Lieberman, Britain, and FISA … oh my

Hmm, what was the most disturbing part of Joe Lieberman’s appearance on ABC’s “This Week” this morning? It’s a surprisingly tough call.

Was it Lieberman’s reality-be-damned insistence that “the surge is working”? That was certainly disconcerting. Was it Lieberman’s assertion that leading Democrats are weak because they reject a neocon vision of foreign policy? That wasn’t much better.

But the real gem of the morning was Lieberman’s bizarre argument that terrorism in Britain should mean more warrantless domestic surveillance here. (ThinkProgress has a clip.)

“I hope that these terrorist acts in London and England wake us up here in America to stop some of the petty, partisan fighting that’s going on about…electronic surveillance, a lot of which could help stop terrorist attacks against the United States. Some of the fight is ideological. Some of it is just plan mistrust of the administration.

“I hope this week, based on what happened in the United Kingdom, President Bush, the bipartisan leadership of Congress will sit down and say, ‘Hey, let’s cut out the nonsense. We’re fiddling while our enemies are getting ready to attack us. Let’s figure out how to pass a law to modernize this electronic surveillance capacity which was critical.’ […]

“I’m talking about…the so-called FISA, the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act that was adopted in the ’70s. Technology has — both that used by the enemy, the terrorists, and that used by us has improved dramatically. And right now, we’re at a partisan gridlock over the question of whether the American government can listen into conversations or follow e-mail trails of non-American citizens.”

There are more than a handful of errors of fact and judgment here, but let’s stick to the two biggest.

First, Lieberman insists FISA is a generation too old. What he neglects to mention is that FISA has been updated many, many times. FISA may have been passed nearly three decades ago, but it’s been amended repeatedly to adapt to evolving threats and circumstances.

Second, Lieberman seems woefully confused about the nature of the debate. The Bush administration has engaged in electronic surveillance of Americans without warrants or oversight. Congress has requested information about how the program operates, which the administration has refused to provide. To hear Lieberman tell it, there’s a controversy about whether to spy on terrorist suspects. That’s demonstrably false, and the senator surely knows better.

Lieberman wants to “cut out the nonsense.” Good idea. The White House has apparently operated under the impression that FISA is inconvenient, and therefore irrelevant. As Sen. Chuck Hagel (R-Neb.) noted way back in January 2006, “If [Bush] needs more authority, he just can’t unilaterally decide that that 1978 law is out of date and he will be the guardian of America and he will violate that law. He needs to come back, work with us, work with the courts if he has to, and we will do what we need to do to protect the civil liberties of this country and the national security of this country.”

When Lieberman tells a national television audience that the question is over “whether the American government can listen into conversations or follow e-mail trails of non-American citizens,” he’s either intentionally trying to deceive or he’s embarrassingly confused about the issue at hand.

There are more than a handful of errors of fact and judgment here

yes, it was a bushel of blatant bullshit

  • LOL sarabeth.

    Lieberman is a scared little man. He needs his Authoritarian daddy to protect him. Glenn Greenwald had a great take on the Authoritarian Mind in Salon yesterday.

  • he’s either intentionally trying to deceive or he’s embarrassingly confused about the issue at hand.

    don’t shortsell: “or both”

  • He also neglected to mention that the plot was uncovered by firemen (or was it ambulance drivers, can’t remember) who noticed the smoking car. Not exactly sure how he thinks warentless wiretaping would have helped in this situation.

  • He also neglected to mention that the plot was uncovered by firemen (or was it ambulance drivers, can’t remember) who noticed the smoking car. Not exactly sure how he thinks warentless wiretaping would have helped in this situation.

    Exactly right. Could there be any other reason that people want to be able to surveille anyone at any time, though? Like to advance a domestic political agenda unrelated to combatting terrorism?

    Conservatives, read these two sentences:

    To hear Lieberman tell it, there’s a controversy about whether to spy on terrorist suspects. That’s demonstrably false, and the senator surely knows better.

    For the people who want to use a lot of surveillance for something else, it would be pretty easy to sell a lot of conservatives on the idea of using it, if the conservatives think we’re getting it to combat terrorism.

  • Let’s say you have enforcement ability on steroids- a lot of sureveillance capability, and the law enforcement officers and security agencies don’t have to ask anyone or make any kind of a showing to use any of it.

    Then let’s say you have a Republican president, and a culture of partisan enforcement against Democratic officials at the DoJ- just an unspoken policy. We already had it, as shown by the attorney purge scandal, except the policy wasn’t quite kept mum.

    Then, you start catching all the Democrats for any laws they break. Or at least, that’s the fantasy, for some of the Republicans. The reality, as we’ve seen (and because the Democrats aren’t that bad) is partisan gathering of evidence against one side of the aisle, resulting in specious claims that have to be dropped, but still hurting the liberal party electorally and in their public image.

    Then, you get on a highway to that permanent Republican majority and death of the Democratic party the Republican have been talking about and been lusting after for a long time real quick.

    Totalitarian dictatorships have this kind of total police power. It gives them options.

  • clueless jjoe: “You might say that, in Iraq, we’ve got the enemy on the run, but for some reason, in Washington, a lot of politicians are on the run to order a retreat by our troops even as they are beginning to succeed,”

    never mind how delusional he is. that isn’t news, but “for some reason”?

    no i can’t figure out why in the world would people want to withdraw. what is the possible upside? how would withdrawing make a single soldier safer? what possible benefit could it be to our troops to not be one of 100 dead americans every month? what’s everyone’s problem? how is all this blood not an inherently good thing? bringing our trooops out of iraq will just enable al qaeda to set jeeps on fire in front of the glashgow airport! [/lieberman]

    what a piece of dreck.

  • Actually, Joe is right and FISA is such a ridiculous joke that even Jimmy Carter, whose feckless administration pushed this monstrosity into law, later rescinded his support for FISA just as ALL US POTUSes have afterwards.

    Always fun to visit the loon mosh pits to see the latest brand of rave medicine being propagated. Y’all are a bundle of received opinions and fixed ideas.

    Like yourselves, none of them make sense or are true or honest.

  • dave, bush amended fisa, as other presidents have. then he ignored it. you bootlickers sure do love authority, don’tcha?

  • I like daveinboca’s style (#8). The first thing I normally do when I walk into a room is insult the people in it, too. It’s real conversation starter.

    As for the Lieberweiner, he’s so overcome with fear I’m amazed he can get himself out of bed in the morning. Come to think of it, it’s remarkable daveinboca was able to click out from under his “security” blanket.

  • My reaction to Lieberman’s spiel: What a piece of shit he is.

    Hopefully, after 2008 he will be forced to come out of the closet as the boot-lickin’ Republican that he is. Can Chuck Schumer really continue to defend this neo-con bastard?

  • He also neglected to mention that the plot was uncovered by firemen (or was it ambulance drivers, can’t remember) who noticed the smoking car. Not exactly sure how he thinks warentless wiretaping would have helped in this situation.

    Comment by CNR

    LOL. Terrorist in email: “I’ll be driving the inconspicuous smoking SUV.”

  • Hey, who else would like to see open threads on this blog on Sat & Sun?. I would like them so I could respond to CB’s TPM posts since they don’t take comments over there.

    Plus there is such a dearth of opportunity to discuss Paris Hilton. 🙂

  • daveinboca****just throw FISA out there with Jimmy Carter as if they relate….you name dropper.
    Every month or so we get Jerusalem Joe on the TV spouting something to get face time and attention. Everytime, he just makes stuff up to support his opinion. He is always wrong. He is always sucking up to the Administration. He is always predictable. He either doesn’t have enough sense to keep his mouth shut or has such an incredible ego that he thinks his opinions are more valid than most Americans. He probably doesn’t even know that he will never be re-elected.
    The real question is why do they keep putting him on TV. He’s a pathetic nothing yet every month here he comes.
    Jerusalem Joe has got to go.

    He would prefer to have himself and his life on TV 24 hrs/d so he could say, “see, if you have nothing to hide then this shouldn’t matter”. Hell, he can’t even present a transparent argument. It’s always filled with mis-information…Always. He couldn’t even tell you what is stated in the updated FISA laws. Soon there will be a day when his authoritarian trite will not be spewing over the air waves on Sundays and he will come to accept what he really is…irrelevant.

  • Roger that, daveinboca. These lieberals don’t know anymore what they’re talking about than they do about hush puppies, baby tuckoos, or a pile of grits.

    Over and out.

  • Jimmy Carter, whose feckless administration pushed this monstrosity into law, later rescinded his support for FISA just as ALL US POTUSes have afterwards.
    daveinboca ,This is news to me. Perhaps you could further enlighten us with links. I’ve just tried to find them on my own and couldn’t. The closest thing I could find were the discredited stories about Carter and Clinton violating FISA too. This story was initially “published” by that bastion of independent thinking Matt Drudge and then, no doubt, after careful consideration and verification of the facts passed from one rightwing site to the next.

  • DaveinBoca was over at No Quarter last night, and brought other reichwing trolls with him, Larry Johnson smacked him down.

    The thind I want to know is why does the MSM constantly have someone who was sooooooooooo wrong about soooooooo many things on a Sunday talking heads show? Seriously, Joe will never still the tripe spewing from his fervid brain, but need we be subjected to his ravenings?

    And yay on the talking thread. You guys are usually some of the smartest posters on all the interwebs 🙂

  • Lieberman and Coulter have a lot in common. They consistently escalate their rhetoric to get attention.

    What I find so interesting is that all the polls state fairly clearly that the populace is moving toward the Democrats, yet Lieberman is endearing himself with the Republicans, alienating the party which will increase in power in the next election. For a politician, that’s a death wish. Or enormous stupidity.

  • Jerusalem Joe is part of the Iraq mis-information express pushing administration talking points without any concern at all of the tragic realities of their lies which try to remove our personal freedoms and ignore the deaths their lies cover up. This from an article over at Salon from Glenn Greenwald:

    “According to local witnesses, then — none of whom were interviewed by the media outlets obediently reciting the U.S. military’s dramatic narrative about “17 Al Qaeda fighters killed” — those who were killed by the U.S. strikes had absolutely nothing to do with “Al Qaeda,” but instead were guarding their own villages against the very Sunni insurgents whom we now call “Al Qaeda.”

    The entirety of the screaming headlines on June 22 about the Glorious Military Victory which Killed Al Qaeda was based exclusively on this Press Release issued by the U.S. military (specifically, the Public Affairs Office of “Camp Victory”) — entitled “Coalition Forces kill 17 al-Qaeda gunmen near Khalis” — and read as follows:

    “Coalition Forces attack helicopters engaged and killed 17 al-Qaeda gunmen southwest of Khalis, Friday.

    “Iraqi police were conducting security operations in and around the village when Coalition attack helicopters from the 25th Combat Aviation Brigade and ground forces from 3rd Brigade Combat Team, 1st Cavalry Division, observed more than 15 armed men attempting to circumvent the IPs and infiltrate the village.

    “The attack helicopters, armed with missiles, engaged and killed 17 al-Qaeda gunmen and destroyed the vehicle they were using.”

    That Press Release, with no investigation or modification, immediately became the headlines and lead paragraphs of every major American media outlet. Our news organizations, which claim to have learned so many valuable lessons from their profound failures in the run-up to the Iraq war, “reported” on this incident by doing one thing and one thing only: reading the Press Release and then copying it down and reporting it as Truth….”
    Go take a look. Just like Lieberman makes it up to support his opinions and the reporters are too lame to call him on it, the same is true of the press being good little mouth pieces for administration spin and not even investigating if the reports issued to them are even true.

    Just give Lieberman his 5min propaganda pitch and then announce, “Brought to you by the Bush administratiion”. This is just what it is and the press keeps allowing it which is why no one believes the MSM anymore. He lies and they don’t even bother to question him on it .

  • Technology used by the enemy has been dramatically improved? How so, pray? The airliner has been around for a long, long time, and the suggestion it might be driven into a building is not new, either. Artillery shells wired together and concealed in the roadbed is hardly cutting-edge technology – making them into shaped charges and varying their means of detonation is simply tactical evolution that keeps them relevant, rather than a Eureka Moment in technology. The car bomb has been around just about as long as the car.

    Holy Joe, like others of his ilk, retains a blind faith in technology that is childlike if not touching. None of the rough boys over in Baghdad is calling the United States, or exchanging emails with Americans to order a gross of cellphones to be used as detonators. Similarly, stopping such a sale would not be a significant victory that would suddenly make the occupation straighten up and fly right. Snooping on one’s own citizens of choice, at the government’s discretion or overseen by toady yes-men, has no measurable effect except to increase the government’s power over its own citizens. Anybody think this government needs more power over its own citizens?

    Hey, all you out there in loopy-land, show me one instance in which domestic snooping in America has influenced the course of events in a positive way in Iraq.

  • i checked through 22 comments just to be sure that no one else had said this: the most disturbing thing about lieberman today is that he was invited on in the first place. the actual idiocy and bullshit that he spewed is typical for the man, but no one forces the sunday shows to invite him and not (for example) russ feingold.

    as for the moronic daveinboca, here’s the issue phrased in terms that even an idiot can understand: the problem is that the bush administration is both violating fisa and refusing to even make a case about how to revise FISA.

    period, end of story.

    was that so hard to comprehend?

  • Always fun to visit the loon mosh pits to see the latest brand of rave medicine being propagated. Y’all are a bundle of received opinions and fixed ideas. — daveinboca, @8

    Projection, anyone? Have a reverse mirror, will travel?

  • Remember folks, Lieberman is the Senator from Israel. He is carrying the water for the right wing Israeli administration which is why he wants a war with Iran. Of course anyone making this suggestion to him would be labled “Anti-Semitic” even if the critic is, as many are, Jewish. I cannot fathom how the people of New Jersey tolerate this transparent fool. He could be recalled, I believe. Or maybe not. Anybody know for sure?

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