If it feels bad, do it

The WaPo and the LAT both ran good front-page pieces today on John McCain’s new political problem. After having mended fences with some of the less-sane elements of his party, the Arizona senator and 2008 presidential candidate is suddenly finding himself losing support because of his opposition to torture. It’s a trend that speaks volumes about the GOP’s values.

Sen. John McCain’s bid to position himself as the natural heir to President Bush as a wartime commander in chief and to court conservative leaders in advance of his likely 2008 presidential campaign has threatened to run aground in recent days, as the two men clash over how to detain and try terrorism suspects. […]

In a reprise of criticism showered on McCain during his 2000 campaign, some prominent conservatives are branding him a disloyal Republican and an unreliable conservative because of his assertiveness on the detainee issue.

The senator’s actions “are blocking our ability to gain from terrorist captives the vital information we need,” said a front-page editorial Saturday in the Union Leader of Manchester, N.H., the largest newspaper in the state with the first presidential primary. Conservative radio talker Rush Limbaugh said Friday that opposition to Bush’s approach “is going to go down as the event that will result in us getting hit again, and if we do, and if McCain, et al. , prevail, I can tell you where fingers are going to be pointed.”

That’s right; Rush Limbaugh told his national audience that McCain will be at least partially responsible for future terrorist attacks on the United States.

McCain’s resistance to Bush’s plan is also drawing fire from so-called religious leaders in the conservative movement. The Rev. Louis P. Sheldon, chairman of the Traditional Values Coalition and a vocal supporter of the administration’s proposal, said, “This very definitely is going to put a chilling effect on the tremendous strides he has made in the conservative evangelical community.”

Think about that for a second — an alleged Christian minister is angry with a lawmaker for opposing torture. This is what today’s right has come to.

I can’t help but laugh at the irony. Over the last several decades, the right has condemned the left’s approach to morality. You’ve no doubt heard the exhortations — liberals refuse to embrace moral absolutes; they believe “if it feels good, do it”; their “moral relativism” fails in large part because it lacks clear guidelines for personal behavior.

What American society needs, conservatives have told us for generations, is less moral nuance and more clear lines between right and wrong. The left’s inability to accept black-and-white decency continues to undermine Democrats’ standing in communities across the country.

Except now, when it comes to torture, everyone has switched sides. The left insists that torture is wrong; the right insists it’s occasionally necessary. The left sees moral absolutes; the right sees nuances and situational ethics. Perhaps the most common complaint from conservatives lately is that the left, on the issue of abusing detainees, isn’t morally relativistic enough.

I’m not sure when, exactly, the right started to believe “if it feels bad, do it,” but it’s right around the time the conservative movement lost its soul.

This is another one of those moments in recent history when I can’t believe what I read and see — Shiavo, warrantless wiretaps, New Orleans — is the United States of America Congress really debating whether or not it’s ok to torture people? Put another way, will there be a country there to save after the Republicans have had their way with it? The rape of the founding father’s ideals is nearly complete.

  • Actually, that’s a nice list of critics that McCain has amassed. Almost makes him look respectable. Alas, I’m betting he’ll cave — and fairly soon.

  • McCain is in a world of hurt right now, and not just from what I call the Utopian Right. Here’s Bill Kristol yesterday:

    “Four Republicans joined the Democratic senators–John McCain, John Warner, Lindsey Graham, and Susan Collins. Colin Powell is with them. So the Democrats have cover.

    “No, they don’t. The fact that McCain has badly damaged his 2008 presidential chances doesn’t mean the Democrats can’t be hurt in 2006.”

    http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/012/711lzwcj.asp

    Kristol is a neconservative, not a fundamentalist. If he’s also throwing McCain under the bus because of this, I wonder who he and the fundamentalists are going to get behind in ’08. Giuliani and his pro-choice views? Mitt Romney?

    Seems to me McCain’s still in the driver’s seat, but that this could all get real ugly for the Republican Party over the next two years. I give the inside track to whoever favors torture the most.

  • The GOP has clearly left reality behind.

    Whether you get your rocks off torturing people (as Bush, Gonzales, and other psychotic pre-adolescents apparently do), or are horrified by it (as any grownup civilized person would be), in the real world torture (1) produces misinformation and (2) comes back to bite you.

    I’m amazed we’re even debating this in the 21st century.

  • What kind of traditional values does Rev. Louis P. Sheldon support here?

    What era’s traditions? The Inquisition? Dark Ages? Khmer Rouge Year Zero? The Crusades? The Punic Wars?

    What’s the motto of his org? Pluck an eye for Jayzus?

    Just curious.

  • Folks set the record straight for one last time- SECRET CIA PRISONS IN THE EU CONSTITUTION, UN CHARTER AND GENEVA CONVENTIONS ARE ILLIGAL PLAIN AND SIMPLE. Our president has admitted to WAR CRIMES against humanity. Therefore the discussion should not be should we allow torture it should be do we as a nation have the moral compass to hold our leaders responsible for wrong doings. I keep reading the same things everyday about torture should we do it or should we not. Torture has never gained actionable info. ever. So please for the sake of our democracy please start a conversation on the real issue and that is has the president and his administration commited WAR CRIMES and if so are we the people going to hold them accountable or not. Someone please answer this. Its our country and we need an answer.

  • I personally cant stand the Religious Right “leadership”, McCain or Rush

    but …..given a choice between Hilary Clinton and John McCain (Repubs best bet with moderates) in 2008 who do you think Lou Sheldon, Rush and other CONS are going to hold their noses and vote for……

    Yep thats right John McCain

    So if Im John McCain RIGHT NOW,
    I tell these idiots to shove it!!!!!!!!

    I would gain alot of respect for McCain if he stood his ground, especially on this issue…(Wouldnt it be appropriate that a former TORTURED P.O.W would stand up and support the troop protections offered within the Geneva Conventions, instead of SELFISHLY pandering to draft dodgers and religious opportunists)

  • I don’t know that McCain will cave on this one, Jim. Unlike the mobs of chickenhawks in his party, he’s a man who has actually been tortured.

    Please God, can we see Shrub sitting in a glass booth? Please?

  • “an alleged Christian minister is angry with a lawmaker for opposing torture.”

    No surprise when you consider what sort of so-called Christian we are dealing with. Ever heard of the Left Behind books? The Hateniks who give God a bad name base their entire world view on three incorrect ideas:
    1. God loves them best.
    2. Anything they do or like is OK.
    3. Sinners (non-Evangelicals) will be subjected to unspeakable torment while the “elect” watch from the clouds.

    Torture of non-Evangelicals fits perfectly within the fundy world view. These Perverts for Christ see it as some sort of manifestation of God’s will. And since the heathens are going to hell anyway, who cares what happens to them?

    I hope that even if McCain does cave, no one else caves with him. He has a chance to go down in history as a hero, we’lll see if he blows it.

  • Farinata X: You know what? This country is going down the tubes. You what else? It deserves to.

    from V for Vendetta: How did this happen? Who’s to blame? Well certainly there are those more responsible than others, and they will be held accountable, but again truth be told, if you’re looking for the guilty, you need only look into a mirror.

    we sat on our asses and did NOTHING after the supremes made smirkey mcBruisey preznit. and still did nothing after the bullshit 04 ‘election.’

    notice me not mentioning Abu Ghraib, the Downing Street Memos, Gitmo, torture, renditions to other countries and on and on and on. |-(

  • I heard this morning on the radio that the White House had provided some “revised language” to their bill in hopes of placating some of the opposition. I think it’s called “cover.”

    On the other hand, perhaps my cynicism trigger is too sensitive after all these years of watching Arlen Specter.

  • McCain will never be their man. The don’t trust him and they don’t care about moderates. He’s not going to fold, he can’t. He has drawn a line in the sand and if he backs down, he will have absolutely zero credibility.

    We keep talking about torture and the lack of info it gives. This is exactly how the right wants this debate framed. Fuck that, torture is wrong even if we get good info, that is it.

    It’s all non-sense.

    And will someone please ask god Pat Robertson who is more unacceptable, homosexuals or torturers ?

  • ***…stuff about Limbaugh and Sheldon…***

    It is truly a sad day for America when people lend blind allegiance to an obtuse, overweight dope fiend and a bona fide representative of “The Infernal Kingdom of Theofascia.”

    The only way to neutralize these thugs is to give them what they give others—but if you want, schedule the delivery for “after” they finish pummeling Mr. DoubleSpeak Express into the political dirt, as he has earned every last grain of the crop he now reaps….

  • “The answer is orange” nailed it.

    These people believe that torture is good. Their God promises to torture people ETERNALLY for not believing in him. (just like Allah promises, BTW)

    When you wrap your mind around that, you pretty much get used to the idea of torture.

    I pity them, but I wish they would go see Jesus.

  • If McCain was truly a maverick, he would point out the fact that when it comes to torture, he knows what the fack he is talking about, unlike Dick (Deferment) Cheney, George (AWOL) Bush and the rest of the chickenhawks who have never served their country. I would love to see this happen. And I don’t mean the neutered McCain of recent years – I mean the short tempered, red faced, veins popping out of his neck McCain. I am telling you, the media and the public would eat that up.

    Don’t hold your breath waiting for this to happen.

  • “Their God promises to torture people ETERNALLY for not believing in him.” – Racerx

    Not quite right. Their God practices rendition. He hands the sinful over to Satan and lets Satan do all the torturing. God and Jesus, they don’t practice torture, oh no! They abide by the Geneva Conventions 😉

    And thus our Boy George II is quite god-like, in that he hands terrorists over to the Demonic Syrians (Egyptians, Saudis) to torture, but he doesn’t do it himself.

    By the way, I’ve got to agree that McCain does not need to cave. The Republican’ts really don’t have another possible Candidate, and it’s getting late to start one up (Frist, Brownback, ha!).

  • Susan said: “Please God, can we see Shrub sitting in a glass booth? Please?”

    Bush would join Adolf Eichmann in the pantheon of the despicable? Priceless.

  • The senator’s actions “are blocking our ability to gain from terrorist captives the vital information we need,” said a front-page editorial Saturday in the Union Leader of Manchester

    or: The senator’s actions are blocking our ability to keep our majorities in the house and senate by unanimously aligning against the democratic terrorist appeasers.

    Conservative radio talker Rush Limbaugh said Friday that opposition to Bush’s approach “is going to go down as the event that will result in us getting hit again

    or: Opposition to Bush’s approach is going to go down as the event that will result in us getting hit with higher taxes again after the republicans lose their majorities in the house and senate and a democrat is elected to the president in 2008 on a platform of restoring fiscal sanity.

    They ought to just take McCain out and torture the traitor.

  • I give the inside track to whoever favors torture the most.

    that would have to be Dr. Frist given his experience with cats.

  • How McCain got his groove back. If McCain caves on this he is lost. Will he have to raise his hand to vote? He can’t do it. He was tortured.

  • The North Vietnamese tortured John McCain 35 years ago and the Republican party of wackos is torturing him today. McCain is between a rock and a hard place. Will he sell out his honor to run for president?

    To the fans of ancient Greek tragedies and the Faustian myth: “Pass the popcorn.”

  • Now slip kid, Shrub isn’t in Adolf Eichmann territory (there’s a good new book on Eichmann, btw) but he’s certainly a war criminal and has condoned crimes against humanity. Thus the glass booth.

  • It’s not gonna be McCain, we knew that even before this. Now we know it won’t be Allen even if he survives Webb. And Huckabee raised taxes.

    Who’s gonna get into the race? Danforth? Lugar? Racicot? Keating?

    Somebody must be working behind the scenes right now.

  • So, the Republican leadership is turning on McCain because he won’t “toe the party line.”

    I’m sure Joe Lieberman understands completely…

  • “So, the Republican leadership is turning on McCain because he won’t “toe the party line.”

    I’m sure Joe Lieberman understands completely…” – Todd

    Well, McCain isn’t calling his opponents traitors, or giving cover to those who do (Boy George II, Cheney, et al). Lieberman attacks Democrats for disagreeing with him. McCain just challenges Republican’ts to match his level of seriousness (Thank God Warner did) as opposed to the Bushite childishness.

  • The story that came out today about Maher Arar, the victim of extraordinary rendition, being declared officially innocent, should, in a moral nation be sparking widespread outrage. This is why torture is bad: because the person we torture we always think is guilty. Even if torture could be moral “in certain situations,” the fact that we declare someone guilty without trial is clearly unconstitutional.

    I’m not sure if there is a clear line when a person, or a nation, officially becomes evil. But, this nation is clearly in dangerous territory for becoming so.

    As for McCain … and people think Hillary is polarizing?

  • If the Democrats really want to get behind this, they should get on TV as much as possible and explain why torture is wrong– and don’t just say, “it’s not reliable”; say “Torture does not produce a reliable result so we’re going to end up torturing many people to get something that often is going to make no difference, and we’re even going to end up torturing at least relatively innocent people sometimes– the results is going to be that the people who do the torturing are going to learn the lesson that it’s ok to do horrible things to people.” And make the parallels- say, “Germany, Mussolini’s Italy, etc., that was all only a few decades ago. Are you telling me we’re too stupid to learn those lessons, we can’t learn those lessons? We can’t prevent our own country from becoming that?”

    Right now, Republicans are like Nazis who don’t even know they’re Nazis. So Democrats have some explaining to do. Most people, including most liberals, are so dumb right now that they’d do anything an official-looking person asked them to do; they’d be sending the Jews and the Blacks to Auschwitz before they realized what they were doing was wrong. Dems have to make sure people are looking at things.

  • I really worry for the spouses and families of the CIA and Military personnel we are teaching to be torturers. It was bad enough that Special Operations soldiers were killing their families after having returned from battle. And they were just in intense combat situations. Nothing as soul-destroying as being Boy George II’s torturers.

  • The point about the Right’s moral relativism is a very important one, and readers of this site should notice where else it applies in this Administration — just about everywhere. Even before 9/11 I remember reading a piece (in Salon.com, I think) arguing for GWB as the first post-modern president, where “facts” depend on the point of view of the observer, i.e., Bush and his cronies. Post 9/11, this has become official policy, famously in opposition to “the reality-based community.”

    The Left really should be hammering home the point that everything the Right used to accuse us of — moral relativism, creating a nanny state, the culture of victimhood, political correctness, lack of fiscal restraint, being beholden to special interests and identity politics — the Right, now controlling all branches of the gov’t, now does unrepentantly, in spades.

    Is the student now the master? That all depends on what your definition of “is” is.

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