Is it independents’ day?

When one considers all the recent polling in Iowa and New Hampshire, there’s at least one unmistakable trend: a gap in the support from independents. Barack Obama enjoys solid support among Dems, but is in position to possibly win early contests thanks to support from independents. For Hillary Clinton and John Edwards, it’s the other way around.

With that in mind, Matt Yglesias raises an important point, which I hope he won’t mind if I quote in full.

John Judis and Ruy Teixeira take a look at the demographic and ideological characteristics of self-described independents and their potential role in the presidential election. It’s clear that the post-partisan rhetoric from Barack Obama that’s annoyed a lot of bloggers has tremendous appeal to this segment of the electorate. And though I, too, find it annoying I think you have to agree that if he really does manage to use this kind of rhetoric to mobilize an unprecedented number of independents to go caucus for the first time on behalf of a candidate who was right about Iraq from the beginning, backs ambitious new programs on climate change and media reform, big new regulations on health insurance companies and new subsidies to people who have trouble paying for insurance, etc., etc., etc. that that’ll be a pretty impressive achievement.

It’s always worth recalling that George W. Bush talked the talk about repudiating the harshness of Newt Gingrich and Tom DeLay. That duped the brain-dead press and they, in turn, helped dupe a substantial element of the public. But the policy agenda from Bush was always very right-wing, just as Obama’s platform is quite progressive.

This touches on what I think is one of the Obama campaign’s more compelling selling points — he’s giving Dems the policy proposals they want (universal healthcare plan, excellent energy policy, ending the war in Iraq, cancellation of Bush tax cuts for the very wealthy, net neutrality, etc.) and giving independents the tone they want (“agree without being disagreeable,” “bring people together,” “working with those we don’t agree with”).

For all the palpable frustration and exasperation, Obama may very well be in the process of pulling off a pretty neat trick: selling a very liberal agenda to a large group of people who aren’t even close to liberal.

Allow me to over simplify things to an almost comical degree. Obama, or any Democrat for that matter, has a choice as to how best to pitch progressive ideas as a presidential candidate:

Choice A: Republicans have proven themselves to be reckless, incompetent, and incapable of governing. They seek to divide, bankrupt, and undercut America, while trashing our institutions and ignoring the rule of law. The way to get the nation back on track is to elect a Democratic president with a progressive policy agenda. If Republicans balk, we’ll ram it down their throats, to the benefit of people nationwide.

Choice B: Partisan politics has gotten out of hand, and there’s simply no need to keep having the same ideological fights over and over again. It’s time for a Democratic style of politics that brings in independents and reasonable Republicans who are willing to work with us to make a difference on the issues that really matter, such as universal healthcare, ending the war in Iraq, combating global warming, fiscal sanity, making college more affordable….

The funny thing is, Dems who embrace Choice A and Dems who embrace Choice B can agree with one another, wholeheartedly, on matters of substance. On policy, they want the exact same things, and have practically the same ideas as to how to address the issues. The difference, of course, is style and tone. Choice A is perceived as “partisan” — it rallies Dems, and drives independents away. Choice B is perceived as “bipartisan” — it annoys Dems, and brings independents in (not to mention the media establishment, which eats this stuff up).

In the current race for the Democratic nomination, Obama seems to be taking a risk — use bipartisan rhetoric to achieve partisan ends. His agenda isn’t moderate; his tone is moderate. But as Mark Schmidt recently noted, this appears to be a means to an end.

Of course, there are multiple moving parts here. Using Choice B offers the opportunity to win a general election with a big mandate. It also runs the risk of undercutting party building, watering down the brand, and creating unrealistic expectations about what’s possible.

Food for thought.

And, I would add, Choice B is the best way to move past the Bush-era because it is the polar opposite of the Karl Rove strategy. Obama doesn’t want to win just by firing up the 47% of the country that already agrees with him; he is actually making an effort to reach out and persuade people.

  • Yes, but is this a tactic/style that has coattails? Is it one that will bring into office with Obama a sufficient number of like-minded legislators so that we are no longer forced to suffer through legislative capitulation-through-filibuster-attrition?

  • “Barack Obama that’s annoyed a lot of bloggers has tremendous appeal to this segment of the electorate.”

    Hence my “Note to Netroots, you are not the only voters out there” comment yesterday.

  • I’ve been saying this over and over for about 6 months now, whenever someone has tried to claim Obama is some sort of “mealy mouthed Lieberman wannabe” or whatever, or that his pitch is hurting Dem causes.

    Ummm…no…he’s showing progressives just how to get the majority of the country to support their policies. And some are rewarding him for succeeding at that by blasting him repeatedly for “invoking Republican talking points!!!”

    Sad, really.

  • Only one problem with Choice B.

    There are no moderate or reasonable Republicans.

    If there were, we’d be on our way out of Iraq, surge or no surge.

    CB, you ask us to believe in faries and reasonable Republicans, claiming there is a never-never land of bipartisanship we all can reach just by wishing ourselves there. I thought that land might have existed in 2000, when Boy George II claimed he had been there in Texas and could go there in D.C.. But sadly, that was a lie.

    If Obama is convincing independents that it exists this time, I say more fools them for believing him.

  • Ummm…no…he’s showing progressives just how to get the majority of the country to support their policies. And some are rewarding him for succeeding at that by blasting him repeatedly for “invoking Republican talking points!!!”

    Hear, hear. Reading comments by Clinton supporters in particular–not here, but in many other places on the internet–one gets the distinct impression that they, like some clique of mirror-image Bushies, would prefer to win with 50.0000001 percent of the vote.

    Those of us who are confirmed progressives but feel no attachment to the Democratic Party beyond its (often tepid) defense function heartily disagree, and that is why we’ve embraced Obama.

  • What’s annoying the netroots is that Barack hasn’t been very clear about what his vision of post-partisanship is. If it is moving away from the dickishness that Republicans have personified since the mid-90’s, I’m all for it. But if it’s for the Harry Reid/ Nancy Pelosi caving-in on principles to give the impression we can all get along than it’s bullsh*t. Barack would win over more of his fellow Dems if he clarified his principles on this topic.

  • I’m predicting a surprise in Iowa tonight. The surprise will be that there will no surprise. Hillary wins. Romney wins. Money talks and cowshit walks.

  • Provocative post.
    What you are itching at is called “statesmanship.”
    It was true governance in a democracy has always been about.
    Convincing people to do the right thing…

    [Sub rosa cachinnation: Is it official yet? is she third in Iowa? Let me know. I don’t want to scare the cats off the fence with another premature untoward guffaw until I know for sure.]

  • Lance:

    I think you’re misconstruing who Steve is talking about…which are moderate Republican voters.

    If you get your base’s vote, and clean up in Independents, and draw moderate Republicans (and Obama has been doing just that in Iowa), then you’re gonna win the election big time, like 55-58% of the vote big time, which puts you in a position of strength in terms of negotiation. How many GOPers in blue or purple states will want to go against a President with that type of support? Be seen as one of the people obstructing the agenda of the President with the most popular mandate since Reagan (or maybe even further back than that)?

    If you have, say, 56 Dems in the Senate, you only need to peel off 4 Republicans worried about re-election if Obama goes and campaigns for their rival to get your bill passed. And guess what? It’s that much easier when your use of their language and willingness to take their concerns seriously gives them political cover to defect from their party’s ranks.

    The mistake some on the left are making is thinking that what is a good strategy as a minority party (strict partisanship) will be great as a majority party, and expecting the GOP to act identically as a weakened, shrinking party that was tearing itself to pieces in the Pres primary and has lost ground in 2 straight congressional elections…as they acted when they were on the heels of winning the Presidency and then control of both Houses.

    Votes along party lines are great for keeping things from getting done. As the GOP has demonstrated, however, is that to actually get anything passed, you have to peel away a few votes from the opposition party. They’ve managed to scare Dems in red states of national security.

    Dems are going to need to do the same when they have the Presidency and both Houses of Congress. And the best position to be in there would be with a President who has a huge popular mandate not just to pass progressive policies, but to do so with cooperation from the GOP, a mandate supported in part by the GOP base itself.

    That’s what Obama is offering. You can debate whether he can pull it off, whether he can do in the nation writ large what he’s doing in Iowa right now, but that is what he’s offering, and it needs to be understood and evaluated on its own terms if you want to have a real discussion about whether or not he’d be effective at getting his positions pushed through the Congress

  • If it is moving away from the dickishness that Republicans have personified since the mid-90’s, I’m all for it. But if it’s for the Harry Reid/ Nancy Pelosi caving-in on principles to give the impression we can all get along than it’s bullsh*t. Barack would win over more of his fellow Dems if he clarified his principles on this topic.

    Peterado–with respect, I think Obama did this in his “closer” speech late last week. “Hope” isn’t a vague and naive wish that differences go away–it’s a faith, forged in certainty, that solutions can be found.

    This whole debate over what Obama would do and what he means by his words is rooted in whether or not one believes that he’s tough. I do. Certainly, I might be wrong–and I certainly don’t want him to turn into a presidential version of the enabling Democratic Congress. But I think his record in Illinois and, on at least a couple issues, the U.S. Senate shows that this guy has a serious competitive streak and is not above throwing an elbow or two.

    There’s a lot of room between optimistic and naive. I think Obama is the first–and I do think he’s much more inclined at least to listen to Republican/conservative perspectives than, say, Edwards, or the militant partisan Democrats on sites like Kos. But that’s a far cry from accommodationist, like the quisling douchebag Holy Joe, or spineless as Reid has proven to be.

  • i couldn’t agree more with petorado. do i think one can go too far the other way? sure – Edwards would have a hard time governing on the rhetoric he is using right now. but post-partisanship can only work if (a) you have such large majorities that you have the pure luxury of being magnanimous, or (b) the other side is willing to go somewhere post-partisan with you.

    the idea of “moving beyond” right now reminds me of my reaction to most Broder articles/WaPo op eds about judicial confirmations, saying “sure both parties are guilty, but Dems should end the bitter partisanship and be the bigger people, it has to end sometime and sooner is better.” To which my reaction is “bite me.” That only allows the crooks to get away with stackingthe deck for a generation to come. That actually rewards their corruptness and ensures they will do more of it at the next opportunity.

    There has to be some amount of leveling of the landscape before a truce can be called, otherwise it is not so much a truce as a surrender that lets the Rethugs keep all of their ill-gotten gains. If they want to speed up post-partisanship, they can voluntarily relinquish some of those gains anytime they want – they can give Dems some of the long-vacant judgeships that were blocked under Clinton, they can let Libby rot in jail instead of commuting him, they can turn over records to Waxman and Leahy. But until then, don’t even start to talk post-partisan with me because there is nothing remotely sincere about it.

    In the immortal words of the Dixie Chicks, i’m not ready to make nice.
    And if Obama stakes too much of his image and reputation on making nice, he is a doormat waiting to happen.

  • Personally, I’m sentimentally for Choice A, grind the damn goopers’ faces into the dirt. But if Obama can pull off Choice B, and win progressive victories through a kind of soft power approach, then my hat’s off to him.

    One fly in the Choice B ointment is that the other side isn’t going to let a kinder gentler Obama administration chalk up victories without a fight. They will use every underhanded trick and weapon they can think of to undermine him, from day one on. He’d better be ready.

  • Michael (Re #12)

    If you are elected President it doesn’t matter if you had 2% of the Republican vote or 10% of the Republican vote.

    What matters is that there aren’t enough Susan Collins’s and Chuck Hagel’s in the Senate to actually achieve real compromise. The sort that isn’t basically the Democrats bending over and taking it with a smile.

    So what Barack Obama is offering independents (according to CB/Steve) is an illusion. Either we get a Presidential Candidate with coattails who gets us Eleven more REAL Democrats in the Senate, or we can expect to play hardball. Obama may be able to scare up more votes than Hillary (a theory I in no way accept) once in November of 2008, but that doesn’t mean he’s going to be able to push through a Progressive agenda in 2009.

    I may be wrong about Hillary’s ability, and she is not my first choice as a candidate, but I buy her theory of experience and ability over Barack’s theory of sweetness and light.

  • @7: There are no moderate or reasonable Republicans.

    Who said it’s all about capturing center-right votes?

    There are plenty of leftist independents out there, and we are not all Naderites or Greens, either. He’s got progressive bona fides in my book, whether or not he talks about religion and getting along and other cuddly things on the stump.

    @8:Those of us who are confirmed progressives but feel no attachment to the Democratic Party beyond its (often tepid) defense function heartily disagree, and that is why we’ve embraced Obama.

    Amen. If Hillary manages to win the nomination, my disgust with the powers-that-be in the Democratic Party will continue unabated. I suspect there are many other progressive independents who feel the same way.

    That said, I fully support Obama, and not just because he represents the great state of Illinois.

    (I don’t mind Edwards, either, FWIW.)

  • You don’t get to be president of the Harvard Law Review by being stupid.

    I think if anyone needs to explain their inability to act like Real Democrats, it’s the people who went along with the Republicans on the AUMF. That one decision set us up for so many other problems that it must remain the cornerstone for an argument for or against someone’s partisan credibility. If being strongly partisan is a virtue, then standing against a popular but disastrous war position (at a time when 70% of the country were buying the Iraq/9-11 BS) is a profile in courage.

    I still like Edwards, but his vote on the AUMF would be used against him in the general, as it should. Obama doesn’t have to make excuses for his position on the issue, he can highlight it, and IMO that will count for a lot.

    Choice A is perceived as “partisan” — it rallies Dems, and drives independents away. Choice B is perceived as “bipartisan” — it annoys Dems, and brings independents in (not to mention the media establishment, which eats this stuff up).

    Obama has been doing both A and B. Right now he’s taking a beating for doing B, but in October of 2002, when Clinton and Edwards were busy sucking up to The Lobby, Obama was doing A, speaking truth to power at an anti-war rally in Chicago:

    “…Saddam poses no imminent and direct threat to the United States, or to his neighbors, that the Iraqi economy is in shambles, that the Iraqi military a fraction of its former strength, and that in concert with the international community he can be contained until, in the way of all petty dictators, he falls away into the dustbin of history.

    I know that even a successful war against Iraq will require a US occupation of undetermined length, at undetermined cost, with undetermined consequences. I know that an invasion of Iraq without a clear rationale and without strong international support will only fan the flames of the Middle East, and encourage the worst, rather than best, impulses of the Arab world, and strengthen the recruitment arm of al-Qaeda.

    I am not opposed to all wars. I’m opposed to dumb wars.

    So for those of us who seek a more just and secure world for our children, let us send a clear message to the president today. You want a fight, President Bush? Let’s finish the fight with Bin Laden and al-Qaeda…”

    http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Barack_Obama's_Iraq_Speech

    One more thing about independents, IMO the degree to which independents and even conservatives long for a black man to establish a positive role model on the national stage will make for a large base of moderate support to add to the already strong Democratic energy. Sure there will be racists and idiots who will think he’s a muslim, but how many of those people will we get if Obama is not the nominee? probably not very many.

  • As if any poster who adopts as his handle the greatest record of the 1990s could be wrong–I’m with you all the way here, including the “don’t mind” characterization of Edwards. I think he’s a good man and a good progressive, I just don’t think he’s particularly likely to be a successful president.

  • Either we get a Presidential Candidate with coattails who gets us Eleven more REAL Democrats in the Senate, or we can expect to play hardball. -Lance

    And Hillary has coattails? I don’t agree. I think this is where the electability issue really is. She can win the general, maybe, but she’s not bringing anyone into the fold. Everyone who has ever called themselves a Republican already hates her.

    Her presence on the ballot is the worst thing for down ballot candidates.

    States like Indiana, who elected some Dems in 2006, would be solidly back in the Red column in 2008 and 2010.

    …but I buy her theory of experience and ability… -Lance

    A lot of good her experience did when she held hands with Bush and marched us off to war. What good is experience without the wisdom borne of it?

    Money talks and cowshit walks. -Dale

    And here I thought manure was money. Sure smells that way, especially when Clinton and Romney are the money candidates.

  • There are no moderate or reasonable Republicans. — Lance

    Actually there are tons of them: they’re the disillusioned who have swollen the ranks of the independents.

  • Doubtful, I’m not sure Hillary has coattails either. That may be true. In which case I suggest the best bet is Edwards, who I feel has the best chance to pull in additional congressmen.

    Though really, the DNC should be able to do this stuff on their own. The Republican’ts are begging millionaires to run, the Democrats should be recruiting seasoned and popular politicians (we’re likely to run Mark Warner, the populare ex-Governor of Virginia, against Jim Gilmore, the unpopular ex-Governor, for John Warner’s seat. Ask libra to give you her take on that one).

    As for Hillary’s voting for the war, I’m not going to join you in blaming her, nor will I accept Obama’s claim that had he been in the Senate he’d have voted against it. I’m not going to blame her because for a time before the invasion I thought it was a good idea (for lots of good liberal reasons) too. I’m not going to buy Obama’s claim because I don’t see him being as liberal as Feingold or Kucinich now, so I don’t believe he’d have fought off the pressure to vote for the war back then.

    Okay, for everybody who’s quoted me, let me clarify:

    THERE AREN’T ENOUGH MODERATE OR REASONABLE REPUBLICANS IN THE UNITED STATES SENATE FOR OBAMA’S FANTASY OF BIPARTISANSHIP TO WORK.

    And Nautilator, if moderate Republican voters are disillusioned and now self-declared independents, then they are not any longer Republicans 😉

  • Choice B…runs the risk of undercutting party building, watering down the brand, and creating unrealistic expectations about what’s possible.

    All in all, this post hits the nail on the head.

    However, with reference to the quote above, I think the risk of undercutting party and brand is limited. In fact, I think the bigger risk is that Choice B will grow the progressive majority, impove the our party brand, in doing so, increase the realm of possibilities. That’s why my wife and I are looking forward to voting for Choice B (i.e. Senator Obama) when our turn comes around.

  • If I can chime in here, I think the question some of us have is, how much can we trust that the tone will not subsume the agenda? In other words, what makes us think that in using tone to win over independents and moderate Republicans, the progressive agenda doesn’t slowly slip ever closer to some squishy middle ground?

    Marshalling ordinary Americans who feel like they have been ignored and denied a seat at the table for too many years is part and parcel of advancing a progressive agenda. And if all it took was being nicer, we would have had more progress over the years than we’ve had.

    We have a lot to be angry about, and some of those things have more to do with defining what is right and rejecting what is wrong than it does with finding ways to “accommodate.”

  • ‘Nother datapoint on this: This a.m. the Beeb was doing a segment on Iowa and had an interview with an “independent”at an Obama rally who was strongly considering supporting him. Turned out “independent” was a bit of a misnomer: she’d been voting Republican up to now. Asked “Why Obama,” her only response was “Change.” I was pretty surprised given that I’d thought of him as coming across as a “progressive,” recent Krugman articles notwithstanding.

  • And Nautilator, if moderate Republican voters are disillusioned and now self-declared independents, then they are not any longer Republicans — Lance

    Come on now, they’re people who are willing to give the democrats a chance they might not get again, simply hammering them with “Bush is wrong” isn’t exactly a trust-building maneuver.

  • “what makes us think that in using tone to win over independents and moderate Republicans, the progressive agenda doesn’t slowly slip ever closer to some squishy middle ground”

    Anne, many of you seem to be making the premature assumption that a purely “progressive agenda/platform” will actually win the general election. Newsflash to you all: the “progressive agenda” hasn’t had much success in national elections over the last few decades!

    Perhaps Obama realizes that the middle ground is the platform that will be accepted by more voters to help secure the general election.

  • how much can we trust that the tone will not subsume the agenda? — Anne

    Compare the post-2006 tone with the post-2006 agenda, and be a little more optimistic on that front.

  • As for Hillary’s voting for the war, I’m not going to join you in blaming her… -Lance

    I do blame her, and Edwards, and everyone who voted for it. During the build-up to the Iraq war, I was certain beyond a shadow of a doubt it was a diversion meant to satisfy the bloolust of a nation in fear. Anyone in the Senate who believed Bush’s lies over the UN and helped commit one of the biggest blunders in the history of the country should be held accountable and I won’t vote for any of them ever.

    I’m not going to buy Obama’s claim because I don’t see him being as liberal as Feingold or Kucinich now, so I don’t believe he’d have fought off the pressure to vote for the war back then. -Lance

    On the other hand, as much as I am adamant about holding her accountable for votes she did cast, I won’t hold Obama accountable for votes he didn’t cast.

    Don’t you think it’s a bit disingenuous to absolve Hillary of a vote she cast wrongly while condemning Obama for a vote he couldn’t cast?

  • This whole discussion is reminding me of how I thought about Clinton in ’92. he made me uneasy; as a progressive, I wasn’t sure what he was going to do with his “third way” rhetoric. But I decided to believe and hope that he would be good. He was far less terrific than I was hoping, though. It always seemed he was ready to compromise too quickly. I’m fearful the same will be true of Obama. I want to believe he’s really a great progressive with a different tone, but I really don’t. He’s seems too concerned with appeasing the Liebermans of the Beltway and the evangelicals in the heartland. I just can’t believe this time, but I hope I’m wrong.

    Also, I don’t understand why Edwards’ rhetoric is perceived as so angry. He seems to be saying what most people know is true. Corporate powers are out of control, and they haved behaved with gross irresponsibility. It’s disturbing to me that anything critical of the corporate oligarchy is considered too extreme.

  • “It always seemed he (Clinton) was ready to compromise too quickly.”

    Yet Clinton was the only Dem that managed to get elected (2x) in the last quarter decade. Notice a trend, all you hard line Progressives???

  • I agree with Lance. Obama has yet to prove that he can talk the talk and walk the walk. The Great Conciliator is just two breathes away from becoming the Great Capitulator. Give me a candidate who will stand his/her ground during the campaign and once elected!

  • Hil from day one embraced mealy mouthed bipartisanship but didn’t offer the progressive agenda Obama did. She thought she could spew the happy talk and like her husband and win people over.

    Obama has mnore or less whispered the issues to us while giving happy talk over a bullhorn.
    I’m fine with that. Hil may have been whispering her agenda to other people I’m not aware of. I was listening real hard, but nary a peep. She mistakenly promised a $9.50 minimum wage once and that was nice as an appetizer, but it doesn’t compete.

    3rd place.
    Thank you Iowa. New Hampshire. Your turn. Finish the job, please.
    You can borrow my shovel if you need it.

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