Dems balk at torture, with one exception

At last night’s debate, Tim Russert noted that a Meet the Press guest posed this scenario: “We get lucky. We get the number three guy in Al Qaida. We know there’s a big bomb going off in America in three days and we know this guy knows where it is. Don’t we have the right and responsibility to beat it out of him? You could set up a law where the president could make a finding or could guarantee a pardon.”

He posed the question to Obama, who immediately ruled out sanctioning torture. “[W]hat we cannot do is have the president of the United States state, as a matter of policy, that there is a loophole or an exception where we would sanction torture,” he said. “I think that diminishes us and it sends the wrong message to the world.”

Russert turned to Biden, who agreed. Citing the judgment of 17 three- and four-star generals, Biden said, “It doesn’t work. It should be no part of our policy ever — ever.”

Then the question went to Clinton.

CLINTON: You know, Tim, I agree with what Joe and Barack have said. As a matter of policy it cannot be American policy period. I met with those same three- and four-star retired generals, and their principal point — in addition to the values that are so important for our country to exhibit — is that there is very little evidence that it works.

CLINTON: Now, there are a lot of other things that we need to be doing that I wish we were: better intelligence; making, you know, our country better respected around the world; working to have more allies. But these hypotheticals are very dangerous because they open a great big hole in what should be an attitude that our country and our president takes toward the appropriate treatment of everyone. And I think it’s dangerous to go down this path.

RUSSERT: The guest who laid out this scenario for me with that proposed solution was William Jefferson Clinton last year. So he disagrees with you.

CLINTON: Well, he’s not standing here right now. (APPLAUSE)

RUSSERT: So there is a disagreement?

CLINTON: Well, I’ll talk to him later. (LAUGHTER)

It was an encouraging moment for the whole field. At a GOP debate, given the same hypothetical, some of the candidates probably would have volunteered to do the torturing personally, but the Dems stuck to principle. Good.

There’s some question, though, about whether Clinton’s answer may become controversial.

The New York Daily News reported today that the paper’s editorial board posed a similar question to Clinton less than a year ago.

Last October, Clinton told the Daily News: “If we’re going to be preparing for the kind of improbable but possible eventuality, then it has to be done within the rule of law.”

She said then the “ticking time bomb” scenario represents a narrow exception to her opposition to torture as morally wrong, ineffective and dangerous to American soldiers.

“In the event we were ever confronted with having to interrogate a detainee with knowledge of an imminent threat to millions of Americans, then the decision to depart from standard international practices must be made by the President, and the President must be held accountable,” she said.

Clinton’s campaign did not immediately respond to numerous requests for comment on the eye-popping contradiction.

I’m not sure that I’d characterize it as an “eye-popping contradiction” — it’s an issue with some nuances — but this does pose a potential problem for the Democratic frontrunner. If she used to support some kind of ticking-bomb exception to U.S. policy on torture, and now she doesn’t, it’s incumbent on the Clinton campaign to explain how the senator’s position has evolved.

Occasionally, the key story after a debate isn’t apparent until the day after. If Clinton is perceived as trying to play both sides of the torture debate, it could become a distraction — and an opportunity for her rivals.

Keep an eye on this one. The sooner the Clinton campaign nips this in the bud, the better.

I was struck immediately that she did not answer definitively “no” to the question that Russert posed directly to her: Should there be a presidential exception to allow torture in that kind of situation?

  • I’m not a big fan of Clinton but my first impression on reading this is to give her a pass. The ticking bomb scenario is a hypothetical situation which might appear in every season of 24 but not in reality. On the surface I could see the tendency to respond to allowing torture under such a situation until it is thought out more. This might be a case of her having given more thought to such questions over the past year as she prepared to run.

    There are many situations where I’m not concerned about someone changing their mind over time. A response to a hypothetical situation such as this is one case where I’m not bothered by such a change.

  • There’s no contradiction. She said it can’t be American policy. Previously she said that if the case arises where breaking the policy is necessary, only the president can make that decision and must be held accountable for it. What’s the problem?

    Look. Both primary campaigns are over. Our focus now should be on helping Clinton beat Romney in the general.

  • I think that those who would make controversy over her two answers are overanalyzing — and in fact are probably penalizing her for having a detailed grasp rather than the more superficial grasp of someone with the limited experience of, say, Edwards.

    In that ticking time bomb situation (or, to use something closer to what has already happened – a large jet with a hundred innocent Americans hijacked and heading for a metro area), the President will always have a set of choices that run from bad to worse, and the President will be in a position to make exception to law: in the normal course, it would be illegal to shoot down a plane full of innocent Americans. HRC is correct in her current answer in recognizing that torture generally doesn’t work, and that should be the guiding principle. She is also correct in her prior answer that (a) in that scenario the President will have to take everything into consideration and will be in a position to “depart” from norms and (b) a President who does so will (she was a little optimistic – lets say “should”) be held accountable for that decision, whichever way it goes and whatever the resulting outcome.

    I dont even see an inconsistency there, much less a scandal. If people want an HRC scandal today, it doesn’t require twisting and reaching — her vote on Kyl-Lieberman is right out there and unambiguous.

    By the way, I know neither Clinton gets a lot of love here, but anyone who doubts that Bill has more political skill than all of the present candidates combined need only look at how well he responded to the MoveOn non-issue. He couldn’t be more correct on this – every single prominent Democrat should have to learn to do this.

  • If Clinton is perceived as trying to play both sides of the torture debate, it could become a distraction? She play’s both side of EVERY issue. I’ll bring the troops home, unless I don’t. I’ll end the war except for the troops I leave there. Come on people.

  • Although it should not be a policy to torture, especially given that experts say that reliable information does not come out of torture, we should not rule out using every available option in a true emergency.

  • Come on, folks. Torture is one of the absolute prohibitions of the Geneva Conventions, a war crime, to which the US is a signatory. Under our Constitution, a treaty is the law of the land. We already have one president who’s flagrantly flouted countless international laws by authorizing torture. Do we want to elect others who will do that, too?

    I sure don’t. And those candidates who get sucked into “hypothetical” situation questions shouldn’t be falling for them. The correct answer is a resounding NO, no official of the US is allowed to authorize torture. If US citizens want that, and I don’t, the US had better officially opt out of the Geneva Conventions, and then watch what happens to captured US military forces in legitimate wars.

  • This conversation is retarded.

    Does anyone think the #1 Al Qaida operative is going to give up the “bomb” location when hundreds of American lives are at stake ??

    These guys are devoted, only Americans can think like that. I bet the question is never raised in Al Qaida circles because the laughter would be long and hard.

  • Look. Both primary campaigns are over. Our focus now should be on helping Clinton beat Romney in the general.

    Romney? Giuliani just wiped out all but 1 point of a 14-point Romney lead in New Hampshire — in a month.

  • Swan, I do not believe that she answered the question, Should there be a presidential exception to allow torture in that kind of situation? Is that not a yes-no question? Are we parsing semantics now to defend poor widdle Hillary?

    As far as I’m concerned, NO, the United States should NOT condone torture, under any circumstance, period. Unfortunately, Hillary’s response was not as unequivocal.

  • Real, skilled interrogators know how to get information out of people and the knee-jerk responses to initiate torture or the signs of true amateurs who don’t know what they’re doing and how they would respond in a panicked situation. Torture is really good at scaring the crap out of the innocent and producing misinformation, but does threatening to harm people who are on suicide missions really work?

    I’m waiting for the candidate to answer this question saying that torture is the satisfying answer to people who don’t know what they’re doing, but real pros know that it ultimately doesn’t work. And how come for rabid psuedo-religious right wingers asking “what would Jesus do?” not shut down their desire to beat the crap out of somebody and put out cigarettes on their arms?

  • If she used to support some kind of ticking-bomb exception to U.S. policy on torture, and now she doesn’t, it’s incumbent on the Clinton campaign to explain how the senator’s position has evolved.

    Is it? If that was the standard we held candidates to every time they flip-flopped then all the Republicans would die of exhaustion trying to address each and every incident.

  • Romney?

    Yes. Steve M. Romney is the nominee. The game is already over. He’s got too many advantages, not the least of which is money. He’s also got an attractive, age-appropriate first and only wife, good looks and a blissfully short resume. Giuliani doesn’t have a prayer. He may have made up ground in a poll, but he’s not winning, and he won’t win.

  • Look. Both primary campaigns are over. -Haik Bedrosian

    Wow, I must’ve slept until February. Thanks for filling me in.

    I guess you’re just basing that assumption on the fact that every candidate leading a primary in September the year before the general election has won without fail. Just ask Dean.

    The only acceptable answer from an American on torture is an emphatic ‘no,’ and the only reason needed is that torture is contrary to American principles and values.

    If one has to delve into reasons like ‘It doesn’t work,’ they’ve already lost the ideological battle.

    We’re better than torture. We’re Americans.

  • It’s only controversial if Hillary is required to govern as he husband would. This helps her in the final analysis, I think, because it’s a case where she can lay to rest the inevitable question of who will be President: She will. As Clinton said, you get two for the price of one, but as in Clinton’s term, she has shown, it will now be her in charge.

  • On the ticking bomb scenario: that has been used as the sacrosanct case for why we must have the right to torture in reserves. Of all the people tortured since accepting this rationale, how many had the location of a ticking bomb, and how many gave up the information?

    In many of these cases, they people getting tortured were retarded, mentally ill, or hardly suspected of anything at — or merely related to someone who might know something, based on an anonymous tip, or getting picked up in the wrong part of the neighborhood, or out past curfew.

  • “We get lucky. We get the number three guy in Al Qaida. We know there’s a big bomb going off in America in three days and we know this guy knows where it is.”

    When has any country in the history of our planet ever have to deal with this scenario?

    It seems that this line of questioning is only used to justify torture, not present a likely scenario and all possible options.

    You might as well ask “If Godzilla came out of the Pacific and began to destroy Seattle, would you advocate the use of nuclear weapons on American soil to stop him?”

  • If one has to delve into reasons like ‘It doesn’t work,’ they’ve already lost the ideological battle.#17.

    I totally agree with this. Torture is morally wrong. That’s all you need to win any debate over its use.

  • 2Manchu sez:
    “You might as well ask “If Godzilla came out of the Pacific and began to destroy Seattle, would you advocate the use of nuclear weapons on American soil to stop him?””

    Amen. Why even answer this moronic question?

  • The difference between us and the terrorists is that when we attach alligator clips to a man’s balls, we don’t flip the switch.

    Aaaamericaaaa, the beautifuuuuul,

    God shed his grace on theeeeee

  • That she is even trying to “nuance” this policy is itself disturbing. Biden and Obama had the right answers. Clinton tried to thread a needle and satisfy the crazies on the right who watch too much “24”, and I think Clinton failed.

  • It kind of makes me wonder. . . there is a certain pitfall candidates who lead in September before the caucuses tend to fall into. I wonder if HRC has been reading her own press clippings this week about her growing and in some cases huge leads in the polls, and decided she could (and should) start tacking back to the right in a general election strategy. That sort of complacency about the primary cycle always has consequences – it is probably the fastest way for her to lose her lead.

  • Hillary lost my primary vote, not that I was leaning her way anyway, when she voted for Kyl-Leiberman yesterday. And then she cackled! Cackled at Gravel when he questioned her about it. I found that callous, insincere and disgusting. The man brought up a point she must address on a very serious issue, and she cackled. I guess to show that he was the daft crazy person for even bringing it up. I can see the adds against her now, in the eventuality we do start a war with Iran. Her vote on the issue, her speeking to AIPAC and then her laughter when questioned about it. All the while we’ll see a mushroom cloud over Natanz or Teheran.I can see something like 70% of the population refusing to vote for either her or a repug in that scenario. Which would be the perfect time for a 3rd party President Gore to step into the ring. Since Hills is a bloodthirsty and unconscionable as her Rethuglican rivals.

    Her torture response just added to my vehemence.

  • Let me just add, Chris Wallace is a complete tool of the reich-wing, often laughing at him is the only appropriate response. She carried it too far on Sunday, not every question she was asked deserved it. Jon Stewart did a great mash-up.

    And Mike Gravel is no tool of the far right. When he makes an accusation, or anyone else on the Dem side, it deserves a measured answer. Seriously, we already have a President who chuckles and chortles and guffaws at totally innappropriate times, do we seriously want another whos response to a difficult question elicits a similar response.

    God, I hope Haik is wrong in who the eventual candidates will be. I fear he is right.

  • Seriously, we already have a President who chuckles and chortles and guffaws at totally innappropriate times, do we seriously want another whos response to a difficult question elicits a similar response. -Dee Loralei

    Quoted for absolutely, undeniable truth.

    God, I hope Haik is wrong in who the eventual candidates will be. I fear he is right.

    If he’s right, I’ll be exercising my democratic right not to vote for either one of them. Either results in total global war and I won’t be a part of it.

  • The “ticking bomb” scenerio is really dumb. I can’t believe this is the test for “serious” people. And, of course, the correct answer is that you don’t condone torture ever, but if the scenerio comes up and some potential Jack Bauer really thinks he needs to torture someone, he does it, saves the day, we put him on trial, and let a jury decide what happens. Or a military court. But in no case do we give a pre-emptive go-ahead on this. I mean, on what basis can you really say it’s justified? Should the FBI start hiring psychics? I don’t even want to ever trust the president with the decision, as we’ve already seen that President Bush just rubberstamps this kind of thing. They tell him it’s necessary and it’s impossible for him to know otherwise and it makes him feel tough and important to approve it.

    I don’t know about you, but if I knew that lives were at stake and torture really would work (two big if’s), I’d have no problem going to prison for doing it. But the whole scenerio is an embarrassment and really shouldn’t be asked in the first place. It’s just a worst-case scenerio designed to justify torture in all cases.

  • look at how well he responded to the MoveOn non-issue. He couldn’t be more correct on this – every single prominent Democrat should have to learn to do this.

    That is one awesome response. Thanks for posting the link zeitgeist.

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