New top Clinton strategist seeks to avoid ‘a thermonuclear climax’

Once the dust settles on the presidential campaign, some smart person will write an interesting article about Democratic voters who like Hillary Clinton a lot more than Hillary Clinton’s campaign strategy. More often than not, I tend to find myself in this category — I respect and trust her as a leader, but frequently find myself frustrated and annoyed with the moves made by her campaign.

It’s one reason I’ve been especially pleased by Mark Penn’s … well, whatever happened to Penn. By all accounts, he’s been responsible for most of the things that have bugged me the last few months. This is all the more encouraging given the approach preferred by Geoff Garin — Penn’s replacement as the campaign’s top strategist.

Mr. Garin, 54, joined the Clinton campaign several weeks ago to augment strategy. His elevation could herald a less negative tone as the candidate tries to catch Mr. Obama.

Inside the Clinton team, Mr. Penn advocated increasingly sharp attacks on Mr. Obama as Mrs. Clinton’s best option. Long before he joined the campaign, Mr. Garin argued that her route to success lay more in presenting her strengths than in assailing her opponent.

“The sweet spot a campaign needs to hit is the intersection between what makes the candidate special and what the voters feel they need,” he explained, praising Mrs. Clinton’s values, spunk and resilience.

Recalling a recent meeting with Mrs. Clinton, Mr. Garin said: “I had the same reaction so many people have: I wish everyone could see her this way. If we could help make that happen, that would be great.”

I suspect different players have different motivations, but my sense is that most of the high-profile Dems who’ve been urging Clinton to drop out are doing so, at least in part, because they fear months of relentlessly negative campaigning between Dems. Dems know Mark Penn, and they know his approach, so they could see where this race was poised to go.

And Garin doesn’t want to go there.

An ardent fan of the Washington Nationals, Mr. Garin cast his campaign role as that of “the seventh-inning guy, instead of the starter.” But his genial relationships throughout the party may offer some reassurance that the endgame of the nomination fight will not prove as damaging to Democratic hopes in the fall as some have feared.

“I don’t want there to be a thermonuclear climax,” he said. “Senator Clinton is committed to having a united Democratic Party at the end of this process. Senator Obama is committed to having a united Democratic Party at the end of this process. And we will have a united Democratic Party at the end of this process.”

That isn’t a quote we’d see from Mark Penn.

Josh Marshall noted this afternoon that there isn’t “much doubt that Clinton’s blunt force attacks have been counter-productive for her. I believe they soured many people who went into the voting phase of the contest open to supporting her.”

I think that’s right, and it’s bolstered by polling data that shows her with surprisingly high negatives, which have gotten worse, not better, as the Democratic race has gone on.

Now, realistically, we’re probably past the seventh inning of this game, and Clinton’s team is trailing by a margin that she probably won’t be able to overcome. New strategy or no, the numbers are stubborn.

But Garin’s intention to emphasize her strengths over Obama’s weaknesses is a win for everyone. It helps Clinton by improving her positives; it helps Obama who won’t have to defend himself and return fire; and it helps the party with less divisiveness.

It’s too soon to say, of course, but my guess is, when all is said and done, Clinton supporters will be left wondering what could have been if the campaign had pulled Penn for Garin after Iowa.

I’ve always been struck by how the negative spin fed to the media by Penn was at odds with HRC’s speeches themselves, many of her stump speeches have been on CSpan and they are usually pretty detailed and positive.

I agree that Penn’s presence has been a net negative. I blame her for not dumping him a lot earlier.

  • I don’t really understand the world you live in where you can so cleanly seperate the candidate from her campaign and her message. Let me try this out:

    “Paid for by Hillary Clinton for President”

    So you respect Hillary Clinton, just not Hillary Clinton for President Inc? That reminds me of when a relative tells me they respect President Bush, it’s just the Bush Administration that’s the problem…

    If your trust in Clinton as a leader was sound and well-founded you wouldn’t be finding yourself with a scalpel trying to seperate the candidate from her campaign. I’m not saying everything a candidate’s campaign says automatically lies at the candidate’s footsteps, but it’s not like Mark Penn was some joe off the street hired to talk nice about Hillary, he’s one of her top people.

  • Call me cynical, but I just see this as the next reinvention of Hillary. She’s a puppet who has let too many children put their hands… OK bad analogy.

  • This doesn’t surprise me about Penn. The guy is as arrogant as they come. How else can you explain the pathetic bumbling of Hillary’s campaign? “Oh, no; we don’t need the small states. We don’t need to compete in caucus states. We don’t need to raise money online. We don’t need a cohesive, far-reaching message. Etc., etc…”

    I also like that this guy thinks he’s some kind of revolutionary in the field of political strategy. I read an interesting historical take in the Marin IJ today (online here. It showed how these guys are just the latest and greatest, not some kind of omnipotent gurus that they’re made out to be.

    The problem starts when guys like Penn start to believe the BS that’s written about them. Guess what Mark? You’re not the first one (nor the best- obviously) to do this stuff! Get off your “Microtrends”, get back to basics and stop killing your candidate’s campaign!

  • I’d like to know who was most instrumental in Hillary voting for the AUM. That is when she was protecting herself against the right and weakening herself on the left. Penn and she were still doing Bill vs Wingnutia when it became Hill vs Obama.

    She hasn’t run a terrible campaign. She’s 1% short just like our past 2 prez candidates have been. She didn’t realize she was in a fight until she got knocked down a couple of times.

  • A sincere well-meaning piece but, as HateTheGame states above, it doesn’t acquiesce to the reality that a candidate is responsible for his or her own voice.

    If Hillary Clinton was indeed a marionette manipulated by Mark Penn into betraying her own best interests and instincts, that doesn’t speak well of her character.

    So it’s a self-contradictory thesis.

  • It’s one reason I’ve been especially pleased by Mark Penn’s … well, whatever happened to Penn.

    I would have been pleased if anything had actually happened to him. But it’s just smoke and mirrors. Instead, his ousting is just the latest easy lie.

    Senator Obama is committed to having a united Democratic Party at the end of this process.

    Actually, Mr. Garin, Senator Obama is committed to having a united party now. Otherwise he could’ve lashed out at her for any number of things. Instead, he’s consistently taken the high road.

    I used to respect Senator Clinton but this campaign has exposed her. Her most recent move to ‘sever’ her ties to Penn while not really changing anything is like a homage to the Bush Administration.

    It reminded me of Bush saying anyone in his Administration who had anything to do with leaking Plame to the media would be fired. We know exactly what kind of accountability to expect from Clinton, and I’m not prepared to accept that. I think, if nothing else, this campaign has shown Clinton is an awful manager and leader and does not deserve our respect or a chance at more responsibility.

    We need to demand more of the Democratic Party! We need to take back our country and re-earn the respect of the world. Clinton, Penn, and Ickes: Integrity. They’re doing it wrong.

  • This article states: “I respect and trust her as a leader, but frequently find myself frustrated and annoyed with the moves made by her campaign.”

    So basically, if something you like happens, it is to Clinton’s credit. If something you don’t like happens, then blame it on the campaign. You fail to acknowledge that “the moves made by her campaign” are completely within her power. If she can’t run her own campaign to your satisfaction, it should cast serious doubt on whether she would run this country to your satisfaction.

  • Penn’s semi-departure is good for the party, and great for Hillary. He is arguably a political genious, but he has no tact, and should never have put himself in front of the cameras.

    I think the Clintons can be loyal to a fault, and have paid enough for their loyalty to this dirtbag. I hope his company goes belly up for negotiating without her knowledge with the Columbians, she will no doubt rid herself of him once and for all soon enough.

  • She can fire all the peopel she wants to…the voting public still won’t elect her. She should go back to her playboy, impeached ex-president loser husband and disappear from the public to the Cayman Islands where they stash their $100 million.

  • All I know is that if Obama had run her type of campaign, he would have been run out of the US. Hillary’s problem is that she doesn’t know how to be accountable for things that go wrong in her camp, she’s a reactive rather than proactive manager. She knew about Penn’s outside connections with Columbia but she only gets rid of him when he’s politically inconvenient. It’s all about shifting blame and acting like the victim. Wolfson is now complaining that they’re over scrutinized by the media. Whatever. They knew what they were getting into when they started this campaign, now they should deal with it, without the whining and constant drama. The media has always scrutinized the Clintons because they have a history of dishonesty, triangulation and doing whatever is politically expedient.

  • I agree with what ‘doubtful’ said.

    It’s all a bit sad and disappointing. I voted for Billl Clinton and shared the outrage at the impeachment trial.

    My wife and I supported Hillary Clinton in the inital stages of the primary process.

    It’s no fun to wake up to the fact that we were worng and that much of the anti-Clinton stuff (preached by the likes of the odious William Kristol) was to a degree true all along,

  • Steve Benen said: I respect and trust her as a leader, but frequently find myself frustrated and annoyed with the moves made by her campaign

    Sorry, Stve, but the captain is always responsible for everything on the ship,. down to the work of the newest seaman apprentice. Hillary either initiated or approved the moves her campaign has made – if that is not true, then she’s even worse as a possible President than I think she is. She can’t get off with “I didn’t know.” And it’s not her staff that comes up with tales of Bosnian snipers and the rest of her fabrications.

  • Rick,
    I would say a “loser” is someone who thinks that it is spelled “looser.”

  • I can’t believe you say you trust Hillary but hate her campaign.

    That’s like saying you trust Bush but hate his presidency.

    And yes, they’re exactly the same thing.

    Hillary is the one in charge of her campaign. She chooses the people. She decides who to listen to and who to fire.

    Obama has run a stellar campaign and has avoided all the drama of the Clinton campaign. And Obama didn’t have to lend his campaign money.

    Clinton has proved through her campaign that she is NOT ready on Day One. I’m sorry you can’t separate your emotions from the facts here. She is not a good manager, period.

  • fjfjdvdv @ #9

    Wow.. I’m used to Obamaniacs going after Clinton supporters, but CB is not exactly one. This article speaks to his credibility as it is and should be treated as good news. Should every bit of news about Hillary be treated as negative?

    I think he should be applauded for writing his appreciation for something that helps progressives regardless of their choice of candidate.

  • This just sounds too much like the endless string of “reassessments” of Bu$h’s Iraq Follies that were promised—and then turned out to be more of the “stay-the-course” rubbish. Let’s try this one on for size:

    Hillary’s Plan B-through-Z is still Hillary’s Plan A—Plan McSameSame.

    Enough already. Boat hits iceberg. Boat sinks. No survivors. Film at 11….

  • alec sutton said: It’s no fun to wake up to the fact that we were worng and that much of the anti-Clinton stuff (preached by the likes of the odious William Kristol) was to a degree true all along,

    None of what the wingnuts preached about the Clintons was true. What they said about the Clintons is what they said about Al Gore and every other Democrat. Please don’t give them any credit for their hate-speech. That’s the worst kind of retroactive validation. Kristol and them had an agenda and tailored their lies to fit it.

    I’m disappointed with the Clintons too, but the level of things they’ve done in this campaign doesn’t merit full-blown Clinton-hatred. That’s what 20 years of wingnuts poisoning the environment with their lies has wrought. Hillary tells a small lie, suddenly it’s a huge lie. The Clinton’s are not “scumbags” as one unhigned commenter here often sputters.

    And do we really want to crap on the only Democratic President we’ve had in 28 years?

  • What doubtful said.

    Also, “whatever happened to Penn”???

    Here’s a newsflash, NOTHING happened to Mark Penn. That jerk is still advising the triangulating politician who kept him on her staff even after it became crystal clear to everyone but Mary that Penn wouldn’t stop working for the union busters even while he was the top advisor to a person trying to con the American workers that she’s on their side. That MF worked for BLACKWATER, for chrissakes.

    As for Garin, he smells like the good cop who comes in just to make the bad cop look better and make everyone glad he’s not still there beating on us. As long as Penn is still stinking up the joint, nothing has changed except they’re trying a new con job on us.

    But really, all this is moot. Hillary is toast, and if she wants to avoid becoming Nader on steroids, she needs to quit fucking with our chances in November.

  • John said:
    I can’t believe you say you trust Hillary but hate her campaign.
    That’s like saying you trust Bush but hate his presidency.
    And yes, they’re exactly the same thing.

    I disagree about the two items being the same thing. Your analogy reminds me more Lieberman’s comparison of the Iraqi political situation to our domestic political situation.

    And, no, the assinine paramilitary idea that the Captain is responsible for everything that happens doesn’t hold water either. It’s a simplistic product of a simple mind to compare a military command with a campaign organization.

  • I agree with HateTheGame. The author of this article is separating Hillary from her campaign and placing ALL the blame on Mark Penn. I don’t see Hillary as “being told what to do” by Penn but rather giving him the framework from which he would stratagize. IF she did not like and approve of his strategies, she could have told him so—-obviously she REALLY LIKED HIS STRATEGIES!! .Remember, Hillary likes to FIGHT and takes extraordinary PRIDE IN BEING A FIGHTER. Mark Penn may, indeed, be a dork; however, final responsibility lies with Hillary Clinton, she created her campaign enterprise and has shown she absolutely cannot run a 700-person team and cannot properly or wisely budget her campaign funds. Pizza and doughnuts, anyone?? How about housing her campaign people in the most elite hotels when they could have stayed at places like the holiday inn? How about all that money she spent on flowers? Were those flowers for the ultra expensive hotel rooms? Furthermore, Hillary fails at surrounding herself with brilliant people; she surrounded herself with “loyalists and friends”. True, people in her campaign made errors; however, Hillary KNEW this and continued to plunge forward in a scorched earth, trash-and-burn campaign, a campaign ULTIMATELY RUN BY HILLLARY AND BILL. Everyone knows the Clintons’ dirty political tactics, Mark Penn did his job with what they gave him to work. Again, the blame of where Hillary is at now lies solely on Hillary’s (and Bill’s) shoulders. The Clintons NEVER ADMIT TO BEING WRONG; they always find a scapegoat. Hillary KNEW full well what was going on in her campaign yet she never did anything to correct it.

    So be realiastic and stop trying to separate Hillary from her campaign, that is like trying to separate your head from your shoulders. It CANNOT be done, no matter how many webs you spin and yarn.

  • I want to like her, really I do. Heck, I used to like and respect her. But even though this is the right course for her campaign to take, it also casts further doubt on her ability as a leader. What kind of a leader is someone who blindly follows opportunistic advice like “be mean now, it will help your campaign” and “be nice now, it will help your campaign.” Whereas I feel like Obama’s campaign reflects his personality, with Hillary it seems like her personality reflects her most recent campaign strategy. And that makes me doubt her sincerity and vision.

  • [Penn] is arguably a political genious… -Greg

    LOLs for so many reasons.

    And I’ll be happy to take up the con side of that argument any day.

  • She hasn’t run a terrible campaign. She’s 1% short just like our past 2 prez candidates have been. She didn’t realize she was in a fight until she got knocked down a couple of times.

    “She didn’t realize she was in a fight” = never expected to have any real opposition, didn’t contemplate the possibility, didn’t plan for it, didn’t adapt her strategy or tactics once she finally figured out what was happening to her, still doesn’t get what the 2008 election is about for most Americans, doesn’t care enough to listen when we tell her it isn’t about what she’s offering.

    That’s called entitlement + blindness + arrogance + inability to adjust to circumstances.

    She’s run a truly terrible campaign–one for the books–start to finish. And Penn’s clearly going to finish it.

  • Couldnt resist checking in after a long and peaceful absence from the hysterical hatred of the political blogs and I see nothing has changed, except perhaps even more use of expletives now than in the past. Great educations. Most all of Hillary Clinton’s supporters I know have checked out. Stopped reading blogs, stopped listening to politics on the TV, abandoned Olbermann, Matthews and the like, and are sitting quietly at home nursing their wounds. They are mostly women, many of them “older” if 50 qualifies for that, angry beyond words and no longer the least bit interested in the fall election. They toy with voting for McCain but are more likely to just stay home. They like Bill, they like Hillary, and they dont like people who hate them although they were mature and reasonable enough to know that many people might oppose them. That distaste for Clinton Derangement Syndrome used to be reserved for Republicans. No longer.

    God knows I tried my best. I posted for months on many many blogs repeatedly that this stuff was getting dangerous and people better figure out how to cool it before Obama lost 30% of half the party. All I got was standard Republican Clinton hatred dressed up in the clothing of supposed progressives. To the horror of Clinton supporters, half her own party seems to think the Republicans were right in what they said and did to Bill, and they should do it even more vigorously to her. Half her own party seems to be too young and too uneducated to understand this has NOT been a negative campaign, nor are the Clintons racists, or that they fought for progressive causes all their life, or that they have put up with more pure political assassination attempts than any other people have had to endure, and that all the snark about the fact she is a woman was hurting other women very badly and convincing them that in this male dominated world, they are way behind Blacks in true equality.

    So good luck to you all I suppose. I will never understand this and dont have the time or energy anymore to try. I tried my best to help keep the peace. My conscience is clear, no matter what happens in November.

  • The long and close primary season has produced a totally unexpected result, a smarter voting base that is getting beyond the superficial “personality contest” mindset and starting to look for consistent judgment and self-evident management talent in a candidate for Chief Executive of our collective future. Lord knows we now know what damage a Chief Executive with self-serving interests, warped judgment and absent management talent can bring on our heads for a generation or so…

    Like many, I was in an evaluation mode not favoring either Clinton or Obama until recently. However the reactions of each under extreme pressure made my decision easy. I respect Obama for being forthright and courageous about race and staying on target with a statesman’s higher road. I also respect his very effective ability to manage a grass roots campaign, seemingly effortlessly yet very efficiently based on solid organization thinking with an open ear.

    I prefer to provide what limited trust I retain for politicians to a smart manager who thinks deeply and logically, has evidenced grace and brilliance under fatal fire turning a deathblow into an advantage and who has the courage of conviction to focus on winning without compromising ethics and common decency.

    If that all there is to the Change that Obama promises – that is more than we have had in complete generation (or two?). And I pray for that Change, however delivered.

    Its not about issues, those change with the wind – it’s HOW the person in charge deals with the stream of changing realities we can expect to hit us.

  • dale,

    You corrected me. I stand corrected. I overstated the case.

    Of course there were extravagant lies made up about the Clintons. No doubt their detractors were rather more odious than the Clintons themselves! LOL

    They are not thoroughly despicable people. They are disappointing people.

  • Jammer, if your and your friends’ interest in politics was strictly about the Clinton cult of personality, and if you lose interest in politics in general and don’t care about what happens in November if your horse is no longer in the race, American political discourse is better off without you. Go make a pilgrimage to the Clinton presidential library or something; the rest of us will be fine without you.

    And yes, I would say the same thing to Obama supporters who throw tantrums and shout that they are going to take their ball and go home in the event that he manages to lose the nomination.

  • Okay, let’s say that Geoff Garin is able to turn the Clinton campaign around so that it isn’t filled with negatives. No more kitchen sinks. No more knee-capping. No more putting herself and McCain above Obama. No more lies? No more browbeating the superdelegates to vote for her or trying to blackmail the DNC with a bloody floor fight in August. Just running a race on the issues and pointing out actual reasons she’s more qualified to be president than Obama.

    Would a total turn-around in campaigning style, her “political persona” change anything? Isn’t that risky? Many people support her BECAUSE of her marcho image.

    I’m not sure it would change anything. Many of her negatives have been self-inflicted. I doubt that Mark Penn forced her to tell that Tuzla story. I doubt that Mark Penn made her vote for the AUMF and so confidently support Bush’s lies. I doubt that Mark Penn made her vote against the cluster bomb ban, or FOR the Kyle-Lieberjman amendment. Even if she becomes Miss Manners, she still has the albatross of her record around her neck.

    And I think it’s “in her blood” to campaign as though it’s a Rocky-fight with blows below the belt. It’s been obvious she fully intends to “win” the candidacy by means fair or foul. There are less than three months left for her to repair her campaign image, but there’s no way she can repair her voting record on GW Bush’s agenda. I suspect it’s too little too late, even if Garin can get her to tone things down.

  • I just realized that most of us didn’t know what kind of campaign people wanted until Obama educated us on that point. There was a lot of anger among Democrats and a certain thirst for revenge. When I first heard Obama’s talk about bipartisanship, and healing, and unity I scoffed at it. But his message has really caught on.

    Oh and Maria at 26. Clinton must have had a lot of room to err, if she ran a terrible campaign and is still hypothetically within reach of the nomination. She hasn’t got blown out.

  • Jammer,

    Get over yourself and stop the concern trolling. You said it succinctly in your first paragraph:

    Most all of Hillary Clinton’s supporters I know have checked out.

    That’s their/your choice. If, as you posit later, the “party seems to be too young and too uneducated to understand this has NOT been a negative campaign,” then why can’t you take the heat? (And don’t forget, Hillary does better with the uneducated demo.)

    There’s no Clinton Derangement Syndrome here. No one is ranting about Vince Foster or blow jobs. We don’t need to make up stuff about Hillary; she does plenty of that on her own. The Obama supporters here have plenty of reason to support him and take issue with her candidacy.

    It’s not CDS to take issue with Mark Penn. It’s not CDS to take issue with the stump speech lies about sniper fire and dead women without insurance. It’s not CDS to take issue with her flip flop on MI and FL. It’s not CDS to be upset with her characterization of Obama as an empty suit while she praises McCain. It’s not CDS to watch as she sits idly by as Ferraro digs a racist hole with each ignorant statement.

    Just because you waltz in after a hiatus to remind us you think that our opinions are nothing more than derangement doesn’t make it so. It just makes you petty. Who the hell are you to tell me I can’t have a legitimate problem with those things?

    And if you think Obama supporters haven’t had to deal with venomous, ignorant dipshits from the Clinton side, then I’ve got an investment bank to sell you. Two bucks a share.

    You drop your concern bomb on us without refuting any of the points that people have brought up and then you disappear without waiting to discuss any relevant points. That’s the very definition of trolling.

  • New top Clinton strategist seeks to avoid ‘a thermonuclear climax’

    Wow, he doesn’t know what he’s missing. It’s better than a meth-fueled tryst.

  • Dale

    There was a lot of anger among Democrats and a certain thirst for revenge.

    This sort of fits a theory I have, too, about the intensity of the conflicts between the Obama and Clinton camps. I’ve thought that some (though not all) Americans have been so angry about the last eight years that the least little political thing that reminds them of the Bush administration’s actions — lies, obfuscations, illegal or shady acts, etc. — sets off an intensely angry reaction. And it doesn’t matter if a candidate in the Democratic party is the reminder. They’ll get the anger.

    I don’t see the two camps having the same basis for any anger they might experience. One reacts in anger to reminders of the Bush administration, and the other reacts in anger to the first camp’s anger. Neither has been able to explain the source of their anger to the other, so it just continues.

  • I’ll eat a bit of crow here. I’ve long thought the overlong campaign season and the gauntlet of primaries/caucuses served little purpose. However this year the time, distance and pressure showed us something about the candidates we wouldn’t have otherwise seen, and I think helped us pick the better one.

    I have no interest in wailing on Hillary Clinton; despite everything I don’t see her as a horrible person. What this campaign showed, I think, is that she doesn’t have the ability to come up with the right decision under pressure, and she’ll hire bad lieutenants and stick with them long after they should have been canned. In short, she’s not presidential material. (Few people are, so it’s not a major knock against her to say this.) Plus, the whole Former-President-as-First-Spouse thing looked like a nightmare that we’re lucky not to have to deal with.

  • Oh and Maria at 26. Clinton must have had a lot of room to err, if she ran a terrible campaign and is still hypothetically within reach of the nomination. She hasn’t got blown out.

    Well, she’s not within reach of the nomination, barring Obama getting caught with a live boy or a dead girl (and perhaps not even then), but all right (wink, wink), if you’re speaking hypothetically. More to the point, she started this race with an enormous advantage in name recognition, dollars, donors, committed superdelegates and large natural constituencies, not to mention a top spot in the entrenched Democratic Party power structure. She has systematically thrown away each of these advantages through staggeringly poor decision-making.

    Saying “she hasn’t been blown out” is a remarkably precipitous drop in reasonable expectations for how she should have done.

  • Jammer complains: …all the snark about the fact she is a woman was hurting other women very badly…

    Please show me where the “snark about the fact she is a woman” was or is here at the Carpetbagger site.

    Where is it?

  • Maria #26

    still doesn’t get what the 2008 election is about for most Americans, doesn’t care enough to listen when we tell her it isn’t about what she’s offering

    I don’t know that there is much evidence of this. She may very well “get” it – but so what? A former First Lady and second-term Senator is really not in a great position to sell “change” as a theme, except in the incremental sense of “different from Bush” and in the identity sense of being a woman. She likely did not realize how much of a “change” election this would be until it was underway (every cycle there are claims of change, and in many fewer the voters actually turn out to mean it). Timing is pretty well everything in politics; it turns out she was not the best candidate for the times. I’m not sure that means she isn’t listening (indeed, this sounds a lot like one of my pet peeves about Obama supporters: the only thing Clinton could have done to make you happy was not run, which betrays an extraordinary sense of entitlement on your part on behalf of your candidate).

    Brooks #31

    Jammer, if your and your friends’ interest in politics was strictly about the Clinton cult of personality, and if you lose interest in politics in general and don’t care about what happens in November if your horse is no longer in the race, American political discourse is better off without you.

    I agree that neither side should sit out the general, cross over to McCain because their candidate didn’t win, or even make such threats. But I’m not sure Jammer really did that so much as expressing a concern that it would happen. And it seems like you are being far to blithe towards the many second-wave feminists for whom Clinton’s candidacy was a Really Big Deal. I’ve spoken to many of them who feel – rightly or wrongly, it hardly matters in the voting booth – that what had happened to Clinton (either in the big picture or the day-to-day attacks etc) is painfully similar to what happened to them in the workplace or other arenas where they ran into a ceiling and got passed by younger men who golfed with the CEO or were from the same frat as the COO or who never had to leave work to deal with a sick child or whatever. Mocking that sizable group of mainly lifelong Democrats is not productive, indeed it feeds into exactly what they are already feeling. No matter who one supports or how one personally feels about identity politics, as an objective matter of political analysis you have to have an appreciation for the real problem of the first credible woman and the first credible black candidate running against each other one-on-one. Yes we can be very proud, doubly proud in a sense, that it is happening. But one very large, loyal, necessary part of the Democratic voting bloc will inevitably end up very disappointed in a historical sense that is harder to overcome than your run-of-the-mill primary loss. Jammer raises a legitimate issue.

  • track the money going into the Clinton campaign from the Colombian drug money via lobbyists, and President Uribe’s comments against Obama…and President Clinton’s ties to this country’s financial interest in our country.

    Yes, Colombia’s economy revolves around drugs…feel sorry for the blue-collar workers giving donations – paying the salary of people in Hillary’s campaign trying to outsource their jobs…

  • “I’ve spoken to many of them who feel – rightly or wrongly, … that what had happened to Clinton … is painfully similar to what happened to them in the workplace or other arenas where they ran into a ceiling and got passed by younger men who golfed with the CEO or were from the same frat as the COO or who never had to leave work to deal with a sick child or whatever.”

    EXACTLY!!!! That’s how Clinton wants them to feel – like her not winning would be the manifestation of their own grievance against society. It’s classic Rove – find the itch and then scratch it. Very powerful motivator!

    This is the reverse of what Ferraro did. She set out to make blue collar males feel – rightly or wrongly – that what happened to Clinton is painfully similar to what happened to them in the workplace or other arenas where they lost their jobs, or were passed over for promotion because (due to affirmative action) less qualified blacks are rewarded with the jobs that should go to more qualified whites.

    It’s called the politics of division – or in the terminology most associated with the Clintions: triangulation. It sucks!

    I’d like to say it was all Penn …. we’ll see.

  • “I respect and trust her as a leader, but frequently find myself frustrated and annoyed with the moves made by her campaign.”

    I’m sorry. I have to disagree with you very strongly. Campaigns are reflections of the candidates — their judgment, their ability to pick people, their ability to manage people, their ability to lead.

    It has to be faced that on all those counts, Hillary Clinton has been an abject failure, as she would be an abject failure as president.

  • This is an interesting discussion. I think those of us under 50, especially males, really need to take a step back and consider the perspective and life experience of women over fifty. Going out into the workforce in the ’60s or ’70s was completely different than today. That’s not to say that we have acheived parity yet, because we obviosly have not. But as late as the ’70s many jobs were listed as women’s jobs or men’s jobs. And the chances of women moving up in a company were very low.

    I had not really thought about this, but I can see where some women might see Obama as the young upstart man jumping the glass ceiling, while Clinton gets passed over.

    I personally have gravitated to Obama for reasons that I believe have little to nothing to do with gender or race (though I’d be less than honest if I didn’t acknowledge a little smile at the symbolic value of a woman or Arican American POTUS). For me, Obama’s message of pragmatic solutions and change resonated. And as this campaign has gone on I have been impressed by how he has run his organization with dignity, poise and skill. Taken together, Obama’s campaign has proven to me that he has what it takes to be a competent POTUS.

    Having said that, if Clinton somehow gets the nomination, I will vote for her. I hope that each of us can put our emotions in check and look at the bigger picture. We do not want McCain to be the next POTUS. Therefore, we all need to rally around the Democratic nominee.

  • Mark Pencil: You know, I almost deleted the lines you quoted because I felt they were not quite defensible. As you say, elections are very much about hitting the mood and the moment: the right person at the right place at the right time. Clinton wasn’t it this time. At another time, she might have been. So it wasn’t quite fair of me to imply that she should have been something she never expected that we really wanted (and, I’d add, that she’s not capable of being), and I’ll take my medicine for that. (The arrogance of not planning for a race past Super Tuesday or, indeed, for any viable opponent–well, she gets no pass for that.)

    As for “the only Clinton could have done to make [Obama supporters] happy was not run,” that’s a bit out of bounds. There are some Clinton detractors who began in that position and nothing would change their minds, but I think you’re underestimating and dismissing the number of Obama supporters who came to his camp via a process of real disillusionment with Clinton. Over and over, here and all over all the progressive blogs, you’ve heard stories from people who either started out as Clinton supporters or began by being perfectly happy with the idea that Clinton might get the nomination. (I’m in the latter group; she wasn’t my first choice, but neither was Obama.) And again and again, you’ve heard people explain why they came to be bewildered by, disappointed with and/or actively contemptuous of Clinton for the way she’s conducted this campaign.

    The moment my thinning thread of support for her broke irreparably was the moment she began repeatedly extolling McCain’s virtues and qualifications over her Democratic opponent’s. I don’t expect Clinton or any other candidate to put on a persona that’s an utter mismatch for her or his temperament and record. I do expect Democrats to never, ever cross the line of favoring their own fortunes–if that’s what she thinks she’s been doing–over the strength of the party and of progressive ideals.

  • The moment my thinning thread of support for her broke irreparably was the moment she began repeatedly extolling McCain’s virtues and qualifications over her Democratic opponent’s.

    Well said. That was my turning point too.

  • A campaign is much more than the gaffes and gotchas. There are the campaign events, the position papers, the debates and much more.

  • Maria, fair enough. I, too, overgeneralized on that one (and indeed, while Clinton was my first choice, some time ago I thought the time had come for her to gracefully return to the Senate). Part of my problem is that while I understand the argument many are making against CB’s post, I understand exactly what he means. I’ve met Clinton and heard her speak in a relatively small group and she was great – warm, witty, self-deprecating, obviously intelligent. Rather than helping her express that, her campaign has somehow cast a blanket over that (not unlike how Gore’s campaign made him seem stiffer and less humorous than he really is, on the post-loss SNL for example).

    As Dale notes at 50, there is a lot of pieces to a campaign and most dont get much attention. But I have a certain sympathy for all of the candidates in that even at the scale of say a statewide or a Congressional campaign, the candidate must give up a lot of control (in fact, in campaign training circles the oft-repeated critique is always of a candidate who micromanages; the candidate is supposed to be “the candidate” and let the specialists behind the scenes do their jobs). In the scale of a Presidential, I do think it it is hard to truly say as Helena Montana does at 46 “Campaigns are reflections of the candidates — their judgment, their ability to pick people, their ability to manage people, their ability to lead“. That is an idealized view that is not the reality in modern campaigns.

    Indeed, one of the most impressive things about Obama is that he seems to have a campaign that, despite all of the odds against it and all of the ways it can go wrong, is in sync with who he wants to project. It is much much harder than it looks.

  • I think what we’ve neglected to consider is the reduced status of Mark Penn on the career of commenter Mark Pencil.

  • Im with the majority here in that Hillary needs to take the lions share of blame on Penn. This is not Ferraro who is some tenuously aligned high level, old school supporter. This is one of the top three people of her campaign.

    Ferraro was, for the most part,blasted and put in her place by the Hillary campaign (yet she didnt learn how stop when youre behind and not to keep digging the hole deeper). So Hillary gets a pass on Ferraro for me.

    But not Penn.

    My problem has always been that Hillary never shouts these people down when they say dumb things. Dumb things about democrats, dumb things about the democratic primary process, dumb things (praising) about republicans. I dont mind attacking your opponent, thats politics, but dont attack dems, especially when you are the insider.

    ‘Small states dont matter’ – where was Hillary immediately coming back and strenuously saying ‘that statement does not reflect me or my campaign and that idiot has been fired’

    ‘Caucuses dont matter’ – where was Hillary?

    And then Hillary herself will parrot other terrible stances ‘McCain better than Obama’ ‘Florida and Michigan count now’ and the rest.

    Hillary has never once denounced things Penn has said that offend democrats and Penn has never, and appears still has not, paid a price either through a public rebuke and refutation or dismissal.

    So Hillary gets saddled with all of Penns actions as she had ample opportunity to immediately tamp down anything he said yet she didnt. So to me she not only tacitly approved, she expressly approved of his message.

  • Would it upset people if I agreed with *everybody* (except that Jammer twerp, who can go take a long walk off a short peer)? 🙂

    Seriously, I’m with everybody, including CB, who says they respect Hillary. I do respect her because she is a smart and capable person. She has a lot to be justifiably proud of, and I think she is well-qualified to be president.

    Unfortunately, like others, I can’t separate her from her campaign. The Hillary Clinton campaign belongs to Hillary Clinton, not Mark Penn. Everything that went wrong is, ultimately, her responsibility. When Obama came out of Super Tuesday with some real momentum, when Penn began going off message and saying stupid things about what was up with the nomination, when all these things and more went wrong, Hillary should have immediately cracked the whip, taken charge, and straightened things out.

    Instead she let things drag on for two months, with the result that the odds of her getting the nod have gotten almost too long for her to beat. And now she’s finally switching from Mark Penn to someone else who is more respected? Too little, too late, as far as I’m concerned. She should have taken charge and given him the boot months ago. I can’t support her now that she spent so much time just letting the mistakes and gaffes pile up.

    And just to make things even murkier, I can’t stop seeing parallels between this and Attorney General Mukasey, who was appointed in Gonzales’ wake, billed as a serious and respectable law man, and immediately turned out to be exactly the same as his predecessor. Likewise, particularly considering that Penn is still involved in the Clinton campaign, I can’t help but suspect that this is just a smoke cover to convince everyone that more of the same is really a radical change.

    Which is not to say that I think she’s really being like Bush. I don’t think this is so much a matter of blind partisan hackery. Instead, I think she’s a brilliant lawyer and politician who has unfortunately gotten stuck in her ways and has been sand-bagged by the sudden switch to a new paradigm. She’s still a good, respectable person. But she’s made too many mistakes for me to want her to be the good, respectable person who ends up in the White House.

    Of course, if she does manage to pull off a near-impossible victory and win the democratic nomination, I’ll be happy to vote for her none the less. She’s head, shoulders, and waist above anything the GOP can offer, particularly McCain.

  • Thanks, Jammer.
    Don’t think I could have done much better than you here.

    God knows I tried my best. I posted for months on many many blogs repeatedly that this stuff was getting dangerous and people better figure out how to cool it before Obama lost 30% of half the party. All I got was standard Republican Clinton hatred dressed up in the clothing of supposed progressives.

    To the horror of Clinton supporters, half her own party seems to think the Republicans were right in what they said and did to Bill, and they should do it even more vigorously to her.

    Half her own party seems to be too young and too uneducated to understand this has NOT been a negative campaign, nor are the Clintons racists, or that they fought for progressive causes all their life, or that they have put up with more pure political assassination attempts than any other people have had to endure, and that all the snark about the fact she is a woman was hurting other women very badly and convincing them that in this male dominated world, they are way behind Blacks in true equality.

    So good luck to you all I suppose. I will never understand this and dont have the time or energy anymore to try. I tried my best to help keep the peace. My conscience is clear, no matter what happens in November.

  • The media and the Washington elite attacked Bill and Hillary as soon as they arrived in Washington as President and First Lady.
    Hillary and Bill were not the elite East Coast blue-bloods. The first joke I heard was that Hillary and Bill would attend the swearing in ceremony in the back of a pick-up truck. This was a national news agency. And it never stopped after that.
    I love Hillary Clinton. I think Bill Clinton did a wonderful job balancing the budget while enduring a Republican congress. He has continued to contribute to the world as a past president. He would be such an asset to Hillary.
    At least Bill made love, not war.

  • How inconsiderate of the North Carolina coach not to pull his team from the floor and concede defeat when the score was 40-12 against them in the first half and all the “experts” and all statistical projections declared that the game was over. (They came within 4 points of Kansas before the game was really over.)

    (Saw the Calipari basketball analogy on a “progressive” blog. This one is more applicable.)

    And how about all those ads asking whether Clinton should quit which have been running
    on progressive blogs for months now. Who takes the high road in campaigning? Just imagine the self-righteousness had the Clinton campaign been running this.against Obama.

  • Hillary was playing both sides of the fence. You can’t trust her. She knew what Penn was up to..he just got caught.

  • Doubtful
    “No Foster and no blow job references here. Convenient memory

    I remember an entry here which said that Hillary should give W a blow job, so he could be impeached. It went on to say that if she had taken care of her husband properly, we wouldn’t have had eight years of Bush. Believe it was written by a poster calle “Little Bear.”

    No one challenged this as inappropriate, except me, and I was put down for it by several posters here..

  • See, the thing about basketball, Impartial, is that there’s no upper limit of points you can get if you hang in there. So, no, it’s not an applicable analogy.

    If Obama had ended up where Clinton is now, do you really think he wouldn’t be gone by now?

    Don’t get me wrong; I think this thing should play out through the primaries. But the reason it should do so is that it’s going to take that long to get the most hard-core Clinton supporters to really look at the math and accept that there is no way she can win this thing. And as Chris Bowers has been eloquently arguing, slowly bringing people around to the acceptance that she has no path to the nomination is better for all of us than having a load of Obama superdelegates declare now and give Clinton supporters the “She could have won but they shut that thing down early!” false narrative until the end of time.

  • Maria

    Are you kidding me? And any suggestion that he drop out before anyone had achieved the 2025 needed would promptly be called racism by his supporters. You don’t honestly believe otherwise?

  • Dale #52 – I certainly am concerned about that 🙂

    Perhaps the more apropos name now would be Mark Eraser. or Mark Erased.

  • Maria

    The point about the basketball game was that North Carolina did not give up just because the “experts” said the game was over, and they almost proved them wrong.

    All the statistical analysis and polling don’t mean anything at all if people become disenchanted and decide not to vote. You see, elections are about people, not just numbers, and people are inconveniently unpredictable sometimes.

  • Okay, Impartial. Don’t stop believing! Hold on tight to your dreams.

    Mark Pencil: Given that he’s still chugging away on her campaign, I think Mark Slightly Smudged may be more accurate.

  • Maria

    Isn’t HOPE the centerpoint of your campaign? How about “Yes, we can.” Rather cynical for an Obama supporter.

    . Have no other investment in outcome. None of those still running my candidate.

  • Impartial said:
    “Are you kidding me? And any suggestion that he drop out before anyone had achieved the 2025 needed would promptly be called racism by his supporters…”

    News flash, he’s winning and unless he pulls a Spitzer all indications are he’s already won. Calls for her to resign, at least those from public figures, aren’t about her being a woman, a Clinton, or anything else. Its just the recognition that she lost and an eagerness by the party to focus on McCain so they don’t let the unprecedented opportunity to take back the White House slip away.

    As for playing the race card, that is only going to happen if superdlegates reverse the will of the people and hand Clinton the nomination – which they won’t possibly do.

  • Hilllary Clinton is a populist as well as Barak Obama. They declared themselves staunch opposers to the free trade agreement with Colombia just because unions are against it. But the democrat candidates forget that Colombia is one of the few allies that US has been left with in South America and the situation is leaning periously toward leftist regimes in that volatile region as we speak (or write) and sooner or later US will lose control over that area and its security could be in jeopardy, not to mention, its reliance on the Venezuelan oil.
    On the othe hand, the only reason Bill Clinton is “supporting” the free trade with Colombia is because he already received $800,000 from an organization in Colombia who wants to lobby in favor of the free trade and of course he has to be consistent with his former stand regarding this subject, otherwise he would have to be “dismissed” as Hillary’s top adviser as it happened with Penn. Hypocritical stand, isn’t it?

  • If Clinton is reliant on Mark Penn or anyone else to get her message correct then she has bigger problems than just being weak on leadership and charisma. She is good at setting goals and working hard for them, but she lacks the interpersonal skills required for bringing unity and the spontanaeity that is required for being charismatic leaders. Her profile is useful for the democrats to steer this country in the right direction and pushing through their agenda, but I am not sure she will ever be good as president. When you are as ambitious as Clinton, one thing that does rack up is baggage and “political capital”, and she has racked up a lot of it!

    Suffice to say Obama is a prodigy of his profession – he is like the Roger Federer, Tiger Woods or Michael Jordan of politics. It doesn’t matter who you support ordinarily, this guy is extraordinary and you can’t help but hope he does well.

  • Partial,

    You’re analogy is absolutely stupid. Sports scores are not finite; the number of delegates is.

    And, yeah, there were be the occasional troll spouting the CDS talking points, but you know full well, when I talk about the commenters here I’m referring to a core group of regulars who are firmly grounded in reality.

    So get over yourself.

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