How Mukasey’s nomination went from imperiled to easy

When Democratic Sens. Dianne Feinstein (Calif.) and Chuck Schumer (N.Y.) announced late yesterday afternoon — usually a time reserved for the White House to dump embarrassing news — that they would support Michael Mukasey for Attorney General, it effectively ended any chance of defeating the nomination. It was disappointing for more than one reason.

There is, of course, the obvious disappointment associated with Democrats helping confirm an AG nominee who claims not to know whether waterboarding is torture. But it’s even more dejecting because expectations had shifted over the last 10 days. When Mukasey was initially nominated, his confirmation was a foregone conclusion. When Mukasey wrapped up his first day of hearings, the whole process became a mere formality.

But after Democratic senators began to appreciate the seriousness of the waterboarding controversy, it actually started to look like we might win this one. That’s when Feinstein and Schumer pulled the rug out from under us, which made the result all the more painful. Some of us started to get our hopes up that Dems wouldn’t cave in the end.

I appreciate that Schumer, in particular, was in an awkward spot — he’s the one who told the White House to pick Mukasey, because he’d be confirmed easily. But consider the rationale that Schumer came up with to defend his decision.

Schumer held a closed door meeting with Mukasey on Friday in which the nominee appeared to offer a crucial assurance: If Congress chose to enact a law banning so-called enhanced interrogation techniques, Bush would have to follow it.

“He flatly told me that the president would have absolutely no legal authority to ignore such a law,” Schumer said. “He also pledged to enforce such a law and repeated his willingness to leave office rather than participate in a violation of law.”

That might even sound vaguely encouraging, at first blush, before we remember the other reason Mukasey’s nomination became controversial — he suggested that the president can ignore certain laws in wartime if he or she believes national security is at stake. So, even if Congress was more explicit in regulating interrogation techniques via statute, what’s to stop Bush from circumventing the law, now that the future Attorney General has said he can?

Feinstein, meanwhile, is even worse.

Yesterday, the California senator seemed to argue that because Mukasey would be an improvement to Alberto Gonzales, he deserves support. Feinstein elaborated on that point today, in an LAT op-ed.

Judge Mukasey is not Alberto R. Gonzales. In our confirmation hearings (and subsequently, in writing), Judge Mukasey’s answers to hundreds of questions were crisp and to the point, and reflected an independent mind. That’s why I intend to vote to confirm him to be our next attorney general. I truly believe he will be a strong advocate for the American people.

The Justice Department is in desperate need of effective leadership. It is leaderless, and 10 of its top positions are vacant. Morale among U.S. attorneys needs to be restored, priorities reassessed and a new dynamic of independence from the White House established.

I believe that Judge Mukasey is the best nominee we are going to get from this administration and that voting him down would only perpetuate acting and recess appointments, allowing the White House to avoid the transparency that confirmation hearings provide and to diminish effective oversight by Congress.

I had the same response to this nonsense as Publius:

Essentially, the administration’s lawbreaking and DOJ-politicization have been so extreme that a candidate who refuses to call waterboarding torture is transformed into a “compromise” nomination. After all, says Feinstein, “he’s no Alberto Gonzales.” Boy, that’s a ringing endorsement. And sound logic too. Here’s a warm plate of tuberculosis for ya. Say what you will, it ain’t the bubonic plague.

Given our low expectations and mangled baselines, refusing to call Spanish Inquisition-era torture “torture” is now something a “compromise” candidate can do and still get through a Democratically-controlled Senate committee. But that’s the point. The Bush administration — and the GOP more generally — goes long. They push hard so that yesterday’s “extreme” becomes tomorrow’s “compromise.” And in this case (like so many others), the tactics have proven successful.

As an addendum, I’d just add that the White House said Mukasey would be better able to answer lawmakers’ questions about torture after he’s confirmed. That would seem to turn the whole process on its ear, but given the circumstances, it’s something senators might want to keep in mind.

As long as Democrats have only 51 Senators, one of whom is Lieberman, we’re going to lose every party line vote anyway. I’m disgusted with Schumer and Feinstein too, but the Senate is a lost cause as long as the Republicans continue to march in lockstep. And they WILL continue to march in lockstep. They are incapable of independent thought.

If our Republic is still here in January 2009, perhaps something of it can be salvaged by a new president and larger Democratic majorities.

  • I knew the Democrats would fold. If they think it’s because they believe the Republicans will approve the next president’s nominations, they’re living in a bubble. But it probably doesn’t matter. If Mukasey were not confirmed, Bush’s next nominee would also not “know” if waterboarding were torture at his hearing, too. Anybody Bush nominates will support his illegal agenda.

  • If our Republic is still here in January 2009, perhaps something of it can be salvaged by a new president and larger Democratic majorities.

    I hope you aren’t losing sleep over this Okie, I think the Republic will still be here in ’09. The real questions how much larger will the Dem majorities be if the Party continues to disappoint its base time and time again.

  • you know, i’d respect schumer more if he just said “i should never have been so effusive about mukasey because i’ve now learned that he doesn’t deserve the office, but because my senatorial ego is so large, i’m going to vote to approve anyhow.”

    that, at least, would have been honest.

  • It’s beyond sad what has happened to this country in seven short years.

    We always knew that some sort of societywide collapse–another Depression–could rip us away from our ideals. But for the most part we’ve just lost sight of our best selves through indifference and inattention. Our capacity for outrage died first, and our moral discernment seems to have followed.

    We’re a nation of torturers.

  • Congressional Democrats are in desperate need of counseling for battered-party syndrome and I sincerely hope CA voters give Feinstein time off next year to get it.

  • OkieFromMuskogee, a question: Why is it that Democrats in senate require 60 votes to get their way while the Republicans need only 40?

    The Dems could filibuster this nomination, but they won’t in the interest of comity. They’re genteel, don’t you know.

    In her statement, my own (utterly worthless) Senator Feinstein quotes Mukasey’s views on executive power. He believes a president acts most strongly when backed by a statute. (Feinstein apparenently thinks this is a good thing.) Anyone remember the Military Commissions Act? Expect nothing to change with respect to Bush’s torture policy under a Mukasey-run Justice Department.

    Feinstein should recall that everything Hitler did was legal under German law. Oh dear me! Am I comparing George Bush to Adolph Hitler? With respect to torture policy, damn straight I am.

  • What should have been so obvious to Schumer is that Mukasey gave him all those assurances because he knows what we know: there isn’t a snowball’s chance in hell that the Congress is ever going to pass any of these laws that Mukasey says he would be bound to uphold. Just isn’t going to happen, because Harry Reid has adopted the 60-vote rule, and there won’t ever even be a freakin’ vote. The legislation is DOA, and someone needs to find out of Chuck Schumer has an advance medical directive, because I think his brain has shut down.

    Feinstein? Can’t believe we have her around for another 5 years.

    Truly disappointing.

  • Two things getting little mention that make this all the more disappointing.

    First, in the past, when Reid was wimping out, it was often Schumer taking the case strongly to the public for the Dems. That is, Schumer has traditionally been one of our better street fighters. There was a movement at one point among the more feisty Dems outside the Beltway to replace Reid with Schumer because they thought he would be tougher. So how bad has it gotten when our tougher alternative totally caves?

    Second, WaPo had a predictably pro-Mukasey editorial yesterday, similar logic as Feinstein. But WaPo did make one argument that I have to admit hurts because it hits so close to home. WaPo asked whether it is fair to require Mukasey to declare waterboarding illegal when Congress – the body that makes laws – has not. Congress, as WaPo noted, has the power, and Dems have majorities in both chambers, to pass a law that very simply says the use of waterboarding as an interrogation technique is unlawful. Until Congress does so (and I understand that such a bill would be fillibustered, vetoed, etc, but WaPo’s point is still fair as a structural matter regardless of the political dynamics), it is a bit disingenuous to require that someone else take a position beyond what the lawmakers are willing or able to take. If Obama, Clinton, Kennedy, Leahy, and the others who made noise on Mukasey are serious, let ’em shut down government until Congress passes a law establishing criminal penalties for waterboarding.

  • Zeitgeist, the only quarrel I have with your calling on the Congress to at least propose legislation on waterboarding is that it’s already been deemed illegal everywhere else. I think technique-specific legislation might open up a floodgate of problems, wherein arguments can be made that because there is no US law that makes a particular torture technique illegal, that must mean it it still open to interpretation. And given that likelihood, whatever legislation is proposed ought to be an affirmation of whatever the various Conventions have deemed prohibited, and an acknowledgment of whatever the Supreme Court has ruled. Do we have to have a law now as the suspenders when we already have a belt? I guess this is what I mean when I say that we already know these things are illegal, don’t we? If we are signatories to every convention that regards waterboarding as torture, the only benefit or purpose in having the Congress involved is so that when a president like Bush decides not to honor those conventions, there is another hurdle he – or she – must get over, but a president like Bush just walks around the hurdles.

    I think this points up the problem of having a president who simply does not see himself as bound by any law, and who is happy to exempt those who report to him from the annoying requirement to observe them as well.

    Which brings us back to where we always end up, and that is that the only way to check this president is to impeach him, but with the stellar leadership of Ms. Pelosi, Bush will have the freedom to ignore any and every law for the next 14 months.

  • Glenn Greenwald said it best (as usual):

    “When Bush says: ‘9/11-AlQaeda-Terrorism-GiveMeX,’ Democrats always ensure that he gets “X.” The only variable is how they will do it, which specific members will ensure that it happens. “X” here was Mukasey’s confirmation, and Democrats are thus complying as always. At least the embarrassing efforts to pretend they were ever really going to block this nomination have come to an end.”

  • beep 52, the only way California is going to give Feinstein time off next year is by recalling her. She was reelected without any primary challenge in 2006, so we’re stuck with her for another five years. The sad thing is that the poll numbers are going down on Feinstein, Pelosi, and Barbara Boxer. Boxer is the only good one out the three, but she may be the one to pay the price for the performance of the other two next year when she is up for reelection.

  • I don’t care what they say or how they say it – confimring Mukasey for Attorney General, in light of the question of torture, is bullshit.

    Rationalize all you want, deep down you know that you are frauds if you claim you are doing your job as Senators of the United States of America.

    Betray us once – shame on you!

    Betray us twice – shame on everyone!

  • What jm said, above.

    Why the fuck is it that Mitch McConnell can use 34 or 41 votes to get *his* way, but Harry Reid can’t find 41, 51, or 60 votes to get what “Democrats” allegedly want?

    Either Harry Reid doesn’t have a caucus that’ll support him on party-line votes (or in any important confrontation with Republicans, though by *definition*, any caucus that includes Dianne Feinstein, Chuck Schumer, the Nelsons, and a handful of other conservative/capitulationist/attention-seeking folks, can’t be counted on in a confrontation, because “nobody” likes a confrontational Democrat)…

    Or Harry Reid doesn’t actually *want* Democrats to advance what the rest of us think of, as, well, *Democratic* priorities, legislation, goals, policies, issues, and attacks. (and yes, telling the world he’s going to ignore the hold placed by one of his own party members — while *honoring* the hold placed by an extremist asshole from the other side, in the service of protecting racism (google Tom Coburn Emmett Till senate hold Harry Reid) — does substantiate *this* cynical theory)

    Or maybe it’s both. Wouldn’t that be quite the serendipitous coincidence.

  • Screw all elected Democrats. None of them is good enough to snort pig snot. The only thing good about any of them is they’re not Republicans. Big Deal.

  • Anne, WaPo’s suggestion was less technique-specific than I made it sound. They actually called for a law limiting lawful interrogation techniques to those expressly authorized by the military field manual – which, it turns out, expressly precludes waterboarding. What is unsatisfying about that solution is that the manual can, of course, be changed. And I am torn between your concern, that I agree with, that we shouldn’t have to list and pass a law for each kind of torture (that backhandedly gives permission to sickly creative methods not listed), and the currect facts where there is, however unreasonably, a standoff between Congress and the White House over a very specific question. In that situation, Congress has the (theoretical, structural) power to decide the issue and break the stalemate.

  • I’m mostly disappointed in Feinstein on this. In fact, I’ve been quite disappointed in her of late: the original Iraq resolution and the flag desecration act, & (this year) May’s supplemental funding bill, the intellectual property bill, the extension of the PATRIOT act, and, most distressingly, the extension of FISA.

    Schumer maybe gets a pass, even though the outcome is disappointing: he proposed Mukasey, and apparently the White House listened to him and Mukasey started out looking reasonable, so I can appreciate his difficult position once Mukasey started to spout Bush mantras.

    As Anne said, waterboarding is not something that needs to be thought out or dumped on congress’s shoulders or specifically outlawed – it’s clearly a priori wrong and counter to our ideals, and it’s outlawed by international treaties that we have already signed.

    I’m hoping that a Democratic majority and a democratic president will produce better results than the current government because the Bush-Republicans’ ability to propose stupid ideas and morally incompetent appointees will be curtailed, so that much of this nonsense won’t get off the ground in the first place.

  • It should be pretty obvious why Feinstein, Shumer, and Mukasey should be on the same page. When the war on terror is put in it’s real context, the war for Israel’s security, all the common denominators are easily seen.

  • Pres PNACcio, that is a little too tin-foil hattie for me and here is why: bringing everything back to Israel all the time misses the fact that waterboarding doesn’t halp anyone’s security. That is a key part of the argument: not only is it cruel and immoral, it is for naught. So to assume Schumer and Feinstein went along for Israel’s security also assumes that they are as dumb as BushCo in believing that torture generates positive results. Unlike the Bushies, whose use of things like the “ticking time bomb” argument suggests they really do believe there is value in torture (and, they just seem like the type of twisted freaks who enjoy it), there really is no evidence of Schumer and Feinstein having t hat view. So the “Israel security” angle really doesn’t explain it, either. I’ll go with Occam’s Razor: simpler explanations are that (a) they are just lousy at playing the game or (b) they want to get along with the Bushies out of some inside-the-beltway party cool-kids table sort of cliquishness.

  • Maybe Chuck had an issue with a previous statement he made on the record in June 2004:

    ” And I’d like to interject a note of balance here. There are times when we all get in high dudgeon. We ought to be reasonable about this. I think there are probably very few people in this room or in America who would say that torture should never, ever be used, particularly if thousands of lives are at stake.

    Take the hypothetical: If we knew that there was a nuclear bomb hidden in an American city and we believed that some kind of torture, fairly severe maybe, would give us a chance of finding that bomb before it went off, my guess is most Americans and most senators, maybe all, would say, “Do what you have to do.”

    So it’s easy to sit back in the armchair and say that torture can never be used. But when you’re in the foxhole, it’s a very different deal.

    And I respect — I think we all respect the fact that the president’s in the foxhole every day. So he can hardly be blamed for asking you or his White House counsel or the Department of Defense to figure out when it comes to torture, what the law allows and when the law allows it and what there is permission to do. “

  • Disagree with this worn out GOP talking point:

    “Take the hypothetical: IF we knew that there was a nuclear bomb hidden in an American city and we believed that some kind of torture, fairly severe maybe, would give us a chance of finding that bomb before it went off, my guess is most Americans and most senators, maybe all, would say, “Do what you have to do.”

    And just how the hell would we know there was a nuke hidden in an American city? Because somebody like ”Curveball” said it was. So we should base out actions on what we hear from someone like him? It’s really time to put that dog away.
    Nothing but weasels hiding behind weasel words. Screw the repukes, and screw the chicken shit dems.

  • JRS Jr***That is an idealistic premise but it isn’t the reality. The ticking Bomb scenario is bullshit and the torture that is being used is being abused and always will be. It’s more a matter of ..”let’s see what this guy knows…glug glug glug” Stupid hypotheticals like should we put most of America in concentration camps if it means we can save a bomb from going off in NYC killing millions. Torture doesn’t work and it has been proven over and over again. If a terrorists knew where a bomb was and when it would go off he would just hold on till it went off. From the foundation of our country we decided we would not, under any circumstances, torture people. Power corrupts especially in the wrong hands and this administration has already proven without a doubt they have too many wrong hands.

    It is not “The Democrats” who are caving in…it is certain democrats. Seems we always have these few dems who over and over again vote like republicans. The rest of the dems cannot be held responsible for what a few of them do. Feinstein is a DC beltway insider in a comfortable position with a defense contractor for a husband who is making out like a bandit off the Iraq war. She has consistently voted republican and against her party when in committee. I was so disappointed to learn that she has 5 more years in office. By the end of her term it may be impossible to pull her head out of Trent “run for your lives the terrorist are attacking DC unless we pass FISA” Lott’s ass. She, like Pelosi, mislead her constituents and we are stuck with her at the national level.

    There is a list of these so called repubs in dems clothing that need to be gotten rid of and replaced with more progressive democrats. Democratic leadership needs apparently to be more progressive and intelligent as they are failing miserably on getting the things done that they were elected to do. Maybe Reid needs to pass some anthrax around like certain repubs did. I know it was repubs because they were the only ones to gain from it. (the un-Patriot Act)

    Those that use “we” in reference to our country right now are overlooking the fact that many of us do not feel this is our country, or that the leadership represents us. My America doesn’t torture, doesn’t start preemptive wars, doesn’t go around threatening other nations, doesn’t operate in secret crying state’s secrets to block all accountability, doesn’t corrupt the DoJ or the State department, doesn’t cause its citizens to live in fear and shame calling dissent treason, doesn’t steal elections, has representatives that defend the constitution, does not spy on it’s citizens, makes sure its children have health care, or give its wealthiest members tax breaks, doesn’t spend trillions on the war profiteers expecting my great grandchildren to pay for it, and takes action to protect the planet and its inhabitants from man-made environmental destruction. All of this comes from the past 7yrs., From the attempt to privatize the government and make a single party rule.
    These elected officials seldom represent me…do you feel represented by their actions?

    It’s not a democracy if the elected government stops listening to it’s people…like Diane Feinstein has done over and over again.

  • Senator Schmuck, er, I mean Shumer, is perfect evidence of why I think New York City should be sawed off of North America, towed out to sea and sunk, with all aboard. As a westerner I have always held New York as an abode of over-rated morons, and Senator Schmuck proves it.

    I can say proudly that the only time I ever voted for Dianne Feinstein was in 1969, when she ran for the Board of Supervisors in San Francisco for the first time, and nobody knew what she was. I am also proud to have been part of the anti-Feinstein caucus of San Francisco Democrats. How this bimbo ever became thought of as a “San Francisco liberal” is beyond me. She wrapped herself in the bloody sheet after the last real “San Francisco liberal” – George Moscone – was assassinated, never mind that George was planning her political undoing in the coming elections to get rid of the last of the old Alioto crowd, which is what she was, is, and always will be.

    Senator Schmuck and Senator Futz – birds of a goddamned feather. Thank god Howard Dean showed them up for the traitors they are.

  • R.Murtha/Earmarks, G.M. and fuelcells to China, Solar Decathlon

    There are good earmarks and bad earmarks,like there are good patriots
    and phony patriots, there is good and bad everywhere.

    To have the “new” Wall Street Journal , controlled now by Rupert
    Murdoch, attack R.Murtha for earmark abuse is just rich: we must
    remember when Rupert Murdoch was still an Australian citizen trying to
    get a permanent green card and citizenship in the USA and also trying
    to buy the satellites and TV Stations of Hughes and what now is known
    as Fox-TV,since the law did not let foreigners own USA TV Stations,
    the Congress, after massive ” greasing” ( the “super earmark”) ,
    changed the law as an exception only to Rupert Murdoch, so that he
    could buy the USA satellites and USA TV Networks under special
    provilege exceptions to the Rule of Law and still a foreigner,an
    absurd criminal and corrupt act that was the start of the collapse of
    GM, the owner of the Hughes satellites, and that later went on to the
    sale of GMAC,all the auto parts units from GM spin-offs, technologies
    like fuelcells moving to China ( as GM announced last week), etc.,
    etc., a total disaster to feed the Hedge Funds,advisers,bankers and
    lawyers in the orbit of Rupert Murdoch and his neocon Army, and DC?
    with their pants down and asking for more, what a criminal shame !

    so, before the new master of the WSJ talks trash about any
    politician, he must look himself in the mirror.

    and about the news this week (NYT,WSJ,WP,etc.) that G.M. is moving its
    Hydrogen Fuel Cells Research Center to China when they and the
    Industry are very close to solving key issues like on board-hydrogen-
    production, water-electricity-hydrogen, compression delivery and
    storage,etc.,etc.,and after getting billions of dollars from the
    Defense and Energy Dpt. in grants and tax cuts,is insulting, criminal
    and High Treason,but the stories are spin, they make it sound like
    wonderful news, when in fact they will train chinese workers and
    engineers instead of american workers and engineers, whats patriotic
    about that ? , never mind, the HedgeFunds and Bankers around the deals
    of GM in China will make billions from Chinese Govt. in exchange for
    GM to move its FuelCells Center to China,is a sweet deal for all of
    them and for the Board and top executives of GM,a sweet earmark
    indeed, since the ones in Congress that should be defending America,
    its workers and Taxpayers, are silence, and to make sure , they are
    about to confirm a neocon partner of Murdoch and all of them, as the
    new A.G., because Mukasey, as soon as confirmed,will arrest any one
    that complains against the abuses of any neocon, including
    Murdoch, and that’s a fraud and a crime against the USA Constitution.

    Just watch the House Foreign Affairs Committe Hearings,where Yahoo is
    being grilled for releasing names and e-mail’s of chinese dissidents
    to the Chinese Government, who put them in jail,but the Hearing,run by
    a partner of Mukasey and Murdoch,R.Lantos ,will not mention that the
    chairman and maximum responsible in Yahoo at the time in 2004 was a partner of
    them, Terry Semel,another neocon that made hundreds of millions in
    chinese deals in exchange of the “ratting”, the Hearings will put the
    blame on Yang and others to force Yahoo to take some neocons in top
    positions, a total corrupt fraud and criminal extorsion,but hey! are
    there any men in DC able or willing to stand up to this abuse or the one coming
    our way with Mukasey ? naaaaaaaa !

    …. another center of neocon extorsion
    is the FTC ( they look at commissioner Leibowitz and others ) where many are
    pointing out that Google is being forced to take directions, editing,
    and neocon filters in its boards in exchange of clearence to buy
    DoubleClick, and this is just the beginning of the neocon abuse.

    The confirmation of an orthodox member of a foreign religious
    congregation based in another country and under the religious and political-military laws of that other country , Mukasey , as A.G.of the USA is the worst criminal treasonous act
    in American History ,it’s the beginning of the end for the USA
    Constitution, and no one is doing anything about it.

    As many point out, the neocons are pushing Hillary and Barak, because
    none of them has 51% of the vote, so with an “accidental terrorist
    atack ” in 2008,the paranoia and Mukasey in charge will send the
    election to Giuliani,a perfect plan, and they will succeed,the
    american voter is too naive,the Media will control the fabricated
    message and the neocons in the new Mukasey Dpt. will make sure no
    one can use FREE SPEECH to warn the taxpayers.

    and then the real neocon earmarks will start…..

    —————————————————————————­————————————————

    Alternative energies to Asia,oil in the USA exclusively and the Army
    in the Middle East forever,brilliant!

    The wars in the Middle East would stop if the USA stops buying 8-12
    million barrels of crude oil a day from that area, and how ? with a
    massive hydrogen fuelcells plan, hybrids, E-85,biodiesels, solar,wind,
    geothermal and later fusion, as well as some, just some, nuclear
    plants , as well as liquid diesels from natural coal capturing carbon
    monoxide,so in order to eliminate this possibility, GM ,run by oil,
    just announced last week that is moving its fuelcells research and
    standards Center to China, the plan is perfect, all new technologies
    are being moved to Asia,leaving the USA addicted to oil and in need to
    keep the Army in the Middle East, to defend the israeli occupied
    territories, as well as to justify huge new Military and Security
    contracts, brilliantly stupid ! the USA taxpayers will never figure
    this out, they will sink America fighting against each other
    first,what a shame !

    After 6 years since 9/11/01 the Congress and the White House can’t work together to make America Energy Independent with all of the above local technologies,so much is still to be solved,and yet they will spend time and energy with an israeli-french leader that has called the president incompetent and worst, but hey ! he is a neocon, and even when his own country found out about his true colors and real interests after the election 6 months ago and now are very upset,in the USA they go hysteric about him…………and while a few days ago,when the best Universities in America were showing their own best Solar Home Technology just a few blocks away from the Capitol and the White House, http://www.solardecathlon.org/ , no one went to see them and their great work, many students and teachers could not believe the lack of interest in Solar Homes made in the USA by the new crop of solar engineers ,architects, designers, programmers,etc., that can mean millions of jobs right here, trillions of dollars for the economy and the path to Energy Independence for America ,Europe and the whole world , and almost no one went !!!! ……but a neocon comes to get favors and deals,and the whole town is about to bend over ! when the president of France was a christian , they didn’t even say hello to him, but now that he is an israeli-french and even when the 2 are against the war in Iraq, the neocon is the best leader in the world ? what a racist and criminal shame !!!

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