I watch the debates, so you don’t have to

It’s almost impossible to pick a winner from last night Republican presidential candidate debate in St. Petersburg, Fla., except maybe the entire Democratic field — for more than two hours, the GOP hopefuls made it abundantly clear that none of them should be the president.

With the campaign clearly in “crunch time,” and the Iowa caucuses about a month away, the candidates were bound to start picking some fights. Overall, there were fewer elbows thrown than I expected, but there were still plenty of noteworthy exchanges. The Romney-Giuliani fight over immigration kicked things off. After Romney noted Giuliani’s lax immigration policies, Giuliani hit Romney for having illegal immigrants work at his house. It led to this:

“Are you suggesting, Mr. Mayor — because I — I think it’s really kind of offensive, actually, to suggest — to say look, you know what, if — if you’re a homeowner and you hire a company to come provide a service at your home — paint the home, put on the roof — if you hear someone that’s working out there — not that you’ve employed, but that the company has — if you hear someone with a funny accent, you as a homeowner are supposed to go out there and say, I want to see your papers? Is that what you’re suggesting?”

Giuliani didn’t have a compelling response. Point to Romney. (Fred Thompson got in a related dig: “I am a little surprised the mayor says, you know, everybody’s responsible for everybody that they hire…. I think we’ve all had people, probably, that we have hired that in retrospect probably it was a bad decision.” He was obviously referring to Kerik, but it may have been a little too subtle.)

The even more striking exchange came between McCain and Paul. McCain argued:

“I just want to also say that Congressman Paul, I’ve heard him now in many debates talking about bringing our troops home and about the war in Iraq and how it’s failed.

“And I want to tell you that that kind of isolationism, sir, is what caused World War II. We allowed … Hitler to come to power with that kind of attitude of isolationism and appeasement.”

Generally, McCain tries to come across in these debates as the grown-up, elder statesman of the crowd. This rant about Hitler made him sound like a crazy person.

And perhaps the most substantive exchange came between Huckabee and Romney on education benefits for the children of illegal immigrants. After Huckabee defended his relatively progressive approach in Arkansas, Romney responded:

“Well, you know, I like Mike, and I heard what he just said. But he basically said that he fought for giving scholarships to illegal aliens. And he had a great reason for doing so. It reminds me of what it’s like talking to liberals in Massachusetts. All right? They have great reasons for taking taxpayer money and using it for things they think are the right thing to do.

“Mike, that’s not your money. That’s the taxpayers’ money. (Cheers, applause.) And the right thing here is to say to people that are here legally as citizens or legal aliens, we’re going to help you. But if you’re here illegally, you ought to be able to return home or get in line with everybody else, but illegals are — are not going to get taxpayer-funded breaks that are better than our own citizens’.”

It sounded like the kind of thing that might resonate with a conservative Republican audience.

I’m going to do separate posts on a couple of the questions, most notably the part about gays in the military, but here are some other items from my notes:

* Grover Norquist had a question about whether candidates would pledge never to raise taxes. Tancredo, Huckabee, Romney, and Giuliani all said yes, Thompson and Hunter said they don’t take pledges, and Paul didn’t really answer.

* Giuliani really hurt himself in response to a question about gun control. The YouTube questioner noted that Giuliani once supported written exams for those seeking firearms — not exactly a popular position with the NRA — and the former mayor went on to give a legalistic answer about regulating guns. The response was booed. A lot.

* In response to another gun-control question, Fred Thompson said, “I own a couple of guns, but I’m not going to tell you what they are or where they are.” He sounded a little paranoid.

* On abortion, Giuliani tried to explain that he doesn’t want the federal government to get involved, except when he wants the federal government to get involved. It wasn’t particularly coherent.

* Asked if every word of the Bible is true, Romney hemmed, hawed, and stumbled. It was kind of embarrassing. Huckabee, a former preacher, nailed it.

* Huckabee was less strong on the death penalty. Asked what Jesus would do about executing people, Huckabee said, “Jesus was too smart to ever run for public office.” It was cute, I suppose, but it was also a cop-out.

* Asked how the United States can repair its image in the Middle East, Giuliani said we should “stay on the offensive, and questioned why Democrats don’t talk more about “Islamic terrorism.” Maybe he didn’t understand the question?

* Asked why African-American voters don’t vote GOP, Giuliani said the party could do more to connect with black people by privatizing public schools and reforming welfare. Maybe he didn’t understand that question, either?

All in all, I suppose Huckabee was the big winner, but mostly by default — the rest of the field seemed confused, uninformed, and uninspiring. Romney, in particular, after a strong start, had several deer-in-the-headlight moments, including in response to questions about the Confederate flag, the Bible, torture, and gays.

As for the questions themselves, CNN seemed preoccupied with the culture war — abortion, religion, gays, guns, flags, immigrants, and the death penalty. In contrast, there were no questions about Pakistan, this week’s peace conference, global warming, surveillance programs, Iran, etc. I know user-generated questions were featured, but did the submissions really tilt so heavily in the culture-war direction? (And if so, what does that say about today’s GOP?)

That’s my take. How about you?

I undrestand what you are saying about social issues, but a debate – particularly with that many candidates – is never going to have room for all of the issues that are important, and it does seem that the modern conservative movement is defined by wedge issues more than anything except war-mongering and tax cuts. I also see immigration as being a broader issue than the usual wedge litany of gays, guns, prayer in school, flags and abortion.

I’ll wait until the separate post on the gays in the military issue to really go into my main example of this, but I continue (a) to really like the You Tube debate format more than others because there is just a different quality to the questions than those asked by beltway-insider talking heads and (b) to think that Cooper is better than most of the other hosts/moderators.

But more than anything I was left thinking that the Rethug field are, to put it mildly, nuts. They are better at Democrats at one thing, though: shameless pandering. And I really thought perhaps we should replace voting with an IQ test, because I really think Obama, Clinton, and Edwards would beat Giuliani, Romney & Thompson by several dozen points a piece.

All in all I think Huckleberry was the winner. I think Romney was the biggest loser.

  • The Huckle-buck is just another cut-and-dried NeoCon Imperialist. It was Ron Paul and the seven Imperialists on stage last night again.

    What would Jesus do? Apparently according to the Huckster (a “Christian” “minister”) and the other NeoCon Supremacists, Jesus would wage unending war and sentence people to death.

    Odd. I thought Jesus told Christ-followers to Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

    I guess that the Huckster reads a different Bible than I do and Matthew 5:43 is simply allegorical.

  • JKap, apparently your God is just smaller than Huckleberry’s. According to Huckleberry, size matters.

  • Perhaps minister Huckabee should have recalled “What DID Jesus Do?”

    When encountering those who were going to stone the woman found guilty of adultery – in as complete compliance with the Mosaic law as Huckabee declared he ensured the executed were fully guilty under Arkansas law – Jesus said to the crowd “let the one without sin cast the first stone”, and no one stepped forward. Of course Jesus himself was a victim of the death penalty – found guilty under the law of the powers that ruled in Jerusalem.

  • This morning I heard Cenk Uygur on The Young Turks talking about the debates and playing some of the questions and responses; one of the things he said just made me laugh out loud, because it was so perfect. He highlighted Romney’s waffling on gays in the military, on the Bible and also talked about his penchant for flip-flopping. Cenk said he thinks one of these days, Romney is just going to melt – that he’s like something made out of grease into the form of a person, and he can just hear some debate moderator saying, “Uh, Governor Romney, what’s that dripping off your nose?” and that will be the beginning of the total melt.

    Huckabee had a great answer to the question about the Bible, and I’m sure the religious crowd loved it, but he did sound like he could easily launch into a sermon, and I’m not sure that helps him beyond the base.

    After reading both the Politico and Village Voice articles (the Village Voice article was on Giuliani’s – and his company’s – ties to a terror sheik), I’m hoping it won’t be much longer before Rudy’s candidacy dies a painful death. He lies as easily as he breathes.

  • It occurs to me that we all need to thank you for watching the debate so we don’t have to. You put yourself though a spell of mental torture listening to the GOP’s presidential hopefuls and hopeless, which is something I can’t make myself do. I would likely break the TV or my neighbors would call the cops because I could never drink enough to make doing that palatible/bearable.

    So my hat’s off to you.

  • CNN seemed preoccupied with the culture war — abortion, religion, gays, guns, flags, immigrants, and the death penalty.

    As The Carpetbagger recently pointed out, the readers of Conservapedia seem even more narrowly focused. Nice to know that CNN is putting its famed global experience to use.

  • What 43rd President?

    Nobody said the current President’s name! Not once! I heard the phrase “This president” (Cooper and McCain, if I recall)

    I watched most of the debate and paid a reasonable amount of attention so maybe one slipped by and please correct me if I’m wrong.

    Our current President is going to disappear like a rabbit in a hat. I can’t blame the cons for distancing themselves but I can blame the Dems for not tying that bloated, decaying rabbit carcass around the neck of EVERY republican they encounter. I guess it’s a little early to be too up-in-arms about this so we’ll wait and see how they behave in the coming months and after the primaries, especially.

    The W stands for ‘Who?’

  • ET (#7),

    I think Steve must have picked up some kind of equivalent to Harry Potter’s “invisibility cloak” in order to put with these things on our behalf. Either that, or he listens to the entire program while standing in the shower. Thank you, CB.

  • My thoughts:

    –It’s impossible to overstate what a smarmy douchebag Mitt Romney is. Thinking about it rationally, he scares me much less than the crypto-fascist Giuilani… but at least Rudy’s demonstrably human. Romney’s repulsive on a level I’m not sure I’ve seen before in national politics.

    –On most issues, McCain’s the only one who seems to be a part of the reality-based community. Then he gets going about war, and you quickly realize that his eagerness to pursue military conflict probably outweighs how decent he is on other things.

    –Giuliani had a lousy night that won’t help him anywhere. He BS’d his way through the question about his taxpayer-funded adultery; if that story has legs, it could knock him out before 2/5.

    –My wife and I were actually waiting for Fred Thompson’s face to slide off his skull.

    –In a way, I wish Tancredo and Hunter got to talk more. If you look up “mean-spirited prick” in the dictionary, surely you’d see their two ugly faces. They are perfectly representative of the Congressional Republicans from which they emerged: paranoid, illogical and viciously cruel.

    –I turned off the debate at 10 to put on “The Sopranos,” so I’m not sure if Ron Paul offered the impassioned argument about defending our Precious Bodily Fluids that he seemed to be building up towards.

  • McCain clearly did the best on substance.
    Huck did the best on presentation.
    Fred made some decent quips.
    Rudy mostly flopped, other than his scripted “sanctuary mansions” line.
    Romney was a robot, only his fan club could claim he did well.
    Ron Paul needed more time to talk about the Illuminati and reptilian shapeshifters.
    Tancredo and Hunter were mostly ignored. Hunter slipped on Clinton’s planted general.

    Winner: McCain, Huck
    Losers: Giuliani, Romney
    Loonies: Paul

  • What exactly did Huckabee say to “nail” the Bible question? Can CB or someone who saw the debate elaborate on that?

  • Thanks for watching so that we don’t have to.

    I did turn the debate on, briefly, but I couldn’t focus on what they were saying because of the glare from Mitt’s gelled (moussed? brillcreamed?) hair. Perhaps that’s why so many of the answers I heard sounded so garbled, except for Huckleberry’s quip about Jesus and politicians.

  • Re: James Dillon @ #13

    I think CB was referring to Huckle-buck’s artful dodging of the question “what would Jesus do?” with regard to the death penalty.

    The Huckster dodged the question by saying something to the effect that Jesus wouldn’t have run for government office. I guess he doesn’t believe that Christ was the King of Kings.

    I think KevinMc @ #5 nailed it – “let the one without sin cast the first stone.”

  • James Dillon @13:

    Huckabee, on whether he believes every word in the Bible:

    “The Bible is the word of God. I mean, I might interpret the word differently than you interpret the word, but I read the Bible and I believe the Bible is the word of God. I don’t disagree with the Bible. I try to live it.”

  • “Jesus was too smart to ever run for public office.”

    ???

    Yeah, that smartass had the brains to get himself born into a time period where people didn’t “run for public office”, they were either born into “office” or they killed whoever was in their way.

    Of course it’s pretty obvious that if Jesus actually came back and ran for public office the Republicans would accuse him of being a communist.

  • Mittwit quote ‘….if you hear someone with a funny accent….”. Ah, nice to see Mittwit acknowledging those of us that, hell what, don’t sound like him? What the hell is this? I guess he thought it would sound better than saying if you see someone who looks funny or looks like an illegal alien?

  • What a group of presidential candidates! All support a backward policy against gays in the military, some would end the income tax, most support unregulated gun ownership, most oppose sensible policies on illegal immigration, and one won’t condemn waterboarding.

    Do they think we need all those guns to protect against the threat of gay marriage?

    homer http://www.altara.blogspot.com

  • Looks like the MSM marching orders involve promoting Huckabee endlessly. Ron Paul had 2-3 questions and limited time. He still crushed them all (how come every article forgets to include his comeback to McCain which mentioned that Ron Paul gets more Military Contributions than any other candidate?). Mitt is dead after desecrating the Confederate flag. Many Southerns died under that flag. Unfortunately it took segregationist Governor Wallace to reveal the truth that “there’s not a dime’s worth of difference between” Republicans and Democrats. The Democrats willingly went along with the War in Iraq, suspension of Habeas Corpus, detaining protesters, banning books like fAmerica Deceived (book) from Amazon, warrant-less wiretapping and refusing to investigate 9/11 properly. They are both guilty of treason.
    Support Dr. Ron Paul and save this great nation.

  • James Dillon @ 13 (and others who have discussed it – this is also relevant to my quip to JKap @3)

    Here is the part of Huckabee’s answer on the Bible that is getting good reviews for fairly good political hairsplitting (and he delivered it well, too – the minister thing came through). The question was whether every word of the Bible is true:

    But in a greater sense, I think what the question tried to make us feel like was that, well, if you believe the part that says, “Go and pluck out your eye” — well, none of us believe that we ought to go pluck out our eye. That obviously is allegorical.

    But the Bible has some messages that nobody really can confuse and really not left up to interpretation: “Love your neighbor as yourself,” “Inasmuch as you’ve done it to the least of these brethren, you’ve done it unto me.” Until we get those simple, real easy things right, I’m not sure we ought to spend a whole lot of time fighting over the other parts that are a little bit complicated.

    And as the only person here probably on this stage with a theology degree, there are parts of it I don’t fully comprehend and understand, but I’m not supposed to, because the Bible is a revelation of an infinite God, and no finite person is ever going to fully understand it. If they do, their God is too small. (Applause.)

  • With her friends in the media, Hillary might just beat any Republican candidate.

    CNN PLANTED A QUESTIONER FROM THE HILLARY CAMPAIGN AT THE REPUBLICAN DEBATE.

    Turns out that the questioner given the most time –both with a video AND in person at the debate (wait, wasn’t this supposed to be a debate responding to video questions?)–is a member of the “LGBT Americans For Hillary Steering Committee.”

    Retired BG Keith Kerr is a member of the Hillary campaign!

    No wonder CNN gave him the opportunity to ask his question about homosexuals serving in the military again and again.

    Will members of the Republican candidates’ steering committees be given the opportunity to likewise ask pointed questions of the Democratic candidates at future debates?

  • I actually found the audio uplink on the old shortwave set last night. I didn’t have to “watch” the debates; I just sat back and listened to the buffoons espouse a greater buffoonery than all of buffoondom could ingest.

    It’s nice to own a “pre-FCC” shortwave set—although, the tubes are getting kinda hard to find these days….

  • * Asked if every word of the Bible is true, Romney hemmed, hawed, and stumbled. It was kind of embarrassing. Huckabee, a former preacher, nailed it.

    Nailed it how? By saying he thought it was all true, or by saying that was absurd?

  • RM – see my post at 21 for Huck’s answer. (short version: he took your two choices and said “both,” just like a politician!)

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