Immigration and the nation’s ‘race problem’

July 10, 2006

As part of my never-ending drive to understand why, exactly, the [tag]right[/tag] is apoplectic about [tag]immigration[/tag], reader NeilS alerted me to an item from National Review’s John [tag]Derbyshire[/tag] that sheds some light on the subject.

Derbyshire points to a series of “possible downsides to mass immigration” that might resonate with the public. One stood out: “potential [tag]race[/tag] [tag]problem[/tag]s.”

The U.S.A. was born with two race problems: the African Americans and the Native Americans. We struggle with those problems still, and must continue to struggle. Would it be wise to import a new one? Mass immigration from (say) Indonesia or (say) Bangladesh would add a huge visibly identifiable minority to our nation. Given our past experience with huge visibly identifiable minorities, is that smart?

Note that this question is simply one of prudence, and is independent of any opinions you might have about race. (Unless you think that the U.S. currently does not have a race problem, in which case you should ignore this paragraph. If you believe the U.S. does currently have a race problem to any extent, then I am inviting you to honestly ask yourself the question: Would it be smart to add another one?

I want to understand the argument, but it’s not quite working for me. We shouldn’t let new “visibly-identifiable [tag]minorities[/tag]” immigrate to the country because racists might not like them? We should shape public policy in part to accommodate the prejudices of those who judge on the basis of skin color?

Someone’s going to have to explain this one to me.

Holy cow. I don’t think it can be explained, except that he’s saying “If only everyone in the world was white, then all would be fine.”

  • I’m thinking that when Derbyshire says “race problem” he means that the other races are problems.

  • Steve, thank you for highlighting this.

    I don’t know what to make of it. He seems to have little faith in the American people.

    Its kind of a ‘stop me before I hate again’ remark.

  • “Would it be smart to add another [race]?”

    Nice, he refers to human beings as nameless, faceless people only distinguishable by their skin color. John Derbyshire is a blatant racist and xenophobe. How disgusting.

  • Assuming the best of intentions (i.e. not taking the stance of Grunt and Dale above, although I’m not saying they’re necessarily wrong about Derb’s actual beliefs or intentions), the issue would be similar to saying that we’ve already got a health care crisis in this country as far as dealing with, say, diabetes, and would it be wise to allow the immigration of people who have a high incidence of diabetes. So fair enough in that regard, if the base assumption is correct.

    However, his base assumption is crap. Yes, the longest lasting, most historical, and deepest ingrained race problems in the United States are those between whites and blacks and American Indians. But by no means has there never been other race problems in the U.S., especially in connection with immigration. “No Irish need apply,” anti-Italian sentiment, general anti-Catholicism, and most egregiously the pogroms against Chinese immigrants were all fueled by fears of huge and poorly integrated immigrant populations that seemed to threaten the existing social orders.

    Today’s Latino immigration differs in a number of ways from those earlier populations, but the idea that it is in any way unique in terms of adding to the list of outstanding racial issues is devoid of any acknowledgement of the history of immigration and racism in this country.

  • That’s just the Derb employing his usual cold-blooded pragmatism. No hot emotions or squishy sentiment from him. He’s just telling it like it is! It’s not like he invented racism!

    I believe his wife is of Asian descent, perhaps even an immigrant herself. I wonder if he explained to her that Congress passed the Chinese Exclusion Act just to give the racists a break and their neighbors a little peace and quiet.

  • I think the root of the immigration problem is that cheap immigrant labor directly competes with traditional blue-collar jobs. This is of greatest concern in inland states, esp. the midwest and south. It doesn’t help that these areas also have a somewhat longstanding culture of xenophobia, which exacerbates the problem. If the problem were truly elevated crime and strains on social services you would see a bigger outcry from border states (beyond the few hundred militia-men). Additionaly, border states don’t generally react negatively to brown people in the first place. Being originally from New Mexico I know this first-hand. The problem, as it almost always is, is jobs and pocketbook pressures – and an easily identifiable scapegoat.

  • So that is the problem with immigration.
    Let’s just find a bunch of Anglos to work for nothing and expect nothing to immigrate and all our problems will be solved.
    What a fricken genius.

  • “The U.S.A. was born with two race problems: the African Americans and the Native Americans.” – John Derbyshire

    What a dumb smuck!

    The United States was born with two RACISM problems, the enslavement of Africans and the disposession of Native Americans by white colonists. Since then, racism against Chinese, Japanese and ethnicism against Irish, Italians and Poles has just demonstrated the white majority’s natural tendency to reject and oppress anyone seen as different to them. And all that doesn’t even mention the anti-Mexican sentiments of white Californians and Texans, guilt-ridden over ripping these states from the Mexico.

    The fact that John D. thinks conservatives will hate the next group of people to come to America is no grounds for an immigration policy. Hopefully, people will see them for the racist pig they are and give this whole argument the short shrift that it deserves.

  • I don’t know if you were responding to my post above – but that is not what I was arguing. My argument is that the hostility towards immigration (specifically immigrants from Latin America) is due to job competition and wage pressures. I didn’t speculate on a solution, although an alternative to your own might be greater job growth and wealth creation in Latin America.

  • What’s surprising about the post is the decision to discuss it using liberal language — presumably an attempt to draw liberals into having doubts about their position.

    The thing is, most of the right have always enjoyed saying that there IS no race problem in America. Just a few extremists who want to ruin it for everyone else. (Now isn’t that the same argument we’ve been playing out on religion and atheists recently on blogs? Except that most liberals (like Obama) are siding with the conservatives and agreeing that it’s just a few extremist atheists who want to ruin it…)

    In any case, to say that there is a race connection is, in fact, reasonable. Conservatives like a bogeyman to blame when things go wrong. They like to bully some group that’s weaker than themselves. Liberals, on the other hand, prefer to go up against Authority, which is stronger than themselves. So when poorer conservatives ask themselves why they aren’t more successful, they can feel a nice sense of release and accomplishment if they go out and bully some immigrants.

  • Let’s see if I can break this thing into a possible scenario….

    Conservatives will try to play this card in a couple of ways. First, they’ll present “mass immigration” to the middle class as a wholesale drain on economic resources. Millions of people who cannot read, write, or function in an English-speaking society will require huge sums of money for education, housing, health care, transportation, and jobs-training. All of these “benefits” will equate to substantial tax inceases, should those horrible tax-n-spend democrats come back into power in Washington.

    Then, they’ll play it to the poor/minority groups as a “camel-breaking straw.” Cheap, affordable housing, subsidized healthcare, and jobs that are currently available to those with high-school/GED diplomas will be sucked up by this new group. It would take some time to explain…but to put it rather bluntly, the uberschweinen in DC and elsewhere can play this card particular upon the thoughts and feelings—and wallets—or Hispanics, African Americans, Native Americans, and Asian Americans.

    Also—look for the Beltway Bozos to exploit this in such a way as to “suggest/hint” that this new flood of immigrants are somehow linked to militant Islam. At least that’s what I’m sensing when their specifics are “Indonesia” and “Bengladesh.”

    These swine must, for the sake of the nation, be driven from power. Personally, I’d like to drive them into the sea….

  • As far as I can tell, Derbyshire seems to see the “problem” is that African Americans and Native Americans live among us but have never “assimilated” by knowing their place and adopting the white majority’s customs and lifestyle.

    Of course, you can also define the “race problem” as a struggle for basic human decency and an extension of basic rights and freedoms given to white people.

    So in Derbyshire’s mind, the problem is Mexicans (or Central Americans) come here for low-wage jobs, but one day may object to being seen only as cheap labor with no rights and become “uppity.” [snark]”Why some day they may come out of the packing plants and restaurant kitchens and decide they want better pay and to move into our neighborhoods and attend our schools. Next, they’ll want to marry our daughters![/snark]

    I could see why that’s such a problem for an unapologetic bigot.

  • Large scale immigration does cause problems. Big problems. But I think the reactions to the economic impact of immigrants is more of a symptom of rascism than the cause of racism. You don’t become a rascist because an immigrant took a job you wanted. That’s just a trigger.

    Let’s remember that the first two “race problems” he mentions are not immigration problems. The Indians were already here and the slaves sure has hell didn’t want to immigrate.

  • Did anyone catch the study [.pdf] that suggested that of 4.8 Million job growth over the last five years 4.1 Million of it has been filled by immigrants? Could you imagine what would happen to Boy George II’s economic ‘success’ if the Mexicans WEREN’T pouring over the border?

  • “The United States was born with two RACISM problems, the enslavement of Africans and the disposession of Native Americans by white colonists. Since then, racism against Chinese, Japanese and ethnicism against Irish, Italians and Poles has just demonstrated the white majority’s natural tendency to reject and oppress anyone seen as different to them. And all that doesn’t even mention the anti-Mexican sentiments of white Californians and Texans, guilt-ridden over ripping these states from the Mexico.” (Lance)

    Exactly right – apart from the guilt-ridden part (Don’t see much evidence of guilty consciences at work…)

    As if the “race problem” lay with Native Americans and African slaves! Sheesh, who does Derbyshire imagined was causing those particular problems?

    And arguably the United States had, and continues to have, only one major racism problem, coming from white chauvinists unwilling to relinquish a position of unmerited ethnic privilege and constantly fearful of majority status.

  • This is also a frequent argument against affirmative action: it makes some people think blacks are inferior to whites because they need “special rights” to compete, and therefore it’s bad. It requires the same assumption that we should let racists dictate our policy rather than point out why they’re wrong.

  • I know it adds nothing to the discussion to simply say that “the Derb” is a creep, but he is.

  • Wow. What a creep.

    As pointed out above, despite many, many chances, the US has never successfully “imported” a “race problem”. And of the two examples he claims, one was “imported” forcibly, the other not at all.

    So what’s his point? Let’s avoid other races in case we try to enslave and/or exterminate them? Doesn’t give one much confidence in his judgement, I’d say.

  • “Exactly right – apart from the guilt-ridden part (Don’t see much evidence of guilty consciences at work…)” – Alex Higgins

    I suppose I mean that White Californians (have you ever sat next to one on a Metro Train, the first thing out of their mouths is the ‘Mexican Problem’) and Texans subconsciously get upset by Mexicans because they know they are living on stolen lands.

  • As pointed out above, despite many, many chances, the US has never successfully “imported” a “race problem”. -JT

    Except the Irish.

    Ohhhhh, that was bad………………
    And coming from a proud descendant of Erin

  • TWO PROBLEMS?

    Lets see….what happened to those “problems”?

    Native Americans: Genocide
    African Americans: Made Slaves

    I would say we only have one problem:

    bigoted, racist whites. I would say John Derbyshire fits into that category.

  • “Given our past experience with huge visibly identifiable minorities, is that smart?”– The Derb

    Hmm.
    Attny. Gen. Alberto Gonzalez is indeed visibly identifiable. But I wouldn’t call him “huge” in any sense of the word. And Condeleeza Rice is about average-sized. Colin Powell is pretty large, I guess. Thurgood Marshall did get really big in his twilight years, but the robe had a slimming effect.

  • Attny. Gen. Alberto Gonzalez is indeed visibly identifiable. But I wouldn’t call him “huge” in any sense of the word. And Condeleeza Rice is about average-sized. Colin Powell is pretty large, I guess. Thurgood Marshall did get really big in his twilight years, but the robe had a slimming effect.

    Comment by Grunt

    Yeah, but not all of them contributed much to our *problems* (racial or otherwise). I’ll grant you Gonzalez (and will throw in Clarence Thomas. Gratis; you’re welcome; don’t mention it). Condi and Powell… Well, OK. But don’t you dare *touch* Marshall.

  • I’m new here, but this piece has brought back some memories of my schooling in (apartheid) South Africa.

    History text-books were government-approved, pro-National Party propaganda tracts, and there was one paragraph I won’t ever forget. It sought to explain the background to the (2 million+) Indian population that lives in South Africa, and though I paraphrase, I shit you not this is pretty close to the original:

    In the 1850s, Indian labourers were brought to Natal [region of SA] to work in the sugar industry. By the 1880s, there were a significant number number of Indians in the country. By the 1900s, they had become a political problem.

    Now I am not saying that this Derbyshire guy is advocating apartheid or white supremacist views or anything, but he sure as heck sounds a lot like people who once did. The old apartheid dinosaurs spoke and acted out of a belief that integration would exarcerbate racial tensions, yet had no sense that they were (a) partly to blame for the problems, and (b) were perpetuating policies that had caused the problems in the first place.

    I guess these dinosaurs aren’t yet extinct.

  • One more point—if, as Lance points out, the job-growth for non-immigrants is only 700,000 over the course of BushReich, I’m wondering when one of the talking heads at FauxNews will realize that the non-immigrant population of the US has grown—in that same period, of course—by a whole lot more than 700,000? That, to me, should expose BushReich as producing “negative job growth….”

  • There was massive immigration from Europe in the first part of the 20th century. This resulted in a backlash from many US citizens. Most people are familar with the caricatures of the Irish, the Italians and the Poles. My wife’s grandparents were Italians working the coal mines of West Virginia.

    After a few decades immigrants assimilated into American society. Perhaps the unifying effect of WWII helped. I don’t really know. I think the same will happen with most Latino immigrants.

    This is what concerns me about a guest worker program. On its face it makes sense, but part of being in America is knkowing that you are a part of something bigger: a collection of immigrants. I don’t want us to become a segregated society in the way that some european countries seem to have become. They appear to have foreign guest workers that never assimilate into the society.

  • “After a few decades immigrants assimilated into American society. Perhaps the unifying effect of WWII helped. I don’t really know. I think the same will happen with most Latino immigrants.” – NeilS

    Actually, that is not true…

    …Latino immigrants are assimilating about a GENERATION SOONER than other immigrant waves, according to recent studies.

    And considering that my very nice ($375K) second house was flanked by two nicer ($400K) houses owned by the same family of Latino immigrants, I’d say there was antedotal evidence of that too.

  • I’m surprised that he didn’t include the Jews in what he somehow believes was the “race problems” as we started with here in the USA. Never mind that we bought the Africans as slaves and when they were freed were still not given the same rights that whites enjoyed some would say not even to this very day. As for the Indians HUH? That is just very strange they were here first this was there land before it was stolen from them!
    I get the feeling this person is speaking to Evangelicals they have shown their intolerance to the Jews just this past week in Delaware, when running a family out of town for being Jewish! The nerve of those Jews not wanting to put a false God before them in a public school! Of course Evangelicals are not the only ones that have a difficult time with acceptance of someone that is different which is strange sense Jesus did say “{22:21} Thou shalt neither vex a stranger, nor oppress him: for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt. Page 43 Exodus”.
    Of course we here in the USA have a long history of intolerance, the Irish were singled out as well as the Italians were persecuted when there was a “mass immigration” of both cultures in to the USA. So this person must be pretty pissed about the Central/South Americans that have come to call this country home sense most are blown skinned and some EVEN LOOK BLACK that must really get this person mad.
    I have met with one of these people if you want to classify non-thinkers as people and it is really quite disgusting to hear them talk about the “wet back/beaner problem”, and she is a Jew with a Lesbian mother. Which is kind of funny in a twisted kinda way.

  • Everybody says there is this RACE problem. Everybody says this RACE problem will be solved when the third world pours into EVERY white country and ONLY into white countries.

    The Netherlands and Belgium are more crowded than Japan or Taiwan, but nobody says Japan or Taiwan will solve this RACE problem by bringing in millions of third worlders and quote assimilating unquote with them.

    Everybody says the final solution to this RACE problem is for EVERY white country and ONLY white countries to “assimilate,” i.e., intermarry, with all those non-whites.

    What if I said there was this RACE problem and this RACE problem would be solved only if hundreds of millions of non-blacks were brought into EVERY black country and ONLY into black countries?

    How long would it take anyone to realize I’m not talking about a RACE problem. I am talking about the final solution to the BLACK problem?

    And how long would it take any sane black man to notice this and what kind of psycho black man wouldn’t object to this?

    But if I tell that obvious truth about the ongoing program of genocide against my race, the white race, Liberals and respectable conservatives agree that I am a naziwhowantstokillsixmillionjews.

    They say they are anti-racist. What they are is anti-white.

    Anti-racist is a code word for anti-white.

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