John the Baptist? — Day Two

Following up on yesterday’s item, the Politico’s Jonathan Martin asked yesterday why John McCain’s claim about being a Baptist matters.

The notion of being identified with one Protestant denomination but attending services at another doesn’t strike me as terribly odd or really all that uncommon.

Is the fuss in South Carolina because McCain pointed out that he’s a Baptist in a heavily-Baptist state? Or is it just because McCain so rarely talks with any detail about his faith?

Either way, there are untold numbers of Christians who attend the church that they find most compatible for a variety of reasons. That an Episcopalian would find more fulfillment in a local Baptist church and thus go there with his family is something that is by no means limited to politicians.

That’s true, but I think Jon’s missing some of the key details that make this story interesting. There’s a real controversy here — and an example of an entirely self-inflicted wound.

If an Episcopalian attends services at a Baptist church, that’s routine. But McCain, who has always identified himself as an Episcopalian, told a reporter in South Carolina that he’d given up on being an Episcopalian in order to become a Baptist. This, just three months after McClatchy did a report on McCain’s religiosity in which he was identified as an Episcopalian. In fact, as recently as May, McCain’s own staff told the AP that the senator is an Episcopalian.

And yet, over the weekend, unprompted, McCain told a reporter, “By the way, I’m not Episcopalian. I’m Baptist.” Given what we know, it looks as if McCain may have claimed a new affiliation simply in the hopes it would give his campaign a boost.

What’s more, it looks as if McCain now knows he’s made a blunder — and doesn’t know how to get out of it.

“There’s been some talk about my religious persuasion,” said the Arizona Senator, referring to a weekend report by the Associated Press that McCain said he was a Baptist although he has long identified himself as an Episcopalian.

“I was raised in the Episcopal Church and attended high school, it was a high school called Episcopal High School. I have attended North Phoenix Baptist Church for many years, and the most important thing is that I’m a Christian, and I don’t have anything else to say about the issue,” McCain said.

In May, McCain’s an Episcopalian. In June, he’s an Episcopalian. In September, he’s a Baptist, and has been for years. Asked to explain how this can be, he says, “I don’t have anything else to say about the issue.” He clearly made a denominational switch, but now he doesn’t want to talk about it. Why not?

Keep a couple of things in mind. First, the point of this story has nothing to do with theology — no one cares which faith tradition McCain embraces. The point is that the senator seems to have undergone a sudden conversion to Baptism in South Carolina, where Baptists are the majority. What prompted the conversion? McCain has nothing else to say on the subject. Hmm.

Second, McCain brought this up. This isn’t an instance of reporters hounding a candidate about a private matter; in this case, the senator raised the issue on his own, unprompted. And now he’s kind of stuck.

McCain also noted that his family has been baptized into their church, but he has not. I suggested yesterday that’s there’s a theological problem there, prompting some comments that I was off-base. For what it’s worth, my understanding is in line with Ed Kilgore’s:

Well, you’d think anyone who’s been attending a Baptist Church for 15 years might have caught wind of the fact that the denomination, as its name suggests, believes rather adamantly that baptism is necessary for salvation, a reasonably important “spiritual need” by most measurements.

And no, it wouldn’t cut any ice with his fellow-Baptists if it turns out that McCain, like most Episcopalians, was baptized via sprinkling as an infant. Any kind of Baptist I’ve ever heard of holds that only a “believer’s baptism” (i.e., at an age of consent) through full bodily immersion is valid. That’s why their theological ancestors in Europe were contemptuously dubbed “Re-baptizers,” or “Anabaptists.”

Meanwhile, some religious conservatives recognize McCain’s mistake.

“When I read that I said ‘You gotta be kidding,’ ” said David Jeffers, a lay preacher and author of “Understanding Evangelicals: A Guide to Jesusland,” who said by not being baptized by immersion, Mr. McCain is out of step with the church he attends in Arizona.

“It’s your words, sir, that’s why we’re contending with it,” he said, adding the issue is not whether Mr. McCain feels more comfortable as a Baptist. “We have a problem with you trying to say ‘I’m a Baptist’ while you’re in the middle of the heartland of Baptist country.”

Complicating Mr. McCain’s explanation is the fact that, despite his church attendance, he never bothered to correct the record during the last 15 years in several authoritative sources, including the Almanac of American Politics and the newly released CQ’s Politics in America 2008, both of which list him as Episcopalian.

His campaign didn’t return a message seeking comment yesterday.

It’s hard to know what reporters are going to pick up on, but this is a genuine story. McCain claimed a very recent conversion, which he can’t explain and doesn’t want to talk about. If the media picks up on this, as it should, the senator will have a fairly serious problem on his hands.

Could this be the answer?

American Adults Religious Identification (Age 18+)
Christian Religious Groups

Catholic: 24.5%

Baptist: 16.3%

Christian: 6.8%
(no denomination
specified)

Methodist/Wesleyan: 6.8%

Lutheran: 4.6%

Other [>1%]: Presbyterian; Pentecostal/Charismatic, Protestant,
Nondenominational, Episcopalian/Anglican; Mormon/Latter-Day Saints; Churches of Christ

  • I wouldn’t call it unprompted. If you accept that McCain’s conversion is genuine, then what else was he supposed to do? The reporter referred to him as an episcopalian, which is now incorrect, so McCain corrected him. I don’t believe his explanation either, he was clearly trying to take political advantage of his family’s conversion and went too far, but he was prompted to do so.

  • The Apostle Paul experienced a conversion on the road to Damascus. John (“the Baptist”) McCain seems to have experienced a conversion on the road to the White House. (Actually this joke gets credited to Republican candidate Mike Huckabee in another context.)

    Episcopalians, like some other mainline Protestant denominations, are suffering internal conflict over the place of gay ministers and lay people in the church. Congregations have split over the issue and even seceded from the denomination. There is no such controversy among Southern Baptists. Looking in from the outside, it’s my impression that only place for gay people in a Southern Baptist church is somewhere else.

    We have seen the recent Republican hysteria over Larry Craig’s homosexual bathroom incident, while David Vitter’s dalliance with prostitutes does nothing to offend their “family values.” Although he’s been attending a Baptist church for years, I think that McCain’s change in the denomination with which he identifies has more to do with politics than faith. Being a Baptist is more appealing to the Republican base than being an Episcopalian.

    It’s the homophobia, stupid.

  • OkieFromMuskogee:

    Interesting point. But I don’t think this necessarily indicates McCain is homophobic — rather that he’s terrified of being asked the question about what he thinks the correct solution in his church is. If he’s not Episcopalian anymore, he can say “it’s their business.”

  • To call one’s self a Christian in the same soundbyte as making an adamant refusal to clarify how this can be so—especially when the discussion revolves around the literal definition of baptism as expressed by the Baptist faith—is little more than the basis of tarring one’s self with the label of “hypocrite.”

    Congratulations, Mr. McCain—you’ve just lost the state of South Carolina….

  • With respect to Mr. Kilgore, he’s describing a Baptist doctrine that is quite inconsistent with anything I ever encountered in my years as a believer attending Baptist churches. The idea that baptism is necessary for salvation would be strongly rejected by any of the churches I attended– which were, concededly, independent and therefore not affiliated with either of the major Baptist organizations in the United States, whose doctrines I can’t comment on with authority but which I would be quite surprised to find diverge from what I’ve seen on this point. The fundamental belief of all of the conservative Protestant groups that I’ve ever encountered has been that salvation is purely a matter of spiritually accepting Christ and that the physical act of baptism is an expression of faith but has nothing to do with salvation.

    On a related note, I still think you’re blowing this out of proportion. If McCain has attended a Baptist church for years, it seems to me he’s reasonably entitled to consider himself a Baptist even if he has never made a point of identifying himself as such in the past.

  • John McCain is a maverick and a straight-shooter, he’s not confused. Let’s not challenge the conventional wisdom here.

    OK, given the diversity of opinion when there’s a discussion anywhere (in the real world), the homogeneity of opinion in the MSM is truely suspect. Actually it is unbelievable, unless the possibility that a consensus is reached somewhere, and very little other opinion is expressed.

    Believe me, this won’t be picked up as a story, because it callenges the consensus opinion that the MSM has established.

  • Poster #4 hit a home run. The US Episcopalians are likely to split from the Anglican Communion, either by their own choice or by the action of the Communion through the Archbishop of Canterbury. Few protestant denominations are as roiled over homosexuality as the very tolerant Episcopalians at the moment. In addition the Presiding Bishop is a woman, and one openly gay bishop (Robinson) has been elected and installed in New Hampshire. If you’re trying to reinforce your bonifides with the Christian wingnuts, being an Episcopalian doesn’t get you much traction to begin with, and you might have to make some public choices about all sorts of issues, including the homo-schism. So become a Baptist instead.

    Except that there are different kinds of Baptists, and in South Carolina they are Southern Baptists, as big a bunch of knuckle-dragging trogs as there is. The very reasonable and respectable Christian, Jimmy Carter a life-long Southern Baptist, publicly renounced his membership because, in his view, the huge church had gone over the edge. You won’t find women clergy, gays, blacks, or diversity worthy of the name in the Southern Baptist Convention. In that company, McCain won’t have to make any overt public choices. As a Southern Baptist their doctrine has done it for him: we now know (if we didn’t already) he’s anti-woman, anti-gay, anti-black, anti-sex, homophobic, pro-white supremacy, pro-military, pro-Rethuglican. That’s why being a Southern Baptist means.

    Being an Episcopalian was far too messy. You have to think a little.

  • Rich,

    Do you have any reason to believe that the North Phoenix Baptist Church, which McCain attends, is a Southern Baptist affilate? I looked at their website, which a commenter in yesterday’s thread posted, and did not see any indication that it is affiliated with any larger Baptist organization.

  • This is part and parcel of McCain’s awkward metamorphosis from moderate conservative to right-wing conservative. It’s obvious that his heart isn’t in it and that he’s a horrible liar. It’s sad, really.

    I spent my early years as an Episcopalian and was recently married in an Episcopal church after about 30 years away from it. I was struck by just how progressive the church had become. In fact, one of the prerequisites for marriage within the church was counseling with an ordained minister. I hadn’t related to someone so fully, and felt able to express myself so freely, as I did with this minister (a woman, no less) since college. We went on and on for hours about the “war” in Iraq, the hypocrisy of “Christians”, their unholy union with the Republican Party, the need to respect all peoples in their diversity (including gays), and even questioned the inerrancy of the Bible.

    It has probably only recently occurred to McCain that being Episcopalian wasn’t scoring him any points with the Base. Baptists, on the other hand, have a well established presence in “Crazy Base World”.

  • Whether this damages McCain probably depends on how Southern Baptists themselves react. In his original statement, he said about baptism: “I didn’t find it necessary to do so for my spiritual needs.” That’s a pretty big pill for a Southern Baptist to swallow and still claim McCain as one of their “own”. For what it’s worth, baptism is the cornerstone of the Baptist faith — it represents washing away sin and rising into a state of grace.

    So a genuine Baptist may have two responses.

    The first might be a response of flattery — “Gee, he attends one of our churches with his family!” People like this are watched for a “turn to the faith” if not actively proselytized. They HAVE voluntarily subjected themselves to the teachings and evoke a lot of “gotta’ save this good man” interest in churches.

    The second response would likely be negative. If you put what you think are higher spiritual priorities over a cornerstone church rite and thereby avoid entering the “fellowship of believers”, you really can’t claim to “be” a Baptist.

    In the long run, and perhaps privately, McCain’s sudden religious switch isn’t likely to impress many Southern Baptists because it patently wasn’t a switch, at least to a Southern Baptist. But they aren’t likely to say it because of who McCain is.

  • James Dillon

    I think you’re correct about the Phoenix church. Most Southern Baptist churches publicly associate themselves with the Southern Baptist Convention (may be required to do that). I also noticed that none of their church groups or activities bear the names of these groups in the Southern Baptist Convention.

    Still, the church itself requires immersion baptism for membership, so McCain can’t be a member, even if he attends.

  • Let’s face it – all this comes down to a one-word description of John McCain: pathetic.

    The man would have done himself a favor if his ejection seat had malfunctioned back in 1966. Then he’d be another honored hero on a wall. (personally, I don’t think my war was worth one name on a wall, but that’s me)

  • 1. Are you religious? If so, please continue (if not, the survey is over).
    2. Are you the right kind of religious? If Christian, please continue (if not, the survey is over).
    3. Are you the right kind of Christian? If Baptist, please continue (if not, the survey is over).
    4. Are you the right kind of Baptist…

  • Could this be the answer? — Dennis – SGMM

    That’s close, but I think this picture (from this site) illustrates the significance of it a little more, particularly given this happened in South Carolina.

  • Since Steve quoted from my post approvingly, I feel honor-bound to report that on my own site, I got upbraided by a passle of Baptists who correctly argued that I’d gotten their doctrine wrong on the relationship of salvation to baptism, which is a “mark”‘ of salvation but not a condition precedent for being “saved.” Some went further and contended that McCain’s position of eschewing full immersion baptism wasn’t that unusual, which I’m a lot more skeptical about. Sure, it’s not a “sacrament” in the sense that it is for Catholics, Orthodox, or certain mainline Protestants. But most Baptist churches require full immersion for church membership, which doesn’t suggest it’s a sort of spiritual option based on personal “needs.” And doctrine aside, the central focus of Baptists on baptism, which is pretty hard to deny, would probably lead the vast majority of Baptists lay people (i.e., voters) to look askance at McCain’s status.

    For those of you who don’t really care whether McCain’s a good Baptist, but are interested in the type of Baptist Church he attends, I can confirm that North Phoenix is indeed affiliated with the SBC. It’s listed on the web page of the SBC-affiliated Arizona Baptist Association.

    Ed Kilgore
    http://www.thedemocraticstrategist.org

  • >Is this that John fool?? He talked about chronic fatigue.
    I can’t definitely connect them other than they’re both on SBC DSL Ip addresses that aren’t very close numerically. It’s possible that maybe one Ip is office and the other is home. Dunno.

    Roger

  • Back in the 60’s and 70’s most national Republican politicians were affiliated with the Episcopal church. And for the most part it still is a more liberal mainline protestant church. I can’t find a link right now, but about the same time the “Moral Majority” came into it’s own a lot of them went into the mainlines to take control from the inside and make some of the churches more conservative. And it’s worked pretty well, from there point of view. This is about the same time the Catholic Church was getting more conservative and getting rid of priests, bishops and nuns, especially in S America who were considered too liberal. that’s about the same time I quit practicing any faith.

    How long has he been married to his very rich 2nd wife? And would his religious conversion have anything to do with her or her father’s religious beliefs? Or does it have to do with his children going there?

    I know plent of people who do not practice the same religion they were brought up on some because they truly found a better way for them, and others more for family comity and expediency. And they are usually moved more by the spouse who cares more about their chosen religion.

    I think this is mostly a non-story. But it’s the pandering, stupid!

  • What difference does it make…Just so long as the ministers arn’t anti-America and don’t use words in the pulpit that would merit a mouth washing as Jeremiah Wright has done.
    I’ve never heard Wright’s kind of hate expressed outside the church, much less inside.

  • It makes a boatload of difference, given that John McCain referred to Southern Baptists as hatemongers in the 2000 election. And there certainly are Southern Baptist preacher who hate America first due to abortion, gay marriage, and so on. It’s one thing to express moral outrage. It’s another thing, as Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell did, to claim that 9/11 was the result of God’s punishment for homosexuals and abortions and the ACLU.

  • The reason McCain doesn’t want to talk about about his denominational conversion is that he doesn’t have the foggiest idea what the issues are, or the reasons for the switch, if he made one. Christians who take their faith seriously can articulate the doctrinal and ecclesiastical reasons for their choice of denomination. McCain can’t talk about that because he has never given any serious thought to his faith, either the content of its doctrine or the social and personal implications of it for his life and choices. He just shoots from the hip whatever seems expedient at the moment, because to him, it’s all just a bunch of sissy hooey anyway. Evangelicals sense that about him, and that’s why they don’t like him, and never will.

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