Lieberman historical analogies run amuck

Looking back over the last couple of years, the president and his allies have struggled mightily to draw a helpful historical comparison between Iraq and other major military campaigns. At different times, the Bush gang has referenced Korea, the Revolutionary War, WWI, and the Civil War. By mid-2005, the president had settled on World War II as a personal favorite.

I mention this because Joe Lieberman, at the American Enterprise Institute today with John McCain to talk about their delusional support for the war in Iraq, launched into what Paul Kiel described as “a death-defying string of historical analogies.” Perhaps you can make sense of it:

“There are people who have spoken of this moment in history as if it were the 30’s, and there are some parallels, I fear, there. People say the war in Iraq is comparable to the Spanish Civil War, and the war in Iraq, to the larger war against Islamist terrorism, comparable to the Spanish Civil War, to the Second World War, the late 30’s and the failure to grasp the growing threat of fascism in Europe until it was almost too late. The painful irony of this moment in our history, is that while in some senses it is comparable to the 1930’s, it’s also already 1942. Because Pearl Harbor [9/11], in this war, has already happened.”

I never got that neocon decoder ring I ordered in the mail, so maybe someone can translate this one for me?

I suppose the point is that Iraq and WWII are somehow similar, except for the fact that Iraq didn’t attack the United States, there were no civil wars in Germany or Japan, Saddam was not poised to take over a continent, the allied powers were a massive international cooperating force, and FDR didn’t launch a war under false pretenses.

It’s an oldie, but Slate’s Fred Kaplan took on the WWII comparison in a fine piece in August 2005.

Accept for a moment the argument that Iraq is but one theater in a global war on terrorism. Overlook that, to the degree this is true, it’s because Bush’s invasion of Iraq — and his many miscalculations afterward — helped make it so. Even so, it would be an enormous leap to claim that the war in Iraq — or the broader war on terror — is the political, strategic, or moral equivalent of World War II.

Al-Qaida or its sundry offshoots could crash many more airplanes, wreck many more buildings, and bomb many more subways—and the magnitude of their power, and the urgency of their threat, would still fall far short of that posed by Nazi Germany. The panzers of the Wehrmacht rolled across the plains of Europe, toppling governments with ease, imposing totalitarian regimes, and killing millions in their wake. This was a war of civilization on a level that today’s war — however you might define it — doesn’t begin to approach.

But let’s say that the two wars — World War II and Iraq (or the broader war on terrorism) — are comparable, that their stakes are even remotely as high. Then why is President Bush fighting this war so tentatively?

From December 1941 to August 1945 — the attack on Pearl Harbor until the declaration of Allied victory — the United States manufactured 88,430 tanks and 274,941 combat aircraft. Yet in the two years after the invasion of Iraq, much less the four years since the attack on the World Trade Center, the Bush administration has not built enough armor platings to protect our soldiers’ jeeps from roadside bombs.

To fund World War II, the United States drastically expanded and raised taxes. (At the start of the war, just 4 million Americans had to pay income tax; by its end, 43 million did.) Beyond that, 85 million Americans — half the population at the time — answered the call to buy War Bonds, $185 billion worth. Food was rationed, scrap metal was donated, the entire country was on a war footing. By contrast, President Bush has asked the citizenry for no sacrifice, no campaigns of national purpose, to fight or fund the wars in Iraq or Afghanistan. In fact, he has proudly cut taxes, heaving the hundreds of billions of dollars in war costs on top of the already swelling national debt.

If this war’s stakes are comparable to World War II’s, the entire nation should be enlisted in its cause — not necessarily to fight in it, but at least to pay for it. And if President Bush is not willing to call for some sort of national sacrifice, he cannot expect anyone to believe the stakes are really high.

Of course, there’s the one obvious historical parallel that Lieberman overlooked and Bush doesn’t want to talk about. I can’t imagine why.

Basically, we’re going backwards in time.

  • I believe what Leiberman’s trying to say is that Iraq is but a mere blip, like the Spanish American War, in comparison to the worldwide clusterfuck that will emerge in the near future that will engulf the entire Middle East, China, Russia, and a few others. A clash of Civilizations to end all others, if you will. If only we had fought the Spanish American War with more commitment, it might have been avoided!

    Nevermind that the Spanish American War was built on lies and Yellow Journalism, resulting in us becoming exactly the barbarians we had come to rid the island of. If there’s a connection, perhaps WWII could have been avoided if SA had never been fought?

  • Well imagine that it’s the late 1940’s, we beat all the uniformed Nazis. But since then, the country has been completely nuts, we’ve been occupying it for three years, and we’ve been taking regular casualties all throughout the occupation, without a definite sign that things are getting better.

    That’s where we are now. People wouldn’t have wanted us to stay in Germany back then under those conditions.

  • The Spanish – American War seems as good as any anology to me to use if you have to.

    (1) The Spanish did not start the war; (2) we were bogged down fighting an, in part islamist, insurgency in the Philippines for over a decade losing over 3000 soldiers; and (3) we occupied the Philippines to some extent for several decades afterwards.

    Not perfect, but it is more on the spot that the American Civil War.

  • I mean, imagine we’d been occupying Germany for three years after we defeated them and the country was the same way Iraq’s been since we defeated the organized Iraqi (Saddam’s) army and began the occupation.

  • One thing Obermann did skip was the tragic mass murder and displacements in South Vietnam after the North came in. I don’t know if something similar will happen in Iraq, but I don’t think there’s any way to prevent big trouble in Iraq when we leave. If negotiations had started way back then maybe it wouldn’t have had to happen.

  • Sounds like Lieberman is experiencing some sort of Boolean error in his programing. Note to War Pigs: STOP TRYING TO GILD THAT TURD.

    As for this being any thing like WWII. Yeah. Right. The President of the United States invaded a country for no reason, craps on the bill of rights, hauls people off to detention at his pleasure, shrugs at things like Abu Gharib and we’re still the “good guys” in WWII – The Sequel? Sure.

  • Lieberman’s comments were about the Spanish Civil War, not the Spanish American War.

    So many wars, so little time!

    Of course Lieberman, Bush, McCain and the rest want to invoke World War II. Every war fought by this country since World War II (including the V-word) has been an attempt by our leaders to recreate the glory of World War II. They all want a little of that hallowed glory to brush off on them.

    Whenever a nation builds up its military resources during a major conflict, it’s left wondering what to do with all those resources when it wins the conflict, and the fighting is over. What to do with all those guys who have been trained to kill? What to do about keeping that lucrative money-flow to the captains of industry? The (American) Civil War vets were sent out West, where they exterminated the Indians. And the military-industrial complex we created in World War II is still trying to justify its existence…by trying to fight more World War IIs. Certainly, there are more than enough xenophobes, wingnuts, and assorted politicians willing to go along with that.

  • Iraq is the Invasion of Grenada gone bad. Reagon knew how to pick his battles. Bush thought he had a pushover too. I think the suicide bomb has had more effect than the 5000 pound bunker busters.

  • Brilliant, CB. And (Dale, #9) Bush did have a pushover. We achieved “Mission Accomplished” with just 139 US fatalities.

    If Bush weren’t hell bent to fuck up everything he ever touches, invading a nation badly beaten by Bush 43 and held in check by Clinton ever since should have been enough. But Shrub and the rest of the Bush Crime Family have no sense of proportion, as he’s about to prove all over again with increased cost in life, limb, sanity and treasure.

    I can’t think of any proper analogy for the war (except maybe Vietnam), but Caligula comes to mind when I think of George Walker Bush. I wish we had an equivalent of the Praetorian Guard.

  • To extrapolate Joe’s analogy, the Sunnis must then be the Jews of this conflict, as the despised minority suffering brazen murder and being driven from their homes, and Abu Ghraib is its Auschwitz. We must do everything in our power to prevent the murder and torture of these people by the hated ….. oh, I guess, we’re the Nazis in this case. Somebody tell Joe to get another analogy.

  • to compare a Pre-emptive war (Iraq war) to a defencive war (WWII) is like comparing apples and oranges..The Metrics between the two are vastly different..I suppose when some attempt to make a comparison between the two it is because there exsists no historical Precedent for any Pre-emptive war like the Iraq war in which to gauge the Iraq war…By me saying this does not mean I support Pre-emptive wars especially Pre-emptive wars based on Bogus Intel. and misleading Info. such as the Iraq war..I beleive as do all Patroit American’s do that war should always be a last resort…Those leaders who support Pre-emptive wars I believe have Ulterior motives other then what they state their reasons for their support really is…Why else would any Patroit leader attempt to gauge or compare something that has no Precedent??

  • Oh, Spanish CIVIL War. My bad. The point is, WWIII could be avoided if we’d just be nice to Bush and let him run out the clock so he can slip out of office with his reputation intact. I just hope President Clark can live with himself if things deteriorate after that…

  • Lieberphlegm is sticking to the playbook from his other loyalty (assuming he has loyalty to the US too). Prior to the “Stop talking about Iran” policy, the comparison between WWII and the Israel-Iran confrontation was used to advocate “anything less than attacking Iran is appeasement” by saying that Ahmadinejad is a present day “Hitler”. The comparison was also used to justify killing civilians by comparing it to killing civilians during bombing raids over Germany and Japan in WWII.

  • The point I failed to make in my rant is that we are talking about Iraq and Lieberphlegm is talking about Iran.

  • I think what Lieberman was trying to say was the same as Melvin Laird wrote:

    Just as the spread of communism was very real in the 1960s, so the spread of radical fundamentalist Islam is very real today. It was a creeping fear until September 11, 2001, when it showed itself capable of threatening us. Iraq was a logical place to fight back, with its secular government and modern infrastructure and a populace that was ready to overthrow its dictator. Our troops are not fighting there only to preserve the right of Iraqis to vote. They are fighting to preserve modern culture, Western democracy, the global economy, and all else that is threatened by the spread of barbarism in the name of religion. That is the message and the mission. It is not politically correct, nor is it comforting. But it is the truth, and sometimes the truth needs good marketing.

    IF there is any accuracy in what they say, Bush is dealing with in just the wrong way.

  • I’m afraid that we’re actually in August 1914, with a lot of regional powers maneuvering to get involved in a local war, with shifting alliances and counter-alliances and secret treaties that could lead to a larger war.

  • Why is it that Americans can only see things through the prism of their own history? It’s always Vietnam/WWII/Civil War/US Revolution.

    How about Athens’ Syracuse expedition? Or Napoleon’s invasion of Russia? Or Crassus’ invasion of Parthia which ended in his death? There are so many other better parallels that people don’t even know about.

  • “One thing Obermann did skip was the tragic mass murder and displacements in South Vietnam after the North came in. I don’t know if something similar will happen in Iraq, but I don’t think there’s any way to prevent big trouble in Iraq when we leave. If negotiations had started way back then maybe it wouldn’t have had to happen.” – Dale

    Oh, I imagine that there are Iraqis sharpening their knives to deal with collaberators right now. Sad to say, BG2’s policies mean that the only way an Iraqi can survive in Iraq is to be seen actively trying to kill Americans.

    “To extrapolate Joe’s analogy, the Sunnis must then be the Jews of this conflict, as the despised minority suffering brazen murder and being driven from their homes, and Abu Ghraib is its Auschwitz. We must do everything in our power to prevent the murder and torture of these people by the hated ….. oh, I guess, we’re the Nazis in this case. Somebody tell Joe to get another analogy.” – petorado

    Brrr! No, Joe is saying that we have to stop Islamic Extremism in Iraq before it spreads to a regional conflict everywhere. I suppose. He does come across like an idiot.

    “Lieberphlegm is sticking to the playbook from his other loyalty (assuming he has loyalty to the US too). Prior to the “Stop talking about Iran” policy, the comparison between WWII and the Israel-Iran confrontation was used to advocate “anything less than attacking Iran is appeasement” by saying that Ahmadinejad is a present day “Hitler”. The comparison was also used to justify killing civilians by comparing it to killing civilians during bombing raids over Germany and Japan in WWII.” – TKO

    That’s about right. There is a chorus which BG2 doubtlessly listens to screaming for an attack on Iran before 2009.

  • People say the war in Iraq is comparable to the Spanish Civil War, — Lieberman

    They do? Who are those people? And where are their brains? The Spanish Civil war did not because a foreign invader destroyed all semblance of order and allowed the age-old animus to surface.

  • So, Joltin’ Joe says a war in which one side was supported by actual fascists and the other was supported by our enemies the Communists, which we wisely chose to sit out, is comparable to Iraq? Where we not only aren’t sitting it out, but started the ruckus in the first place? I mean, sure, it’s a war where atrocities are being committed on both sides, but I don’t get the parallel.

    Surely he isn’t falling into the historical simplification that the Spanish Civil War was a warm-up for WWII, and we should have gotten involved then, to stop the fascists early? So, by ignoring the war against actual terrorists to go start a civil war somewhere else, we’re “gettting in early” against the Islamofascists? Wait, it’s Joltin’ Joe, I bet that’s exactly what he’s saying. Idiot.

    Someone should let him know that, in the words of Chevy Chase, Francisco Franco is still dead.

  • Didn’t Saint Ronnie Reagan claim that history had shown those who fought to preserve the Spanish Republic fought on the wrong side?

  • Make no mistake, the Iraq war is a disaster

    A disaster from day one.

    The only question now, is how much will it cost

    Those that lost a loved one, or a serviceman who lost a limb, already have their answer – the rest of us are still calculating

    The responsibility to declare war, is given to congress, and congrerss alone via the constitution from our founding fathers

    yet, this power was transfered to a known drunk driver, G Bush

    Who gave the keys of war, a change of policy to first strike, delegated to an extreme concentration of power to an unworthy ‘decider’ G Bush?

    Well, one of the co-sponsors of the Iraq war resolution, was none other than John Edwards – he of course, voted for it also

    Now, he tells us he admits it was a mistake

    Think about it – if YOU gave your keys to a drunk driver 10 years ago in north carolina, and many people got killed and injured, and you admitted you made a mistake

    would john edwards have advocated you get a big promotion?

    or would he have taken you to the cleaners?

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