Moving the ball forward on Maliki’s support for Obama, withdrawal

If you were away from the news over the weekend, you may not have heard about a game-changing moment in the presidential campaign. Just as Barack Obama was poised to visit Iraq, Prime Minister Nuri al-Maliki, unprompted, announced his belief that Obama’s withdrawal policy “would be the right time timeframe for a withdrawal,” and is “more realistic.” Maliki added that a McCain policy of “artificially extending the stay of U.S. troops” would “cause problems,” and concluded that Republican talking points in general are, at their core, mistaken: “The Americans have found it difficult to agree on a concrete timetable for the exit because it seems like an admission of defeat to them. But that isn’t the case at all.”

For McCain, this is rather devastating. Josh Marshall explained, “Maliki has now handed Obama the trump card of all trump cards with which to parry all of McCain’s attacks.” Or, as a prominent Republican strategist who occasionally provides advice to the McCain campaign told the Atlantic’s Marc Ambinder, “We’re fucked.”

We’ve learned a few important details over the last 24 hours. First, a rather odd statement released by U.S. Central Command on the Maliki government’s behalf suggesting Maliki was “misunderstood and mistranslated” — but the statement only came after the Bush administration leaned on Maliki’s office to help put a lid on this public-relations disaster for Bush and McCain.

The statement by an aide to Iraqi Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki calling his remarks in Der Spiegel “misinterpreted and mistranslated” followed a call to the prime minister’s office from U.S. government officials in Iraq. […]

[A]fter the Spiegel interview was published and began generating headlines Saturday, officials at the U.S. embassy in Baghdad contacted Maliki’s office to express concern and seek clarification on the remarks, according to White House spokesman Scott Stanzel. Later in the day, a Maliki aide released a statement saying the remarks had been misinterpreted, though without citing specific comments.

Not exactly the kind of development that helps the Bush/McCain case.

Second, and more importantly, the notion that Der Spiegel “misinterpreted and mistranslated” Maliki’s endorsement of Obama’s policy has been definitely put to rest. The initial report was accurate, and Maliki said what he’d been quoted as saying.

The NYT dropped the ball in its Sunday edition, but does some solid reporting today.

“Unfortunately, Der Spiegel was not accurate,” [the Maliki government’s spokesman, Ali al-Dabbagh] said Sunday by telephone. “I have the recording of the voice of Mr. Maliki. We even listened to the translation.”

But the interpreter for the interview works for Mr. Maliki’s office, not the magazine. And in an audio recording of Mr. Maliki’s interview that Der Spiegel provided to The New York Times, Mr. Maliki seemed to state a clear affinity for Mr. Obama’s position, bringing it up on his own in an answer to a general question on troop presence.

The following is a direct translation from the Arabic of Mr. Maliki’s comments by The Times: “Obama’s remarks that — if he takes office — in 16 months he would withdraw the forces, we think that this period could increase or decrease a little, but that it could be suitable to end the presence of the forces in Iraq.”

He continued: “Who wants to exit in a quicker way has a better assessment of the situation in Iraq.”

It sounds like Maliki accidentally said what he actually believes. Indeed, Der Spiegel didn’t even bring up Obama’s name — Maliki did.

As for the bigger picture, the AP’s Robert Reid had some smart analysis.

The Iraqi prime minister’s seeming endorsement of Barack Obama’s troop withdrawal plan is part of Baghdad’s strategy to play U.S. politics for the best deal possible over America’s military mission.

The goal is not necessarily to push out the Americans quickly, but instead give Iraqis a major voice in how long U.S. troops stay and what they will do while still there.

It also is designed to refurbish the nationalist credentials of Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki, who owes his political survival to the steadfast support of President Bush. Now, an increasingly confident Iraqi government seems to be undermining long-standing White House policies on Iraq. […]

With Obama due to visit Iraq soon, al-Maliki’s spokesman Ali al-Dabbagh was quick to discredit the report, saying the prime minister’s remarks were “not conveyed accurately.” A top al-Maliki adviser, Sadiq al-Rikabi, insisted the Iraqi government does not intend to be “part of the electoral campaign in the United States.”

But that is precisely what the Iraqis intended to do: exploit Obama’s position on the war to force the Bush administration into accepting concessions considered unthinkable a few months ago.

That makes a lot of sense. When the Bush administration first started making demands as part of a proposed long-term security agreement, Bushies were making outrageous demands about long-term bases and control of Iraqi airspace. Iraqis balked.

Now, after weeks of public comments about withdrawal timelines, the Bush gang is suddenly more flexible, even agreeing to a “general time horizon” for the removal of U.S. troops.

Does this mean Maliki’s endorsement of the Obama policy was just about currying favor with Iraqi voters? In some ways, it almost doesn’t matter — as Matt Yglesias explained over the weekend, “Even granting the premise that Maliki’s statements are purely about Iraqi domestic politics, all this amounts to is the fact that Barack Obama’s plan for Iraq is, according to both the Maliki government and the McCain campaign’s analysis, the only way forward that’s politically viable in Iraq.”

the AP’s Robert Reid had some smart analysis

Smart analysis? I thought that was frowned-upon at the AP.

  • Lame Ducky’s reality control powers are finally weakening. It’s getting difficult to make the puppet’s mouth move correctly, lucky we have CENTCOM to straighten out the matter. Nothing to see here, move along please.

  • Bushco have no idea what diplomacy is all about, or how to deal with a media that isn’t in their back pocket. Maliaki is playing hardball, and more power to him. I would expect a rapid change of subject, or a Maliaki assassination (or at least an attempt) some time soon. The Bushco universe is collapsing, and that may be dangerous.

  • and yet, it still irritates me that the msm has totally ignored this story. so, how can it be a game changer if nobody hears about it? (if a tree falls in the woods, etc……)

  • Anybody consider the possibility that Maliki’s endorsement might hurt Obama? I mean- most Amerians can’t name our own vice-president, for goodness sake. There may be a lot of voters for whom an endorsement of Obama by the leader of a middle eastern country full of terrorists would be seen as a definite reason to vote for McCain.

    “After all, Iraq is the same country that Saddam Hussein and Obama Bin Laden comes from!”

  • “and yet, it still irritates me that the msm has totally ignored this story”

    I think it will gain traction. The Obama campaign will use it to its full advantage, and coming as he begins his highly covered and analyzed trip abroad it will be a major topic. It will also force John McCain into desperate defence mode as well as the Bush Administration linking the two even tighter.

    I think the fact that Der Speigel taped the interview and released the tapes so quickly spells really bad news for Bush/McCain. It bolsters Obama’s claim and it raises true suspicions about the “retraction.” It looks like a strong arm tactic.

    The media may not want to focus on it, but it won’t go away. Its become a deadly weapon in the Obama campaign’s arsenal.

  • It sounds like Maliki accidentally said what he actually believes.

    No. There’s a lot of game-playing going on here, and Maliki obviously has his own motives, but there is no way a professional politician “accidentally” makes that kind of mistake. He knew what he was going to say, and there are clearly different messages coming from Maliki depending on the intended audience.

  • Obama was not satisfied and was poised not to visit Iraq to meet the U.S.Marines.this called out to be an unsatisfaction for the Marines,The Troops were totally unhappy about this case.Sometimes there might be another situation which did not let him come.
    ………………………
    Thushara
    Addiction Recovery Oklahoma

  • Looks like Operation Chaos didn’t work as well as hoped, and that the Iraqi government is getting enough confidence to kick out the oil-soaked occupiers. I’m sure Bush was hoping that they’d be so vulnerable that they’d take whatever we offered them.

    SaintZak is right, this will probably cause McCain to come unglued. Should be fun!

  • Looks like the Shi’ite is hitting the fan this morning – McCain surrogates are facing tough questions on CNN & MSNBC, at least.

    The GOP damage control talking points are clear and simple: (Bobby Jindal, CNN, this morning)

    (1) Maybe we can withdraw faster than we thought, because the surge is working.
    (2) The surge was McCain’s idea even before Bush announced it. Obama was against it.
    (3) Both Obama and Maliki have elections to win. McCain is just pure principle.
    (4) Did I mention the McCain-surge is working?

    Needless to say, CNN did not dispute that the McCain surge is working. That’s what we have to fight back on.

    http://vetsforobama.org/2008/07/14/marketing-a-myth-how-john-mccain-actually-got-the-surge-wrong/

  • A victory for McCain.

    Obama has been calling for a 16 month timetable for over 14 months. If that had come to fruition, Iraq would have been lost (as Harry Reid had already declared). McCain had been calling for a new strategy for years and when it was finally implemented, security is restored.
    Now Obama wants to claim this new security as some sort of perverted justification of his disingenuous policy. Obama is going to continue arguing for a 16 month timetable until, thanks to the gains made possible by the surge, we actually are able to withdrawal in 16 months- at which point Obama acts like he was right all along. He wants to leave a strikeforce behind, later when asked about it, he declared he never said that- he said guards wuold be left for the US Embassy.
    the previous comments to this article show a lack of knowledge/understanding on the events taking place from the War in Iraq, the status of US diplomacy, etc. The only reasonably intelligent comment came from Rich who declared “Maliaki is playing hardball, and more power to him” but apparently didn’t read and consider the obvious analysis put forth in the article by Robert Reid. wake up.

  • “Needless to say, CNN did not dispute that the McCain surge is working. That’s what we have to fight back on.”

    LOL. idiocy.
    wake up.

  • “Did I mention the McCain-surge is working?”

    Very soon the surge will be referred to as “The McCain Doctrine.”

  • “Looks like Operation Chaos didn’t work as well as hoped, and that the Iraqi government is getting enough confidence to kick out the oil-soaked occupiers. I’m sure Bush was hoping that they’d be so vulnerable that they’d take whatever we offered them.”

    again LOL. yet its Bush who authorized the surge to help the Iraqi gov’t and is one of Maliki’s staunchest supporters. the democrats were the ones who wanted to leave Iraq in turmoil and government collapse. but here you sit trying to argue that Bush wants Iraq to be vulnerable and that American presence in Iraq is not appreciated by Iraqi citizens and the government. come back to reality.

  • Which Republican will be the first to use the standard line of the African colonizer: “We have to stay because they aren’t ready to rule themselves”?

  • MSNBC was reporting about 30 minutes ago that the Iraqi government has come out and said plainly — in English — that they would like to see US troops out by 2010, but I can’t find this reported on any news site or blog this morning.

  • And so what does the Repiglican/Corporate/Media=Mafia do this am to try to counteract Maliki and Obama ? All three of the Corporate Media’s morning shows, all three, put on McBush to make yet more lies and deceptions …. And, no, this WAS NOT A COORDINATED EFFORT by the corporate media .. nope, had it planned all along …

  • I love the sound of Republican desperation in the morning. That whirring, whining, squealing sound that’s akin to pigs as they’re loaded into the restraint conveyor and sent on their way to the kill room at a slaughterhouse.

    Ali al-Dabbagh (the “Iraqi face of CentCom”) has clearly failed in his mission to shut this down. Don’t be surprised if they (CentCom) resort to Saddam’s old tactic of providing “handlers” for anyone who talks to Obama while he’s in Iraq….

  • What seems to have failed most spectacularly is the takeover of Iraqi oil fields by American companies. This was the primary goal of our invasion of Iraq and up until a few weeks ago seemed a certainty. The escalation was conveniently timed to force the issue before the Bush crime family would leave office. Unfortunately for Bush the Iraqis do not believe that McCain will be the next president or are willing to wait before giving away their oil.

    As far as greater safety in Iraq, that is all relative. It is still not safe to drive from the airport to Baghdad. It is still not safe to leave your house and perform basic necessities like shopping for food. There are still over 4 million Iraqi refugees that cannot move back home for fear of their lives. If greater safety was the real reason for the escalation of American forces then that objective has not been very successful either.

  • you sit trying to argue that Bush wants Iraq to be vulnerable and that American presence in Iraq is not appreciated by Iraqi citizens and the government.

    “Obama’s remarks that — if he takes office — in 16 months he would withdraw the forces, we think that this period could increase or decrease a little, but that it could be suitable to end the presence of the forces in Iraq.” He continued: “Who wants to exit in a quicker way has a better assessment of the situation in Iraq.”

    Try again?

  • and why is it now possible that we could possibly withdraw in 16 months? the surge mccain advocated, obama opposed it and advocated for a swift withdrawal.
    and why is it now possible that when we withdraw it will be in victory not retreat? the surge mccain advocated.
    and why is it now that while Obama says he will listen to the commanders who say such a withdrawal would be premature and irresponsible, he continues to say the opposite?
    and why is it now that he declares his strategy on the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq before he takes his “fact-finding” mission?
    and why is it now that Maliki is making such public comments that so obviously go against most everything he and other members of the Iraqi government have been saying about timetables for withdrawal? the surge advocated by McCain worked and now Maliki must win the election.

    come back to reality.

  • “Since the beginning of this year, military experts that I’ve talked with argue that the fall-off in violence in Iraq had very little to do with the increase in American troop levels — and everything to do with actually talking with and supporting the previous insurgents. Recent published reports confirm that talks with the insurgents began all the way back in December of 2003, when military officers met with Sunni insurgent leaders in Amman, Jordan. Not only that, but when those talks were actually opposed by the administration, the military went ahead with the talks anyway.

    But don’t take my word for it, go back and read what General David Petraeus told the Congress in April of 2007, before the surge was actually in place. Back then, Patraeus told the Congress that the levels of violence in Iraq were down significantly and that “the tribes” were the key to that transformation. Let me repeat that: recruiting the Sunni tribes (and not the surge) has been the key to success in Iraq, along with the stand-down of the Mahdi Army. Patraeus is not alone in his thinking. The tribes of Anbar joined U.S. forces, according to U.S. Captain Jay McGee — an intelligence officer with the 69th Armored Regiment — because “everyone is convinced Coalition forces are going to leave and they are saying, ‘We do not want Al Qaeda to take control of the area when that happens.” “

    Lt. Gen. Robert C. Gerard (USA, Ret.)

  • thats a fantastic argument gridlock- i’m glad you’re really thinking about the issues in depth. you really raised the level of discussion.

    i don’t usually do this, but i’ll rebut: keep your head firmly planted up your own tush.

    now, lets start elementary school bickering. No you! No you! No you!

  • and in regards to your earlier, actually meaningful post.

    I agree 100% that recent gains in Iraq have come partially through better diplomatic strategy in uniting factions against violent insurgents and terrorists. so let’s thank Bush for improving our strategy there as well as ordering the surge- another vital component of our recent success.

  • Thank you Bush, for opposing talking to the tribes (Baker/Hamilton suggestion) – by the military doing the opposite of what Bush/McCain wanted, violence went down.

    So thanks, Bush for (1) creating the clusterfuck in Iraq, and (2) after losing the election in 2006 being pushed to come up with something, created the Baker/Hamilton group which came up with the diplomatic strategy which Bush/McCain ignored, but the military implemented anyway. After many more U.S. lives were lost we are back to 2005 levels of violence and no political progress.

    Oh, and how’s the wish for 100-year permanent bases working out for Bush/McCain? I’m sure the Oil buddies left messages on your phones?

  • 15.On July 21st, 2008 at 9:38 am, mb said:
    again LOL. yet its Bush who authorized the surge to help the Iraqi gov’t and is one of Maliki’s staunchest supporters.

    Yep, Bush’s Iraq policies will go down in history as a model of military and diplomatic success. Keep smoking whatever that is, it’s some powerful shit.

  • so you’re saying the surge (the only military action i referred to) has been a dismal failure? and as a dismal failure, Bush should be derided for implementing it?

  • a short collection of lies:

    “Oh, and how’s the wish for 100-year permanent bases working out for Bush/McCain? I’m sure the Oil buddies left messages on your phones?” Pure nonsense.
    “(2) after losing the election in 2006 being pushed to come up with something” There was no presidential election in 2006.
    “no political progress.” 15/18 is not progress?

    claims that need support:

    “Thank you Bush, for opposing talking to the tribes (Baker/Hamilton suggestion) – by the military doing the opposite of what Bush/McCain wanted, violence went down.”

  • and why is it now that Maliki is making such public comments that so obviously go against most everything he and other members of the Iraqi government have been saying about timetables for withdrawal? the surge advocated by McCain worked and now Maliki must win the election.

    Why, in the face of an Iraqi government that wants us to leave, would we tell them that we know better, and that we want to stay? It was only until a few days ago that the Bush admin, and McCain, believed that we should stay without any timetable for withdrawal, period. And Iraqis do not want that. Period. We are occupying their country. Since then, Bush/McCain have moved in favor of Obama’s position.

    Meanwhile, if McCain was right about the surge, why is he so obstinate when it comes to getting out, which is what Iraqis want, which is what most US citizens want? McCain continues to support the idea of vague conditions that amounts to little more than an open-ended committment of our troops.

    In response to #30, it’s not a short collection of lies. Bush wanted permanent bases in Iraq. That much is true. And the “lost election” of 2006 was the Congressional elections. Are you that literal that you cannot understand that?

  • Let’s stipulate, regardless of the cause, that fewer American troops are being killed and violence is down in some regions of Iraq, although overall Iraqis are still being killed a fairly strong clip. Given that, what should our national policy toward Iraq be?

    In June, McCain thought that the new relative calm justified the long term presence of US Forces in Iraq. Today, it means that we can start talking about withdrawal. Now McCain has also said that we should only withdrawal victoriously. This suggests that McCain now thinks that something has happened on the ground which qualifies as victory or signals victory is within our grasp. So, what is it?

  • and why is it now possible that we could possibly withdraw in 16 months? the surge mccain advocated, obama opposed it and advocated for a swift withdrawal.

    The response to this is…AND?

    –If the surge is working, and political reconciliation is happening, then why sustain our troop levels, against the will of the Iraqi government? If this is a success, why does McCain then advocate a strategy that would seem to have no basis in reality, i.e., not pressing for a timetable — don’t we want to get the troops home?

    –If the surge is NOT working, why sustain it?

  • “Why, in the face of an Iraqi government that wants us to leave, would we tell them that we know better, and that we want to stay? It was only until a few days ago that the Bush admin, and McCain, believed that we should stay without any timetable for withdrawal, period. And Iraqis do not want that. Period. We are occupying their country. Since then, Bush/McCain have moved in favor of Obama’s position.”

    You seem to base the policy of the entire Iraqi government on one poorly delivered quote from PM Maliki- a quote that is being construed as contrary to most everything he and other government official have said previously. This quote also comes in the midst of a looming election in which Maliki does not want to seem a pawn. Yes, the Iraqi government wants us to leave at some point- just as Bush and McCain want to leave at some point. That point (and the point you along with Harry Reid, Nancy Pelosi, and so many others don’t seem to understand) is that conditions on the ground/state of the Iraqi federal government determine when to pull out. That is what Maliki has always advocated and what the Iraqi government and people have advocated. The conditions are becoming more and more favorable for such a pullout b/c we have won this war with new strategy- a hugely significant part of which was advocated by John McCain. If Obama’s plan had been implemented when he first called for it (at the height of violence and the annoucenement of the surge), we would have around 2 months left to remove the remaining 4 brigades in Iraq and the circumstances surrounding their withdrawal would be radically different. You claim “Bush/McCain” are moving towards Obama’s position. How ridiculous. As conditions improve and time goes on of course we are going to get closer to a 16 month drawdown. To claim this as a shift towards Obama’s position or as a victory for Obama is simply illogical and disingenuous.

    “Meanwhile, if McCain was right about the surge, why is he so obstinate when it comes to getting out, which is what Iraqis want, which is what most US citizens want? McCain continues to support the idea of vague conditions that amounts to little more than an open-ended committment of our troops.”

    You continue to argue indirectly that McCain doesn’t want to “get out” of Iraq- which of course is patently untrue. Your argument, as I see it, should be McCain doesn’t want to withdraw troops fast enough. Your other argument, that conditions based withdrawal as advocated by current US AND Iraqi policy, is erroneous. You also confuse polls saying “the majority of american or Iraqi people want US troops to be brought home” with Obama’s position of being home within his forever sliding 16 month withdrawal regardless of conditions. I want the US troops to be brought home as well- but when conditions are right just like Maliki and the Iraqi people.

  • hooray, we can debate without name calling.

    the question of “if the surge is working and reconciliation is taking place, why oppose a 16 month withdrawal?”

    for caution. as Admiral Mullen said yesterday, a quick withdrawal would be “dangerous” and likely cause destabilization. Why would we jeopardize our significant gains so quickly? The Iraqi government is young and still tenuous- we want it to succeed (that is the goal, not bring troops home regardless of conditions)
    So many continue to claim Maliki’s single inartful quote as if it were his and Iraqi government policy- which it is unequivocally NOT.

  • I agree 100% that recent gains in Iraq have come partially through better diplomatic strategy in uniting factions against violent insurgents and terrorists. so let’s thank Bush for improving our strategy there as well as ordering the surge.

    Apparently you can’t read with your head up McCain’s ass.

    The Lt. Gen said, “when those talks were actually opposed by the administration, the military went ahead with the talks anyway.

    Bush opposed talking with the tribes. So in no way can I thank him for it.

    Besides, we should be focusing on Afghanistan (where the terrorists are located) and the strategy over there. What’s Bush’s strategy there again? Same as McCain’s? I thought so.

  • Does anyone remember why Bush didn’t want a time line? I believe it was because he didn’t want to tell the enemy when we were leaving. Now that the Iraqi army has taken over 10 provinces with hopes of controlling all of them by years end, I don’t see any reason other than safety of the troops why we shouldn’t incorporate the fastest time line that logistics would allow.

  • mb – since you think a 16-month withdrawal will “likely cause destabilization” without any evidence, and Maliki’s quote was “not his” also without any evidence, I think the “debate” ends right here.

  • well that didn’t last long.

    please provide me with a link to the Lt. Gen’s quote and its factual support.

    “Besides, we should be focusing on Afghanistan (where the terrorists are located) and the strategy over there. What’s Bush’s strategy there again? Same as McCain’s? I thought so.”

    LOL. And what exactly do you feel is wrong with the strategy being used in Afghanistan? Not enough troops? It’s expected that the turnaround in Iraq will free up troops for Afghanistan so that should change soon. We’re not being aggressive enough? We’re being too aggressive and civilians are being harmed? What is your criticism (other than Bush being President) of the strategy there? And how is Obama going to change it?

  • You seem to base the policy of the entire Iraqi government on one poorly delivered quote from PM Maliki- a quote that is being construed as contrary to most everything he and other government official have said previously.

    poorly delivered how? Without enough of a flourish or good hand gestures, like finger-pointing or a raised fist?

    contrary to most everything he and others have said previously such as who, when, and where? Name it. He said something similar a couple of weeks ago.

    Furthermore, if the violence has been quelled (which it has), then why, until the last couple of days when his position became untenable, was John McCain in opposition of leaving? He was in opposition, signing on to the vague “as they stand up we stand out” premise that hadn’t gotten anybody anywhere for ages.

  • Yes, not enough troops in Afghanistan. And why aren’t there enough troops? Cuz Bush had to show he wasn’t a wimp like his daddy and take out Saddam.

    What was Bush’s strategy in Afghanistan? Ignore it and focus on Iraq. How would Obama change it? By withdrawing our troops from Iraq and putting them where they should have been in the first place…

    And here is the link to Lt. Gen. Gard’s comments. Read the second paragraph.

  • What gets me is Josh Marshall “…I find McCain’s claim to being ‘right about the surge’ dubious but arguable. ..”

    Why is it so many don’t point out that violence went down before the surge ever began because Petraeus started paying the Sunni insurgents to battle al qaeda and the criminal militias. The whole violent insurrection could have been avoided if Bremmer had not fired the Iraq military in the first place and when Petraeus re-hired them violence started going down immediately. The “splurge” was unnecessary and was used to protect and enable the contract profiteering and wall off or eliminate Sunnis. It was a disastrous policy which was supposedly used to bring political reconciliation…It didn’t. The Kurds have walked out and not returned and the Sunnis resigned. Everything about the surge was a complete failure according to the intention it was brought in to accomplish. It wasn’t even the reason for the decrease in violence.

    There is no argument, only an intimidating angry little man threatening anyone who challenges him, Graham or Lieberman on the issue. They get angry, resentful and intimidating then change the subject. McCain has been wrong on everything and attacks any messenger who has the guts to call him out on it. A more dishonest campaign is hard to find because such dishonesty is usually illuminated by the prerss. Here, it is “Want some sprinkles on those lies Johnny?”

  • btw…Lieberman’s loud mouthed claim that Obama’s policies would have led to al qaeda taking over Iraq or that Iraq would have been in ruin and chaos without the glorious surge is pitiful. st0 we would not have been there in the first place. 2) a policy that would have kept the Iraq army in place could have prevented the violent insurrection that followed their unemployment and prevented al qeda from even getting volunteers into the region. Lieberman’s whole premise is based on a failed policy failing even more where as with Obama we never would have been in the position for Liberman’s doom and gloom predictions to take hold.

    Somebody shut his mouth for him please.

  • “mb – since you think a 16-month withdrawal will “likely cause destabilization” without any evidence, and Maliki’s quote was “not his” also without any evidence, I think the “debate” ends right here.”

    likely destabilization from a hasty withdrawal: Chairmen of the Joint Chief’s Admiral Mullen two days ago.
    —————————————————————————————————
    WALLACE: But I’m asking you in the absence — forget about Obama. Forget about the politics. If I were to say to you, “Let’s set a time line of getting all of our combat troops out within two years,” what do you think would be the consequences of setting that kind of a time line?

    MULLEN: I think the consequences could be very dangerous in that regard. I’m convinced at this point in time that coming — making reductions based on conditions on the ground are very important.

    We’ve been able to do that. We’ve reduced five brigades in the last several months. And again, if conditions continue to improve, I would look to be able to make recommendations to President Bush in the fall to continue those reductions.

    WALLACE: Why dangerous to set a timetable now for what’s going to happen over the next two years?

    MULLEN: When I have discussions with commanders on the ground, basically — and I did a couple weeks ago — they are very, very adamant about continuing progress, about making decisions based on what’s actually happening in the battle space, and I just think that’s prudent.

    That’s served us very well in — certainly, since the surge, which has been very successful, and I think will continue to serve us well based on the overall conditions that I see in Iraq right now.

    WALLACE: And why? What would happen if you don’t do it as condition-based? What if you sit there and say, “Right now, timetable, two years, all combat troops out?” What’s the downside?

    MULLEN: Well, it’s hard to say exactly what would happen. I’d worry about any kind of rapid movement out and creating instability where we have stability.

    We’re engaged very much right now with the Iraqi people. The Iraqi leadership is starting to generate the kind of political progress that we need to make. The economy is starting to move in the right direction. So all those things are moving in the right direction.

    And from the standpoint of moving forward, I think it’s a pretty good path right now.

    WALLACE: Now, you, as we said, are just back from Iraq, and when you came back you said that security is so much better that you may well be able to recommend more troop cuts this fall.

    Can you see more troops coming out of Iraq before President Bush leaves office?

    MULLEN: If conditions on the ground continue to improve as they have, what I said the other day is what I believe, that I will — think I’ll be able to make recommendations for the president to withdraw more troops.

    There’s a mechanical, physical challenge with respect to moving troops around. You can’t just do it overnight. So those decisions have to be taken — those facts are taken into consideration in terms of making those decisions, and we’re working through the details of that right now, and so I can’t tell you for sure whether we could get more troops there before the end of the year or not.

    WALLACE: You mean get more troops out.

    MULLEN: Get more troops out.

    WALLACE: Assuming this current glide path, which is, you feel, an improving glide path, is it your sense it would be possible to get more troops out before the president leaves office on January 20th?

    MULLEN: You’d have to go through the assumptions, but certainly there are assumptions which you could make which would make that possible.

    WALLACE: There’s been talk about as many as three more combat brigades.

    MULLEN: Again, I think that’s pretty — you have to look at the assumptions very carefully about that in terms of whether we could do something like that.

    WALLACE: While we’re talking here, Senator Obama is either on his way or at least headed to Iraq. He opposed the troop surge, while Senator McCain was one of its earliest supporters.

    Again, having said that, try to divorce it now from politics. You say you’re surprised at how much security has improved from when you came on your trip, that you were surprised that it’s so much better.

    MULLEN: Sure.

    WALLACE: What’s your best estimate of where we would be if there had been no troop surge, and instead of adding the troops over the last 18 months we’d been pulling them out?

    MULLEN: Well, hard to — that’s a — actually, that’s a hypothetical that I would struggle really answering. What I saw on this trip was — I had a certain mindset about improved security because I certainly knew it had.

    And relative to where I thought it was, in fact, it was better, much better, than I had anticipated. And that has to do with walking around Sadr City and being in the Jamilla Market, which is a central market in Iraq, walking through Mosul, downtown Mosul, where a few weeks ago we couldn’t go, what’s happened in Basra, how we’ve made improvements there in terms of security, and also the confidence that the Iraqi security forces have, the Iraqi leadership has right now in terms of taking control of their own destiny.

    And so all of those things came together for me to sort of culminate in an assessment that it was much better than I had anticipated.

    WALLACE: Do you think that could have happened without the surge?

    MULLEN: No, I don’t think it could have. transcript availabe at http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,386843,00.html
    —————————————————————————————————–

    you misread my statement on Maliki’s quote. I didn’t say the quote was not his, I said it was not his policy nor the policy of the Iraqi government.

    Support: the quick clarification of the quote from the Iraqi gov’t as being “misunderstood, mistranslated and not conveyed accurately.” (albeit at the behest of the US gov’t that worried about the way it was being construed).

    The conference call the next week between Bush and Maliki where Maliki confirmed that any troop reductions would be conditions based.

    Continuing statements from Iraqi Government spokesman Ali al-Dabbagh that the possibility of troop withdrawal was based on the continuance of security improvements.

    Al-Maliki spoke out against unsuccessful efforts by US lawmakers to attach withdrawal timeframes to funding for the war.

    I tried to pull up the Iraqi government’s website, but it is no longer available in English.

  • Continuing statements from Iraqi Government spokesman Ali al-Dabbagh that the possibility of troop withdrawal was based on the continuance of security improvements.

    Who then said troops should be out by 2010.

  • “Yes, not enough troops in Afghanistan. And why aren’t there enough troops? Cuz Bush had to show he wasn’t a wimp like his daddy and take out Saddam.

    What was Bush’s strategy in Afghanistan? Ignore it and focus on Iraq. How would Obama change it? By withdrawing our troops from Iraq and putting them where they should have been in the first place…”

    Your hatred of Bush blinds everything else. Bush went to war with Iraq b/c EVERY intelligence organization in the Western world believed Saddam still had weapons of mass destruction. And after 9/11, Bush didn’t want to take any chances. The problem Bush created was making the case without expressing any doubt, while using religious language, and otherwise running the war extremely poorly after the easy invasion. That’s the problem, not the motivation and justification. “Bush lied, people died” is complete BS. as is a statement like “What was Bush’s strategy in Afghanistan? Ignore it and focus on Iraq.” Ridiculous.
    You want troops out of Iraq (despite the undeniably negative consequences) to go to Afghanistan. This comes after news articles have reported an upsurge in violence there. From the table’s on Afghanistan troop levels I was able to find, they are at historically high levels already. Your solution (well really it’s everyone’s solution) is a surge of troops- where did such a proven idea come from.

  • “Continuing statements from Iraqi Government spokesman Ali al-Dabbagh that the possibility of troop withdrawal was based on the continuance of security improvements.

    Who then said troops should be out by 2010.”

    exactly. the most important part of that is “based on the continuance of security improvements”.

  • mb, you really should learn to use the Google before mindlessly type up those talking points.

    EVERY intelligence organization in the Western world believed Saddam still had weapons of mass destruction

    Take a look at this.

    Bush didn’t want to take any chances.

    The dead give away that Bush wanted to invade Iraq rather than simply eliminate a potential threat was that he had the weapons inspectors tossed out when the found nothing so that he could invade.

  • “Bush went to war with Iraq b/c EVERY intelligence organization in the Western world believed Saddam still had weapons of mass destruction”

    Wrong. Every intelligence organization did not believe this. Even our CIA had reports that Iraq had suspended its chemical weapons program and was not even close to the nuclear capabilities that Iran or North Korea had.
    Please show me a link with factual proof that states otherwise.

    “From the table’s on Afghanistan troop levels I was able to find, they are at historically high levels already. Your solution (well really it’s everyone’s solution) is a surge of troops”

    No, my solution is to have the troops that were intended for Afghanistan in the first place, to be put there. Historically high levels??? Then 32,000 is quite the number! Less than a fifth that are currently deployed in Iraq. So an inrease in troop levels wouldn’t be considered a “surge” so much as a re-deployment (and in my opinion, a re-deployment where they should have been deployed to in the first place!).

    The only thing ridiculous around here is your support for the Bush/McCain “strategy”. I don’t hate Bush. But I sure do hate his ham-handed and bone-headed “strategy”. Tell me again how it’s not about the oil.

  • “Wrong. Every intelligence organization did not believe this. Even our CIA had reports that Iraq had suspended its chemical weapons program and was not even close to the nuclear capabilities that Iran or North Korea had.
    Please show me a link with factual proof that states otherwise.”

    here’s the Rockefeller (D-WV) Intelligence Committee Report direct from the Senate: http://intelligence.senate.gov/080605/phase2a.pdf

    “No, my solution is to have the troops that were intended for Afghanistan in the first place, to be put there. Historically high levels??? Then 32,000 is quite the number! Less than a fifth that are currently deployed in Iraq. So an inrease in troop levels wouldn’t be considered a “surge” so much as a re-deployment (and in my opinion, a re-deployment where they should have been deployed to in the first place!).”

    pretty soon, you’re going to start arguing what the definition of “is” is. Give me a link that shows government diversion of troops “intended” for Afghanistan that went to Iraq. The fact is that troop levels are at the highest they have ever been and soon will be increased due to the success in Iraq. Hopefully, we can quell the violence in Afghanistan soon as well.

    “Tell me again how it’s not about the oil.”

    lets connect the dots- take your time with this now. 9/11. saddam is believed to still have WMD and is of course still violating myriad UN sanctions. we can’t allow saddam to use or give WMD to terrorists. we will go to war to prevent an even larger terrorist attack.

  • MB, your analysis (and Bush’s, for that matter) was based on the very specious claim that Saddam had WMD (which he did not, as many intel agencies believed) and that he was going to give them to al-Qaeda (no relationship there). And even if others believed he had WMD, Bush still made this decision to invade Iraq when the trouble was in Afghanistan, which needed our troops, money, et al., to stabilize that country. And instead we did a half-assed job of it and then went to Iraq.

    Furthermore nobody is saying troops were “earmarked” for Afghanistan and then later sent to Iraq — but we only have one army. And if you cannot see tht resources were diverted from one country to the other, you’re being willfully blind.

  • i did not (nor did Bush) argue solely that Saddam was going to give WMD to Al Qaeda. The thrust of the argument was the WMD that COULD be used against us. There was also intelligence that Al Qaeda had been in contact with Iraq.
    The failure of the intelligence community to connect the dots on the WTC bombings and then 9/11 left the distinct impression on Bush and nearly every Congressmen that we must not take any intelligence for granted, we must not fail our country again.

    I can’t blame Bush or Congress for that. Sure, it turns out some of the intelligence was wrong- but in my opinion, the blame doesn’t lie just with Bush and people should stop treating the issue that way.
    ——————————————————————————————————
    From the analysis of the Rockefeller Report: But statements regarding Iraq’s support for terrorist groups other than al-Qaeda “were substantiated by intelligence information.” Statements that Iraq provided safe haven for Abu Musab al-Zarqawi and other terrorists with ties to al-Qaeda “were substantiated by the intelligence assessments,” and statements regarding Iraq’s contacts with al-Qaeda “were substantiated by intelligence information.” The report is left to complain about “implications” and statements that “left the impression” that those contacts led to substantive Iraqi cooperation.
    ——————————————————————————————————–

  • the blame doesn’t lie just with Bush and people should stop treating the issue that way

    Okay, let’s assume for a moment that Bush is blameless in starting this war(though that’s a real stretch, as he is CiC). Let’s further assume that McCain’s support for the surge resulted in the decreased violence in Iraq (and not the militaries payoffs and cajoling of the tribes and militias).

    Should McCain be elected president based on his insistence that American troops should stay in Iraq indefinitely? My answer is still NO. Then add on McCain’s lack of knowledge surrounding the economy and the Republican Congress rubber-stamping of failed Bush policies (including increasing deficit spending while cutting taxes at the same time) and I have even more reason to vote for Obama.

    So, mb, thanks for stopping by. Enjoy the rest of your summer.

  • Bush is the one who gave the go ahead for the invasion of Iraq, you can’t argue with that.

    Something I learned in the Army is that leaders are responsible for the decisions they make, however those decisions turn out.

    I have seen and heard a number of commentators and politicians who say that Bush should be commended when it comes to the drop in violence in Iraq. After all, he did order the surge that is supposedly responsible, correct?

    But when it comes to deciding on invading Iraq, for some reason its the intelligence agencies, the Democrats who voted for the AUMF, and a myriad of other nefarious characters who were apparently at fault.

    The intelligence agencies didn’t tell Bush to invade, they gave him their analysis and assessment on Saddam and his allleged WMD program, as well as his supposed connections with bin Laden. Whether that information was enough to justify military action was up to Bush to decide, as it is for any president from any party.

  • mb, LOL, as you would type. A Commentary magazine article and Fred Hiatt editorial don’t qualify as newspaper articles.

    Throwing out the inspectors when they failed to find those stashes of WMD in order to invade is the dead give away that WMD were a pretext for war and nothing more.

    BERKELEY – Speaking on the anniversary of the United States’ invasion of Iraq, originally declared as a pre-emptive strike against a madman ready to deploy weapons of mass destruction (WMDs), the man first charged with finding those weapons said that the U.S. government has “the same mind frame as the witch hunters of the past” — looking for evidence to support a foregone conclusion.

    “There were about 700 inspections, and in no case did we find weapons of mass destruction,” said Hans Blix, the Swedish diplomat called out of retirement to serve as the United Nations’ chief weapons inspector from 2000 to 2003; from 1981 to 1997 he headed the International Atomic Energy Agency. “We went to sites [in Iraq] given to us by intelligence, and only in three cases did we find something” – a stash of nuclear documents, some Vulcan boosters, and several empty warheads for chemical weapons. More inspections were required to determine whether these findings were the “tip of the iceberg” or simply fragments remaining from that deadly iceberg’s past destruction, Blix said he told the United Nations Security Council. However, his work in Iraq was cut short when the United States and the United Kingdom took disarmament into their own hands in March of last year.

    Blix wanted more time and

    International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) chief Mohamed ElBaradei said the IAEA has found no evidence of a revival of nuclear weapons program in Iraq after three months of inspection work.

    Yet, Bush and Cheney set a deadline. Why? Why couldn’t the use wait until the inspectors had finished? Why did Bush and Cheney endorse a timeline for getting in and ignore the conditions on the ground? I tell you why, they wanted a war with Saddam and they were determined to get it.

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