I watch debates, so you don’t have to — Democratic edition

One need not be a campaign insider to recognize before last night’s debate in New Hampshire what the leading Democratic candidates were likely to try to do. Barack Obama entered the debate riding an Iowa-driven wave, and would stay positive while avoiding any momentum-killing gaffes. John Edwards was likely to take a few rhetorical shots at Hillary Clinton, in the hopes of making this a two-man contest. Clinton would want to highlight her competence and experience, and get in some digs at Obama.

In this sense, all three largely accomplished what they set out to accomplish. Obama showed a little more policy depth than he has in previous debates, and avoided mistakes. Edwards took on Clinton, characterizing her as the candidate of the status quo. And Clinton demonstrated policy chops while rolling out some new attacks on Obama. Was any of this game-changing? Probably not, but it was actually a pretty good debate.

Now, there was one exchange that stood out, and which everyone who watched will remember. Before getting to the clip, let’s set the stage. Clinton had just characterized Obama as some kind of flip-flopper on healthcare (it was, frankly, a bit of stretch as arguments go). Obama responded, and explained why Clinton was mistaken. Edwards jumped in, rallying to Obama’s defense.

“Any time you speak out powerfully for change, the forces of status quo attack,” Edwards said. “That’s exactly what happens…. [W]hat will occur every time he speaks out for change, every time I fight for change, the forces of status quo are going to attack. Every single time…. I didn’t hear these kinds of attacks from Senator Clinton when she was ahead. Now that she’s not, we hear them.”

Clinton, visibly annoyed, pushed back.

In a campaign season filled with Rorschach tests, this was a doozy.

On the one hand, Clinton showed the kind of raise-your-voice passion that she usually lacks. She was animated and aggressive, fighting hard to defend her record and highlight real accomplishments. By this reasoning, this moment was a net positive and nothing at all to be embarrassed about. For all the talk about Clinton being a “robot,” this was some real human emotion.

On the other hand, Clinton, some have argued, became too aggressive. The more she fought, the more defensive she became, and the closer she came to losing her temper. Immediately after the debate, the Clinton campaign distributed YouTube links to her best moments from the debate, and this wasn’t in the list … but the Republican National Committee distributed its own YouTube links, and this did make the RNC’s list.

Folks can certainly draw their own conclusions about impassioned vs. shrill, but I was struck by something Clinton said, not just how she said it: “We don’t need to be raising the false hopes of our country.” Regardless of tone or theatrics, that’s really not a positive message, particularly with a group of voters looking to be inspired.

Other random observations from my notes:

* WMUR’s Scott Spradling, the co-moderator for the debate, referred at one point to Edwards and Obama “double-teaming” Clinton. I’ve seen similar comments elsewhere. I have no idea what this is in reference to — Edwards went after Clinton, but I didn’t see Obama going after Clinton at all.

* I was disappointed that Clinton implicitly compared Obama to Bush: “You know, in 2000 we, unfortunately, ended up with a president who people said they wanted to have a beer with; who said he wanted to be a uniter, not a divider; who said that he had his intuition and he was going to, you know, really come into the White House and transform the country. And you know, at least I think there are the majority of Americans who think that was not the right choice.” In context, this was in response to a point about Obama’s likability. Someone can love Obama or they can hate him, but comparing him to George W. Bush is just about the ultimate in Democratic insults, and in this case, completely unfounded.

* Towards the end of the debate, Clinton dismissed the significance of speeches. Obama defended the power of language: “The truth is actually words do inspire. Words do help people get involved. Words do help members of Congress get into power so that they can be part of a coalition to deliver health care reform, to deliver a bold energy policy. Don’t discount that power, because when the American people are determined that something is going to happen, then it happens.” Richardson responded immediately afterwards, “You know, this is the kind of Washington bickering that the public turns off.” I have no idea what Richardson was referring to, given that no one was actually bickering.

All in all, I’d have a hard time picking a clear “winner.” John Edwards was as good as I’ve seen him in any debate; Obama was very good, presidential, and might have helped convince some skeptics who questioned whether he knew his stuff; Richardson was repetitive and disjointed; and Clinton did exactly what she hoped to do.

So, what’d you think?

I think she nailed it. Of course some bloggers and the media – as a whole, probably – will call her angry or whatever other adjective they think will dismiss her and her point, but she was right. What’s wrong with fire anyway? Nothing – unless you’re Clinton, apparently. When is this woman going to be allowed to show emotion? Or is the only emotion she’s allowed to display a demur smile? No. She was right and I have no problem whatsoever with a show of fire from her.

  • From watching a little of the Repub debate and a little of the Dem debate, it was clear the Dems were having a much better debate (see my foam karate gear comment at #9 on the previous post). Hillary seemed off her game, and like she was just going through the motions, almost. I think Iowa has taken the wind out of her sails.

  • * I was disappointed that Clinton implicitly compared Obama to Bush: “You know, in 2000 we, unfortunately, ended up with a president who people said they wanted to have a beer with; who said he wanted to be a uniter, not a divider; who said that he had his intuition and he was going to, you know, really come into the White House and transform the country. And you know, at least I think there are the majority of Americans who think that was not the right choice.” In context, this was in response to a point about Obama’s likability. Someone can love Obama or they can hate him, but comparing him to George W. Bush is just about the ultimate in Democratic insults

    I don’t think was a slam on Obama so much as the answer she has always needed to give when confronted with her own low “likability” scores (which is of course part of the context for the question) – and it is an inarguably accurate answer. “Likability” as a dominant criteria gets us drunken (or ex-drunken) frat boys who think the German Chancellor will dig his back rubs. And I know a lot of people who regret that Bush-Gore vote and who would be a lot more forgiving today of Gore’s “stiffness.” Yeah, it is a hard hit, but it is also the solid, fair answer to any question about likability and its role in an election.

  • Richardson just needs to drop out now. He contributed something positive to a few things, but contributed negatively to more.

  • In context, this was in response to a point about Obama’s likability. Someone can love Obama or they can hate him, but comparing him to George W. Bush is just about the ultimate in Democratic insults, and in this case, completely unfounded.

    Ah, come on. Obama and Edwards have done plenty of comparing Hillary to Bush. I don’t think that was what she was doing to Obama here. I think she was just saying, “Hey, you really buy all this ‘likability’ crap? It’s a job, you don’t have to marry me. I have to be just likable enough to interact effectively with the people I’ll have to deal with as the president, I don’t have to be Vanna White, and of course you should all realize that.”

  • I just find it amazing how thoroughly MSM ignores Edwards. He does well and he’s ignored. He makes great points and he’s ignored. His candidacy isn’t “historic” and thus denies them easy text.

  • Towards the end of the debate, Clinton dismissed the significance of speeches. Obama defended the power of language: “The truth is actually words do inspire. Words do help people get involved. Words do help members of Congress get into power so that they can be part of a coalition to deliver health care reform, to deliver a bold energy policy. Don’t discount that power, because when the American people are determined that something is going to happen, then it happens.” Richardson responded immediately afterwards, “You know, this is the kind of Washington bickering that the public turns off.” I have no idea what Richardson was referring to, given that no one was actually bickering.

    It’s a little subtle, but it looks like Obama was trying to make it look like he was differing with Clinton on things and had the right answers as opposed to her answers (I mean ‘speeches are good’ v. ‘speeches are bad’? Come on, who really cares, except for people who think there should be almost no speeches at al, instead just football broadcasts). This example was stepping a little far out on that plank, a little of a crass example, perhaps meant to annoy Clinton and throw her off her game rather than to inform. I think Richard picked up on it, and that’s what you were missing, but it was too subtle for almost everybody (which is why Obama can get away with provoking his opponent this way) so it was unnecessary for Richardson highlight it anyway.

  • My strongest impression from the debate was that Richardson is out of his league.

    Edwards’ language was the most aggressive that I’ve heard from him, and that’s what attracts me to his candidacy. Obama seemed impressive, but safe. Hillary is much better in this ABC format than she is when she is forced into speech-making mode standing behind a podium. I thought that she made her case very well.

    I still have concerns about Hillary’s unique ability to motivate the legions of Republican Clinton-haters. Except for that, I will be pleased to see any of the three of them win the nomination.

  • I actually laughed at Clinton’s reference to “taking on the drug companies” and also the insurance companies. Taking money from the companies isn’t the same as taking them on…

  • Come Tuesday she’s going to melt. It can’t happen too soon.

    Shillary IS the candidate of the bend-over-and-spread-for-Wall-Street staus quo.

    I don’t know why all you Shillary supporters keep working so hard to put another Republican in office. Her or her opponent.

  • And I think in the YouTube clip, Clinton had a great point, too. I mean, out of the frontrunner Democrats, any reasonable Democrat is going to try to implement Democratic policies, and if we can get those implemented it’s going to change the country and put us in a better place. What really makes anybody think Barack is more ‘changy’ than any other Democrat? His voting record? His policy proposals? Please. If you think Barack is more the candidate of changethan Hillary is, you are just buying into a fluff argument. Don’t exagerrate the significance of, say, Hillary voting for Kyl-Lieberman while the Repubs are basically in power and have all the ears of the media. So long as sincere Democrats take power and consolidate their power, there will be change. The real question is who is the best leader, and Clinton’s (at least implicit) message should kind of be that she really does have the best experience by virtue of being involved in her husband’s White House, because she knows what the job entails and she has a better job of the shrewdness of the political competition the President fights.

  • Obama and Edwards are a little focused more on just becoming President, and Hillary has a little more focus on what should be done with the power of the office.

  • Would like to hear more from Okie about why Richardson is ‘out of his league.’ His debate performance was not stellar, and never has been stellar: he is not a charismatic guy. But Richardson his background and experience are sterling. The guy is eminently qualified to speak to these issues and the next administration would be well served by his service, should a role be offered to him.

  • I listened to Dr. Dean Edell a few weeks ago. He spoke of a study that clearly demonstrated that women who show anger in the workplace are seen in a negative light, while men who do are largely seen in a positive light.
    I found a link at CNN about the study.
    http://www.cnn.com/2007/LIVING/worklife/08/02/angry.men.women.reut/index.html

    Discrimination against women is alive and well in the world. If it weren’t we’d have all the developed nations outraged at what happens to women in the less developed nations… and perhaps do something about it.

    I am a Clinton supporter. She’s powerful, smart and hardworking. I like her positions. And she has Bill as a close adviser. Bill won me over during his 8 years. Lousy husband, great president.

  • my 2 cents…

    i caught about an hour of the dem debate, but must have missed the exchange between edwards and clinton (utube clip above). from the clip, it appears to me clinton’s response is appropriate and forceful. altho she can come across as shrill, within the greater context of last night’s debate, i found her to be measured and thoughtful, with no hint of desperation.

    richardson, much as i (kinda) like the guy, used up valuable time that should have been distributed among the other 3.

    to me, edwards did the most damage — to himself. i found him to be shrill and overly emotional in his cries to help the middle class. his volume was always on “10”, and it felt like he kept sounding the same note over and over again. i don’t think new hamphire folk will respond well to that kind of pugilistic “now it’s personal – bring ’em on” kind of emotionalism.

    so it came down to obama and clinton as the winners to me. these two actually listened to the questions and replies, whereas edwards and richardson were completely wrapped up in what they were going to say next (sometimes needing the questions repeated). that’s telling wrt leading by listening first. obama was thoughtful as usual, and i felt he showed particularly good policy chops last night. i enjoy watching the way his brain works — it’s processing before the words come out. and clinton, as stated before, appeared seasoned, in control, and presidential to me.

    i think it’s a 2 person race now.

  • MAIN STREAM MEDIA ignores Edwards. MSM is in bed with the large corporations that run this country. Do you realy think that they MSM is going to defend the middle class in AMERICA? no! I trust EDWARDS the under dog, at least he defends the rule of law.
    Jim from TEXAS

  • I liked Clinton’s rebuttal, and of the three front-runners, she’s my third choice. The only problem was at the end when she talked about not raising false hopes. That changed her plea of effectiveness into a statement of legislative technocracy. For someone who is suspected of being too willing to triangulate, a statement of the need to compromise was not a good move. This is a JFK “going to moon” moment for health care, for the environment, and for foreign policy, not a time to call for half-measures.

  • I think all of the Democrats were stellar and tried to address issues other than America as a killing machine.

    Edwards reconfirmed as my favorite….because I think he recognizes and identifies the real American enemy for us better than the others. And I think he will be the most apt to counter it.

    Obama knocked my socks off again with his ability to inspire and his thoughtful intelligence. Rhetoric is his strong point and I agree with him that it is truly important.

    And although I have not been a Clinton lover, found myself thinking she could do it, and do it well.

    Richardson’s litany of past accomplishments irritated me a little more each time he repeated it. And I think he had some stock phrases that were also a tad overused (which might explain that remark of his about bickering …when they weren’t) But definitely a good man with a wealth of experience and good points.

    I reconfirmed my bias that the Dems are the party of love and the Republicans are the party of hate.

  • Edwards, Clinton and Obama each would make a great president. It is historic that America has a black man and a white woman who are serious presidential contenders. And I am glad Clinton defended herself during the debate. What’s wrong with her being shrill?! Edwards and Obama ganged up against her. I think America needs to be SHRILL after being destroyed by the Bushies.

  • In a game where “change” has suddenly become trump, Hillary (and Richardson) have their hands loaded with off suit cards. The convolutions of “I’ve supported change throughout my thirty years in government” will not resonate with the national mood.
    Hillary is a coat tail candidate when coat tails are out of fashion. Her impossible task is to convincingly flip flop on the essence of her qualifications for leadership.

  • Defi-“Hillary”-nition: Hope. If the hope you’re being promised isn’t coming from me, then it’s a false hope.”

    Defi-“Hillary”-nition: Speech. If the speech you’re hearing isn’t approved by my campaign, then it’s obviously meaningless.

    So basically what she’s saying is that anything other than what she’s putting out is “phony.” “Phony” hope. “Phony” speech.

    Now where have we heard that kind of tripe before. Maybe a fat, drug-addled, draft-dodging neocon mouthpiece for “the status quo?”

    Ladies and gentlemen—it’s Rodham Limbaugh!

  • I do not begrudge Hillary her right to stand up for herself, to defend herself, and to be angry when appropriate (but not an issue here), but I cannot bear the shrillness in her voice when she does public speaking. And it only gets worse in a situation like last night when she is angry (or seems to be). Do us all a favor and get a professional voice coach!

    And Obama is right regarding the power of speech and communication. Many of us want to be inspired and enjoy hearing it in speech as well as in other ways. But we also want to see follow-through,… and in Obama we believe that we have found both.

  • If you really think you should vote for Obama because “he is the candidate of change” and you are an intelligent, honest person, you have to realize that you are subscribing to a meme that was just adopted to distinguish him from Hillary, because Hillary (in the eyes of a lot of voters, at least) is older, has more relevant experience, and probably has more know-how. If you are directly competing with someone who has more experience than you, of course you are going to try to highlight change, either implicitly or explicitly, in some way, shape or form. It does not mean that this guy is the best guy to change things just because he says he is and because Hillary was already in the White House. The most important factor in changing things is probably effectively countering Republican opposition / consolidating Democratic power. I’m sure Hill and Bill would have changed things a lot if Republicans had not been able to oppose them so effectively, and if the media hadn’t given them so much stress, during Bill’s administration.

  • Wait.

    You actually mean she responded to being a force of the status quo with this:

    “We don’t need to be raising the false hopes of our country.”

    Wow.
    That just proves the status quo point in 20 point bold.

    That’s a no-class statement spoken with crass.
    She needs to stay in senate shuffling amendments and appropriations.
    She lacks both the vision and voice to lead our country.

  • In some ways, unless he is really now running to be Obama’s VP, I diagree with Edwards’ strategy. I agree that he needs to get it to a two-person race so he can get any attention at all. I agree that Clinton can be knocked out more quickly than Obama due to Iowa. I agree that the electorate is expressing a strong desire for change. So far his campaign and I agree on the premises. His conclusion, however, is to go for speed over need.

    The two person race Edwards needs is against Clinton, not Obama. If he knocks Obama out, now Edwards is the change candidate and HRC is the “not change” candidate (plus Edwards can take advantage of CDS by being “not Clinton.”)

    If he knocks Clinton out, however, he now has to fight for the “change” mantle against Obama who has a lead in public perception as the change candidate (per the polls at least), who has Clintonesque pots of money, who has momentum, and who as a matter of identity represents change much more than a failed candidate from the last election. Moreover, I think that if they are both pushing change but one is doing it with optimism and the other is doing it with anger, no matter how angry at BushCo I may personally be it seems pretty clear that change+optimism is carrying the day. (Moreover, by defending Obama from Clinton’s attacks, he then has the trick of having to pivot and attack the person he was defending once Clinton is out. Tough manuever.)

    So it does Edwards no good to turn it into an Obama-Edwards race.

    If he is running VP, I’m not sure that works because Obama’s hopeful message would be underminded by adding “the angry white guy” to the ticket. It also adds no experience, since that will continue to be an attack on Obama in the general.

    Which leaves only that Edwards harbors personal animosity against HRC, or more of it than toward Obama, but that theory is a bit questionable after how harshly Elizabeth went after Michele Obama last week in Iowa.

    I like John, I like his positions, I like his populism, but it saddens me that the Edwards’ seem to have gone into scorched earth mode.

  • When Edwards, with emotion and conviction, asked who was going to speak for the middle class – when were they going to be heard? – I thought that was a great moment, because I think it echoes what a lot of people think and feel. We, the people, are the ones who cast votes, but it is the corporations and lobbyists, because of their infinitely deep pockets that make it possible for the majority of these campaigns to keep going, who have the ear and attention of those elected. Somewhere along the line, this became a game of musical chairs, and we lost our seat at the table.

    What Edwards may be doing is making it easier for the voters to see that Clinton is the odd-person out, which directs their attention to choosing between him and Obama, and then it is a case of voters deciding which of them will best be able to effect change. And, it’s also possible that the two of them together will begin to be seen as a knockout Pres/VP combination. John Edwards would likely have to be the guy in the #2 slot, but there’s nothing wrong with being a sitting VP and a presumptive nominee in 8 years – he’ll only be 62.

    What Richardson did with his own emphasis on experience was diminish whatever power Clinton wants to ascribe to her own experience. Why? Because he sounded whiney about it, he looked terrible and tired. Yeah, I know they were all tired, but of the four of them, Edwards looked least like he was wondering if he could sleep with his eyes open.

    All in all, I thought the contrast between the two debates – for anyone who watched them in total – was like the difference between the kids’ table at Thanksgiving and the adults’ – the Republicans were like kids bickering, McCain was just plain mean, and it seemed like any minute, the whole thing was going to devolve into a free-for-all of “I know you are but what am I?” and “are not – are too” mud-slinging.

  • Watching both the GOP and Demo debates last night I became afraid that if I had heard the word “change” just a few more times my head would have exploded.

    The rush to steal Obama’s fire by all involved seemed, in its sheer desperation, to more fully anoint Obama as the man who had captured the moment and who was, at least for that moment in time, unassailably at the forefront of the race.

    On the experience angle, all I can say is that the candidate who is making the most of her experience is the one who — based on my appreciation of that experience — would be least likely among get my vote among the Democratic front runners.

    [Full disclosure: I am one of those disaffected Republicans who has finally left the GOP. Let’s face it: it’s not the party of Lincoln and Teddy Roosevelt any more — and hasn’t been for a long time.]

  • Will someone please tell Hillary that she was not president or a member of the administration during Bill Clinton’s tenure. I realize that she was first lady; however the only policy initiative that she headed up (healthcare) was a flop. No it was not a flop because of lacking in its structure and policy plan. The healthcare initiative failed because Hillary could not structure a message to sell it to voters. Bill Clinton even says this in his book when he notes that via the polls every voter seemed to want the aspects outlined in the healthcare plan, yet when the voters were asked specifically about Hillary’s proposal they were against it.

    Hillary has limited chance of becoming President. If she does, the country will suffer. We will have a divided 51/49% government and nothing will be able to get done.

    Lets move past this time in our history, the Clinton-Bush era, and pick a better candidate. Someone that is truly a uniter and not a divider.

  • “We don’t need to be raising the false hopes of our country.”

    Oh boy! And what are the “false hopes” HRC? Defined only by what you think you can get done if elected President?

    This is a comment by a person that does not have either a vision or any leadership capabilities whatsoever as is exactly why people don’t want her to be President. As far as I can see, her vision of America in 4 years time is we’ll be still fighting for universal healthcare because the naughty Rethugs don’t want to help me; we are still in Iraq because the naughty Rethugs wont let me get out, etc, etc. No vision, no hope. And she and her followers wonder why everyone is not joining her bandwagon?

    Of course whoever gets elected will have a tough time changing anything, but America is ready for someone who has the vision and willingness to try, and it isn’t Hillary. I’ve seen many corporate “leaders” like her trying to work out what the hell to do now they find themselves at the top because they have no vision and can’t communicate where we need to be. This is the last thing America needs after the last idiot.

  • I commented on that exchange on my blog as soon as I heard about it; I got the impression that Obama–and Edwards I suppose (I wasn’t aware of Edward’s defense at the time–were interested in a rhetorical practice that is meant to impart information without presupposing expertise on the listener. To that effect, the commenter “Swan” is correct when he says Obama is putting forth a meme to which listeners subscribe or dismiss. It comes from Aristotle, and I’m sure Obama encountered theories of the type while he taught at the UC Law School, as one of his colleagues is an expert on Aristotle and politics (Martha Nussbaum). The thing is, though, that this “meme” is supposed to carry an implicit logic: “other Democrats may have some great ideas on how to help the country, but they consistently lose when it comes to making those ideas popular causes.”

    (Shout my anti-spam response be a sentence?)

  • Here’s an argument against Obama and for Hillary that should be just as persuasive to people who have been persuaded by the changiness argument:

    Obama in the hand is worth nobama in the bush.

    See? It’s just as vacuous as a lot of the things Obama frequently says.

    Am I saying that Obama is a bad candidate? No.

    But come on- Hillary says speeches aren’t all that matters, and then Obama tries to turn that into “Hillary is against language, and I’m for language”???

    In the abstract- separated from the context of personalities- who do you really support when they take these positions? Whose tactics are the ones you would agree more with if they were being used by other people, instead of in a context where you’ve already been drawn to Obama side by an empty-headed meme? Which candidate would you think was more substantive, and which was running more on smoke and vapors?

    All opponents of Hillary really have to distinguish Obama from Hillary is stuff like the comment at #24 mentioned- a meaningless, isolated mini-gaffe.

  • A Clinton “town hall” aired on C-SPAN yesterday, and I was little short of blown away: it really showed her at her best. She took all questions and had excellent answers–even the ones I disagreed with were delivered with detail and respect for the questioner. She tied specific anecdotes back to general policy concepts and, it seemed, connected emotionally with her audience. There were implied criticisms of her opponents, but they didn’t come off as nasty.

    Unfortunately for Hillary, very little of this translated to the debate. She was fine on the policy specifics, as usual–but on stylistic grounds she was a disaster, and like it or not that’s what the non-obsessive voter sees and responds to. She came off as imperious, angry, and palpably frustrated (“I am change!”) glaring at Obama and Edwards.

    I don’t think Obama had a great night either. He seemed exhausted to me–as did Clinton, but maybe even more so–and that “you’re likable enough” line was obnoxious. But for the most part he seemed cool and collected; I doubt he did himself much damage.

    Honestly I thought Edwards was probably the best–though I’m personally sick of hearing him say the same things every time he gets in front of the mic, I’ve probably heard that stuff a lot more than the non-obsessive campaign watcher. Presumably it works for him.

  • Overall, I felt Hillary won the debate. I was though, also troubled by her comparing Obama to Bush – in Dem circles, it’s about the worst thing she could have called him, and I don’t think there is a knowledgeable person out there who believes Barack Obama is just like George Bush. Not only do they not share political philosophy, Obama is a self-made man, where Bush relied on his father’s connections; Obama has a very high intellect and a broad view of the world, where Bush is an incurious and weak intellect who had never even visited Europe before he became President; I could go on… I just felt it was really a low blow and a completely inaccurate comparison.

  • dajafi, i saw part of the town hall as well and thought she did well, but I really think the difference now for (as you make a great point) the non-politics-obsessed voter is something I mentioned in a thread yesterday or Friday: she needs to come up with a broader vision in which to encase her discrete points.

    the reaction of the obsessive versus non-obsessive is an interesting aspect. my wife did not think Obama’s Iowa victory speech was all that like the rest of the world seemed to (I didn’t see it; i was at the computer watching the numeric details come in). when we got discussing it, she noted “it really wasn’t anything different than what I’ve heard him say a dozen times – he assembled much of it by numbers and added some new material to tie it together and end it.”

    and that is the cynicism of the obsessed and over-exposed. we started recollecting the Obama/Clinton/Edwards speeches, the predictable sections, themes and lines, and we got to where we could give the speeches in shorthand – three or four words representing 3-4 minutes of speech – and know exactly what the other was referring to. we quickly realized how incredibly unusual we are as an audience; it is hard at that point to even guess how a “casual” observer just now tuning in reacts to the campaigns.

  • Algernon @ #13:

    Why was Richardson out of his league? I second CB’s comments about him in his post, as well as the comments at 4,15,18, and 26 . I’m not the only one.

    That isn’t to say that Richardson isn’t a capable guy who could be a real asset in a Democratic administration. But I’m not looking for a president who is primarily a good manager. I’m looking for a president who will be a great leader. Richardson falls short in that department, and to a lesser extent so does Hillary. They are both charisma-challenged, IMO.

  • Bill was a liberal Republican in moderate Democratic clothing. Hillary is just plain Republican. Hillary has been down so long with corporate interests that she thinks she’s up with “progressives” (with apologies to Richard Farina). Imperial Hillary has been supporting the Royalist Imperialist Bush for the last seven years; what more do we need to know about her? Hillary will have melted down in the cold of Iowa and the even-colder of New Hampshire… Hill the Pill is going down…

    CNN is going to replay the GOP and Dem debates supposedly on Sunday, 6 January 2008 at 7 PM eastern (and 4 PM, western) for gluttons for punishment.

    Cheers.

  • I just wish Obama’s broad view of the world had extended to him taking seriously his chairmanship of the Foreign Relations subcommittee on Europe, enough to take some trips to the countries whose alliances and cooperation we so badly need going forward, and have a hearing or three in the last year, but he didn’t.

    As they were discussing the nuclear weapons problem, I would have liked for that to have been raised, as much because I would like an answer as because I question how credible someone is on the subject of working with European leaders who hasn’t applied himself to that effort in the leadership position and opportunity he’s had.

  • james k. sayre, I don’t think many of the things Hillary has spent her life working for would put her in the Republican camp, but it is fashionable these days to say so.

  • “We don’t need to be raising the false hopes of our country.”

    This really got under my skin. Not to mention the shrillness with which it was uttered. WHo is she to talk so condescendingly about “our country” and its foolish, naive hopes. It seemed so selfish – demoralize the people just to win an election. Thanks a lot.

  • I don’t think Clinton was necessarily comparing Obama to Bush, but rather the voter’s response to the candidates – superficial and perhaps not very thoughtful.

    Whether we want to admit it or not, many people found Bush as inspiring to them as those who are inspired by Obama. These kinds of reactions are not reliable or relevant, can be dangerous and the media should not get so involved with this nonsense.

    Frankly I could care less about “likeability” and I guess in some perverse manner that quality, at least in American politics, can segue into “inspiring,” but doesn’t necessarily lead us to “trust.”

    I wish there was more talk about “honesty” and “trust.”

    Of the three Democratic frontrunners – I don’t trust any of them very much.

    Personally, if I talk about trust combined with shared values, I still have to keep going back to Kucinich. See how far that goes in terms of generating interest, money, coverage or inclusion.

    Of the three frontrunners they all have their good and bad points, but let’s be honest they all, to various degrees are beholding to forces that don’t necessarily have our best interests at heart, mind, spirit, or motivation.

    I’m suspicious of all of them for different reasons. I must keep that in mind because on the surface I am more inclined toward Obama’s style, and Edward’s (the ex personal injury lawyer) fighting spirit but they both could prove to be superficial in this context.

    The constant seems to be that every election cycle I’m simply left with anger and frustration because it always seems that these are the inadequate choices we are left with as the truly honorable, decent, inspiring, unquestionably ethical and honest candidates seem to be nowhere to be seen or are driven away by disinterest or intimadation.

  • CLINTON = EXPERIENCE…OBAMA = HOPE!

    CLINTON/OBAMA = DEM’S (& America’s) STRONGEST ’08 TICKET?

  • Towards the end of the debate, Clinton dismissed the significance of speeches.

    Said the worm to the butterfly.

    If Hillary had any ability to inspire instead of saying this:

    We don’t need to be raising the false hopes of our country.

    She would have said:

    Ask not what you can do for your country,
    and ask not what your country will do for you…

    But she didn’t say the latter…
    Because she doesn’t have a whisper of poetry in her.
    She bleeds bureacratese and stinks status quo.

    She really needs to have a gavel in her hand holding endlessly boring committee meetings over endlessly boring government loose ends.

    The Senate is a good place for worms.
    But a bad place for skylarks.

  • Edwards is definitely our third choice.

    He was eager to become president, and he made a few statements about how his being a white male would help his electibility that should, if anything, have been kept private. If he is either the front-runner or a running mate, these statements will be used over and over by the media and by the Republicans to undermine independent/moderate support, and to make us look bad with racial minorities, which will make them less likely to come out for us.

    Of course, Edwards was not trying to say “I’m white and therefore people will vote for me more and that’s the way it should be“; he was just making a real practical argument that we’re in real scummy times, we need to get a Democratic president elected, and that his personal characteristics, like it or not, would help him get elected. At worst, he was cynically, partially hoping the white Democrats he talked to in rural states had a little dislike or distrust of blacks he could exploit- but that he would be exploiting for a good cause, towards the ends of racial equality, and towards everybody’s good, both black and white. But this does not mean that racial minorities will see it this way, or that other people will see it that way. It is just not as easy or quick to explain as many unpoliticized or unintelligent people (as a lot of voters are, regardless of their background) need things to be sometimes when so many American voters are (unfortunately) just not that interested in politics.

    Out of the three, Edwards is the one who is a little gaffetastic.

  • I didn’t watch the debate, but regarding the video clip of Hillary, I think it comes out slightly as a negative for her. She started out well, but think she over-stated her case and started to get shrill-sounding. I mean, it’s nice that she can cite some things she did for healthcare, but to pretend like the two things she mentioned count towards a career of change? And then her part about not wanting to raise false hopes sounded really bad, making her sound like the elderly school principle chastising the young school teacher for attempting to reach out to inner-city youths. In every case, people will support the young teacher raising false hopes over the elderly establishment person fighting against them. If this was a movie, Hillary would have been the bad guy.

    Overall, I think we were seeing a bit of fantasy thinking on Hillary’s part. She knows that the political world put real limits on what she could do, but we were seeing a bit of what she wishes she had done. Perhaps she did all she could do for change, but her claim of thirty-five years of change is simply fantasy. Hearing that made me feel sorry of Hillary, because she wasn’t able to do what I’m sure she once intended to do; but it didn’t make me want to vote for her.

  • It’s unfortunate that the Democrats have been set at odds so much when we really need them to be working together. They even need to be seen to be working together- I think the Democrats are accomplishing this a little in what they are saying at events and in debates, but are falling a little short. Hillary’s message should be, “Obama and Edwards are great, but I should lead this right now. They will get their turns later.” She basically has to say that she’s first in line, that we’re going to space out our good candidates so that we have the best person we can to run for the highest office in every race for as long as we can- not deploy people so there might only be someone weaker running eight years from now.

    I think Edwards may have made himself kind of toxic waste by saying that stuff about his being white. Whenever people want to start bringing it up a lot again, they can. It was rash and ill-advised. He has sad a lot of other good stuff and responded to many things well, so it’s unfortunate.

  • Perhaps she did all she could do for change, but her claim of thirty-five years of change is simply fantasy. Hearing that made me feel sorry of Hillary, because she wasn’t able to do what I’m sure she once intended to do; but it didn’t make me want to vote for her.

    Things sometimes take a long time. People fought slavery for a long time before it was outlawed. Dems have to keep getting up to the plate and swinging until everything comes together. The older you get, the more you realize that many of the things we want take the scale of generations to accomplish, not a single fortunate stroke like we often think or act as if they should. There are a lot of ignorant people in this country. Liberals have to think about ways to educate and convert the ignorant people who not only don’t understand our policies, but have false and wildly distorted impressions of the people who advocate those policies. That’s a hell of a lot to work against, and we’re not really doing anything right now to strike at that root of our problems.

    They say that you can’t kill ideas, and it just may be that some stupid ideas are almost as durable as smart ones. We just can’t count on time or demographic shifts to take care of these problems without our active participation.

  • I did not get to watch the debates last night but for what its worth here is my 2 cents. I am not sure of which candidate i will support, might be a dem or a rep. I do live in New Mexico and will tell what I know of Richardson. He actually came to my doorstep one afternoon about 15 years or so ago while he was running for congress. He is a very likable guywe talked for about tem minutes and after waeds he let me with a good impression. However over the years he has become known as King Bill around here. He did get re-elected in a landslide here as Govenor but only because he was the lesser of two evils. No one worthwhile ran agaisnt him.
    With that said, if you want someone in office who does not even try to act like he was elected by the pepole and is just out for himself and his own cronies he is your man. If you want his ram it down your throat style of government he is your man
    nuff said, Thanks

  • I thought Hillary nailed it! And I disagree with your take on this line: “We don’t need to be raising the false hopes of our country.” I applauded that line, because I’m tired of hearing candidates promise the world, when they probably know in their hearts they can’t deliver.

    It would be wonderful if Obama’s kumba yah approach to the world would work, but I’m not sure he fundamentally understands foreign policy, and what is important to make it work. Look at his response about going after Osama in Pakistan. He simply said he would attack. Only Clinton noted the need to inform Pakistan of an incoming attack, to prevent Pakistan from thinking they might be under attack from India. Pakistan has nuclear weapons. It seems reasonable to think if they thought they were “under attack” they might use them. I’m not sure Obama thought of this.

    BAC

  • I remember reading a quip about the French Revolution. They overthrew the King and beheaded him, but the day after they still had the same wife, the same job and the same neighbors. Everything changes; everything stays the same.

    Obama speaking of change is heady. He has all the right cadences of a true believer.

    Hillary will be an effective leader. I’m just not sure I’ll appreciate where she’ll lead us.

    Edwards is a fighter and smart. All successful trial attorneys are.

    My vote is still with Edwards but the tiny part of me which still believes in miracles leans toward Obama.

  • And when I’m apologizing for Edwards a little bit in my comment, I’m not saying that I agree with him that it’s alright to try to exploit racism for our ends in this particular instance. I’m just acknowledging that there is a real argument to be made that it is alright in this instance.

    Would you go under-cover as a neo-nazi to help destroy the neo-nazi movement? You might have to say or do a few things that could promote racism, but if you end up putting a lot of neo-nazi leaders in prison where maybe they can’t be as influential, it might be worth it. What Edwards wanted to do was kind of like going under-cover to get a lot of neo-nazis thrown in prison.

  • There is something pathetic about political late comers engaging in blatant change pandering.

    There is a huge difference between those who try to possess change as a static noun for ornamentation, and those who are truly living a path of reform as a dynamic verb.

  • zeitgeist, my wife is at the point where, when she hears Edwards talking about the mill where his father and grandmother worked, she runs screaming from the room… I pointed out to her that most people don’t share her misfortune of living with someone who actually finds this stuff interesting, and thus haven’t been forced to hear him sound this note as many times. You’re absolutely right; people like you and me are a terrible barometer by which to gauge how the campaign is unfolding.

    At least for myself, though, I don’t seem to be able to help it… 😉

  • Sen. Clinton asks us to look at her record, and where she has successfully implemented change through action in the Senate. Here it is: “Statistics: Hillary Clinton has sponsored 350 bills since Jan 22, 2001, of which 304 haven’t made it out of committee (Very Poor) and 2 were successfully enacted (Average, relative to peers). Clinton has co-sponsored 1706 bills during the same time period (Average, relative to peers).”

  • I used to work in a nearly all male environment as a defense industry engineer. In my experience when a woman gets angry, she’s “out of control”, “losing it’, or “having a meltdown”. When a man loses his temper, he probably has a good reason. In other words, the evaluation of Sen. Clinton is sexism pure and simple.

  • By comparison, from the same source
    Obama: “sponsored 129 bills since Jan 4, 2005, of which 120 haven’t made it out of committee (Average) and 1 were successfully enacted (Average, relative to peers). Obama has co-sponsored 529 bills during the same time period (Average, relative to peers).”

    Edwards: “sponsored 81 bills since Jan 19, 1999, of which 74 haven’t made it out of committee (Average) and 0 were successfully enacted (Average, relative to peers). Edwards has co-sponsored 531 bills during the same time period (Average, relative to peers).”

    And, might as well look at a Republican Senator, McCain:
    “sponsored 403 bills since Jan 21, 1997, of which 263 haven’t made it out of committee (Very Poor) and 12 were successfully enacted (Good, relative to peers). McCain has co-sponsored 865 bills during the same time period (Average, relative to peers).”

    Of course, much of this has to do with the internal politics of Capitol Hill. The point is, stripped of rhetoric, the actions of these candidates appears to have the same level of effectiveness, broadly speaking.

  • BAC, I think you and I come from the same place. I once imagined running someone’s campaign for governor. I thought it would be a great speech, a way to gain the peoples’ trust knowing how they think politicians all lie, to have a candidate say:

    “My opponent promises you a solution to every problem, a position for every policy. But that kind of campaign is why politicians have a bad name. Every election, the candidates tell you all of the things you want to hear, and whoever is elected is lucky to accomplish 4 significant initiatives in 4 years — that is simply how the world really works. So I will not stand here and promise you everything, knowing it can’t be done. I will promise to put my energies into just 4 things, but we will do them and we will spend the time doing them right. We will bring more high-paying jobs to the state. We will make our education system not only the envy of the nation, but world-class. We will reduce crime, making our neighborhoods safer. And we will make more health care options more affordable and accible for more citizens. Four things that will get done, not a laundry list of promises that won’t. And those will improve the lives of our citizens more than all of the campaign promises of my opponent put together.”

    And then it occurred to me that there is a reason no one has ever actually run that campaign, much less done so successfully: the voting public is stupid.

    The voting public likes to be lied to (don’t believe me? Ask Walter Mondale what happens when you dare to tell the truth.) The public wants to be told they can have more services, lower taxes, and no deficit. In the end, the public hates to be told there are limits – they’d rather you not wake them from their dream, they’d rather you let them believe even if that requires telling the pretty lies. They’ll never elect the candidate who throws the bucket of cold water on them – it isn’t like the old after shave commercial where the response to a bracing slap in the fact is a “Thanks! I needed that!” Even when the voting public needs that.

    It is why they voted for social chair at the frat house instead of a President back in 2000. And, relevant to Edwards, it is why even the most truthful, accurate class-warfare campaigns never work, even when they should. In 2004, when Dems were slamming on Bush’s tax cuts as going only to the “richest 1%” and it wasn’t working, there was a poll I recall seeing that asked Americans if they were or thought they might someday be in the richest 1%. Something like a third of Americans answered “yes,” no matter how mathematically hard it is to fit 33% into 1%. This country doesn’t want to live in the reality based community. “HOPE!” they’ll buy in bushel baskets; it is a sin to even inquire as to the basis, the ability to deliver, or the expected outcome of that “HOPE!”

  • And the most “successful” US Senator this year? Orrin Hatch (R, Utah). The full rankings can be found here. That’s all getting a ways off topic, but after all, that’s the kind of research Hilary is asking us to do in her response to the Obama-Edwards love fest.

    (The spam filter always asks me to type “orange”. I thought it amusing.)

  • ROTFLMAO (#43), My thoughts and sentiments exactly. Maybe that’s why we haven’t elected a sitting senator (except JFK, whose looks and rhetoric and Irish Catholicism at that time distinguished him from the rest) since before the Civil War. The longer Obama sits in the Senate the more like them he’ll become, one of the good old boys in the most exclusive club in the world, but hardly inspiring. There are all kinds of DC bureaucrats with worlds of experience (which the Shrub either ignores or drives out). What we need is inspiration — nothing to fear, a fair deal, the peace corps, flights to the moon, head start, human rights. Edwards and Obama have different but complementary loads of such inspiration to bestow. Hillary is more-of-the-same, dynastic fights at best. It’s time to move on.

  • But Ed, you left out “Its Morning in America”
    Far preferable to someone who would bringus “malaise.”

    Inspirational catch-phrases brought us the largest deficits on record (until Dubya), more criminal prosecutions in the administration than Nixon had, the beginning of harsh polarizing anti-government politics, and Iran-Contra.

    Thanks, but I’ll pass.

  • Did anyone else find it strange that out of the five or six questions that the candidates were asked, one of them, for both parties, was essentially: so what do you find wrong with Obama?

    It more or less made this question equal with ‘what would you do if America was hit by a nuclear weapon?’ Which is nuts. Also, no other candidate was targeted in this fashion.

    Also, Hillary was paid off by drug companies. She was paid off, and shut her mouth. She will do this again when in office. Also, why would a woman president be a positive change at a time when we are combating extremist groups who discount women on a fundamental level? A woman should and will be president some day, but this is simply not that day.

  • It wasn’t during the debate I heard this, but Edwards said yesterday that the difference between him and Obama was that Obama takes an “academic and philosophical approach.” Am I being oversensitive, or is that a version of the old southern strategy – education equals elitism, so let’s use passion and call it common sense?

  • Watch the debate yourself –

    Clinton is getting a little desperate and was instructed to go for the jugular.

    She tried and was rebuked…. three times.

    If she didn’t want to be counter-punched she shouldn’t have begun throwing the cheap shots in the first place. Too bad Hillary – you lose.
    ————————————————

    Barack Obama for President of the UNITED States of America.

  • #42—- I’d say it should be the other way around… not Clinton/Obama but Obama/Clinton ’08 … but I don’t believe it for a moment. Whoever does get the nomination will not be picking Hillary as a running mate. It wont happen.
    ——————-
    Go Barack !

  • Kali wrote:

    There is something pathetic about political late comers engaging in blatant change pandering.

    There is a huge difference between those who try to possess change as a static noun for ornamentation, and those who are truly living a path of reform as a dynamic verb.

    Wow, is there any substance behind that comment at all? Or is it just ‘blatant change pandering’?

    Comments #54 and 56 taken together are helpful. The Democrats- Clinton, Obama, and Edwards- all haven’t been accomplishing a lot, since the Republicans have been keeping them from doing so with their immoral tactics since Bush took office. If you’re honestly judging them on their records from the last 7 years, you really can’t say Obama does more to change things than Hillary.

    Emma wrote:

    Did anyone else find it strange that out of the five or six questions that the candidates were asked, one of them, for both parties, was essentially: so what do you find wrong with Obama?

    Good point- I found that question ridiculous.

    Also, I though the question to the Dems about a nuclear attack was inappropriate.

  • Just received an Obama fundraiser call. I told the gentleman that I support Edwards right now and that my vote for a Democratic nominee won’t matter because the Oregon primary is in May. He asked me to make Obama my second choice and said Edwards and Obama would make “a dynamic duo.” Interesting.

  • I liked all of them. I was proud of seeing such a thoroughly credible set of candidates with such a great diversity of backgrounds, and they looked particulary good in contrast to the Republican candidates before them. I thought the democrats clearly showed differences in style that would translate into very different presidential styles, but I think any of them could do a good job.

    I favor Obama but to my regret he seemed tired and lackluster. He probably didn’t lose (m)any votes last night, but I don’t see how he could have won over people hadn’t seen him before or who might have been thinking about switching from someone else. He missed a lot of opportunities to sell himself. For example, in his answer to the godawfully phrased “loose nukes” question, he said “I’ve already been working on this, …….. We have not locked down the loose nuclear weapons that are out there right now.” He should have told us how he got some Republicans and Democrats moving on this issue after Bush dropped the ball completely and how this illustrates his way of reaching out and finding a successful consensus, and getting people to move forward together, and how he has laid the foundation for getting the job finished. However, he was spot on in his response to Hillary about why the power of rhetoric can be important.

    I thought Edwards made his case well. As usual, everything he said about helping the middle class was heartfelt and made sense, and should attract voters.

    I was impressed by Richardson. My wife, who isn’t much into politics but often has a better “read” than me of how politicians are going to go over with the general public, kept asking who is this guy, why hasn’t she heard about him, and why won’t democrats vote for him. Although I’ve heard some comments such as Gary D.’s that worry me, I’ll usually go for experience and reliably progressive politics, which would ordinarily put me behind Richardson. I thought he made the case well for his experience, and for the importance of experience in general.

    Hillary did fine. She’s a bit of a Mitt Romney of the center, but she came across to me as knowledgeable and capable. However, I just can’t tolerate political dynasties.

  • Also, I thought the question to the Dems about a nuclear attack was inappropriate.

    In the context of the times, asking this question is fear-mongering that outweighs whatever the answers could tell us about the candidates that is of value.

    The questions about Obama were like the person writing the question was a conservative, and wanted to get ideas of what opponents could say about Obama to beat him, and the question-writer wanted to give himself the added psychological high of getting the Democrats themselves to tell him what his people might say to beat Obama. It was that ridiculous. Questions like that should be clearly out of bounds.

  • Exemplifying what I was talking about in comment 46, Hillary’s answer to the “What do you find wrong with Obama?” question could have been something like, “Senator Obama is an exemplary Democrat, and if I were not running, he honestly would be my first choice out of the candidates for President. [pause] However, if you want me to distinguish myself from Senator Obama [sums up succinctly and comprehensibly in one or two sentences what best distinguishes her as a candidate from Sen. Obama].”

  • Regarding #69:

    And if Hillary wanted to be more polite to Edwards, she could say “If I were not running, he would be a fine choice” instead of saying Obama would be her first choice.

  • Such a stark contrast between the R and Dem candidates! The Rs both scared and amused me. Heaven forbid that any of them become our next president.

    The most interesting subject that contrasted the two groups to me was on the “war on terror”, Iraq and the surge. The Rs (aside from Ron Paul) stepped all over each other to be the most complimentary to bush and rah-rah the war and surge. All superficial and not based in fact. And they all ganged up on Paul for mentioning that our foreign policy is part of the reason that we are targets of terrorists.

    Anyway… the Dems rejected bush’s policy and the premise (pushed by Gibson and the ABC news clip) that the surge is working because violence is down, pointing out that the reason for the surge was to diminish violence so that the Iraqi government had breathing space to get it together. Which has not happened in large part.

    It really was like watching the kids followed by the adults.

    As for Hillary, I was put off by her attack on Obama. I understand her frustration over constant attacks by the media. And I certainly understand her point about change being action, not just talk. But I also think that Americans are ready for someone other than a Bush or Clinton in the WH. And I fear she’s too much in the pocket of big business to be effective at fighting them. I am still waivering who to support, though our primary is really late and probably won’t make much difference. Of course I’ll support the Dem candidate in November.

    But, boy oh boy, I sure wish Gore were running.

  • It’s just amazing. If Hillary doesn’t laugh you call her a witch…if she does you call her laugh a cackle…If she doesn’t show emotion you call her a robot…if she gets angry you call her shrill. I think most of these Hillary bashers have problems with women in general because if a male does it then it’s treated differently. The press is responsible for a lot of this but the rest comes from people who basically see women as inferior to men. I saw nothing even approaching “anger” from Clinton’s response. It was more emphatic and passionate.

    I see very little difference in Obama and Clinton as far as what they would actually ‘do’ as president. Obama has not demonstrated that he is not just another corporatist. Hukabee said that these enormous salaries paid these CEO’s was just outrageous. When asked what he intended to do bout it he said I don’t intend to do anything about it.
    The same holds true so far with Obama talking about change and what needs to happen, but I don’t see him actually ‘doing’ anything to accomplish this. Yeah, we all hope that these things will come about but first we must deal with what “IS”. Edwards is more about dealing with what is. It’s not hope that gets people to stand up and fight for change…it is “necessity”. Hope comes after taking a stand…it is what keeps us going…hope that we will succeed. Edwards is the only one talking about “real” change, about doing what is necessary now. He is the only one who recognizes the urgency to change the direction this country is in. He sees that the glass is not only half full but that it is cracked. Like Obama, I too hope that the repairs we will make in the damn will hold the flood walls back, but like Edwards I see it is absolutely ‘urgent’ that we make the ‘necessary’ repairs immediately. Just saying…

  • I hope I’m not the only person in the United States of America who had a different take on Hillary’s “likability” moment. It’s possible that she delivered a backhanded insult to Obama by comparing him to Bush (I don’t live insider her head), and that’s certainly the way the corporate media took it. But that’s no surprise. The TV reporters and pundits have been sneakily anti-Clinton and openly pro-Obama for months now. To me, her answer seemed to be a reasonable response to the question. The moderator’s question was, what was she to do about her “unlikability.” She responded with a pretty good joke setup, got her laughs from the audience, and then went on to explain that voting in 2000 for the guy you would like to have a beer with (she omitted the part about how joyfully the media hyped the beer business) turned out to be a bad basis for selecting a president of the United States. Which is a true observation, and a substantive response to the question. Obama is not necessarily involved in this episode, but for Hillary haters I guess it is necessary.

  • Re: BAC at #49, thanks for mentioning Clinton’s comment about the India-Pakistan connection. I’m still squarely in the undecided column, but her response to Obama’s statements re. launching attacks at targets within Pakistan really served to highlight the need for a president who can fully-consider the various complexities of a situation before issuing the “Launch” order. Not that I think Obama wouldn’t be thinking things through in a real-life situation, but the exchange illustrated (to me, anyway) the role of wisdom (something in woefully-short supply in the Executive branch for the past 7 years) as a counterbalance to an enthusiastic desire to be seen as decisive. Score one for Hillary.

  • Swan, here is response #7, from The Carpetbagger Report on: January 4th, 2008 at 10:30 am, wvng said:
    Sorry for the long post, but this seems relevant to any discussion about Obama having some “there there.” As another skeptic who wants to believe, this helps a lot for me. From the Post:

    Judge Him by His Laws
    By Charles Peters
    Friday, January 4, 2008; A21

    People who complain that Barack Obama lacks experience must be unaware of his legislative achievements. One reason these accomplishments are unfamiliar is that the media have not devoted enough attention to Obama’s bills and the effort required to pass them, ignoring impressive, hard evidence of his character and ability.

    Since most of Obama’s legislation was enacted in Illinois, most of the evidence is found there — and it has been largely ignored by the media in a kind of Washington snobbery that assumes state legislatures are not to be taken seriously. (Another factor is reporters’ fascination with the horse race at the expense of substance that they assume is boring, a fascination that despite being ridiculed for years continues to dominate political journalism.)

    I am a rarity among Washington journalists in that I have served in a state legislature. I know from my time in the West Virginia legislature that the challenges faced by reform-minded state representatives are no less, if indeed not more, formidable than those encountered in Congress. For me, at least, trying to deal with those challenges involved as much drama as any election. And the “heart and soul” bill, the one for which a legislator gives everything he or she has to get passed, has long told me more than anything else about a person’s character and ability.

    Consider a bill into which Obama clearly put his heart and soul. The problem he wanted to address was that too many confessions, rather than being voluntary, were coerced — by beating the daylights out of the accused.

    Obama proposed requiring that interrogations and confessions be videotaped.

    This seemed likely to stop the beatings, but the bill itself aroused immediate opposition. There were Republicans who were automatically tough on crime and Democrats who feared being thought soft on crime. There were death penalty abolitionists, some of whom worried that Obama’s bill, by preventing the execution of innocents, would deprive them of their best argument. Vigorous opposition came from the police, too many of whom had become accustomed to using muscle to “solve” crimes. And the incoming governor, Rod Blagojevich, announced that he was against it.

    Obama had his work cut out for him.

    He responded with an all-out campaign of cajolery. It had not been easy for a Harvard man to become a regular guy to his colleagues. Obama had managed to do so by playing basketball and poker with them and, most of all, by listening to their concerns. Even Republicans came to respect him. One Republican state senator, Kirk Dillard, has said that “Barack had a way both intellectually and in demeanor that defused skeptics.”

    The police proved to be Obama’s toughest opponent. Legislators tend to quail when cops say things like, “This means we won’t be able to protect your children.” The police tried to limit the videotaping to confessions, but Obama, knowing that the beatings were most likely to occur during questioning, fought — successfully — to keep interrogations included in the required videotaping.

    By showing officers that he shared many of their concerns, even going so far as to help pass other legislation they wanted, he was able to quiet the fears of many.

    Obama proved persuasive enough that the bill passed both houses of the legislature, the Senate by an incredible 35 to 0. Then he talked Blagojevich into signing the bill, making Illinois the first state to require such videotaping.

    Obama didn’t stop there. He played a major role in passing many other bills, including the state’s first earned-income tax credit to help the working poor and the first ethics and campaign finance law in 25 years (a law a Post story said made Illinois “one of the best in the nation on campaign finance disclosure”). Obama’s commitment to ethics continued in the U.S. Senate, where he co-authored the new lobbying reform law that, among its hard-to-sell provisions, requires lawmakers to disclose the names of lobbyists who “bundle” contributions for them.

    Taken together, these accomplishments demonstrate that Obama has what Dillard, the Republican state senator, calls a “unique” ability “to deal with extremely complex issues, to reach across the aisle and to deal with diverse people.” In other words, Obama’s campaign claim that he can persuade us to rise above what divides us is not just rhetoric.

    I do not think that a candidate’s legislative record is the only measure of presidential potential, simply that Obama’s is revealing enough to merit far more attention than it has received. Indeed, the media have been equally delinquent in reporting the legislative achievements of Hillary Clinton and John Edwards, both of whom spent years in the U.S. Senate. The media should compare their legislative records to Obama’s, devoting special attention to their heart-and-soul bills and how effective each was in actually making law.

    Charles Peters, the founding editor of the Washington Monthly, is president of Understanding Government, a foundation devoted to better government through better reporting.

    © 2008 The Washington Post Company

  • She responded with a pretty good joke setup, got her laughs from the audience, and then went on to explain that voting in 2000 for the guy you would like to have a beer with (she omitted the part about how joyfully the media hyped the beer business) turned out to be a bad basis for selecting a president of the United States. — Brownell, @73

    There was more to the quote than the beer business:

    “You know, in 2000 we, unfortunately, ended up with a president who people said they wanted to have a beer with; who said he wanted to be a uniter, not a divider; who said that he had his intuition and he was going to, you know, really come into the White House and transform the country.

    The “who said he wanted to be a uniter, not a divider” evokes Obama’s “no blue states and red states, but United States”. There’s, perhaps, an implication that Bush’s “intuition” is no different than Obama’ “hope” — a pile of claptrap. And, though she charges Bush with saying that he’d come into the WH and transform it (presumably single-handedly), while Obama is asking all of us to join in the effort, there are some echoes of Obama there too. Put all together, it does sound to me like she was taking a pot-shot at Obama by comparing him to Bush and, like CB, I think it was a low blow.

    This said, I like her after that clip more than I have before, even if she did exaggerate her role as being a fighter for change for the past 35 yrs. I like to see a bit of passion peek out from behind the usual, slightly wooden, facade.

  • Honestly, anyone who calls Clinton “shrill” immediately loses some credibility to me. Does anybody ever call a man “shrill”?

    I hold the same view of anyone who also use Obama’s middle name gratuitously, or uses a not-very-clever twist on someone’s name while criticizing him/her (e.g. “Shillary”–did you think of that all by yourself?), or even people who use “Repug” or something like that. To be taken seriously you have to take other people seriously, even Republicans.

  • # 57 Zeitgeist, I believe people will listen to bad news if they accept that the present situation is bleak. There must, of course, always be stated a belief that the bleak circumstances can be overcome with the involvement of all the people of the nation: Winston Churchill first statement after becoming Prime Minister.

    On Friday evening last I received from His Majesty the mission to form a new administration. It was the evident will of Parliament and the nation that this should be conceived on the broadest possible basis and that it should include all parties. I have already completed the most important part of this task.

    A war cabinet has been formed of five members, representing, with the Labour, Opposition, and Liberals, the unity of the nation. It was necessary that this should be done in one single day on account of the extreme urgency and rigor of events. Other key positions were filled yesterday. I am submitting a further list to the king tonight. I hope to complete the appointment of principal ministers during tomorrow.

    The appointment of other ministers usually takes a little longer. I trust when Parliament meets again this part of my task will be completed and that the administration will be complete in all respects. I considered it in the public interest to suggest to the Speaker that the House should be summoned today. At the end of today’s proceedings, the adjournment of the House will be proposed until May 21 with provision for earlier meeting if need be. Business for that will be notified to MPs at the earliest opportunity.

    I now invite the House by a resolution to record its approval of the steps taken and declare its confidence in the new government.

    The resolution:

    “That this House welcomes the formation of a government representing the united and inflexible resolve of the nation to prosecute the war with Germany to a victorious conclusion.”

    To form an administration of this scale and complexity is a serious undertaking in itself. But we are in the preliminary phase of one of the greatest battles in history. We are in action at many other points-in Norway and in Holland-and we have to be prepared in the Mediterranean. The air battle is continuing, and many preparations have to be made here at home.

    In this crisis I think I may be pardoned if 1 do not address the House at any length today, and I hope that any of my friends and colleagues or former colleagues who are affected by the political reconstruction will make all allowances for any lack of ceremony with which it has been necessary to act.

    I say to the House as I said to ministers who have joined this government, I have nothing to offer but blood, toil, tears, and sweat. We have before us an ordeal of the most grievous kind. We have before us many, many months of struggle and suffering.

    You ask, what is our policy? I say it is to wage war by land, sea, and air. War with all our might and with all the strength God has given us, and to wage war against a monstrous tyranny never surpassed in the dark and lamentable catalogue of human crime. That is our policy.

    You ask, what is our aim? I can answer in one word. It is victory. Victory at all costs – Victory in spite of all terrors – Victory, however long and hard the road may be, for without victory there is no survival.

    Let that be realized. No survival for the British Empire, no survival for all that the British Empire has stood for, no survival for the urge, the impulse of the ages, that mankind shall move forward toward his goal.

    I take up my task in buoyancy and hope. I feel sure that our cause will not be suffered to fail among men. I feel entitled at this juncture, at this time, to claim the aid of all and to say, “Come then, let us go forward together with our united strength.”

    Winston Churchill – May 13, 1940

  • Can anybody tell me why Iowa always has to be the first state to caucus, when we’ve all learned over the past couple of days that Iowa has lots of Evangelicals, and that’s probably why Huckabee did so well? As for Obama, New Hampshire’s polls all-of-a-sudden are going to shift in his favor because a candidate who flaunts his church-going did well in a heavily Evangelical state. Is that liberal? Is that the candidate to spear-head the Democratic party?

  • Isn’t it great to be having this conversation. The Dems have three great choices for the top of the ticket. My preference, as I have said many times now, is for Obama. This country needs an articulate statesman who can inspire the country to positive purpose more than it needs anything else. Edwards and Clinton are fine choices too. I will vote for either of them should they earn the nomination, but my hope, and it is shared by many, is for Obama to be the Dems’ choice.

    It has been a LONG time since I felt some hope for our political system.

  • Swan, the current numbers out of New Hampshire—based on several current polls—all show Obama doing better than he did in Iowa. Could you give us all a bit of a hint as to how Obama is flaunting his church-going there?

    And as for your comment—and I quote:

    ***As for Obama, New Hampshire’s polls all-of-a-sudden are going to shift in his favor because a candidate who flaunts his church-going did well in a heavily Evangelical state. Is that liberal? Is that the candidate to spear-head the Democratic party?***

    Are you actually trying to suggest that religion is non-liberal, and should be a litmus-test disqualification for “spear-heading the Democratic Party?”

    The numbers are shifting in Obama’s favor because the iron-clad quilt of invincibility has been ripped away from HRC. She has been successfully portrayed as being (1) in league with the status quo and (2) part-n-parcel with a domineering political machine—both of which are excruciatingly distasteful to people who have a motto of “Live Free or Die.” Those two issues were equally effective in a heartland state such as Iowa—and given Obama’s effort to present “change” as a “rebellion” against the aggression of that status quo, I think he’ll do quite well in SC—birthplace of a rather historic “Rebellion….”

  • David Chisolm at #57, I’m not denying that Obama is a good candidate or that he’s got some substance, I just don’t think he’s the best candidate out of our choices right now.

    Libra at #76, I still don’t think she’s “calling him” Bush– that’s the type of thing people do to Hillary, but that Hillary doesn’t really do to other people. She’s just saying that having a good image and putting out some charming messages doesn’t have to add up to a better package for a leadership position.

    Steve at #81 wrote:

    Swan, the current numbers out of New Hampshire—based on several current polls—all show Obama doing better than he did in Iowa. Could you give us all a bit of a hint as to how Obama is flaunting his church-going there?

    Steve, as you well know, Obama was the second-stringer in New Hampshire a few days ago, and his bump there could be (and most likely is) attributable to his success in Iowa. People are bandwaggoning. But nowhere is it written that bandwaggoning is smart, and as you also well know, once you’ve discovered you’re heading along the wrong way to get to your destination, you won’t get there any faster just by heading faster in the wrong direction.

    Steve wrote: Are you actually trying to suggest that religion is non-liberal, and should be a litmus-test disqualification for “spear-heading the Democratic Party?”

    As you well know, I don’t think religion is non-liberal and I do think that religion can be included within what’s liberal. But should someon who feels a need to sell himself on his religious identity be representative of the separate-church-and-state direction we want America to be heading in? Those two things sound at odds to me. It honestly sounds like Obama is not liberal enough to me.

    The numbers are shifting in Obama’s favor because the iron-clad quilt of invincibility has been ripped away from HRC.

    Ripped away by who? A bunch of kids in heavily Evangelical Iowa? Hey, since when have kids been easy to motivate to participate in politics? Not since the ’60s, four decades ago, last I checked. Kind of odd that after we have all been frustrated by our failure to motivate kids in every election, the least-interested-in-politics and most stupid voting demographic has all of a sudden become great pullers for Obama in this primary, don’t you think? I wonder if it has anything to do with a passage in Hillary’s book, Living History, where she explains that shortly after her husband’s inauguration, on the couple’s first trip to Camp David, their baggage was opened and rummaged through by the Secret Service after they left it in their bedrooms, and without their being told beforehand, and before they unpacked themselves. The Secret Service left all Bill and Hillary’s personal belongings strewn all over the bed for them to discover. Ostensibly, the Secret Service searched it in response to suspicion of some threat, but the fact still remains that they didn’t tell the Clintons beforehand, and any dopey undergrad Criminal Justice student can tell you about the psychological feeling of violation that victims of, say, a burglary are well-known to feel. Or what about the passage in the same book where Hillary talks about an ex-FBI guy who worked with her husband’s administration, who vociferously hated her, as well as Bill’s staff, and who in a subsequent expose-book revealed all his OCD gripes with the Clintons’ and their staffs’ personal habits? Or maybe it has to do with the Clinton administration’s post-Cold War defunding of the CIA? God forbid anybody should try to downsize you, or say that the job you have trained to do as your profession is not as important as it once was. Could be that Secret Service detachment that ransacked the Clintons’ stuff was just trying to send them a message that they didn’t really belong in the White House, and that even though they were there, the Secret Service wasn’t really going to be listening to the Clintons, because people like those in the Secret Service have their own agenda. But you don’t care about any of that, do you, because you’re for Obama, and Obama is going to represent hope, right?

    Sounds to me like Hillary Clinton tried to tip us all off about the fascists that are out there, and the power they wield, and that she knows just what they’re up to and how they operate, but that guys like you were living in your “I’m more liberal and smarter than everyone else” fantasy world, and you couldn’t fathom that someone like Hillary could be a little better than you at some things you’d like to be good at, so you blamed her for anything she felt she had to do that didn’t look to you like it was super-liberal, and you held her to your standard of what you would do as a Senator (that would never work), and cleaved to Obama in some kind of reaction to your idiotic rejection of Hillary. Hell, the whole suspect media and blogosphere was shoving you along to do it anyway. Why not trust a bunch of people you don’t know and you’ve never met? Any savvy individual knows that’s a really savvy thing to do.

  • Clinton states she is the candidate who will be able to take the heat from the Republican party. By contiunuing to attempt to denigrate Barack Obama’s integrity, Mr Obama will have enough experience ( because of H. Clinton) to withstand the RNC’s most horrible negative rheotoric. And Clinton’s and the RNC’s ugly rhetoric will be escalate to utterly disgusting as the Americans vote against them.

  • Zeitgeist @ 57, thanks for saving me all the typing. I strongly (and unhappily) agree with you. A head-in-the-sand approach leaves us with our behinds perfectly positioned for a hefty kick. (And in recent years, it’s been with a hobnailed jackboot.)
    I do want to hear a hopeful message, but I’d like a real message within the wrapper of hope.

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