Never underestimate the power of bad literature

Guest Post by Morbo

Fifty years ago this week, Ayn Rand published the novel “Atlas Shrugged.” Never has such a wretched piece of work had such a powerful impact.

“Atlas Shrugged” is a terrible book — it’s turgid, didactic and poorly written with character development that comes straight out of a cardboard factory. Yet it has influenced countless venal people over the years, providing a justification for greed and theories of capitalism untainted by social responsibility. Folks like Alan Greenspan, John Fund, Clarence Thomas and John Stossel cite “Atlas Shrugged” as an influence and drool over the cult of Ayn Rand that has arisen since its publication. (Stossel, who says he was “stunned” when he read the book at age 40, was the featured guest at an event in Washington this week, celebrating the novel’s 50th anniversary.)

If you’ve never read it, “Atlas Shrugged” is a work of fiction that explores Rand’s philosophy of Objectivism, a kind of personal fascism based on the premise that selfishness is a virtue, government regulation is always bad and taxation and social welfare programs are a great moral evil. In “Atlas Shrugged,” characters frequently offer up extended rants outlining the virtues of finding new ways to shaft your fellow human being. One of them goes on for something like 50 pages. This is considered the centerpiece of the novel.

The plot, such as it is, concerns a group of selfish people who decide to punish the liberal, sissy parasites who live off their brilliance by slipping away to a hidden mountain retreat somewhere in Colorado. There they smoke cigarettes embossed with dollar signs, invent cool stuff and have great sex all while building a model society free of things like bureaucracy, compassion, food purity laws and the greatest threat to human freedom ever, Social Security. (If you really want to have fun, go to a meeting of Rand devotees and say something nice about Franklin and/or Eleanor Roosevelt and watch their faces turn purple.)

The idea is that once these rugged individualist super-geniuses have withdrawn from the pathetic, socialist welfare state that America has become, society will quickly collapse and beg for them to come back — only this time it will be on their terms. The books ends with society in chaos as the square-jawed, ravishingly beautiful hyper-capitalists scheme to put the boot on our necks for good and smoke even more cigarettes and have even better sex while liberals squirm in their wretchedness, pining for the days of food stamps.

Rand herself was quite a piece of work. Tired of her lackluster husband (a dullard nothing like the dashing heroes of her books), she began an affair with a disciple half her age and used her philosophy to justify it. In fact, Rand came to believe that her personal opinions were pretty much synonymous with facts. In one of her non-fiction books, she claimed to have objectively proven that Mickey Spillane was a better writer than Shakespeare. She opined that the greatest painter who ever lived was the Dutch master Vermeer. Why? Well, because Rand said so.

It wasn’t long before some of her followers began to question some of Rand’s teachings. These apostates were angrily expelled from the movement, and everyone else was warned not to listen to them. The malcontents failed to understand that Rand’s views had been objectively proven to be true and thus no dissent was needed or permitted.

Rand remains idolized today and has a worldwide cult following of disciples who defend her every word. Many of these folks are too dim to realize the irony of their position: Objectivism claims to champion individual thought and bold action – yet if you dare to actually exercise independent judgment by questioning the teachings of Rand, you are branded a heretic. Nevertheless, some Randites have done that over the years, and today Objectivism is splintered into various factions, all of which claim to hew to the true teachings of the Oracle. It is in many ways like a fundamentalist religion.

Literature, of course, has the power to forge opinions and shape thinking. That is one of its strengths. I defy anyone (with the exception of Dick Cheney) to read Charles Dickens and not be touched by the plight of the poor in Victorian England.

The difference is that Dickens was a writer of staggering imagination and gifts. He knew ways to weave a moral lesson into the text of an interesting story. By contrast, Rand’s theory was to never use a scalpel when there was a meat axe nearby.

In a way, I’m sorry “Atlas Shrugged” is just a book. The idea of luring people like Fund, Thomas, Stossel and the rest of the “hate-the-government” brigade off to a hidden mountain retreat and leaving them to their own devices has a certain appeal — though perhaps not the one they perceive.

You convinced me it was a terrible book when you said that John Stossel liked it. I consider him to be a contender for the Stupidest American Pundit, possibly the stupidest ever after his article on the virtues of price-gouging. If Stossel finds the book inspirational, that pretty much guarantees there’s something wrong with it.

  • “I defy anyone (with the exception of Dick Cheney) to read Charles Dickens and not be touched by the plight of the poor in Victorian England.”

    i seem to recall an op-ed column in the wsj several christmases ago which praised the pre-conversion scrooge as a hero of the english industrial revolution for not pissing away his capital on such foollishness and a living wage for his employees and the like.

    don’t remember if it was written by dick cheney, tho.

  • I started reading AS once and just … lost interest. I’ve read a lot of books, some of them crap books (I forced my way through four Heinleins). AS is one of perhaps three books that did not hold my interest. Your synopsis on the other hand is a hoot.

    However, I have noticed that people who sing the praises of AR are complete dickheads and now I see why.

    Objectivism claims to champion individual thought and bold action – yet if you dare to actually exercise independent judgment by questioning the teachings of Rand, you are branded a heretic.

    You mean loud-mouthed poseurs who are way cooler than everyone else often turn out to be hapless, humour deprived losers who can’t put on their own pants without permission from their Master?

    This is why I tend to avoid politics-based organizations, no matter how liberal. There’s always some control freak who knows all of The Rules and if you don’t follow The Rules they try to tell you The Rules and if you ask who made The Rules and/or point out the inherent hypocrisy of lock-step liberals, they get pissed. That sort of thing is only funny for so long.

  • OTHO, I remember enjoying The Fountainhead when I read it as a naive college student. I didn’t take anything from it philosophically but it turned me on to architecture as art and that has enriched my life ever since.

  • Actually, if you’re watching the fantastic “Mad Men,” you’re seeing Rand’s philosophy in action (and not with a big “attaboy”) – there’s even a direct reference to it when the owner of the ad agency reveals himself as a Randian and tells the completely-Randian hero he should read Atlas Shrugged.

  • Zzzzzzzzz….wha? Ayn Yawn Rand? Atlas Snore Shrugged? Zzzzzzzzz…

    I got 20 pages into Atlas before I passed out. My drool marked copy is still sitting on my book shelf as a reminder never to buy anything by Ayn Rand again. It was at this point when I realized why the Ayn Rand section is almost as large as porn in used book stores. A rather cheap lesson as it only cost me $2 at a used book store.

    TIAO is right. The whole plot of the book seems to be rage filled scribbles of a bitter selfish self centered pseudo nerd who hates the cool kids and their librul philosofy.

    Odd that I’ve never met an Ayn Rand acolyte who was successful in some venture outside of being an advocate of Ayn Rand.

  • Working for a libertarian Rand-freak, I don’t see myself reading her books any time soon, but I did enjoy the hell out of King Vidor’s beautifully-shot, camp-classic The Fountainhead. My favorite part was when Gary Cooper finally unveils his masterpiece of public housing and it resembles almost perfectly the Cabrini Green housing projects here in Chicago, hideous constructions of dehumanizing uniformity that are all being torn down after years of crime, graft and neglect.

    The best literature transcends this world. It’s not meant for practical application. It is not a manual for success, but a study of failures.

  • Morbo,
    Great post!
    I read the book over 25 years ago and found it to be total dreck. And, ironically, as I was finishing it (no small feat), I started working at a company whose President was Jack (a common nickname for “John”) Gault. “Who is John Gault?” My President! I almost fell out of the training room chair.
    Irony was dead…

    How bad was the book? BAD!!! You want proof?
    Any “author” who thinks “Much Ado About Nothing” is surpassed by “Kiss Me Deadly” can’t be taken seriously. Just the titles alone speak volumes.
    Didn’t Spillane once write, “She had leg’s that went from here to there and back again?” Or, was that a parody that I read?
    Now, if she said Raymond Chandler, she might have at least one leg to stand on.

    Libertarians: “Whither wander thou?”
    All I know is that you wander on roads built by taxpayer dollar’s. Either stop wandering, stay home, or admit that you need to help pay the freight.
    Why are we still having this conversation? Oh yeah, check Mahablogs post where people couldn’t find America on a map!

  • One of the experiences at the college I went to, which is a bunch of geniuses in an isolated mountain retreat (who do rugged work and govern themselves) was the raucous laughter that would break out whenever the subject of Ayn Rand and Atlas Shrugged would come up.

    Each year, new students who in high school had discovered her ‘romance novels for the lonely geek’ would show up and be surprised that we didn’t all share their high opinion of Rand’s vision. After a few weeks of doing the actual hard work of running a community and reading some actual social philosphers, they’d end up wondering what they’d been so excited about.

    I find that enthusiasm for Atlas Shrugged is a reliable indicator of someone who hasn’t evolved their social and political analysis to a level more sophisticated than that of an alienated adolescent uber-nerd.

  • I wonder how many of her readers only took away the notion that “selfishness is a virtue.” Indeed, one of her books is titled, “The Virtue of Selfishness.”

    She was also an athiest, BTW, and ironically would have agreed with Karl Marx when he said “Religion is the opiate of the masses,” although she would have gladly lynched Marx himself for his OTHER sayings.

    So, it would appear one can’t be a Rand-follower and a Christian at the same time. For whatever that’s worth.

    When Bennett Cerf, her editor at Random House, suggested she trim the extra-lengthy climactic speach by John Gault at the end of “Atlas Shrugged,” she took umbrage. “Would you edit the Bible?,” she huffed.

    Cerf laughed and let the bitter little woman have her way.

  • Atlas Shrugged was a damned good sci-fi novel. Rand had two definitions of selfishness, one was of enlightened self interest and one was of petty selfishness. Her followers seem to latch onto the petty selfishness thinking it gives them a philosophical platform for their unenlightened selfishness. I wouldn’t throw the baby out with the bath water in pouring opprobrium onto her novels. Elron Hubbard wrote shitty novels AND founded a crappy movement. Rand just founded a crappy movement.

  • I started reading The Fountainhead, and couldn’t get through it because I just didn’t care about the wooden characters.

    I’ve noticed that just about everyone I’ve ever met who likes Ayn Rand was born to a pretty wealthy family. You know the saying: born on third base, thinks they hit a triple.

    I’m not a fan of Alan Greenspan, but I went to hear him talk when he was in town, and he gave the most bizarre explanation for his Rand love, something about how when he was in college he couldn’t quite decided whether to just cruise through life or work hard, and she inspired him to work hard. I guess Al had a trust fund. Most of us only get decide whether to work hard or be homeless.

    I used to be a member of Mensa. In 1999, they had a vote on the best books every written, and Atlas won by a landslide. I haven’t paid my dues since.

  • Glad to see it wasn’t just me who thought this was a poorly written rant disconnected from reality in its observations and conclusions. The art of selfishness is the art of using everybody else and to get what you want and then taking all the credit as if you did it all on your own. Only the wealthy and the wealthy wannabes would find solstice in this philosophy as a means of protecting their wealth. Let all societies die as long as I get mine. Just leave enough for the servants I might require. Never could figure out why anyone would think that book was anything but poorly written crap.

  • So, it would appear one can’t be a Rand-follower and a Christian at the same time. -tenpointtype

    Most of the ‘Christian’ voices in the media infecting our Government have no problem with cognitive dissonance. In fact, I’m of the opinion that, in America, one can’t be a Christian and a follower of Christ at the same time.

  • bjobott said: The art of selfishness is the art of using everybody else and to get what you want and then taking all the credit as if you did it all on your own.

    Actually that’s exactly the opposite of Ayn Rand’s theories.

  • Morbo said: In a way, I’m sorry “Atlas Shrugged” is just a book. The idea of luring people like Fund, Thomas, Stossel and the rest of the “hate-the-government” brigade off to a hidden mountain retreat and leaving them to their own devices has a certain appeal — though perhaps not the one they perceive.

    In the context of the novel’s ideas not one of those guys you mention would be even remotely considered for the hidden valley.

  • Speaking of nom de plumes, it appears Morbo’s identity has been outed. And he’s not Digby.

  • This is a tangent, and sorry for it, but Rand is teh suck. Heinlein, however, is a more mixed bag. He wrote several novels I threw at the wall. But his Moon is a Harsh Mistress is one of those books I would want with me if I were stranded on a desert island. Have Spacesuit, Will Travel and Glory Road are also great. Some of his short stories were downright transformative.

    We return you to your regularly scheduled Rand suckfest.

  • “Anthem” is about 8% as long as Shrugged, about as long as the Galt rant, and accomplishes pretty much the same, without taking two awful months of reading. Shrugged and Fountainhead are indulgences of a self-proclaimed genius egged on by her uxorious dogsbody man-slave disciple promoter lickspittle jizzwad.

    So kick a cripple for Ayn Rand! Hey, how about Graeme Frost?

  • I’m not a ‘Randian’, and never understood the allure of her writing. But say what you will, it’s 50 years later and her writing is still getting people worked up, pro and con. Just saying….

  • Great post as always Morbo … have to agree with Laszlo Panalex with ‘Anthem,’ since if you want to get the quick and dirty skinny of Rand, that’s the only one to bother with to get the truly poisonous flavor.

    I did suffer through ‘Atlas Shrubbed’ (deliberate pun) when I was back in college. Both more moved me over to becoming than a become a budding liberal than that poorly written piece of stultifying full of selfish minded grab it at anyone else’s expense brand of so-called ‘conservatives.’ In fact, the ones who seemed to push the book on me were the money grubbing country Rethug country club types, who already repulsed me to begin within. I gave it a shot … I even gave ‘Anthem’ a shot and that did it for me. Despite all the praise for ‘The Fountainhead’ I’d had enough. Never again, and even a recent documentary trying to rehabilitate her reputation (which I curiously watch), it still it only solidifed my thinking about that bitter hag.

    Read the Cliff’s Note of Rand, if you must, but you’re much better off reading Flaubert. In any many ways, as the 19th Century has a lot more to teach us about the modern political serious climate. You’ll spend your time much more enjoyably and artfully than getting your blood pressure up over Rand. If you’d like to see how much modern stupidity as much come (or how little), just take a quick read through ‘Bouvard and Pecuchet.’ You’ll have a much greater time of it!

  • I find the dishonesty here absolutely disgusting. If the author actually had some legitimate reason for disliking Ayn Rand why not discuss that instead of just misrepresenting her ideas?

    “Personal fascism,” for instance, has to be one of the stupidest things I have ever heard. Does the author even know what fascism is? Clearly not. And to call Objectivism a “cult” just because Ayn Rand wouldn’t sanction, as spokesmen of her philosophy, people who did not actually agree with it. That seems less like a cult and more like common sense to me. I’d also question whether or not the author knows what a cult is.

    And to pretend as if her comparison of two authors was to be taken as a part of her philosophy rather than just one concert application of her aesthetic theories would require mental retardation or dishonesty.

    Anyone that actually cares about facts would do well to read Atlas Shrugged for themselves and see her ideas firsthand.

  • And so the concern-troll comes out of the woodwork. “How dare you bad-mouth a book you haven’t read? And how dare you call it a ‘cult’ just because it doesn’t tollerate dissent?”

    Hey, supposed-to-be, most of us *have* read ‘Atlas Shrugged’. I certainly have. Like it or not, our opinions about your heroine are informed ones. And when the sum-total of your objection is merely “You don’t know what you’re talking about!”, without any supporting evidence, that makes you look very weak.

    But then, objectivism and its adherants *are* very weak, so your whining isn’t exactly surprising or unexpected.

  • One point a Rand fan brought up made some sense. to me.

    We love for selfish reasons. It feels good to receive love back. It begins with parents being absurdly generous to their kids, why? Instinct, perhaps? An urge programmed by our DNA? It feels good? All of the above?

    This altruism is modeled to children, sometimes encouraged in strong terms: (e.g. “Share with your sister!”) It is often adopted by those children. The praise they get not just from the recipient of kindness but from onlookers may produce a Pavlovian reaction to enjoy selfless acts. A desire to experience this feeling of self-worth may be at the heart of all giving and thus at its deepest level is selfish.

    Assuming one accepts these observations as likely truth, one is forced to ask, “So what? Now that I know this, what do I do with it?”

    A key problem with philosophy of most sorts…. it’s key function is often little more than intellectual entertainment. Once absorbed, one is better off going out and doing something kindly to get one’s next fix of self-esteem.

    Perhaps it can be of use to those who have not discovered the joy of altruism. If it can be learned later in life, Rand isn’t such a bad start in convincing materialistic people to discover the guilty pleasure of obtaining gratitude from others. The self-centered among us might convince themselves there’s “something in it for them.”

    Rand falls short when she gives little priority to the value of self-esteem that comes from recognition of one’s own generous nature. Atlas Shrugged (I haven’t read it) sounds as though it is entirely oblivious of the upside of helping the poor parasites they seek to make dominate.

  • Jim Kourlas: The best literature transcends this world. It’s not meant for practical application. It is not a manual for success, but a study of failures.

    The first part is arguable, but I disagree strongly with the second. Great works don’t have to be hopeless, or restrict itself to describing failures. This is the True Art is Angsty trope; you can so write an extraordinary story about human nobility and the overcoming of obstacles… it just gets thrown into the genre ghetto because critics are addicted to hopelessness.

    Well, darn. I think I just agreed with Ayn Rand on something. I have to wash, now.

    For my two cents, I read Atlas Shrugged when I was a disaffected loner in high school. I read Gödel, Escher, Bach around the same time. I grew out of the former, but grew to appreciate the latter much more, when I became an adult. I don’t think that I could get through the Rand again, though. You have to have a sort of bright-eyed lack of knowledge to read them; it’s depressing to think that folks can maintain that well into the responsibilities of adulthood.

    Also, if someone wants to read “Anthem”, it’s out of copyright; you can go to Project Gutenberg and read either of two versions there without sending money to the Objectivist-Industrial Complex.

  • i hate ann rand becase she is evil!!!!!!!!!! sefisness is sooooo stupid becaus its good to help otherpeople!!!! becasue its bad to be selfish!!!! annn rand is sooooo stupid

  • We love for selfish reasons. It feels good to receive love back. It begins with parents being absurdly generous to their kids, why? Instinct, perhaps? An urge programmed by our DNA? It feels good? All of the above?

    None of the above.

    Reciprocal altruism is a winning strategy. Without such altruism the last of our ancestors would have been eaten by leopards. The problem with Objectivism is that it is a losing strategy, that is, it’s wrong. Wrong, wrong, wrong. Absolutely brimming over with wrongability.

    Bob the Angry Flower dealt with Atlas Shrugged best.

  • Has the fecal matter finished running from the walls yet?

    The fact that it took twenty-three posts to roll by before one of them corrected the glaring error in the second paragraph of this article is an eye-opener.

    Then, instead of thanking the man for his helpfulness, his character is attacked, as if they knew him. I wonder why.

    You do realise that the feverent attempts to silence Atlas Shrugged through mis-representation have looked exactly the same for going-on 50 years now?

    For instance, if a book that is

  • For instance, if a book that is in the top 100 on Amazon.com is said to be “faschist”, they are going to wonder whether it is really true. Your strategy is not the best one; you’re shooting yourself in the foot.

    Since you’re helping the novel to reach new people in your own small way, I’ll ask you to keep at it, intentions notwithstanding.

  • “Reciprocal altruism is a winning strategy.”

    Tell that to an athlete sometime.

    “Without such altruism the last of our ancestors would have been eaten by leopards.”

    Yeah, and anyone who yearns for the stone-age deserves it. Thankfully we grew out of that. I would be interested to know why you think self-sacrifice is a winning strategy, though, if that’s not too much to ask.

  • Rob: Tell that to an athlete sometime.

    If you think that the challenges of interacting with your fellow humans are analogous to a zero-sum, winner-takes all competition, I think that might go a long way to explaining your views.

    Yeah, and anyone who yearns for the stone-age deserves it. Thankfully we grew out of that.

    You mean the need to cooperate and get along with others? The need to, in short, not act like sociopaths?

    I would be interested to know why you think self-sacrifice is a winning strategy, though, if that’s not too much to ask.

    I would certainly be interested in knowing why anyone would think that pure altruism would be a winning strategy, as it’s a sucker’s game. Of course, nobody here actually said that pure altruism would be the best strategy.

    Graculus (#29) already explained that what’s been described is reciprocal altruism–not being a jerk to people because you will at some point depend on them as they depend on you–and it’s quite different from your (or Rand’s) caricature of it.

  • “If you think that the challenges of interacting with your fellow humans are analogous to a zero-sum, winner-takes all competition, I think that might go a long way to explaining your views.”

    The remark was rhetorical. I don’t think that in the field of production there is a “winner-who-takes-all”, since there is no proverbial pie to seize for yourself. It’s called production, not taking. What would be an appropriate term for the alternative is “loser-takes-some”.

    As for interacting, that sounds like anthropologist talk to me; someone who thinks of humans as like any other herd of animal to be studied. We’re not atoms and we don’t “interact”, we trade.

    “You mean the need to cooperate and get along with others? The need to, in short, not act like sociopaths?”

    I was thinking of not having to die from diseases (that we’ve now cured), perish from cold or bow to primordial gods. If you’re going to insult the innovators who brought us out of that by calling them sociopaths, then you deserve to go back to an era when we didn’t have them.

    “Graculus (#29) already explained that what’s been described is reciprocal altruism–not being a jerk to people because you will at some point depend on them as they depend on you–and it’s quite different from your (or Rand’s) caricature of it.”

    Well not being a jerk to people is easy; not being what people [i]say[/i] makes you a jerk is impossible. No matter who you are or how you behave, someone in the world will think you’re a jerk.

    So it comes down to whether you think that independence is a virtue.

  • You may be interested to know that Atlas Shrugged is ranked #114 at this hour on Amazon.com. Not bad for a 50-year-old novel! Thanks to Ayn Rand, people of independent minds are gradually discovering an alternate code of morality.

    As an exercise to see what I can extract out of just the first 10 pages of the novel, here are three choice passages that I personally find illuminating:

    From page 5:

    The great oak tree had stood on a hill over the Hudson, in a lonely spot of the Taggart estate. Eddie Willers, aged seven, liked to come and look at that tree. It had stood there for hundreds of years, and he thought it would always stand there. Its roots clutched the hill like a fist with fingers sunk into the soil, and he thought that if a giant were to seize it by the top, he would not be able to uproot it, but would swing the hill and the whole of the earth with it, like a ball at the end of a string. He felt safe in the oak tree’s presence; it was a thing that nothing could change or threaten; it was his greatest symbol of strength.
    One night, lightning struck the oak tree. Eddie saw it the next morning. It lay broken in half, and he looked into its trunk as into the mouth of a black tunnel. The trunk was only an empty shell; its heart had rotted away long ago; there was nothing inside—just a thin gray dust that was being dispersed by the whim of the faintest wind. The living power had gone, and the shape it left had not been able to stand without it.

    From page 6:

    Whenever he entered the Taggart Building, he felt relief and a sense of security. This was a place of competence and power. The floors of its hallways were mirrors made of marble. The frosted rectangles of its electric fixtures were chips of solid light. Behind sheets of glass, rows of girls sat at typewriters, the clicking of their keys like the sound of speeding train wheels. And like an answering echo, a faint shudder went through the walls at times, rising from under the building, from the tunnels of the great terminal where trains started out to cross a continent and stopped after crossing it again, as they had started and stopped for generation after generation. Taggart Transcontinental, thought Eddie Willers, From Ocean to Ocean—the proud slogan of his childhood, so much more shining and holy than any commandment of the Bible. From Ocean to Ocean, forever—thought Eddie Willers, in the manner of a rededication, as he walked through the spotless halls into the heart of the building, into the office of James Taggart, President of Taggart Transcontinental.

    From pages 9-10:

    Those oil wells, Eddie thought suddenly, didn’t they have something in common with the blood vessels on the map? Wasn’t that the way the red stream of Taggart Transcontinental had shot across the country, years ago, a feat that seemed incredible now? He thought of the oil wells spouting a black stream that ran over a continent almost faster than the trains of the Phoenix-Durango could carry it. That oil field had been only a rocky patch in the mountains of Colorado, given up as exhausted long ago. Ellis Wyatt’s father had managed to squeeze an obscure living to the end of his days, out of the dying oil wells. Now it was as if somebody had given a shot of adrenalin to the heart of the mountain, the heart had started pumping, the black blood had burst through the rocks—of course it’s blood, thought Eddie Willers, because blood is supposed to feed, to give life, and that is what Wyatt Oil had done. It had shocked empty slopes of ground into sudden existence, it had brought new towns, new power plants, new factories to a region nobody had ever noticed on any map. New factories, thought Eddie Willers, at a time when the freight revenues from all the great old industries were dropping slowly year by year; a rich new oil field, at a time when the pumps were stopping in one famous field after another; a new industrial state where nobody had expected anything but cattle and beets. One man had done it, and he had done it in eight years; this, thought Eddie Willers, was like the stories he had read in school books and never quite believed, the stories of men who had lived in the days of the country’s youth. He wished he could meet Ellis Wyatt. There was a great deal of talk about him, but few had ever met him; he seldom came to New York. They said he was thirty-three years old and had a violent temper. He had discovered some way to revive exhausted oil wells and he had proceeded to revive them.
    “Ellis Wyatt is a greedy bastard who’s after nothing but money,” said James Taggart. “It seems to me that there are more important things in life than making money.”

  • Morbo, look at all the words you could have saved yourself if you had just talked straight:

    “i hate ann rand becase she is evil!!!!!!!!!! sefisness is sooooo stupid becaus its good to help otherpeople!!!! becasue its bad to be selfish!!!! annn rand is sooooo stupid”

    Nice of your commenters to give your bile concision.

  • Morbo,

    I beg to differ from ur views. I sincerely feel that Atlas Shrugged is a kick-ass novel that makes for great reading. It does make people to put in their best which isn’t that bad after all. Same goes to FountainHead too.

  • devilof76:

    I was thinking the same thing.

    Shade Tail:

    You can’t set up a straw man of me when my post is directly above yours. That’s just silly. And if you are going to set one up at all at least make it a good straw man.

    First of all my last statement was so incredibly, painfully obviously directed at those who have not read the book. It was clearly not meant as an argument. It was addressed to “Anyone that actually cares about facts” that isn’t the author and it clearly isn’t you either. That you would pretend that a little note of advise at the end of my post was not only the only thing I had said but that it was said as an argument is profoundly stupid.

    My actual point, which you evaded by focusing on a nonessential part of my post, was that the Ayn Rand present here is not the Ayn Rand that actually was.

    Furthermore a cult is a group of people who take as unquestionably true, on faith, whatever their leader says. Some may do this with Ayn Rand and treat Objectivism as a cult. However these people could not be called Objectivists as the method of reasoning essential to it are antithetical to faith (reason from observation). To be an Objectivist is to agree with Objectivism because you see the facts (observation) and that it corresponds to them (reason).

    What you are trying to pretend is indicative of a cult is merely Ayn Rand publicly saying that a given person is no longer associated with her. And the point of that is so that someone who is not an Objectivist isn’t taken as an Objectivist.

    I’m sure even your Karl Marx would not sanction as Marxists those who disagreed with some fundamental idea that was essential to his philosophy.

  • I would like to thank Morbo and most of those who have commented here. The lack of intelligent criticism speaks to the power and truth of Ayn Rand’s ideas. The feeble comments speak to the dishonesty and lack of understanding of most of the people commenting. You are praising with faint damnation. I look forward to reading similar comments in 50 years with the 100th anniversary of Atlas Shrugged. Actually, I am sure the reaction of some will be even more vitriolic with the broader adoption of Objectivism. I look forward to the hysteria.

  • I should hope the renaissance would be advanced enough in 50 years to where most understand Objectivism and misrepresentation of it vanishes because of futility.

  • You would hope and expect that to be the case, but religion has been around for how long? That is just one example of lingering disbelief of reality. Objectivism does not have to convince everyone or even nearly everyone of its validity to change society. Its not the cadre of dummies that hold us back, but the silent majority who are not sure what to think and simply follow the dominant trends. Let the dummies squawk.

  • There is an apt quotation by Robert Green Ingersoll about The Bible, which could also apply to reader of Rand’s “literature:”

    “The inspiration of the Bible depends upon the ignorance of the gentleman who reads it.”

    What exactly has Ayn Rand and “Objectivism” done for society? But I will admit that I’d take the teachings of Jesus Christ over the nonsense of Rand in a heartbeat. It is telling that Objectivism is the main inspiration for the Church of Satan though.

    Objectivism will be around in 50 years, in the same form it’s in now – a fringe philosophy that most people haven’t even heard of. A popularity of a book doesn’t account for the validity of its content.

  • “The lack of intelligent criticism speaks to the power and truth of Ayn Rand’s ideas.”

    You need an intelligent piece of literature to criticize first. I’m sure blindly adhering to a set of values that have no basis in reality is truly intellectual though.

  • Sarah,

    “What exactly has Ayn Rand and ‘Objectivism’ done for society? ”
    Why, exactly, is society to be taken as the standard of value?

    “It is telling that Objectivism is the main inspiration for the Church of Satan though.”
    Libertarians also latch onto Ayn Rand, what does that have to do with anything? I fail to see how the crazy people who try to associate themselves with a person could tell you anything about that person. That is nonsense.

    “You need an intelligent piece of literature to criticize first.”
    I profoundly hate a number of philosophers but I’m still honest enough to acknowledge that they were brilliant men. You should not let your irrational emotions blind you to the facts.

    “I’m sure blindly adhering to a set of values that have no basis in reality is truly intellectual though.”
    This, then, must be your error. You see, the opposite is actually true. This is why the honest, intelligent, rational people embrace Objectivism so much. Because it makes sense to believe only what is based on the facts of reality. Reality should be your standard when determining much more than just your values too. This is what Objectivism is all about. Maybe when you see that you are mistaken to “blindly adhering to a set of values that have no basis in reality” you won’t be so misguided and hateful. Maybe then you will allow yourself to understand the philosophy. 😉

  • This place is too hilarious BTW. I’d like to thank all the ridiculous people here for giving me a few laughs. I’d be more disgust if I didn’t regard you as harmless. As it stands you people simply amuse me.

  • @”Is This Supposed To Be a Satire?”

    Perhaps this is simply amusing because you don’t get it. Your argument doesn’t even approach the original idea. “Society” wasn’t the standard of value. What of meaning has “been done” for society was.

    “Inventing” philosophies does not make you brilliant. Combining philosophies does not make you brilliant. Arguing against and for philosophies does not make you brilliant. If we wanted to use the Bible as an example, and I usually wouldn’t, consider the circulation and popularity of that book versus Ayn Rand’s. At least that philosophy has been widely adopted. Now that’s brilliance I can admit.

    The heightened irony inherent in Objectivism, which any real student of this mode of thought would know, is that the reality it is based on is only “perceived” reality. This is the well known meta-perception problem with Objectivism. Rand’s objectivism is not mine. Quit making your perceived realities everyone else’s realities.

    You have a lot of reading yet to do. Since this is all so amusing, I suggest you start at the bottom.

  • First of all you have no idea what I have or have not read. Objectivism solves any questions about the validity of perception. And brilliance is a level of intelligence and is not reflected by popularity. Also intelligence doesn’t guarantee rationality. So a wrong person can be intelligent to any degree. Originating a complex and fully consistent (if not Objective if you don’t see that it is) system of thought that integrates so much is brilliant. The Bible is no more brilliant than Aesop’s Fables just because it’s widely adopted. The content of an idea is what matters not the number of people who agree with it.

    And if you want to know what Rand has “done for society” you can see her arguments being used here and there sometimes by those who don’t even know the source. The influence is there and Objectivism’s popularity is rising dramatically and in a few years her influence will be hard to miss. When the majority is at least sympathetic to Objectivism you will see a much better world.

  • Question for Objectivists………………. How would you judge a person who is aware of Ayn Rand and Objectivism, yet has no interest in her philosophy or reading her books?

  • I can not speak for every Objectivist and no one can speak for Objectivism. But I personally would judge such a person as someone who doesn’t know the importance of ideas or doesn’t know the value of these particular ideas.

    If it’s a moral evaluation you want though none is warranted. There is no moral judgment involved in issues of ignorance, unless it’s willful ignorance.

  • “I would judge such a person as someone who doesn’t know the importance of ideas”
    A person can know the importance of ideas, yet choose to read other authors and study other philosophies. Such a person is no less intelligent or moral than an Objectivist. Any who would say otherwise (and there are plenty of them) would be displaying intellectual arrogance and moral superiority. This points to an underlying inferiority complex , amongst other things.

    Choosing to think for one’s self and live by one’s own ideas is preferable to depending on someone else’s ideas.

  • “A person can know the importance of ideas, yet choose to read other authors and study other philosophies. Such a person is no less intelligent or moral than an Objectivist.”
    Who has said otherwise? Did you miss the rest of my post beginning with the other half of that sentence you misquoted? It said “. . . or doesn’t know the value of these particular ideas.” Clearly this last part implies that someone can know the importance of ideas without knowing anything about Objectivism or its correspondence to reality.

    “Any who would say otherwise (and there are plenty of them) would be displaying intellectual arrogance and moral superiority. This points to an underlying inferiority complex , amongst other things.”
    Anyone who would consider someone immoral for just not knowing something is not an Objectivist. And unless you are referring to self esteem, certainty and pride in being moral you are not talking about Objectivists. Though I don’t think you are are given that “superiority” is a relative term and not a proper standard for your own self worth.

    I won’t bother with your conclusions about psychological motives because any such conclusions properly come after a discussion of ideas or not at all, as they add nothing to one.

    “Choosing to think for one’s self and live by one’s own ideas is preferable to depending on someone else’s ideas.”
    Everyone should be intellectually independent. But to agree with someone is not the same as being dependent on their ideas. If you consider rationally a whole system of ideas and find that it makes sense and you agree with it there is no act of dependence involved. You have still used your own mind to evaluate the ideas and arguments for them and you have merely reached the same conclusions. Anyone who took Objectivism on faith, took as true anything Ayn Rand said because she said it, would not actually be an Objectivist.

    And if independence meant you couldn’t agree with other people then no one could be called independent unless they raised themselves on a desert island. That’s the only way you can personally originate every idea you hold, and how few and primitive ideas those would be. So you don’t have to originate so long as you understand an idea.

  • Will if you ask me any philosophy that says that all people have the same rights is just crazy. If God wanted minorities to have rights he wouldn’t have made them minorities. But Objectivism doesn’t accept God so I don’t know what to say to you people.

  • That last steve was an impostor. Note the bad spelling and grammar. The real steve is smarter than that.

  • Ok, the real steve is back. Be gone phony steve. Mr. Objectivist, at this point I’m going to need to see a list of great Objectivist accomplishments. I need to see proof that the Objectivist philosophy is more than just talk. Promotion of Objectivism, speeches, writing, debating or talking don’t count. I’m talking real world inventions, discoveries, scientific breakthroughs, technological advances, works of art, musical compositions etc. Real world results by those who have followed the Objectivist philosophy as promoted by Rand, and self professed Objectivists. In other words, concrete evidence that Objectivists have accomplished anything significant. I want to see a list of real men, and real results. The type of great men and great deeds of which Rand admired so much. Or was it all just talk?

  • I just lost a great big elaborate reply to this thanks to Firefox messing up. I had examples and links and stuff but I don’t care to put that much effort into it again. But I’ll still give something.

    Philosophical ideas take a long time to lead to physical results. You cannot demand a list of achievements resulting from a philosophy at its birth, not this one or any other. Some people have to understand it and then teach it to more people, and so on, until you have a cultural revolution. Though you can look at how happy and successful the people who really get Objectivism are. What it does for the individual as an individual, and it’s a lot.

    You can also consider that Objectivism is like an essentialized and expanded Aristotelianism and then look at what happened to the world after Thomas Aquinas. Enlightenment, renaissance and the industrial revolution were the results of the rediscovery of Aristotle.

    So unless you want to wait between 500 to 2300 years you need a new standard to judge ideas by. The only proper standard to judge an idea by is logic from evidence. Does it follow logically from the facts? And Objectivism meets this standard. If you read this book (or one of a few others like it) you can see that Objectivism follows with irrefutable logic from irrefutable facts.

    You may also consider that all attempts to refute Objectivism involve misrepresentation of Objectivism or just plain naked nonsense. Any questions or objections you have about Objectivism have probably been answered already, if not by Ayn Rand herself than by someone now teaching her ideas and/or their implications, you need only look or ask the right people.

  • I learned the hard way too. You need to highlight your reply, copy and paste it somewhere else before you press submit. That way when it you press submit and it vanishes, you have a copy to paste and then submit right away. I believe it is this and other websites, which are not designed properly that is the problem.
    Let me tell you about an Objectivist I’ve known for 15 years. He has been an Objectivist for 40 years. His life has consisted of working in a dead end govt. job his entire life, until retirement. He is a lifelong renter. He never owned property, ran a business, produced anything. Pretty much went to work, read Ayn Rand books, spent hours on the internet chatting about Objectivism, rarely left the apartment. For years he sent me emails of various Objectivist articles about current events. There was always a hole in the logic, which I would point out and he couldn’t counter. I finally had enough of his proselytizing and went with a head on assault, I asked question after question about Ayn Rand and Objectivism which he could not or would not answer and then he cut off all communication. I know where he picked up that behavior. In that respect, he is a faithful disciple of Rand. If he chooses to dump a real life thinking person he has been friends with for 15 years for a bunch of books from a woman who died 30 years ago, well that’s his loss. I wonder if there will be anybody at his funeral.

  • Actually Firefox updated its self on me without warning. I’ve taken to backing up stuff I’m going to post before I hit submit. But this happened while writing.

    Anyway you can’t judge a philosophy by one person you know that claims to accept it. There are all kinds of crazy people that think they are all kinds of things. And judging by the fact that he couldn’t answer your questions I’d say that he didn’t really know the content of the philosophy himself. That and his lack of motivation.

    Now to be an Objectivist you don’t have to know every detail of every Objectivist answer to all the “problems” of philosophy. But you do have to know the basics. So maybe your friend can justly be called an Objectivist and maybe not. But he should have just told you that he didn’t know what you wanted to know and you’d have to ask someone else.

    I’m more educated than most on the subject, as a philosopher, but I don’t think I’ll ever claim to have mastered it.

    And your problem with him “dropping” you isn’t related to Ayn Rand’s professionally disassociating her self from people who were no longer Objectivists. The big break was because the bastard involved turned out to be a lier who had been using and manipulating her for years. And the lesser “breaks” were because a person no longer agreed with Objectivism on some major philosophical issue or another and was thereafter not an Objectivist and could not be professionally regarded as such. None of these things were wrong of her. Had she actually dropped longterm friends completely because their questions made her uncomfortable that would be different but as it stands she acted properly. And may those who smear her for it be damned.

    If you want real answers to your questions just find a real Objectivist with the kind of mind that can answer them. I’d give you my email but the crazies of the far left can be very malicious and I’d rather not post my email address on this page. But even if I couldn’t answer some question I could help you find someone who could. I actually answer peoples questions on all kinds of subjects just for the exercise and to see what I know and how well I can articulate my thoughts. When I don’t know how to answer a question I’m glad to know where I can improve.

    Figure out a way to get in touch with me and if I have the time I’d be happy to discuss whatever if you want.

  • Dear Comrade Spassky:

    I have been watching with great interest your world chess championship match with Bobby Fischer. I am not a chess enthusiast or even a player, and know only the rudiments of the game. I am a novelist-philosopher by profession.

    But I watched some of your games, reproduced play by play on television, and found them to be a fascinating demonstration of the enormous complexity of thought and planning required of a chess player—a demonstration of how many considerations he has to bear in mind, how many factors to integrate, how many contingencies to be prepared for, how far ahead to see and plan. It was obvious that you and your opponent had to have an unusual intellectual capacity.

    Then I was struck by the realization that the game itself and the players’ exercise of mental virtuosity are made possible by the metaphysical absolutism of the reality with which they deal. The game is ruled by the Law of Identity and its corollary, the Law of Causality. Each piece is what it is: a queen is a queen, a bishop is a bishop—and the actions each can perform are determined by its nature: a queen can move any distance in any open line, straight or diagonal, a bishop cannot; a rook can move from one side of the board to the other, a pawn cannot; etc. Their identities and the rules of their movements are immutable—and this enables the player’s mind to devise a complex, long-range strategy, so that the game depends on nothing but the power of his (and his opponent’s) ingenuity.

    This led me to some questions that I should like to ask you.

    1. Would you be able to play if, at a crucial moment—when, after hours of brain-wrenching effort, you had succeeded in cornering your opponent—an unknown, arbitrary power suddenly changed the rules of the game in his favor, allowing, say, his bishops to move like queens? You would not be able to continue? Yet out in the living world, this is the law of your country—and this is the condition in which your countrymen are expected, not to play, but to live.

    2. Would you be able to play if the rules of chess were updated to conform to a dialectic reality, in which opposites merge—so that, at a crucial moment, your queen turned suddenly from White to Black, becoming the queen of your opponent, and then turned Gray, belonging to both of you? You would not be able to continue? Yet in the living world, this is the view of reality your countrymen are taught to accept, to absorb, and to live by.

    3. Would you be able to play if you had to play by teamwork—i.e., if you were forbidden to think or act alone and had to play not with a group of advisers, but with a team that determined your every move by vote? Since, as champion, you would be the best mind among them, how much time and effort would you have to spend persuading the team that your strategy is the best? Would you be likely to succeed? And what would you do if some pragmatist, range-of-the-moment mentalities voted to grab an opponent’s knight at the price of a checkmate to you three moves later? You would not be able to continue? Yet in the living world, this is the theoretical ideal of your country, and this is the method by which it proposes to deal (someday) with scientific research, industrial production, and every other kind of activity required for man’s survival.

    4. Would you be able to play if the cumbersome mechanism of teamwork were streamlined, and your moves were dictated simply by a man standing behind you, with a gun pressed to your back—a man who would not explain or argue, his gun being his only argument and sole qualification? You would not be able to start, let alone continue, playing? Yet in the living world, this is the practical policy under which men live—and die—in your country.

    5. Would you be able to play—or to enjoy the professional understanding, interest and acclaim of an International Chess Federation—if the rules of the game were splintered, and you played by “proletarian” rules while your opponent played by “bourgeois” rules? Would you say that such “polyrulism” is more preposterous than polylogism? Yet in the living world, your country professes to seek global harmony and understanding, while proclaiming that she follows “proletarian” logic and that others follow “bourgeois” logic, or “Aryan” logic, or “third-world” logic, etc.

    6. Would you be able to play if the rules of the game remained as they are at present, with one exception: that the pawns were declared to be the most valuable and non-expendable pieces (since they may symbolize the masses) which had to be protected at the price of sacrificing the more efficacious pieces (the individuals)? You might claim a draw on the answer to this one—since it is not only your country, but the whole living world that accepts this sort of rule in morality.

    7. Would you care to play, if the rules of the game remained unchanged, but the distribution of rewards were altered in accordance with egalitarian principles: if the prizes, the honors, the fame were given not to the winner, but to the loser—if winning were regarded as a symptom of selfishness, and the winner were penalized for the crime of possessing a superior intelligence, the penalty consisting in suspension for a year, in order to give others a chance? Would you and your opponent try playing not to win, but to lose? What would this do to your mind?

    You do not have to answer me, Comrade. You are not free to speak or even to think of such questions—and I know the answers. No, you would not be able to play under any of the conditions listed above. It is to escape this category of phenomena that you fled into the world of chess.

    Oh yes, Comrade, chess is an escape—an escape from reality. It is an “out,” a kind of “make-work” for a man of higher than average intelligence who was afraid to live, but could not leave his mind unemployed and devoted it to a placebo—thus surrendering to others the living world he had rejected as too hard to understand.

    Please do not take this to mean that I object to games as such: games are an important part of man’s life, they provide a necessary rest, and chess may do so for men who live under the constant pressure of purposeful work. Besides, some games—such as sports contests, for instance—offer us an opportunity to see certain human skills developed to a level of perfection. But what would you think of a world champion runner who, in real life, moved about in a wheelchair? Or of a champion high jumper who crawled about on all fours? You, the chess professionals, are taken as exponents of the most precious of human skills: intellectual power—yet that power deserts you beyond the confines of the sixty-four squares of a chessboard, leaving you confused, anxious, and helplessly unfocused. Because, you see, the chessboard is not a training ground, but a substitute for reality.

    A gifted, precocious youth often finds himself bewildered by the world: it is people that he cannot understand, it is their inexplicable, contradictory, messy behavior that frightens him. The enemy he rightly senses, but does not choose to fight, is human irrationality. He withdraws, gives up, and runs, looking for some sanctuary where his mind would be appreciated—and he falls into the booby trap of chess.

    You, the chess professionals, live in a special world—a safe, protected, orderly world, in which all the great, fundamental principles of existence are so firmly established and obeyed that you do not even have to be aware of them. (They are the principles involved in my seven questions.) You do not know that these principles are the preconditions of your game—and you do not have to recognize them when you encounter them, or their breach, in reality. In your world, you do not have to be concerned with them: all you have to do is think.

    The process of thinking is man’s basic means of survival. The pleasure of performing this process successfully—of experiencing the efficacy of one’s own mind—is the most profound pleasure possible to men, and it is their deepest need, on any level of intelligence, great or small. So one can understand what attracts you to chess: you believe that you have found a world in which all irrelevant obstacles have been eliminated, and nothing matters but the pure, triumphant exercise of your mind’s power. But have you, Comrade?

    Unlike algebra, chess does not represent the abstraction—the basic pattern—of mental effort; it represents the opposite: it focuses mental effort on a set of concretes, and demands such complex calculations that a mind has no room for anything else. By creating an illusion of action and struggle, chess reduces the professional player’s mind to an uncritical, unvaluing passivity toward life. Chess removes the motor of intellectual effort—the question “What for?”—and leaves a somewhat frightening phenomenon: intellectual effort devoid of purpose.

    If—for any number of reasons, psychological or existential—a man comes to believe that the living world is closed to him, that he has nothing to seek or to achieve, that no action is possible, then chess becomes his antidote, the means of drugging his own rebellious mind that refuses fully to believe it and to stand still. This, Comrade, is the reason why chess has always been so popular in your country, before and since its present regime—and why there have not been many American masters. You see, in this country, men are still free to act.

    Because the rulers of your country have proclaimed this championship match to be an ideological issue, a contest between Russia and America, I am rooting for Bobby to win—and so are all my friends. The reason why this match has aroused an unprecedented interest in our country is the longstanding frustration and indignation of the American people at your country’s policy of attacks, provocations, and hooligan insolence—and at our own government’s overtolerant, overcourteous patience. There is a widespread desire in our country to see Soviet Russia beaten in any way, shape or form, and—since we are all sick and tired of the global clashes among the faceless, anonymous masses of collectives—the almost medieval drama of two individual knights fighting the battle of good against evil, appeals to us symbolically. (But this, of course, is only a symbol; you are not necessarily the voluntary defender of evil—for all we know, you might be as much its victim as the rest of the world.)

    Bobby Fischer’s behavior, however, mars the symbolism—but it is a clear example of the clash between a chess expert’s mind, and reality. This confident, disciplined, obviously brilliant player falls to pieces when he has to deal with the real world. He throws tantrums like a child, breaks agreements, makes arbitrary demands, and indulges in the kind of whim-worship one touch of which in the playing of chess would disqualify him for a high-school tournament. Thus he brings to the real world the very evil that made him escape it: irrationality. A man who is afraid to sign a letter, who fears any firm commitment, who seeks the guidance of the arbitrary edicts of a mystic sect in order to learn how to live his life—is not a great, confident mind, but a tragically helpless victim, torn by acute anxiety and, perhaps, by a sense of treason to what might have been a great potential.

    But, you may wish to say, the principles of reason are not applicable beyond the limit of a chessboard, they are merely a human invention, they are impotent against the chaos outside, they have no chance in the real world. If this were true, none of us would have survived nor even been born, because the human species would have perished long ago. If, under irrational rules, like the ones I listed above, men could not even play a game, how could they live? It is not reason, but irrationality that is a human invention—or, rather, a default.

    Nature (reality) is just as absolutist as chess, and her rules (laws) are just as immutable (more so)—but her rules and their applications are much, much more complex, and have to be discovered by man. And just as a man may memorize the rules of chess, but has to use his own mind in order to apply them, i.e., in order to play well—so each man has to use his own mind in order to apply the rules of nature, i.e., in order to live successfully. A long time ago, the grandmaster of all grandmasters gave us the basic principles of the method by which one discovers the rules of nature and of life. His name was Aristotle.

    Would you have wanted to escape into chess, if you lived in a society based on Aristotelian principles? It would be a country where the rules were objective, firm and clear, where you could use the power of your mind to its fullest extent, on any scale you wished, where you would gain rewards for your achievements, and men who chose to be irrational would not have the power to stop you nor to harm anyone but themselves. Such a social system could not be devised, you say? But it was devised, and it came close to full existence—only, the mentalities whose level was playing jacks or craps, the men with the gun and their witch doctors, did not want mankind to know it. It was called Capitalism.

    But on this issue, Comrade, you may claim a draw: your country does not know the meaning of that word—and, today, most people in our country do not know it, either.

    Sincerely,

    Ayn Rand

  • 1) Who does she think she is to write such a demeaning letter to the World Chess Champion?
    2) Why doesn’t she be honest and admit that she was just seeking publicity for her own name and cause?
    3) What kind of person writes a letter with multiple questions directed to the receiver, and tells him not to answer them? If she already knows the answers (as usual) then why bother asking them?
    4) Her basic point is that she is intellectually superior to the great chess players, although she admittedly knows only the basics of the game. If she was able to beat them on the chessboard, then I would listen to her views on chess.
    5) Why is she ragging on men who are using their minds, would she rather they sit around and drink vodka all day?

    If I was Boris Spassky I would
    A) Ignore her and deny her further publicity or
    B) Write the following “open letter”…….

    Dear Miss Rand,
    I don’t know you.
    I don’t want to know you.
    If you continue to use my name in the future, you will receive an “open letter” from my lawyer.
    Goodbye

  • The previous message should have looked like this…….

    The previous piece was an “open letter” from Ayn Rand to Boris Spassky, World Chess Champion. This is the very first thing I read of Rand, on the advise of a friend. I was immediately turned off for the following reasons……..
    1) Who does she think she is to write such a demeaning letter to the World Chess Champion?
    2) Why doesn’t she be honest and admit that she was just seeking publicity for her own name and cause?
    3) What kind of person writes a letter with multiple questions directed to the receiver, and tells him not to answer them? If she already knows the answers (as usual) then why bother asking them?
    4) Her basic point is that she is intellectually superior to the great chess players, although she admittedly knows only the basics of the game. If she was able to beat them on the chessboard, then I would listen to her views on chess.
    5) Why is she ragging on men who are using their minds, would she rather they sit around and drink vodka all day?

    If I was Boris Spassky I would
    A) Ignore her and deny her further publicity or
    B) Write the following response…….

    Dear Miss Rand,
    I don’t know you.
    I don’t want to know you.
    If you continue to use my name in the future, you will receive an “open letter” from my lawyer.
    Goodbye

  • I’m not going to sit her an try to psychoanalyze a giant letter for you. I don’t know why anyone should want to introduce someone to Ayn Rand and Objectivism with something like this instead of just giving them Atlas Shrugged. This is all very nonessential stuff.

    If you want to know why she would want to try to appeal to a man with a powerful mind that’s being used on something as unproductive as a game while he lives in the same dictatorship that she escaped from you can start by trying to understand her philosophy.

    I haven’t read that letter yet and I don’t plan to get to those for a while. I have more essential and philosophical things to read first.

    You’re coming across as only interested in finding problems with the person of Ayn Rand and not with any actual part of the philosophy. If you actually wish to discuss ideas with me I’m all ears but if not then not. I have all the patience in the world for honest attempts at knowledge. But I do not care to try to counter ever insult or negative evaluation slung at the people I admire. The person who conceived of them is irrelevant to the validity of ideas. I like Ayn Rand and I think she lived up to her own vision of the ideal person and I don’t care what anyone else thinks of her as a person. I deal with ideas.

    You may ask me about any philosophical problem you have from axioms, the validity of the senses, concept formation all the way up to the ideal social system. But be sure it’s about ideas and for the sake of gaining information or we wont be having any conversation.

  • The person who conceived of them is irrelevant to the validity of ideas.”
    This is the crux of the issue at hand. I believe that the person who conceives the idea is the first thing that should be examined. Even more so when the ideas involve philosophy. That person’s life must be examined, in order to see the real world results of that person’s philosophy in that person’s life, and then decide if one likes what he sees.
    Example….. Joe Blow writes a book about how to “How to Achieve the Ultimate Happiness”. The thing is, he is an alcoholic fat slob who is twice divorced.
    Am I going to buy his book? No.
    Am I going to listen to one word he says? No.
    Are you going to buy his book? No
    Will some people buy his book? Yes

    As far as Ayn Rand, without getting into specifics…….
    Do I see anything in her personal life that I would want for myself? No
    Do I see anything in her personality that I want to emulate? No
    Do I like what I see and hear when I watch a video of her speaking? No
    Is she the type of person I would get along with as a friend or mate? No
    If my reaction to a person is repulsion, do I need to go any further? No

    I don’t care if a person is a millionaire, billionaire, President of a huge company, Governor, a famous star or President of the US. If I see that person acting like a dick, then I judge that person accordingly. At the same time, a regular person who treats others with respect, is courteous, has manners, is honest and fair is worth more to me than a million of the self important ones.
    Am I copping out? No. I’m very selective about what I read.
    Name a philosopher I could respect and admire, who lived a truly happy, fulfilling life. If there aren’t any, then I will just continue with my personal philosophy of improving my life. I’ve done well with my own ideas. I am wealthy at a fairly young age. That doesn’t make me any more important than anybody else,but just to let you know where I’m coming from.

  • Even if she wasn’t the ideal person she wasn’t your twice divorced fat slob either. If you think she had flaws they couldn’t have been all that bad.

    I regard most negative evaluations of her as cartoon versions of the real thing or just mistaken in fact or evaluation. She seemed like a very happy person to me from what I’ve seen of her, which isn’t much but it’s more than most of her critics. Unless you knew her really well I don’t think you can be too sure. But those who did know her well describe her as happy and give examples of things she would do that are characteristic of a happy person. She also wrote The Fountainhead and Atlas Shrugged so that speaks of her character a lot too.

    I suppose I’d be less inclined to listen to your fat slob to begin with but if I did I’d recognize that (because facts exist independent of the people who know them) if he doesn’t practice his own professed principles that has no bearing on the truth or falsehood of the ideas. I’m sure even the craziest people say things that are true sometimes. If a drunken bum on the street tells me that most people have two legs or that bricks are denser than cotton I’m not going to base my evaluation of these statements on the character of the man making them.

    But Ayn Rand was not an unpleasant person and if she had any flaws I have not seen them. And if she was living there would be no one I’d rather listen to discussing ideas.

    I’m sure you respect logic so all give you the formal principle involved. To evaluate an idea based not on its adherence to reality and the logic of the arguments for it, but the person presenting the idea is called Argumentum ad Hominem or Appeal To The Man. It’s a logical fallacy, an error in thinking. If you don’t think I’ve said enough on it you can look that up and read more on it.

    There are certain circumstances where it is rational to ignore a person or be skeptical of what he says. But those don’t apply her because she wasn’t dishonest or insane , unlike some of her most influential critics.

  • Here’s what it boils down to. Can a person have a happy, fulfilling life regardless of whatever Ayn Rand said or wrote? Absolutely. There are millions of people on the planet who never even heard of Rand, doing just that. Call them parasites, looters, second handers, irrational, immoral or evil (Rand’s labels). That has absolutely no effect on their lives. Which brings me to one of my favorite things about life….
    It doesn’t matter what other people think about an individual. If a person holds intelligent, sound beliefs then that person will prosper accordingly.
    If a person holds stupid beliefs then that person will suffer for it. Everybody has a right to stick their head in a toilet, as long as they don’t get any shit on me.
    That is all that matters.
    What Ayn Rand would think about a person who rejected her and her philosophy is irrelevant.
    Now I can give you a couple of examples from Rand’s life to prove my point about stupid ideas.
    1) She obviously believed that it was morally acceptable and reasonable, while married herself, to have an affair with a man who was also married to somebody else.
    99% of the population can see that is an absurd idea, yet there she was calling other people immoral and evil. Based on her stupid belief, she paid the price with a screwed up personal life and diminished credibility.
    2) She believed smoking was a positive activity, and continued to smoke herself even after it was widely known that smoking was unhealthy and dangerous. She paid for her stupid belief and actions with lung cancer.
    Call these observations whatever you want, but they are facts.
    Now why is it a non-objectivist like me doesn’t smoke or have affairs, while the creator of Objectivism engaged in such activities? Something to think about.
    Could I be more rational than her?
    Do I even care?
    As far as her not being an unpleasant person, watch the 5 part series on youtube with Donohue. Arrogance, didactic, browbeating, defensive. Watch her rip into one of the questioners. After Donohue tells Ayn that the woman is entitled to express her opinion, she sheepishly says ‘No’. And it’s also “her show” and the oil in the Middle East is “our oil”. Whatever.

  • Man, you people are joking, utterly ignorant or downright vicious. One thing is for sure, if this is the kind of mudslinging you take amusement in I don’t intend to ever return to this website. Are you *$&%* kidding me?! Cigarettes and an affair?! You’re pulling those cards?! You couldn’t find a better example of definitive “mudslinging” if you tried. What kind of left-wing hell are you promoting on this site? Jesus, I didn’t really believe your kind actually existed. I feel dirty just having been here. This is like the website of the damned.

  • Surfed in and Asstounded…….”utterly ignorant or downright vicious.”
    And you’re complaining about mudslinging by other people. Hypocrite!

  • As long as objectivists promote Rand as being a great writer, thinker, novelist and philosopher, then Rand the person is fair game for discussion. As long as they try to make her into an important figure, then they should be prepared to hear alternate views. Their position is basically “We can talk about Ayn Rand, you can’t.” Not a very credible position. If objectivists don’t like her being scrutinized, and insist that the discussion must be about philosophy, then they shouldn’t talk about her in the first place. Forget pushing her name into school curricula, or anywhere else. Let’s see them forget talking about Rand, and talk only about the philosophy, as they claim to want. Now this assumes the objectivists are capable of overcoming their devotion to her, and their promotion of her. And the “Ayn Rand Institute” would have to rename itself, lest anyone criticize their leader.
    In the meantime, the topic of Ayn Rand is open for discussion.
    Free speech applies.

  • I am responding simply because my initial post was admitted a reactionary response to what I read on this page. Additionally, “the real steve” in his post hinted at an aspect that I believe deserves elaboration. There are plenty of Rand admirers who are certainly dogmatic zealots. Ironically, they cling to and recite her every word without the mental digestion that was so essential to her manner thinking. If someone were to write an honest critique of one of her novels, I wouldn’t be surprised – nor necessarily disagree – to find some definite “literary flaws”. Nonetheless, if one’s motives were honest and they took into consideration her entire body of work – fiction and philosophy – they would have to eventually come to the conclusion that her virtues so outweighed any potential literary [or personal] errors as to become insignificant by comparison. I’d even go as far as to say that her ability to THINK is sadly unmatched by any other popular personality in the twenty century at least. Rand admirers are legitimately affronted when they read pages like this, whereby people who obviously haven’t studied her philosophy in-depth make statements that are viciously false or DELIBERATELY misleading like a bad political campaign advertisement. I cannot fathom how anyone who did not have an axe to grind could make some of the statements made here, including the initial editorial. Probably the most important point – and incidentally the most unimpassioned for an admirer of anybody – would be take some of the statements here and substitute ANY subject for “Atlas Shrugged” or Ayn Rand. For example, let’s say this page had the exact same intentions, but its subject was the television show “Seinfeld” instead of “Atlas Shrugged”. It would be obvious to anyone familiar – whether they were a fan, a person who disliked the show or an impartial observer – that the posts here were intent on bashing the subject. It is that simple. I have stated everything I have a desire to write here. I’ve written it for any likeminded people who stumble across this page in the future. I honestly do not understand what could bring someone to have the motives that are very obvious here. I have read my share of Ayn Rand detractors and admirers, but I have never before seen anything like this page. It is obvious that most of you dislike her or hate her. That’s fine with me. I just can’t comprehend why you would go about expressing it so crudely and viciously with virtually no impartial evidence. To criticize anyone because they smoked cigarettes or because they had an affair is like criticizing E=MC2 because Eisenstein . . . smoked cigarettes or because he had an affair! Make no mistake, this isn’t a page devoted to critiquing Ayn Rand or Atlas Shrugged, it is solely devoted to expressing your hatred.

  • Einstein has nothing to do with this. E=MC2 falls under the category of science. Science and philosophy are not the same thing.
    If a scientific theory is correct, it can be proven and becomes a scientific fact. By definition, a philosophy cannot be a fact. Just as E=MC2 cannot be a philosophical theory because it is a proven fact. Rand dealt with ideas and theories, not proven facts. If they were proven facts, then nobody could deny that. However, because she did not deal with proven facts, then her ideas and theories can be debated legitimately. “Ayn Rand spoke the truth, end of story” is what objectivists seem to be saying. If they want to believe that, fine. But some of us need proven facts.

  • Here’s one of my favorite lines that objectivists like to use.
    Say to an objectivist “Prove there is no God”
    Objectivist reply “You can’t prove a negative”

    That reply is false, and I can prove it.

    I have an empty glass in front of me and I state “There isn’t any water in this glass”
    “Oh yeah, prove it” says a voice from the crowd.
    Instead of evading the issue with “You can’t prove a negative”, I simply turn the glass over. The fact that no water poured out proves that there wasn’t any water
    in the glass. I have proved a negative.
    Will that stop objectivists from using “You can’t prove a negative”?
    Unfortunately, no.

  • The Real Steve, I can see that logic is not your forte. In your example, you can prove there is no water because you know what water is! You’ve seen it, you’ve drunk it, you’ve bathed in it. If you had no knowledge of water and had never seen it, you wouldn’t be able to say that there is no water in the glass. Nice try, lame analogy.

    Signed: an objectivist! so k. m. a. !!

  • Morbo,
    I am pretty sure you never read Atlas Shrugged. This is a sorry excuse of a review. Sorry you’re so offended, Comrade!

    Signed: an objectivist! so k. m. a. !!

  • You speak of logic? You admit that I proved a negative, which shows that one CAN prove a negative. Therefore the statement ” You can’t prove a negative” is wrong, which was my point. Therefore, anybody who uses that statement is stupid or deliberately lying.
    Lame comment on your part.

  • Now , If an atheist wants to remain honest and have any credibility, they should refrain from using the “You can’t prove a negative” copout, as it has been proven to be a lie. They could say ” I cannot prove there is no God” or “Although one can prove a negative, I am unable to do so in this particular case” or something along those lines. Will they? Do they even care about honesty? Let’s wait and see.

  • The one thing that you don’t cite about Ayn Rand is that she actually LIVED under the utopia that all you socialists aspire to install in Amercia. Rand could not bear to live under the Communists, did not want to be one of the 20 million murdered by the Soviets and yearned for freedom. When she came to America she was dirt poor, hungry and homeless, and yet she would not take charity, even from her boyfriend of the time.
    You libs want as system where you can commit mass genocide against the brilliant and self interested. The fact that you want to take our guns proves that the first thing on your agenda is mass murder. No thanks, you’ll have to take a few casualties from the barrel of my gun before you install your evil utopia.

  • The one thing that you don’t cite about Ayn Rand is that she actually LIVED under the utopia that all you socialists aspire to install in Amercia. Rand could not bear to live under the Communists, did not want to be one of the 20 million murdered by the Soviets and yearned for freedom. When she came to America she was dirt poor, hungry and homeless, and yet she would not take charity, even from her boyfriend of the time.

    WHO CARES??? SHE’S DEAD, GET A LIFE.

    You libs want as system where you can commit mass genocide against the brilliant and self interested. The fact that you want to take our guns proves that the first thing on your agenda is mass murder. No thanks, you’ll have to take a few casualties from the barrel of my gun before you install your evil utopia.

    ANYBODY WHO REJECTS THE ALMIGHTY RAND IS A LIB AND WANTS TO COMMIT MASS GENOCIDE???
    TYPICAL OBJECTIVIST BLATHER, AND ABSURD.

    IF YOU NEED A GURU, THAT’S YOUR ISSUE. BUT SOME OF US CAN THINK FOR OURSELVES.

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