I watch slug fests debates, so you don’t have to

In the days leading up to the last debate for the Democratic presidential candidates, there was an ugly race-based dispute between Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama, leading many to wonder whether the debate would take a vicious turn. Just the opposite happened — Clinton and Obama backed away from the cliff, made nice, and produced a decidedly genteel affair.

Fast forward a week. Once again, the pre-debate animosity had grown intense. Would the debate, held on the national Martin Luther King Jr. holiday, offer the candidates an opportunity to turn down the temperature? Well, the opportunity was there, but the top two candidates declined.

Last night was easily the most heated, argumentative debate of the campaign thus far. No other confrontation even comes close. Depending on one’s appetite for such things, it was either a riveting slug fest or an uncomfortable fracas, but for what it’s worth, I tend to lean towards the latter. Here was the most contentious exchange:

I suspect people responded differently to the fiery remarks based largely on their political sympathies, but I noticed two distinct angles. First, if there were concerns that Obama was “too nice” to mix it up, he probably put those concerns to rest last night; he gave as good as he got.

Second, this probably isn’t the direction that actually benefits Obama. Clinton doesn’t mind getting into a good ol’ fashioned brawl; she’s quick, smart, and quite adept in these scuffles. Just as importantly, she’s not afraid to throw dirt — Clinton said last night of Obama, “The facts are that he has said in the last week that he really liked the ideas of the Republicans over the last 10 to 15 years.” That’s patently false, but it didn’t seem to matter.

The problem for Obama is getting dragged into the mud when he wants to aim higher.

Indeed, the moment the campaign gets ugly, he’s at a decided disadvantage — if he returns fire, it’s politics as usual, with politicians bickering and getting personal. If he doesn’t return fire, and aims for a “new kind of politics,” the attacks from Clinton start to stick, and questions about general election “toughness” emerge.

It’s not that Obama couldn’t compete in a street fight — he seemed pretty good at it — it’s that he was fighting on Clinton’s terms.

Oddly enough, given the bitterness of the first half of the debate, the second half — in which the candidates went from standing behind podiums, to sitting in chairs — was far more relaxed. There were far fewer attacks, and far lighter moments. Of course, which do you suppose will get all the media attention today — the candidates on the attack, or the candidates getting along? I have a hunch it won’t be the latter.

I’ve neglected to mention John Edwards, who was not only in the debate, but was actually pretty good. It seemed, for a while, that Edwards was going to try to be the above-the-fray candidate — talking substance while the other two squabbled — but that’s not quite right, either. He mixed it up with Obama over “present” votes (which is a pretty weak attack for those who’ve looked at the details), and with Clinton over her willingness to hire corporate lobbyists. In this respect, it was more or less a three-way fight, with Edwards just getting less airtime.

As soon as the debate was over, the NYT’s Katherine Seelye noted:

With all this broken china on the floor, it’s hard to know where to start picking up the pieces. Mrs. Clinton and Mr. Obama showed themselves pretty adept at hurling plates, then reaching into the cabinet and pulling out cups and saucers too.

The audience looked none too happy, and it’s not clear what effect this debate will have on Saturday’s primary here in South Carolina.

In all likelihood, not much.

I may have another debate-related post or two this morning, but looking at the big picture, what’d you think?

only caught some clips, but loved obama’s comeback to clinton about not knowing who he’s running against (hillary or bill). that matchup is clearly taking on a two against one tone.

  • While an argument may be made that the dumbocrat candidate needs to be tested on how they will respond to the slime machines that are sure to come when that person is up against the repugnican candidate, it is thoroughly disgusting to view the level to which the Clintons will stoop.

    Deliberate misinterpretations, deliberate misrepresentations, and out & out lies seem to be a level at which the Clinton machine is comfortable. This may bode well, if she is the dem nominee, for the fall campaign. But then again it may not. I will never vote for any of the repug candidates, but I may not vote at all!

    I disagreed with the mostly corporate policies of the Bill Clinton admin, yet I spent much time & energy defending the Clintons during the 90’s against rethugnican inspired slime that had little or no truth to it. No more. I have joined those who can no longer stomach the Clintons.

    4 years Bush the Senior + 8 years Clinton + 8 years Bush the Lite = 20 years of the screwing of the American worker. NO MORE!!!

    Give me Edwards or give me Obama, just don’t give me any more Clintons or Bushes!

  • The problem for Obama is getting dragged into the mud

    By any neutral viewing of last night, he didn’t have to be dragged. He went personal first.

    But I’m sure plenty of people here today will explain why when he goes there its fine and when a Clinton goes there its pure evil. IOKIYO.

  • Remember “Who’s Afraid of Virginia Woolfe”? Let’s hope the party can make it to ending.

    I grow increasingly annoyed with the idea that we’re playing this out at such a superficial level. Both front runners’ most significant claim has to do with their ascribed characteristic: gender and race.

    Meanwhile, over on the sidelines, Edward keeps offering traditional/new policies which the media could care less about. Is this what TeeVee has brought us to? Forever?

    Aren’t we, as a people, better than this? Shouldn’t we do something structural (take back the airwaves, pre-paid month-long campaigns, a national primary, one person one vote, e.g.) to give us back our democracy?

  • Ed, if anyone was paying attention, Edwards should pick up a ton of votes from last night – the adults, primarily.

  • While we’re all busy fighting the battle of Obama vs. Clinton, has it occurred to anyone that the vote in November may well go to McCain. Not for any rational reason (Rational voters wouldn’t have re-elected Bush) but because with the economy going into the tank the balance may well tilt toward the gray-haired guy whos been around forever? Call it the comfort vote.

  • I’m with Zeitgeist — Edwards looked great in the debate, really resonated with the crowd. We’ll see if the media gives him any attention at all.

  • The problem is that the people watching the debate would probably give Edwards a look — but not too many people watch the debate. They only watch the recaps on TV, which are all about the big Obama/Clinton dustup. I’d love to think that Edwards would start to rebound, but I don’t dare hope.

    I do think Edwards will benefit in the long run by staying in — I don’t think it will be enough to propel him to the nomination, unfortunately — because Obama will eventually be tarnished by brawling. It’s inevitable. Nobody could live up to the image that has been created for him by the media and by hopeful supporters, and that he has embraced. He will either get pummelled in a fight, in which case he looks foolish, or he will fight back hard, in which case he loses the “above it all” aura. When he starts looking like “just another candidate,” Edwards benefits, because Edwards is the one saying the right things and who has been in front of most issues this campaign.

    This is why we’re supposed to have a long campaign and not an anointed frontrunner — for this sorts of issues to shake themselves out…

  • CB :”The problem for Obama is getting dragged into the mud when he wants to aim higher.”

    It would be naive to think Obama is going to live in a world of pure optimism and coctail party banter. It’s not mud to defend policies or votes, or to point out opponents policies and votes, as long as they are representative of the truth. I don’t see him portraying his opponents in an unfair way. By contrast suggesting that voting for Iraq war funding means he changed his mind about the invasion is fundamentally disingenuous. Once you’ve started the fire, walking away from it is irresponsible. Claiming that Obama wanted some voters to have 5 times the influence is intellectually dishonest. Saying you heard rumors of voter intimidation and attributing it to Obama is sleazy without evidence of both the intimidation and the coordination. Saying that Obama liked Reagan’s changes is simply a lie.

    What are the fundamentally untrue or disingenuous accusations Obama made? What am I missing here?

  • Clinton’s attacks are just the lukewarm preview of what is coming in the general from the GOP. If dealing with them puts Obama at a disadvantage, then that calls into question the whole notion of a “new politics” based on less confrontation.

    Also bear in mind that furious scurrilous, dishonest attacks will be the new Dem president’s daily experience once (s)he is elected. The other side is not planning on shutting down their Wurlitzer. Once they are out of office, they’ll have nothing else to do but run it 24/7.

  • with the economy going into the tank the balance may well tilt toward the gray-haired guy whos been around forever?

    Silly speculation. If you look at the actual history of presidential elections, no incumbent party has ever held the White House if there was a recession during the campaign. I think the Republican nominee was probably toast anyway this cycle, but a recession over the next six months would incinerate him. They could be running Reagan this time, but he’d still get beaten by any Dem with a pulse.

  • “The facts are that he has said in the last week that he really liked the ideas of the Republicans over the last 10 to 15 years.” That’s patently false, but it didn’t seem to matter.

    After what the Republicans have done to the country over the last eight years (especially) and longer, calling them “the party of ideas” isn’t the kind of description we need a Democratic presidential candidate to make of them. It’s frankly bizarre that he did. In the context, not avoiding this phrase, which- c’mon- we all know is a Republican written or co-opted phrase that the Republicans say with the hopes people will take as “the party of good ideas” is functionally the same thing as saying they have all the good ideas.

    Why are we wussing out not when we were so tough and ready to fight up til this point? Barack is sounding like he’s ready to make friends with Joe Lieberman over lunch, and like his few to-the-left-of-Hillary votes were just red-meat for the base- giving people what they think they want, instead of what they really need, to make them think he was a dyed-in-the-wool left-winger, where Hillary Clinton wasn’t.

  • They could be running Reagan this time, but he’d still get beaten by any Dem with a pulse.

    No disrespect but, that kind of thinking is what loses elections.

  • I turned on the debate about 10 minutes and was transfixed for the entire time.

    1) issues were discussed such as the economy healthcare and iraq and for the first time I can recall on national television, details were provided and discussed. Not many details to be sure, but far more than is usual on TV

    2) Edwards when he had a chance was impressive appearing above the fray but sticking the knife in to both of them when he had a chance.

    3) on the 3 issues
    economy ( all 3 were equal and no real winner)
    healthcare ( no winner but between Clinton and Edwards, I’d give it to Clinton; however Obama was a big loser on this issue and he looked really rattled and looked relieved when the questioning switche to iraq.
    Iraq…..I’m undecided about this one so i won’t score.

    Regarding the attacks that Clinton and Obama made on each other.
    1)
    Obama had better come up with a response to the voting present issue….even though it is debunked, for someone who does not know the issues it looked like he was a standard mendacious politician ( and Edwards made good use of it saying approximately that “obama uses Clinton’s and Edwards votes against them because they made hard decisions and some votes are complex with no right or wrong answers and Obama ovoided those decisions with his ” present vote” ie abstaining.

    2)
    Hillary’s charge that Obama supported republican policies. This was effective and a totally mischaracterisation of his comments. However it took ages for Obama to finally rebutted it with a line
    roughly ” i was working with community groups dealing with the consequences of republican policies while you were a lawyer for Walmart”.

    3)
    People may say that Hilary used falsehoods( note not lies) against Obama, but it is a debate and he had a chance to respond to those issues and he did, he waffled or ignored the issue (such as being against the war but voting for funding). He will not get a chance when in the general election when the noise machine is in full swing to respond to these, and they will stick.

    4)
    first half of the debate was great, though the second half…..
    what on earth was the question ” was bill clinton the first black president?”……what a silly question.
    or the question who would Martin Luther King vote for?……
    In the republican debate. will they ask “who would charles manson vote for” ?
    Actually knowing the media the question to republicans will be ” what democrat would charles manson vote for? ” 🙂

    Thanks for reading as this is my first post as a long time reader.

  • When they argue, both Obama and Clinton come off as bitchy. Edwards has spent much of his life in successful courtroom argument. It shows.

    Now if we can convince the media that, along with the entirely staged sport of wrestling, people found Perry Mason worth watching, too. In fact, though black and white, he’s still in lucrative reruns.

  • HRC demonstrated an impressive ability to speak with great conviction while grossly misrepresenting her opponent’s positions. If you happen to think the Democrats’ problems in recent years has been a failure to get down and dirty in the same way that Republicans do, then she’s your girl.

    I, for one, find her style of politics utterly demoralizing. Although at a rational level I know that any Democratic administration would be far better than the destruction that another Republican president would wreak, at an emotional level I find myself feeling overwhelming disgust. I cannot become invested in supporting a candidate who approaches political leadership in this way. I’ll probably vote for HRC in a general election, but I’d be hard pressed to do anything else to support the campaign. It’s just not possible to get excited about a candidate who is so personally distasteful.

  • I’m glad that CB watched the debates so I didn’t have to. I couldn’t even finish watching the clip above.

    My take on that, and only that, was that I like Obama more, and Hillary less. Obama’s (obviously rehearsed) line about Hillary sitting on Wal-Mart’s board while he was working in the community was a “You’re no JFK” moment.

  • Some thoughts that will probably get me jumped on by all sides.

    I found the opening part of the debate uncomfortable, but I don’t think that any side is pure in this. Yes, Clinton contending Obama said he liked the Republicans ideas was a distortion, and was not fair. However, I have heard the tape and read transcripts of Obama’s disputed remarks and, frankly they disturbed me a lot. I do not want to hear any Democrat repeat the ridiculous phrase “the Republicans were the party of ideas” with its implication that the Democrats had no ideas and were intellectually bankrupt for the last 20 years. I also don’t want to hear a Democrat say that Reagan was tapping into some reaction to the “excesses of the 60’s”. I am willing to give Obama the benefit of the doubt on these, but they were stupid things for a Democratic candidate to say and he deserved to be called on them, though not in the way Clinton did.

    Obama hitting Clinton with serving on the board of WalMart was a cheap shot, but so was Clinton hitting Obama with Rezko. I believe Obama is an honest man, but his response to the Rezko shot did not fill me with hope that he can handle the Republicans in the fall. He made it sound as if Rezko was some old thing from when he was a young lawyer, when in fact his campaign has returned over $80,000 in Rezko related contributions in the last year, most recently $40,000 last week. Rezko goes on trial in Federal court next month and Obama’s name has already been linked to the case. There is no evidence of any wrong-doing on Obama’s part and I don’t think he did anything wrong, but he is going to have to come up with something better than last night’s response.

    Edwards did well by mostly staying out of it, but frequently when he got on a roll he would stumble by throwing in one of his standard lines about his father working in a mill, or he doesn’t take PAC money. I thought he was absolutely right when Obama complained about Clinton talking about individual Obama votes and Edwards pointed out that Obama does the same thing. It is something that all politicians do. Instead of complaining about it Obama needs to answer the individual charge.

    I don’t get to vote in a primary until Feb. 5. I haven’t yet decided which of these three I will vote for, but I do know that I will happily vote for any one of them in November. Any of them is light years ahead of any of the Republicans and the stakes are just too high to sit it out.

  • Your analysis is spot on.
    She is a treacherous little terrier eh?
    And yes, there is very little space for Barack to work here.

    The Dems most recent two presidential candidates were soft.
    A huge chunk of the party is willing to err in the other direction this time around:
    Give me a bulldog goddamn it!
    That chunk of the party seems to be winning the tug of war right now…
    Of course ugly nasty won’t win the general.
    That election goes to the candidate who is most likable.
    Always has. Always will.
    I’ve never seen a pushy know-it-all win in November.

  • Oh well, if Swan and other Clinton supporters can continue to misconstrue Obama’s comments about Reagan, why not Clinton herself. I expect this inanity from Swan, but Clinton should be above it.

    Obama should have seen it coming and had a better answer prepared for it, but we did get a glimpse of how Clinton will deal with those she disagrees with: talk over them loudly like a child.

    Zeitgeist is right, Edwards walked away the only grown-up in the room, but unfortunately for him, people aren’t paying attention. All of the headlines are about the slug-fest.

  • Smiling Dixie,

    I disagreed with the mostly corporate policies of the Bill Clinton admin, yet I spent much time & energy defending the Clintons during the 90’s against rethugnican inspired slime that had little or no truth to it. No more. I have joined those who can no longer stomach the Clintons.

    The same history with the Clintons as you do, and you can count me among the “can no longer stomach the Clintons” group as well.

  • The problem is the media can’t figure out which narrative to saddle Obama with. He’s never been afraid to fight, he just prefers to talk about the issues. However, if that’s not possible, then he can correct the lies that the media refuses to. Pretty simple to me. The universal assertion by the media that “Hillary can fight” and Senator Obama can’t is laughable. The “Clintons’ continue to play the media like a fiddle, and so many are led the the slaughter willingly. Senator Obama CLEARLY won the debate based on the FACTS, not the fight.

  • To all the “Edwards looked great” people – give me a break. Is this the same John Edwards who was ripping Hillary Clinton a new one in Iowa? Is this the same John Edwards who barely got 5% in Nevada? Is this the same John Edwards whose entire campaign is a noun, a verb, and my daddy worked in the mills? Edwards only job yesterday was to take the heat off Hillary, and he did a great job. But his new incarnation as “peace maker” is a bunch of bull. message.

    Senator Obama has been unfairly attacked and maliciously smeared by Bill and Hillary Clinton for A MONTH and had every right to respond, so give me a break with the “we don’t like the bickering” act. If you don’t like it, tell “the Clintons” to stop lying.

  • I just watched the tape, and was quite impressed by Hillary (even though I will be voting against any Democratic candidate). She looked sharp and confident. Obama often looked like a Deer caught in the headlights, lacked substance, and basically relied on memorized talking points.

    I don’t know how the full debate went, but from what was on the tape here, Hillary clearly kicked Obama’s arse…Fair and Square. First time that I have watched Obama in action, and was surprised by his almost Child-Like demeanor, especially after hearing so many people rave about him.

  • I just watched the tape, and was quite impressed by Hillary (even though I will be voting against any Democratic candidate). -Seaberry

    Well, Seaberry, I’m sure Clinton will be thrilled to have the approval, if not the backing, of someone who can’t understand the basic fairness of a progressive income tax.


  • My take on that, and only that, was that I like Obama more, and Hillary less. Obama’s (obviously rehearsed) line about Hillary sitting on Wal-Mart’s board while he was working in the community was a “You’re no JFK” moment.

    Agreed. Also, Hillary’s comeback linking Obama to a shady supporter came across cheap and nasty (you’ll notice in the video after slinging that mud she finishes off her water, perhaps to wash the nasty taste out of her mouth?). Her performance could be taken by supporters and some undecideds as showing strength and a willingness to stand her ground. But her performance will feed into well developed cliches about her. However she may have faired in the inherently nasty politics of the South Carolina primary, I think she took a hit in her national electability. And I think Obama comes out looking a little more electable.

  • John Edwards had a good night. If he had been doing that back in Iowa…

    I’d have to agree with Zeitgeist that Barack Obama threw the first punch in last night’s debate and that anyone thinking he needed to be “dragged” into the mud hasn’t been paying close attention. But I also have to agree that the kind of exchange we saw in the first half of the debate last night likely benefits Clinton more than Barack Obama, even though I don’t think you could fairly say either of them won the match on points.

    They both scored a couple of solid punches and both took a couple of hits. There were a couple of low blows on both sides and I don’t think either came really off as pettier than the other. The problem for Barack Obama is that short of winning by a knockout in an exchange like that, he loses by playing.

    Barack Obama is the one out there billing himself as a “new kind of politician” — a perennial crowd pleaser even if it is the oldest song on the jukebox. One of the reasons people support Clinton is because she’s proven she can take a punch and give as good as she gets when it comes to that. All other things being equal, she doesn’t lose anything by it as long as she holds her own or better.

    Mr. Obama demonstrated very vividly last night, for the benefit of anyone who hasn’t been paying attention, that he can and will pull out the brass knuckles when it suits his purpose. Good to know for some perhaps, but probably still a net loss for him to the extent that it also tarnishes his halo. Barack Obama doesn’t really compare very favorably to Hillary Clinton in general in purely practical terms, so you you really have to buy into his “new paradigm” sales pitch to regard him as an unquestionably better choice.

  • There was good and bad from all three.

    Hillary clearly demonstrated she is quite capable in a bloddy knucked brawl, but also lost some points among voters looking for a different approach.

    Barack proved he can and will fight hard when he has to, but this does not play to his strength and if this kind of thing goes on long enough then it will hurt his chances.

    John looked great most of the time, speaking about substantive matters, however, it was probably too little too late.

  • Clinton employed an interesting three step rhetorical tactic:

    Step 1: She misrepresents the opponents words or actions (e.g. You said the Republicans had “better” ideas than Democrats).

    Step 2: Wait for the opponent to set the record straight.

    Step 3: Label the opponent’s rebuttals as “excuses” (i.e. “You always have an excuse, don’t you Barak?”).

    Of course, the word “excuse” is itself a misrepresentation. As far as I can tell, this rhetorical tactic is her creation. Rove would be proud.

  • For those of us paying close attention, Clinton is doing a disservice to her campaign and the party whenever she deliberately misrepresents her opponents. It’ll probably pay off though, since I don’t imagine there are many of us paying attention.

  • And this morning, Hillary Clinton has modified her three step rhetorical tactic — I call it “The Day After” technique —

    Step 1: Misrepresent the opponents words or actions (e.g. You said the Republicans had “better” ideas than Democrats).

    Step 2: Wait for the opponent to set the record straight in a debate.

    Step 3: The next day, accuse the opponent of “looking for a fight”.

    Clinton Says Obama ‘Looking for a Fight’

    Obviously, the point is to undermine Obama’s credibility in his efforts to build a progressive movement by uniting people. Dishonest? Sure. Effective? Let’s hope not.

  • On style/personality I thought Obama demonstrated a thin skin – he seemed to act as if it’s no fair to criticize him, and I did not think he dealt well with specific criticisms – on the “slumlord” he clearly under-represented the facts; and in a prior debate he shook his head “no” when charged with having a lobbyist advising him (in New Hampshire I think) when the true answer is “yes.” In other words his reflex reaction is simply to deny rather than deal with the charge. While those who have read his books say he is unusually introspective and has the capacity for personal growth, what I see is a certain peevishness in reaction to criticism, and a certain arrogance that no criticism is allowed, which is not good. He also takes criticism very personally, which is contrary to his message, that his campaign is not about him.

    On the Reagan comments issue, I with the commentator above that Obama’s remarks were disturbing – especially the excesses of the 60s portion of it. He did imply that Reagan was a justified response to people’s hunger to end those excesses–when those “excesses” were the civil rights movement, the women’s rights movement, the environmental movement, etc. I don’t for a minute believe that he believes those movements were “excessive” but I do believe he has to have bought into the glorification hype about Reagan at least a bit to make those statements. And it is a dog-whistle phrase — I read the same thing in a book written by a Reagan advisor 15 years ago.

    Sorry but I also think it fair to point out amid all the Hillary hate that Obama did start it — starting, from what I saw, in the infamous gang bang debate moderated by Russert and Williams. He can’t dish it out then expect to remain immune.

  • By any neutral viewing of last night, he didn’t have to be dragged. He went personal first.

    Yes, if the one doing the “neutral viewing” only started paying attention to the campaign last night.

  • it is thoroughly disgusting to view the level to which the Clintons will stoop.

    Deliberate misinterpretations, deliberate misrepresentations, and out & out lies seem to be a level at which the Clinton machine is comfortable.

    So true.
    Say what you will about the heated contest between Clinton and Obama, but so far it seems like only one side is fine with lying to score some points. And I thought we as Democrats where sick of politicians who had a flexible relationship with the truth…

  • Amelia wrote, “I do believe he has to have bought into the glorification hype about Reagan at least a bit to make those statements.

    From HillaryClinton.com:

    “She must break recent tradition, cast cronyism aside and fill her cabinet with the best people, not only the best Democrats, but the best Republicans as well.. We’re confident she will do that. Her list of favorite presidents – Washington, Adams, Jefferson, Lincoln, both Roosevelts, Truman, George H.W. Bush and Reagan – demonstrates how she thinks.”

    http://www.hillaryclinton.com/news/release/view/?id=4674

    Her list of favorite presidents certainly does demonstrate how she thinks. Senator Clinton is not only a liar…but she’s hypocrite too.

  • Good for the audience, Hillary deserved to be boo-ed. Booooooooooooo, Hillary! BOOOOOOOOOO!

    Other than that, I’m feeling better about how Obama will perform in the debates against a Republican – he will respond to baseless attacks (“You worked with slum-lords!”, “You voted for sex abusers!” etc), but will not hesitate to point out opponents’ negative records (Clinton and Edwards voted for a disastrous war and a disastrous Bankruptcy Bill).

  • I have always enjoyed the rhetorical skills of John Edwards, but the childish bickering between the “top two” made me decide to vote for John Edwards as opposed to Obama. Hillary did herself no favor trying to slime Obama and he did himself no favor trying to slime her, no matter who started the slime contest. Edwards comes off as a person who has good judgement and not such a short fuse. He looked pretty good last night and I think we can trust his common sense.

  • Chris, at comment 36, wins today’s award for Found Hypocrisy. Your trophy is in the mail.

    I’d can’t wait to hear rebuttal from the apologists wearing Clinton blinders.

  • Obama was right. Clinton didn’t get the quote right but neither did the republicans who are using it to say Obama praised Reagan and Obama needs to to speak without always having to explain what he meant. MTP posted only those parts that praised repbs and Reagan.

    Also to this WAL-MART slam. Hillary lived in Arkansas, home of walmart and was on the board when Sam Walton was alive and running Wal-mart when the slogan was “Made in America”. She was not part of the Chinese wal-mart product influx. When Sam Walton ran Wal-Mart it was a good American institution. So Obama’s slur was just as much mis-information as Hillary’s.
    All this is distracting from the issues and how these candidates hope to get that accomplished. I still feel that Obama is full of pretty platitudes but will not get much accomplished as he’s too willing to allow the republicans to continue to obstruct the dems agenda. Neither he nor Clinton have said much at all about accountability and I fear an Obama SC nomination because he’s too concerned about ‘looking’ non-partisan and might just nominate a republican from the federalist society.

  • You tube shows Obama shaking his head and say “That’s not true, that’s not true”, when Clinton said he had a lobbyists on his campaign board who represented Pfizer. It is true and Obama knew it but lied anyway. So to all who say “Clinton is a liar” so is Obama and it’s on video. Just saying we should close our eyes to nothing but we need to start looking at the positives,,,they all have many of those. Quit being so damned hateful.

  • How proud all the D’s must be of their first “serious” female presidential candidate. Now that Hillary has cried her way to a victory in New Hampshire and called Billy in to fight her battles with Barrack, the Clinton slime machine is in full force. If this woman wins, what will she do when she is sitting across the table from the likes of Vladimir Putin ? Maybe she can call in Monica Lewinsky to distract him. Also, since the Senior D’s are supposedly upset with Billy’s antics, perhaps they will ask him to take an oath to promise not to attack Barrack anymore. The Obama campaign will be able to take that promise to the bank don’t you think ?

  • I support Edwards because he sucks less than everyone else. When his campaign craters, I will support Obama because even though he sucks, he sucks less than Hillary. If he goes under, I’ll hold my nose and vote for Hillary. Even though she sucks plenty, she sucks less than all the Republican turkeys.
    In the primaries, I would urge everyone to vote against all incumbents, Dems or Repukes. Do this for the rest of your life in every primary you vote in. In the general election, vote against every Republican on your ballot.

  • If we vote for Hillary to become democratic presidential candidate for 2008, despite of spinning the truth regarding Obamas comment about Reagan. Then we all know that we are not tiered of politician lies and deceptions for the past 7 years.

    Folk will get the president they deserve.

  • CB said: “The problem for Obama is getting dragged into the mud when he wants to aim higher.”

    Sure everyone would like to “aim higher” and not be ever be challenged about anything uncomfortable, but that’s more like a coronation, isn’t it? Last time I looked, we had elections instead, where candidates compete with each other until one comes out ahead.

    The GOP is hurting badly right now, but they’ve been to this rodeo a time or two before. If you’re the Democratic nominee next fall, you have to be able to compete with whoever the R’s put up: think on your feet, roll with the punches and get in a few of your own, reframe your opponent’s case in the worst possible light, and make your best case in a sound bite. You have to move your opponent onto your ground and keep him there. Then you have to get up again the next day and do it all over again.

    A tough primary season gets you ready for that, sharpens your skills, polishes your message, and builds your muscle memory until the right moves are automatic. When it’s over, you send the winner into the GE stronger and faster for being challenged. Candidates smiling and “getting along” without ever engaging is not going to get that done.

    I can’t believe all the gasping and pearl-clutching going on over politicians… practising politics.

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