Disgruntled Dems and a divided drive

It looks like the column of the day comes by way of the NYT’s Paul Krugman, at least with regard to the piece everyone is talking about. There are plenty of competing opinions out there, but I thought I’d add my two cents.

Krugman gets started arguing that Hillary Clinton got a raw deal on Friday over the Bobby Kennedy assassination remarks. I think Krugman’s right on this, and am already tired of the “controversy.” The Obama campaign has argued that Clinton apologized and that the political world should move on, which strikes me as an eminently good idea.

Krugman also argues that an issue-driven, substantive presidential campaign should give Barack Obama a considerable edge over John McCain. After noting in passing his concerns about Obama’s healthcare plan — the Times columnist has now criticized Obama’s healthcare proposal in 12 different print columns since February — Krugman argues that Obama’s agenda should be able to bring together disparate voting coalitions that will produce a victory in November. This sounds right to me, too.

But Krugman notes that campaigns “always involve emotions as well as issues,” and Obama “has a problem: many grass-roots Clinton supporters feel that she has received unfair, even grotesque treatment. And the lingering bitterness from the primary campaign could cost Mr. Obama the White House.”

So what should Mr. Obama and his supporters do?

Most immediately, they should realize that the continuing demonization of Mrs. Clinton serves nobody except Mr. McCain. One more trumped-up scandal won’t persuade the millions of voters who stuck with Mrs. Clinton despite incessant attacks on her character that she really was evil all along. But it might incline a few more of them to stay home in November.

It’s here where I think Krugman’s argument runs into a little trouble.

I don’t doubt for a moment that many Clinton supporters “feel that she has received unfair, even grotesque treatment.” In fact, I think those supporters are largely right and have every reason to be offended by some of what we’ve heard during the campaign.

Remember all the media scrutiny about Hillary Clinton’s laugh? And news articles from major news outlets about her cleavage? And Chris Matthews casually dismissing Clinton’s record and credentials as a sham, insisting she owes her success to her husband’s infidelity? It’s been both offensive and ridiculous, regardless of which candidate or party one prefers. You don’t need to support a Clinton rival to recognize she’s received plenty of unfair criticism (just as, I hope, you can be a Clinton supporter and recognize the absurdities of some of the criticism Obama has received on everything from his lapel pins to his bowling score to his former church pastor).

The problem, I think, is that it’s a little too easy to misidentify the source of the problem, and I think Krugman may have been a little too quick to mention “Obama and his supporters.” There’s a difference, and it’s important.

Have some Obama supporters been quick to denigrate Clinton? Absolutely. But I’m not sure it makes sense for Clinton supporters to help John McCain — either directly (by voting for him) or indirectly (by staying home) — because some Obama fans were intemperate towards their favored candidate. Obama and Clinton have had a few dust-ups between them, but nothing outrageous or even unusual in the midst of a competitive process.

Krugman mentioned a “lingering bitterness” among Clinton supporters. I think that’s understandable, in part — bitterness towards media outlets seems rational, and perhaps even bitterness towards individual Obama supporters who were impolite. But a large number of people are going to undermine their own political party — and their own country — out of spite? Obama deserves to be punished because a few of his fans can be rude and because Chris Matthews can be a jerk?

Krugman’s broader point is not without merit. All Dems, regardless of favored candidate, should reject the notion that other Dems are the enemy. For the Democratic candidate to win in November, the nominee is going to need plenty of support, which will no doubt have to include backers of rival Dems.

But this also has to be a two-way street. The Obama campaign isn’t demonizing the Clinton campaign, but some of his supporters might be. As the nominating fight wraps up, and Obama solidifies his role as the party leader and nominee, it obviously makes sense to start bringing factions back together. It’s just common sense that Obama will want Clinton backers behind him.

But I’m not sure if Clinton has been upholding her side of the bargain lately. Krugman wrote, “Mrs. Clinton needs to do her part: she needs to be careful not to act as a spoiler during what’s left of the primary, she needs to bow out gracefully if, as seems almost certain, Mr. Obama receives the nod, and she needs to campaign strongly for the nominee once the convention is over. She has said she’ll do that, and there’s no reason to believe that she doesn’t mean it.”

I’m not sure. Last week, Clinton traveled to Florida to tell Dems that the party’s nominating process is not only illegitimate, but reminiscent of slavery, Jim Crow, and Zimbabwe. The message was divisive, misleading, and hypocritical. As Ezra, hardly an Obama cheerleader, put it, “As a message, it’s a mixture of toxic lies and scorched earth campaigning. It doesn’t help her win the nomination, but it makes the nomination worth a little bit less for the likely nominee…. She shouldn’t leave the race. But she should stop using her presence in it to rip apart the party and try to push major states out of Obama’s column.”

Precisely. In fact, it ties into Krugman’s concerns — Clinton says something irresponsible and damaging to the party … Obama supporters criticize Clinton … Clinton supporters get offended and push back … Obama supporters respond in kind. It’s not a helpful cycle, and it’s a lot easier to put fires out when Clinton doesn’t play with matches.

At the risk of sounding all Kumbaya, Dems can just get along. Supporters of both Clinton and Obama want the country to go in the same direction, and see the Democratic Party as the vehicle to get us there. Krugman was right to criticize Obama backers in February when a few too many said they wouldn’t support the party unless he were the nominee. Now, some Clinton supporters are saying the same thing (Krugman, for reasons I don’t understand, isn’t critical of them at all) and they’re wrong, too.

It’s the Media not Obama or supporters

Pant suits, the laugh, etc… was done by the media
(Dems should be attacking them for allowing such fake journalisim)

Why is Obama to blame for hatred and sexism?

  • What the liberal community needs now is an economist who offers reasonable solutions to supply side disasters. It’s too bad Krugman would rather be just another political pundit.

  • Krugman’s watching his Cabinet-level post, head of CCEA, perhaps Treasury itself — sink slowly in the west, and he’s not happy.

  • I largely eliminated attacks on Clinton about a month ago. I have completely stopped referring to Billary or the Clintonistas. It has seemed like a one way street for Obama supporters.

    Hillary has gotten bad treatment by the media. So has Obama. Trying to compare one to the other is at the point of pointlessness. Way too easy for supporters of one or other to try to out complain the others.

    It is also time for the Clintons and their supporters to reel it in.

    If not, I will return to the question I asked in mid March: Is the objective of the Clintons to destroy Obama so that she can run again in 2012?

    Yes, the party needs unity. It is time for Clinton supporters to move in that direction. I am willing to abide by a truce, for now. In anything other than a fantasy world, Clinton can NOT get the nomination in a manner that will be accepted as legitimate by other than her hard core supporters. Time for reality!

  • Speaking of zany New York Times columnists, Greg Mitchell at the Huffington Post had a great name for David Brooks and Bill Kristol:

    “Brooks and Dumb.” (You don’t get it? I guess you don’t listen to country music.)

    CB, maybe you can use that line in your almost-regular Monday feature, “Making fun of Bill Kristol.

    Yes, some of Obama’s fans have been over-the-top abusive of Hillary. (Are you listening, Cubby?) And vice versa. But the press has always done more to inflate the phony issues than either candidate has.

    Look in the mirror, Mr. Krugman.

  • If Clinton continues beyond early June, it is a sign that she is out to destroy Obama. If she continues her threats to take it ‘to the convention’ for a delegate fight, it is a sign of all out war.

    If Clinton does not cease and desist by June 6th, I suggest that it will be time for all Obama supporters to declare all out war!

  • Steve, when you say “All Dems, regardless of favored candidate, should reject the notion that other Dems are the enemy,” I have to disagree. I consider members of the Democratic Leadership Council to be sell-outs at best, and traitors to Democratic party principles at worst. The Clintons are proud members of that group. I also think that Blue Dog Democrats (a lot of DLC overlap here) who vote with Publicans more often than with their own party – and vote almost always against the interests of middle-class, good working people of all persuasions, a la Ms. Clinton’s vote on the Bankruptcy Bill – need to be purged from the party.

    In fact, if prognostications are right and the Publican party is hovering on the edge of extinction, I fully expect the Democratic Party to break in two eventually, and the DLC branch will become the new Publicans. Either that, or some party rising on the left now will draw more and more of the progressive vote from the old Democratic Party, and we will have the same result.

    And BTW, any aging feminists who are willing to vote for McSame if their candidate can’t shrill her way into the nomination are already Publicans as far as I’m concerned.

  • It’s widely commented that Teddy Kennedy is the last lion of the Senate. They should make a song, or create some poetry. For me, the respect of the Kennedy’s has been there. But, this history and its results long exhausted falling short to often. However, as one looks back at the politics it was not only, not good enough, but compromised to the point of failure too much. Moving forward something is in the air and the electorate has shown America something unusual with the primary in California and Massachusetts. Here, the Kennedy’s supporting Barack Obama with generous grand standing and fan fair that Obama is of the JFK mold was shot to hell with the primary, and lost to Hillary Clinton in both states.

    The electorate voted for change at that moment and the media would not acknowledge any of it. To be sure Obama, Oprah, and the whole Kennedy family with close associates had to be devastated by the out come. It is way past curiosity that the Mainstream Media Journalist across the spectrum, conferenced with ranting biased all the while led by bonus benefits to avoid any such discussion that Hillary Clinton is the “Lioness of the Democratic party”. To be sure the lioness is much more powerful. If that divine spirit is bless to Hillary, it is with this characteristic the ancients of the Middle East will with respect look towards Hillary, the lioness to represent the most ferocious war deities and warriors, and one so powerful to ever be presented to the Western and Middle Eastern World.

    It has been recognized, however, as the pinnacle of hunting prowess from the earliest of human writings and graphic representations. The lionesses are the hunters for their pride and capture their prey with precise and complex teamwork. Each lioness develops specific skills for her role in the hunting techniques used by her pride and, generally, assumes that role during most hunts. The Lioness makes the kill. Kennedy can roar all he wants’; it looks like Hillary as the Lioness will get America the results needed.

    For me it is a good rule to play nice on the planet it is all we have left and if a country does not, as said by Hillary one may very loose a position to be a player. Though she said it some what hasher, the point is there.

    Hillary has what it takes to it.

  • Remember all those Red-Meat social conservatives who gnashed their teeth and swore up and down that they would vote for Hillary before they voted for McCain? Remember? Way back in, gosh the far away time of March?

    Heard from many of them lately?

    Yeah. That’s how many will Clinton supporters will vote for McCain over Obama. Just give people a couple of weeks to get over it.

    I voted for Clinton in the NY primary. I will gladly vote for Obama. Once the overheated primary rhetoric cools down, saner heads will prevail.

  • Think it was a slip? Same slip 4 times?
    Four days after ABC polled that 59% of Americans feared for Obama’s safety, Hillary started talking assassination.
    Hard to believe,
    but this site has the facts and sources: zFacts.com

  • I enjoy the Monday and Friday NYT in large part because of Paul Krugman, but I had to roll my eyes this morning. It sounded to me that Krugman, a Hillary supporter, is admitting that Obama is going to be the nominee but he has to get in a dig or two in the process. The column was disappointing to me and probably petty. It sounded like Krugman was saying, “I don’t carry a grudge but some people do and I agree with them.”

  • Stoft:

    The RFK remark came on the same day that CNN came out with the report (probably false) that the Clintons were trying a power play to get the VP nomination for Hillary.

    Why would she want to be VP (instead of the Senator from NY), unless she thought that something “unthinkable” might happen?

  • “…But she should stop using her presence in it to rip apart the party and try to push major states out of Obama’s column.”…”

    You see, that is the point. I didn’t see that at all. He makes much more out of it and her intentions and motivations than was there. Much more. So quick to jump her as if this was some major ordeal. It wasn’t. At best the only response it should have engendered should have been….”Hmmm”. But no, we get ‘she’s trying to rip the party apart and destroy Obama’.

    As a reluctant Obama supporter I have to ignore many of the Obama supporter’s comments and ask myself “what would Obama do or think about this” because many of his supporters aren’t representative of him and what he says he hopes to accomplish. But to both camps I say more important than Clinton or Obama in the WH is that it must be a Dem in the WH because far too much is at stake. We will not survive another 4yrs of republicanism or lifetime judicial appointments that result. It is yet to be determined if we have survived the past 7yrs because the damn is about to burst.

  • Krugman was right to criticize Obama backers in February when a few too many said they wouldn’t support the party unless he were the nominee. Now, some Clinton supporters are saying the same thing (Krugman, for reasons I don’t understand, isn’t critical of them at all) and they’re wrong, too. — CB

    Nice job, dnA, of finding and contrasting the quotes. There was one other instance of Krugman’s “evenhandedness” (not!), though I don’t think I can track it now. It was in one of those 12 columns where Krugman criticised Obama’s healthcare plan. He was carping about the cost of it and that Obama wasn’t saying where the money was coming from. At the same time, he discreetly didn’t mention (I found it from other sources) that Clinton’s plan would cost more and that she didn’t say where the money was to come from, either.

    I remember thinking, at the time, that an old Polish “saw” was very apt there: “if you want to hit a dog, you can always find a stick”. Krugman’s anti-Obama “arguments” seem, mostly, contrived. The dislike came first, the rationalization was added after, and trimmed to fit. So he’ll always cherry-pick the bits he wants to see and the ones he wants to ignore.

  • Hillary Clinton actively sought an endorsement from Richard Mellon Scaife. Bill Clinton appeared on the Rush Limbaugh show the day before the Texas primary and Rush has subsequently been a very active supporter of her campaign. When she wants support for her claim that she can win and Obama can’t, Hillary is quick to cite statements by Grover Norquist and Karl Rove. When Hillary stops allying with my enemies, I will stop considering her an enemy. At the moment, I’m more disgusted with her than I have ever been with a Democrat before.

  • Benen seems about right on target here — and thanks to Vic for a hopeful, and I hope also true prognosis.

    Steve1947, in contrast, says that those Democrats that he disagrees with “need to be purged from the party.” Sorry, purges really sound like bad 20th history to me, nor do they work in a democratic society: we need parties that are true coalitions of the willing, not purified cadres of some specific truth! I’m all for pushing for the transparency that will keep all elected Democrats from corruption of various sorts, and for pushing for accountability, and for pushing for the particular policy positions that I stand for — and Steve1947 can and should do the same. Persuade, pressure, campaign to get the Blue Dogs to see that they can be more progressive than they think, help them overcome their fear of the right — those are good goals. And if they won’t listen, then run better candidates against them in the primaries.

    But in the end, the day the purges start is the day the party loses its majority — because it will lose not only the Blue Dogs (most of whom still vote 70-90% with the party leadership, at least in the House), but also me, because once the ‘purges’ start, there’s no end to them, and the party will lose not only the conservative wing, but the moderates, and the moderate progressives, and on and on and on.

    Our parties are coalitions, and with our electoral system, that isn’t going to change. Therefore, winning parties have to put up with internal diversity — and who, after all, should celebrate diversity more than the Democratic party. The Republican party sure isn’t!

  • I have had it with the Democratic party. Just a bunch of liberal wimps. This primary has been lame compared to others in the past, yet Clinton has been so demonized by the Obama fans and the liberal media. Obama should hire everyone affliated with NBC and MSNBC to be in his cabinet.

  • Re Krugman: I hope he comes to his senses soon.

    Re Clinton’s JFK comment: I posted late on another CB thread (#85 on “Obama gives Clinton a pass”) and doubt many read it. Instead of repeating it I’m changing it up a bit:

    If we agree that the JFK “A” comment was merely a historical reference, then it is only the latest in her kitchen sink strategy. She meant Obama no harm.

    Her original kitchen sink strategy failed to stem the tide towards Obama in the primaries; now time is short and she cannot overtake him in the last three primaries. So her new tactic is convincing the supers NOT to announce for Obama before the convention, by throwing out what ifs.

    She also must get FL and MI counted by going to Florida to make her case by comparing the state’s non-counting primary to slavery and Zimbabwe. She takes back her campaign’s Michigan agreement, saying that Obama can have no delegates since he took his name off the ballot (it was HIS fault for doing so, after all) and therefore received no votes, even though it is understood that the 40% of votes for “Other” was largely his (and the rest Edwards’).

    Her 5/23 JFK comment, while thoughtless (to be generous), was just another TACTIC for trying to win the nomination.

    She must take her candidacy to the convention!!!

    But here’s what bugs me, and convinces me that she does not have the character to be president: since she herself lived through those dark days in the 1960’s – the assassinations of JFK, MLK and RFK (which churns up all the other issues of that decade), AND as a former first lady, AND knowing that Obama has received death threats, she’s got to KNOW that throwing the word “assassination” around is a big NO-NO.

  • Most immediately, they should realize that the continuing demonization of Mrs. Clinton serves nobody except Mr. McCain. One more trumped-up scandal won’t persuade the millions of voters who stuck with Mrs. Clinton despite incessant attacks on her character that she really was evil all along. But it might incline a few more of them to stay home in November.

    Where was Paul Krugman’s wagging finger when Obamas was the one being demonized by Mrs. Clinton and her cult? To the best of my knowledge, when the media was all over Senator Clinton as regards her cleavage, her laugh, etc, etc, Obama didn’t pile on, jusdt as he hasn’t over her idiotic RFK remark. To my recollection, Senator Clinton hasn’t been as forbearing.

    On a completely unrelated note, my spoiler laden review of INDIANA JONES AND THE KINGDOM OF THE CRYSTAL SKULL is href=”http://miserableannalsoftheearth.blogspot.com/2008/05/indiana-jones-in-1-d.html”>here, if anyone cares.

  • At this point in the process, any time any Obama supporter disrespects HRC, they only help McCain. If you want to help Obama, make friends with HRC supporters.

  • Sorry, forgot the part of #18:

    And yet she still used the word for political advantage. Invoking JFK’s assassination for POLITICAL ADVANTAGE. Think about that.

  • #21 Ack. forgot the LAST part of #18:
    And yet she still used the word for political advantage. Invoking JFK’s assassination for POLITICAL ADVANTAGE. Think about that.

  • If Hillary wants to look at who’s responsible for all the bad press she’s gotten for her lies, her incompetence, her badly-run campaign, and everything else she’s gotten whacked for, all she has to do is look in the bathroom mirror.

    And the feminazi branch of feminism that supports her “uber alles” really needs to ask themselves about their female chauvinism (are you listening, Mary?). This is the branch of feminism who used to argue in the late 19th century that women should get the vote so they could add to the number of white voters andcancel out the “darkie vote.”

  • First of all, its is totally ridiculous to even suggest that one opponent has it out for another, this is the first time in history anything like this has ever happened to my knowledge. It is apparent that this is not politics as usual. And I’ve got some news for the media, the race isn’t over yet. Let the people vote for God’s sake!
    And now you want to blame this “Clinton assignation plot,” all on Obama supporters and not Obama. Who leads Obama’s campaign, his supporters or him? This is just another example of Obama not having any leadership abilities. It took him twenty years to stand up to Reverend Wright. But, let’s face the truth, he sits in the background calling all of the shots, and lets other people take the blame. His dirty style politics has cost him this race.

  • Just another in a long line of biased reports from Krugman.

    I think Obamas supporters are doing the nation a great service by saving us all from the likes of the Hillary clan.

    However, a little civil war in the party might be just what is needed to shake it up. I think the possibility of a division into two permanent camps,actually even the birthing of a third party from the split would be seen in time as a good thing for this country.
    My suggestion is Hillary or Obama if they don’t get the Democratic nomination should branch off and form their own party and run. Anyway, McCain said on SNL that he thinks thats a good idea too….being the inclusive fellow he is, he is more than willing to run against the both of them.

    Problem solved

  • Which Hillary Clinton are we talking about? From my seat, a few Hillarys have been treated unfairly, but the vast majority of Hillarys have gotten away with murder (it’s figure of speech, folks).

  • It a stretch to call the Democrats a ‘party”. They are always at war with each other so there’s nothing new there. The DLC has been a stalking horse for the Rethugs, and prevented the more populist elements in the ‘party’ from getting any traction. They’re Republicans at heart, and should call themselves as such.

    I had dinner last night with two psychiatrists, both of whose wives support(ed) Hillary. I asked them if they felt Clinton’s remarks on the RFK assassination had any subconscious elements – as in wishful thinking. They both thought so. I’m having trouble giving her the benefit of the doubt as well. She and Bill have introduced blatant racism into this campaign. It was going to happen, but it would have been started by the Rethugs and the MSM not the Democrats. To now introduce the assassination element is just another sign that she doesn’t care what happens to the ‘party’.

    If she stays in past the primaries then we’ll know her game is to destroy Obama, and the bitterness will linger.

  • “purges really sound like bad 20th history to me, nor do they work in a democratic society”

    Oh, Yeah? Democratic Party voters had not trouble purging Joe LIE-berman from the party a couple of years ago – too bad the voters in the general election didn’t pay enough attention. We don’t clean up the mess that BushCo. has left by just electing Obama and then going back to our non-political lives. We keep an eye out for whoever is trying to sell us out to the special interests, and run real Democrats against them in the primaries. We will always have DINOs, but we weaken the party by letting them have very much influence.

  • It’s delusional thinking to believe Obama will get enough HRC supporters to win the general election. The superdelegates who are in an end-run conspiracy with Obama to swipe the nomination before the primaries end and FL and MI get resolved are also delusional to think Obama has the messianic power to “unite” with HRC supporters to defeat McCain.

    If Obama swipes the nomination from Sen. Clinton, the Democratic Party will be beyond the realm of any winning “unity.” It will be on the path of a train wreck in November, when Obama will crash and burn with his egghead and African American supporters. McCain will be president.

    The Democratic Party can only win with Sen. Clinton as the best qualified and strongest candidate to defeat McCain hands down. Sen. Clinton must continue her fight for the future of America. All rational Democrats need to support her campaign with frequent contributions at HillaryClinton.com.

  • I think it’s important to make the distinction that many of us, former Dodd/Edwards/Biden/Kucinich supporters, don’t criticize Clinton because we’re Obama supporters. We’re Obama supporters because, relatively speaking, Clinton gives us so much to criticize her for.

  • I would like for crat3 to explain how Obama could possibly “swipe” an election in which he won the most delegates, the most popular votes and the most states (whether you include Michigan or not).

    How does the person in first place “swipe” an election from the person who came in second?

  • The superdelegates who are in an end-run conspiracy with Obama to swipe the nomination before the primaries end and FL and MI get resolved are also delusional to think Obama has the messianic power to “unite” with HRC supporters to defeat McCain.

    There certainly is a lot of delusion in that sentence — (1) your bizarre belief that the candidate who’s led the delegate race since the primaries began is going to “Swipe” the nomination from the entitled-by-birthright Hillary Clinton; (2) your mistaken belief that Puerto Rico, South Dakota and Montana have enough delegates left to change the outcome even if Hillary Clinton got 100% of them; and (3) your odd belief that FL and MI haven’t been resolved — they have, since all candidates including Hillary Clinton agreed that if they moved their dates up their delegates wouldn’t count, and they won’t.

  • I can’t agree with the idea that the media has been tough on any of the candidates. None of them have been pressed about any of their positions with any depth. Krugman praises Hillary for her health care proposals but fails, as does much of the press, to really explore all the costs, ramifications and faults of her policy or anyone else’s.

    I’d also say the press never really explored the entire notion of the dynasty issue — an issue that troubled many of us — in any depth. And Bill Clinton got off pretty light with criticisms of some of his off the cuff comments while the media largely held their fire in delving into his seedy international deals. And the press pretty well let go the notion that Hillary had been vetted.

    I can only add that his campaign has revealed that all of the candidates are fallible human beings. All of them have screwed up something along the way. We can question some of their intentions or motives but the fact is plain that we have been lead by and will continue to be lead by very fallible humans. But it is also plain that the system by which we elect these candidates is very broken and it is very difficult for anyone to run in this country without being severely tarnished by the screwed up process.

  • How does the person in first place “swipe” an election from the person who came in second?

    As an Edwards supporter, I’m still furious that Obama stole Iowa from him and Hillary swiped NH from him.

    It’s not fair! Waaah-wahh-wahhh.

  • my problem with “moving on” is twofold.

    firstly, hillary clinton seriously injured her reputation, in my mind, because she failed to address the fact that she blew people’s anxiety level out of the water with her comment. i read her follow-up statement and all she had were intellectual arguments as to why she did what she did. that doesn’t don’t cut it when the real problem is people already feeling fractured and she injudiciously compounded people’s anxiety.

    secondly, when mccain, or one of his surrogates, makes a statement that “well, i’m behind but i’m not stepping aside because look what happened to benazir bhutto,” what are you going to say then?

    if it is okay for a democrat, don’t come complaining later when a republican does it. you might not but i am going to retain my right to bitch labout it.

    just remember, you reap what you sow.

  • I find it remarkable that a supporter of the candidate who went strongly negative with the “kitchen sink” strategy wants to throw stones at someone else’s glass house. Barack has been quite civil in this campaign, criticizing Hillary on issues rather than peripheral garbage. He has consistently not taken the bait and been drawn into the cesspool when the other candidate’s campaign was doing the taunting.

    Krugman looks like he wants to point fingers at the demise of Hillary’s run for the White House and rather than point them at a campaign that wasted money, political opportunity and the initial almost insurmountable lead, he wants to point them at some imaginary dirty tricks from the other side. Those grapes sure taste mighty sour Paul, but it was Hillary’s campaign that put them on the table. Had she run her campaign more about the issues that on nastiness, I would have gladly supported her. But her campaign lost its way and that is not the fault of Obama. If Krugman wants to criticize the media for all of its silliness along the way, though, have at it Paul.

  • I think Steve summed it up correctly.

    The Democratic Party lives under a HUGE umbrella….where we all live with various pathways to …I think, the same ends. But before the ends/the issues can be dealt with we need to get rid of corporate intervention in our politicians, our laws, our government. It means the return of regulation and the break up of powerful monopolies like the media moguls and other industries. It means people before corporations with courts of law peopled with judges who do not rule for corporations & profit over people. Once we get rid of the corporate $$ overseers, then and only then can we tackly the issues that they hath wrought…like jobs, healthcare for all, infrastructure, sustainable energy, and a viable earth for our grandchildren. I support Obama, in part, because he sees that we must build this foundation before we can succeed with the issues that are the walls & the roof.

  • I think a handfull of weird Hillary cultists have been given far too much attention and far too much importance. they won’t matter in the general election.

  • Evergreen at #39 says: “we need to get rid of corporate intervention in our politicians, our laws, our government. It means the return of regulation and the break up of powerful monopolies like the media moguls and other industries. It means people before corporations with courts of law peopled with judges who do not rule for corporations & profit over people. Once we get rid of the corporate $$ overseers, then and only then can we tackly the issues that they hath wrought…”

    Couldn’t agree more – that’s why I advocate purging the DLC types. In primaries and elections, of course.

  • Kleiman throws some hand:
    http://www.samefacts.com/archives/campaign_2008_/2008/05/moral_equivalence.php

    I say: nuf said…
    but it is not:

    Carpetbagger: [Krugman] has now criticized Obama’s healthcare proposal in 12 different print columns since February…

    Rhetorical question: Can you imagine how many columns he would have devoted to lambasting Barack if he had been dumb enough to propose a gas tax holiday?

    Conclusion: If this is the “conscience of a liberal” it needs to be double-flushed.

  • “The Obama campaign isn’t demonizing the Clinton campaign, but some of his supporters might be.”

    It seems to me that virtually everyone posting at this site is demonizing Clinton.

    Look, I think what Clinton is doing with the Michigan and Florida vote is terrible but she doesn’t deserve the crap that many people here are dumping on her plate.

  • 30. crat3 said: It’s delusional thinking to believe Obama will get enough HRC supporters to win the general election. The superdelegates who are in an end-run conspiracy with Obama to swipe the nomination before the primaries end and FL and MI get resolved are also delusional to think Obama has the messianic power to “unite” with HRC supporters to defeat McCain.

    If Obama swipes the nomination from Sen. Clinton, the Democratic Party will be beyond the realm of any winning “unity.” It will be on the path of a train wreck in November, when Obama will crash and burn with his egghead and African American supporters. McCain will be president.

    The Democratic Party can only win with Sen. Clinton as the best qualified and strongest candidate to defeat McCain hands down. Sen. Clinton must continue her fight for the future of America. All rational Democrats need to support her campaign with frequent contributions at HillaryClinton.com.

    Your candidate lost. She is hopelessly behind by every objective measure and has to make up increasingly dubious formulations to claim otherwise. In no rational country I know of do the supporters of the winning candidate unite behind the losing candidate. It’s insane. If you want to vote for McCain out of bitterness, then do it. The only way that will benefit you is if your Clinton support is based strictly on cult of personality. Obama and Clinton agree on almost every issue, McCain and Clinton do not. All you are doing is furthering the stereotype that Clinton’s strongest supporters have no values other than winning. If that describes you, then I agree that McCain is your natural alternative candidate.

  • if shillary quits the negative campaign and assassination crap, and accepts the will of the people and party – I will be happy to treat her and her supporters with more understanding and respect.

    Until then, I will give them back what shillary is throwing out – its really just that simple

  • I know you won’t print this but it is going to feel so good to write it.

    The fucking pricks of the progressive blogs can eat their own dicks and choke on them I hope.

    ….that is just a fraction of how much I hope the bastards suffer when their candidate of change falls into the hands of the Republicans and McCain hands the blogs a humiliating defeat.

    It will be more than a cold day from hell that as a Democratic voter that I will vote for a party that has endorsed, condoned and looked the other way while the venomous blogs , on the
    left vomited their bile hiding behind cute little names or riding a power trip as blog owner.

    Know what I am going to do with my rage? I will not only vote for MCain but I will organize for him also. I will do everything in my power to bury your vile asses. Ignorant pricks!

    Oh my God! That felt good

  • If Obama swipes the nomination from Sen. Clinton, …

    How can he ‘swipe’ it, if she doesn’t own it?

    This is a novel interpretation of the concept of ‘theft’…

  • MGale, are you really proud of yourself for that idiotic post? You must be a Republican. Get a grip.

  • MGale – we don’t need you, neither does Obama. You are not that important. Get a grip and deflate your ego a little.

  • Krugman is as big a liar as Hillary.

    The media has been far tougher on Obama.

    Hillary blames Obama for all her lies, racists rants and pathetic performance.

    There is one scum in this race, and it ain’t Obama.

  • MGale,

    Best of luck. With all the lobbyists he’s firing, you might even be able to become a paid staffer. With your excellent speech writing skills, I’m sure you’ll help take McCain all the way to the White House.

  • Methinks that the McCain blogwhoring campaign isn’t looking for idiots like McFuckhead.

    No points. Sorry.

    And, Tom Cleaver…what you said.

  • 46. MGale said: The fucking pricks of the progressive blogs can eat their own dicks and choke on them I hope……It will be more than a cold day from hell that as a Democratic voter that I will vote for a party that has endorsed, condoned and looked the other way while the venomous blogs , on the left vomited their bile hiding behind cute little names or riding a power trip as blog owner.

    If you hate the left that much, why do you pretend to be a Democrat? Republicans have a party that should be much more to your ideological liking.

  • Obama is not demonizing Hillary Clinton. Obama’s campaign has been restrained in criticizing Hillary Clinton.

    Some of Obama’s supporters have demonized Hillary Clinton. As many, if not more, Clinton supporters are demonizing Obama.

    Clinton’s campaign has piled on during some of the manufactured outrages (Wright, bitter) of the campaign. Clinton has directly stoked the fires of the manufactured outrages herself.

    Ultimately, Hillary Clinton is the person who has demonized Hillary Clinton. It is sad to watch a politician I once respected degrade herself. There is too much of a pattern (not to mention the “kitchen sink” admission) to think this is anything but an attempt to keep Obama from securing the nomination at any cost. The cost to our country and our party (as well as to Iran and the rest of the world) could be enormous under a President McCain.

  • DON’T BE DUPED AGAIN AMERICA !!!

    IT’S ABOUT ELECTABILITY !!!

    Large numbers of BUSH_McCain Republicans have been voting for Barack Obama in the DEMOCRATIC primaries, and caucuses from early on with the backing and help of the medical and insurance industry. Under the direction of the George Bush, and Karl Rove vote fraud, and vote manipulation machine. Because they feel Barack Obama would be a weaker opponent against John McCain. And they want to stop Hillary Clinton from fixing the HUGE! American, and Global mess they have created. shocking!!! isn’t it. Just gotta love those good old draft dodging, silver spoon Texas boys. Not! 🙁

    You see, the medical and insurance industry mostly support the republicans with the money they ripped off from you. And they don’t want you to have quality, affordable universal health care. They want to be able to continue to rip you off, and kill you and your children by continuing to deny you life saving medical care that you have already paid for. So they can continue to make more immoral profits for them-selves off of you, and your children’s suffering.

    With Hillary Clinton you are almost 100% certain to get quality affordable universal health care for everyone very soon. And you are also certain to see major improvements in the economy for everyone.

    The American people face even worse catastrophes ahead than the ones you are living through now. It will take all of the skills, and experience of Hillary Clinton to pull the American people out of this mess we are in. Fortunately fixing up, and cleaning up others incompetence, immoral degeneracy, and mess is what the Clinton’s do very well.

    Hillary Clinton has actually won by much larger margins than the vote totals showed. And lost by much smaller vote margins than the vote totals showed. Her delegate count is actually much higher than it shows. And higher than Obama’s. She also leads in the electoral college numbers that you must win to become President in the November national election. HILLARY CLINTON IS ALREADY THE TRUE DEMOCRATIC NOMINEE!

    Just look at Oregon for example. Obama won Oregon by about 70,000 votes. But approximately 79,000 Bush republicans switched party’s back in January to vote for Obama in the democratic primary. They are not going to vote for, or support any Democrat in November. Are you DEMOCRATS going to put up with that. Are you that stupid, and weak. The Bush republicans think you are that stupid, and weak.

    As much as 30% of Obama’s primary, and caucus votes are Republicans trying to choose the weakest democratic candidate for McCain to run against. These Republicans have been gaming the caucuses, and open primaries where it is easier to vote cheat. This is why Obama has not been able to win the BIG! states primaries. Even with Republican vote cheating help. Except North Carolina where 35% of the population is African American, and approximately 90% of them block voted for him. African Americans are only approximately 17% of the general population.

    Hillary Clinton has been OUT MANNED! and OUT SPENT! 4 and 5 to 1. Yet Obama has only been able to manage a very tenuous, and questionable tie with Hillary Clinton. This is even more phenomenal when you consider she has been also fighting against the George Bush, Karl Rove vote fraud machine in the DEMOCRATIC primaries, and caucuses. Hillary Clinton is STUNNING!.

    If Obama is the democratic nominee for the national election in November he will be slaughtered. That is crystal clear now. Because all of the Republican vote cheating help will suddenly evaporate. And the demographics, and experience are completely against him. All of this vote fraud and Bush republican manipulation has made Obama falsely look like a much stronger candidate than he really is.

    You will have another McGovern catastrophe where George McGovern lost 49 of 50 states. And was the reason the super-delegates were created to keep that from happening again. Don’t let that happen to the party and America again super-delegates. You have the power to prevent it. The only important question now is who can best win in November. And the answer is HILLARY RODHAM CLINTON. That fact is also now crystal clear.

    And YOUNG PEOPLE. DON’T BE DUPED! Think about it. You have the most to lose. As do African Americans. Support Hillary Clinton. She will do her best for all of you. And she will know how to best get it done on day one.

    The democratic party needs to fix this outrage. Everyone needs to throw all your support to Hillary Clinton NOW! So you can end this outrage against YOU the voter, and against democracy.

    The democratic party, and the super-delegates have a decision to make. Are the democrats, and the democratic party going to choose the DEMOCRATIC party nominee to fight for the American people. Or are the republicans going to choose the DEMOCRATIC party nominee through vote fraud, and gaming the DEMOCRATIC party primaries, and caucuses.

    Fortunately the Clinton’s have been able to hold on against this fraudulent outrage with those repeated dramatic, and heroic comebacks of Hillary Clinton’s. Only the Clinton’s are that resourceful, and strong. Hillary Clinton is your NOMINEE. They are the best I have ever seen. Probably the best there has ever been. 🙂

    “This is not a game” (Hillary Clinton)

    Sincerely

    jacksmith… Working Class 🙂

    p.s. Cynthia Ruccia – I’m with ya baby. All the way. “Clinton Supporters Count Too.”

  • To all the Obama supporters out there —

    Take a close look at what Obama is doing and saying out there on the campaign trail over these past couple of weeks. You’ll notice that he has shifted his focus towards the general election this fall; he’s calling out McCain, responding the Republican (and Presidential) attacks, discussing the issues. Obama is visiting swing states like Florida and Michigan, and planning visits to ‘purple’ states in the upcoming days. He is quietly in the planning stages of choosing a vice president, and is working to integrate the DNC into his campaign for this fall.

    He barely mentions Clinton at all — and when he does have to look backwards at Clinton, he’s magnanimous and downright effusive in his praise of her and her campaign. But 90% of his time is now geared towards the general election these days.

    So, Obama supporters, take note: Obama won the nomination, and he’s moved forward. No more attacks on Clinton are necessary or productive — it’s just a waste of time. Please – it’s time that the Obama bloggers and supporters ALSO move forward. Stop spending your valuable time responding to the Clinton dead-enders, and spend more time building up Obama for the November election. Every minute you spend typing up some response to one of Clinton’s dead-enders is a minute you could be using to reply to a McCain supporter instead. Choose your time wisely.

    The Clinton dead-enders will continue to whine and scream, hiss and yell. Let them – there’s no reason to reply back to them. By acknowledging their mere existence, you are providing them further oxygen to continue their attacks. Eventually they will yell themselves out, most of them will come to their senses and vote (albeit grudgingly in many cases) for the Democratic candidate. And some won’t — but do you think there is ANYTHING you could do at this point to convince them otherwise? No need wasting time on the lost souls.

    Obama and his campaign have moved on. Time for the Obama supporters to do the same. Time and resources are valuable and limited – use your time wisely.

  • M High–you’re right of course. Thanks for the reminder. It’s just frustrating when fellow Democrats use the same damn tactics that Republicans use. I respect Senator Obama in large part because he has refused to engage in the tactics being thrown at him.

  • M High

    I think the angry people who are venting now because their candidate is losing will turn their anger toward McCain later on. Most importantly, the reason for a lot of current anger isn’t related to either candidate, but rather to the horrible devastation Bush has subjected us all to — each side of the Democratic divide believes his/her candidate offers the best solution, and I think there’s a kind of fierce determination about repairing America among the Democrats.

    With John McCain in the forefront slamming Bush into America’s faces, all of this pent-up energy is quite likely to focus on him and the likelihood he’ll take us all into a third Bush term if he wins.

    It’s sort of like a horrid monster that has smashed our houses to smithereens who is on his way again, and right now, we’re all fighting about the best plan to do him in. When he arrives, we either will work with the plan the majority has chosen or be overcome again, against our own best interests. Joining with the monster to punish the side whose plan won won’t save anybody’s house — it’ll be smashed again and worse.

  • I can’t be alone in feeling that Mrs Clinton has repeatedly insulted me and other lifelong liberal Democrats who would be offended by her use of guilt-by-association, and her effort to shamelessly open up the Pandora’s box of racism.
    God knows, as do all of us, that Hillary comes from the “elitist” world she laughingly used to try to smear Obama.
    I know I am one of many who began by liking Hillary, finding her attractive as a candidate, and now I am appalled by her.
    I feel her desperate gas tax position, her insistence on ignoring the opinion of economists, her refusal to take responsibility for any of her own obvious mistakes and her raucous and thoughtless words demonstrate that she is absolutely unfit to hold the office of President. She has proved to me that she is as stubborn as George Bush: when she is wrong she sticks with it, no matter what experts and colleages tell her, and she does a lot of damage. I have come to hate her–and that is all based on her words and her actions over the past several weeks.
    She demonstrates no grace, no vision, and quite frankly, no morality that I can see.
    From the beginning she seemed to forget “the vision thing” — as if an “experienced Washington technocrat”, as she presented herself, was enough for the office. What were they thinking? In any case, I liked her, and blamed her failings on Mark Penn. Well, as soon as they fired Penn, or demoted him, things got much worse. She got meaner and more desperate and said crazier things.
    I don’t want her to be President, and I don’t want her to be Vice President. I don’t want her in any position of power.
    And I am a sixty-five year old woman.

  • To MGale:

    I’m not sure why you are as angry as you are. However, I wish you the best. I hope you don’t go to work for McCain unless you truly believe in his policies. How about working for a congressperson you believe in instead?

    It’s just a suggestion. In any case, I truly wish you well and am sorry you have been so turned off.

    My wish: those of us who support Obama (or Clinton), please remember these are human beings you are writing to on line.

    I like the idea of moving forward to the general election, too. Too many of our kids are suffering right now for us to keep bickering.

  • Someone should inform MGale that blogs aren’t wholly-owned subsidiaries of the Democratic Party.

    Maybe leave a message for him at McCain HQ.

  • Its not like we need any more proof, but Bill Clintons comments on behalf of Hillary today are incendiary beyond belief (evoking Watergate and Whitewater coverups???)

    The Dems, Emily List, et. al, Robert Kennedy Jr., (who the Clintons are now exploiting to the harm of Obama), Senator Feinstein and other Clinton supporters need to pull the plug on them for their own good and tell them SHOW SOME DIGNITY AND CLASS AND GET OUT… YOU LOST!!!.

    They are now somewhere between Lieberman and McCain…. So fucking selfish and destructive.

    His not so subtle gambit… threaten to destroy the Dem chances in November if she does not get the VP node…. Their thinking assassination (no, they do not get any benefit of the doubt) she will be VP– and gosh golly, incite enough racists and she and Bill have a good shot back selling the US interest to foreign governments direct from the Lincoln Bedroom.

    The reason they are so desperate?? That $105 million includes Futures (kickbacks) in the Third Term Clinton White House, which for a long time looked like a good investment. They are panicking because they may have to pay back their bribes with interest and not from the seat of the White House. Ouch! Corrupt foreign governments will look for some steep penalties.

  • Steve, I don’t agree with you at all. Hillary should not get a pass over the “assassination” remark;she’s gotten enough free passes already. I am not sure if the remark was deliberate, but at the least it was a Freudian slip, giving us a view of a very dark soul. Clinton apologized to the Kennedys, but not Obama and his family, as I’m sure you know. And now the Clinton camp’s latest shtick is to say it’s all Obama’s fault, when he dealt with Clinton’s remarks very graciously. It seems to me you’re giving this lady a bit too much credit.

  • Some of Obama’s supporters have demonized Hillary Clinton…

    The only person responsible for “demonizing” Hillary Clinton….is Hillary Clinton.

  • Pardon me, dananimal (#57). You already said exactly that later in your same post.

    Great minds, and all that.

  • Fellow Progressives,

    I watched two great movies this holiday weekend that I know you’ll like…both based on true stories…both educational…both have great scripts and unbelievable acting.

    Last King of Scotland (Forest Whitaker was amazing.)

    Charlie Wilson’s War (as usual, Phillip Seymore Hoffman steals the show…although Hanks, Roberts and the rest were great too.)

    Sorry for the interruption. Carry on.

  • I am just curious why the onus for civility has been laid at the feet of Obama and his supporters. I thought the idea was to work and win as a party, to erase the excesses of the Bush administration? Shouldn’t we, as a matter of principle, be more concerned with thwarting McCain as opposed to this nonsense we are engaged in?

  • Krugman is fast becoming a joke.
    I am an Obama supporter but, never lambasted Hillary for her remarks Friday. I never felt she should have been raked over for them. I saw them as the misspeak of a tired person.
    I am tired of the powerful of Hillary’s supporters blaming us Obama supporters for all kinds of evil and ills.
    If I think Hillary is going over the line I say so but, I don’t trash her if I feel she is being unfairly targeted.
    I do get tired of the poor victim that Bill, Hillary and surrogates play. The fact is that it is time to take responsibility for what really went wrong and it has nothing to do with Obama.
    She ran an awful campaign. She did a bad job and it cost her.
    That is not the fault of Obama or his supporters.
    Her supporters need to see the real reasons and accept them and quit blaming everyone else.
    Krugman needs to grow up.

  • Pity the poor Carpetbagger. Here he is talking sense and the anger management squad comes out to prove him wrong.

    “I consider members of the Democratic Leadership Council to be sell-outs at best, and traitors to Democratic party principles at worst. The Clintons are proud members of that group. ”

    “The fucking pricks of the progressive blogs can eat their own dicks and choke on them I hope.”

    “if shillary quits the negative campaign and assassination crap . . . ”

    “Krugman is as big a liar as Hillary.”

    Best of all #68 demands that the other side “SHOW SOME DIGNITY AND CLASS” because, after all they are “. . . So fucking selfish and destructive.”

    It’s a comment thread and if people want to write fuckity fuck fuck all over the place, enjoy. But I’m with the sane majority above, who like the CB realize that outraging Clinton into the ground isn’t going to help.

    Two partisans telling each other to “eat their own dicks and choke on them” is the sound of internecine war. The trailing candidate’s supporters shout-ordering the leading candidate’s supporters to eat their own genitalia is the sound of a sore-loser turned nutjob. The more that gets spewed as one-way hater-ade the faster the rest of those who didn’t vote for Obama rally around the party nominee.

    Let them yell (a few are GOP trolls anyway). It won’t win the nomination and it won’t persuade a single superdelegate. As for Krugman, he hates Republicans more than he hates Obama and he’ll come around.

  • Krugman is fast becoming a joke.

    He’s really lost a lot of credibility lately with the shilling. Even in this column, he gets in a number of digs against Obama for BS issues before saying that it’s the Obama people who are all mean and whiny.

    Give it a rest, Paul. You’re not getting Treasury in a Clinton administration. Grow up.

  • I am just curious why the onus for civility has been laid at the feet of Obama and his supporters…

    It’s Not His Turn, Dammit. It Wasn’t In The Plan.

  • I agree with M High.

    There is no point in arguing with the Hillary supporters. They lost. Why waste resources on them? Just ignore them. There is nothing to be gained from arguing with them at this point

    The Clintons pulled a lot of shit this campaign, but, well, vengeance against fellow party members isn’t worth it. Focus on McCain.

    We won a massively important victory, but the real war is only just beginning.

    As for MGale, he/she is a self admitted Republican. He/she states they were never a progressive to begin with. He/she even argues like a Republican, a lot of idiotic bull shit that only persuades those who are already drinking the cool aid. At this point, he/she is just a McCain troll. Don’t lump that idiot with all of the other people who may have been/perhaps still are Hillary supporters. The real Democrats will come around when they realize what is truly at stake.

  • A couple months ago when I mentioned that I would consider voting for McCain before I would vote for Clinton, one of my friends just had to say two words to me:

    “Supreme Court.”

    That’s a cold splash of water to bring me back to my senses.

    I am pretty confident that when we reach November, in the privacy of the voting booth, most Democrats, independents, moderates and intelligent Republicans will realize there is more at stake here than a single four-year term.

  • I second M High again.

    I will also add, I was originally in the Edwards camp, but… well… I got over him losing. I still think Edwards would make an awesome president, but that won’t happen, so I will support the Democratic candidate Obama. I will say he is a fantastic candidate, even if I would have preferred Edwards, at least originally.

  • Boo hoo – make them stop, call the waaaaaahbulance

    They are not being nice to shillary – and she was so considerate to everyone else. She is sticking up for racists, working with kkkarl rove, earning the support of rush limbaugh, and has even said she would be ready if Obama gets assassinated this June.

    And people aren’t nice to her…

    Boo hoo Boo F#ckin’ hoo

  • The simple reason the “onus of civility” has been laid on Obama is because by definition it is the nominee, not anyone else, who needs to piece together a winning number of voters.

    If Clinton supporters continue to antagonize Obama supporters, that is unfortunate (and really, with the very rare exceptions like Greg and Mary – the former likely a Republican troll, the latter not entirely sane – I don’t see much of this) but irrelevant: paybacks really make no difference to Clinton’s fate at this point.

    With Obama supporters, however, it is a very different story. Since the CBR community tends to pride itself on being reality-based, I am continually amazed at those who honestly think the math works for Obama without substantial backing from former Clinton supporters. Some portion of the record Democratic turnout in the primaries and caucuses has also been her support: she won several states that set new turnout records. She had the second best fundraising numbers in a nomination contest in history. In 2000 and 2004, winning numbers of electoral votes were decided by less than 1000 votes in Florida and less than 5000 in numerous states — Clinton’s supporters number several orders of magnitude above those margins.

    Now, honestly, I think Carpetbagger is right: because it isn’t Obama doing the tauting and gloating and continued bashing, the overwhelming majority of the Clinton supporters will “come home” and vote Democratic in November. That is the most important thing, and should (and I think will) have little to do with how Obama supporters act.

    But what I think Carpetbagger understates is how much more the Clinton supporters could do — and here is where the behavior of Obama supporters matters. A Clinton supporter can go and vote and have nothing to do with Obama’s tin-eared, sore-winning supporters. But it would be very, very helpful to have all of those additional workers on the ground as part of the organization. And those folks wont be working with Obama, who has stayed on the high ground, but with his supporters many of whom, as evidenced here, are having a little trouble winning magnanimously. And I think that very much will limit the involvement of Clinton supporters — they wont want to work side by side with people who have been attacking them. I also think the bad feelings created among supporters will make a difference in the checks that get written (not at the higher levels among the “professional” political class, but among the low-dollar contributors), because while voting Democratic is a threshold thing that all Democrats will ultimately do to stop McCain, parting with cash – especially in this economy – takes more of an emotional stake. Hard to get that when you are being ridiculed.

    I fully expect to be told that Obama doesn’t need any Clinton supporters to write checks or provide assistance. Having worked dozens of campaigns, I think that is naive and unduly risky. It may prove correct, but this election would be a whole lot safer and easier if we didn’t find out. Slamming on people like Emily’s List and sweeping all Clinton supporters as “DLC types” is just irrational. Emily’s has been instrumental in the wins of people like Sebelius and McCaskill, people Obama supporters claim to support as well. Maybe its a unique breed here, but it sure looks to me like Obama supporters are willing to throw the baby out with the bathwater to try and prove some point about purity. Purists rarely win large-geography elections.

    Very early in this thread, someone said that Obama supporters need to befriend Clinton supporters. On a very personal, one-on-one basis, that kind of local outreach would pay massive dividends in the remainder of the time between now and November. Or, the Obama supporters can continue to welcome the numerous “little bears” among the crowd knowing that the continued kicking Clinton and her supporters while she is down hurts no one but the one who needs as many votes as possible: Obama.

  • little bear:

    I agree with the anti-racist sentiment, but, why keep kicking the Hillary supporters when they are down. They already lost.

    The Clintons may have done a lot of vile things in the primary, but it is pretty much over, and they lost.

    It is time to move on to McCain.

  • Sorry little bear…, I didn’t see Mark Pencil’s response when I was typing mine.

    I didn’t mean to pile on. I certainly didn’t mean to attack you. Your heart is in the right place, but…., well…., while the Hillary campaign was indeed quite racist and vile…., well….., they have pretty much lost.

    It is time to move on.

    Please keep that enthusiasm and fighting spirit for attacking McCain, but it seems kind of unseemly to keep kicking Hillary after she has already lost, even if some, such as myself, may have the urge to do so.

    It is time to accept victory and move on to the larger war.

  • Steve Benen: The Obama campaign isn’t demonizing the Clinton campaign

    This is flat wrong. After the RFK flap began, Obama’s camp sent out to the press a transcript of Keith Olbermann slamming Hillary as “heartless.” George Stephanopoulos questioned David Axelrod about this on his show, “This Week”:

    “You say you’re not trying to stir the issue up,” Mr. Stephanopoulos said. “But a member of your press staff yesterday was sending around to an entire press list — I have the e-mail here — Keith Olbermann’s searing commentary against Hillary Clinton. So that is stirring this up, isn’t it?”

    Mr. Axelrod replied: “As far as we’re concerned, this issue is done. It was an unfortunate statement, as we said, as she’s acknowledged. She has apologized. The apology, you know, is accepted. Let’s move forward.”

    http://www.nytimes.com/2008/05/26/us/politics/26campaign.html

    A classic dodge by Mr. Axelrod. Steve and the press should stop trying to pretend the Obama Camp is pristine about not “demonizing” Hillary.

  • The problem, I think, is that it’s a little too easy to misidentify the source of the problem, and I think Krugman may have been a little too quick to mention “Obama and his supporters.” There’s a difference, and it’s important.

    Have some Obama supporters been quick to denigrate Clinton? Absolutely. But I’m not sure it makes sense for Clinton supporters to help John McCain — either directly (by voting for him) or indirectly (by staying home) — because some Obama fans were intemperate towards their favored candidate. Obama and Clinton have had a few dust-ups between them, but nothing outrageous or even unusual in the midst of a competitive process.

    You make Krugman’s point right here – by minimizing the damage. This is what happens to women all the time. Ask any woman who has suffered sexual abuse or rape about their treatment and most will say that men frequently minimize the damage done! This has been the case throughout this campaign. You and others like you profess ignorance about what you do and say; or, you act as if it isn’t “really that bad” after all. These are all tactics of abusers.

    The second point is this: Obama’s attitude is a big part of the reason so many women are angry, don’t trust him and won’t vote for him. He does what every man has done for YEARS – he pays lip service to women when he needs them (e.g., now, as a constituency to “help” HIM win), but fails consistently throughout this campaign – and as far as I can tell throughout his “lengthy” career – to do anything more than cosmetics for women and women’s rights.

    Do you think women don’t notice that it has only been the last two weeks he has “praised” them (really going overboard in lavishing it on Clinton – her breaking barriers for his daughters, blah, blah, blah); and over the weekend when he “found” the issue of PTSD and how it affects women (sexual harassment, rape – mostly in relation to military service)?

    Frankly, I don’t buy for one second that he’s so “pro-choice.” His positions on choice have been all over the damned ballpark; he has hedged (Compassion Forum; voted “present” in Illinois; not initiated or passed a single bill in the U.S. Senate on a) women’s pay; b) international women’s rights; c) providing for women in the military to be covered for abortions; d) Title IX (he’s a big sports fan – where is he on opportunities for women in college athletics?; e) addressed pension and Social Security inequities against women. And I don’t want to hear this one more time from a man: “Well, why don’t you get Sen. Clinton or (fill in the blank woman’s name) to sponsor a bill and I’ll sign on.” This is sheer copout!

    He is no feminist and the fact that he has waited until the final days to even address “women” (hoping, I guess, that the old flattery routine will melt us and bring us to his side) is the purest form of sexism.

    His supporters/followers – many of them “respected” online bloggers – have repeatedly insulted Clinton and her supporters, called Clinton (and us) names not fit for print, accused her and us of some of the most unimaginable evils. In short, they have acted like sexist pigs: smearing women (Clinton) and us because they cannot tolerate or stomach the idea of real change in the highest office in the land.

    Obama has a long, hard road to travel to earn women’s respect and our votes. And don’t believe for a second that we’re going to buy his late stage conversion or “ah-ha” moment about women.

    His surrogates/supporters/followers are also a major source of the problem, yet they continue to be either a) completely thick – unable to understand; b) willfully ignorant of their behavior – unwilling to understand; and c) not at all willing to change their puerile attitudes toward Hillary Clinton AND toward women. That we have had to put up with the worst misogyny (that I recall having experienced since the 70s) AND by progressives, no less, leaves me with little hope that the Democrats are any better on “women’s” concerns than are Republicans.

    Now, do you get it?

  • I think Clinton’s RFK comment was bad even though I know she meant to argue that RFK was still campaigning in June because she knows that assassination is a charged word, that Obama supporters worry about that. From all we know about Clinton, we know she is always on message.

    I am astounded that you agree with this sexist charge, and the use of the word grotesque. I think the occasional sexist remarks were criticized at time (cleavage, husband’s philandering got her where she is) and were outbalanced by the unquestioning deference by press for all of 2007, plus Obama’s had his share of pettiness which you mentioned, plus Obama and most supporters try to be fair to her, BUT IT’S HARD NOT TO DISLIKE HER, when you see the way she and her husband behave, the dishonesty, the Rovian attacks on Obama, the piling on. I would say that her loss today is not from press bias but from her dishonesty and her poorly run campaign and from Obama being the better candidate.

  • OM

    Sorry, but Hillary’s the one who did herself in, not Obama. She made the assassination statement, not Obama. She’s to blame for it, not Obama.

    Her statements attempting to de-legitimize his campaign have been frequent, and he has never done that to her, not once.

    But if it’s your thing in life to tear others down, never recognizing their integrity and decency, that’s what you’ll do.

  • Krugman is perhaps my favorite columnist/analyst, but he has been so over the top about Hillary and Obama that I’ve stopped reading him for the time being. I’m hopeful that when this campaign is over, he’ll return to his rational and reasonable self.

  • Obama no better than Republicans on women’s issues? Please. Even the Blue Dogs are better on women’s issues that actual Republicans. Everyday, on-the-street Republicans with daughters are typically better on women’s issues than *any* GOP politician. That Obama has not pandered specifically to you or your narrow concern is certainly an interesting (though sadly typical) metric.

    A strong woman should not require a female candidate to validate her political concerns. I am not going to speak for all women, but as a woman, LauraW does not speak for me. She’s presumptuous in her remarks about what Obama needs to do win over “women.” Or, because I don’t support Clinton, does that make me not a real woman? Won’t my husband be dismayed…Mom, too.

  • LauraW

    Whoever you are, you have REAL problems. This election is NOT about feminism but pulling our country back from a dangerous precipice that GW Bush has led us to, an illegal war, a Constitutional crisis.

    Hillary Clinton is no more a feminist than John McCain. What the hell has she ever done for women? I am a 70s feminist, when we were put on FBI watchlists and followed by the police to and from meetings. It was a time when women learned to stop competing with each other and instead help each other, through rapes, incest, divorce, domestic violence, reproductive rights, job discrimination, and insurance discrimination. It was the beginning of a corporate shift to cooperation and teamwork. Hillary Clinton doesn’t cooperate with anybody — she just insists on getting her way, in spite of the rules, in spite of reality.

    So I don’t know why women who call themselves feminists support her at all. MANY men are kinder and more understanding of women than Hillary Clinton has ever been, and Obama’s one of them.

  • Laura W’s shrillness notwithstanding, I will at least say this for her — she doesn’t spell ‘women’ with a ‘y’ in it.

    Having said that, Ms. W — when you open your bitter, screeching tirade against a political candidate you dislike and all his supporters by comparing him and all his supporters with rapists, your odds of persuading anyone of the validity of your thesis drop precipitiously.

    But, again, thanks for sticking with the original spelling of ‘women’.

  • I think the Clintons are to blame for the current atmosphere. It is not in Obama’s interests to be splitting the party, and he’s not. He’s been extraordinarily patient with her. He’s done his best not to alienate her supporters.

    She, meanwhile, does her absolute best to delegitimize the voters who voted against her, to use class and race divides to her advantage, to sell people on a campaign of political expedience and Swing State concentration.

    It’s not sexism, at this point, to be showing her the door. I’d be telling a male candidate it was time to get out if they were in that position. She’s putting her own power ahead of the party’s good, and it shows. The irony is, they could have kept more of their power by playing ball with the rest of us Democrats, and accepting defeat gracefully. Now they’re essentially burning all their political capital to be an annoyance and a drag on the winner of the primary campaign. Gee, thanks.

  • JSmith – because they are running an increasingly offensive campaign. Obama is talking the high road and having none of it, but that doesn’t mean others can’t have opinions.

    I will stop commenting on shillary when she stops “catapulting” kkkarl rove’s talking points and dragging the campaign into the gutter.

    I have not posted anything about her or her campaign that can’t be objectively documented – right now, she is our largest problem.

    The talking points she “catapults” are the lies the MSM will use to justify another stolen election – she knows this. Her supporters need to understand this too, not that I expect them to give it any attention.

  • This election is tied. Obama has more pledged delegates and Clinton has the popular vote. Obama has fewer regular Democratic voters and Clinton has more of the states needed for an electoral college victory in the Fall, which keeps her in the race. The leadership against McCain in national polls seesaws, with Clinton leading Obama as often as vice versa. As Clinton has pointed out, several major candidates have continued in the race until the convention without the huge clamoring for them to quit — here is where sexism is again obvious. Continuing to suggest that the 50% of voters who support Clinton are nuts is doing more harm to our election prospects in the Fall than anything Clinton has said or done (this means you too Mark Pencil).

    You Obama supporters are wearing blinders that prevent you from seeing how your candidate plays to people who are not already his admirers. During this dustup with McCain, for example, I found myself wondering why Obama didn’t serve in the military. That is what people all over the red states are going to be wondering too. You all hear him debating the fine points of a GI bill, but Obama is actually highlighting his weakness on issues related to patriotism — issues that matter to many people in the states Obama loses, especially among people who have sent sons and daughters to war in various capacities (trotting out an isolated example such as Cindy Sheehan doesn’t negate this point). Look at the states with more military bases and more kids going to war and see who won them — Clinton. Clinton has consistently in her senate career promoted the interests of those in the military. Obama has done nothing. Obama looks like someone who evaded military service for his own convenience (so that he could become an attorney and continue his affluent lifestyle) and now he is criticizing a man who did his duty. That’s what this issue looks like to people who don’t post here but DO vote. Clinton understands that and she is also immune on the issue because she could not have joined up back in the 70s. So she can attack McCain on this stuff where Obama cannot.

  • Krugman’s column was entirely self-serving, as some have already pointed out. He abused his role as an NYT columnist to play up to the Clintons. The idea that Clinton received a raw deal from either the press or Obama is ludicrous. Both got from the press exactly what the press gives, Krugman included.

    The Obama camp has been positively gentlemanly. The Clinton camp has been dismissive and abusive throughout. Simply compare the public postures of the two campaigns, of, on the one side, Mark Penn and Howard Wolfson, vs. on the other, David Axlerod. Or compare the two candidates. Did Obama ever dismiss Clinton? Did Clinton say McCain was prepared and she was compared and Obama once gave a speech? Really, just roll out the clips of the two campaigns throughout this process and tell me with a straight face that Clinto has played fair and square while Obama has been out of line. Do it, do it. I’m waiting.

    And Obama has consistently praised Clinton, said she had every right to continue in the race, called her a great competitor, praised her victories, dismissed the so-called gaffes and accepted her at her word. Has the Clinton camp done this? No, whenever the press has turned against Obama the entire Clinton camp has piled on. Where was Clinton when the Reverend Wright story broke? Where have they been regarding the flap about Obama’s Muslim heritage?

    If the party is going to achieve unity, most of the giving is goming to have to come from the losers. The victors are being generous in victory and clearing a path toward a graceful exit. The time for that exit is early June. Unless Mrs. Clinton wants to join Ralph Nader in the Democratic Party hall of shame.

  • @Mary #96

    I disagree on the point that Senator Clinton is leading in the popular vote. According to Real Clear Politics, she manages to lead in only 2 of the top 6 methodologies for determining popular vote totals, but more to the point they require that you discount caucus totals and then count the votes and results of the contests which the DNC sanctioned for violating its rules. For all the metrics that have been used historically for determining the winner of nomination, Obama has amassed a considerable lead. That is not a tie.

  • ….she [Hillary] is also immune on the issue [of military service] because she could not have joined up back in the 70s.

    You are quite wrong. Women have been fully-integrated into all branches of the US Armed Forces since 1948, just about the time Hillary was born. The only limitation was that they were not allowed to serve in combat units and their percentage was limited to 2% of each branch.

    http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/647096/Womens-Armed-Services-Integration-Act

    The rest of your post is just as correct as your statement above.

  • “Krugman, for reasons I don’t understand, isn’t critical of them at all”

    And therein lies the unknown, Steve: what are those reasons? Without an answer to that, this discussion will lead us nowhere.

  • As I posted once before, there was a time when a man who was running for president had better have been in the military. That time has been over for decades now. Time to catch up.

    Obama is 46 years old: a child when Vietnam ended, 30 during the brief Gulf War and even older when blink-and-you-miss-it Bosnia occurred. Any comparison with Hillary Clinton’s own lack of service inevitably evokes memories of Bill Clinton’s efforts to avoid being drafted in the Vietnam War, which (quite properly) no one gives a damn about either nowadays.

    Americans who aren’t superannuated, stuck in a distant past or scrabbling desperately for excuses to vote for McCain get this without having it explained to them. Our red state brothers and sisters, many of whom fall into Obama’s age demographic and most of whom are now against the Iraq war, understand it very well. McCain’s trying to use this as a weapon simply reinforces how old and out of touch he is. It’s rather embarrassing to watch, particularly since McCain’s own record on military matters, from his Bushlike embrace of Iraq to his vote against the GI Bill, is so tragically wrong and so easily used against him.

  • Continuing to suggest that the 50% of voters who support Clinton are nuts is doing more harm to our election prospects in the Fall than anything Clinton has said or done (this means you too Mark Pencil)

    Mark didn’t say all voters who support Clinton are nuts. He said you are, and noted that you’re a rare exception.

    That you would once again read criticism of you as criticism of all Clinton supporters is additional (at this point, unnecessary) confirmation of your tenuous hold on reality, which rather proves Mark’s point.

  • Clinton understands that and she is also immune on the issue because she could not have joined up back in the 70s.

    Yeah, true, but what the hell was stopping her from encouraging the lovely Chelsea from enlisting in this one?

    If this war was so damned important why wasn’t Mary Cheney, Jenna and Barbara Bush, and Chelsea Clinton on the front line? If you’re not prepared to sacrifice your own kids, then I’ll be goddamn if you’re going to take mine.

    (white/female/53, w/ 22 year old son)

  • Many Clinton supporters are disappointed because they really wanted a woman to become president and Hillary was their chance this year. I don’ t blame them for being disappointed or sad or angry. Given the choice between Obama and McCain I think they’ll choose Obama or stay home.

  • A lot of Clinton supporters don’t just place the blame at the feet of Obama supporters, but with the candidate himself. Obama and his national spokespeople have their fingerprints, if not their face, on a lot of what has taken place. From Rep. Jesse Jackson, Jr, coming out the day after NH to race-bait Sen. Clinton, to Obama’s “your likeable enough, Hillary” during one of the debates.

    Many Clinton supports see Obama, a father of two daughters, remain silent as his surrogates and supporters engage in this activity and wonder what kind of “change” is he REALLY taking about. His change agenda certainly doesn’t include ME if he’s willing to allow this to continue unaddressed.

    If Clinton supporters do not think the Senator is treated with respect as this contest wraps up, if Obama is the nominee he will have a lot of work to do to win their votes. And I would not be at all surprised if many just stayed home.

    BAC

  • Being relegated to non-combat roles in the military means the road to promotion is blocked. The 2% restriction also meant that women were found almost exclusively in clerical roles during that time period. If you do not understand this and consider this true parity, then you do not understand women’s issues at all — something that I think can be generalized to most Obama supporters.

    When 2 out of 6 methods for calculating the popular vote show Clinton ahead, it is not a sweep for Obama. It is a tie because there is no reason why the methods favorable to Obama should carry the day instead of those favorable to Clinton.

    My posts are little different than those of other Clinton supporters. I have seen a pattern where my votes are charaterized as insane in direct proportion to the anxiety they arouse here about Obama’s viability. You SHOULD be worrying about Obama’s prospects in Nov. It is the key issue of the campaign and won’t be decided by name-calling.

    If you’re going to ask why Chelsea didn’t join the military, you must ask the same thing about Michelle, but that is clearly silly. Chelsea appears to have no political aspirations. Military service is, however, rightfully regarded as a prerequisite to running for high office. Obama, however, for some reason believed himself to be beyond the usual expectation of military service, even in the absence of a war. Bill Clinton did not evade the draft. He was 1A but had a draft lottery number that was never called. There is no reason why he should have interrupted his Fulbright in order to volunteer, but he did not shirk his duty by taking exemptions or pulling strings, as Bush and so many Republicans did. As I’ve noted before, Hillary is not Bill and Chelsea is not Hillary.

    I am not going to vote for Obama under any circumstances. The smug belief that we’ll all fall into line maintains the rift, in my opinion.

  • Obama, however, for some reason believed himself to be beyond the usual expectation of military service, even in the absence of a war.

    Again, there is no “usual expectation of military service” and there hasn’t been one for decades. Like McCain, you are mired hopelessly in a bygone era, unable to adapt to current reality. Like McCain, your words come across as staggeringly out of touch.

    My posts are little different than those of other Clinton supporters.

    Just keep telling yourself that. Put your fingers in your ears and hum while you say it. No matter what, don’t ever stop to wonder why you can’t find a single person to defend you…even among Clinton supporters.

    Poor Mary.

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