Millions of conspiracy theorists — or a poorly-worded question?

Since the Bush administration has to date blocked all serious investigations, I have one question: Why would anyone give them the benefit of the doubt?

This is just like the impeachment story. Only the DFHs believe. For now.

I agree – I want to see the questions. There’s nothing at ALL conspiriological about this statement: “Nearly two-thirds of Americans think it is possible that some federal officials had specific warnings of the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks on New York and Washington, but chose to ignore those warnings”

Hell, I’d believe it. Not because the people who had warnings were out to see major damage done to the US, or because there was any “conspiracy” to make sure that the attacks happened. But because intelligence officers see all kinds of warnings all of the time – and they have to weed out the credible from the incredible.

Hell point (3) in your post is the story that proves the point – there WAS an FBI agent who knew that bin Laden was trying to recruit people to get flight training in the US. She sent that memo to HQ and it was ignored – because the folks in HQ didn’t make the connection between “training pilots” and “training suicide pilots” until things collapsed.

Depending on how the question was worded, I probably would be in that 2/3 of the population being discounted as “conspiracy theorists” in this poll. Let’s see how the question was worded and the actual responses offered before we shrug off 2/3 of our population as a bunch of paranoid nutters, shall we?

The way the question was worded, the answers given included the conspiracy-believers as well as everybody else along the spectrum

…more than a third believe in a broad smorgasbord of conspiracy theories including the attacks, international plots to rig oil prices, the plot to assassinate President John F. Kennedy in 1963 and the government’s knowledge of intelligent life from other worlds.

I think it’s interesting that (apparently) 2/3rds of the people questioned agree that the administration had warnings about the attacks but ignored them (aside from the conspiracy theorists mentioned above), but didn’t we all hear Condoleeza Rice read the title of that PDB on C-Span and the sputtering astonishment of her questioners? And we know Bush ignored that warning, important enough to be sent to him from Washington while he was in Crawford. It isn’t nuts to conclude that the administration ignored the warning, it’s fact.

But the rest?

I am convinced that really wild and unfounded “government conspiracies” flourish when the government lies to its citizens — the citizenry then tries to fill in the blanks about all “mysteries”. While there are always people in the population who border on paranoia, when there’s a traumatic loss of trust in a government, it’s very easy to place the very worst interpretation on every action, every piece of information, simply because people get so tired of trying to make reason provide the answers. It creates a tension where one imagines the worst-case scenario and develops attitudes or answers for resolving the imagined scenario, true or not.

2/3 of the American public are “idiots”?

Entirely plausible.

30something % approve of George Bush. That’s half way there.

Best description ever on 9-11 truthers.

“I should say that the hardest thing for me in dealing with the Truthers is this feeling of being intimidated by how ridiculous they are. It would take a comic genius to really do them justice and the fear of falling short of that can be paralyzing. If you’ve ever seen the movie Eating Raoul there’s this scene where Paul Bland throws an electric bug-zapper into a hot tub full of swingers and they all just sort of fall naked and limp all at once. It’s hilarious. Somebody, and it may very well not be me, is going to write the electric bug-zapper of 9/11-debunker essays. But it’s going to have to be an inspired effort, not something you just toss off in one night. I really wish Mark Twain were alive for that reason. A Jim Fetzer’s Literary Offenses would potentially be one of the funniest things ever written in the English language.”

– Matt Taibbi, Rolling Stone

…they all just sort of fall naked and limp all at once. It’s hilarious…

Ha ha, people being murdered is funny.

What a great argument!

It does NOT depend on how the question was worded! I believe that there are numerous unanswered questions relating to 9/11.

On what basis are we supposed to trust the Bushites?
Where was Cheney & what was he doing on the morning of 9/11?
Can anyone really believe the ‘official’ story about WTC7?
What is explanation for the Israelis arrested & released in New Jersey?
On what basis can the flights carrying Saudis out of the country during the air shutdown be justified?

Until there is a real investigation, I will continue to believe the worst about the Bushite administration. They have done NOTHING to earn my trust!

Re Matt Taibibi: On the one hand I think “Let It Happen On Purpose” may indeed describe the otherwise-hard to fathom lack of concern or urgency with which the warnings were met. We’re not just talking about reports lost “down in the bureaucracy somewhere,” but things like Clarke’s attempts to beat the drums about this stuff, which were met with stony indifference. It may not have happened that way, but would I put it past Cheney–who was supposed to be in charge of anti-terrorist strategy and did absolutely nothing, or worse–to have LIHOP? Not for a minute. I could easily imagine that cynical b*****d deciding that “some kind of incident” would not necessarily be a bad thing for Cheneyism and therefore for the country. Wake ’em up, show ‘m they need strong autocratic leadership, etc. “Clean it all up, related and unrelated” as his protege Rummy wrote on 9/12/01.

On the other hand, I think “Fenimore Cooper’s Literary Offenses” is one of the funniest pieces in the English language.

Say what you like you can’t ignore your intuition..you know…the thought you had when Bush was informed of the attacks and just sat there through the reading of “My Pet Goat” and you watched him being informed…and you watched him sit there.

7/7 in England had practice exercises of pretend bombing of subway at the same time it was happening. “Is this real world”

Cheney leading practice drill of airline hijacks at the same time it was happening. “Is this real world or exercise”?

Do you know the odds of that happening. Worse than winning the lottery. We must ignore what we cannot accept. The only way to not know is to not want to know. Is that why you want no part of it CB?

The best conspiracy is the one that makes itself the most unbelievable. One way to keep it that way is to make fun and confuse the “theory” while ignoring the evidence or suppressing it. Are you aware of the evidence? Are you closed minded? Rejection before investigation ensures the success of any conspiracy.

Re: naschkatze @ #20
I say follow the money…

Ah, but you forget that the 9/11 Commission concluded that “the origin of the money used for the 9/11 attacks…is of little practical significance.”

So, I thought it was ironic that I am required to take Patriot Enabling Act-mandated anti-money laundering training for my job.

I love it–62% believe at least that BushCo LIHOP. Presumably that doesn’t include any of the 33% or so Americans who approve of Bush’s performance as President. Which leaves 5% of people who aren’t part of the 33% braindead or the 62% beginning to realize just how bad things are. Who are those 5% I wonder? Hate Bush, but have no doubts that 9/11 was a bonafide attack on America by Muslim terrorists with no help from anyone “on the inside”.

Now understand, the whole idea that the planes alone could cause the towers to collapse (all three towers, WTC7 wasn’t hit by a plane) is absurd. Especially absurd when you consider how many eyewitnesses reported explosions going off al over the place and the existing video evidence of explosions and molten iron pouring out of at least the south tower.

In other words, it’s not as bad as those who think 62% of Americans believe LIHOP think it is–it’s MUCH worse (or better depending on how you look at it!) 62% of Americans are capable of understanding that on some level we have been lied to about 9/11. The percentage split between believers in LIHOP and those who understand the truth is much worse and involves more than Bush/Cheney, i.e. that the WTC was demolished with explosives as part of a scheme to a) provatize the WTC, b) demolish it (otherwise illegal to do, but very much desired by many people) and c) have the insurance pay for a brand new partially privatized modern complex. Urban renewal, mob style. Which mob is the question…

bottom line,bush and his rich friends don’t care about you, but you cared enought about them to put them in office two times and now your’ll are like a bunch of cry babies crying about the shit that is going on.do your homework and vote for the person who will lead all of us and this country as one.think about it? not for the jews,far-right christians(the KKK),gays you get the picture.all this shit about if your not a republican your not an american has to go.the way they are talking you would think they are the enemy.be smart 2008 is not that long from now.

…there were no bodies anywhere…

Umm… Right. We really didn’t expect any from when an aircraft slams straight into a solid plane.

Look up the Valuejet 592 crash footage. Look similar?

One either has to believe in the laws of physics relative to conservation of momentum or trust that the official narrative of the 911 atrocity is true. They are mutually exclusive.

Objects or buildings that fall at a free-fall rate fall with no resistance. Discounting air resistance, this is the case with WTC1, 2 and especially building 7. The widely trumpeted “pancake collapse theory” would introduce significant resistance as upper floors would have to crash through many tens of stories of undamaged structure. The actual rate of the collapse of these three structures as corroborated by unspinnable video evidence, exposes the fallacious nature of the official explanation. A free-fall rate of collapse is only possible if all structural integrity is eliminated just ahead of the collapse wave. This set of parameters can only be accounted for by the controlled demolition of these buildings.

Every American has to decide whether to trust this government and corporate controlled news media or whether to apply some critical thinking skills in the evaluation of widely disseminated information concerning the 911 atrocity. Since my government has a long history of protecting me from the truth “for my own good”, I’ll stick with Newton and Galileo.

A thorough treatment of this topic, including a peer reviewed academic treatise, can be considered at http://www.stj911.org/.

The are many, many anomalies that point towards complicity of some elements of the government in the events of 9/11. Bear in mind as well that LIHOP is logically equivalent to MIHOP. LIes of omission and lies of commission are … lies. Trouble with the ‘official conspiracy theory’ is that the physics don’t add up. And there are just too many events that are either unbelievably coincidental and there are many that point directly to gov. involvement (such as WTC 7’s demolition).

NIST’s 10,000 page report has also been thoroughly studied and, interestingly, it’s conclusions ignore the data derived from its own empirical studies as well as reams of testimony and data from other sources that did not fit into the official government conspiracy theory…. and not only does NIST not make the case for collapse initiation, it purposefully avoids discussing the mechanism of the collapse itself.

However, others have looked at it. For example,
Perhaps you should read:

Collapse Time Calculations for WTC 1 (May 9, 2007)
Dr. Kenneth Kuttler, Professor of Mathematics, in which he considers two models of collapse. The most interesting is the:

“The floating floor model:
The towers had columns which supported the floors. These were on the outside and on the core. The idealized problem I will consider is to remove all the columns and consider only the floors, pretending they are floating in the air and do not move till struck. I will consider the collapse of this idealized tower of floating floors under the assumption that all collisions are inelastic. If only gravity is involved in collapse and if both the real tower and the idealized tower fall in the same manner, this idealized tower of floating floors should fall faster than the actual tower because in the idealized tower there is no vertical support whatever, and in the real tower, there were many columns. It is assumed the floors fell in such a way that they encountered a succession of lower stationary floors as described in the above quote from the NIST report.”

…..and finds that even when one ignores all of the structural steel framework and merely imagines all those floors just hanging there in the air without any structural support whatsoever, calculated collapse times far exceed actual measured collapse times (both low and high estimates). In other words, structural supports, concrete and all the rest had to be blown out of the way to achieve the actual recorded collapse times. And indeed, that is precisely what you see when you watch recordings of the events. Huge beams blown out laterally. Other material being blown upward. Hundreds of millimeter-long human bone fragments blown on to the top of the Deutche Bank roof. (Gee, just how does that happen in a gravity driven collapse?) Thick pulverized concrete dust deposited all over Manhattan.

One might also consider that well over 200 architects and engineers at Richard Gage’s (architect) site agree that the government’s ‘official conspiracy theory’ doesn’t hold water and are calling for a new investigation.

The apologists for the government’s ‘official conspiracy theory’ can’t account for these phenomena nor can they show where the requisite energy came from. Even NIST ignored the conservation of momentum (and of the conservation of angular momentum) just as some folks posting here ignore conservation of momentum and energy requirements. Those arguing in support of the ‘official government conspiracy theory’ choose to ignore the laws of physics so I’m not sure what reality they’re operating in. I guess it’s ‘Their Own Little World’…. devoid of the laws of physics but replete with their own silly imaginings and delusions.

However, focusing on the WTC demolitions ignores the huge mass of other data, other events (such as FOUR successful hijackings occurred – in each of which establish protocols had to be violated and which seasoned pilots state is an absolute impossibility) – occurred on that date that all point to complicity of some elements of the government and perhaps forces from other nations as well.

9/11 was simply another in that long long list of false flag — ‘psyop’ operations (see the ‘wannabe’ Operation Northwoods, Operation Gladio, the Gulf of Tonkin deception, FDR and Pearl Harbor, the Reichstag fire, etc., etc. )that governments have used to terrorize their own populations into supporting increased militarization, wars against other nations and, in most cases, increased fascism within their own borders.

That last, for example, has certainly been the case in the U.S. with the treasonous destruction of Constitutional rights via the obscene Patriot Act, the Military Commissions Act, the Warner Defense Authorization Act, Presidential Directives (esp. #51), creation of FEMA detention camps and now the new ‘thought crimes’ bill sitting in the senate.

Remember, as well, that military and logistical forces had already been put in place to invade Afghanistan -prior – to 9/11. The plans for the invasion were on Bush’s desk – prior – to 9/11, other countries were aware (such as Australia) months – prior – to 9/11 that the U.S. intended to invade Afghanistan in Oct. ’01. U.S. interests met with the Taliban several times before 9/11 to make their ‘offerings’. But the Taliban refused to allow Cheney and Enron and the oil companies to build the pipeline across Afghanistan to carry the recently discovered 500 billion barrels of oil and natural gas out of the Caspian Sea basin… too bad for the Taliban, eh? What we can’t buy, we’ll invade, murder and steal to obtain.

While peaking oil (and other natural) resources were certainly driving the desire to fabricate an excuse for invasion and war, it must be noted as that the CIA certainly did not like the Taliban’s curtailing the opium crops… profits from which had supported CIA black ops for years (also well-documented).

The government also wished to move the bases that had been in Saudi Arabia into Iraq (and thus avoid the ire of the Wahabists) in order to set the stage for the next big international war crime – aggressive war to steal Iran’s and Central Asia’s resources. Unfortunately for the neocon/neolib middle managers, Russia, China and the Shanghai Cooperation Organization now stand firmly against Imperial America’s goals of conquest. But war with Russia and China were always the Neocon’s endgame.

Oh, and also regarding 9/11, the Patriot Act was written before 9/11 as well. And the 2 senators’ offices to receive mail containing U.S. military grade anthrax were those of Tom Daschle and Patrick Leahy…. both objecting to the Patriot Act and standing in the way of its passage. Go Figure.

All of this information is well referenced and available for perusal. You might begin with Paul Thompson’s timeline and/or many other journals (e.g. journalof911studies dot com, ae911truth dot org (architects and engineers for 911 truth), Jim Hoffman’s excellent site, 911research dot com, etc.) There is so much well-documented information available that it is no surprise that many, including Shermer, avoid addressing that data and the physics.

There will always be those who hesitate to look because they are afraid to see. Cognitive dissonance is a powerful psychological force supporting denial. But interestingly, millions upon millions of people in the U.S. and even more world wide are beginning to open their eyes and actually look around themselves…. and what they are seeing about the U.S. and it’s allied transnational corporate and financial powers and the military industrial media complex ain’t a pretty sight.

Mostly Mockingbirds (remember the CIA’s Operation Mockingbird – it hasn’t gone away you know) and Pentagon operatives (see Mike Whitney’s and BBC FOIA obtained data in – ‘The Pentagon’s War on the Internet’) are always available to argue in support of the government’s ‘official’ conspiracy theory.

For those of you who do not know, from ‘The Pentagon’s War on the Internet’:
[Information Operations Roadmap (IOR) recommends that psychological operations (Psyops) “should consider a range of technologies to disseminate propaganda in enemy territory: unmanned aerial vehicles, “miniaturized, scatterable public address systems”, wireless devices, cellular phones and the internet.” “No idea is too costly or too far-fetched that it escapes the serious consideration of the Pentagon chieftains.
The War Dept. is planning to insert itself into every area of the internet from blogs to chat rooms, from leftist web sites to editorial commentary. The objective is to challenge any tidbit of information that appears on the web that may counter the official narrative; the fairytale of benign American intervention to promote democracy and human rights across the planet. “]
 
And finally, about 9/11. Always ask, cui bono? There is only one answer. (and it don’t include you or me)

The folks who get so upset when anybody challenges their pleasant little consensus trance world just strike me as terribly naive and woefully uninformed. And worse.

m.

The 911 conspiracy thinkers point to a mountain of loose ends. Thermite to melt the steel. Implausibilty the buildings could fall from a regular plane fire. Explosions from planted bombs. No U.S. Air Force all day. The collapse of WTC 7. Israeli dancers. The pentagon attack killed those assigned to track down the missing 2.1 trillion dollars & destroyed the evidence, etc etc etc. etc. etc.

These issues have been totally dismissed by those who say Al-Qaidah did it. And Al-Qaidah did it only by crashing a few planes into the buildings. All the conspiracy stuff never happened. Just a few naughty planes. Full stop.

What about a compromise?

Why not acknowledge all the loose ends like thermite, US air force ‘no show’, planted bombs, Israeli dancers etc etc…. and blame it Al-Qaidah.

How plausible is that?

Anyone who believes the official story hasn’t done their research, is a sheep, or they are just not very intelligent.

http://911truth.org

Please do scroll down this web site and don’t miss Tony Blair’s class mate picture
http://disc.yourwebapps.com/discussion.cgi?id=149495;article=116960;show_parent=1
and do checkout the video of Edna Cortin 911on Youtube
911 attacks could only been accomplished by CIA/MOSSAD and approval by governments. You don’t see any politician yelling for any meanful investigation–do you ?
Check out the NY police museum–has several hand guns of 911 found melted and fused to concrete.
And the author-suggests he does not believe it was an inside job–Get alife fool!

Anyone who thinks that the ValueJet 592 crash illustrates how wreckage and/or bodies will not be found at a crash site, needs to do a little more research. It is true that the Value Jet crash has very little surface indicators. Why should it? The plane crashed in a near-vertical nose down attitude…into a swamp! The wreckage buried itself tens of feet deep into the mud and muck lying under the several feet of water. The water then covered over the hole. Why would any thinking person compare the ValueJet crash with the Shanksville crash?

All kidding aside, anyone who says that the official story is true is either 1) lying, or 2) unintentionally ignorant, or 3) intentionally ignorant. At this point I would say that the few remaining “19 Arabs Conspiracy” supporters are mostly in group 3.

At the time of Ramzi Yousef’s conviction, Associated Press quoted “top US intelligence and law enforcement officials” who helped gather information used to prosecute him. They said they were very concerned about information gathered in the Philippines regarding his uncle. They said that they suspected that “foreign-born terrorists” were already training at US flight schools, “including secure US military bases,” and plotting to hijack airliners and fly them into the WTC, the Pentagon, and maybe even a nuclear plant.

I knew two things right then: these officials were not going to grow less concerned as weeks passed with no arrests, but now that the targets and method were public, NORAD and FAA would begin practicing to intercept the planes and prevent the attacks. I was right. I thought I knew one more thing: we’d never hear the end of this sensational story until it ended with arrests. All the same, its publication raised the risk of copycats, so air defenses would still be essential.

I knew one other thing: not one insurer in Manhattan had missed the news of another planned attack on the WTC. The first attack had changed the US insurance industry forever, and a second would change it even more. The story must be making its rounds among insurers, pilots, and whichever intelligence and law enforcement officials did not already know.

As the months passed, I scoured the news for an update. Somehow these brave protectors of the realm had grown mute, and the press had begun ignoring the story. Why would they do that? I thought they printed whatever would sell.

I began to wonder what on Earth could make these officials, editors and reporters shut up about the story. Surely all that was needed was public knowledge; once the element of surprise had been destroyed completely, the attack would be impossible. Mere words could prevent it from succeeding. Even if NORAD and FAA did nothing, they could simply let it be known that they were ready, and the risk of interception would neuter the gambit.

By July, 1999, the story had never reappeared. I knew the plotters must realize they could still surprise a lot of people.

When Shrub announced, I began looking at his record in Texas. Nothing he had done as governor had provided him with a record on which to run. No foreign policy experience; all-time record for executions; abuse of eminent domain; tax fraud, and the rise of Texas to the top of the list of polluted states. He would need some help to win.

It was then that I remembered what a classmate had told me in 1980. She said that Reagan was stupid, but that now that he had broken his campaign promise not to run with Bush, she would hold her nose and vote for him. I asked why. She said, “Look, sometimes you need to move fast, and Congress only gets in the way. They want to be popular, so they can be re-elected. They can’t be counted on to do the unpopular things necessary to maintain our standard of living.”

“Do you mean you want Bush in power so he can defy the will of the governed?”

“Look,” she said, “All I care about is having nice things.” One doesn’t get nice things by doing nice things, she explained, and said “Let’s face it, if I were starving, and Lenin promised me food, I’d fight for him too.”

Great. Bush was like Lenin, and that’s why he was a good choice.

“With his CIA connections, he will become president, and when he does, three Supreme Court justices will be too old to continue in their jobs. They’ll either die or retire, and when they Bush replaces them, that’s the beauty of this plan, because those appointments are for life, and that leaves his mark for the next generation, when one of his sons might be eligible.” Apparently this was good because we’d have another secretive leader who could defy his subjects.

After the Iran-Contra gang survived their slaps on the wrist, it was pretty clear what kind of defiance we might expect. After all, since few would vote for GW’s record as governor, the rest of his supporters would likely be voting for a repeat of Poppy’s global narcoterrorism. When I saw a certain element praise Ollie North for lying to Congress and the public, I knew my former classmate was just one member of a voting bloc. Iran-Contra killed thousands, including US citizens. It seemed that gang’s support for terrorism abroad could not be kept offshore forever if it continued.

By July 2, 1999, I had brooded over this daily for nearly two years. Suddenly it occurred to me that with decades of planning at stake, a need to seal his dad’s sordid records, and so much to gain, there was ample incentive to rig the election. Reagan and Clinton had each unilaterally declared a “war on terror,” but if planes hit the WTC and Pentagon as predicted, trillions of dollars would change hands in just a few days. Some US citizens will kill for sixty dollars. More might do it for real money.

It occurred to me that the only thing we didn’t know from public sources was the date. Was it possible to derive the date by logic and strategy, just as my classmate had seen so far ahead?

Spectacular targets called for a spectacular date, but US citizens aren’t famous for math. I couldn’t think of a number with emotional resonance for all of them, regardless of age, gender, class or ethnic background. But if the Bush gang rigged the elections, they’d be caught. Discrepancies would emerge, and as the boring arithmetic finally made its way to the public, the theft would become obvious. A war would make it moot.

If that were my goal, I’d want the attacks to fall late in the first year, but before the anniversary of the stolen election. Late enough to sideline whistleblowers and put company men in place, but early enough to shrug off as beginner’s bad luck. Which date in that range would amplify the fear? Well, maybe there was one number. The number for danger and rescue. It was perfect. Falling in the first year of the new millennium, the attacks might be remembered for a thousand years. If they fell on 9/11, they’d carry a subtext: no cops in the sky. Who you gonna call?

Thousands of innocent people died because of Iran-Contra, between the cocaine shipped into the US and the death squads we ran in South America. How much more depraved would one have to be to make sure the plotters were protected until they could play their roles? Not very much, I thought.

At that moment I became absolutely convinced that the attacks were scheduled for 9/11/2001. I’m not famous, and I’m no expert. Except for my classmate’s tip about a Bush dynasty, I’d used only public information. No one can prove something that hasn’t happened yet. There was no reason for anyone to listen to me. But I did try to tell as many people as possible and to make it memorable. I’ll never know how many people heard me, but I know that hundreds must have.

There’s no way I’m smarter or better informed than the prosecution team who put Ramzi Yousef away for 240 years. My only consolation is that I have a bigger mouth. But if I could put all that together two years before the attacks, then many other people must have as well.

As it happened, the date the final tally for the popular vote was scheduled for release was September 11, 2001.

If you want to read a bit about official preparations to exploit the attacks, check out

911 Commissioners Kean & Hamilton have stated that they were obstructed from examining pertinent info about finding the responsible parties of the 911 massacre. 911 Commissioner Max Cleland resigned over a stifled and illegitimate investigation. Henery Kissinger had to step down from heading the 911 Commission because of a conflict of interest: his law practice represented the Bin laden family. He was replaced with Zelikow, a Bush insider 911 family members tried to have removed. Former head of the FBI Louis Freeh has said that the Commission was a coverup and we still need a real investigation. I could go on.

People, come on already, we need to investigate 911 to discover the truth, no matter what it is. If the government has nothing to hide they have nothing to fear.

melted and steel in the sublevels of the three towers

weeks after 911

on video

like in a foundry

flowing like lava

jet fools need to engraciate themselves with a credible explanation

“Letting it happen” is an inadequate theory, little better than the official, bush approved theory. Dick Cheney was in charge of exercises that largely gamed the “secnario” that, in fact, happened! Uh huh!