Knowing then what we know now…

Following up on the last item about John McCain’s speech in Denver yesterday, I was also struck by his interest in hindsight.

“Sen. Obama said this week that even knowing what he knows today that he still — still — would have opposed the surge,” said McCain.

As McCain arguments go, this one is relatively straightforward. If there was a question about the merit of the surge policy, and the conventional wisdom is that the policy “worked,” then with the benefit of hindsight, people who opposed the surge in 2007 should realize the error of their ways now.

It’s an interesting argument from someone who looks back at 2002, and thinks he was right all along.

In an interview with reporters on the back of his campaign bus, the “Straight Talk Express” Monday afternoon, McCain said that even in retrospect he would still have voted to authorize the war, as he did in 2002.

“I think there’s no question,” said the Republican’s likely presidential nominee. “I owe too much to these young people who are serving there to let political considerations interfere with what I know is right.

Now, the war has been a disaster. It’s undermined U.S. interests in any number of ways — it’s cost us dearly in blood and treasure; it’s weakened our standing in the world; it’s stretched our military to the breaking point; it’s inflamed anti-American passions throughout the Middle East; it’s made al Qaeda’s recruiting easier; etc. No rational person should look at the war and think, “Yeah, that was the decision.”

And yet, even with the benefit of hindsight, and knowing exactly how big a fiasco this war has been, McCain still thinks he made the right call.

McCain looks at Obama and says, “With hindsight, how could you not support the surge?” And the rest of us look at McCain and say, “With hindsight, how could you still support the war?”

This came up briefly in McCain’s CNN interview yesterday:

BLITZER: But he says that when it comes to judgment, back in 2002 and 2003, early 2003, before the war, he made the right call in opposing the war to begin with, and he says you blundered, you made the wrong call in supporting going to war against Saddam Hussein.

MCCAIN: I would be more than happy to go through all of that again, and historians will. The fact is that Saddam Hussein was bent on the development of weapons of mass destruction, and I’ll be glad to discuss that. The fact is, what did we do at a critical time when we were about to lose the war?

Got that? If you’re concerned about Iraq, you should pay attention to decisions made in 2007, not 2002. We should care about the past, but only the parts of the past that are convenient to John McCain. Judgment about the surge should matter to voters; judgment about the war should matter to “historians.”

It reminds me of a bit Stephen Colbert did in April, when McCain tried to explain why his experience is his strength, just so long as we don’t look to closely at McCain’s experiences.

“[W]hen you question his record he says this: ‘I want to make it very clear this is not about excisions that were made — decisions that were made in the past.’ Now, decisions that were made in the past is how people without experience define experience. So how can McCain claim to be more qualified of a candidate because of his experience yet also claim that any history of bad decisions is irrelevant? Easy. Experience. You see, he is experienced enough to know that some experience is relevant, like the fact that he has experience. While other experience, like his previous experiences, are irrelevant.”

It’s now obvious why McSame de-coupled the surge from history’s calender. When he voted to authorize the war, he was really voting for the surge.

  • In case John McCain has forgotten, the voters ARE the historians. They examine the past, determine whether they want the past to become the future, and they produce an historical record—every time they cast a ballot, or donate to a campaign, or put a sign in their yard or a sticker on their bumper or a button on their collar.

    Voters MAKE history; all McCain wants to do is thwart it….

  • The senators who voted against the war resolution had 20/20 foresight. Looking back at their speeches reveals that they accurately predicted the outcome of the war. They used their experience in the right way and did not fall prey to the group think that prevailed among the dead heads going with the Bush/Cheney party line or among the democrats who were rolled into supporting the resolution to maintain their political viability.

  • Even the NIE said Sadam did NOT pose an imminent threat and McCain ignores the lies that made us invade a country that was not only not an imminent threat but had nothing to do with 9/11. We didn’t invade Israel who has WMD’s or China etc. But even after that mistake which McCain supported, there came the totally preventable insurgency…why? Because Bremmer fired and dismantled the Iraq army…and made unemployment rampant in Iraq so American contractors could come in and profiteer to maximum…McCain supported that incompetent decision also.

    Worst of all, rather than rehire the Iraq army (the Sunnis) when putting them back to work in the Great Sunni Awakening drove violence down immediately, and let Iraq contractors rebuild with our financing putting Iraqis back to work Bush implements troop escalation which got over 2000 US soldiers killed. A tragic mistake when there was absolutely another way to avoid this tragedy altogether…McCain supported this all the way too.

    Now McCain says he’s willing to do it all over again and American casualties are sacrifices he’s willing to make. Why would anyone, knowing what we know now, not support the surge(escalation). Because there was always a better way and most of us care about American lives as more than just sacrifices.

    McCain …wrong on everything…and an asshole to boot. No wonder he was in a plane during war time…If he’d been on the ground leading troops, his own men would have shot him.

  • Now, the war has been a disaster. It’s undermined U.S. interests in any number of ways — it’s cost us dearly in blood and treasure; it’s weakened our standing in the world; it’s stretched our military to the breaking point; it’s inflamed anti-American passions throughout the Middle East; it’s made al Qaeda’s recruiting easier; etc. No rational person should look at the war and think, “Yeah, that was the decision.”

    Most of us here agree, and most of Americans agree when asked. However, compared to economic issues, how much will this election be a referendum on the war? I know it’s what McCain is emphasizing now but how much will it matter in November? I’m starting to wonder.

  • This argument basically comes to to: It may have been unjustified to have invaded Iraq, however, our
    continuing occupation of Iraq IS justified. Al Sharpton brought this fallacy up in the ’04 election
    and was summarily swept aside to make room for the Democratic Congress to keep funding the fallacy. So McCain is actually more in step with the people’s representatives than they would care to acknowledge.

  • This is of a piece with the thread preceding it. Doing something stupid and then standing behind it is known among Republicans as principled consistency.

  • Paul…comment 7… the voters elected the democratic congress to end the war and government corruption and they have failed miserably to keep their promises to do just that. This dem congress does not represent the American voter who according to the polls still want us out of Iraq.

    It is the “Money Party” that controls the leadership and they are made up of both dems and repubs. Here’s a piece: (It’s a slow Sat so enjoy)

    from Michael Collins..”the money party”
    “One percent of Americans hold 33% of the nation’s wealth. The top 10% hold 72% of the total wealth. The bottom 40% of Americans control only 0.3% (three tenths of one percent).

    In every campaign for major office, the party passes out money and buys candidates from both parties. Thanks to the candidates who get elected, this pay to play system remains perfectly legal. Those elected get luxury trips, sweet jobs for family members, and more campaign contributions for the next round of elections. What they do is perfectly legal even though it looks like bribery.
    In return for contributions, the election winners come through by fixing the laws so that The Money Party cleans up. Lower taxes, highly favorable business regulations, laws that shield their businesses from real competition all start with the nonstop flow of Money Party funds. Cost is no object, because in the end it’s all paid for with our tax dollars.
    The Money Party gets no-bid contracts as well as the ability to lay off their employees and dump their pension plans just about any time they want. It doesn’t get much better than that. It’s welfare for big money and survival of the fittest for the rest of us.
    We are nothing to them.
    When the White House and Congress ignore the health care crisis year after year, why be surprised? They’re not in office to serve you. The drug companies and hospitals had their bid in first.
    When our public servants fail to get us out of Iraq, don’t take it personally. That will happen when The Money Party says so.
    When citizens suffer and starve for days after a hurricane, we’re told they should have been better prepared. When levees and bridges collapse, it’s an act of God. But when the fat no-bid contracts show up, The Money Party takes it all.
    Unreliable election systems, citizens excluded from the vote on the basis of race and class, and questionable results don’t matter as long as the right candidates get in. We pretend to vote, they pretend to get elected, but there’s no doubt who is in charge – The Money Party.
    It’s nothing personal. The party is just doing its job. Why be surprised or disappointed? It’s been happening for centuries. The more some have, the more they want, the harder they fight to keep it. Spread some around so they can get even more. It’s a rigged game from top to bottom.
    We let this happen. We can change it. The first step is to name it, and we just did….”

  • “In case John McCain has forgotten, the voters ARE the historians. They examine the past, determine whether they want the past to become the future, and they produce an historical record—every time they cast a ballot, or donate to a campaign, or put a sign in their yard or a sticker on their bumper or a button on their collar.”

    Unfortunately, I think that that is wishful thinking. If voters paid attention to history, McCain’s campaign would be over. The sad thing is that people like us who follow politics closely are a minority. Most people don’t even bother with the political theater on cable news – they just hear the occasional sound bite about how McCain has military experience or read an e-mail claiming Obama is a Muslim, and they take that to the polls.

    The scariest thing about the way McCain constantly rewrites history is not that he does it, that is really to be expected. The scary thing is how readily the public buy into the revisionist history and verbal gymnastics of the campaign

  • Smiley: “War” is one of those “transcendent issues” that McSame says he’s down 100% with Bush on; I have no frakkin’ idea what McSame means by “transcendent,” but having been in a War myself, it will always be an issue that stands on its own (and above our nation’s transient economic woes) as a moral depredation of our nation’s principles, our passion to make the world a better place; there is a better way than War almost ALL of the time. Only a leader dedicated to waging peace should get the American people’s vote and support. That’s never going to be McSame.

    All his colossal bullshit about “I know how to win wars” and “I will catch Obama bin Laden” came from what?? Being shot down napalming civilians? Being a POW for 5 years?? Being pased over for admiral by the Navy? Being a Republican toad for 25 years??

    And what fucked-up logic. He would make the same mistakes over again because too many Americans have sacrificed their lives? So sacrifice them AGAIN! Sigh.

    Bottom line: If we still don’t outnumber “teh stupid” Americans who, after 8 years of clusterphuque Republican/corporate/oil “leadership,” can still be convinced through fear to vote them back in control of our government, then we had better brace ourselves for a time of extended planetary tribulation to rival anything ever seen since we began walking upright.

  • If voters paid attention to history, McCain’s campaign would be over. The sad thing is that people like us who follow politics closely are a minority.

    Then it becomes our responsibility—yours and mine, Rabi—to educate the voters, and turn that minority into an unconquerable majority.

  • JoeW, brilliant! in general, can mccain explain what the surge accomplished with respect to american national security for the american blood and treasure expended on it? i’d really like to hear what it is that he thinks the surge has done for us….

  • If the reduction in violence is attributable to the surge, should Obama cast out concerns about WHERE the surge troops came from? Did the surge weaken the efforts in Afghanistan sufficiently to cause the area to flare up again?

    McCain is making this decision out to be a no-brainer, given hindsight. It really isn’t.

    How much of the benefit to Iraq would have occurred anyway if only the Awakening and unfortunately completed ethnic cleansing had taken place? Most of it? All of it? A little?
    How much better might Afghanistan’s stability be if we hadn’t drained resources from it?

    Acknowledge the good, but we needn’t think the decision made was the best one, and not necessarily even good.

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