I watch the debates, so you don’t have to

The last time the Democratic presidential candidates got together for a debate, it got ugly. Nasty exchanges got personal, voices were raised, and charges over Wal-Mart and Rezko were thrown around indiscriminately. The negative reaction was so intense, John Edwards sought to capitalize, running ads in South Carolina about being the only “grown-up” in the race.

Would we see a repeat? It was certainly possible. Last night’s event in Los Angeles was the first mano-a-mano contest between Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama, and both had an incentive to get at least a little aggressive. For Obama, Clinton is still favored in most of the Super Tuesday states. For Clinton, Obama appears to have the momentum going into Feb. 5. Was it time for each of them to try in get in each other’s way again?

Apparently not, because the polar opposite happened. The NYT noted that the debate was so collegial, it seemed as if “the battle was to see which of them could outnice the other.” At one point, Clinton said, without a hint of sarcasm, “We’re having such a good time. We are, we are. We’re having a wonderful time.” By all appearances, she meant it.

As for the substance, last night was probably one of the best debates I’ve seen this entire campaign cycle. The moderators seemed anxious to highlight the differences between the two candidates, which were minor, but it led to some unusually substantive, detailed discussions on healthcare policy, immigration, the housing crisis, and Iraq. If someone tuned in hoping to see one of the candidates draw blood, they were sorely disappointed. But if that same person stuck around, they saw two senators, at the top of their game, talking seriously about policy specifics without appearing wonky.

Who “won”? I tend to think of this as a subjective question — people can watch the same debate and come to very different conclusions — but from what I can tell, Clinton won the first hour (which focused on domestic issues like healthcare and immigration), while Obama won the second (which focused on Iraq and campaign vision).

On the first part, I found Noam Scheiber’s take to be spot-on.

On health care, for example, my gut (and head) still say Hillary has the stronger position substantively. But Obama really cleaned up his slight-mess of an answer from the South Carolina debate, arguing (compellingly) that he doesn’t believe there will be 15 million people left out by his plan (as Hillary claims), explaining that there will be ways to punish people who try to game the system, and that, even with Hillary’s subsidies, there will be people who can’t afford insurance and could therefore be fined or punished for not buying it. And, of course, Obama got to invoke Ted Kennedy on his own behalf, which never hurts.

Obama also nicely cleaned up his slightly-too-cavalier answer from the Las Vegas debate about his organizational skills. (He’d meant to say he was personally disorganized, not a lousy manager, but it gave Hillary an small opening and she exploited it.) Tonight he was much more circumspect while making the same essential point: “[P]art of the task, I believe, of leadership is the hard nuts-and-bolts of getting legislation passed and managing the bureaucracy,” he said. “But part of it is also being able to call on the American people to reach higher, to say we shouldn’t settle for an economy that does very well for some, but leaves millions of people behind.” That’s the most idealistic case for an Obama presidency and he made it eloquently.

In general, Obama gave his wonkiest performance of the campaign (which is not the same as the most tedious–which he wasn’t), and it served him well. He was extremely fluent on health care policy and foreign policy and really demolished the idea that he’s all uplift and no substance.

Having said that, Hillary continues to be extremely strong on domestic policy, health care in particular. She’s especially good at using the issue to do something Obama excels at–which is to invoke some broader theme. As in South Carolina, she turned it into an argument about political courage, saying she got the same advice Obama got about how controversial a mandate would be, and that she decided to support it anyway. “[B]een there, done that,” she said of the likely opposition. “But if you don’t start by saying you’re going to achieve universal health care, you will be nibbled to death.” It was a great moment for her.

On the second, I think Clinton was at a big disadvantage on Iraq, and the emphasis on the 2002 AUMF vote left her in a very tough spot. She didn’t want to admit a mistake, but she didn’t want to stand by her previous position. Politically and rhetorically, there’s not a lot of room there.

Obama knew it, and seized the opportunity to make a point that worked both politically and electorally.

“We shouldn’t have invaded in the first place. It was part of the reason that I think it was such a profound strategic error for us to go into this war in the first place and that’s one of the reasons why I think I will be … the Democrat who will be most effective in going up against a John McCain — or any other Republican, because they all want basically a continuation of George Bush’s policies — because I will offer a clear contrast as somebody who never supported this war, thought it was a bad idea. I don’t want to just end the war, but I want to end the mind-set that got us into war in the first place. That’s the kind of leadership I intend to provide as president of the United States.”

In contrast, Clinton said she made a “reasonable” assessment of the Iraqi threat, given the evidence. Wolf Blitzer asked, “So what I hear you saying — and correct me if I’m wrong — is that you were naive in trusting President Bush?” The crowd booed vociferously, and Clinton said, “Good try, Wolf.” She added, though, “I was told personally by the White House that they would use the resolution to put the inspectors in.” In other words, she was mistaken in trusting the Bush White House, but she can’t possibly say so.

Ultimately, both candidates did largely what they wanted to do. Obama, who seems to be getting better with each debate, showed policy depth and stature, while emphasizing his judgment. Clinton, who’s always been great in the debates, downplayed talk about her husband, highlighted impressive policy expertise, and made a compelling case for her candidacy. They both took repeated shots at John McCain, which is exactly the right strategy.

Will this be a game-changer? Almost certainly not. Obama probably didn’t do much to cut into Clinton’s lead, but Clinton probably didn’t do much to stop Obama’s momentum. Call it a draw.

So, what did you think?

Post Script: I imagine readers get tired of seeing me say this, but I just have to reiterate that these two Dems out-class the Republican field in immeasurable ways. It was the only real advantage of having two consecutive nights of debates — political observers got to see both fields, back-to-back, for the same period of time. Clinton and Obama know more, understand more, and think more than the GOP field on its best day. And the Republicans, frankly, don’t have many “best days.”

As I have consistently said for many years, and I’m sure we can all agree, one thing I hate about debates, which as a patriotic citizen I watch as frequently as possible, are the unnecessarily compound sentences, and as a long time scholar I can tell you, they are distracting, especially when, as people tell me all the time, the subordinate clauses are self-serving or pandering, and not nearly as endearing or informational as intended.

  • Who won the debate? Democrats did. My over-60 stockbroker husband, who is a lifelong republican (although I don’t think he’s voted republican in 20 years) said during the first break that he thought it was time for him to re-register as a democrat – the party of smart people.

  • I was never so proud in all my life to be a Democrat!! Good luck to both of them. The GOP can put their slant on it all they want but John McCain isn’t even in the same ballpark as these two presidential candidates. John McCain has neither, style or substance. Either one can annihilate John McCain very easily. I live for the day!
    GO Dems!!!

  • Just a quick one that, I’m afraid, will start the guns firing, but here it goes.

    Rachel Maddow was on the Today Show this morning. She said that it was insulting when Senator Clinton tried to argue that her vote on Iraq was a vote for diplomacy instead of a vote for war. Maddow said she heard Clinton’s speech the night before the vote and cried because it upset her so much (i.e. it was a vote for war), and to revise history as Clinton is doing frustrates her.

    (You might be able to find a clip on the NBC Today show sight???)

  • I agree this was a pretty much a draw – neither candidate did anything to reverse their current trajectory. That said, Clinton has been loosing ground to Obama and the Super Tuesday states have been getting closer as the day approaches. So technically, Obama may be inching into an even narrower deficit. His responses on leadership and Iraq were solid, perhaps putting to ease some voters uncertainty about his abilities, and the subtle (if any) differences in their health plan discussion really make either one an acceptable option come November.

  • I think both candidates were at their very best last night.

    CB, I think it supports your view of the contrast between the Republican and Democratic debates that a scheduled 2-hour GOP debate with 4 candidates is cut to 90 minutes and the Clinton-Obama debate, which according to Wolf Blitzer would run 90 minutes, continued until 9:52, without a sense of fatigue from the candidates, panelists or audience.

  • I know this is a twisted thing to say about a political debate, particularly the 3,000th one of the season, but that was fun. Of course, I watched much of it on CNN.com with the audience meter superimposed, which added a level of extreme political geekiness to it (as evidenced by my wife looking in, rolling her eyes and shaking her head).

    They each scored on the questions they should have; they each did a decent job on their toughest questions; they were each smooth and substantive, confident and commanding, positive and poised (and even occasionally humorous).

    The response meters from the group of undecideds backed that up — the scores were consistently around 70 (out of 100) positive for both candidiates with occasional spkies up to 90 and never falling below about 55. (I thought it was particularly great that when HRC jabbed Wolf – “Nice try, Wolf” – her number shot to the roof.)

  • I will say Hillary’s justification for her vote for the war in Iraq sounded quite supportive of W’s position on why he went to war… I was very surprised and couldn’t believe she actually laid it out in such detail (ie, the threat Saddam posed, etc.)

  • Also, did anybody notice “how well dressed” the crowd really was. For a party that takes pride in standing up for those who are “unfortunate” there were certainly a heck of a lot of “fortunate” people sitting in the front rows. Was this a fundraiser?

  • I know its hard as Obama supporters to accept but Hillary will win the nomination and she has the advantage over Obama on Iraq.

    Let me explain what I mean. By all indications the war is going good (not a sucess but good) yes it was a mistake to go to war but in the end if by chance come November there is significent improvement and troops are coming home then Hillary wins. If by most indications it is status quo or worse then Hillary still wins.

    The major difference coming Feb 5 is it is no longer days or weeks between states and Hillary is better known. I know many think Mich and Fla mean nothing but Hillary got 55% in Mich and 51% in Fla without campaiging in either.

    One other thing from now on there are only a few states that allow same day registration so the students won’t be as effective come Feb 5.

  • “Also, did anybody notice “how well dressed” the crowd really was. For a party that takes pride in standing up for those who are “unfortunate” there were certainly a heck of a lot of “fortunate” people sitting in the front rows. Was this a fundraiser?”

    What?

    How is it a contradiction for a lot of fortunate people to be standing up for the unfortunate?

    I’m one of those people, and I’ll be going, dress shirt and all to the Obama rally in Delaware(!?) this Sunday.

  • It was a great night for Democrats. Both of these people are smart, skilled and better than anything the Republicans have. As to who one, your own bias will tell you that. If you supported Obama, he won, if you supported Clinton she won. I saw two different panels of undecideds, one broke for Obama and one broke for Clinton. If you are a one issue pony on Iraq you will like Obama. If you arent a one issue pony they both offer a lot and they are both attractive to independents.

  • Clinton’s immigration stance should hurt her with Latino’s but I’m not sure how it will play out with other voters. She’s pretty much on the right with that issue. I’m surprised that Obama didn’t bring up her speeches about removing due process (in immigration court) for immigrants that commit a crime. Her position is that they should just get put on a plane and sent back wherever they came from. Her husband signed IIRIRA and that draconian bill destroyed numerous families. Seems that instead of fixing that bill she’s going to be even more ruthless. I can’t imagine, on balance, that such a position would get her more votes than she would lose.

  • I will add that many people obviously dont like HRC’s Iraq vote, but I thought (and I seem to be in the minority as I read around the net) that she did a decent job of turning the issue around by pointing out that the has the foreign policy credentials to challenge a McCain, and with McCain accusing HER of wanting to waive the white flag of surrender, she may have the issue cred to take him on over Iraq and prevail with people concerned about security and getting out of Iraq without a pelmel withdrawal regardless of circumstances. So I thought that resonated pretty well even in the face of Obama’s advantage with many Dems because he voted against it from the start. Les face it, we will have a clear choice this fall. And if McCain runs on a platform that we are better off now than 8 years ago, we may actually take the Whitehouse.

  • “How is it a contradiction for a lot of fortunate people to be standing up for the unfortunate?”

    Sorry, I didn’t make my point well. Just seemed like a lot of “star power” in the front rows… I would have thought they might want keep the glamour of the evening at bay so there was more focus on the content of the debate.

  • Here are the two HRC lines that made me do a double-take:

    “Some people now think that this was a very clear, open-and-shut case. We bombed them for days in 1998 because Saddam Hussein threw out inspectors. We had evidence that they had a lot of bad stuff for a very long time, which we discovered after the first Gulf War.”

    “Knowing that he was a megalomaniac, knowing he would not want to compete for attention with Osama bin Laden, there were legitimate concerns about what he might do.”

  • “Sorry, I didn’t make my point well. Just seemed like a lot of “star power” in the front rows… I would have thought they might want keep the glamour of the evening at bay so there was more focus on the content of the debate.”

    Gotcha.

    I don’t know, I didn’t notice the audience. I was too busy basking in Obama

  • I thought it was a great debate. The moderators pretty much kept it moving along without getting in the way. A big difference with Tim Russert.

    Both of them were great and the discussions in the first hour substantive. Since I don’t cry over Hillary’s vote on the AUMF, stupid as it turned out to be, I don’t mind her not ‘apologizing’ for it and giving the Rethugs an issue to use against her.

    And the nicest thing, it seems that my vote on the 12th might actually matter 😉

  • Clinton has ‘bad’ facts to deal with on Iraq. Obama has some ‘bad’ facts on other issues such as health care. Overall the edge should go to Obama primarily due to the fact that he finally upped his game for this debate and performed well, sounding just as comfortable as Clinton in his presentation of his viewpoints. It is clear to me that Clinton will not back down on her early Iraq vote simply because she does not want to be labeled a flip-flopper by the eventual GOP candidate (yes, how that really could hold water if it is McCain or Romney making the claim, I have no idea but you know how our vestigial media is these days), so I think she handled those questions the best she could under the circumstances (and the booing of Blitzer was, in a word, priceless). In any event, I really must say that it is very nice to have two candidates who speak intelligently, sound intelligent and engaged, reflect a clear grasp of the issues and can provide and discuss in detail policy ideas that may actually help resolve some of the issues Americans are facing today. Dare I say that last night’s debate made me feel a bit proud to be a Democrat.

  • I know its hard as Obama supporters to accept but Hillary will win the nomination and she has the advantage over Obama on Iraq. -Jim

    Ironically, I thought that was one issue Hillary clearly took on the chin last night. JRS Jr is right; Hillary sounded a bit like a more articulate Bush rationalizing his reasons for attacking. I thought Obama nailed it when he said the bill was called the ‘authorization to use military force.’

    I think the war is one issue that Obama is head and shoulders above Clinton on.

  • Let’s all agree that Obama wins on the “going to war” question. There are many, many other questions we need to here them talk about:

    How do we get out of the war?
    How are you going to address the educational inequities in this country?
    How are you going to handle the Social Security situation?
    How are you goint to create new jobs?
    How are you going to solve the global warming problems?
    What will your energy program look like?

    I want other questions to consider besides the war and health care. The immigration debate was the best part of the night because it addressed a situation that we need to know about that they hadn’t spelled out disctinctly before.

    If Latinos are smart, they will look beyond the drivers liscense question and look at the long term record on Latino issues both of them have. I think Latinos are smart and I think this will show that Clinton has supported Latino issues for years.

    Besides, how does an illegal alien get a drivers liscence? Fake ID’s? Then, who will know? Are they supposed to say … I’m here to get a drivers liscence and I am an illegal alien? How does Obama see this act taking place?

  • Sorry, I didn’t make my point well. Just seemed like a lot of “star power” in the front rows… -JRS Jr

    I thought it looked a little like the Oscars. I was wondering if they had to cross WGA picket lines to attend the debate.

    Of course, I only caught the end of it since my commute was over four hours yesterday. Damn Snow.

  • I thought both candidates did extremely well. Since I went in opposed to Hillary, I should also add the I’m now favorably impressed. I still favor Obama, but Hillary without Bill (who was blessedly kept from most of last night’s discussion) is a pleasure.

    If it does turn out be Hillary, I hope she chooses Obama for a running mate; the combo would be very 21st century and the best possible contrast with the WORMs (white old rich men) of the GOP. If Obama gets the nod, I think Hillary would be more useful to the nation as New York’s junior senator.

    Whoever gets the big prize, I hope John Edwards gets either the A.G. post or, my preference, the next Supreme Court appointment.

  • I think that the “winner” of the debate all depends on your perspective. I personally have been disgusted with the Clinton campaign in recent weeks, after Bill’s loose lips in South Carolina. Therefore, my opinion of Hillary improved dramatically after last night’s debate (even though I’m still voting for Obama on Tuesday– if Hillary gets the nomination, I’ll be able to live with it, and support her, as long as Bill stays muzzled!) Meanwhile, when I called my mother, who, as a liberal on social issues but a die-hard Wall Street capitalist, has been a Hillary supporter all along. And she said that, for the first time, she was undecided between the two candidates! So, I would say that last night’s debate served to help each candidate improve his or her standing with the other’s supporters. Granted, that’s just based on my own personal observation . . . but, hey, it may be anecdotal, but it’s something (especially if you knew how stubborn my mother is!)

  • Absolutely, America won this one. But something I’ve been puzzling over recently…why would anyone want to be be the standard bearer for this shipwreck of a GOP? To be poised for a later run? Certainly not McCain at his age. Romney? Possibly, but at the rate he’s spending his considerable fortune he won’t have the resources come that time. Whomever, they’re destined to become a synonym for loser. Just wondering!

  • Jim @ 11: HRC won in MI because she was the only one still on the ballot, and won in FL because everyone knows her name. The argument that she gets any credit for either “win” is bogus. The party should sort out what to do with MI and FL delegates, it would be better for HRC in the long run to stay out of the mess and let the party deal with party matters. Her whole fighting for and claiming the delegates smacks of poor sportsmanship.

  • It’s just great that in this election we have really good candidates. I tend toward Hillary but Barrack is getting surer footed as he goes along.

  • “Whomever, they’re destined to become a synonym for loser.”

    McCain and his supporters hopes you and your party continue to think this way through the general campaign as his poll numbers continue to quietly widen vs. the Dem candidate

  • hey swan,
    i miss your input. don’t let others shortchange you and us. your cogent comments are missed.

  • I only saw clips online last night and the “news” this morning, and I have to say — THIS. WAS. AN. AWESOME. DEBATE.

    Blitzer still blows goats when it comes to moderating these things, but it wasn’t nearly his most mendacious evening.

    What I liked is that they delved into some specific policy issues — something us thinking folks on the left like a bunch — but did so without being boring. Even a few coworkers who don’t follow politics or get all wonky loved it, including a couple of the moderate righties, both of whom said their opinion of both candidates was changed in a positive way. That’s HUGE — if the two of them were impressed, then lots of others probably were as well. I even liked Hillary’s response to her Iraq war vote question (although I would still really, really like her to say, “I totally screwed that one up, didn’t I?”)

    But what I really liked is that both Clinton and Obama learned their lesson from South Carolina — that attacking each other is a stupid idea. It’s more important to share their visions, and then contrast those visions not against each other, but against the GOP. That’s what this is all about, after all, and the fact they seem to finally get it is refreshing.

    Sounds like conversations we’ve had around here the past few days, doesn’t it? 🙂

    On a person level, as someone who was going to vote for Edwards next Tuesday, I used this as a chance to see who was going to go the direction I wanted: positive, policy specific, and impressive.

    To be honest, both hit the mark so well time and again, I’m still undecided.

    **bangs head on desk … with a smile**

    But, for the first time in a long time, I’ll be incredibly happy with whomever the Dems nominate. Both are kicking major ass.

  • The winner of last night’s debate: THE DEMOCRATS.

    Both candidates were solid, both were confident, both were articulate, and most importantly, each was civil to the other.

    As to the question of who won, as has been said already, that probably depends on which person you supported going into the debate. Clinton supporters will likely say it was her and Obama supporters will say it was him.

    Over all it was probably a draw, though I give a slight edge on the health care issue to Clinton and a slight edge on the Iraq issue to Obama.

    If I had to go out on a limb I would say Obama is the winner because he did not lose. The reason I say this is that the polls have been tightening as we get closer to Super Tuesday. Clinton still leads in many of those states but nothing happened to stop the tightening of the race.

    Still, it is a tough road for Obama. He clearly won’t take New York, but California is very much in play now that the numbers show that contest to be within the margin of error. Massachussettes is tightening too, now about 5 points separating them. Arkansas will go to Clinton, but Georgia will go to Obama. Idaho will go to Clinton, but Colorado will go to Obama.

    Bottom line, we are likely to have a close contest with the deligate count very very close after Tuesday. Hold on to your hats. It is going to be an interesting ride!

  • Re: On February 1st, 2008 at 9:35 am, Jay said:

    What are you talking about? Their position on immigration is identical. I know many hard working people without documentation in this country. So I take assaults from the right on immigration very personally. I see no differences between Clinton and Obama on immigration.

  • McCain and his supporters hopes you and your party continue to think this way through the general campaign as his poll numbers continue to quietly widen vs. the Dem candidate

    Just wait until America finds out McCain ain’t a “maverick,” that he’s admitted he knows nothing about economics, and that his grand vision can be summed up with, “War. War. And more war.” Let’s also remember that Carter was beating Reagan in the polls for a good long while in 1980. How’d that turn out? 😉

    You know, I’ve used the “Hillary causes too much hate” angle before, thinking there’s no way she could beat a candidate the media typographically fellates at every turn (McCain).

    But if she’s as on as she was last night … if she can keep Bill locked in a closet somewhere … if she can continue to show her sense of humor, wit and intelligence … and if she gets the nod and asks someone like Obama, Edwards, Richardson or Webb as her VP (my top choices, in order) … that McCain lead will disappear faster than a 12-pack of Natty Light in a fraternity house.

    Even if she stumbles a bit, I just don’t see how McCain can win once the facts of his record get out there.

    And I’ll bet you, JRS, a 12-pack of your choice on it (or, if you don’t drink, a $20 donation to your favorite non-political charity). Seriously. You interested?

  • Last night was a cunning change of tactics for both candidates. The real goal is to unseat the Republicans from the Oval Office. Tearing each other apart only benefits the righties. A bareknuckle brawl won’t produce a Democratic champion but a Republican sneaking away with the prize. Glad to see both Dems showing the political instincts to try to out-impress each other than rip each other to shreds.

  • I think the debate was largely a draw, but no matter who won the debate, Hillary won simply by not losing. Had Obama been a clear winner, today’s meme would be “first a South Carolina blowout, then the Kennedy’s, and a big one-on-one win in the Cal debate – Obama is unstoppable.” Instead, the talk today is all about the clean, close, impressive debate — totally taking the legs out of the Kennedy story, which had been running for several days. When you are losing news cycles, creating a neutral news cycle is a win because it breaks the other person’s momentum. She got what she needed out of it.

  • Good debate. Since foreign policy is my top priority, Obama wins by a mile.

    Best line: “but I want to end the mind-set that got us into war in the first place”

    That said, Hillary was at her absolute best on domestic policy.

  • I’m still voting for Obama on Tuesday– if Hillary gets the nomination, I’ll be able to live with it, and support her, as long as Bill stays muzzled!

    My take as well. Clinton is so much more appealing when she takes the high road; I still think she’s too given to war-as-good-politics, and at this point even her domestic policy views are too orthodox-liberal for me. But I find her command of policy detail very impressive, and I’ve come to realize that if she were running as “Hillary Rodham”–a moderate-to-conservative Democrat who’d be making history as a woman, and had no ties with the sleazy antics and endless controversies of Clinton Inc.–I’d have no problem supporting her.

    That said, I think Obama narrowly won the debate. He was clear, substantive, and witty, and the Iraq distinction is a huge consideration when thinking about which of them will match up better with McCain. He might have crossed a credibility threshold with undecideds who like his appeal but worried he didn’t have the wonky goods; if so, he’s in great shape going forward.

  • I didn’t watch the debate, but I did watch the post-debate analysis on both CNN and MSNBC.

    The consensus seemed to be that it was a draw as far as the candidates were concerned, with Hillary a slight edge the first half, Obama the second.

    The true winners were the American people and the Democrats. By any measure this was a superb debate between two superior candidates, either one fully qualified for the job of president, and both heads and shoulders above any of the Republicans. Even the pundits from the right, in their unguarded moments, heaped praise on both of them. It seemed to me everyone was impressed, and enthusiastic about the debate, and the candidates.

    I came away thinking that it’s a shame one of them has to win. One pundit already christened a ticket with both of them as “the dream ticket.”

  • I was somewhat disturbed by HRC suggesting that she thought her Iraq vote through and made a “reasoned decision”, considering that in the past she has said she didn’t have time to make a good decision. Obama’s shoulders perked up when she was saying that, but he let it pass.

    It was a decent debate overall, civil at least, but i thought that Obama was terrible. So many missed opportunities…not to dig Clinton, but to make the message his. For example, on Iraq withdrawal he should have been talking about how he would use diplomacy to get the world re-involved in the situation to make it easier for US troops to withdraw.

    I’ve long figured that Clinton would win the nomination and that i would vote for her (at least vote against the Republicans); however, that changed last night. The Levin amendment question soured me…and i’m holding my anger in still. I don’t believe that the US should give up its right to defend itself, but she said that she voted against that amendment because it diminished the prerogative of the US president. Sounds pretty “unitary executive” to me. Am i incorrect in taking that answer to mean that she believes that the president of the United States should have the ability to invade a country just because the president wants to?

  • To me, the most important thing of the debate (which I didn’t watch, but read about) is that it appears that Obama has effectively defanged Hillary, which was supposedly the reason we were to support her. She’s now pulling back her use of the Big Dog, and went out of her way to appear polite to Obama. And so now she’s playing Obama’s game on his turf, which was always his strategy.

    And to flip a tired meme on its head, if Hillary finds herself in a position where she feels she can’t effectively attack a “lightweight” like Obama without hurting herself, how is she going to continue a sustained attack against Republicans in a primary or in the Whitehouse? Because I can guarantee that the media will denounce her every time they feel she makes a lowblow, whether or not it’s true; simply because they hate her. That’s a disadvantage I find quite overwhelming. But again, Obama has played the “attack on attacks” strategy well, and has pushed Hillary out of her attack strategy; while also showing that he can fight when necessary. And that’s exactly what he needed to do.

    I wrote more about it here:
    More Hillary Bashing

    (BTW, the title of my post is meant ironically, as I don’t actually bash Hillary)

  • Jackpine – You should give the full quote of her “reasoned decision” line, which I found to be quite odd:
    Knowing that he was a megalomaniac, knowing he would not want to compete for attention with Osama bin Laden, there were legitimate concerns about what he might do.So I think I made a reasoned judgment.

    Am I stupid, or is she saying that we needed to attack Iraq because Saddam might try to out-do Bin Laden? Did this make sense to anyone else? Perhaps I’m just missing something.

    And as we all know, the real reason she helped authorize war is because like most Democratic politicians at the time, she thought it was a no-brainer and that it would hurt her politically if she opposed the war. And she was entirely wrong about that, as Democrats were beaten up even if they supported the war; which was entirely predictable. But to pretend as if this was based on her desire to see Saddam gone is just an insult to our intelligence. If anything, 9/11 made attacking Iraq a worse decision, not a better one; and I don’t recall her or Bill proposing such a thing during his presidency. She screwed up and still won’t come clean about it.

  • I dunno, Doctor Biobrain, I think people see a real difference between how you behave in a intrafamily fight than when you are fighting the opposition. Even if she feels politically required to pull back viz Obama after South Carolina, I don’t think she would feel a similar constraint in the general. To the contrary, McCain – with his gruffness and temper and laughing at supporters calling HRC a bitch – will have to be constantly aware of the Rick Lazio experience in the NY Senate race.

  • “Am I stupid, or is she saying that we needed to attack Iraq because Saddam might try to out-do Bin Laden? Did this make sense to anyone else? Perhaps I’m just missing something.”

    I’m telling you, that was sooo W like… completely nonsensical!

  • They both looked good in this head-to-head debate. Civility reigned.

    Hillary was on her game. Obama did well to force her to try to defend her Iraq war authorization, but failed to confront her about her failure to read the NIE report.

    Obama had a great point in noting that the renowned businessman, Romney, had not obtained much return on his campaign investment. Hillary had a nifty line that a Clinton had cleaned up after a Bush presidency and that a Clinton would now do the same.

    Both won. Hillary showed her excellent skills in outlining policy positions. Obama did OK and certainly did benefit a lot just from the additional exposure this debate.gave him.

    homer http://www.altara.blogspot.com

  • Zeitgeist – Are you kidding me? Hillary’s attacks on Obama were used repeatedly to show that he wasn’t tough enough and how she’ll take the attack to the Republicans; and that this was why we needed a fighter like her. And without a doubt, she didn’t see the “real difference” until it became a huge story and has now had to backtrack and play things on Obama’s terms. He made this happen, and it was clearly part of his strategy: To make Hillary suffer for using Bill and fierce attacks; which were two of her strongest assets. And that’s how modern politics works: By making your opponents assets into liabilities, so they get punished if they use them.

    And don’t you remember how Kerry got knocked the few times he said anything negative? You really believe the media will allow Hillary to act this way without punishing her? It’s exactly what they’ll be looking for. Every attack she makes will be endlessly talked about on how she’s going for revenge and is a “bitch.” The RNC probably has all its talking points on this ready to go, and the media will be glad to regurgitate every bit of it. I can guarantee you that she will suffer every time she says anything negative about McCain.

    Beyond that, even Republican politicians don’t actually attack people. That’s part of the joke, which the media loves. Bush generally stayed positive about his opponents, while surrogates did all the dirty work. Remember how much of the Swiftboat debate revolved solely around us trying to prove that Rove was behind it? We all know what’s happening, but as long as the media pretends that the Republicans aren’t behind it, their attacks are allowed to stick, while our attacks get used to show how angry we are. And this is going to hurt Hillary more than anyone, as the media totally hates her and wants to see her go down in flames.

    This probably isn’t fair, but Dems are expected to behave how Obama behaves, and are punished if they don’t. And frankly, I have no problem with that and don’t want a Dem nominee having to resort to a constant attack campaign.

  • @#30 JRS Jr.

    Keep in mind that you can’t tell a book by it’s cover. I am a Republican. Lifelong. I can’t remember the last time I voted for anyone in my party but I remain hopeful. There aren’t too many Lowell Weickers and the like around anymore.

  • Doctor Biobrain, I think both are excellent candidates. But this Iraq issue is pure nonsense. If Obama was a US Senator back when the vote for the war was taken, he would of voted the same way as Hillary, thats why he keeps voting to fund the war, people who think otherwise are naive. Obama is a good candidate, but he got lucky that he wasn’t in the senate to cast most Iraq votes and is now using it to his advantage.

  • If Obama was a US Senator back when the vote for the war was taken, he would of voted the same way as Hillary,

    Alex – From what I understand, Obama gave a big speech opposing the war in 2002, before it even began. Perhaps you’re right and he would have screwed up as a senator, but that speech suggests otherwise. We can assume he was planning to run for president some day and he’d have known the speech would have been used against him. I think this was more than luck.

    BTW, I too think they’re both excellent candidates, but feel that Obama is far superior and will be a better nominee and president. And part of that is that I feel Hillary makes too many mistakes with her political calculations, largely because she’s too roped into the Dem establishment and can’t see what’s really going on. And let’s not forget that, luck or not, Hillary is still lying to us about this. Perhaps Obama would too, if he had too; but we know that Hillary is.

  • Zeitgiest:

    When you are losing news cycles, creating a neutral news cycle is a win because it breaks the other person’s momentum.

    Yep. Hillary went for the cheap applause lines (attacking Bush) to stop the bleeding.
    How many times did she do it? Anybody count? At least twice. Maybe three times?

    It was a simple strategy to get a stadium full of liberal west coast democrats clapping their flippers together to punctuate some sentences for her. It was as easy as shooting fish in a barrel. Loathing the big bad Bush Orca is something everyone in Hollywood can agree on between snorts.

    Or course, it won’t play in Peoria in the Fall.

    I have to agree with jackpine savage too: but i thought that Obama was terrible.

    Yep. He is far too deferential. Far too courteous.
    When he looks at her you almost think he is going to fall to one knee like a prince before a queen.
    Which is not to say he should be rude….
    But crickey: allowing the comparison of his spouse with Hillary’s is just too servile hangdoggy for me.

    I’d be white-hot pissed if I was Michelle.
    He has got to be find a nice way to twist a knife there…
    Until he does…
    He has lost me.

  • ROTFLMLiberalAO @ 53 – Apparently you didn’t get the memo. Last week, Hillary and her supporters were all complaining that Obama was attacking her too much, and insisted that he actually started the flame war between them and was putting out the same kind of lowblows her side was. And it now appears that his strategy worked and she’s scaled back her attacks on him.

    Overall, I really think the people who think Obama is too nice are looking at it in the wrong context. You’re starting from the idea that he’s too nice and seeing everything fitting into that. But if you see it as a ruse on his part, in order to get what he wants to get, it changes everything. The mistake is that too often, we see nice people as naive puppets and bullies as realist power-people; but there is a different type of person, who can be nice but determined and who gets better results than either of the other types. That’s who Obama is. He’s nice, but determined and doesn’t back down unless it’s to his advantage. That’s how you need to see Obama. He’s smiling and polite, but he clearly knows how to fight when he needs to. That’s who we need as president.

  • Zeitgest: it’s not that it shows Hillary isn’t good on the attack. It’s that it shows Obama can effectively neutralize the effects of attacks and make them a negative for the attack. That’s an extremely valuable quality to have in a candidate.

    As hilzoy noted over at Obsidian Wings, if the Russians have chemical weapons, that doesn’t mean we need chemical weapons; it means we need suits and gas masks and all those things that neutralize their use of chemical weapons.

    The important point to take away isn’t that Hillary can sling mud with the best of them; it’s the Obama can take mud-slinging aimed at him and turn it into a positive for him, and a negative for his attacker.

    Also, Doctor BioBrain:

    I agree that in tone, the debate took place more on Hillary’s terms…but it also focused as much on policy detail as it did on vision and uplift, and that plays to Hillary’s real strengths IMO. In that sense, it was also played on her terms. I think both candidates should they are quite capable of playing the opposite’s role: Hillary came across quite well, was broadly appealing and able to remain upbeat and interesting. Obama came across as fluent in the language and details of policy, totally comfortable talking shop on wonky issues. Hillary still remains a little superior in gettting into the nitty-gritty of domestic policy, but there should be no more concerns about the location of Obama’s missing “beef”. Obama remains better-suited to weaving his policy specifics into broader themes and a larger vision for his campaign and the country, but nobody should doubt anymore that Hillary could be an effective and appealing standard-bearer for the Dem party if she wants to be.

    On the one hand, I agree with zeitgest that in the narrow sense of the political status quo, a neutral finish is a “win” for Hillary by changing the run on bad news cycles for her. On the other hand, Every contest we’ve seen so far starts out with Hillary either moderately or, in most cases, largely ahead. And then, as the contests draw near, Obama’s support spikes. It happened in every single state, even those Obama lost. It’s happening in the national polls and even in Hillary strongholds like NY, NJ, Conn., and LA. It even happened in Fla, where nobody campaigned (Obama fared far better among those who voted at the poll v absentee ballots sent in earlier, and much better with late deciders), though to a much lesser extent (in large part, I’d imagine, b/c nobody campaigned there).

    So that’s troubling for Hillary. Voters like Obama. A lot. And the more they see of him, the more they trust that he’s not just likeable, he’s also very competent. In a contest where both candidates are considered able, ready, and masters of policy (which is effectively the contest set up by last night’s debate), Obama is able to offer more than Hillary…he’s not just that, he’s also gifted with the ability to communicate a vision of the country and the world that so resonates with his diverse “base” that they spontaneously break out in chants of “U S A” during his speeches.

    So I think in the broader sense, Obama has to consider this a big win.

  • Wow! Actually complaining that Hillary was nice last nice.
    And Barak too.

    Look, Hillary has a concealed carry license, and Bill is in her holster. We’ve seen what she can do with him, taking Barak off his game with a few choice comments.

    St. John doesn’t have a chance if he’s stupid enough to think he can tangle with her. And I suspect he’s got advisors telling him he’ll have to do just that.

    And screw the MSM.

  • Doctor Biobrain – Your observations are correct, and as someone who follows politics closely, there is always a huge difference between local and federal levels. It’s much easier for a state senator to take a controvertial position than a us senator. We see it all the time, once they get to us senate they all move like sheep in the same direction as their party leaders. I really wouldn’t be dissapointed if either one becomes a candidate, as long as they will the general election. As far as the establishment goes, noone is more establishment than Kerry and Kennedy, and look who they endorsed… Lets hope in November one of these two (or maybe both?) are in the white house.

  • JRS Jr said, “I’m telling you, that was sooo W like… completely nonsensical!”

    That’s what i felt in the Iraq exchange. It sounded just like something the Decider would say. And she flat out agreed that he should have the right to just attack anyone he wants…even if the rest of the world is crying, “wait, stop, think.”

    I am seriously disturbed by the imperial president line. I don’t know what to make of it. I don’t think that it can be interpreted any way except that she believes that the president of the United States has the right to do whatever the president wants to do. And i cannot figure out how such an attitude would be any change from what we have now.

    I’m not joking or exaggerating when i say that it kept me up last night; it is provoking a philosophical crisis in me. I don’t believe 1/4 of what a candidate says on the stump, but i feel like disregarding that statement is impossible. She wasn’t making a promise she can’t keep, she was opening a window into her political philosophy. And it isn’t about Obama, nor does it spring from a personal hatred of HRC. I don’t think i can vote for anyone who believes that, because i think…no, i know…that it is wrong.

  • Lance – What are you talking about? Hillary suffered for relying on Bill too much and for her attacks. We’re now seeing that she’s been defanged. Obama is still catching up on her, and she’s been forced to toss out her ammo.

    And you can say “screw the MSM” all you want, but they’re largely responsible for giving context to each news cycle, and if they don’t like something a candidate does, it’ll hurt them. I can guarantee that each and every attack that Hillary makes against McCain will hurt her more than it helps. Even if it’s a completely fair attack, the news idiots will only discuss how mean Hillary was for making it. And the more negative she goes, the more it will hurt. And the more she relies on Bill, the more they’ll talk about how this is really his third term in office and will make her a background character in his campaign.

    While I think the media’s influence is not nearly as strong as people imagine, they still make a difference in what politicians are allowed to talk about. Perhaps you don’t think it’s a problem to see endless headlines about how Hillary bashed St. McCain, but I do. She can attack McCain all she wants, but only her supporters will hear it. Everyone else will hear about what she’s doing; not what she’s saying.

  • It’s much easier for a state senator to take a controvertial position than a us senator.

    Alex – But again, we’re talking about a state senator who believed he’d be running for the U.S. Senate, and eventually the presidency in 2008 or 2012. This wasn’t some small time guy talking because he assumed no one would listen. He knew what he was getting into, and did it anyway.

    Perhaps you’re right, but I don’t think so. I’ve seen nothing about Obama that suggests he makes the same wind-changing calculations Hillary does. Remember, she was once the DLC candidate trying to look moderate-conservative; and only became more liberal when the winds shifted. Perhaps Obama is the same, but I don’t see why we should assume it to be true. We should base our decisions on what we know; not on what we can imagine to be true.

  • It is a fair conclusion to say that Clinton won handsomely the first part with Obama riding his good luck on the part about Iraq. But if you tally the topics in the first part, there was Health Care, Immigration, Economy the three main concerns of the moment. Iraq being an equally important subject it does not equate to the first three however in the minds of voters, and they would be right. In the first part Obama many times simply repeated the good points made by Clinton. One poignant moment, was when Obama agreed that “Immigrants did not come simply to drive!” It was an idea he suggested, to give drivers licences. With Clinton having countered that this only exacerbates the problem rather than fix it and having gone on to elaborate more her truly comprehensive ideas.There was the moment when Obama listed his credentials for being President, then Clinton went on to lay down her own very lengthy and more substantial cv she had, with the spectators not failing to notice and applauding. Another moment when Clinton made it plainly evident, after Obama has suggested smugly that he had worked on some project with Kennedy in the senate, with Clinton pointing out that she had been one of the co-sponsors back in 2004 when Obama had not even entered the senate. So to me, though I repeat Obama underlined his ‘good’ judgement on Iraq, the debate showed up Clinton to be the sharply able workhorse that America needed with the coming recession – her managing qualities being the most appropriate at the moment. So indeed Hillary Clinton won the debate.

  • Wow, thanks for the link, beehive. I’ve never read it before. You’re right, it’s a good speech. Reading it reminds me that the anti-war position never was the controversial one. It only seemed controversial because the conventional wisdom was so wrong about everything. Pre-emptive war should always be controversial, and his speech makes that clear.

    Reading it also shows that Obama never was against be strong. Being tough should never be synonymous with being rude. You can stand up for what you believe in without resorting to lowblows or name calling. And as we saw in the 90’s, it’s possible to have a leader who fights alot, without standing up for much. I prefer things the other way around.

  • Didn’t Hils also use the line like “Being president is a very lonely position?” I also found that a bit W like…. wasn’t he accued right on this blog yesterday of “living in a bubble.”

    CB — why no comment on some of these head scratchers?

  • Bee thousand, I was living in Chicago (in graduate school) at the time of Obama’s anti-war speech as well, and found it to be very impressive. Right then, I knew he was going to move up the political ladder . . . I just had no idea that it would happen this fast!

  • jackpine savage:

    I am seriously disturbed by the imperial president line. I don’t know what to make of it. I don’t think that it can be interpreted any way except that she believes that the president of the United States has the right to do whatever the president wants to do. And i cannot figure out how such an attitude would be any change from what we have now.

    Better get used to it my friend.
    No way the Clintons are going to pedal that backwards.
    They live for power.
    They’ve had too much of it for too long.
    And being human beings… it has naturally ruined them.
    Power is now a drug they must have…

    So,
    I fully expect the war in Iraq to go on and on.
    (Her unwillingness to set a date is all you need to know)
    I fully expect telecom spying to continue.
    (Her opposition is almost certainly political.
    Remember she initially only found it “troubling.”)
    And of course:
    I fully expect her health care plan to end up murdered on the floor of the House.
    (Fanciful crap to get Dem votes.)

    Get used to it.
    The imperial presidency is here to stay.

  • I wasn’t able to watch the debate, but I did listen – although I heard part of it last night and the rest today – and I have to agree with everyone that while they may not have been kicking each other, this was one kick-pachyderm debate – it ought to have the GOP, and especially McCain – reaching for the Depends, because this will only be the first of many times when they will be wetting their pants between now and November.

    These are both people who can discuss what might seem to be arcane and deep-in-the-weeds policy and still bring it all back to vision – what they see for the country, what they see their roles as – and this is something I have not only not seen from the GOP contenders, but I am hard-pressed to imagine they are capable.

    What you hear is a lot of “we need to do” from the GOP, but they don’t tell you how they will make it happen. With McCain, you get a bunch of sentences that may mean something on an individual sentence basis, but strung together, they make no sense, lead nowhere and end up sounding like the foggy mutterings of someone who is lost in the past and thinks talking points equate to substance.

    Either one of these candidates can kick any of the GOP contenders from one end of a stage to the other without breaking a sweat – and I think we saw some highlights of what that will look like last night. I thought Obama’s comment that some of the wheels must have come off the Straight Talk Express was perfect – and while it was aimed at something McCain has said, it could easily have been a pointed jab at McCain’s age.

    I did miss Edwards in the mix – but I think his withholding of an endorsement has kept his influence alive, and I think that was a smart move on his part.

  • If Obama was a US Senator back when the vote for the war was taken, he would of voted the same way as Hillary, thats why he keeps voting to fund the war, people who think otherwise are naive. -Alex

    I happen to disagree, and I think there is a significant difference between starting a war and funding and ongoing war.

    If a child breaks something in a store, the parent is obligated to pay for it.

  • To further doubtful’s point @ 70, Obama’s mentor in the Senate has been Dick Durbin (much to the chagrin of those who insist it was Joe Lieberman), and Durbin both voted against the AUMF and for funding.

    Many of the reasons one would be opposed to the Iraq war from the outset would strongly lead one to believe that once there, we’d have to stay and try to “make things right” and police the sectarian violence.

  • ROTFLMLiberalAO,

    I know, i know…and it makes me sick. But are liberals/Democrats serious about this? Is this what they want?

    All this talk about how evil and wrong Bush is only to support the same ideals with different window dressing?

    Is it ok to behave like that so long as it furthers the “liberal agenda”? And how can that be a liberal agenda?

    If that is what it means to be a “progressive” then count me out. I didn’t vote for Bush because it was painfully obvious that what we have was what he represented, and i won’t vote for a Democrat who represents the same thing. I turned down my dream job as a foreign service officer because i couldn’t be a part of this insanity, and now i’m expected to vote for a continuation of this insanity and feel like i’m doing some sort of good?

  • I think it is almost impossible – and close to pointless – to try and guess how Obama would have voted. The fact is he wasn’t there; he can fault HRC for her vote, but it is a little weak given that he had the luxury of not voting at all. His emphatic opposition has toned down since he actually arrived at the Senate; Edwards’ opposition suddenly became emphatic once he left the Senate – it is pretty clear it is easier to talk than vote. Obama’s speech notwithstanding, some of the party’s most assertive, Wellstone-esque liberals in the Senate like Tom Harkin, and some of the party’s most respected Senators on foreign policy, like Biden, voted the same way Hillary did. So it is hard to see where her vote is some wild inexplicable flaw, and hard to be sure that Obama wouldn’t have looked at the positions of the Harkins and Bidens of the world, or listened to Colin Powell (who at that time remained widely respected) and said “this seems a reasonable incremental increase in pressure on Iraq, maybe this will head off a war.” To those of us out here, that level of trust may seem ridiculous, but those on the inside had more reasons to trust, and a larger historical and institutional pressure to grant such trust.

  • This Hillary/Iraq thing is confusing to me. It seems that most of the negative comments about her “vote” make it seem like she was the only one who felt the way she did. We now know that there was a great deal of deception by the Bush Administration that confused a majority of Americans about Iraq. She hasn’t come out and claimed that Bush “lied” but she has expressed “being deceived”. Remember, this was the first real action by Bush and we didn’t know he could be what he has been proven to be. A lot of us were deceived (lied to). Yet, many want to frame her as what? Stupid?-I don’t think. A war mongerer?-I don’t think so. As to Obama using this situation, I think , is disingenuous. Many people were against the Bush Admin actions, including so says Obama, but from afar and with no influence or total knowledge of the facts at the time. That’s easy and oh so right when you end up being right but compare his actions since becoming a Senator. You can’t tell them apart except her demands on Bush are more vocal and worthwhile ( i.e. plan on withdrawal, no bases in Iraq). She’s leading while he has acknowledged supporting her efforts. I think Hillary speaks for the most intelligent resolution in Iraq and I think Obama speaks from a distance just as he did before the war.

  • This Hillary/Iraq thing is confusing to me. It seems that most of the negative comments about her “vote” make it seem like she was the only one who felt the way she did. -fillphil

    Okay, although I completely disagree with almost everything you said, if I grant you the ‘fool me once’ vote to authorize and unnecessary and wasteful war because the nation was swept up in the false nationalism of revenge on Arabs, then explain the ‘won’t get fooled again’ on Kyl-Lieberman?

    Now to each point of your post:

    We now know that there was a great deal of deception by the Bush Administration that confused a majority of Americans about Iraq.

    This was not the first deception by the Bush Administration, so they were not to be trusted. Are you arguing that before March, 2002, even before September, 2001, that the Bush Administration had in any way earned the trust of America or the Democrats in Congress?

    This is a man who, in Texas, laughed at people condemned to die. A psychopath. No reason not to give him the means to war. None.

    Remember, this was the first real action by Bush and we didn’t know he could be what he has been proven to be.

    I thought the first real action by Bush was to use the Supreme Court to declare victory before a full vote count could be tallied.

    A lot of us were deceived (lied to).

    Maybe by the Bush Administration, who I already didn’t trust. But most of the rest of the world was more reasoned…if only we had listened to other, contradictory sources and exercised a bit of caution.

    Yet, many want to frame her as what? Stupid?-I don’t think. A war mongerer?-I don’t think so.

    Okay, how about given to bad judgment? Bereft of the wisdom? I certainly don’t think she’s stupid. She was one of many who made an awful mistake and hundreds and thousands of people have died for it. I hold her accountable as I do all of them.

    Many people were against the Bush Admin actions, including so says Obama, but from afar and with no influence or total knowledge of the facts at the time.

    Obama could’ve been listening to all of the other sources who weren’t gung-ho on revenge and misdirecting us from our true enemy, Osama bin Laden.

    I think Hillary speaks for the most intelligent resolution in Iraq and I think Obama speaks from a distance just as he did before the war.

    As I said earlier, I think JRS Jr hit the nail on the head: Clinton sounded like Bush. More articulate, yes, but her rationalization for her vote and support of the war left me feeling hollow and dreadful that her intentions and her plan didn’t quite match.

    “Knowing that he was a megalomaniac, knowing he would not want to compete for attention with Osama bin Laden, there were legitimate concerns about what he might do.” -Hillary Clinton

    What about that makes you think that she has garnered wisdom from her experience and the judgment to make the right choice when dooming thousands of Americans and hundreds of thousands of other people to death?

    I’ll certainly grant the Clinton supporters that Obama didn’t have to vote on it, so we aren’t certain what he would do. We have only his word, just as we only have Clinton’s word that she wants to end this war. From what I’ve seen in her actions and her justifications for those actions, I do not believe her.

  • A lot of us were deceived (lied to). Yet, many want to frame her as what? Stupid?-I don’t think. A war mongerer?-I don’t think so.

    Zeit – Could you please tell us then what you think this says about Hillary? I’d like to see you finish that thought. Because it’s my assertion that this wasn’t about Saddam at all. This was a political calculation she made and she got it wrong; and that’s what we were saying at the time. But please, let’s go ahead and assume that Obama would have made the same mistake, simply because it makes Hillary more palatable. Are there any other votes you think we should attribute to Obama that he wasn’t able to make? Should we assume that Hillary would have made that excellent anti-war speech, were she not in the Senate at the time?

    But seriously, stop treating us like the fools that Hillary is playing us for. She’s trying to pull an absurd sham and you’re so ashamed that you can only look the other way and need to assume that Obama would have done just as badly. I don’t blame you, as I’d be as ashamed of it as I’ve been of Obama for not taking a firm stand against telecom immunity. Just admit that this is an embarrassing mistake in Hillary’s otherwise decent record and move on. We all know the truth, and it’s just embarrassing to suggest otherwise.

    And let’s face it, the only reason she hasn’t admitted that it was a boneheaded political calculation is because that would hurt her politically. But she’s not in denial about this, so I don’t see why we need to be either.

  • Doubtful: You sound just like Obama. You knew all there was to know before anyone else. That’s doubtful.

  • I don’t think Hillary was defanged. Obama had to keep a pretty civil tongue in his head yesterday too. If he hadn’t I imagine Hillary would have tried to give as good as she got.

    I don’t think she’s out of ammo. I think she just holstered her gun.

    Damnit, that’s what you ALL were demanding she do. Don’t attack another Democrat! So she stopped. Now Dr. Birdbrain wants to complain that she’s not the fighter we were promised she would be.

    Hillary is not going to change her tune on her vote on the AUMF. And considering the way some of you behave here, complaining when she confronts her opponent and then complaining when she doesn’t, I see no reason why she ought to give you the satisfaction.

  • Re #76,

    Yep, if you are suggesting that Hillary voted for the AUMF so she could run for president, and you knew it at the time and said so, then I believe you.

    And I agree with you…

    And I think she was right to do it…

    And I think she will never change her tune now.

    George H.W. Bush lied to the American people in 1988 when he said he could stop Congress from raising our taxes. I knew he was lying right there and then.

    And I voted for him in 1988.

    And he raised taxes with Congress.

    And the next day he blamed Congress instead of taking the heat himself.

    And in 1992 I voted against him and he lost.

    I suppose I’m awfully cynical. I don’t see any value in Hillary beating her breasts over voting for the AUMF and BGII going to war.

  • Lance,

    Bill Clinton vs. John McCain is *not* a comparison the Democrats will profit by.

    I know and you know that Bill has more policy understanding, intellectual curiosity and basic smarts in his small finger than McCain does in his whole body. He–and much more to the point, Senator Clinton (whom I would find so much more appealing, at this point, if she weren’t carrying the Bill Baggage)–are the people you want minding the store in recessionary times; they’ll be smart and discerning and responsible on the economic management front. McCain, that economic naif, will default to “What does Grover say?”

    But, to Dr. B’s point, it won’t get to that; the McCain-loving press won’t let it. No, it’ll be all-Vietnam era experience, all the time: McCain getting tortured while Bubba was getting laid, McCain spitting in his guards’ faces while Bill was demonstrating in Moscow. Does that sound like fun to you? Does that sound like a debate the Democrat can ever, ever win–even were we not “at war” during its course?

    Obama’s opening argument was that it’s time to get past the endless arguments about the ’60s. It’s part of his closing argument too, and new political realities (nobody saw McCain coming six months ago) render it timely now.

  • One thing I’d just like to mention is that the Iraq vote isn’t an isolated incident, but rather is symptomatic of the entire Clinton method. In essence, they’re not proactive fighters, but reactive. They wait for their opponents to establish the playing field, and then they find a key position to hide in which allows them to declare a relatively easy victory. Which is good in the short term, but in the long term, they end up going deeper into their own territory every time.

    That’s how we got into Iraq in the first place. How often did we hear Bill’s and Hillary’s words come back to haunt us during the build-up to the war, and even afterwards? Too often. But why was Iraq such a big deal in the 90’s? They never threatened us. They weren’t going to attack us. I’m not big on countries flauting the UN or torturing people and whatnot; but are we going to pretend this was some special case for Iraq? Of course not. Some of our key allies do the same thing. The truth is that this was a big issue because the war mongers wanted to attack Iraq, and so Bill played it the best he could. He allowed them to set the stage, and then worked to stop their goals on it. But in the meantime, he wasted too much time on an issue that wasn’t vital to America’s security. And when he finally left, it really didn’t take too much, relatively speaking, for Bush to launch an unnecessary pre-emptive war that continues to screw us up to this day.

    And that’s the thing, for as much as he was credited with it, Bill never did have the vision thing. He talked a good game, but in the end, always worked within the contraints that the conservatives set for him. Because he waited for them to make their move, and then reacted to it; rather than taking the initiative. And I suspect it’s because they just like winning battles, and don’t really have any broader goals beyond that.

    And that’s exactly how Hillary looks now, and is why I prefer Barack. It’s not just a fluke that he’s better at staying on message and projecting a vision. That’s what he does. He’s not going to waste time combating every little squabble, but tries to focus on the Big Picture and staying with his own narrative. And it works, and is what we need in a president. Not someone who waits to find out where his opponent is going, but moving ahead, forcing his opponent to run to catch up with him. And so we see Fighter Hillary now playing nice with Obama, just as he had planned. It was obvious that Hillary’s strategy was to pull him into a mudfight to sully him, but he ended up pulling her out of the mud and sidelining Bill.

    And that’s the same kind of stuff conservatives did to the Clintons throughout the 90’s. As I’ve said before, I always defended that crap, but I never liked it. I want a president I’m proud to support; not another I’m ashamed to defend.

  • You knew all there was to know before anyone else. -fillphil

    I was adamantly opposed to the war because I was paying attention. Do not try to rewrite history just so you can give a pass to a bad vote by your chosen candidate. I was opposed to war with Iraq from the moment I heard the drums beating just as I am now. You can attack me all you want and insinuate that I am being disingenuous, but that doesn’t change the fact that Bush was lying then and a lot of people said as much.

    I’m not claiming to have known all before anyone else, but I am claiming to have doubted the Bush Administration (the origins of my pseudonym actually), and I felt like we should have approached the whole situation with more caution. Obama and myself are not the only people who felt this way. I recall a large number of Democrats used to also agree, but I guess it is no longer convenient for some of them to remember it that way. How very Republican for you all to so easily rewrite history.

    But all in all a nice rebuttal, though. A little ad hominem questioning my integrity with a clever twist at the end. Well done.

  • Just to make this look like a real wankfest, I’d like to second what dajafi @ 80 just said about how a Clinton v. McCain matchup will play in the press. Moreover, for as much as Hillary’s supporters say that we already know all of Hillary’s skeletons, that’s entirely besides the point. Because most of the crap against her was entirely invented. And it never even helped to have this crap debunked. As we all know, the media is in love with their zombie facts, and so Gore still invented the Internet and Hillary did horrible things in Whitewater, Filegate, Travelgate, etc. With her as the nominee or president, you’ll feel like you just went through a time machine and all the zombie facts will come back to haunt us all over again.

    And as dajafi said, it’ll be the POW v. the Hippy. And you’ll hear repeatedly about how much Hillary loved Woodstock, while McCain was “tied up at the time.” Nobody really cared if Clinton was a pot-smoking draft-dodger any more than they cared that Bush was a coke-snorting draft-dodger. They just didn’t like Bill and so they’ll take whatever attacks they can find. And it’ll be like that all over again with Hillary. I’m under no delusion that Obama will get a free-ride, but anyone who doesn’t understand that the Clintons are the media’s Public Enemy #1 is living in a dream.

  • IF NOBAMA WOULD HAVE BEEN THERE TO VOTE FOR THE IRAQ WAR OR NOT? AS HISTORY SHOWS HE WOULD HAVE VOTED ‘PRESENT’ –SO FROM THAT- I HAVE NEVER VOTED FOR A REPUBLICAN– BUT IF NOBAMA IS THE DEMO (PRAY NOT) I WILL VOTE FOR THE OTHER SIDE.

  • Dr. Biobrain @ 76, you’d have a lot more credibility getting all over my case if you’d actually quote my words instead of fillphil’s when you do it. I’m happy to defend what I said at # 73 (in fact, I think my discussion there addresses some of your points), and I trust fillphil can defend his or her post # 74.

    Taking a deep breath before posting sometimes helps.

  • you’d have a lot more credibility getting all over my case if you’d actually quote my words instead of fillphil’s when you do it.

    Ha! I’d rather use the wrong person’s name than support the wrong candidate.

    Beyond that, what I wrote mostly applies to what you said anyway. Why are you still pretending as if this was an issue of trust. Hillary knows this wasn’t about trusting Bush or removing Saddam from power. The truth was out there, and Hillary was one of those who ignored it, in a futile attempt to not be labeled an unpatriotic America hater in future elections. That’s all it was about. And again, Obama was in that same boat. He was planning an upcoming U.S. Senate campaign and I’m sure he was eyeing the Whitehouse. He knew what his anti-war speech would do, and he gave it anyway. So he’s using that to his advantage, while Hillary continues to treat us all like idiots.

    Honestly, if things turned out differently and the war wasn’t the embarrassment that we all see it was, but instead was an embarrassment to liberals to have opposed it; would Hillary be saying “Oh, it’s alright that Senator Obama opposed the war, because he would have supported it if he was in the Senate like me.” Of course not. She’d be slamming him as a pro-Saddam idiot who would rather see Saddam running Iraq; just as Republicans did in the past. Look, I know you don’t like it, but he’s on the record for opposing the war in 2002, even though he probably believed it would come up in his presidential run; which it has. And now we’re supposed to pretend it didn’t happen? How convenient.

  • As Hillary implied straight at the start , when the sloganism end, because it will end at some point after the election – vague things like “past and present”, “change” ( this from someone glorifying his acquistion of one of THE establishment figure in Washington – a man heavily anchors in the past and really not a change-oriented figure), when the slogans end on election day, the re will be a job to be done in the white house, demanding hard work and managing qualities like a lwoman Hillary has in abundance. The debate was like listening a pupil, Obama and the masterly Hillary Clinton. Okay he called a good call on Iraq, but right now young people will be needing jobs to go to when they get out of college not slogans. It is Hillary’s day. No doubt.

  • The idea that Sen Clinton was “mislead” is contradicted by her statement that she made a “reasoned decision” last night…but that isn’t the important one. No one, least of all me, would expect her to stand up in a vote of 99 – 1 against the AUF. But 23 Senators got it right. Sen Byrd was standing all by himself in the chamber the day of the vote wondering aloud why no one was there debating. Those 23 Senators were not mislead.

    None-the-less, i’d be willing to forgive that vote. (And i’m not sure that Obama would have voted against it; i don’t approach this issue as the supporter of a candidate, but as a citizen.) I am still far more upset by her “no” vote on the Levin amendment and her reasoning for it.

    And i’m with doubtful, it didn’t take a whole lot of horse sense to see what kind of mess this would become from the first rumble of the war drums. I didn’t even make it to the actual invasion before i had to leave the country for two years to cool off.

  • So Doctor Biobrain (and your civility in the interest of your own blog hits seems to have taken a backseat. . .) how do you explain the majority of Senate Democrats, including firebrand liberals and foriegn policy pros who voted the same way Clinton did? Were they all posturing for future political ambitions?

    Your argument would more make sense if it were Clinton and a handful of Blue Dogs in a small breach of party lines. But it is an interesting phenomenon that all of these other Senate Democrats cast the same vote without their motives being impugned, but with Clinton, well, you know she’s just engaging in ad hoc lying about her reasoning.

  • If I understand correctly, Dr. Birdbrain’s argument is that Hillary will lose to McCain because the MSM will lie about her.

    But Obama will win because the MSM won’t lie about him.

    How exactly is that going to work?

    Nope, I think that sauce to the white goose will be sauce for the black gander. We had better be ready for lies about either one. ‘Cause somehow I don’t think Obama-ite whining is going to silence the swift-boaters.

  • But it is an interesting phenomenon that all of these other Senate Democrats cast the same vote without their motives being impugned, but with Clinton, well, you know she’s just engaging in ad hoc lying about her reasoning.

    Uhm, Zeit? What are you talking about? What liberals haven’t been impugning the motives of these schmucks since the vote happened? It was a disgrace, one which Kerry apologized for. And yes, I have no doubts why he did it either. But this is the exact thing we’ve been talking about for years; that Dems won’t take a stand against Republicans and will just roll over and do their bidding. Twenty-nine Democratic Senators voted for authorization, and I impugn the integrity of each one of those idiots. They were all worried that voting against it would hurt them politically, just like what happened after the first Gulf War, and thought it was a no-brainer to vote yes. But as we all know, that was dumb and they all got attacked as unpatriotic traitors anyway. Did it really not occur to you that politicians often base their decisions on how they play politically? Really??

    But tell me this, which lies was it that you imagine she believed? How did she get suckered? I ask, because it never made any sense. If we needed to attack, we should have attacked in the 90’s; yet almost Democrats suggested such a thing back then. Then 9/11 happened, making an attack an even worse idea. So what lies did Hillary believe that tricked her into supporting war? I know the BS she said at the debate, something about Saddam competing for attention with Bin Laden; but that didn’t make any sense. Even if Saddam had WMD’s, there was no reason to believe he’d use them against us. All he wanted was for us to leave him the hell alone, so he could torture his people in private, and the primary reason he couldn’t is because conservatives wanted to invade. So what lies did she fall for?

    One final thing to remember: The authorization wasn’t necessary. There was still plenty of time for a formal declaration of war. Instead, Republicans suckered Dems into accepting a pre-election resolution which they’d pretend wasn’t a war declaration, but which everyone knew was one. Even if Hillary foolishly believed war was a good idea, that resolution was absurd and Democrats should surely have tried to stop it, or at least delay it until after the election. Hillary didn’t just vote for war; she voted to allow Republicans to screw us over. And if you want to believe it’s because she’s an idiot who trusted Bush, I can’t imagine why you think that helps.

  • If I understand correctly, Dr. Birdbrain’s argument is that Hillary will lose to McCain because the MSM will lie about her. But Obama will win because the MSM won’t lie about him.

    Yeah, because I said something like that. Oh wait, I didn’t. I was just admitting the truth: The media hates the Clintons more than anyone. I’m under no delusion that Obama will get a free-ride, which are the exact words that I wrote above, but we already know how badly they’ll distort anything about Hillary. Hell, Hillary’s people are already saying that, insisting that they’re distorting her record and helping Barack. I’m sure they know what they’re talking about.

    And what’s up with the insults? Dr. Birdbrain? Really??

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