Mark Penn steps on Clinton campaign’s talking points again

A few days ago, Clinton strategist/pollster Mark Penn raised a few eyebrows when he argued that Barack Obama’s primary and caucus victories weren’t especially impressive, because he “hasn’t won any of the significant states.”

Yesterday, Penn kept it up, with a related point.

“Winning Democratic primaries is not a qualification or a sign of who can win the general election. If it were, every nominee would win because every nominee wins Democratic primaries.”

Now, on this one, I think I see Penn’s point. Obama has done well in several “red” states, but that doesn’t mean Obama should expect to win those same states in November, if he’s the nominee. Fair enough.

The problem, however, is that the Clinton campaign was arguing the exact opposite at almost the exact same time.

I’m on a conference call with Clinton operative Harold Ickes, in which he’s floating a new-ish argument about why Hillary would be the stronger Democratic noimnee (this was in the context of the decision facing superdelegates): Hillary has won key general-election swing states like Nevada, New Mexico, Arizona, and Arkansas, while Obama’s won a lot of states Democrats will have zero chance of carrying in November, like Nebraska, Kansas, and Idaho.

Hmmm. If we’re now talking about potential general-election swing states, it seems pretty clear that Obama’s won as many as, if not more than, Hillary: Colorado, Virginia, Minnesota, Iowa, and Missouri all come to mind. Moreover, with the exception of Missouri, Obama’s winning these states by large — in many cases overwhelming — margins. Finally, does anyone really think Arizona’s going to be a swing state in a race involving John McCain? This seems hard to believe.

So, for top Clinton aide Harold Ickes, primary and caucus victories are a key indicator of general-election performance. For top Clinton aide Mark Penn, primary and caucus victories have absolutely nothing to do with general-election performance.

This isn’t helpful. Do you ever get the sense that Penn sometimes does more harm than good?

And speaking of Ickes, he’ll need to work on this spin, too.

Harold Ickes, a top adviser to Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton’s campaign who voted for Democratic Party rules that stripped Michigan and Florida of their delegates, now is arguing against the very penalty he helped pass.

In a conference call Saturday, the longtime Democratic Party member contended the DNC should reconsider its tough sanctions on the two states, which held early contests in violation of party rules. He said millions of voters in Michigan and Florida would be otherwise disenfranchised — before acknowledging moments later that he had favored the sanctions.

Campaigning in Wisconsin after Ickes’ remarks, Clinton echoed his contention that a suitable arrangement could be worked out to seat the Michigan and Florida delegations.

“The rules provide for a vote at the convention to seat contested delegations,” she said. “This goes back to the 1940s in my memory. There is nothing unusual about this. My husband didn’t wrap up the nomination until June. Usually it takes awhile to sort all this out. That’s why there are rules. If there are contested delegations, the convention votes on it.”

Ickes explained that his different position essentially is due to the different hats he wears as both a DNC member and a Clinton adviser in charge of delegate counting. Clinton won the primary vote in Michigan and Florida, and now she wants those votes to count.

“There’s been no change,” Ickes said. “I was not acting as an agent of Mrs. Clinton. We had promulgated rules and those rules said the timing provision … provides for certain sanctions, automatic sanctions as a matter of fact, if a state such as Michigan or Florida violates those timing provisions.”

“With respect to the stripping, I voted as a member of the Democratic National Committee. Those were our rules and I felt I had an obligation to enforce them,” he said.

I find this a little confusing. Ickes voted to punish Florida and Michigan, but now wants to undo the punishment he supported because now he’s wearing a different “hat.” Asked about the change of heart, Ickes argues, “There’s been no change.”

Odd.

Shorter Clinton/Ickes:

We are going to have our train wreck whether you like it or not. And if you won’t let us have it in November against McCain, we will have it at the Democratic convention.

By hook or crock:
I expect the absolute worst from these people.
They will steal this election if they can.

  • Do you ever get the sense that Penn sometimes does more harm than good?

    Sometimes??????? You’re joking, right?

    Back 30 years ago, there was a guy I knew in politics, a Democrat, who reminds me a lot of Mark Penn. A reall asswipe. One night he went into a bar as his usual Mr. Wonderful self, and met someone who had the same opinion everyone else I knew had of him, only this guy expressed it by kicking his ass. In fact it was a very serious asskicking. Nobody felt sorry for the guy when they heard about it, in fact the general opinion was “finally!”

    How nice it would be if Mr. Penn could walk into the same situation with the same outcome.

  • Ickes – the kind of politician who was for torture before he was against it. Where do I remember this argument from recently???

    The Captain of the ship is responsible for hiring the crew. Ickes, Penn, McAuliffe… what more needs to be said about the Empress?

  • There’s a great article by Michael Gerson of The Plain Dealer (an Ohio paper) that discusses some of the slip ups in Hillary’s campaign and what Hillary has to do to win the nomination. Here are a few excerpts.

    On Hillary being “vetted”:

    “…there is Hillary the Tested. “I’ve been examined one side up and the other side down,” argues Clinton, while Obama has not. Well, it is true that the Clintons have been endlessly vetted – but mainly because their shared career has been an endless string of scandals. It is not enough to be vetted. The goal is to be vetted and found clean.”

    What Hillary has to do the win the nomination:

    “Though it is increasingly unlikely, Clinton may still have a path to the nomination. She merely has to puncture the balloon of Democratic idealism; sully the character of a good man; feed racial tensions within her party; then eke out a win with the support of unelected superdelegates, thwarting the hopes of millions of new voters who would see an inspiring young man defeated by back-room arm-twisting.

    Unlikely – but it would be a fitting contribution to the Clinton legacy of monumental selfishness.”

    Well said, Mr. Gerson. Well said, Mr. Gerson. You can read the rest of the article
    HERE:

  • Perhaps the almost embarrassing incoherence coming out of the Clinton camp these days is not helpful to her chances.

    As one who still likes Hillary quite a lot, this inability of her campaign to project a message that doesn’t inspire ridicule simply moves me more and more firmly into the Obama camp.

    Just sayin.

  • I really want to see Mark Penn(cil-headed twit) cite one example—just one will do—of a presidential candidate who didn’t win the primary contests, didn’t win the nomination, and then won the general election.

    I also keep trying to read through his surface-spin, and gain an insight to his deeper meaning. It almost looks as if Penn is trying to set the stage for Clinton to pull a “Joementum” gambit. I think he’s trying to test the waters for a threat to split the party and go the Indie route—maybe as a back-room method to “scare” the superdelegates to come on over to the Clinton side of the game….

  • I still cannot understand why Hillary hasen’t fired this a** for incomptence. He either is dumb or dumber than any stratigist I have seen in many a years. I really cannot see how talking stupid to the press is a good stratagy. I could understand if everyone were finished voting but there are still 14 or 15 more elections left in the process and pissing of voters is not very good logic.

  • The DNC simply needs to apologize and acknowledge they were dumb and stupid and RESCIND their shenanigan of stripping FL and MI of delegates. There is no change in rescission. Democracy trumps the DNC; democracy trumps the rules; votes trump DNC; votes trump the rules; votes and democracy are fundamental to our way of life. Above all the whining by Obama and the cult of Obama, the people’s votes and democracy stand supreme! Count the votes for FL and MI!

  • It ‘s not especially praiseworthy to say you are good at swatting flies, if you also carry an odor that attracts them.

  • Another Ickes quote:
    http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2008/02/16/671358.aspx

    “Those were the rules, and we thought we had an obligation to enforce them,” Ickes acknowledged today on the call even while trying to convince members of the media that Florida’s and Michigan’s delegations should not only be seated at the convention, but should also have full voting rights and that delegates should be allocated based on voting that took place in those states — even though in Michigan, Obama’s name did not even appear on the ballot and uncommitted got 41% of the vote to Clinton’s 55%.

    Shall we start calling Ickes/Clinton the republican wing of the democratic party?

    Another piece of nastiness, via Ickes spokesman Phil Singer:

    They also argued that Clinton’s base voters — women and blue-collar Democrats — are more reliable. Obama has “voters who might not be as reliably there,” Singer said. While that could be argued for the record numbers of young voters who have come out to vote for Obama, Singer made no mention of African Americans, one of the pillars of the Democratic Party.

    So not only are the states Barack wins unimportant, so too those who vote for him.
    They can’t be counted on. They are unreliable. Wow. This is amazing Bush/Rovian stuff…

  • If the silly statements by Obama’s campaign staff were given the same media coverage as those of Clinton’s, this would be a fairer campaign. If there is any “conspiracy” here, it is the media’s attempt to undermine Clinton.

    Who cares what these guys say? What matters is what Clinton has done previously and what her positions are on important issues (because these suggest what she will do once elected). The rest is noise.

    Those of you who are pretending to judge Clinton by the quality of remarks made by her “staff,” are mainly using this as an excuse to bash her. I don’t believe you were ever really going to vote for her, but now you have a reason not to. If you think Obama’s people are any smarter, you are deluded.

  • From Edwards to Obama to Clinton and now I am leaning over to Obama because of this “Whatever it takes” non-sense. Good thing I live in Texas.

    Speaking of Texas, get this we get two votes:
    The primary, from 7-7 and accounts for 70% of the vote.
    The caucus, at 7:30 and accounts for 30% if the vote.

    Eye socket meet screwdriver.

  • Mary, it’s not just “her staff” that are making these sorts of comments.

    Hillary has frequently made such comments as well.

  • Revised

    The primary, from 7-7 and accounts for 70% of the delegates.
    The caucus, at 7:30 and accounts for 30% if the delegates.

  • crat3,

    I agree, the votes from Florida should be counted as they stand. It was a free and fair primary with a large turnout.

    Michigan is another story completely, and the facts of the situation are murky…at best. The rules of the DNC may indeed be stupid, but they were clear. And unlike in Florida (where a Republican controlled legislature made the decision), Michigan has a Democratic governor, two Democratic Senators, and my rabidly red congressional district has a Democratic Rep. (Democrats also have a majority in the State Legislature)

    We were told that our votes didn’t count and we acted accordingly, where is the “democracy” in that? The point of the exercise was to draw attention to Michigan, it worked…now the whole country knows that our state’s politics is best described by dysfunction, immaturity, and incompetence.

    Mark Brewer, the head of the MDP, is cut from the same cloth as Mark Penn. They are both fools who are rather full of themselves and have a propensity for losing more elections than they win.

  • Crat3 –

    MI and FL were UNCONTESTED primaries. All the democratic candidates were asked not to campaign in those states because they would be stripped of their delegates. They were hardly “free and fair” primaries.

    When candidates don’t have the chance to campaign in a state, the benefit automatically accrues to the candidate with the highest name recognition – Hillary Clinton – and the majority of voters vote for the name they are familiar with because they haven’t been exposed to the campaign messages and advertising of the other contestants.

    In every contest we see the same pattern. Hillary has a massive lead in the early polls until the other candidates start to campaign in the state, then the race tightens. And in 23 of the last 34 contests Obama has come out the winner.

    Since Obama did not campaign in those states, we have no idea whether or not Hillary would have won them if they both had the chance to campaign hard in them, so Hillary should not be awarded the lion’s share of the delegates from states other candidates were not allowed to compete in. How many of Obama’s supporters stayed home because they thought their state’s primary wasn’t going to count?

    The only fair way to seat those delegates is if MI and FL hold new primaries/caucuses. The voters in those states were placed in that position by their own local politicians and they deserve the blame.

  • I know! Let’s ask the Supreme Court to rule on the Florida delegates.

    I have no doubts where the establishment sympathies lie.

    One more reason to vote for Obama.

  • I still cannot understand why Hillary hasen’t fired this a** for incomptence.

    Isn’t it obvious that she thinks he’s smart? It’d be one thing if she was a low-level candidate and all the good strategists had been taken. But she had her pick of the lot and has had him around for YEARS. She hasn’t fired him because she agrees with him. I think that says a lot about her judgment.

  • Penn is to Clinton as Rumsfeld is to Bush. Hillary needs to drop the loyalty and recognize a liability when she sees one. If this is the way she runs her campaign staff one would infer it would be the same way she would run her cabinet. Let him go Hill.

    And these guys should quit with the electability crap. That all amount to a pile of he said-she saids. Clinton should focus on what she would do once in office. That would raise her public esteem and not be a thin attempt to lower someone else’s.

  • So if winning caucuses doesn’t prove you’re better in the generals, and head-to-head match-ups with McCain don’t prove anything, and insignificant states don’t mean anything, and winning the primaries doesn’t mean Obama’s a good candidate — what does?

  • I agree, the votes from Florida should be counted as they stand. It was a free and fair primary with a large turnout.

    Jackpine – Florida wasn’t any good either. Candidates need to be able to campaign in the state to get their message across. That’s why Hillary couldn’t vote on the FISA immunity deal, because she had to come here to Texas to campaign. Now, perhaps we could say she was an idiot and could have done just as well if she had run a few ads and stayed at home, but I think she knows what she’s talking about. She came to Texas weeks before the primary because she knows it takes that long to do this, and that’s in a state she has a lead in. Obama was behind in Florida and never had a chance to change that.

    Even worse for that election was that Hillary was the name-recognition candidate, while Obama is the one who has to campaign to sell himself. He always does better in places where he can campaign, so people can put a face to his weird name. Even if Floridians wouldn’t have come out to see him, he’d have been all over the local news if he had been there. So the fact that he couldn’t campaign seriously undermined the credability of that election. I fail to see what was free or fair about it. It’s not democracy if the candidates can’t sell themselves to the people voting for them.

    I agree that Michigan was even worse than Florida, but Florida wasn’t acceptable either.

  • This is Penn’s attempt at a strategy now after his original one, “Inevitability”, apparently lacked traction when the “uber” met the road.

    According to Wikipedia, this is the same guy that “in September 2007, released a book titled Microtrends: The Small Forces Behind Tomorrow’s Big Changes, which examines and illuminates small trends sweeping the world.”

    I’m still trying to work out if he is the small force behind HRC, or if he’s referring to Obama.

  • #17

    Under your theory I’m guessing that you believe the voters in MI and FL are stupid. Thanks for sharing its people like this that have turned me against Obama and why he won’t get my vote in Nov.

    Once his 4 years of f’ing up the country more I will likely get back into working for the democratic party. Things will not have changed much by this time in 2012.

  • If the silly statements by Obama’s campaign staff were given the same media coverage as those of Clinton’s, this would be a fairer campaign. If there is any “conspiracy” here, it is the media’s attempt to undermine Clinton.

    Good point, Mary. Let’s all nominate the person the media hates and wants to undermine. That worked great in the past and I like to make these general elections even harder than they already are. We’ll not only take on the GOP, we’ll take on the media too! Excellent!!

    And it really would help if you told us the silly statements you think the Obama people are making. And could it really be as silly as Ickes, who is telling us that he voted for stripping the FL and MI delegates because he was obliged to do so to enforce party rules, but wants them back because they help Hillary’s campaign and he works for Hillary? It’s not just that these are “silly” points. It’s that Ickes and Penn are totally undermining your candidate. You should deal with it instead of reminding us of how much the media hates Hillary.

    Are there any pro-Hillary arguments left that don’t make her look bad? Even her supporters are making them.

  • The outcry from Fortress Hillary that “these voters are being disenfranchised” is 100% pure, unadulterated CRAP. They knew ahead of the primary that they weren’t going to be counted. Their state party leadership had the opportunity to change the date—thus re-enfranchising those voters—and they chose not to.

    Now, they claim to be unable to reverse the decision because it’s too expensive? Please—that’s like saying you can’t afford auto insurance after you’ve run a stop-sign and smashed up a school-bus full of kids—when you had the chance to walk the two blocks on a nice sunny day to the grocer’s for your daily dose of generic beer. Florida’s state party had the legal authority to hold their primary on a later date; they bowed to the wishes of their legislature—which was not an enforceable mandate—and now they want to pretend that they can just do “whatever” on the turn of a dime.

    I’ll agree to seating the Florida and Michigan delegations—the day after Florida and Michigan hold new primaries. They made a choice; they don’t like the results—and it isn’t someone else’s job to fix their mistake.

    The old adage, “You break it, you buy it” fits perfectly here….

  • It was a free and fair primary with a large turnout.

    Wrong.

    It may have a been a free primary, but there is nothing fair about how it went down. When candidates are prevented from campaigning and reaching out to voters with their message, you cannot lend credibility to the results. You are arguing that politics exist in a vacuum, and by that token we may as well just have all our elections without campaigning. Just stick the names on the ballot and let people choose. Sound fair?

    And unlike in Florida (where a Republican controlled legislature made the decision)

    Wrong again.

    While the GOP in the legislature forced the issue, Karen L. Thurman the head of the Democratic party here is the one to blame. She made a colossal blunder and has nobody to blame but herself.

    The only fair way to seat those delegates is if MI and FL hold new primaries/caucuses.

    Someone gets it right.

    Seating delegates based on invalid results is a sham. The only way to seat them fairly is to have a real contest. Here in Florida, the party has a lot of excuses for why that can’t happen. I wonder why. Maybe because the chair of the party seems to have a bias towards Clinton? But that can’t be, since Clinton isn’t planning on winning through using her muscle with the party establishment to cut a backroom deal in defiance of the will of the voters…

  • Under your theory I’m guessing that you believe the voters in MI and FL are stupid.

    Jim – What are you talking about? I’ve read that comment twice and see nothing that says they were stupid or insults them in any way. Are you guys really so desperate you have to invent stuff? Oh yeah, you are. My sympathies.

  • Under your theory I’m guessing that you believe the voters in MI and FL are stupid. Thanks for sharing its people like this that have turned me against Obama and why he won’t get my vote in Nov.

    Good.

    We don’t need people like you to support Obama. You have consistently lied, misrepresented facts and blatantly shilled on behalf of Hillary in every thread you respond to, and quite frankly I am glad not to belong to any group you consider yourself a member of.

    FYI, voters in FL and MI aren’t stupid – they were uninformed. They cast votes in a political vacuum. There is a reason why people running for office are allowed to campaign. Hacks like you want to pretend like it’s perfectly valid to accept otherwise.

    If Obama wins the nomination, by all means stay home and pout. Show that you share the same juvenile mentality as the candidate you support and take your ball and go home. As an Obama supporter, I will vote for whoever the Dem nominee in November because I am committed to seeing the Republicans out of office.

  • Now, they claim to be unable to reverse the decision because it’s too expensive?

    I honestly think they could have some sort of charity concert for it, like getting Bruce Springstein and Bono to come out in support of the Democratic Party, to raise money for new primaries. The tv rights alone could be enough to run new primaries, with the remaining balance going to the Democratic Party or something. Plus, both candidates are sure to have lots of rich people who would like give more money to their candidate, but can’t. And if they feel so sure that their candidate deserves to win, this would be a way for them to support that candidate without violating contribution limits.

    This way, we draw attention and support for the party, while also giving us the fair elections those voters deserve. It’s a win-win.

  • Doctor Biobrain,

    I don’t disagree that FL was bad too, but it seems that enough people voted so that the primary could stand as is…specifically as free and fair. Not long ago, someone here from FL said that the state was planning on mailing ballots to everyone who voted in the primary to recast their presidential nominee vote. That would seem to work just fine given the number of people who voted.

    Here in MI, the MDP is dead set against any sort of revoting. Their rationale is that the primary was completely free and fair and that they wouldn’t want to disenfranchise the 300,000 or so people who voted for Clinton. To hear Mark Brewer tell it, this whole thing is the fault of Sen Obama and John Edwards.

    Let’s just say that i’m looking forward to this election cycle more for the local aspect than the Presidential aspect; there are some scores to settle…

  • Do you ever get the sense that Penn sometimes does more harm than good?

    I feel like just about every statement Penn makes publicly does Clinton more harm than good. Worse than that though, it seems like all of his remarks aren’t even coordinated with anyone else in the campaign, like maybe he wakes up with “brilliant” ideas and immediately calls members of the media to tell them. Which is horrible considering he is supposed to be the main strategy guy.

  • All I hear is Obama (messiah) didn’t campaign in FL you think we don’t have cable/satalite in FL we hear all the news about Obama. How is it Edwards got almost as many votes as Obama or more in FL. I our primary would have been held on Feb 5th Hillary would have still won and by just as big a margin.

    As for MI I guess 55% of the people that voted there were misinformed also there was only a little over a year of pandering for votes in IA.

    I hope Obama wins I have health insurance, I finacially stable and do not use any government services, I set up trust funds for all my grandchildren and I’m to old to go to war again. So like I said come 2012 I will again actively work for the democratic party and their values.

  • I don’t disagree that FL was bad too, but it seems that enough people voted so that the primary could stand as is…specifically as free and fair.

    What does the number of people have to do with it if they weren’t allowed to hear from Obama? Hillary wouldn’t be jet-setting back and forth between Texas and Ohio if it wasn’t important to get facetime with voters. And with Obama being the lesser-known candidate, it’s obvious that he needs the facetime more than her. Sure, the turn-out was big, but not allowing him to campaign there put him at a serious disadvantage.

    She’s the one voters pick by default and they don’t know the alternative; he’s the one they really want. That’s why the only successful strategy the Hillary people have is to scare people away from Obama by calling him “untested” and “unproven.” Because they know he’s the candidate people really want.

  • I just came across a Washington Post article written by James Carville and Mark Penn from July 2nd, 2006.

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/06/30/AR2006063001478.html

    Read it and see how nothing has changed from nearly 3 years ago, women voters, she’s Swift-Boat proof, 42% negative rating, and her 35 years of experience. Seems she also had 35 years of experience in 2006, so may be the last couple of years haven’t counted for much?

    Hillary picked this guy and it says volumes about her.

  • All I hear is Obama (messiah) didn’t campaign in FL you think we don’t have cable/satalite in FL we hear all the news about Obama.

    Would you please like to explain why Hillary (messiah) is flying back and forth to Texas and Ohio to campaign? Does she not know they have cable/satellite? How insulting of her.

  • Mary @ #12 says;

    “Who cares what these guys say? What matters is what Clinton has done previously and what her positions are on important issues (because these suggest what she will do once elected). The rest is noise.”

    Last week, Clinton, although she was in the DC area, couldn’t find the time to show up and vote on telecom immunity. This is just one example of her demonstrating “what her positions are on important issues”, which very clearly “suggest what she will do once elected”.

    This is why she’s losing, not because “there is any “conspiracy” here.”

    A vote for Clinton is a vote for McCain, because that’s who you’ll get.

  • Dr. BB,

    Like i said, it was bad…but i also said that it sounds like they have an efficient way to do the whole thing over and let the candidates campaign beforehand.

    I agree that without campaigning, name recognition will win every time. On the other hand, we have two very bad situations. It is likely that there will not be perfect solutions for either…much less both. My hope is that FL will implement the solution posted here on CB some time ago with the mail-in ballots. But even if they don’t, at least the results don’t reek of corruption like they do here in MI.

    The two are getting lumped together, but they are actually very different situations requiring very different solutions. And in the case of MI, i don’t think that there is a solution.

  • A few snippets from The Sunday Times (UK) editorial that gets it right:
    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/us_elections/article3382295.ece

    The friends of Bill or “white boys”, as Penn and Terry McAu-liffe, the campaign chairman, are known, have long viewed “Hillaryland” – the closed circle of female friends – with suspicion.Patti Solis Doyle, who coined the term “Hillaryland” and was axed as Clinton’s campaign manager last week, found herself in the midst of rows. “There was a feeling that nobody was in charge”…

    And…

    In Ohio, Clinton has the backing of Ted Strickland, the governor and a superdelegate who is often mentioned as a possible vice-presidential running mate. He said in an interview: “I tell you, when I go to the convention I’m going to vote for Hillary Clinton come hell or high water.” The apocalyptic imagery may be appropriate. Many Democrats predict a bloody civil war should Obama be defeated by the white men in suits who have run the party for decades.

  • Jackpine – My hope is that Obama can close the gap in Ohio and Texas and all this becomes moot, as their votes wouldn’t be enough to help Hillary. So we can seat those delegates without them overturning the election. I think the chances of this are pretty good, depending on how much time Obama can devote towards spending here and in Ohio.

    That’s part of the thing that goes against what I was saying, as I don’t think campaigning helps Hillary. People already know who she is and if they haven’t already decided to vote for her, they’re not likely to change their minds. But she’s campaigning all the same, so she can do something. This isn’t an election between Hillary and Barack. This is just about whether Barack can convince people he’s a good candidate, and if he can’t, they fall back on Hillary. Not because they want her, but because they feel they have no other choice. But if Barack can convince people he’s a viable candidate, they will reject her. And with every win, his sales pitch becomes that much easier. Hillary’s the one people will accept; Barack is the one they want.

  • I consider myself a supporter of both Obama and Hillary, with a slight preference for Obama. But wow, both the Hillary campaign and the Hillary supporters on here are really embarrassing themselves. Penn essentially says that he has no actual principles, Hillary wants to change the rules of the contest midstream by seating FL and MI because it would favor her (what do you think she’d be saying if she had lost MI to “uncommitted” rather than eking out a close victory?), and the Hillary supporters here spout stuff about how she is not responsible for what her campaign says or does.

    I really do think she is better than her campaign and supporters are making her look, but if this really is the level of honesty and integrity we can expect in a Hillary presidency, count me out. Obama is flawed in many ways, but he at least pretends to care about principles. The Hillary camp seems to have given up even the pretense.

  • Dr. BB,

    Agreed, wholeheartedly and with everything from post #38. I’m pretty non-partisan in this (and i already voted in a primary that doesn’t count), but i much prefer Sen Obama as a candidate…for reasons too lengthy to enumerate here.

    He does a good job closing the gap as people get to know him, and i think that he can do so in Ohio and Texas. In all these cases, he doesn’t even need to win. He only needs to keep it close enough.

    Yes, the best possible solution to these problems would for them to become moot. If they don’t, and if Sen Clinton makes good on her vow to fight this (no matter what) all the way to the convention…then i fear a bloodbath. I also fear that two generations currently being awakened from the cynicism will be all but lost. That worries me more than anything else. And it is not a matter of “my candidate didn’t win so i’m pissed”; it is about energizing the people with the will and the desire to set this nation on a course for decades to come.

    This is it (if it is not already too late). This our nation’s last chance to set itself right. That won’t be accomplished by a single candidate because it cannot be accomplished that way. The only hope that we have is for We the People to realize that the power is theirs if they take it. Consequently, we need a candidate who invigorates and inspires people to action…action beyond supporting a candidate.

    I don’t know if Sen Obama can do that, but i do know that Sen Clinton cannot…so at the end of the day, i’ll gamble on a chance at success. Otherwise, the best bet will be expatriation.

  • How is it Edwards got almost as many votes as Obama or more in FL.

    One of the things I can’t get over is how much the Hillary people (campaign and supporters) just can’t stop hurting themselves. It’s one thing to give bad spin, but when they keep undermining their own side it keeps reminding me why we shouldn’t nominate her. Because they ONLY see the small-picture and are like cats who attack whatever object happens to be in front of them without knowing what it is.

    Like the quote of Jim’s I just gave. First off, that totally makes the opposite point he’s trying to make. I mean, I don’t think John Edwards has beaten Obama ANYWHERE. Maybe he has, but I can’t remember it. So if Edwards did as well as Obama in Florida, that would be an indicator that Obama was seriously hurt by his inability to campaign. I mean, Obama beat Edwards in South Carolina, which was Edwards’ birth state and which he won in 2004. So if Edwards was doing as well as Obama in Florida, it would suggest that it hurt Obama to not campaign.

    But I checked it out and Edwards DIDN’T do as well as Obama in Florida. Hillary got 50%, Obama got 33%, and Edwards got 14%. So Jim didn’t even know what the heck he was talking about. Of course, this does undermine the point I was trying to make, as it shows that Obama did fairly well. But this wasn’t a point I was even trying to make and only say it now because I saw the truth and wanted to report it. And all the same, I still argue that Obama was seriously hurt by his inability to campaign because he was the least-known of the three candidates and needed to get people to know him better. He was able to overcome Edwards’ name advantage, but not Hillary’s.

    And the main point is that it’s not just Penn. ALL of the Hillary people seem incapable of seeing the big picture. Whether they’re reminding us that the media hates her, or that the DNC was obliged to strip FL and MI of their votes, or that Obama states aren’t significant, or that she’s aggressively wooing super-delegates to overturn the popular election results, or that Obama is too tough and needs to put the kid gloves on when hitting back against Hillary; they just can’t help themselves. They see an object in front of them and they keep hitting it until a new object arises.

    And that’s just no way to win elections; which would explain why Hillary’s not winning. I support Obama because he’s able to duke out the day-to-day battles, but without losing sight of the big picture.

  • There is a very simple solution which has been brought up a couple times, but which oddly hasn’t seemed to gain any traction: seat both the Florida and Michigan delegates but split them right down the middle. Hillary gets 50%, Obama gets 50%. The two rogue states can then be “included” without having any impact whatsoever on the results. Given that both states specifically broke the rules, how is this compromise not the best solution?

  • Sean @ 42:

    That’s an interesting solution, but I think it would be more fair to split the delegates in the same ratio as the candidates’ delegates from other states. It’s a subtle but important distinction. Going 50/50 would have the effect of narrowing whatever gap exists by then.

  • I understand your counter compromise, but splitting the total Florida delegation 50-50 and splitting the total Michigan delegation 50-50 would NOT narrow any gap. For instance, let’s just say I have $50 and you have $75, the gap is $25. Now we agree to split $30 down the middle. That gives me $65 and you $90…the gap remains $25.

  • Given that both states specifically broke the rules, how is this compromise not the best solution?

    Sean – Does that solve anything? It seems that would still ignore the voter’s decision, while also not helping decide who wins the nomination. This is an honest question, BTW. I also thought of that, but wasn’t sure how it solved anything.

    I still think the best option is a re-do financed by rich Democrats or a charity concert promoting the Democratic Party with Bruce Springstein and others. But the Hillary people don’t want that, and would rather take a roll of the dice in pressuring the party to give her the win, rather than risk losing to Obama in another election. Both involve risks, but one involves her ability to woo voters while the other involves pressuring party leaders. The fact that Hillary would rather woo party leaders than voters is yet another bad sign.

  • Um, Sean. In your example, I go from having 60% of the total money to having 58% of the total money. You go from 40% to 42%. My lead drops from 20% to 16%.

    I think brokering and superdelegate decisions are more likely to be made based on percentages than the raw delegate count differences. Your original proposal would, in my opinion, have the effect of painting a closer race than it actually was.

    I still think it’s a good idea, I’d just lean towards keeping the percentages constant.

  • Brooks, I get what you are saying about it affecting the total percentage, but I really don’t think the Obama camp is very concerned about that gap. The gap that is going to matter (in the old court of public opinion) is the 100+ pledged delegate gap that Obama is likely to maintain through the rest of the contests. Splitting the Florida and Michigan delegates down the middle, would not affect this at all.

  • Brooks, thinking about it more, I am leaning to your percentage solution. Though it seems that this would be a more difficult deal to hammer out. But I suppose Hillary and Co. would definitely try to start talking in percentages to try and make the contest sound closer than it is.

  • Brooks – “I really do think she is better than her campaign and supporters are making her look…”

    Brooks, I think you are giving Hillary too much credit. She is a very smart politician, but her organization is a reflection of HER. That campaign oozes nastiness, arrogance and a lack of principles because that’s the tone that HILLARY sets.

    She is not a nice person who is being misrepresented by bad personnel choices. Her personnel choices are a reflection of her. All the nonsense from that campaign is coming straight from the top.

    Recently, I’ve read numerous articles which blame “her advisors” for Hillary’s decision to run as an “insurgent” in a campaign that has been about change. How do we know that it was all up to the advisors? Does Hillary strike you as a humble person? She’s running on her husband’s record, worked with the DNC to compress the voting schedule and create a MASSIVE Super Tuesday that would make it very hard for candidates with little funding to advertise and compete with her in the early states and on Feb. 5th, thought she’d have it all wrapped up on Feb. 5th, and didn’t have a post-Feb. 5th strategy. Tsunami Tuesday was designed to guarantee Hillary the nomination.

    All along, it’s been the strategy of a coronation, and now that they’re having to really work for it, the party has this horrible situation on its hands. I don’t know how it will work out, but I think the nonsense coming out of her campaign is an indication of what her presidency will look like and I want no part of that.

  • My hope is that FL will implement the solution posted here on CB some time ago with the mail-in ballots. — Jackpine savage, @36

    You need to learn not to conflate what CB says with what the commenters here say 🙂 The rumour about the mail-in ballots had been floated by Jim (Hillary walks on water but Penn wants to waterboard her) and, even he himself was looking for confirmation — he’d heard it as a rumour. And I haven’t heard that rumour anywhere else but here, from him.

    Besides, what good would it do to have *only* the people who had voted before voting again? It’s doubtful they’d change their mind, even if they bothered to fill in the ballots and send them back. It’s people who *didn’t* vote (thinking their vote wouldn’t count) that would need to be pulled into the process. Send it to *all* Dems if possible (does FL have registration of political leaning? VA doesn’t and that’s all I know), after both had a chance to revisit the state and campaign there, and you might have a semblance of restored democracy.

    They see an object in front of them and they keep hitting it until a new object arises. — Dr BB, @41

    Sounds like rhinoceros politics. But never “misunderestimate” the rhino; it does have very poor vision but it also has a massive body and nearly impenetrable skin…

  • I’ve never seen so much hate and jeering toward /a democratic campaign most of it based on assumptions of motivations where every little nuisance is a deal breaker calling for the rack to be brought out. It’s as bad as Guiliani’s 9/11…just mention Clinton and they start salivatating. I see most of it as disguised misogyny, else why would it all be made to make her appear so vile. I don’t support her but the ruthlessness and viciousness of some of the comments…especially as if “beating the shit” out of someone is something to be heralded (but it was justified because he was an asshole). Malkin thinks that way too. She also posts links to those who agree with her as if somehow that proves her point. If only as much energy was put forth on trying to get the issues discussed so we could make the candidates more progressive. As it is they think we agree with them because we vote for them. So much of this identity politics skips right over getting our voices heard on the issues. Not For Profit healthcare…one example. instead of how does this make a candidate look. These candidates intentions are good I hope but I cannot see them on the democratic side as being so sinister as many here make them appear. A recent development I might add. Both candidates are 10X better than the alternative, neither are that progressive and that’s where we should come in…they are after all, representatives…It’s our parade.

  • I have enormous respect for Clinton’s intelligence and her courage, but she thinks like a lawyer, not like a leader, which is why she’s nitpicking the rules instead of inspiring voters. Obama may not have her experience, but he’s a born leader and it shows. What’s interesting is that the convention will be the long-awaited public test of the Clintons’ integrity. If they blow up the convention and the party to get her the nomination, they’ll be what the right wing has always said they were, Mr. and Mrs. Macbeth. If Clinton fights as hard as she can but then bows to the will of the people and gives way gracefully to Obama, she’ll demonstrate the character I believe she has.

  • …so; is the implication there that, if Hillary pulls off a big win in the Texas primary, she should be reasonably confident of carrying Texas in the General? If so, Penn has a pragmatism problem like Arizona has a canyon.

  • My understanding was that the election date in FL was set by the Republican governor, not by the Democrats in FL. I don’t understand why everyone in that state is being punished for something they could not help. I also don’t understand why the Obama supporters keep saying he had no chance to campaign there when no one had the chance to campaign there (Edwards, Clinton, etc.). It seems grossly unfair to punish the voters of FL and MI for actions the state Dems had no control over. That’s why I am sympathetic to their claims that they are being disenfranchised. Of course Clinton wants their votes counted, since they voted overwhelmingly for her, something that is unsurprising given the demographics in those states (Obama would not have won if he had campaigned there).

    I regard the negative statements about Clinton resting on her husband’s record to be a litmus test of sexism. When a person cannot understand what and how a woman contributes to her husband’s success, then he or she is incapable of viewing a woman as a full partner in anything. I read a biography once of Benjamin Franklin’s son and it was interesting to see how many of the projects attributed to the father were jointly accomplished by father and son working together. Today people marvel at how much Benjamin Franklin was able to accomplish, but it is less surprising when you know that two smart hard-working people contributed full efforts. If someone cannot appreciate that about the Clintons, how can they appreciate that about any other woman who works side-by-side with a husband in a business or other endeavor? This is the story of women’s invisibility in history and it is playing out in this campaign.

  • I also don’t understand why the Obama supporters keep saying he had no chance to campaign there when no one had the chance to campaign there (Edwards, Clinton, etc.).

    Mary – It’s simple. Hillary is the big name candidate who everyone already knows. She was more famous than Barack is now back before he ever became a politician. Barack is the unknown candidate who people won’t vote for unless they know who he is. That’s why Hillary always has big leads in states before Barack starts campaigning there, but he often ends up winning. And why he didn’t do better on Super Tuesday, because he couldn’t campaign enough places.

    Basically, Hillary is the candidate people choose when they don’t know a better alternative exists. But Barack is the candidate they pick when they learn more about him. So that’s why it really hurt him that he couldn’t campaign.

    Beyond that, you’re mistaken about Michigan. It’s my understanding that the Democrats made the decision there, and Hillary was the only name on the ballot. So that’s not even close to being a fair race. But even in Florida, the voters didn’t really know what their choices were. That’s just not how democracy is supposed to work.

  • I’ve never seen so much hate and jeering toward /a democratic campaign most of it based on assumptions of motivations where every little nuisance is a deal breaker calling for the rack to be brought out.

    Joey – What are you talking about? Hate?? I see little hate here. And I find it a tad odd that someone could attack “assumptions of motiviations” in one sentence, and then complain that “most of it as disguised misogyny” in the next. And what do you mean by “beating the shit” out of someone, when no one here said that at all. I honestly don’t know what you’re talking about when you say these things.

    It’s my guess that you’re still living in last week or so, when the attacks on Hillary got really bad. And while I can’t remember what most of the people said on this post, I don’t see the vileness you’re talking about. If you have a complaint to make against someone, make it. But I just feel like Obama and his good supporters like myself are being wrongly smeared by what you’re saying. Maybe you weren’t meaning us at all, but I can’t tell what you’re talking about and think it just sounds like more of the anti-Obama smearing that went on due to vile people which might not have been his supporters at all. And if you weren’t addressing anyone who was writing here, I don’t know why you wrote it at all.

    I should add that I’m not accusing you of being a Hillary stooge or anything. I just don’t think it’s fair to make such unwarranted accusations against a nameless group. You’ve got to separate the good folks from the bad ones.

  • Pushing for a woman to win just because of her sex, rather than her qualifications as the best leader, is no smarter than pushing for an Obama victory just because he is black. Hillary Clinton, if nominated and elected, is not going to rectify all the wrongs done women or fill all the power positions with women, any more than Barack Obama is going to do the same for blacks. Any first-term president who is hoping to roll straight into a second term (show me one who isn’t) cannot afford to cater exclusively to the subset to which he or she belongs, unless that subset constitutes a powerful enough voting bloc to make a second term a near-certainty. Neither does in this case – Hillary couldn’t win just on women’s votes, and Obama couldn’t win just on the black vote. A second-term democratic president is going to have to build on reconciliation, and unite the country.

    Take your second paragraph, Mary, regarding joint accomplishments, and turn it around. Now Hillary’s the president, but she and Bill are running the country. Is that cool with you? If so, let me tell you who isn’t so receptive to the idea – all the Republicans, including the moderates, and most of the independents. The general train of thought, and I haven’t seen anything to suggest it’s foolish, is that if Hillary is elected, there’ll be no need for a running mate, because there’d be nothing for a vice-president to do. Every decision Hillary made, as long as Bill didn’t come out in public against it, would be held up as Bill’s influence, given wings by the president’s blessing.

    Besides, here’s no evidence that the previous Clinton presidency was a co-presidency, with Hillary having equal input to major decisions. Who would put up with that? The president’s wife isn’t elected! If Hillary is elected, Bill won’t be – but just try keeping him out of the decision-making loop.

    If you want to know how each one would run the country, take a look at how each is running his/her campaign. The Obama campaign is functioning like a well-oiled machine – even the Republicans, masters of vote-rigging and slash-and-burn politics, admire the efficient juggernaut that is Obama’s ground organization, and he doesn’t even need to use dirty tactics. The Clinton campaign, by contrast, is in disarray; has made mistake after miscalculation, and is constantly rationalizing its stumbles.

    If you still think Hillary would be the best leader, and your preference has nothing to do with her gender, then that’s the way you should vote.

  • Mary (#12): If you think Obama’s people are any smarter, you are deluded.

    Right. That’s why Obama’s staff has yet to say anything as boneheaded as Ickes or Penn. That’s why Obama’s staff has come through with a way so that – if they reach no more donors than they already have – they can raise $199 million between now and November, while Hillay can barely reach $98 million and is now reduced to having telemarketers calling people to raise money (I know this directly). That’s why Obama never had to loan money to his own campaign because his campaign manager was too fucking dumb (or afraid of him) to tell the truth of burning through $100 million to no gain.

    People like you are even more pathetic than the Humbert Humphrey/Lyndon Johnson supporters were 40 years ago.

  • Joey (#53) said: I’ve never seen so much hate and jeering toward /a democratic campaign most of it based on assumptions of motivations where every little nuisance is a deal breaker calling for the rack to be brought out.

    Well, obviously you are one of those who probably wasn’t even alive the last time there was a meaningful difference between the candidates for a Democratic nomination for President, that being in 1968.

    Were you one of those with “other priorities” between 1992-2000? Did you not watch the Clintons fuck up national health care, a national industrial policy in favor of exporting jobs to satisfy Wall Street, a welfare “reform” that is now biting people in the ass in this “wonderful Republican economy”, the loss of 40 years of Legislative Branch majority??? One doesn’t have to buy any of the Republican bullshit attacks on them to indict the Clintons for their real crimes.

  • ***Dr. Biobrain*** please note Tom Cleaver comment #2…”…One night he went into a bar as his usual Mr. Wonderful self, and met someone who had the same opinion everyone else I knew had of him, only this guy expressed it by kicking his ass. In fact it was a very serious asskicking. Nobody felt sorry for the guy when they heard about it, in fact the general opinion was “finally!”

    Dr….You said…”..And what do you mean by “beating the shit” out of someone, when no one here said that at all. I honestly don’t know what you’re talking about when you say these things….” “Finally” is what I meant by heralded.

    And Cleaver…It’s as clear as the nose on your face.
    My other priorities from 1992-2000 was spent not being paranoid of my president and living in a nation that still had a middle class and an economic surplus. Where discussions weren’t viewed as dissent and when many non republican authoritarians weren’t quite so nasty. Born in 1950 I’ve seen quite a few changes but when times were fairly good I closed my eyes to politics and corrupt government practices but like most Americans the last 12yrs have made it necessary to get involved to restore our democracy or lose it.

    “…what more needs to be said about the Empress?”
    “…By hook or crock:
    I expect the absolute worst from these people.
    They will steal this election if they can.”
    “…because their shared career has been an endless string of scandals. It is not enough to be vetted. The goal is to be vetted and found clean.”
    “…it would be a fitting contribution to the Clinton legacy of monumental selfishness.”
    “…She is not a nice person who is being misrepresented by bad personnel choices. Her personnel choices are a reflection of her. All the nonsense from that campaign is coming straight from the top.”
    Make no mistake…whoever wins the democratic nomination will be the next president…so this is meaningless …”…And that’s just no way to win elections; which would explain why Hillary’s not winning. I support Obama because he’s able to duke out the day-to-day battles, but without losing sight of the big picture” Duke out what??? Try saying “How” after every Obama sentence he says in his speeches. Most of Obama’s campaign depends on a negative attitude toward Hilary.

    btw (off topic a little) Super delegates don’t stand for the voters or independents they stand for the democratic party..what is best for it…they need not be influenced by cross over republicans or independents…they represent the democratic party club where they have devoted all their time and attention being a part of. If you aren’t a registered democrat they don’t stand for your vote.

    Now back to topic mentioned…you are right Dr B, I am still smarting from all the offensive vile comments over the last week regarding Clinton. I’ve had to wade through WORM (What Obama Really Means) comments trying to get how Obama plans to do what he says he wants to do and I don’t necessarily like what I found at his web site or how inquiries about his conservative financial advisers were treated as attacks on Obama. It’s like being called stupid for wanting something different than what I’m hearing. “You should just shut up and accept it if it came from O (and no I don’t mean Oprah). When I said “I see most of it as”…I’m telling you that I am assuming a motivation and that it is opinion and so should not be accepted as fact. How many times did you comment on this article alone Dr.? Not that it wasn’t rational discussion but one might view it as overkill on one point to keep pushing Obama by making Clinton appear basically incompetent and lacking judgment over and over and over again…and then you say:”…You’ve got to separate the good folks from the bad ones.” You’re right and you are one of the good folks. But there’s another category…those who go by innuendo to both sides, good when it’s them and theirs and bad when it’s you and yours. BTW…I say “How” after both candidates sentences in their speeches just so I know when smoke is being blown up my butt. I like my Obama with fangs and my Clinton with flowers. Both ambitious enough to be where they are which is behind my parade so far. When will they listen to us. There is “Yes we can”…and …”No you can’t” When it comes to the republican disaster the first must be applied to the second or we just go round in circles again.

    btw…(Joey is bjobotts, I am now posting under my first name)

  • Joey @62 – One guy?? You were addressing Clever? Then why not say so? I thought you were talking about lots of us. Now it just looks like you were picking one person and trying to disparage all of us based on that. But that’s exactly what the Hillary people have been doing the whole time. They find a handful of Obama people they don’t like and insist we’re all like that. But it’s really just a smear on Obama. And where did the Hillary hatred come from this post? I’m glad you admitted that this was hold-over from the past few weeks, but it’s time to get over it. Most of us realized that Hillary’s last chance was the sympathy vote and decided to be nice, to remove the last reason why people support Hillary.

    As for how many times I commented here, did you read the comments I wrote? Please re-read them and tell me about the overkill. Each one of them was different, and most of them were addressing specific points other people made. Are you really going to suggest I’ve done something wrong for saying this stuff? Am I not allowed to defend my candidate or address what other people wrote? Hell, many of them were just talking about the Florida-Michigan thing, including disagreements with Obama people.

    I’m sorry, but I think you’ve fallen victim to Hillary sympathizing. You just don’t like people attacking her, even if the attacks are fair. Or people disagreeing with her supporters. And that’s absurd. I’ve done nothing wrong. There is no overkill. Hillary’s campaign continues to make huge mistakes that undermine her side and there’s nothing wrong with me saying that. I’m sorry, but you need to re-think this whole situation. Hillary bashing is bad, but you’re suggesting we’re not allowed to disagree with her? That’s insane.

    BTW, I’ve told Clever and a few others to tone it down. I wish they would. They won’t. That doesn’t reflect on Obama or me. Please base your decisions on the candidates, and not their supporters. Some people just don’t like Hillary or Barack and there’s nothing anyone can do about it.

  • Super delegates don’t stand for the voters or independents they stand for the democratic party..what is best for it

    Sorry, but that’s bull f-ing shit, my friend. They stand for themselves. And they’ll stand behind whichever candidate they think gives them the most. And they’ll align themselves with whichever candidate they think will win, as that’s the candidate that’s more likely to give them what they want. That doesn’t mean they all do that, but you can bet that most of them do.

    Why should we expect them to behave any differentliy than everyone else? You do what benefits you most. The only difference is how wide-reaching our view is of what benefits us. Some people think they benefit when everyone benefits, some people want their party to benefit, and some people only look out for themselves. But we shouldn’t delude ourselves into thinking these super-delegates will all have the party’s best interests in mind. Most of them just want to side with the winner.

  • It’s funny that the Clinton’s are courting the military vote by saying she would be a great Commander in Chief. What? Didn’t Billy Bob say he hated the military? Weren’t they use commissioned officers, some as high as Colonels as waiters at catered parties? And, when they were ”outed” for this misuse of the military and were told they could not require that from the military reply, then when what ——-good are they? Commander in Chief, indeed. Go Obama!!!

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