Is Nevada really a ‘shared victory’?

When it comes to the nominating process, nothing is ever straightforward. At first blush, yesterday’s results of the Democratic caucus in Nevada weren’t complicated at all — Hillary Clinton enjoyed a modest victory over Barack Obama. She won, he lost, and then they’re off to South Carolina. No muss, no fuss.

But then there’s the delegate question to consider. Here was the news, as of late afternoon yesterday:

In a just completed conference call with Obama campaign manager David Plouffe and director of delegate selection Jeff Berman argued that the Illinois Senator will leave Nevada today with 13 pledged delegates to 12 for Clinton thanks the weighting of northern and rural areas in the state.

An Associated Press official on the call suggested that Obama’s campaign may well be right and the organization was looking seriously at its own math.

While the process of delegate apportionment is extremely complicated, it boils down to this: in the places that Clinton won, there were an even number of delegates that were split between she and Obama. In the places Obama won, there were an odd number of delegates, meaning that he often took two delegates to one for Clinton.

“On one very important measure, we had a slight lead,” said Plouffe.

And sure enough, by 7 pm eastern, both AP and NBC changed their delegate counts to reflect 13 for Obama and 12 for Clinton. The Obama campaign immediately started referring to the Nevada results as a “shared victory.”

Could Clinton have “won” the state while “losing” the delegates? Based on the bizarre rules, it’s possible … but complicated. The truth is, neither Clinton nor Obama won any Nevada delegates yesterday.

Last night, apparently hoping to clarify matters, the Nevada Democratic Party issued a statement. Helping to highlight just how byzantine this process really is, the statement turned out to be wrong. So, the party issued a corrected one:

Just like in Iowa, what were awarded today were delegates to the county convention, of which Sen. Clinton won the majority. No national convention delegates were awarded. That said, if the delegate preferences remain unchanged between now and April 2008, the calculations of national convention delegates being circulated by The Associated Press are correct. We look forward to our county and state conventions, where we will choose the delegates for the nominee that Nevadans support.

Ben Smith helps translate:

First note: There are two kind of delegates. The more important kind, nationally speaking, are the latter, of which Obama — according to a revised AP count — is expected to emerge with 13 to Clinton’s 12.

That’s the technical grounds on which Obama claimed a kind of victory. The Clinton campaign’s and the Nevada party’s objections to this earlier this evening were yet more technical, but also accurate: The national delegates haven’t yet been formally awarded.

“The Obama campaign is wrong. Delegates for the national convention will not be determined until April 19,” said Clinton spokesman Howard Wolfson.

But the only plausible scenario in which the awarding of delegates chances is one in which one of the candidates drops out of the race and endorses the other. In which case it’ll be academic. So in the only likely scenario that matters, Obama will wind up with one more delegate out of Nevada, an all-but-meaningless number in any case.

Just for good measure, last night, the Obama campaign was needling the Clinton camp by circulating a recent quote from Howard Wolfson, who said, “This is a race for delegates…It is not a battle for individual states. As David knows, we are well past the time when any state will have a disproportionate influence on the nominating process.”

For more on the delegate count, Chris Hayes and Ari Melber, who help make sense of what is obviously a very silly process.

As no delegates have been awarded, the closest we have to an announcement of a winner is the statement from the Nevada Democratic Party that “if the delegate preferences remain unchanged between now and April 2008, the calculations of national convention delegates being circulated by The Associated Press are correct.”

While certainly not as clear cut a victory as if he had won a majority of the vote, this does make it a narrow victory for Obama, especially if we go by Clinton’s own criteria. Right or wrong, American elections are not about who gets the most votes. In a caucus such as this winning comes down to who wins in more areas of the state, while in the national election winning comes down to who picks up the most electoral votes by winning the most states.

So far Obama is remaining undefeated in the state delegate battles, winning in Iowa and Nevada and tying in Nevada. Of course if we look at the delegate battle Clinton did start out with the lead in terms of super delegates, but those are free to change their minds should Obama make the case to them that he is the Democrat with the best chance to win. The stronger McCain looks as the Republican nominee, the more it looks like the Democrats must go to a candidate who appeals to independents to win.

  • Think how hypocritical it is for us to preach Democracy elsewhere in the world while we can’t even agree who won in Nevada. The country needs to clean out the accumulated electoral garbage stretching back into colonial times. We need to respect the democratic axiom: the one who gets 50%% of the vote plus one, wins. We need to translate that axiom into our election machinery, all of it including our Senate voting machinery.

  • Of course in Gore’s case there’s the question of who really won the electoral vote also, considering that a full recount in Florida, or a review of the over count, would have changed the result.

    (The over count is cases of people who did things like both check off Gore’s name and write in Gore. These votes were excluded due to voting twice, but if counted as Gore votes could have given him the state.)

  • My comment above should say, “So far Obama is remaining undefeated in the state delegate battles, winning in Iowa and Nevada and tying in New Hampshire.”

  • Takeaway: Get rid of this stupid system and do straight voting for delegates.

    This is left-overs from Big Machine and Plantation politics. We got rid of a lot of the corruption of the former and lost the racists from the latter, so why keep the vestigial pieces?

    Is NV really a shared victory? No, a shared loss for a party that has popular support, great candidates, and still looks muddled. No wonder they can’t convert conservatives.

  • As long as we are talking about confusing results, I would like someone to explain an exit/entrance poll results that is constantly cited. We are told that Clinton won overwhelmingly with Hispanics over Obama; that Obama won overwhelmingly about African-Americans over Clinton and that Clinton won significantly with women. My question is: Aren’t there men and women Hispanics and African-Americans? Do the polsters just forget about your gender once they have classed you as Hispanic or African-American? Or do they ignore ethnicity once they specifiy your gender? Does race trump gender or vice versa? Or is it all a bunch of crap?

    Anybody an expert on polling methodology out there?

  • Yes—Nevada “is” a shared victory.

    Hillary won on the number of votes, and Obama appears to be taking a slim majority of delegates.

    But—and this is the thing that no one seems to be noticing—it is the citizens of Nevada who won the day.

    They participated in the process.

    The courts threw out a lawsuit that, for all intents and purposes, represented an attempt at voter suppression.

    Record voter turnout occurred.

    And of all things, they did it on a Saturday. I don’t know a lot of people who are anxious to give up their weekends, but the people of Nevada did it.

  • CB, here’s a challenge. Can you reanalyze Bill Clinton’s claim that one casino vote equals five other votes. The results reported here seem to suggest the opposite. Also are actual vote counts reported anywhere? It would be nice to know who actually got the most people supporting each candidate. Same with Iowa. Thanks.

  • When Obama finished second in the popular vote in New Hampshire, he won nine delegates – the same as Hillary. Now we learn that in Nevada he got one more delegate than Hillary in spite of a second-place finish. If Hillary keeps beating Obama like this, she can’t win the nomination.

    Matt @ #3: good point.

  • I’m not sure it’s a shared victory. The GOP clearly won the belt in Nevada with over four times the amount of participants. We’re concerned about a difference of 600 votes or one state delegate while the Romney alone more than doubled all of the Democrats put together.

  • Billary’s looking more and more like she’s channelling the 1968 Model Z Hubert Humphrey…

  • doubtful @ 11

    I’m not sure it’s a shared victory. The GOP clearly won the belt in Nevada with over four times the amount of participants. We’re concerned about a difference of 600 votes or one state delegate while the Romney alone more than doubled all of the Democrats put together.

    I am not sure what you are talking about. I don’t have the exact figures available, but I am sure I read that the Dem caucuses in Nevada had over 110,000 participants and the Repubs less than half that.

  • Complex is not necessarily silly. We want small states, and diverse small states, to go first to test the candidates, so that it is not a simple, national primary to anoint the biggest fund-raiser.

    Within the states, the parties have weighted counties and districts to achieve certain purposes, apparently an interest in getting the candidates to show up in places like Elko.

    How did Rumsfeld put it? “Freedom is untidy.”

    There is little doubt that Hillary’s six percent win in state delegates reflects the popular vote, and that that is a bigger story than Obama’s 13-12 projected advantage in national delegates.

    It is a complicated story, but not a silly one.

  • Caucuses are squirrelly, and an invitation to mischief. Their requirement that participants openly state their preference can lead to conflicts of interest. They exclude anyone who can’t show up and stay for hours on a specific day, their results are often ambiguous, and as a result they can raise questions of legitimacy. It’s long past time to dump them.

  • Doubtful (#11) and MW (#13), actually, the Dems won the turnout battle, although Repubs did better than they expected:

    “Democrats doubled early projections of 50,000-60,000 participants. With 98 percent of precincts reporting, the turnout was 115,800 at the party’s more than 500 caucus sites. The GOP turnout was also much larger than predicted. But at 44,300, not quite half the number the Democrats attracted even though both parties have about the same number of registered voters statewide.”

  • Well ladies and gents,

    Factoid: Obama’s tentative delegate win demonstrates that Las Vegas is only one city in the large state of Nevada…as it should be.

    Bottom Line: Rural Nevada made its voice heard…and it’s a voice that counts.

    All else is opinion and conjecture…ask Al Gore.

  • It’s the Delegates, stupid! Well, at least the press noticed this time.

    Still haven’t seen any notice of Edwards placing 2nd in Iowa with popular vote and ending up 3rd with delegates. And now in retrospect folks are noticing that New Hampshire was a tie.

    What it comes down to, though, is that anyone winning 15% of the vote wins delegates (at least on the Democratic side).

  • …so I’m playing catch-up on little to know sleep! -doubtful

    Haha, see. I can’t even choose the correct homonym. 🙂

  • According to the Nomination Delegate Counter on MyDD – “Uncommitted” is way in the lead with 55 delegates, to Obama’s 38 and Clinton’s 36. So maybe the Press is right to not focus on delegates at this point.

  • Always wrong…just amazes me…the stupidity of buying the MSM’s hype. McCain against Hillary independents will vote McCain….is nonsense. No republican will win the WH this election. It’s the parties. The republicans fully supported the Bush/Cheney disaster. The republican party could have stopped him at any time but supported him in everything. A vote for McCain is just another vote for Bush. Stop reciting this bull that the media puts out there to increase their campaign profits with ‘close race’ hype. The democrats will win the WH no matter who they nominate for president because voters are enraged at the condition of our country that the republican rule has brought about. We want the bums out not put more of them in. Next you’ll be telling us McCain/Liebermann are undefeatable…what are you a republican troll?…no I know you’re not, you just hate Hillary and will say anything to keep people from making her the nominee. Understand she would still be the leader of the dem PARTY and can do nothing without our support.
    This is what it comes down to when you make statements like McCain will beat Hillary so we must nominate someone else just in case he’s the GOP nominee:
    Nominate who I like or I’ll take my vote and go home. You either want more of this disastrous republican obstructionist rule or you want a change in direction from it…period. Now what do you think a majority of Americans want?? Right…so stop peddling the MSM competition horse race. No republican will win the WH this election.

  • At the end of the day, yes, it is a shared victory of sorts. Like it or not, it is the deligate count that matters. However, if Obama keeps getting these close seconds, he will begin to lose the perception of momentum among some voters. If, on the other hand, he and Clinton keep trading first place victories as this process unfolds, then he may be able to convince some of those “super deligates” that he is the better choice because he will bring in more independents.

    As one of those independents, I prefer Obama. And I know a lot of people whot feel the same way.

  • I’m afraid that hopes of a shared victory victory went out the window when the MSM got about halfway though puzzling out the state vs. national vs. pledged vs. superdelegate equation, realized there was no way to make a headline out of it, and decided the person who got the most votes from voters won Nevada. At this stage of the game one pledged delegate more or less doesn’t matter a hell of a lot anyway. It’s all about the Buzz. So the winner is whoever the MSM says the winner is. The MSM says the winner is Hillary Clinton. Clinton wins.

  • Certainly the popular vote matters a great deal — we know who ‘really’ won Bush’s election — but to the extent delegates count, Hillary is well ahead of Obama in general so that this is mostly propaganda put out by the noisome Mr. Axelrod to undermine the impact of Clinton’s victory, especially in the casino caucuses, which were supposed to go to Obama and mostly did not.

  • Comments are closed.