Dick ‘Fourth Branch’ Cheney strikes again

July 31, 2007

We all had a good laugh last month when Dick Cheney’s office argued, in all sincerity, that the Vice President could ignore executive orders because he’s not part of the executive branch of government. Eventually, the Bush gang dropped the argument from their talking points, but not until they’d humiliated themselves.

Yesterday, CBS News’ Mark Knoller sat down with Cheney for a fairly long interview, which included this follow up to last month’s absurdities: (transcript via Nexis)

Q: There was an aide in your office who said that one of the reasons you weren’t abiding by that executive order was that you’re really not part of the executive branch. Do you have — are you part of the executive branch, sir?

CHENEY: Well, the job of the Vice President is an interesting one, because you’ve got a foot in both the executive and the legislative branch. Obviously, I’ve got an office in the West Wing of the White House, I’m an adviser of the President, I sit as a member of the National Security Council. At the same time, under the Constitution, I have legislative responsibilities. I’m actually paid by the Senate, not by the executive. I sit as the President of the Senate, as the presiding officer in the Senate. I cast tie-breaking votes in the Senate. So the Vice President is kind of a unique creature, if you will, in that you’ve got a foot in both branches.

Q: But you are principally a part of the executive branch, are you not?

CHENEY: Well, I suppose you could argue it either way. The fact is I do work in both branches. Under the Constitution, I’m assigned responsibilities in the legislative branch. Then the President obviously gives me responsibilities in the executive branch. And I perform both those functions, although I think it would be fair to say I spend more time on executive matters than legislative matters.

Keep in mind, as of June 28, Cheney reportedly rejected this whole approach, and said he disapproved of the fourth-branch argument. Indeed, the Office of the Vice President insisted over and over again in recent years that it’s entitled to certain liberties as part of the executive branch. Indeed, during the president’s recent colonoscopy, Cheney was the acting president — by virtue of his role in the executive branch.

Later in the interview, Cheney added that the executive order “makes it clear” that the Vice President is exempt — despite the fact the order says no such thing, and Cheney actually followed the order for a few years until he decided he didn’t want to anymore.

Honestly, at times, Cheney’s detachment from reality is almost pathological.

Other highlights from the interview:

On the Attorney General:

QUESTION: I want to discuss Iraq at some length with you, but I don’t want to rush you on that. So let me get a few other issues out of the way that we haven’t spoken with you about in a couple of months. Do you want Attorney General Gonzales to keep fighting to keep his job?

CHENEY: I do. I’m a big fan of Al’s.

QUESTION: Does he need to clarify his testimony?

CHENEY: I’m not going to get into the specifics of it. I think Al has done a good job under difficult circumstances. The debate between he and the Senate is something they’re going to have to resolve. But I think he has testified truthfully.

On his disagreement with the president on the Libby verdict:

QUESTION: We haven’t spoken to you in a hard-news interview since the verdict was rendered in the Scooter Libby case. Let me ask you, have you spoken to your former top aide since his verdict?

CHENEY: I have.

QUESTION: And can you tell us anything about that conversation?

CHENEY: I’ve seen him socially on a number of occasions.

QUESTION: Do you believe the commutation that President Bush gave Scooter Libby for his prison term was enough, or if you had been President, would you have granted a full pardon?

CHENEY: I thought the President handled it right. I supported his decision.

QUESTION: Did you disagree with the guilty verdict in the case?

CHENEY: I did.

QUESTION: Even though the President said he respects that verdict?

CHENEY: I still — you asked me if I disagreed with the verdict, and I did.

During his recent stint as acting president:

QUESTION: Did you take any presidential actions during that time?

CHENEY: No, I basically wrote a letter to my grandkids.

QUESTION: As acting President?

CHENEY: As acting President.

QUESTION: What did you say in that letter?

CHENEY: A souvenir for them to have down the road some day.

QUESTION: Were you tempted to take any actions during that period?

CHENEY: No, I was not.

I guess we dodged a bullet on that one.

Cheney’s fully in the executive branch, until he’s not. Then he’s fully part of the legislative, until such time that he’d rather be fully in the executive. He follows all laws and Presidential directives, unless he’d rather not, in which case he reserves the right to maintain they something they do not.

It’s pretty dizzying until you realize it’s the ranting gibberish of a madman. 5 year olds playing in the sandbox have a better grasp of the nature of rules.

  • …the Vice President is kind of a unique creature…

    Yes, very much like the Toxic Avenger was kind of a unique creature, except that he was a likeable character.

  • He’s enjoying this. He knows the Democrats don’t have the stones (or the votes) to impeach him and remove him from office, so he can say and do pretty much what he wants. At this the point, I don’t even want to rise to the bait.

  • It’s not “detachment from reality”. It’s wilful in-your-face lying.

    Of course he doesn’t want to “get into the specifics” of the Prosecutor Purge.

    Of course he “disagrees with the [Libby] verdict”.

    Of course he will claim “Executive Privilege”

    The question is, who is going to ask him the follow-up questions? He’s not afraid of being impeached, so why should he answer anything?

  • This straddling Executive and Legislative branches only stands to reason. He’s only part human. “Unique creature” indeed.

  • QUESTION: Did you take any presidential actions during that time?

    CHENEY: No, I basically wrote a letter to my grandkids.

    Dear Adolph and Eva,

    Grandpa is President now. You might want to keep this letter as a souvenir. It will remind you of the actions I took to make sure the Cheney line always has control over the Presidency. Adolph, I know you will look back on this time with fond memories. Now, in order to keep my actions secret, I will deny that I took any action in public. I expect you kids to keep your mouths shut too.

    Go F_ _ _ yourselves,

    Grandpa Dick

  • “Indeed, during the president’s recent colonoscopy, Cheney was the acting president — by virtue of his role in the executive branch.”

    I don’t think this is that valid a point: if Cheney and Bush were both disabled at the same time (we can only wish), Pelosi would be acting, and it’s surely not “by virtue of [her] role in the executive branch.”

    But this highlights the real problem with Cheney’s argument: while it’s not completely absurd to claim that he’s part of both branches, what is absurd is to claim that therefore, he doesn’t have to comply with the rules and stictures applicable to either. That’s where reality and common sense really disappear. By this same logic, since under some scenarios, Pelosi could have Executive duties, she doesn’t have to comply with any rules applicable to the Legislature – but can ignore any rules applicable to the Executive also. Neat, huh?

    Somehow I don’t think that Cheney and Co. would agree –

  • “Honestly, at times, Cheney’s detachment from reality is almost pathological.”

    What do you mean, “almost”? If this interview isn’t proof that he’s seriously delusional, completely detached from reality, and probably the most dangerous man ever turned loose in the halls of government, then words no longer have meaning.

  • “So the Vice President is kind of a unique creature, if you will…”

    Cardinal Richelieu meets Grima Wormtongue.

  • Pathological is definitely the right word. As in pathological liar. He says he supports the president’s decision to let stand the multiple felony convictions and huge fines of a man who Cheney considers totally innocent. How in HELL does that square up with Cheney’s image of the “straight talker”? The guy is hopelessly full of shit and he really doesn’t care who knows it. But the press keeps interviewing him and playing his lies to the masses without the proper laugh-track.

    CHENEY: I thought the President handled it right. I supported his decision.

    QUESTION: Did you disagree with the guilty verdict in the case?

    CHENEY: I did.

    QUESTION: Even though the President said he respects that verdict?

    CHENEY: I still — you asked me if I disagreed with the verdict, and I did.

    Our media sucks. When a guy can lie his ass off and they just let it go, it shows that they suck, they know they suck, and they don’t care that they suck.

  • Anyone else falling for the letter story ??

    There is no way in hell Dick Cheney wrote a letter to his grandkids when he was effectively President of the United States.

    I would not be surprised to find out he implemented some presidential directive pardoning the Vice President from all future prosecutions.

    So does Pelosi acting VP ??

  • YES! 2Manchu – yes, you have it. That is so perfect, classic: keeps the soverign weak and rules with an iron fist.

    I am continually astounded, impressed, floored with the quick and accurate wit here.

  • Wait – who does actually pay the VP’s salary? He says it’s the Legislative branch? Can we please see a pay stub?

  • QUESTION: Were you tempted to take any actions during that period?

    CHENEY: As you know, my battery was running down at the time and I didn’t feel up to much. I’ve since gotten that replaced and — let me just say to the rest of the world what I told my friend Senator Leahy…

  • How long, O Lord? How long must we be subjected to this man’s perfidy and the media’s inexcusable complacence? I thought he was supposed to die a long time ago. Is he a member of the undead?

  • Has anyone thought to ask him the reflexive of his absurd statement? i.e. If you have responsibilities in both areas why shouldn’t you be subject to BOTH sets of rules rather than neither?

  • The surprising thing about Cheney’s comments is the way they argue that the Vice President is actually a member of the Legislative branch! His only constitutional role is to sit in the Senate, and they sign his paycheck. So that whatever Executive duties he has are delegated by the President, not inherent. Which to me makes a sound argument that he is a legislative officer, and by giving him access to any information the President is automatically waiving executive privilege, just as he would if he were to give it to Nancy Pelosi as Speaker of the House.

    As noted by retr2327, succession to the Presidency is not a sign of executive branch membership. The offices in succession after the VP are the Speaker of the House and the President pro tempore of the Senate, both legislative, so it could be argued that, actually, the first place we look for Presidential replacement is the legislative, with the VP as first of three legislative branch positions in line.

    Granted, tradition has it different, but if we’re going to be debating new legal interpretations, it certainly is more plausible than than Cheney’s proposal of being ‘both and neither.’

  • I have to agree with biggerbox, the only constitutional duties that the VP have are to sit as President of the Senate and to be first in line in succession as needed. Since he is paid by the Legislative branch, he can be construed as being in that branch, I suppose. In either case the only way that Executive privilege can be invoked is if the theory that whatever the president says is executive privilege is (depending on the meaning is “is”, of course) executive privilege unless it can be shown that the VP is a member of the executive branch under the Constitution.

    Is there any scholarly or legal definition of the role of the VP that stands up to scrutiny and defines the VP’s standing? Almost everyone assumes he is part of the executive branch but bring no arguments to the table that can factually dispute what Cheney said about his office being a hybrid or not in either branch or possibly both. While Cheney cherry picks according to circumstance, he may have the constitutional privilege to do so.

    To simply say that he is “pathological” when he disputes that he is not fully in one or the other branch is not an answer to the question of whether he is in one or the other, both, or neither. I am not sure that question has been answered, especially given the history of the office.

    Recent VPs have assumed duties not outlined in the Constitution (since VPs seem to have only the two mentioned above, and one is very passive) but that seems to be at the bequest of the president or due to the president’s lack of objection. Theodore Roosevelt knew that he was in a dead end job, he was enjoying nature (since he had nothing else to do) when McKinley died and was then thrust into the office. Even LBJ was a non-entity until Kennedy was killed. Truman didn’t even know about the atomic bomb until he assumed the presidency while some of the cabinet members (who are clearly in the executive branch) did.

    While those incidents don’t define the status of the VP. they can be used as examples of the VP not being in the executive branch.

  • After over 200 years we can now claim that we don’t know anything about the Vice Presidency? That’s the supreme arrogance of this Administration that after all this time that the country has operated under the Constitution they have gotten us to question the very basics of our government. “There are no rules…” as the AGOG said.

    I agree with #9. He is part of both, (since when are any legislators present at WH staff meetings?) and he is subject to the rules of BOTH not NEITHER.

    Impeach them all!

  • “Which to me makes a sound argument that he is a legislative officer, and by giving him access to any information the President is automatically waiving executive privilege, just as he would if he were to give it to Nancy Pelosi as Speaker of the House.”

    I think Biggerbox raises a very interesting argument, and one which should get some further attention and analysis. The idea of having BushCo’s Executive privilege claims destroyed because he shared everything with Cheney, and Cheney himself insists he’s not fully in the Executive, is very attractive.

  • #22

    I like this argument as well. Hoist by his own petard would be a gratifying sight.

  • Do interviewers get questions approved beforehand or what. This guy didn’t push any questions to Cheney’s responses. Did Cheney have a gun on him or what?
    What I’d like to know is how he sits with Bush’s “Catastrophic Unitary Directive”? If Bush isn’t around I guess he gets all the same dictatorial powers. But he’s not a man who would abuse his powers in a catastrophe and would be up front and forthcoming in making his intentions public.

  • I don’t think this is that valid a point: if Cheney and Bush were both disabled at the same time (we can only wish), Pelosi would be acting, and it’s surely not “by virtue of [her] role in the executive branch.”

    It’s not so simple. To assume the office of Acting President, the Speaker of the House (or the President pro tempore of the Senate, next in line) must by law resign from Congress. In the event of foreseeably temporary incapacitation of both the President and Vice President, executive decision-making, if not authority, would fall on the Secretary of State as the next executive-branch officer in the chain. This is what happened, controversially, during the Reagan assassination attempt when Alexander Haig said he was in control until Vice President Bush’s plane arrived. Unfortunately, when Bush did arrive, he declined to invoke the 25th Amendment, and so legally Reagan remained in office although he was totally incapacitated for far longer than a nuclear war would last. In hindsight it was clear Bush erred. There must be never be legal uncertainty about who is the President at any time, and subsequently the 25th Amendment has been readily invoked when a President has a medical procedure requiring sedation.

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