Hagel smacks down Lieberman

It’s exceedingly rare for me to cheer on a Republican senator on one of the Sunday morning talk shows, but Sen. Chuck Hagel’s (R-Neb.) response to Sen. Joe Lieberman (I-Conn.) this morning on Meet the Press was truly entertaining.

Tim Russert had just finished asking Lieberman about the inherent difficulties in fighting a war without public support. Lieberman responded that there are two exit strategies: “One is called victory; the other is called defeat.” Lieberman proceeded to dig deep into his most cynical talking points.

“I think the consequences for the Middle East, which has been so important to our international stability over the years, and to the American people, who have been attacked on 9/11 by the same enemy that we’re fighting in Iraq today, supported by a rising Islamist radical super-powered government in Iran, the consequences for us, for — I want to be personal — for my children and grandchildren, I fear will be disastrous. That’s why I want to do everything I can to win in Iraq. And, and, and I think that’s what my, my oath of office requires me to do.”

Hagel would have none of it.

“First, as I said before, I am not, nor any member of Congress that I’m aware of, Tim, is advocating defeat. That’s ridiculous, and I’m offended that any responsible member of Congress or anyone else would even suggest such a thing. Senator Lieberman talks about his children and grandchildren. We all have children and grandchildren. He doesn’t have a market on that, nor do any of my colleagues. We’re all concerned about the future of this country. But we have an honest disagreement here, and that’s what democracies are about.

“Now, the fact is we can talk all we want, and we can go to all the specialists in the world, the fact is, the Iraqi people will determine the fate of Iraq. The people of the Middle East will determine their fate. Now, when we continue to interject ourselves in a situation that we never have understood, we’ve never comprehended, and I think after four years it’s becoming quite clear of that, that tells us something very, very clearly. And we now have to devise a way to find some political consensus with our allies, especially the people in the Middle East, that is going to require to find a political framework for some progress with the Israeli-Palestinian issue. It’s going to require listening to our allies in the Middle East.

“You know, Tim, I hear this talk about generals and military involvement. The two top American generals in Iraq in November and December, the last 60 days, both in open testimony and interviews took exactly the opposite approach of what President Bush was talking about on Wednesday night. Now, someone is, is not listening here. There is a major disconnect. And we talk about the future for our country. The future of the Middle East as a region is in play now at a very, very defining time. That’s what we should be thinking about. We need to get out of the bog of where we are of tactical thinking. Of course 50,000 troops in Baghdad are not going to turn that around. That is a tribal sectarian civil war, and we need to do everything we can with some smart thinking.

“Let’s just take one thing. Why not take American troops, put them on the border? I hear a lot from this administration about this border being porous, all the terrorists leaking in there. The terrorist problem isn’t the biggest problem today in, in Iraq. Are terrorists there? Yes. It is Iraqis killing Iraqis, Tim. It’s Shias killing Shias. That’s the biggest problem, that’s not going to be solved by the American military.”

C&L has the clip. It was a treat to see Lieberman smacked down so thoroughly. It had to be said — and Lieberman had to hear it. That the comments came from a conservative Republican made it all the more powerful.

Chuck Hagel has gone from diplomatically saying a little of what he thinks to plainly saying what he thinks. It’s about time someone boots all of Washington out its stupor regarding Iraq. Maybe the discussion will become a debate, and the debate become realistic.

  • I so much want to read of Joe Lieberman being run over by beer truck. The guy makes me want to puke. I can’t believe he was ever our nominee for VP.

    OT: Happy 40th anniversary of the Haight-Ashbury’s Human Be-In! I can’t believe it was that long ago.

  • It is necessary to watch the entire clip of Lieberman’s sermon on MTP to get the full benefit of the calculation behind his words. It served as a reminder that talking points that manage to embed in conventional wisdom or the political vernacular really never die. Joe unleashed such familiar zombies as “its a different kind of war” (sorry, Joe, but the conflict that your Dear Leader’s new way forward is ostensibly designed to quell has been around for a long, long, time) and “we’re fighting the very people who attacked us on 9/11” (Jesus, Joseph, and Mary! Joe, that one was debunked long ago. You and DeadEye Dick are the only ones with the stones to put that one forward anymore). He even brought out one of the Zombie Jr that opposition to the war is the result of anger people feel from seeing suicide bombings on the TeeVee every night. It was accompanied by the slightly more seasoned Zombie, “I wish they’d get angry because the suicide bombings show how EVIL the enemy is.” But, he really went over the top by “getting personal” and whining about his kids and grandkids. I imagine that his precious progeny are safe from being called to support the surge. He wants the kids and grandkids of others to fight them over there so his offspring can sleep at night over here. This is a craven and – because he is so often placed upon significant soap boxes such as MTP – a dangerous man. Hagel knocked Lieberman down, and I welcome his rebuttal of Lieberman’s shameful rhetoric. But, I long for the day when someone exposes the self-serving cowardice that is at the core of Lieberman’s political persona. He is neither honest nor honorable, and Hagel’s response only scratches Lieberman’s surface.

  • Lieberman swore on oath to Israel, and has yet to my observation ever placed the well being of the United States above that of its “homeland”. Lieberman is a traitor – an enemy of the American People, an enemy of the American Way of Life.

  • Great googly-moogly! It’s come to this. We now have a conservative Republican telling an (alleged) Democrat that dissent is responsible, patriotic and does not put one on the side of ‘the terrists.’ Can Lieberman drop any farther behind the state of public opinion? Can Lieberman get any farther to the right of the right-wing talking points? Was Lieberman dropped on his head as a child? Or as a Senator?

  • Those who see enemies behind every tree and want to strike out to protect the Fatherland homeland aren’t always the strongest or the most presient. Often, they’re just the one’s who’ve given in to their fears. Lieberman sounds like that to me.

    P.S. Those consumed with belief in the apocalypse will not only find signs that it’s coming, they’ll probably cause it to happen.

  • Thomas Ware is basically correct. Lieberman shows that he suffers from the “Holocaust Mindset” when he talks about “for my children and grandchildren.” Joe Lieberman is undoubtedly an “Israel-firster.”

  • We are in this stupid, ill considered war because of “statesmen” like Lieberman. We remain in this stupid disaster of a war because of “statesmen” like Lieberman. We will invade Iran because of “statesmen” like Lieberman.

    If the President orders an attack of Iran, will the military follow those orders?

  • Even so, both are missing the point. For an Iraqi, terror comes from the U.S. occupiers. They are the “terrorists”. Point of view is everything. America needs to learn to also externalise its viewpoint.

  • Wow – a cage match between “seriousness” and pragmatism. Great smackdown Chuck!

    Hagel gets what’s going on in the Middle East. The US used its armed forces like a hammer to smash Iraq and bring it under our control. Now that Iraq needs fixing, the neocons still want to use the hammer to pu things back together, Hagel knows it will only make things worse.

    The military is an extension of US foreign policy that is saner times should be used with discression. For Bush and his cronies, the military IS our foreign policy.

    Hagel’s comments point to two things: that “victory” in Iraq is being positioned as Iraq doing exactly what the US wants, but Iraq ultimately can and will determine what it wants, regardless of whether Bush likes it. Any nation will want to throw off the invader’s yoke, especially when you unleash the democracy genie. Second, diplomacy must be our first foreign policy option, not the military. Brute force will not accomplish the goals for a more peaceful Middle East. Winning is not about kicking ass over there, it’s about less ass kicking going on around the world. Lieberman just doesn’t get that.

  • Smackdown? That was a roundhouse punch in the face. And it couldn’t have happened to a more deserving person.

  • From the AP today: “I’m wondering if this is not some kind of tragically misguided notion of statesmanship on the part of Bush, that there is something noble about ignoring public opinion,” said Margaret Susan Thompson, who teaches a Modern Presidency course at Syracuse University’s Maxwell School.

    Apparently Lieberman has the same view of statemanship. Both stem, I think, from the reverence religions have for martyrs and “inspired” (aka insane) followers.

  • ***If the President orders an attack of Iran, will the military follow those orders?***
    ———————ml

    My reply to that would be “what military?”

    Everything’s packed up tight down south. To attack Iran, everything will have to be moved north. If there was an “agreement” between the Iraqi government and the Iranian government for a diplomatic station in Irbil that the US didn’t know about until recently, then there may well be other “agreements” that the US is not privy to.

    Another “if”—why would the Iraqis stay silent about US equipment-marshalling on Iraqi soil, if that equipment is to be used against Iran? Tehran will obviously know of any ground-moves against their sovereignty long before it gets to the Iranian border. There may be a mutual agreement to allow Iranian defensive strikes against “non-Iraqi” combatants—on Iraqi soil.

    The primary issue, of course, is that Kid geoge probably still thinks that Iraq is his personal sandbox—thus, part of the United States. It would, after all, fit into his jigsaw puzzle. Probably right between Extraordinary Rendition and trashing Habeus….

  • Notice how Lieberman continues to say that “the people in Iraq” attacked us. He probably will never explain why he says such patently false things, so allow me to translate. Whenever the family of a suicide bomber in Palestine would have their homes demolished by Israel (a collective punishment which is illegal under international law) Iraq would pay the family to reimburse them for their lost home. This infuriated the Zionists no end.

    Lieberman is for all intents and purposes an Israeli Likudnick. Some day he will snap and blurt that out in public, until then we’ll have to make do with the types of things he said today.

    Kudos to Hagel, but he’s probably not a true ally, more like a person who doesn’t want Bush’s war wrapped around his neck in November of 2008. I would thank him for his sane appraisal, ask where it was in 2004, or 2003, and then ask the voters of Nebraska to retire the good senator and elect a Democrat who will be against the next insane war, not just the last one.

  • Hagel’s grandchildren AREN’T JEWISH (or even more accurately, Zionists).

    Lieberman has only one real constituency, aside from the Rapepublicans who support him because he’s insane like they are.

  • Senator Lieberman talks about his children and grandchildren. We all have children and grandchildren. — Chuck Hagel

    Not “all”, we don’t; Condi doesn’t, bless her heart, poor soul. Shouldn’t Hagel be censured for making unprovoked attacks on Condi’s single state, the way Boxer had been?

    As for LIEberman… I’m happy to watch him spin and splice the rope; the day will come when it will be of use.

    And, while I agree with Racerx (@16) that it would be good to replace Hagel with a (hopefully *true*) Dem in Nebraska next time around, I’m glad it was a “*conservative Republican*” who slapped LIEberman down. As my Mother used to say: “we (Jews) can complain about mistreatment till we’re blue in the face and it will always be interpreted as whining. It is necessary for the *gentiles* to object, before anyone will start paying attention”. Same’s true about everything else; it takes an advocating voice from someone unexpected to become audible.

  • Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz, and Holy Joe should all be put in the same padded cell for about the next twenty years. Bill Kristol, Hannity, O’ Reilly, Beck,and Limbaugh too .

  • I’m always appreciative of Sen. Hagel’s comments. Too bad his voting doesn’t reflect how he talks off the floor of the Senate. He has voted with the President 96% of the time. He has railed against the war from almost the outset. Yet he has never voted accordingly. He voted against Levin-Reid as recently as this summer. If/when he actually votes against the surge/escalation/augmentation, I will cheer.

    As far as replacing him with a Democratic senator. I suppose anything is possible, but frankly there aren’t any viable Democratic candidates in the state of the Nebraska. The 50 state strategy will eventually pay off, but probably not in the senatorial campaign in 2008.

  • Actually, Hagel’s not up for re-election in 2008 (IIRC). At this point, we need as many people from his side of the aisle taking positions like this as we can find, because that’s how “not supporting the troops” becomes a non-issue. When Mitch McConnell pulls his filibuster over the coming approval of the “surge,” and Harry Reid calls his bluff, and 11 Republicans join with 50 democrats (Lieberman will vote the other side) and the filibuster is broken, the fact it is “bipartisan” is going to be very damned important.

    We’re where the anti-Nazis were in September 1938: it doesn’t matter if you’re an anti-nazi for being a Communist, a Social Democrat or a Monarchist. The point is to find a way to pull the rug out from under Der Fuehrer before he invades the Sudetenland.

    First things first: stop Bush, smash the Right. We can sort out how many angels of which type can dance on the head of a pin later.

  • A lot of good comments. I particularly like TuiMel’s . I also agree with Tom Cleaver that it is very important, as a general matter, to have Republicans criticizing the Iraq policy. It is even more important that Republicans smack down holy Joe, since Democrats unfortunately do not want to send him over to the other side.

    Here is an observation. It appears that Iran is country out of some Marvel comic book: “a rising Islamist radical super-powered government in Iran” Does anyone know what super-power Joe thinks Iran might have. Could it be the ability to make rightwing American politicians think irrationally.

  • Tom—I live in Nebraska. Hagel is up for re-election in the next cycle. His official stance is that he hasn’t decided whether he will seek re-election. He also hasn’t decided if he will seek the presidential nomination. However, since he has done little as far as visits to Iowa and New Hampshire, he would have a lot of ground to make up if he were to decide to go that direction. A couple of weeks ago, one of the in state republican blogs posted that one of the Omaha TV stations said he would not run for either office. The scuttlebutt around the state has been for quite some time that it is possible that he won’t seek re-election. We shall see.

  • Come see the debut of Start Making Sense, a new series that exposes the political maxim that, “with big suit, comes evasion of big responsibility.”

    Basically, it’s a rundown of the Sunday Talking Heads on TV. Talking Heads, big suit, stop/start making sense. Get it? (Cricket)

    The subject? Well, if you saw the talking heads on TV tonight, you’ll know that it was, of course, Iraq and the splurge. I call it that, any way, because Bush is spending human flesh like we splurge after we get our tax refunds.

    Oh, and I provide a blow-by-blow account of Hagel taking that lead pipe to Lieberman’s cadaverous body.

  • 60 Minutes…No president has ever been subject to such warranted abuse and taken it so impassively.
    Posted by: Michael7843853 G-O in 08! on January 14, 2007 at 11:48 PM | PERMALINK

  • An article that may be of interest to many is at the first link. Sharon warned Bush, the Arabs would not take to democracy, mentions Shrub and Sharon “held close consultations before” Shrub’s War in Iraq. Hussein being a threat was emphasized to Presidunce Dimwit, but supposedly, Sharon didn’t recommend any actions.

    I feel the briefings Shrub received from the counterinsurgency experts are the reason Shrub has been so heavy handed disregarding our Constitution. I’m sure it was impressed on Shrub that the Israelis were the experts on dealing with terrorists.

    Lieberphlegm has always been for Bush’s War in Iraq because it was supposed to eliminate Hussein and create an ally for Israel. Lieberphlegm will always support sending more US troops to Iraq and then to Iran, which is now viewed as the biggest threat to Israel. Lieberphlegm said he supported more troops in Iraq in December though Shrub didn’t officially tell Americans until this past Wednesday.

  • From Monday’s NYTimes.

    American military officials have spent days huddled in meetings with Iraqi officers in a race to turn blueprints drawn up in Washington into a plan that will work on the ground in Baghdad. With the first American and Iraqi units dedicated to the plan due to be in place within weeks, time is short for setting details of what American officers view as the decisive battle of the war.

    But the signs so far have unnerved some Americans working on the plan, who have described a web of problems — ranging from a contested chain of command to how to protect American troops deployed in some of Baghdad’s most dangerous districts — that some fear could hobble the effort before it begins.

    First among the American concerns is a Shiite-led government that has been so dogmatic in its attitude that the Americans worry that they will be frustrated in their aim of cracking down equally on Shiite and Sunni extremists, a strategy President Bush has declared central to the plan.

    “We are implementing a strategy to embolden a government that is actually part of the problem,” said an American military official in Baghdad involved in talks over the plan. “We are being played like a pawn.”

  • Fascinating.

    “Lieberman swore on oath to Israel, and has yet to my observation ever placed the well being of the United States above that of its “homeland”. Lieberman is a traitor – an enemy of the American People, an enemy of the American Way of Life.”

    This comment is so over the pale I don’t know where to start.

    1) Perhaps you should read the recent “Jewish Forward”. It turns out that Ariel Sharon warned Bush not to attack Iraq. But then that would be looking at facts.

    2) Picking out Lieberman as a traitor is clearly a despicable smear on a Jewish American. I notice the letter writer didn’t pick out Bush, Cheney or Rumsfeld as traitors. I won’t despair though; perhaps he’ll find Jews in their family tree and then he can call them traitors too..

    3) Lieberman’s position on Iraq is not representative of Jewish opinion on the war. By overwhelming numbers, Jews believe the Iraqi War was a mistake. By overwhelming numbers, they voted for Democrats in 2004 and 2006.

    I’m at a loss to understand the shrill focus on Joe Lieberman. While his position on Iraq is disagreeable, the facts are that he did not send our troops to Iraq, did not create an inadequate battle plan, did not mangle the occupation and did not devise this new plan for failure. He was one of 22 Democratic Senators to vote for the war. And while there is no doubt that he is virtually the only Democratic Senator to still support this mendacious Administration, it is also true that John Kyl and the other 47 (remaining sitting) Republican Senators enabled this President to single-handedly destroy our nation’s foreign and domestic policy. (Only Chuck Hagel gets a pass from me.) The focus on Lieberman – one lousy Senator – distracts us from the task at hand: to find a way out of this mad war in a manner consistent with the American ethics to which we used to aspire.

  • What’s wrong with Connecticut, re-electing “Whiney Joe”?! Lieberman obviously thinks that calling himself an Independent will keep him from going down with the rest of the Bushies. He is what he is, a neo-con hawk whose lip marks are forever etched on Bush’s behind.

  • What Al Gore saw in this looser to choose him as a running mate. I really don’t understand this. I want to throw up anytime I listen to this looser.

  • Re the comment that Leiberman is a traitor and his allegiance is not to America— made by Thomas Ware — All of the war profiteers who put these neoCons, the neoCons themselves, are traitors to America— and this includes the American Enterprise Institute crowd and those who put Israel’s interests above those of our country— on the basis of lies and motivated by nothing by their own greed. These are the traitors.

  • The morons who put this coterie of criminals into office, should also examine their own consciences.

  • I read our V P said —you cannot run a war by committee—-
    I believe you can’t win a war,with blunder after blunder

  • Joe “Israel First” Lieberman is a vile quisling and a Bush kiss-up, literally. He is a “man” cut from the same shit-stained swath of cloth as Bush. Neither of them gives a tinker’s damn about “the will of the people” or democracy, they serve only their own egos and their sense of entitlement. These “men” are a cancer on American politics.

  • RE: Lieberman responded that there are two exit strategies: “One is called victory; the other is called defeat.”

    This begs the question: which of these two does Joe think was chosen by President Eisenhower in Korea in 1953?

    Extra Credit: which of these two does Joe think was negotiated by Nixon’s Secretary of State, Henry Kissinger, for Vietnam in 1973 (not 1975)?

    Bonus: Under which strategy did Reagan withdraw from Lebanon and go to Grenada?
    Extra Bonus: Which of Israel’s wars have ended in total victory, and which in total defeat?

    Joe is an embarassment to the USA.

  • Hagel seems to understand foreign policy. I don’t like his votes on most domestic issues but it is refreshing to at least see one Republican put foreign policy/American security ahead of Halliburton policy/corporate profits.

    As for Lieberman? What a piece of garbage. Not a bone of integrity in that immoral man.

  • Leberman claims “we’re fighting the same enemy in Iraq as we did on 9/11” Not quite. Most of the violence is sectarian. Most reports indicate that Al Queda is involved in less thatn 5 percent of most attacks in Iraq.

  • Even though Hagel has no business being in the Senate (we all know about his Diebold corporate connection), I can’t find anything with which to disagree here. He comes right out and calls it a civil war. He reminds us that it’s Shias killing Shias and that we’d be better off protecting the borders so the Iraqis can hash out their differences internally.

    Of course, what Hagel also could’ve said is that the border is porous because we’d disbanded the Iraqi military, who later became the very insurgents that we’re even now fighting.

    Lieberman was revealed to be the asshat that he is and, as you guys say, Hagel’s words had extra heft because he is a conservative Republican.

  • Lieberman is despicable. Wasn’t he Enron’s number one cheerleader in the Senate?
    I aqree with every bad thinhjg anyone can say about him.
    But he does serve one useful purpose; he shows us how poor Gore’s judgment of people is — or was, at least. And he shows us how good our parties serve us. Remember tyhat he was a Democrat! But he won in Connecticujt by becoming the Republicans’ caandidate. We must destrfoy the two party systemm before it destroys us. Instant run-off elections would help.

  • I don’t know much about Hagel’s voting record, but he is THE spokesperson against this “surge.” In the Foreign Relations Cmte, he not only said this is the biggest foreign policy blunder since Vietnam, he said it proudly and confidently.

    It seemed to me that Dodd believed what he was saying, but didn’t seem to be that excited about it. Hagel, on the other hand, lit into Lieberman again with the confidence of conviction. Even his body language showed confidence. While Dodd and Kyl were fidgeting, Hagel was sitting tall and still.

    I’m sorry that he’s not a Democrat.

  • I’m asking everyone in the movement to refer to the gop as “the george bush party”–for example, if you refer to Liddy Dole [R-NC], please call her Liddy Dole, George Bush Party-North Carolina.

    Even republicans have come to say that the bushistas have turned their party away from its historic goals. Using this expression will help to divide these “real” republicans from the rambling wreck george bush has wrought.

    Could you pass this along, if you agree with my effort?

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