Trial”:

    “Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.”

    The second is from Mark Twain:

    “Man is the religious animal. He is the only religious animal. He is the only animal that has the True Religion — several of them. He is the only animal that loves his neighbor as himself and cuts his throat, if his theology isn’t straight. He has made a graveyard of the globe in trying his honest best to smooth his brother’s path to happiness and heaven.”

    The thrid is from Bertrand Russell:

    “If I were to suggest that between the Earth and Mars there is a china teapot revolving about the sun in an elliptical orbit, nobody would be able to disprove my assertion provided I were careful to add that the teapot is too small to be revealed even by our most powerful telescopes. But if I
    were to go on to say that, since my assertion cannot be disproved, it is intolerable presumption on the part of human reason to doubt it, I should rightly be thought to be talking nonsense. If, however, the existence of such a teapot were affirmed in ancient books, taught as the sacred
    truth every Sunday, and instilled into the minds of children at school, hesitation to believe in its existence would become a mark of eccentricity and entitle the doubter to the attentions of the psychiatrist in an enlightened age or of the Inquisitor in an earlier time.”

    And then Clarence Darrow, spoken to William Jennings Bryan at the Scopes Trial:

    “We have the purpose of preventing bigots and ignoramuses from controlling the education of the United States.”

    And finally, Thomas Brackett Reed, creator of the modern Speakership in the House of Representatives, of his fellow Republicans:

    ”They never open their mouths without subtracting from the sum of human
    knowledge.”

    And ending with Mencken again:

    ”In this world of sin and sorrow there is always something to be thankful for; as for me, I rejoice that I am not a Republican.”

  • On the glass-half-full side, isn’t this one of the first polls to show a majority of Americans accepting evolution? I guess that’s progress. *sigh*

  • rick @ #6…
    i too would never vote for someone who thinks the world is only a couple of thousand years old.
    but more than how old the earth is, i’m a lot more concerned with the knuckleheads who think the rapture is right around the corner — and are doing all they can to hasten it!

  • Most people do not even know what evolution is beyond the phrase “Man descended from apes”. That’s it. Evolution was not taught in my High School but merely mentioned. When politicians start saying the scientists could be wrong without ever having studied what they’ve said yet can quickly accept what cannot be proven but must be accepted on faith shows the willingness to reject reason when it contradicts belief. Katrina cannot be “disproved” as God’s vengeance but the absurdness of such an explanation in regard to scientific study “should” be obvious. The same is true as regards evolution. Evolution does not deny a creator it is merely a study of the progress of life. It just is. Like “fossil” fuel. It can’t be ignored just because it doesn’t fit some long held belief.
    We are dealing with scientifically important issues that impact us seriously with global warming and its effects. We need a curriculum heavy on science to deal with modern issues which doesn’t need to be compromised by the insertion of non scientific faith based modes of operation which keeps us in the dark.
    Politically this issue is important as a measure of how willing a president would be to listen to reason or how reasonable an opinion is. The difference between reading the book or just memorizing the title.
    The modern Republican party lives in partial reality, ignoring those parts of themselves that don’t reasonably fit with the image they think they are supposed to present. They are indeed the Party of Hypocrisy.

  • When will these people get it? Jesus dying on the cross and or being resurrected doesn’t have a damn thing to do with the price of gas or how long it took a dinosaur to evolve into a bird.
    Why create arguments about things that don’t even relate?
    That’s why there’s a separation of church and state. Keep reason and science in the schools, and faith based issues in the churches.
    God created man in his image by speeding up the evolutionary process till it produced the effect He wanted. And that took…almost a day…24hrs..(“let’s see…if eternity is an hour then a day would be..wait that’s not right…a day times 6 is…wait).
    The arguments are just stupid like, “can God make a rock so big the he himself cannot lift it”. I mean really. Say whatever you believe in Church, In science just say what you can prove or observe.
    and neil…***Not believing in your brand of Christianity does not make one an atheist nor does understanding evolution.

  • The problem isn’t just lack of science education, it’s also lack of rudimentary religious education. You won’t find many seminary trained, main line clergy who don’t accept the truth of evolution, because they’ve actually read the Bible. When you actually read it, it is obviously a mythic work trying to convey the deeper meaning behind creation, and our relationship to it. It is NOT even trying to be a scientific account of what happened one iota. The sky is blue because it’s water held back by a firmament??? Come on!!!!! Don’t afraid of religious education, it’s religious indoctrination we need to fear, and lack of education makes indoctrination more likely to happen.

  • Re #3, I think that would be a hilarious question to ask a Republican candidate during a debate.

    “Senator, given the views you’ve expressed, could you explain the presence of all these Asian people who were never mentioned in the Bible?”

    I get a huge giggle-fit just thinking about it. 🙂

  • Senator Sam Brownback’s voting record on science and medical research issues can be found at: Senator Sam Brownback’s Voting Record

    Senator Sam Brownback’s history of speeches on evolution can be found at: Senator Sam Brownback’s Record of Speeches

    Senator Sam Brownback’s ratings from special interest groups on science and medial research issues can be found at: Senator Sam Brownback’s Interest Group Ratings

    Governor Mike Huckabee’s history of speeches on evolution can be found at: Governnor Mike Huckabee’s Record of Speeches

    Project Vote Smart produces the National Political Awareness Test (NPAT), which essentially asks each candidate “Are you willing to tell citizens your positions on the issues you will most likely face on their behalf?” You can find Governor Mike Huckabee’s responses to the NPAT at: Governor Mike Huckabee’s NPAT

    For more information on Senator Sam Brownback’s and Governor Mike Huckabee’s positions on science and medical research issues please visit Project Vote Smart or call our hotline at 1-888-VOTE-SMART.

  • Babies and bath water.

    God is a black box with ‘Don’t know’ written on it. If you can’t, or don’t want to be bothered, finding an answer for something, you put it in the God box. It is an easy and convenient solution. Of course, it doesn’t actually solve anything, but it gives the impression of tidiness.

    Evolution grapples with facts and evidence, and supports all the developments in biological and medical science we have come to rely on and take for granted. It doesn’t, however, of itself, answer the fundamental question of the origin of the universe. Sakyamuni Buddha famously said “I wish I didn’t have to answer that question.” Of course, he did, but you need ten lifetimes of meditation and contemplation of abhidharma to understand it. Simply put, time is beginningless (if you postulate a beginning, you still have to answer the question of what was happening before that beginning); matter exists in dependence on mind, which is luminous and aware; all phenomena are impermanent and empty of inherent existence. Biological evolution, therefore, is a collection of laws describing and defining the nature of that impermanence with regard to organic forms, i.e. how they change over time. Like all science, it deals with relative phenomena and interactions within a predetermined time span, even if that extends to millions of years.

    Evolution has nothing to say about the ultimate nature of mind. Nor has God.

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