I watch debates, so you don’t have to

A couple of weeks ago, after a Democratic debate in Philadelphia, the media hype was unmistakable: Hillary Clinton had “stumbled.” She was “off her game.” She “waffled,” got “tripped up,” and “lost her momentum.” By any reasonable measure, all of this was wildly overstated — it might have been Clinton’s least impressive debate performance, but she wasn’t that bad. News outlets just needed something to talk about, and the “Clinton’s-post-debate-trouble” narrative was easy.

Similarly, those same outlets are reporting on last night’s debate from Nevada with a new narrative: “Clinton is back!” Actually, she never really went away, but apparently that’s not important right now.

To be sure, Clinton had a much better night than in Philadelphia. Two weeks ago, she was on the defensive; last night, she was on the offensive. When Barack Obama and John Edwards would challenge her, she’d return fire.

In just the first few minutes, for example, Obama said, “[W]hat the American people are looking for right now is straight answers to tough questions. And that is not what we’ve seen out of Senator Clinton on a host of issues.” Instead of defending herself, Clinton struck back: “Well, I hear what Senator Obama is saying, and he talks a lot about stepping up and taking responsibility and taking strong positions. But when it came time to step up and decide whether or not he would support universal health care coverage, he chose not to do that. His plan would leave 15 million Americans out.”

Obama, of course, insisted that wasn’t true, but the result was a substantive back-and-forth on healthcare policy. It was as if CNN organized a debate, and by accident, a debate broke out.

Soon after, Edwards took a few shots, and Clinton again returned fire: “You know, Senator Edwards raised health care again. When Senator Edwards ran in 2004, he wasn’t for universal health care. I’m glad he is now. But for him to be throwing this mud and making these charges, I think, really detracts from what we’re trying to do here tonight.”

What makes this interesting, I suppose, is that it was different. Clinton was no longer trying to stay above the fray; she was mixing it up. The media, apparently, was impressed.

But there was a limit on the audience’s tolerance for intra-party criticism. Last night we heard something unusual: booing.

This, for example, was a striking moment:

EDWARDS: Senator Clinton defends the system, takes money from lobbyists, does all those things. And my point is simply that people have — (chorus of boos) — no, wait a minute. Voters have those choices. Voters have those choices. They deserve to know that they have those choices and that there are, in fact, differences between us. But I think every one of us should be held to the same standard.

Much later in the debate, Obama and Clinton were clashing on Social Security and payroll taxes. Clinton suggested a change would lead to “a $1 trillion tax increase.” Obama wouldn’t stand for it.

OBAMA: And you know, this is the kind of thing that I would expect from Mitt Romney or Rudy Giuliani — (laughter, boos, cheers, applause) — where we start playing with numbers — we start playing with numbers in order to try to make a point. (Cheers, applause.) And we can’t do that. No, no, no, no, no. This is — this is — this is too important. This is too important for us to pretend that we’re using numbers like a trillion dollar tax cut instead of responsibly dealing with a problem that Judy asked for, and she said she wants a specific answer. And that’s what I provided.

For all the talk that Democrats expect the leading candidates to go after one another, this audience seemed to be saying the opposite.

Perhaps more so than in any other debate, the crowd seemed decidedly pro-Clinton. In response to a question about playing the so-called “gender card,” Clinton said, “Well, I’m not exploiting anything at all. I’m not playing, as some people say, the gender card here in Los Vegas. I’m just trying to play the winning card, and I understand well that people are not attacking me because I’m a woman. They’re attacking me because I’m ahead.”

It was pretty routine rhetoric, but the crowd erupted. I’m still not sure why.

Other observations from my notes:

* Obama has really grown as a candidate in recent months. In the early debates, he’d respond to every question with generalities, painting every issue with a broad brush. There were a lot of “ums” and “uhs,” as he collected his thoughts. He’d start almost every sentence with, “Look…” Not anymore. Last night, I thought he missed a couple of opportunities, but he demonstrated a lot of policy expertise. Gone are the generalities; Obama backed his opinions up with details.

* You know who had a good night? Dennis Kucinich. In the other debates, I could practically recite his soundbites along with him as he robotically repeated them for the 400th time. Last night, he actually sounded like a human being. When Wolf Blitzer noted that he was the only person on the stage to vote against the Patriot Act, he didn’t hesitate: “That’s because I read it.” He even mixed it up, effectively, with Edwards on China policy. It was the first time this year when I was marginally glad Kucinich was on the stage.

* Bill Richardson said at one point that human rights are, at times, more important than American national security. That probably wasn’t a smart thing to say. Chris Dodd followed up with the right answer: “Well, obviously national security, keeping the country safe. When you take the oath of office on January 20th, you promise to do two things, and that is to protect and defend the Constitution of the United States and protect our country against enemies both foreign and domestic. The security of the country is number one, obviously, yes, all right?”

* If most of the attacks were geared towards Clinton in Philly, most of the attacks were geared towards Edwards last night. He can reasonably make the case that this was a positive development — he’s important enough to go after.

* The last question of the night was whether Clinton preferred diamonds or pearls. I like the occasional off-beat query, but c’mon. Dumb, dumb, dumb.

* Watching the Dems debate is a reminder of just much more impressive these guys are than the Republican presidential field. These seven knew policy, cared about details, and engaged in substantive back-and-forth discussions, without mindless soundbites. If Dems are the New England Patriots, the Republicans are a Pop Warner team.

Ultimately, last night was largely forgettable. There were no huge mistakes, no knock-out punches. It’s hard to imagine the debate changed anyone’s mind about who to support.

That said, CNN was truly abysmally bad. I’ll tackle that one in the next post.

So, what’d you think?

It was pretty routine rhetoric, but the crowd erupted. I’m still not sure why

Hillary is far more impressive and charismatic in person than she appears on television, and you see it in the crowd response.

  • The only person on the stage to vote against the Patriot Act won the debate, that’s what I think.

    But then I still believe that the Bill of Rights is the law of the land.

  • So we learned three things this week…we learned that FOX News shills for Giuliani, CNN stacks the deck for Clinton and Amerika gets presidents from giant corporations.

  • I think most of us would rather the Democratic contenders go after the Republicans rather than each other. That wouldn’t fit into the media’s need for circus but I’d rather our candidate enter the fray without too much mud attached. That said, it is important for voters to know that Clinton is very connected to corporate money and the other candidates are not.

  • Every candiate gave a good answer as to who they’d nominate to the Supreme Court, by saying they’d select people who would uphold Roe V. Wade and respect the right to privacy….And this is reason in & of itself to vote for whomever the Democratic candiate is…

    I mean, it’s a rather frightening thought to think of the next Supreme Court justice(s) being selected by Rudy Giuliani, Mitt Romney, Mike Huckabee, etc…

    The state of the Supreme Court is at stake, & I want a Demcorat to make the next appointment(s)…

  • I’m not sure if it was intentional, but after flubbing a little in the last debate Hillary left the impression to Obama and Edwards that there was blood in the water. This time around she met their attacks with a few specific criticisms, but in general she seemed to plead for comity, which as Steve noted led to a lot of booing for the attackers.

    Well played.

    I think the desperation in the second tier (I’m going to call it that until Hillary no longer has a double-digit lead) was palpable last night, especially for Edwards. He overstepped with searing anti-corporate rhetoric despite how pleasing the concepts are to most Americans.

  • When you take the oath of office on January 20th, you promise to do two things, and that is to protect and defend the Constitution of the United States and protect our country against enemies both foreign and domestic. The security of the country is number one, obviously, yes, all right? -Dodd

    In Richardson’s defense, Dodd pointed out himself that the President primarily swears to uphold and defend the Constitution of the United States, and it is the Constitution and the Bill of Rights from where we draw our legal basis for human rights. I happen to agree with Bill, here.

    “Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both.” -Benamin Franklin

    I know this quote has been overused in the past seven years, but it has been and continues to be apt. I believe in this case that Dodd is advocating putting security ahead of essential freedoms and liberty.

  • Biden, Dodd, and Kucinich all impressed me last night. Dodd became my first choice several weeks ago, but I was very impressed with Biden last night. You had to love Kucinich’s “I read it!” answer about voting against the “patriot” act. Edwards (my previous favorite) seemed to be floundering. I didn’t think Obama was particularly sharp.

    I think Hillary is unstoppable.

  • I think Hillary is unstoppable.

    She has 2 of the 3 things needed right now. Money and the media. The only thing lacking are the actual votes. Given how tight the race is in Iowa (according to the polls), I don’t know that she has the third pillar yet.

    I still believe that the grassroots support of Obama could catapult him over Hillary when the elections actually get going. But if the media keeps playing the ‘inevitability’ of Hillary, then it will be very tough sledding indeed.

    Full Disclosure: I support Obama.

  • I am so sick of the Kucinich bashing!

    Even compliments are “back-handed.”

    Over and over again I hear how Kucinich was impressive at this debate or that.

    Over and over again I hear how Kucinich gets a spike in attention on the Internet after a televised debate.

    Over and over again I hear from individuals in person, individuals who seem otherwise rational and intelligent, say something like – Kucinich is the only candidate that makes sense, that is committed to the values and ideas that I can agree with, then in the next breath state the inanity that they will not support him.

    From my perspective all the other candidates merely offer different variations of more of the same.

    The public’s approval rating of the current Congress is low because they reject, in part, Congress’s insistence on giving us more of the same.

    Expecting different results, it is said, from the same actions over and over again is insane.

    Kucinich is the one who offers us something different and yet good people keep rejecting him.

    It is so clear to me what is going to happen and we really have no room to complain when we end up getting just more of the same.

    The insanity is simply breathtaking!

    I am no longer surprised at the extent good people will go in supporting co-opted candidates or corrupted systems as if they are powerless and totally unable to do something about it or even think about it a little. I don’t know why people are so invested in defending and preserving a system that at its best has gotten us to this point, but people, even people who claim they are dissatisfied, will fight you if you challenge their closely guarded myths.

    Why would anyone not be happy that Kucinich is running for President? What is it that he represents that is so frightening or objectionable? Doesn’t he speak for a lot of people? Doesn’t he have a worldview that represents hope and sustainability for human beings on this planet? What is the purpose of denigrating him or his campaign and to what end?

    We have started challenging every contradiction of thought when people who agree with Kucinich but will not support him – even in discussion. This had led to surprising revelations of disconnect that I believe only furthers the corrupted electoral system of ours and in turn the messed up world condition for almost everyone on this planet except those privileged few who seem to float above the fray.

    Every time the Democratic Party calls for money we challenge them to insist that Kucinich gets fairer (sic?) treatment from the media. These, surprisingly also leads to arguments – sometimes to the point of having the caller hang up on us. Now there’s an action that surely is going to engender loyalty.

    If we really want something different in terms of politics and how the world functions than we really do have to support those who will truly offer something different – more enlightened. Anything short of that has to be classified into the category of wishful thinking. Sometimes that can work out, but I certainly won’t hold my breath or bet the farm on that.

  • “* Bill Richardson said at one point that human rights are, at times, more important than American national security. That probably wasn’t a smart thing to say. Chris Dodd followed up with the right answer: “Well, obviously national security, keeping the country safe. When you take the oath of office on January 20th, you promise to do two things, and that is to protect and defend the Constitution of the United States and protect our country against enemies both foreign and domestic. The security of the country is number one, obviously, yes, all right?””

    I didn’t watch the debate – I find them painful – but this question seems to have got Republicanized. Richardson seems to have thought about it, but Dodd “corrected” him with a standard rah rah rah America America America answer. The purpose of national security is to protect the rights and lives of the American people. It is not a goal in and of itself. It is not a football game, America playing against a bunch of other teams, with victory as the primary objective.

    I would expect Dodd’s answer from all the Republican candidates except Ron Paul, but not the Democrats, who should have the guts to answer thoughtfully, not try to turn it into a who’s the most patriotic, who’s the toughest on national secuity competition.

    We’ve lost our way when we no longer know what all this national security is supposed to do, which is to serve us and protect our liberties, not the other way around.

  • Perhaps more so than in any other debate, the crowd seemed decidedly pro-Clinton. In response to a question about playing the so-called “gender card,”

    I can’t believe they asked her about that.

    When are we going to get some cheating-on-your-wife and cross-dressing and Bernie Kerik and Pat-Robertson-saying-America-brought-9/11-on-itself questions in a Republican debate? Those would be more meritorious questions- since the Republicans pretend they are out to defend traditional social institutions, and that that their home-life / backgrounds make them especially qualified to do so- than the fluff questions about how Hillary and Obama feel about the media talking smack about them.

  • “We have started challenging every contradiction of thought when people who agree with Kucinich but will not support him – even in discussion.”

    I agree with most of what Dennis says. But he is not my first choice for the Dem candidacy. Primarily has to do with his proven administrative/executive (as opposed to legislative) skill set and demeanor. Dennis is a great legislator, but he has tended to be a bit of a dictator in executive positions or roles, and has not always supported the will of the people when that will goes against what Dennis thinks is best. Nothing Dennis has done since the time he was mayor of Cleveland shows that he has learned this lesson, that as an executive he needs to be tough yet willing to listen to others and possible work towards compromise on issues for which there is no clear or distinct answer. Yet I like having him as a candidate, at least as of right now, and if he were somehow able to pull an upset and receive the nomination, I owuld vote for him, as would darn near everyone who reads this site.

  • Repeating something I said in a comment on another post:

    “Which is more important – human rights or national security?”

    Which one of your kids do you love the most?

  • “It was as if CNN organized a debate, and by accident, a debate broke out.” – CB

    It’s because of insights like that that I love reading this blog!

  • Carpetbagger said “It was pretty routine rhetoric, but the crowd erupted. I’m still not sure why.”

    Go to Daily Kos and read Los Vegas Discrace on top of recommended diaries list.

    I give no support for Hillary unless she’s the Dem’s choice. Darn, I hope she isn’t.

  • Thank you, EJ for a great post. I too am sick of people telling me they think Kucinich is the best candidate but that they won’t vote for him because he doesn’t have a chance. Best I can tell, the only reason he might not have a chance is because of mealy mouthed weasels like that. His popularity is astronomical among the liberals I’ve encountered on the net and among my circle of friends and acquaintances (even in Missouri).

    When I point out to them that voting for Kucinich in the primary is not at all risky business, they get quiet. I think that means they’re thinking about it.

    I won’t vote for Hillary, because I can’t tell what I’d be voting for with her. Somebody should tell her that people make left turns from the middle of the road and if she doesn’t pick one side or the other she just might get flattened.

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