‘If the public doesn’t know what torture is or is not…’

I hate to admit — really, I do — but this week, none other than Bill O’Reilly asked one of the best questions in a Bush interview in a very long time. Maybe he did it by accident, maybe he asked it expecting the president to have a better answer, but whatever the explanation, it led to an important exchange.

O’Reilly sat down with the president and asked him about torture of detainees in U.S. custody. The Fox News personality brought up waterboarding, prompting Bush to say, “We don’t talk about techniques. And the reason we don’t talk about techniques is because we don’t want the enemy to be able to adjust.”

Now, I’ve never quite understood how terrorist suspects could “adjust” in preparation for waterboarding. As Jon Stewart once joked, what are they going to do, grow gills?

Nevertheless, O’Reilly followed up, asking if waterboarding is torture, regardless of whether we’ve utilized the method of interrogation or not. Bush dodged and said, “I’ve said all along to the American people we won’t torture, but we need to be in a position where we can interrogate these people.”

O’Reilly’s responded, “But if the public doesn’t know what torture is or is not, as defined by the Bush administration, how can the public make a decision on whether your policy is right or wrong?”

At which point Bush looked around the room, cleared his throat, leaned forward, and said, “Uh, isn’t this a Fox News interview? Aren’t you Bill O’Reilly? How about you ixnay on the orture-tay?”

No, not really, but I bet he thought it.

The president’s actual response was about as compelling.

“Well, one thing is that you can rest assured we’re not going to talk about the techniques we use in a public forum. No matter how hard you try because I don’t want the enemy to be able to adjust their tactics if we capture them on the battlefield.

“But what the American people need to know is we’ve got a program in place that is able to get intelligence from these people. And we’ve used it to stop attacks. The intelligence community believes strongly that the information we got from the detainee questioning program yielded information that made America safer, that we stopped attacks. […]

“What’s interesting about these votes that took place in the Congress is the number of Democrats that opposed questioning people we’ve picked up on the battlefield. And I think that’s an issue that they’re going to have to explain to the American people.”

In other words, when asked how Americans can judge the president’s policy if we don’t know what torture is by the White House’s standards, Bush said, “Trust me; I know what I’m doing. And by the way, Democrats are bad, because they keep asking pesky questions and talking about pesky laws. Heh heh.”

What’s more, Andrew Sullivan raised a good point about the president’s use of the word “questioning.”

Here’s his description of torture: “questioning people we’ve picked up on the battlefield.” It’s a direct lie on many levels. Many of those we have tortured were not on any battlefield. Many in Gitmo are innocent and many have been released as innocent. Secondly, we have moved from the plain English “torture” to “coercive interrogation techniques” to mere “questioning.” This is simply lying. If the president were asking for the right merely to question detainees, there would be no debate at all. But he isn’t. And we all know that, don’t we? Even those who support the president on this have to concede he’s lying, right?

I’m afraid those who support the president aren’t in the mood to concede anything right now; they have an election to win.

“Even those who support the president on this have to concede he’s lying, right?” – Andrew Sullivan

You’ve been sitting next to the Kool-aid drinkers and you really have to ask that question?

Boy George II’s big lie here is that we’ve discovered plots through “coercive interrogation techniques” and foiled them. We’ve never discovered anything except the pained and frightened imaginings of some broken ex-terrorists, which we immediately expended millions to “protect against” and when no attack materialized, claimed success.

I don’t believe the twit for a minute.

  • “Mohammed, why are you waterskiing on your head?”
    “I’m training for waterboarding.”

    This whole thing makes me a little ashamed that I like 24 so much. It shows a tiny bit of ambiguity on the torture issue, but what I’ve seen so far (4th season) they’ve shown torture as effective in giving them that vital piece of info to save the world.

    It just doesn’t work that way.

  • “Well, one thing is that you can rest assured we’re not going to talk about the techniques we use in a public forum. No matter how hard you try…”

    Sounds like a challenge to me Bushy Boy. Pliers, pliers who’s got the pliers?

    Seriously, I find this statement particularly alarming because it tells me Shrub doesn’t think anyone who is subjected to these “questioning techniques” (torture) will ever get a chance to tell the world what was done to them (one hole one bullet no waiting). This means anyone who is detained (dragged out of his home at 4 a.m.) may as well go down fighting (sleep in Semtex PJs). It also tells me Shrub approved each technique (while masturbating like a coked-up monkey). See you at the Hauge traitor!

  • I quit watching 24 during the first season because I said to friends it was trying to condition American viewers to accept torture. If you watch tv, you think that police actually have to get search warrants to break into your home. That really isn’t the case any more, but as long as it is true on tv, viewers don’t think their rights have been comprimised.

    To make it perfectly clear to those reading blogs, I am not an enemy combatant even though my t-shirt states: Give me liberty or give me Gitmo.

  • I’ve always been ambivalent about 24, given that it’s violent and preposterous, even if entertaining. I stopped watching during the third season as it seemed to have devolved into plain fascist pornography, glorifying myths of torture and righteous violence, and feeding off of xenophobic fearmongering. I’m frankly ashamed I ever watched it.

  • OK, someone from the press, please, just this once, ask Mr Bush who he’s talking about. Which Democrats?

    If Bush can’t name a single Democrat who is “opposed [to] questioning people we’ve picked up on the battlefield”, ask him why he lied about what Democrats really advocate.

    But noooo… OMFG, not the L word. Anything but that. So uncivilized. Unfortunately, that’s what he did right there. He lied. No Democrat ever advocated anything remotely like what he’s accused them of. So Bush is… a goddam liar.

    The press has a choice, thay can either let lies stand (again) or call Bush on his bullshit.

    I’m sure the “liberal media” will get right on this one, just like all the other strawman attacks Bush has launched.

  • Bill Clinton got to me when we found what really happened, having told his friends and swearing to the country that he didn’t have “sexual relations with that woman.” I couldn’t even look at him for a long time after that.

    But Bush distorts and misleads (call it “lies”) as a matter of normal speech. He does it so often and easily that it’s hardly remarkable. He expects us to trust him to do the right thing in secret when we can’t trust him to tell the truth about what happens in public. When Bush refers to “the number of Democrats that opposed questioning people we’ve picked up on the battlefield,” he’s flat out lying. Yet, we’re supposed to trust him. UFB – unbelievable.

  • If you invert the subject of all Bushes’ talking points with O’liarly, it reads as the indictment of the West, and the justification of the attacks on us.
    Imagine that.

  • His advice to the next president? “Stand on principle.”

    As if this worthless sonofabitch would know what a principle was if he stepped on one (which he does, daily).

  • I’ve never quite understood how terrorist suspects could “adjust”…

    I can think of a scenario. You heard about the female interrogator who smeared fake menstrual blood on a prisoner? The key word is “fake.” Now that the ruse has been made public (assuming the bad guys are thoroughly educated in such subjects), they could be more resistant to that technique. Assuming it ever worked in the first place.

    ml: “I said to friends it [24] was trying to condition American viewers to accept torture…”

    Far be it from me to vouch for the quality of 24 (awards notwithstanding), but its treatment of torture is more complex than the sheer abundance of cruelty might suggest. From the start, Jack Bauer has been portrayed as a man whose soul has been darkened by the things he’s done. It has ruined his career and damaged his personal relationships (except when the writers need characters to love him again). The show has portrayed innocent people being tortured, which doesn’t reflect well on the thumbscrews & branding irons industry.

    One of the most egregious examples was last season’s premiere, when Jack questioned a gravely wounded bad guy, who was 100% cooperative after Jack promised to get him medical attention. Jack promptly administered a dose of lead to the guy’s cranium. I mean, what a bastard!

  • “But what the American people need to know is we’ve got a program in place that is able to get intelligence from these people. And we’ve used it to stop attacks.” — Bu..$h… via CB

    Unfortunately… we may “need to know” this, but *we know no such thing*.

    As far as anyone who’s followed the sordid story “knows”, we have cast a wide net acting on “information” (vide the reliability of such all the way from Greek “ostracism”, through Napoleon’s network of “concierges”, through Hitler and through Stalin and his ideo-spawn). We’re holding those people, without any legal review, because we cannot afford to do anything else.

    If we allow them to be tried in the open… We are opening ourselves to all sorts of charges of “cruel and unusual” methods of interrogation. If we let them go without a trial.. After 5 yrs of being held for no-rhyme-or-reason and “interrogated” accordingly, what are the chances that an erst-while shepherd-boy has not *turned* into a vicious jihadist? So it’s damned if you do and damned if you don’t, unless we bomb Gitmo and Abu Ghraib and scores of other holding pens into oblivion. There just isn’t a good option left.
    ——————————–

    “Jack Bauer has been portrayed as a man whose soul has been darkened by the things he’s done. It has ruined his career and damaged his personal relationships” — Grumpy, @#10

    I don’t even know what “24” is but that sentence rang all sorts of old, old bells… 🙂

    One of the *major* works of Polish lit to emerge after WWII was Jerzy Andrzejewski’s “Popiol i diament” (Ashes and Diamond). It had been made into a film (in early 50ties?) which, I think, is available in the US. But the film “distilled out” one of the (minor) characters in the novel — a guy much like your description of Jack Bauer. Someone who had been a kapo in a camp and who survived the experience in body only. Psychologically, he was dead — suffering from nightmares, alienating all his family, etc, etc.

    I loved the whole novel but this particular “penitent SOB” really stuck in my mind so, when it came to writing the final, get-out-of-high-school essay and one of the subjects (there were 3; choose one. 4 hrs to write) was WWII in Polish lit, I pulled him in (along the little Jewish boy in Borowski’s “This Way to the Gas, Ladies and Gentlemen”, who says he doesn’t want to be Jewish anymore, and some other “lesser” chips of egg shell bits that fell around when that particular omelet was cooked). I still remember — almost 40 yrs later — that I started the essay with “when we think of the war, we think of big numbers — soldiers, the dead, the wounded, the widowed and orphaned, on both sides. We do not think of ordinary individuals and the impact the war had on each one of them. I think it is wrong”

    I then waited for the ax to fall — Marxist ideology did not leave much breathing room to *individuals* (leastways, not to ordinary ones. Marx, Lenin, Stalin… were a different matter altogether ) . Much to my surprise, I got an A (equivalent) from all 3 of my committee readers, even though all of them had been “good party members”. It was another reinforcement of an odd idea I was then beginning to develop — that, even within an authoritarian system, a cetain amount of dissent was allowable (if only to show to others, as proof of democracy), as long as one approached the subject cautiously.

  • Ahem. Uhm. Isn’t Billo the guy that said if we went into Iraq, and didn’t find any WMD, that he would never trust this administration again?

  • “If Bush can’t name a single Democrat who is “opposed [to] questioning people we’ve picked up on the battlefield”, ask him why he lied about what Democrats really advocate.” – RacerX

    Remember what Tony Snow revealed? Boy George II asks his staff to tell him what the “opposing views” are. Thus, when BG2 asks what the opposing view is on the questioning of prisoners, his staff tells him that the (pussy-wimp) Democrats don’t think we should be “questioning people we picked up on the battlefield”.

    In short, they are lying to him and he is lying to us. That’s were all the strawmen come from.

    Except the one about the Arabs not being capable of democracy. That comes from other Republicans. BG2 just makes it sound like he means Democrats when he says “Some people don’t think people in the Middle East are able to have Democracy”.

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