It’s only the Fourth Amendment

It’s possible you’ve had your fill on secret memos written for the Bush administration by John Yoo. But just in case, you may also find it interesting to know that for over a year after 9/11, the Bush gang operated under the assumption that the “war on terror” trumped the Fourth Amendment. Seriously.

For at least 16 months after the Sept. 11 terror attacks in 2001, the Bush administration believed that the Constitution’s protection against unreasonable searches and seizures on U.S. soil didn’t apply to its efforts to protect against terrorism.

That view was expressed in a secret Justice Department legal memo dated Oct. 23, 2001. The administration on Wednesday stressed that it now disavows that view.

The October 2001 memo was written at the request of the White House by John Yoo, then the deputy assistant attorney general, and addressed to Alberto Gonzales, the White House counsel at the time. The administration had asked the department for an opinion on the legality of potential responses to terrorist activity.

The 37-page memo is classified and has not been released. Its existence was disclosed Tuesday in a footnote of a separate secret memo, dated March 14, 2003, released by the Pentagon in response to a Freedom of Information Act lawsuit by the American Civil Liberties Union.

Specifically, the footnote said Yoo and Gonzales had concluded that the Fourth Amendment to the Constitution “had no application to domestic military operations.” The name of the memo was, “Authority for Use of Military Force to Combat Terrorist Activities Within the United States.” (Yes, counter-terrorism trumps Posse Comitatus, too.)

In other words, unreasonable searches and seizures on American soil were perfectly acceptable, without warrants or due process, just so long as Bush decided it was part of the war on terror.

What we don’t know, unfortunately, is exactly what the Bush gang did with the options it had given itself. It appears the president’s lawyers may have used them to justify warrantless searches of Americans’ phone calls and emails.

That program intercepted phone calls and e-mails on U.S. soil, bypassing the normal legal requirement that such eavesdropping be authorized by a secret federal court. The program began after the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks and continued until Jan. 17, 2007, when the White House resumed seeking surveillance warrants from the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court.

White House spokesman Tony Fratto said Wednesday that the Fourth Amendment finding in the October memo was not the legal underpinning for the Terrorist Surveillance Program.

“TSP relied on a separate set of legal memoranda,” Fratto told The Associated Press. The Justice Department outlined that legal framework in its January 2006 white paper.

The October memo was written just days before Bush administration officials, including Vice President Dick Cheney, briefed four House and Senate leaders on the NSA’s secret wiretapping program for the first time.

The government itself related the October memo to the TSP program when it included it on a list of documents that were responsive to the ACLU’s request for records from the program. It refused to hand them over.

Bush officials insisted yesterday that the footnote no longer reflects the administration’s thinking — they used to think the Fourth Amendment didn’t count anymore, but they’ve since changed their minds — but they won’t say when they made the transition back to the rule of law.

Brian Beutler added this observation:

So, by my count, the White House has, at various times, determined that the First, Fourth, Fifth, Sixth, and Eighth Amendments are unacceptable impediments to its violation of the First, Fourth, Fifth, Sixth, and Eighth Amendments, and, as such, chose to wish them out of existence as if they were minor headaches like congressional subpoenas or the national debt. Half of the bill of rights. Pretty neat trick, no?

Indeed.

“So, by my count, the White House has, at various times, determined that the First, Fourth, Fifth, Sixth, and Eighth Amendments are unacceptable impediments to its violation of the First, Fourth, Fifth, Sixth, and Eighth Amendments, and, as such, chose to wish them out of existence as if they were minor headaches like congressional subpoenas or the national debt. Half of the bill of rights. Pretty neat trick, no?”

Perhaps one of the most important phrases in the U.S. Constitution was from Article II, Section 1:

“Before he enter on the Execution of his Office, he shall take the following Oath or Affirmation:–”I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the Office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my Ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States.”

And this is the important one that the Congress better remember and act on asap.

Article II, Section 4.

The President, Vice President and all Civil Officers of the United States, shall be removed from Office on Impeachment for and Conviction of, Treason, Bribery, or other high Crimes and Misdemeanors.

  • We knew this was going on a long time ago, but it’s sobering to see the sheer number of examples of cases where this so called “war” has been used as a weapon against the constitution. And just like the war on drugs, the “war on terror” will never end. Meanwhile, Nancy Pelosi’s nice clean coffee table shines like the dickens.

    And of course the press corpse keeps playing along like it’s some kind of game when the president declares in a secret memo that he can violate the constitution at will for as long as he wants to do it. In today’s media environment I doubt if there’s a single MSM bobblehead who could actually understand the crimes they’ve enabled. It’s far more important to have nice teeth and hair than a brain.

  • I think that was just the argument King George III used when he practiced unwarranted searches and seizures, detentions without charge, etc..

    We adopted the amendments to the constitution to limit the authority of the executive because we had just been through decades of intolerable oppression in the name of security. Yoo must be a f**king idiot if he thinks Article II trumps Amendment 4.

  • Any chance that John Yoo isn’t actually a lawyer, that he just stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night? I mean, seriously, where the hell did this guy go to law school, and how did he pass the bar? It seems the only lesson he picked up is, “under certain circumstances, the law is as meaningless as if it were never written”.

    He should be disbarred and made to work as a Wal-Mart greeter until he reaches compulsory retirement.

  • I am a firm believer that both Bush and Cheney will rot in hell for what they have done. But unfortunatley with the razor slim majorities in both chamber that the Democrats have impeachment will never pass. Sorry guys but those facts just get in the way of true justice being served.

  • I’m so glad Speaker Pelosi and Majority Leader Reid took impeachment off the table, obviously we have no need for half of our Bill of Rights.

    Remember when the Treason Trials come, after we try and convict all the Republicans and the propagandists who colluded, that there will be many Dems to try as well. We can’t restore the Constitution, democracy and sanity back unto these shores unless and until we excise the entire seeping, pistulant un-democratic boil off the ass of the 21st Century. Every last bit of it.

  • Half of the bill of rights.

    More than that — they’re the only ones that are really in need of saving against a conservative onslaught.

    The Second deals with gun rights, and there’s no way they’d touch that. The Third is pretty much irrelevant, unless the military budget crunch gets so bad they actually need to house soldiers in private homes. The Seventh guarantees trials for cases where money’s at stake, and God knows their corporate masters would ever let them touch that. The Ninth and Tenth are essentially the rationale for states’ rights.

    The other five are the ones with the stuff that touchy-queery liberals like — freedom of speech, assembly, religion, press and petition; freedom from searches and seizures; trial by jury; right to counsel; protection against cruel and unusual punishment. You know, the hippie shit.

    So yeah, they destroyed half the Bill of Rights. The half that matters.

  • Can’t someone impeach these criminals? I’m fed-up from reading about how they once again trashed the Constitution they have sworn to uphold. I mean, I’ve REALLY had it.

  • The DoJ does not make law…they enforce it. They are just as liable as anyone else for breaking it. Their “opinions” are not the law. They are just as liable to punishment as those who carried out illegal activities based on their opinions. Of course they kept it all secret because the law would not have tolerated their behavior. Their “opinions” didn’t change the law but were used by this administration as justification for breaking the law.

    Yoo teaches at a respectable major university when he should be arrested for war crimes as it was his opinions that encouraged and made possible the “torture regime” carried out by the Bush administration. His opinions were the justification for torture. His students should be throwing their books at him rather than calling him Dr. He deserves no respect and is as criminal as any Nazi torturer that ever existed. Glenn Greenwald has a photograph of him at his site at salon.com. His picture speaks volumes in his case and I hope that all those tortured by this regime memorize it.

  • This, ladies and gentlemen, is why they went around accusing anyone and everyone who disagreed with them as “terrorist sympathizers.” If they could “prove” (and with the Bush gang, I use that term loosely) you were “supporting” terrorists — by arguing they had rights, etc. — then they could do whatever they wanted with you. Indefinite incarceration, torture, searches without warrants, etc.

    I know, I know … that seems awfully paranoid and conspiracy theoryish. But would any of us really put it past them?

    Also, let me just state for the record something that may seem like hyperbole, but really isn’t: Without blogs, this administration would have gotten away with much, much more than they already have. The corporate media sure as hell didn’t — and still doesn’t — do any fact checking on Bush Co., and without bloggers making noise and getting some stories out there that may not have seen the light of day otherwise, it helped to keep the Bush administration in check.

    Again, that may seem like a lofty statement, but think about how many stories have been kept alive thanks to blogs. Think of how much work Glenn Greenwald has put into FISA, or Firedoglake with Ned Lamont, or George Allen’s “macaca” moment, etc. etc. etc.

    Well done, folks … well done!

  • The October memo was written just days before Bush administration officials, including Vice President Dick Cheney, briefed four House and Senate leaders on the NSA’s secret wiretapping program for the first time.

    Obviously Yoo was tasked with covering Cheney’s ass. I would say that since the constitution is the foundation of our nation, and since Mr Yoo directly assaulted it, in the interest of national security he should be taken to a place where he can be interrogated in a legal manner, granting him all the rights he allowed for the rest of us (which is none).

    The way the Bush crime family reversed course on this indicates to me that they knew that they stepped way over the line, and all their attempts at securing retroactive immunity for the people who can testify against them should be viewed accordingly.

    I can’t help but wonder how different things could be if we were fortunate enough to have leadership with actual spines. Given what we already know about the crimes that have already been admitted, it’s very safe to say that a simple investigation would reveal more than enough crimes to warrant impeachment.

  • Is there ANYTHING John Yoo won’t come up with a legal justification to enable?

    Bush: “John, we need legal justification the world is flat…”

    Yoo: “No problem!”

    What a dishonest hack. Guaranteed lifetime employment with Republicans.

  • It seems that those who forget (or never knew about) things like the Nuremberg Trials are doomed to repeat them.

    Alas, Americans’ aversion to studying history has bitten us on the ass.

  • “The administration on Wednesday stressed that it now disavows that view.” All those who believe that, raise your hand.

    You see, it’s the “…and will to the best of my Ability” part that these guys just lose it. They simply never had the aptitude nor the inclination to do the job. They were arrogant enough to believe they could do it, but the electorate just couldn’t see past it to their white hot core of incompetence.

    Racer X is getting warmer on this. One of my reactions after reading the articles was, “What domestic military operations?” Oh yes, the illegal wiretapping program. Of course, it started before 9-11, so there is more to find out. Scott Horton at No Comment notes today that there are three other DOJ OLC memos out there after the two Yoo memos. They need to see the light of day now too. Time to re-read Jay Rockefeller’s letter in his safe.

    Our Republic is almost gone and these memos are prime evidence. But I say almost because the final test is whether we the people will hold any of these criminals accountable in the end. If they die in bed on a pile of money, then we are truly finished.

    William Haynes is now chief counsel of Chevron. John Yoo is a professor at UC Berkeley. Corporate and Institutional America does not seem to mind. Michael Chertoff, Alice Fisher, and Stephen Bradbury are still being paid by me and you. Michael Mukasey seems to approve of all this.

    Disbarring these idiots would be a good start. However, it’s going to require a whole lot more.

  • DaddyO (#10) and once we lose net neutrality? What happens to the truth when the neocons (be it these or future ones) determine that we don’t need no stinkin’ net neutrality and they become the gate keepers to what I think more than a few people take for granted?

    BTW, this bears repeating, so I shall (h/t Joe)

    John Yoo nests at the Boalt Hall School of Law University of California Berkeley.

    Brendan over at brendancalling wants to singe his tailfeathers.

    Check out this link and if you can get behind the idea, please, pass it on.

    http://brendancalling.com/2008/04/02/shaming-and-shunning/

    The idea is to write Yoo’s colleagues and superiors at UC – Berkeley and ask them what they think about their reputations being soiled, as well as that of the university itself, by association with Yoo. Peer pressure, as it were, to get this guy ousted.

    I applaud the effort and hope that you guys might, too. Addresses are available through the above link.

  • The Second deals with gun rights, and there’s no way they’d touch that. -TR

    Actually, they’ve been trampling all over that one for years. When was the last time any gun toting idiot who argued with you about his ‘right’ to own guns was part of a well regulated militia?

    I’d wager to say it’s the success they’ve had ignoring the second amendment which has made them so bold to trample the others.

    . The Seventh guarantees trials for cases where money’s at stake, and God knows their corporate masters would ever let them touch that. -TR

    Unless, of course, it’s the corporate master’s money at stake after they spied illegally on citizens. Then trials be damned.

  • This reminds me of the old Soviet Constitution, there was a part in there that “guaranteed secrecy” of mail/postal system, but in reality the KGB opened up practically every single letter there was. So, the only way to protect us from terrorist attack, because the terrorists hate us for our freedoms, is to strike down those freedoms in secret memorandum and act without any regard to written law. Thanks, I feel much safer now.

  • The time may come where that 2nd amendment may wind up being what saves all of our lives, for we may have to become our own militias.

    And I cannot believe that *I* could ever utter those words.

  • The time may come where that 2nd amendment may wind up being what saves all of our lives, for we may have to become our own militias. -MsJoanne

    In the meantime we have to suffer how many thousands of deaths because of these guns? 20 school children have lost their lives in Chicago alone this year already to gun violence.

    I think it far more likely that a gun owned in America will be used to kill an American than ever be used to fight an organized invading army (foreign or domestic), and I’m not prepared to accept the sacrifice of so many young lives to that unlikely future scenario.

  • Doubtful,

    yeah, because those commas in the language of the second amendment clearly don’t indicate separate clauses, its us gun toting idiots that read it that way. I’d like you to point out everywhere else in the constitution that those hack framers messed up their rhetorical intentions and punctuation.

    A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the People to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

    If you don’t like the 2nd amendment, then stop using the 1st amendment to bitch about the loss of your 4th amendment on these comments. The framers made it the 2nd amendment because they felt that was the second most important thing at the time, behind your beloved 1st amendment freedoms.

    I do agree with you though that the repubs do step all over this amendment. Say if they had gotten a permanent majority (shudder) then how to keep their power indefinitely? Remove the power of the people to resist.

  • doubtful,

    if you want to start removing the causes of death in this country, banning the automobile would make the largest difference.

    As far as gun violence goes, lets just make more places “gun free zones” because then people won’t carry guns in there. Oh wait, what’s that? Virginia tech was a gun free zone? The last few mall shootings were gun free zones? Columbine High School was a gun free zone? Let’s call them what they are, “victim disarmament zones.”

    By the way, my roommate and friend were carjacked at gunpoint and made to drive around for two hours while the guys were telling them how they might have to kill them. They told me if they had had a gun in the car, the carjackers wouldn’t have gotten as far as getting in the car. They’re not crying for gun control.

  • cause you know, if there hadn’t of been any cars in america, my roommate and friend wouldn’t have been able to be carjacked, right doubtful?

  • DB,

    English language. You’re doing it wrong. Here is a correct rephrasing of the second:

    Since a citizen army is important for security, the citizens should be allowed to have guns, but lets keep a close eye on them.

    Repeating the NRA talking points doesn’t impress me. Frankly, they aren’t keeping a close enough eye on you (well regulated), you’re not a member of a militia, and therefore you do not have a Constitutionally protected right to bear arms.

    Being illiterate doesn’t grant you the right to bear arms without restriction.

    If you don’t like the 2nd amendment, then stop using the 1st amendment to bitch about the loss of your 4th amendment on these comments. -DB

    To begin with, what a vapid and shallow argument. What I don’t like is how gun loving morons have misread the 2nd. I have nothing against a proper reading of the 2nd, but even if I, why does that automatically mean I can’t like the 1st and 4th?

    Sigh.

  • Mark at #4 and joey at #9 make cogent observations, and I agree Yoo needs to be disbarred at the very least for hoisting such madness onto our legal/Constitutional system here in the good ol’USA. What a cockamamie legal head this Yoo guy seems to be. Me thinks he deserves no respect for being educated in the freest world community, and then turning around to author such anti-democratic legal opinions to shore up illegal activity under official cover. If Mr. Bush is Alice, John Yoo is the white rabbit Bush followed down the rabbit hole. -Kevo

  • if you want to start removing the causes of death in this country, banning the automobile would make the largest difference. -DB

    More NRA talking points. Blah, blah, blah.

    Cars are meant for transportation. Guns are meant for killing. And did I say anywhere I wanted to ban guns or repeal the second amendment. You really aren’t very good at reading.

    I want a well regulated militia. I don’t think gun owners in America meet those requirements. That’s why most guns used in violent crime are legal or once legal stolen guns. Increase the regulation and you cut down on that.

    Virginia tech was a gun free zone? The last few mall shootings were gun free zones? Columbine High School was a gun free zone? Let’s call them what they are, “victim disarmament zones.”

    Haha, thanks for proving my point, dunderhead. All of those guns were legally purchased. In the case of VT, purchased by the killer when he should have failed to pass ownership requirements due to mental illness.

    And please, enlighten us,when was the last time a gun owner prevented a tragedy from occurring?

    They told me if they had had a gun in the car, the carjackers wouldn’t have gotten as far as getting in the car. -DB

    Or your friends would be dead. Is that unfathomable to you? Besides, what does increased gun control have to do with your friends owning a gun. As long as they present to their militia commander and pass all regularly administered tests, they should be allowed to own and/or carry.

    I’m not so naive that I think more regulation will eliminate gun crimes or prevent criminals from having guns. But I have the heart and will to try, if even to save one child’s life.

    I repeat, this time with necessary emphasis, Being illiterate doesn’t grant you the right to bear arms without restriction.

  • Doubtful,

    hey, isn’t that what the republicans do? they reinterpret things to fit their ideological thinking? Like, its not torture, it’s “enhanced interrogation technique”?

    Hmm..whats a well regulated militia? Like a state/national guard? That’s the military. And the actual militias that do exist? If you think the government doesn’t keep a close eye on them, you haven’t been paying attention for the past years.

    And also, i am not going to be dragged down into a he said-he said argument by some holier than thou bleeding heart liberal, because that’s what a conservative does. A citizen who respects the written law of the land will wait for the supreme court to issue their decision in july as to the washington dc gun ban, which touches on the exact disagreement we have right now:whether the language in the 2nd give the right of the individual to keep and bear arms.

    Also, i didn’t say you couldn’t LIKE the 1st and 4th if you don’t like the 2nd; i said you can’t HAVE the 1st and the 4th without the second.

    (also, you and i apparently differ in our views on the definition of illiteracy)

  • hey, isn’t that what the republicans do? they reinterpret things to fit their ideological thinking? -DB

    You’re absolutely right. I’m surprised you’d be so honest about it since you’re the one doing just that. You’re the one with an ideology here. You want to own a gun without the nasty government interfering with you.

    I wasn’t reinterpreting. I was trying to use smaller words with a sentence structure you would understand since you were so very clearly confused.

    I think if you want to own that gun, you need to report to someone on a regular basis and meet certain requirements periodically. Since you brought up driving a while ago, I have to renew my driver’s license and car insurance periodically.

    (also, you and i apparently differ in our views on the definition of illiteracy) -DB

    You can go with the ‘able to read a newspaper headline’ definition that’s popular in the world today, but I will stick with my ‘unable to understand and comprehend the 2nd amendment’ definition.

    And as for allowing yourself to be dragged into an argument, you have already made several posts concerning this topic, three in a row at one point. What makes you think I’m dragging you anywhere? Seems like you went willingly.

    And to the upcoming Supreme Court decision: anyone who is awaiting a decision from this SCOTUS to uphold their belief is not a Democrat or a liberal in the least. This SCOTUS would love nothing more than to shit all over the Constitution and you know as well as I they will take the NRA and gun lobby position on this issue, not because of the 2nd amendment, but because of who lines their pockets and what their ideology is.

    I do respect the written law. I respect the 2nd amendment, and that’s why I would appreciate it if our Government followed it as written.

    I’ve already said to you repeatedly that I don’t want to take your precious guns away. I just want to you to report to someone on a regular basis, have your guns (all of them) registered, and you must pass a battery of tests on a regular basis to maintain your right to bear arms.

    And spying on rogue groups is not akin to regulating gun ownership. You’re sliding further into a dishonest and disingenuous argument.

    Also, i didn’t say you couldn’t LIKE the 1st and 4th if you don’t like the 2nd; i said you can’t HAVE the 1st and the 4th without the second. -DB

    I guess that’s true. They’d be the 1st and the 3rd if there were no 2nd. Weird how you have to have the right to own a gun so I can have freedom of press, speech, and religion, and protection from unwarranted search and seizure though. I simply don’t see how that follows, but then again, I’m using traditional logic.

    Call me a bleeding heart all you want. I hate seeing kids murdered with guns. If you can’t stomach taking a test or two every year to keep your guns and sit idly by will children are shot to death every day, you’re a monster.

  • First, I don’t even know what the NRA talking points are.

    Second, you say you want a “well regulated militia” but in the same breath say that “I don’t think gun owners in America meet those requirements.” You are saying that adults cannot be responsible unless big brother is watching them all the time? I personally believe there is no such thing as a “gun accident”, there is only “gun negligence.”

    Third, as far as my victim disarmament zones comment goes, i you didn’t read about the university student in jerusalem who shot a gunman that was attacking people cause he had a license to carry a pistol. you didn’t? That’s right, because armed citizens can’t fight back or anything.

    And my friends, how would they have been in more danger than they were during the carjacking? Because my friend who was driving the car at the time won 2nd place national pistol shooting competition his freshman year of college? Your probably right about that too.

    And in your last part of the comment, where you say preventing law abiding citizens won’t prevent criminals from getting guns, what point are you trying to make? That we might as well submit? That if only criminals have guns, children won’t be innocently slaughtered?

    I only wish i didn’t have to leave work where i work on cancer drugs that will save peoples lives and pain medications that will allow our patients to have relief because their pain is to the point where they think about suicide to stop it so that i can continue to debate this issue with you. But there is tomorrow. I suggest in the meantime you locate a dictionary and learn what the definition of “illiterate” is (hint: it doesn’t mean someone who you disagree with).

  • also read some history while your at it because our country was founded with George Washington’s army using sticks and rocks to fight. Sorry, i didn’t read the rest of your last comment because I don’t insinuate that people who i disagree with me are of a lower order of intelligence such as you are doing. I try to have an honest debate and i do apologize for getting into your name calling with the bleeding heart liberal comment. You must understand that there are liberals who like guns. And my buddy that just got back from Iraq from his 15month vacation, he wouldn’t like the gun toting=morons/idiots remark, in fact, he would act violently against you if he had the chance, but he doesn’t read blogs like these. I have a diverse group of friends with diverse opinions. I like guns but i don’t like killing. It would grieve more terribly to take a life, but when it’s theirs or mine, I will defend myself. When they take me before the judge afterwards, I will explain the situation, and say regardless if I am punished or not for this taking of a life, I am alive to receive that punishment.

  • also, when you renew your drivers license, you don’t retake the written and driving tests so its not the same as saying gun owners have to be retested. To get a concealed handgun license you have to prove firearm proficiency to the Law Enforcement Officer administering the training. Guns are more regulated than you assume them to be.

  • Yeah, because impeachment means something to these criminals. They took it off the table when they impeached Clinton.

    People who crow about impeachment now are not Democrats, they’re Partisans, looking for any reason to fight the executive without caring about yesterday’s battle.

    Anyhow, we can’t impeach the Executive until we impeach a few more of the Republican Congress. Put your blame where blame lies.

  • PS, DB… Do /you/ know the difference between Partisans and a Militia?

    Partisans killed more Americans than British soldiers in the Revolutionary War. Militias they were not. Militias killed more British soldiers than Americans.

    Look it up.

  • Second, you say you want a “well regulated militia” but in the same breath say that “I don’t think gun owners in America meet those requirements.” -DB

    That’s my whole point. Gun owners in America currently don’t meet the requirements of a ‘well regulated militia.’ What’s your point here? There is no dissonance between saying I want something, a well regulated militia, that doesn’t exist yet in my opinion?

    And my friends, how would they have been in more danger than they were during the carjacking? Because my friend who was driving the car at the time won 2nd place national pistol shooting… -DB

    Yeah, shooting a target at range is the same as shooting a human being who has a gun to your head. How can you possibly ask us to realistically equate those?

    You are saying that adults cannot be responsible unless big brother is watching them all the time? -DB

    Good regulation isn’t ‘big brother.’ Spying on US Citizens without thier consent is ‘big brother.’ Consenting to a test or gun inspection in order to have the right to own said gun is not unlawful government intrusion. It’s responsibility.

    …also read some history while your at it because our country was founded with George Washington’s army using sticks and rocks to fight. -DB

    Right. Sticks and rocks. Definitely not the Guns of Ticonderoga. Munitions were tight, but they had them, and they were fighting a half-hearted force from across the ocean. You are delusional if you think disorganized gun owners in America can stand against our multi-billion dollar military complex. The days when we could stand up to our government have long passed.

    And frankly, if you want to stand up to a Government that has overstepped its bounds, then you’ll never have a better opportunity than now, soldier. Step to it.

    And my buddy that just got back from Iraq from his 15month vacation, he wouldn’t like the gun toting=morons/idiots remark, in fact, he would act violently against you if he had the chance, but he doesn’t read blogs like these.

    All the more reason the gun toting moron should not have a fucking gun. He’s going to get violent with me because of an opinion I have, sheesh, could you prove me right any more? He joined the military for the money, right, because such a champion of free speech is certainly not concerned about defending our rights? Oh, dear, please let me change my opinion so I don’t offend this angry anonymous hypocrite.

    …you didn’t read about the university student in jerusalem who shot a gunman that was attacking people… -DB

    Great. One non-American example with no links, and this justifies your misreading of the 2nd, how? And again, I didn’t say you couldn’t carry. I said you’d have to pass more tests before you can be a vigilante hero. Maybe you’re just worried you wouldn’t pass them?

    For every tragedy you say was prevented in a foreign country, I’ll give you 10,000 dead Americans.

    And look, Db, no one cares that you’re allegedly curing cancer or you buddy is allegedly a shooting champing or your other buddy just allegedly got back from Iraq. Sounds made up to garner sympathy or support for your weak arguments if you ask me. And if it is true, I hope none of those suicidal patients of yours own a legal gun. Maybe you should spend less money on guns so you can have a computer at home and stop wasting time at work arguing with me since you’re work is so fucking important (just ask you) to suicidal pain sufferers?

    Sorry, i didn’t read the rest of your last comment because I don’t insinuate that people who i disagree with me are of a lower order of intelligence such as you are doing. -DB

    Oh, sorry, I won’t you three syllable words. Aw, crap, syllable has three syllables. Um. Me not talky so hard for you, k?

    I’m not insinuating anything. I’m flat out fucking saying it. You are inferior because you’re manipulating and misreading the 2nd amendment in order to justify weak regulation of gun ownership.

    I suggest in the meantime you locate a dictionary and learn what the definition of “illiterate” is (hint: it doesn’t mean someone who you disagree with). -DB

    Haha, I’ve already explained it you, but again, you don’t understand or grasp the 2nd amendment even though it’s written in quite plain English. Therefore, you is be illiterate.

    You lost this argument before it began because I have James Madison on my side. All you’ve got to do is read.

  • Guns are more regulated than you assume them to be. -DB

    The driver’s license was just an extension of the example that you had brought up earlier. I’m well aware that guns are regulated, but it seems rather obvious that I don’t agree they are regulated enough.

    And you’re talking about handguns. I’m talking about all guns. Shotguns, rifles, handguns. Everything. Registered, tracked, inspected, tested. Owners have to pass regular gun competence tests and psychological batteries.

  • Lance:

    Yoo must be a f**king idiot if he thinks Article II trumps Amendment 4.

    Absolutely. The bill of rights was enacted specifically because there was substantial dispute that the US Constitution, as originally written, did not go sufficiently far enough in protecting individual liberty (or at least was not clear enough on the point). By definition amendments are enacted afterwards and therefore supersede any previously contradictory law. The 4th amendment was designed and adopted to prevent exactly the claim of power the administration asserted in the clearest terms possible. Not to mention practically all the rest of the claims the administration has asserted.

  • doubtful

    I apologize for debasing myself in front of you like I did in my comments yesterday. In reading your critique of my somewhat lengthy(and at times disjointed) posts from yesterday, i realized that i was looking at my arguments in a mirror, the text of your words. That put into perspective past comments I have made regarding this subject on this site and I discovered that you and I are very alike, though we may be at polar opposite ends of this debate, we are the same in that we are both extremes. Not extreme in the sense that you want all guns removed from society and not extreme in the sense that I want completely unfettered access to all, no exceptions. We are both roughy the same distance from the center, albeit opposite sides.

    And in this moment of clarity that I had this morning reading your comments, I began to comprehend that I was not debating anything at all for I had already assumed an elitist attitude that I was correct in this matter and that there is no debate to be had no matter what the other guy says. When I recognized this I saw that I was not arguing with you, just as you were not arguing with me; I was TELLING you, as you were telling me, and this is wrong and for that I ask forgiveness and for a return to less passionate and more scientific dialogue amongst those with dissimilar opinions.

    I also apologize to everyone else who enjoys frequenting this site as I do and will rectify this behavior in future comments to keep the debate at a higher standard as that will benefit all.

  • Hey, well said, DB. It’s a pity it’s so far downthread that a lot of people won’t see it. Still, the one who gains from such objective self-analysis is you. And you’re right, sometimes it’s easy to become so passionate on an issue that any dissenting view demands rudeness and derision.

    And hey, John McCain’s newly-announced honour code says you must be forgiven! Look forward to seeing you again.

  • Comments are closed.