No, the Obama campaign did not embrace Che Guevera

The far-right sure does find some odd things to get excited about.

If you’ve perused the major conservative blogs over the 12 hours or so, you’ve no doubt seen the major-league freak-out about the Obama campaign allegedly opening an office in Texas with a Che Guevera flag. Ed Morrissey, who is usually a little less unhinged than some of his cohorts, got the ball rolling yesterday.

Oh, my. Barack Obama may want to call his new Houston office and suggest some decorating ideas. Take a look at the flag flying in the office at the moment:

No, that’s not a Texas state flag with a picture of Obama on it. It’s the flag of the Castro-led Cuba regime, with Che Guevara’s face superimposed on the side. A Fox report from Houston captured this image as it showed Obama supporters celebrating his momentum after Super Tuesday.

And with that, they were off and running. James Joyner put together a quick collection of clips:

* Charles Johnson: “Che Guevara Flags in Obama’s Houston Office”

* Red State: “Texas Communists For Obama (Apparently They Were Out of Himmler)”

* Matt Bramanti: “Obama office adores psychotic Marxist thug”

* Ed Driscoll: “Sixties Radical Chic, Frozen In Amber”

* Curt@Flopping Aces and Don Surber weigh in with “Che Obama”

* Michael Goldfarb: “Che You Can Believe In”

Let’s just take a moment to nip this in the bud, shall we?

This started with a report run by the Fox affiliate in Houston. As the station’s report makes clear, “The office featured in this video is funded by volunteers of the Barack Obama Campaign and is not an official headquarters for his campaign.”

So, right off the bat, every far-right blogger who said the Obama campaign’s official Houston office features a Che/Castro flag is mistaken.

The reality is, a volunteer found office space in advance of actual campaign staffers arriving in Houston. One of these volunteers put up the flag, presumably taken from some dorm-room wall. When actual, paid campaign aides show up — they’re due by the end of the week — one can safely assume the flag will be gone.

As scandals go, this one barely passes the yawn test. That so many conservatives immediately seized upon it suggests a certain unattractive desperation.

Oddly enough, Morrissey adds that it’s incumbent on Obama to “renounce any affinity for Che and the Fidel Castro regime.” Seriously, Ed? Is this what it’s come to? Some random volunteer gets filmed by a Fox affiliate with a dumb flag and it becomes necessary for a sitting U.S. senator and leading presidential candidate to publicly renounce Communists?

As Joyner concluded, “The suggestion that Americans need to start swearing loyalty oaths … is light years beyond irritating.”

As long as we’re on the subject, though, Robert Farley notes that if we want to talk about crazy political ideas from partisans in Texas, we should take a closer look at the official state Republican Party platform.

* The Party calls for the United States monetary system to be returned to the gold standard. Since the Federal Reserve System is a private corporation, has no reserves, and is not subject to taxation or audit, we call on Congress to abolish this institution and reassume its authority, enumerated by Article I, Section 8 of the United States Constitution, for the coinage of money.

* The party opposes the decriminalization of sodomy….We publicly rebuke judges Chief Justice Murphy and John Anderson, who ruled that the 100 year-old Texas sodomy law is unconstitutional, and ask that all members of the Republican Party of Texas oppose their re-election.

* We urge that the IRS be abolished and the Sixteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution be repealed. A constitutional tax, collected and controlled by the States, must generate sufficient revenue for the legitimate tasks of the national government.

* The Party believes the minimum wage law should be repealed.

* The Party believes it is in the best interest of the citizens of the United States that we immediately rescind our membership in, as well as all financial and military contributions to, the United Nations.

* The Party urges Congress to support HJR 77, the Panama and America Security Act, which declare the Carter-Torrijos Treaty null and void. We support re-establishing United States control over the Canal in order to retain our military bases in Panama, to preserve our right to transit through the Canal, and to prevent the establishment of Chinese missile bases in Panama.

These aren’t the wacky opinions of some random campaign volunteer; this is the official platform of the Texas Republican Party.

If it behooves Obama to renounce Che, would it also behoove McCain to renounce the Texas GOP’s lunacy?

Now wait a second.

I didn’t know that the Chinese have missles in Panama!!!!!!

I can’t believe that President Clinton and Senators Obama and Clinton allowed for the ChiComs to take over Panama.

I am outraged.

I’m voting for McCain!!!!

  • One wonders, is the GOP attack machine just getting warmed up, or is this the best they can do?

    (Note to Democrats everywhere: Please do not let Fox affiliates film you. It will only be used for nefarious purposes.)

  • to prevent the establishment of Chinese missile bases in Panama.

    Yea, Verily, good mine host of the Carpetbagger, thou jesteth?

    If we’re going to “to prevent the establishment of Chinese missile bases” somewhere, let’s pick a more enjoyable place than Panama. St. Bart’s? Take Martinique from the French?

  • I guess the Confederate flag, which stands for slavery, is OK, but a flag with Che Guevera is bad.

    Got it.

    I’d say at this point that the wingnuts are doing Obama’s work for him. The more they caterwall the more Obama voters will say “jeez, if those assholes hate him I better get out and vote!”

  • Oddly enough, Morrissey adds that it’s incumbent on Obama to “renounce any affinity for Che and the Fidel Castro regime.” Seriously, Ed? Is this what it’s come to? Some random volunteer gets filmed by a Fox affiliate with a dumb flag and it becomes necessary for a sitting U.S. senator and leading presidential candidate to publicly renounce Communists?

    It may not be incumbent, but if he doesn’t need to do it now, he’ll need to do it tomorrow, when this story is on the front page of the New York Post.

    We urge that the IRS be abolished and the Sixteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution be repealed.

    Er, so does the guy who won two (possibly three) GOP contests over the weekend.

  • Those bullet points at the end make me think one thing…

    These are sound like some Ron Paul supporters that no longer have a candidate to support. Maybe they think they can hijack Obama’s popularity and piggyback there message on it.

    It’s just a theory.

  • So, right off the bat, every far-right blogger who said the Obama campaign’s official Houston office features a Che/Castro flag is mistaken.

    Hand out the cigars, as we’re witnessing the birth of the newest right wing zombie lie. This one will be with us for as long as Obama is campaigning. If he wins the nomination, it’ll still be being passed around on election night.

    The party opposes the decriminalization of sodomy…

    Remember, Osama smiles every time you have oral sex. Down with going down!

  • This is just business as usual for the party that can’t be serious about much of anything, other than tax cuts for the wealthy.

  • BTW, would Ed like to renounce this, given he’s a CPACer? Just askin’, especially about that last poster pic.

  • … would it also behoove McCain to renounce the Texas GOP’s lunacy?

    Um … one problem: These clowns don’t see that platform as “lunacy.”

    We’re talking about people who think torture is dandy, consider criticism of Bush equal to treason, and wouldn’t know reality if it showed up in their mother’s basement with a truckload of Cheetoh’s and a pair of hookers.

    To think any of them will renounce what they actually think are good ideas is expecting way, way too much.

  • Now, I am sure that he didn’t hang that, and yes, it’s overdone. But if a ‘volunteer’ office for Rudy or Mitt flew a Nazi flag on the wall, it would be all over lefty sites, and I bet some news coverage too.

    Obama won’t wear a flag pin, won’t salute, and his ‘volunteers’ have flags of a mass murderer on the wall. All it does is prove that some of Obama’s volunteers are kooks (and Socialists and Communists).

    No, it’s not a HUGE deal, but if it was a Nazi flag in a Romney volunteer room, you can bet your bottom-dollar that it’d be front-page NY Times material and reporters would hound him for days. That’s why these guys posted this stuff. To prove a point. Double-Standard.

  • Last time i checked, we hadn’t payed our UN dues in quite some time; i think we several billion.

    In any case, Obama’s best defense is his grass root support. It will be interesting to see how well the smear machine works against it. I see two major differences from the ’04 election: the very involved movement behind Obama and the increased power of internet communications. Granted, the latter can be used against him, but nipping the smears in the bud will also be the best defense.

    Still, he’ll need to be more proactive in fighting the smears than Kerry was. He cannot let the wounds fester too much before cauterizing them.

    (all this assumes an Obama nomination…i’m speaking hyptothetically)

  • I’ve been to that site in Houston (I volunteered there a week or so ago), and I saw nothing of the sort. If it was up, it certainly wasn’t up for any serious amount of time…

    What a dumb thing to try to pin on Obama. How desperate.

  • I love it…. can’t see comments without a Tax Cuts for the Wealthy comment.

    Did you know that the Bush (wealthy) tax cuts have produced the following:
    1) about 10 million of the poorest who paid taxes under Clinton, do not pay now?
    2) the richest 20% now pay a LARGER share of all of the taxes collected than they did under Clinton?
    3) Brining in more money.

    So…. take that tired, stupid argument to the cleaners. It’s dirty and smells.
    Maybe I should say that Clinton hates poor people because he taxes MORE of them. See? That’s how stupid your tax-cuts for the rich argument is. Read the facts. Everybody got a cut – and the poorest (that paid under Clinton) pay nothing now. Duh.

  • I didn’t know Che was a “mass murderer” but I’d be interested in seeing your documentation on that.

  • Obama won’t wear a flag pin, won’t salute, and his ‘volunteers’ have flags of a mass murderer on the wall.

    Ster shows us how it’s done – roll up the idiot zombie lies into a ball and let ‘e roll!

    Ster, I might bother refuting that crap if it wasn’t so ridiculously stupid on its face.

  • You want proof? Do you read history? Or just like the fashionable T-Shirts?

    Go to CubaArchive.org — Heck… or go to the NY Times!!!

    Here’s a list of KNOWN victims: (If you have a membership, just search the NYTimes website for articles.)

    14 executed by Che in the Sierra Maestra during the anti-Batista guerrilla struggle (1957-1958):

    1. ARISTIDIO 2. MANUEL CAPITÁN 3. JUAN CHANG 4. “BISCO” ECHEVARRÍA 5. ECHEVARRÍA BROTHER #1

    6. ECHEVARRÍA BROTHER #2 7. EUTIMIO GUERRA 8. DIONISIO LEBRIGIO 9. JUAN LEBRIGIO 10. “EL NEGRO” NÁPOLES

    11. “CHICHO” OSORIO 12. ONE UNIDENTIFIED TEACHER (“EL MAESTRO) 13.-14. 2 UNIDENTIFIED PEASANTS

    10 executed in Santa Clara at Che’s orders in only two days (January 1959):

    1. RAMÓN ALBA 2. JOSÉ BARROSO 3. JOAQUÍN CASILLAS 4. FÉLIX CRUZ 5. ALEJANDRO GARCÍA OLAYÓN

    6. HÉCTOR MIRABAL 7. J. MIRABAL 8. FÉLIX MONTANO 9. CORNELIO ROJAS 10. VILALLA

    156 executed at La Cabaña Fortress prison at Che Guevara’s orders:

    1. VILAU ABREU 2. HUMBERTO AGUIAR 3. GERMÁN AGUIRRE 4. PELAYO ALAYÓN 5. JOSÉ LUIS ALFARO

    6. PEDRO ALFARO 7. MARIANO ALONSO 8. JOSÉ ALVARO 9. ANIELLA 10. MARIO ARES POLO

    11. JOSÉ RAMÓN BACALLAO 12. CEVERINO BARRIOS 13. EUGENIO BÉCQUER 14. FRANCISCO BÉCQUER

    15. RAMÓN BISCET 16. ROBERTO CALZADILLA 17. EUFEMIO CANO 18. JUAN CAPOTE FIALLO

    19. ANTONIO CARRALERO 20. GERTRUDIS CASTELLANOS 21. JOSÉ CASTAÑO QUEVEDO 22. RAÚL CASTAÑO

    23. EUFEMIO CHALA 24. JOSÉ CHAMACE 25. JOSÉ CHAMIZO 26. RAÚL CLAUSELL 27. ÁNGEL CLAUSELL

    28. DEMETRIO CLAUSELL 29. JOSÉ CLAUSELL 30. ELOY CONTRERAS 31. ALBERTO CORBO 32. EMILIO CRUZ

    33. JUAN FELIPE CRUZ 34. ORESTES CRUZ 35. HUMBERTO CUEVAS 36. CUNY 37. ANTONIO DE BECHE

    38. MATEO DELGADO 39. ARMANDO DELGADO 40. RAMÓN DESPAIGNE 41. JOSÉ DÍAZ CABEZAS

    42. ANTONIO DUARTE 43. RAMÓN FERNÁNDEZ OJEDA 44. RUDY FERNÁNDEZ 45. FERRÁN ALFONSO

    46. SALVADOR FERRERO 47. VICTOR FIGUEREDO 48. EDUARDO FORTE 49. UGARDE GALÁN

    50. RAFAEL GARCÍA MUÑIZ 51. ADALBERTO GARCÍA 52. ALBERTO GARCÍA 53. JACINTO GARCÍA

    54. EVELIO GASPAR 55. ARMADA GIL Y DIEZ CABEZAS 56. JOSÉ GONZÁLEZ MALAGÓN 57. EVARISTO GONZÁLEZ

    58. EZEQUIEL GONZÁLEZ 59. SECUNDINO GONZÁLEZ 60. RICARDO GRAO 61. BONIFACIO GRASSO

    62. RICARDO JOSÉ GRAU 63. OSCAR GUERRA 64. JULIÁN HERNÁNDEZ 65. FRANCISCO HERNÁNDEZ LEYVA

    66. ANTONIO HERNÁNDEZ 67. GERARDO HERNÁNDEZ 68. OLEGARIO HERNÁNDEZ 69. SECUNDINO HERNÁNDEZ

    70. JESÚS INSUA 71. ENRIQUE IZQUIERDO 72. OSMÍN JORRÍN 73. SILVINO JUNCO 74. ENRIQUE LA ROSA

    75. IGNACIO LASAPARLA 76. JESÚS LAZO 77. ARIEL LIMA LAGO 78. RAÚL LÓPEZ VIDAL 79. ARMANDO MAS

    80. ENERLIO MATA 81. ELPIDIO MEDEROS 82. JOSÉ MEDINAS 83. JOSÉ MESA 84. FIDEL MESQUÍA

    85. JUAN MILIÁN 86. FRANCISCO MIRABAL 87. LUIS MIRABAL 88. ERNESTO MORALES 89. PEDRO MOREJÓN

    90. DR. CARLOS MUIÑO, MD. 91. CÉSAR NECOLARDES ROJAS 92. VICTOR NECOLARDES ROJAS 93. JOSÉ NUÑEZ

    94. VITERBO O’RREILLY 95. FÉLIX OVIEDO 96. MANUEL PANEQUE 97. PEDRO PEDROSO 98. RAFAEL PEDROSO

    99. DIEGO PÉREZ CUESTA 100. JUAN PÉREZ 101. DIEGO PÉREZ CRELA 102. JOSÉ POZO 103. EMILIO PUEBLA

    104. ALFREDO PUPO 105. SECUNDINO RAMÍREZ 106. RAMÓN RAMOS 107. PABLO RAVELO 108. RUBÉN REY

    109. MARIO RISQUELME 110. FERNANDO RIVERA 111. PABLO RIVERA 112. MANUEL RODRÍGUEZ

    113. MARCOS RODRÍGUEZ 114. NEMESIO RODRÍGUEZ 115. PABLO RODRÍGUEZ 116. RICARDO RODRÍGUEZ

    117. JOSÉ SALDARA 118. PEDRO SANTANA 119. SERGIO SIERRA 120. JUAN SILVA 121. FAUSTO SILVA

    122. ELPIDIO SOLER 123. JESÚS SOSA BLANCO 124. RENATO SOSA 125. SERGIO SOSA 126. PEDRO SOTO

    127. OSCAR SUÁREZ 128. RAFAEL TARRAGO 129. TEODORO TELLEZ CISNEROS 130. FRANCISCO TELLEZ

    131. JOSÉ TIN 132. FRANCISCO TRAVIESO 133. LEONARDO TRUJILLO 134. TRUJILLO 135. LUPE VALDÉS BARBOSA

    136. MARCELINO VALDÉS 137. ANTONIO VALENTÍN 138. MANUEL VÁZQUEZ 139. SERGIO VÁZQUEZ 140. VERDECIA

    141. DÁMASO ZAYAS

    *15 additional executions were reported by The New York Times (on 2/6/59, 2/8/59, 3/16/59, and 4/2/59),

    but names are unknown.

  • Yo, jimBOB:

    Name one thing that wasn’t true about that comment.
    My only point is that idiot communists and socialists love the guy.
    It just scares me.

  • “One wonders, is the GOP attack machine just getting warmed up, or is this the best they can do?” — doubtful

    I believe their MO is to keep throwing sh*t figuring that eventually something will stick. And if not, the sheer volume of crap being thrown and the number of people throwing will suggest that at least some of the accusations must be true.

    (Reminds me of a soccer game in which our daughter defended 11 consecutive shots on goal. A dad from the other team, yelled, “C’mon, ref! One of those has to be good!” And so, the 12th block was called a score.)

  • Boy, the wingnuts really misses the commies, don’t they?

    Retake Panama? Yeah, good luck with that. Panamanians were willing to put up with an invasion to get rid of Pineapple Face, but I very much doubt any attempt by the US to retake the canal and US bases would be accepted.

    They’re quite passionate about their sovereignty, I found out from personal experience.

    And I also doubt very much that they would let the Chinese establish military bases.

  • Stacy:

    Take off the Che shirt, the Stalin shirt, the Mao shirt and realize that these were the bad guys.

    I live in Boulder and cannot believe it… I see it almost every day on Pearl Street. I saw a hippie lookin’ dude last week wearing a Stalin shirt. Really! Sheesh! If Stalin was alive, he would’ve been the 1st against the wall to be shot. Idiots. How may people did Stalin kill? Millions!

  • The chinese missles thing is a reference to a chinese company owned by the people liberation army that operate in the canal zone. It was discussed on 60 minutes few years ago. Course to go from that to missles is a hyperbolic leap. The chinese company is there for money not war.

  • While we’re on the topic of the Texas Republican platform, also take note that they want to legalize the murder the gays and lesbians. The platform states:

    We oppose any civil or criminal penalties against those who oppose homosexuality out of faith, conviction, or belief in traditional values.

    I’m not a lawyer, but I’m positive murder falls under “…criminal penalties…” and they oppose criminal prosecution. Here’s a copy of the platform. These words are on page 14 under “Homosexuality.”

  • Too late for the nipping, it’s already “out there.”

    That’s the political pr mantra: Get It OUT There. We can retract or apologize all we need to later.

    I am really sorry the Dims haven’t internalized this tactic, because it is the only one that works in this viral environment.

    Let’s start spreading the word that McStain accused the US of war-crimes. We can say, later, yeah, sure, he was a POW at the time…but do you want a president who would break under torture and condemn his country?

    I know it’s vile. I know it’s low.

    Start now, and it’ll be gospel by Nov…

  • Jason:

    Put down the Kool-Aid. Texans aren’t going to start murdering gays. LOL!

    Now, Iran….. they do it now. But let’s not worry about that. Let’s worry about Texas. Why not look at the countries who DO THAT NOW?
    “There are no homosexuals in Iran”…. casuse they were killed.

    And here you are, a moonbat thinking that Texas is secretly planning laws so they can kill gays.

    Jesus, dude…

  • Well, they can have my “I Heart Nikita Khrushchev” t-shirt when they pry it off my cold dead body.

  • Hanging a Che flag on the wall may have one of those Occam’s Razor explanations: “Hey, there’s a hole in the wall over here. Anybody have anything we can cover it up with?” There may have been no Jerry Garcia posters around at that moment.

    But if I lived in a state where the Republican party platform was such a conspiracy buff’s wet dream, I might be feeling a bit revolutionary myself.

  • Dude… it’s “Oppose” the acts of homosexuality.

    In other words, they are protecting speech.
    In some European countries, you can get thrown in jail for denying the Holocaust. Yeah, it happened, but I don’t want people thrown in jail for saying it didn’t.
    That’s what the law is about…. not arresting people because they say in a church that homosexual acts are wrong, or bad, or whatever.

    It’s not about murder. That’s the funniest thing I’ve heard all day. Thanks. I HAVE to email that to some friends. WOW.

  • 14 executed by Che in the Sierra Maestra during the anti-Batista guerrilla struggle (1957-1958):

    hey, cully? got any lists of the partisans eliminated by the Bautistas? Din’t think so…

  • Yeah, we all have Che flags to cover holes in the wall. LOL! I’ve got a few Mao, a couple of Nazi ones too. Oh, no…. I don’t like them, just happen to have a few around in case I need to plug a hole…

    LOL! I gotta email that comment around too.!! That’s GOLDEN!

  • Wow, i didn’t realize the Communist China were the bad guys…aren’t they the folks who lend us a billion dollars a day or so to keep the polish on our capitalist, city on the hill? You’d think that we wouldn’t go begging to the bad guys, but then you’d be thinking and that’s dangerous. We should criminalize not only T-shirts but also hippies.

    Man, i wish ole Joe McCarthy was still around; there was a guy who knew how to keep his eyes on the prize. We should have listened to him, Ike was a Commie lovin, pinko traitor.

    But its all true, if we don’t defend our great nation against people in Che T-shirts, who knows how many dominoes will fall on top of us. We’re encircled, people, our way of life is in grave danger from the rising tide of Communism and its dope-smoking, popular revolutionary insurgents.

    I have a list here of hundreds of people who vote Democratic; they are card carrying members of the Communist Party who will give our secrets to the Soviet Union…what d’ya mean there’s no Soviet Union? But, but…

    We should definitely resurrect Curtis LeMay to fire bomb Pearl St in Boulder. We can’t let the Communists win, but to do that we’ll have to borrow money from the communists in China. God Bless America.

  • “Take off the Che shirt, the Stalin shirt, the Mao shirt and realize that these were the bad guys.”

    Nice one, Ster. I asked a civilly worded question and you respond with a couple of attacks? Go take your ritalin.

  • Ster, what makes us shake our heads is the desperate stupidity of the charges.

    Obama failed to wear a flag pin, so he’s a traitor. (I’m not wearing one right now either, so I must be a traitor too. Ster, can you upload a picture of the flag pin you’re wearing now so we can know you’re an OK ‘murikin?) Obama was once photographed not holding his hand over his heart so he “refuses to salute.” A random Obama volunteer had a Che poster so Obama is a communist.

    You righties are just teh awesome.

  • Ster said:
    I love it…. can’t see comments without a Tax Cuts for the Wealthy comment.

    Did you know that the Bush (wealthy) tax cuts have produced the following:
    1) about 10 million of the poorest who paid taxes under Clinton, do not pay now?
    2) the richest 20% now pay a LARGER share of all of the taxes collected than they did under Clinton?
    3) Brining in more money.

    Sigh.

    Okay, Ster, you’ve thrown out some statistics. Now can you put them into context?

    — How much were each of the 10 million poorest paying in taxes under Clinton — either an average or a median number will be fine.

    — Assuming those 10 million still have jobs, how much were they paying in total federal taxes under Clinton — don’t forget Social Security taxes — and how does that compare to what they’re paying now? Please provide actual amounts and percentages of income — and don’t forget to adjust for inflation.

    — How does the amount of weath owned by the richest 20 percent during the Clinton years compare with what they owned during the Bush years? As an example (using numbers I’m pulling out of the air), if the richest 20 percent owned 50 percent of all weath in the U.S., but paid only 40 percent of the taxes collected in 1996, they weren’t being taxed enough. And if in 2006 they owned 60 percent of all weath but only paid 45 percent of the taxes, they were paying paying even less of their fair share under Bush.

    I found one source (without citations, unfortunately) that says that the richest 5 percent owned 59 percent of total wealth in 1998. So the numbers I offered in my example seem to drastically understate the inequity of wealth in the U.S.

    — Please clarify what you mean in: “3) Brinin in more money” and place it in context. Again, don’t forget to adjust for inflation.

    Oh, and don’t forget to offer citations for the numbers you are providing.

  • Ster, be fair. I never said Texas would start murdering gay people. That wouldn’t happen. Don’t make things up. You are the one who jumped off the deep end on this one.

  • I am outraged.

    I’m voting for McCain!!!! — neil wilson

    You’re a conservative hack whose preferred candidate was Romney. I guess you have no choice but to go for McCain now.

    Your concern-trolling is annoying, I wonder if anything can be done about it.

  • Stacey:

    Sorry about the incivility. I think I thought you were being…. well, there I go assuming again. My apologies.
    The whole Che T-Shirt stuff with the idiot college kids thinking he was some kind of hero (yeah, so was Stalin), irks me. I think “useful idiots” was the term. Was that Stalin’s term for Westerners that defended the communist regime? I think it was Stalin.

  • I knew a guy in high school who used to ride around the neighborhood on his go-kart, flying around corners and racing down the street, all while not wearing a helmet.

    One day, he wiped out, banging his head on the concrete. He went from a normal high school sophmore to someone with the mental capacity of a four year old. He’d drool, piss and crap on himself, blurt out incoherent sayings at random, and fail to grasp even the most simple concepts of logic and reasoning.

    After I went off to college, I lost track of the guy, but often wondered what happened to him.

    Well, I see now that he’s become a Republican, and has moved from yelling out random stupidity to posting it on the Internet.

    Poor guy. I thought modern medicine would have found a cure by now. Guess not.

  • OK… here WE go.
    here are your answers:

    —-Okay, Ster, you’ve thrown out some statistics. Now can you put them into context?

    – How much were each of the 10 million poorest paying in taxes under Clinton — either an average or a median number will be fine.
    >>>Don’t know. 10 million were taken off the rolls when the 15% income tax rate was dropped to 10% and moved higher. I guess there are numbers somewhere. But, in other words, the lower 10% rate doesn’t kick in for 10 million people after the cuts –if their income did not move or change–.

    – Assuming those 10 million still have jobs, how much were they paying in total federal taxes under Clinton — don’t forget Social Security taxes — and how does that compare to what they’re paying now? Please provide actual amounts and percentages of income — and don’t forget to adjust for inflation.
    >>>Here’s a tip…. If they no longer pay Federal Taxes, they pay less now, everything else being the same. The 10 million were taken off of the rolls BECAUSE of the cut, not because they lost their jobs or anything. The IRS.GOV site has the numbers — somewhere. It compared the previous year.

    – How does the amount of weath owned by the richest 20 percent during the Clinton years compare with what they owned during the Bush years? As an example (using numbers I’m pulling out of the air), if the richest 20 percent owned 50 percent of all weath in the U.S., but paid only 40 percent of the taxes collected in 1996, they weren’t being taxed enough. And if in 2006 they owned 60 percent of all weath but only paid 45 percent of the taxes, they were paying paying even less of their fair share under Bush.
    >>>Remember this… the IRS taxes INCOME. They do not tax wealth (until you die). According the the NYTimes, the richest 20% pay 80% of all income taxes It’s actually something like 78.5%.

    Also, one of the reasons the rich get richer is this…. they invest in TAX-FREE investments. Such as municipal bonds, etc… This does benefit us in one way, when your town wants to build a highway, tax-free bonds are a cheaper way for the town because they pay a lower interest rate. So, it helps keep your taxes lower… the trade off, if keeps the rich folks’ taxes lower too.

    I do not have figures for who owns what % of wealth, but we do not tax wealth, just income.

    So, let’s say you have $100 million. You get taxfree interest of $5 million per year on that. You only spend $2 million of that (i could live on that!). The next year you have $103 million and paid no tax — you had no taxable income. Your wealth grew.

    —I found one source (without citations, unfortunately) that says that the richest 5 percent owned 59 percent of total wealth in 1998. So the numbers I offered in my example seem to drastically understate the inequity of wealth in the U.S.
    >>>We do not tax wealth… only income. With all of the immigrants coming in, of COURSE the disparity will wide. You make more money every year if you get a raise, right? The poor immigrant who comes in now makes less than the last guy compared to you. So, YOUR income now creates some of that disparity. The poor will always be broke when they start. When they get better off, there are new immigrants to take their place and keep the “floor” down there. The disparity will always widen as long as there are poor people coming into the country. That’s just a fact.

    —By bringin in more money?…. I mean the Treasury is bringing in record $s.
    Just like the tax cuts before — in many (not all) cases, a cut can bring in more money. Why? Simple. If you lower the tax on something, you get more of it. When the Capital Gains rate was cut, the treasury brought in MORE money from it. It can go both ways. Here’s an example.
    Beer taxes. Let’s say that the current tax on a single bottle is $0.25.
    Let’s raise that tax to $25.00 per bottle, making a six-pack of Bud cost over $150.00.
    That’s a 100 times increase in taxes. Would the tax man take in 100 times more that next collection period? Heck no… people will switch to wine, whatever.

    Now let’s say the tax is now $25.00 per bottle and it brings in $1 million per year for your city. If we CUT that rate to $0.25, will your city now take in only 1/100th of that (—$10,000)?? Heck no…. you’d bring in millions more!

    If done RIGHT, that’s what cuts can do. (Yes, Repugs usually want to cut too much or irresponsibly and Demos raise too much or too irresponsibly.)

    If you double a tax, you DO NOT get double the income.
    If you cut a tax in half, you will get MORE than HALF the income.
    —It’s a balancing game.

    I work in finance. The capital gains tax cut did wonders… more people traded, more taxes came in.

    Here are the Federal Tax Receipts:
    1999: $1.827 (Trillion) (Trillion)
    2007: $2.568 (Trillion)
    Averaged annualized gain in Treasury Receipts: 4.348%
    Average inflation rate: 2.68% (2000-2007)
    (Could not find the inflation rate for 1999, but ti was pretty low too.)

    That’s what I could quickly find. :0)

  • “…would it also behoove McCain to renounce the Texas GOP’s lunacy?”

    An embarrassingly amatuer attempt at a sarcastic jab that could only be made by an uneducated half-wit with little to no knowledge or sensitivity towards who Che Guevara really was, what he stood for, or what he did.

  • So,how soon do these patriots plan a national campaign denouncing the display of the flag of Confederate treason????

    (sound of birds chirping)

    Thought not.

  • Pushing for McCain to renounce the Texas platform is really good. It is the kind of thing where the left could go on offense something it is not very good at doing. Too bad the left has no infrastructure to promote it.

    Let’s just take a moment to nip this in the bud, shall we?

    I appreciate your efforts …but…do you really think you are nipping anything to anyone other than to the converted? Seriously. Great for you to lay out the facts but do you think you reach anyone on the right? Even if one of them retracts what they posted which won’t happen, the cult has already absorbed its training, its conditioning, it is done. It is part of their collective being and will remain so.

    I am always amazed how liberals think that if Olberman or some big blogger shoots down deception number 35,376,387,398,747,646 from the right that somehow it does any good or strikes any kind of a nerve with the cult of conservatism.

    The right is an insulated movement. A cult like movement, controlled. They march on q after years of conditioning. You know that. Why do any liberal bloggers make like what you are doing helps “cure” or “nip” the error. Often seems like the only time the left gets traction is when they are shooting themselves in the foot doing things like demanding Schuster – the ONLY honest reporter who gets on TV – be fired when they know it is Matthews who is the main culprit and Schuster is the fall guy.

    This flag story will fly around with the rest of the lies until November and beyond. You know that. Nothing is going to stop it because the right CONTROLS their cult. Rush and all know this but like a cult they all think deception is a good thing when they are the patriotic ones, when THEY are on G-d’s side. This is how cults think. Former Moonies call it “Heavenly deception.” I am not saying this to be provocative; it is the truth if you look.

    I know it is icky to say but today’s Moon molded right is literally under a form of information control – a mind control technique – they only absorb info from accepted sources. ALL other sources are suspect even if they are exposed to them which in the overwhelming number of cases they won’t be. Rightwingers will brag they read the WP or NYT and therefore they get their fill of both sides. No they don’t. They have been conditioned not believe any word against the cult, any words, no matter how well documented.
    Like this debunking, do you really think any of those rightwing bloggers will correct the misperception? Hah

    If they do, do you think the damage hasn’t been done? What’s even funnier is that I bet Barak thinks he can fight this with the truth. Haha

    When are liberals going to FULLY admit that the core right is not reachable? They are under a form of mind control predominantly implemented through information and language control.

    This is and HAS BEEN a huge national security issue but it is too icky for the country to face so we are going down, period. A nation can’t live constantly fighting with half its citizens who live in an alternate, false reality.

    What is happening to our country is not normal.

    Cheers. 🙂

  • That Texas platform is pretty freaking out there.

    I do like the Social Sec. thing though (no, not abolish it…)

    Did you know that a majority of black men never collect a dime from SS? Not a cent. That’s insane.

    You want to help eliminate poverty? Do something like bushie tried. Have a small percentage go into a seperate portion of the account (like an IRA, only safer investments).

    Why?
    1) The government can’t spend it like it does with SS $ now.
    2) When the person dies, it goes into his wife/kids’ account.

    It gets passed on.
    When more than half of all black men pay into the system and die… and get nothing. Can you imagine the wealth that would be created by passing those thousands into their kids’ accounts? It would be amazing.

    Plus, Congress can change SS benefits at any time. The money in the ‘individual’ portion cannot be touched. It’s owned by the person, not the govt.

  • “The right is an insulated movement. A cult like movement, controlled.”

    And the left isn’t as well? LOL!
    Just ask Lieberman. He didn’t tow the line and was kicked out.
    McCain won’t tow the right’s line and he’s the nominee.
    So… who’s controlled and not?

    They BOTH are controlled.
    When everybody figures that out, we’ll get back on track.

  • Both the extreme right and left are crazies. Pulling up examples of the texas platform (of far-right idiots) does nothing. It’s no better than me saying that Hillary wants us to be a Socialist country.

    This time, I think it’s the left that’s extreme. The right nominates a moderate guy.
    The left might (Obama) nominate the most liberal guy in the senate.

    Here’s a fun fact that someone emailed to me (and I checked it).
    Obama is the 1st Democratic African-American Senator. (I didn’t know that).

    Who was the first Repug African-American Senator? Hiram… in 1870.
    Yep… 1870!!! Took the Demos long enough.

  • mb:

    Get your head outta your ass.

    I am a “Right-Winger” and I am here, reading YOUR comment.
    Your hate and blinders show through, bud.

  • Not to take this thread totally off topic, but since some are quoting economic stuff:

    “Virtually every economics Ph.D. who has worked in a prominent role in the Bush Administration acknowledges that the tax cuts enacted during the past six years have not paid for themselves–and were never intended to.” Source

    Some other info:

    Real GDP Growth:

    Clinton: 4.09% more than prior 8 years
    Bush: 2.65% more than prior 7 Years

    Jobs created:

    Clinton: 1.76 Million/year more than previous 8 Years
    Bush: 369,000/year more than previous 7 Years

    Americans living in poverty:

    Clinton: 31.6 Million
    Bush: 36.5

    Median household income (adjusted for inflation):

    Clinton: $49,163 ($6,000 increase)
    Bush: $48,023 ($1,100 decrease)

    I could keep going, but the facts speak for themselves.

  • This sort of thing–along with his kookie, Farrakhan-loving, afrofantastic church (odd choice for spiritual fulfillment for such a meticulously post-racial candidate)–is exactly what you can expect. It also doesn’t help obama that he’s got absolutely nothing other than race and charisma to run on. Oh, I forgot about hope and change. LOL!

  • #47 MB

    Well said. It is hard to reach any other conclusion and it is scary as hell. Way scarier than the terrorists. Moyers was talking about the ‘authoritarian mindset’ this week and how something like 25% of Americans have it. They are the kind of people who build camps.

  • “When more than half of all black men pay into the system and die… and get nothing. Can you imagine the wealth that would be created by passing those thousands into their kids’ accounts? It would be amazing.”

    Or improve the health of black men so that they live as long as white men.

    That might help, too.

  • Ster:

    It seems scary that you are in finance.

    First of all I agree that if you double the tax you get less than double the revenue. If you cut the rate in half you will get more than half the revenue.

    So far so good???

    “According the the NYTimes, the richest 20% pay 80% of all income taxes It’s actually something like 78.5%.”

    So what!!!! I pay a lot of other taxes besides income tax. I pay FICA tax on the first $100,000 of earned income. I pay Medicare on virtually all of my earned income. I pay property taxes. I pay sales taxes.

    When all is said and done, people like Warren Buffet and the hedge fund guy you earned $3 billion last year pay a lower percentage of their income in taxes than I do.

    Do you know ANYONE who said that they are working harder because the Bush tax cuts gave them a bigger incentive to work???

    Rush Limbaugh doesn’t work any harder. Warren Buffet doesnt’ work any harder. I don’t work any harder.

    “So, let’s say you have $100 million. You get taxfree interest of $5 million per year on that. You only spend $2 million of that (i could live on that!). The next year you have $103 million and paid no tax — you had no taxable income. Your wealth grew.”

    Have you ever heard of inflation? I suppose it is possible to keep ahead of inflation if you only spend 2% of your net worth. How many people living off of investments do you know who onlly spend 2% of their net worth?

    Can you name a single serious economist who claims that the Bush tax cuts didn’t reduce the overall revenue of the US government? I am not saying that taxes should be higher or lower. i am just saying that the tax cuts cost the US government revenue.

  • Ster #50

    “Here’s a fun fact that someone emailed to me (and I checked it).
    Obama is the 1st Democratic African-American Senator. (I didn’t know that).”

    it might be fun but it isn’t a fact.

    Obama isn’t even the first black democrat for Illinois.

  • Ster said:
    OK… here WE go.
    here are your answers:

    (SteveT)– How much were each of the 10 million poorest paying in taxes under Clinton — either an average or a median number will be fine.
    >>>Don’t know. 10 million were taken off the rolls when the 15% income tax rate was dropped to 10% and moved higher. I guess there are numbers somewhere. But, in other words, the lower 10% rate doesn’t kick in for 10 million people after the cuts –if their income did not move or change–.

    What the question was intended to point out was that adjusting the tax rates so these people didn’t pay income taxes saved them about $200.00 per year. That’s nice, but even when I was working a minimum wage job (back when the minimum wage was around $3.25 per hour) decreasing the amount withheld on each paycheck by $9.00 wouldn’t have made much difference.

    (SteveT)– Assuming those 10 million still have jobs, how much were they paying in total federal taxes under Clinton?
    >>>Here’s a tip…. If they no longer pay Federal Taxes, they pay less now, everything else being the same.

    These people are no longer paying income taxes, but they are still paying Social Security taxes. Back when I was working a minimum wage job the amount withheld in SSI payments was larger than the amount withheld in federal income taxes. So the 10 million people you are talking about actually had federal taxes on their paychecks cut by about 40 percent. Again, this is nice not as nice as you suggested.

    The point of this question was that because the social security tax is only paid on the first $102,000 of income, the richer you are, the less this tax matters. A better, and fairer way to cut taxes would have been to decrease the social security withholding.

    (SteveT)– How does the amount of weath owned by the richest 20 percent during the Clinton years compare with what they owned during the Bush years?
    >>>Remember this… the IRS taxes INCOME. They do not tax wealth (until you die). According the the NYTimes, the richest 20% pay 80% of all income taxes It’s actually something like 78.5%.

    The point of this question is to show that the result of supply-side economics (and, I believe, the ultimate goal of it’s proponents) is to create a class-based system of taxation. Income taxes, which is the priciple tax paid by poor and middle class people, will be taxed as a much higher portion of total income. Capital gains taxes and inheritance taxes, which are the prinicple taxes paid by the very rich, will be taxed as a much lower portion of total income — if those taxes aren’t eliminated completely.

    >>>We do not tax wealth… only income. With all of the immigrants coming in, of COURSE the disparity will wide. You make more money every year if you get a raise, right? The poor immigrant who comes in now makes less than the last guy compared to you. So, YOUR income now creates some of that disparity. The poor will always be broke when they start. When they get better off, there are new immigrants to take their place and keep the “floor” down there. The disparity will always widen as long as there are poor people coming into the country. That’s just a fact.

    Except increases in the income of people like me don’t make much difference in economic disperity. Median income has stagnated (http://www.cbpp.org/8-26-04pov.htm). Supply siders like to cite averages to show that ‘a rising tide is lifting all boats.’ But most of the increases in income are happening in the upper 20 percent. As an analogy, if you put Bill Gates in a room with 99 homeless men, then on average you have 100 multi-millionaires. But the median income doesn’t change.

    Here are the Federal Tax Receipts:
    1999: $1.827 (Trillion) (Trillion)
    2007: $2.568 (Trillion)
    Averaged annualized gain in Treasury Receipts: 4.348%
    Average inflation rate: 2.68% (2000-2007)
    (Could not find the inflation rate for 1999, but ti was pretty low too.)

    Again, you’re citing statistics and not putting them into context. That’s like a doctor looking at the cooling body of his dead patient and saying, “Look, I’m bringing his fever down!”

    Or a better analogy would be to use my business. In 2006 my office supply expenses were about $6000.00. In 2007 they were around $7000.00. Was that 17 percent increase good or bad? It depends on many things. Did the number of customers I served increase by more than 17 percent? How much of that incease was due to price increases? Was a new kind of product, like printer cartridges, added to the office supply category? And so on.

    You cite an increase in federal tax revenue. How much of that is a )income tax, b) corporate taxes c) SSI, d) government fees, e) tarrifs. I seem to recall that our trade deficit is high — which would raise income from tariffs but which wouldn’t be a good thing for the manufacturing sector of our economy.

    How does the increase in federal tax revenue compare with the increase in the GDP? In the Federal buget?

  • I’m so glad the Rightists are putting up a wall to protect us from all those dead Communists.

    It helps me feel safe in a world where Cheney’s packing birdshot, Bush is packing 9,000 nukes and the telecoms are tapping my every word.

    There’s been many an extraordinarily dangerous Communist leader: Lenin, Stalin, Krushchev, Brezhnev, Andropov, Mao, Chi Minh, Castro and more. Out of them all, the rightists killed Guevara, plus a whole lot of populists who never actually joined the Communists. And they’re guarding ther graves to prevent them from coming back to life, ready to stab the zombies with their flag pins.

    My heroes, you saved me again!

    And…. it helps distract everyone from another Republican vote-counting scandal in Washington state. Old John McCain sure has learned well from his mentor.

    Next comes the whispering campaign : “Pssst, hey didja hear that both of Obama’s children may be Black?”

  • It should also be pointed out to those idiots in Houston that the guy on the flag was not particularly a friend of their country nor the president whose legacy Obama is most assiduously co-opting through the use of endorsements by his children and his drunken, lecherous, manslaughtering brother Teddy.

  • Ster@50: You didn’t check very closely; Carol Moseley Braun held the same seat Obama does from 1993 to 1999.

  • “I’m so glad the Rightists are putting up a wall to protect us from all those dead Communists.”

    They’re not dead. They just changed their name.
    Tell me Putin isn’t a communist deep-down.
    A new cold-war with them will come soon.
    It’s already starting.

    They’re already gaining control of oil/gas pipelines to Europe.

    The scary thing is… yeah, we won the cold war last time.
    We’re in position to lose this time.

    Back then, they had “free” healthcare, education, equality in income, etc….
    Look who’s going that way now. We are.

  • >>>Here’s a tip…. If they no longer pay Federal Taxes, they pay less now, everything else being the same.

    These people are no longer paying income taxes, but they are still paying Social Security taxes. Back when I was working a minimum wage job the amount withheld in SSI payments was larger than the amount withheld in federal income taxes. So the 10 million people you are talking about actually had federal taxes on their paychecks cut by about 40 percent. Again, this is nice not as nice as you suggested.

    JESUS STEVE!!!! “It was not as nice..” Aww, I’m sorry your Xmas present was the wrong color. WTF?

    Social Security isn’t technically a TAX. It is insurance. Forced insurance, yes (which is a tax in my book). EVERYBODY pays into SS. Period. I am talking about income taxes. Sheesh.

    “Gee Steve, we gave you a 25% raise today!”
    Steve: “Oh no, that sucks, that means I have to pay more payroll tax. I don’t want it.”

    Either way, their INCOME tax is ZERO!! More money in their pocket. I am sorry that’s not ‘good enough’ for you, but that’s all you can cut taxes… to zero.

  • I’d like to know how many democrats support the Federal Reserve? Do you believe this private bank to be constitutional? And the IRS as well? I can find agreement with the Texas republican Party on these issues, and suggest that everyone reading this look into the history of both before labeling these as wacky, far-out ideas.

  • SteveT: “What the question was intended to point out was that adjusting the tax rates so these people didn’t pay income taxes saved them about $200.00 per year. That’s nice, but even when I was working a minimum wage job (back when the minimum wage was around $3.25 per hour) decreasing the amount withheld on each paycheck by $9.00 wouldn’t have made much difference.”

    Gee… I am sorry it’s not enough. But we can’t cut your taxes to below zero.
    The point is, taxes were lowered on the bottom incomes too.

    Geez. Under Clinton, 10 million poor folks had to pay income taxes. Now they don’t and you’re arguing against it?

    Whatever… I know you hate Bush, but this isn’t about him.
    If he raised the taxes on the lower income back to where they were, you’d probably be yelling and screaming that he wants them all to startve.

  • Sorry Steve, but I can’t go over everything. Go to the Treasury site and see.

    “The point of this question was that because the social security tax is only paid on the first $102,000 of income, the richer you are, the less this tax matters. A better, and fairer way to cut taxes would have been to decrease the social security withholding.”

    The reason it stops at 102K (or whatever) is because this is INSURANCE. You only get back what you paid for originally. There is a LIMIT to the amount you can get, so they stop at 102K.

    Lowering the overall rate would not bring in enough money.

    The question about making the rich pay more is this: If they pay more, they get nothing more in return.
    The way SS was set up, it is basically an insurance plan. You BUY a certain coverage. Increasing what the rich pay may be fine, but then it’s another tax, and no longer insurance.

    Just like anything. The richer you are…. the less $3 gas matters. and on and on. Has nothing to do with it.

  • Sorry about forgetting about Carol. Sheesh. Maybe it said “First African-American MALE” in the Senate as a Democrat. Don’t remember.

    Still impressive that the GOP had an African American there in 1870. Dam.

    Then again, it was the Democrats that still have a former KKK member in Congress, the Demos attempted to block the 1964 Civil Rights act, etc… etc… etc….

    So, be careful when throwing stones.

    Even Cindy Sheehan said that she was done with the Dem party and mentioned it was the “slavery party”.

    There are kooks on the right…. but there are just as many on the left. We we ALL realize that, we can talk.

  • JESUS STEVET!!!!

    Don’t you know that those who got an extra $18 a month from Bush’s tax break should bow down before his benevolence?!

    Sure, those people don’t have health care … their wages haven’t kept up with inflation … education costs have risen … funds to help them in times of need have been cut … the gap between rich and poor has risen faster than any time in history … and their increased energy costs are blowing their budget apart …

    But they got a reduction in their taxes!! How dare they bitch and moan!!

    Damn ungrateful, greedy bastards …

  • “Social Security isn’t technically a TAX. It is insurance. Forced insurance, yes (which is a tax in my book). EVERYBODY pays into SS. Period. I am talking about income taxes. Sheesh.”

    I love your definition. Social Security TAX isn’t a tax. Well, I earn income at my job and the government ‘taxes’ me on my income. But, hey, if it ain’t a tax then who am I to argue.

    Your next line even mentions “payroll TAX”. But, if it ain’t a duck then it doesn’t really matter how it walks or talks.

    “The reason it stops at 102K (or whatever) is because this is INSURANCE. You only get back what you paid for originally. There is a LIMIT to the amount you can get, so they stop at 102K.”

    Whatever social security is, it isn’t insurance. It is a transfer payment from the young to the old and from the rich to the poor.

    If you made $30,000 a year and I made $60,000 a year for our entire careers then you would expect my retirement benefit to be twice as high. It isn’t twice as high.

    Social Security is a TAX and social security payments are no different than welfare payments. The people, through their elected government, decided that poor people should get money called ‘welfare’ and old people should get money called ‘social security.

  • mb,
    Do you find it a little ironic that you accuse republicans of following a cult when these volunteers are obviously the ones so uneducated that they put up a flag of south america’s most notorious communist, somehow inspired by their near orgasmic love for Obama?

  • Ster:

    Don’t forget that the Republicans from the post Civil War are people who are Democrats today.

    After the Compromise of 1876, there were few, if any, blacks elected in the south.

    LBJ basically gave the south to the Republicans because he believed in civil rights.

    There were a lot of racist Democrats. They were wrong then. There are a lot of racist Democrats and Republicans now. They are wrong now.

  • 55 Michael, yes there is no other conclusion. No doubt liberals are not perfect but they don’t claim to be just as they don’t claim to have better “family values” than other Americans while they hunt pages in the capitol and sex at the airport.

    Conservatism is exposed as a bankrupt ideology daily. Only the trained ignore it.

    How many emails do you have your in box the last couple months that were all out lies which came to you after being forwarded thousands and thousands of times to the conditioned conservatives? Hillary pee on some Gold Star mothers today? Barak spit on the bible as he demanded a Koran to take his oath? You mihgt expect one or two of those but this is not normal. Why when I get mail from a liberals it is an article with a link not some race baiting mind conditioning lies?

    Sure no one knows who started them but why are they so easily swollwed? I mean easily swallowed and promoted and passed on? Why? It is plain to those not in the cult.

    Today’s conservatives have little to no sense of proportion, another cult trait. They are conditioned, Ken Lay gave a billion to the right, best buds with Bush but he gave$1.98 to dems so “We’re even!!” Trained. Bush deceives the country into his plan free bluinder – Bill Clinton lied about his BJ, WE’RE even. None of these things is that important by themselves but when you add it up it equals a false reality and conservative leaders know damn well they have to have it to win.

    Any conservative who will tell you Rush and Savage tell their followers the whole truth is in denial. The left has nothing to compare to the mind numbing propaganda the right has been fed the last 25 years. Nothing. David Koresh didn’t condition his cult as much as Rush has his. The hypocrites claim they didn’t like the media because it was “biased” and so they go to FOX and Rush like trainded dogs every day to get their next dose of deceit, propaganda. They swallow every turd. In truth, if it fits the conditioned narrative they will jump for it like trained seals that is why this falf thing is so easy for them to push, thier folowers eat any turd floating by. They don’t care if they are intentionally lied to.

    Anyone who thinks the left has anything to compare to religious right radio, another mian false reality training base for the conservative mind is in denial. Religious right radio hasn’t dipped a toe in reality for years. It is frightening to anyone with a dribble of reality based thinking and certainly is not good for the country’s future.

    I am not saying thet left does not do some of things it should not but sooner or later you have to not only use a sense of proportion but also decide who came first the chicken or the egg. I would argue the left’s overreaching, what there is of it, is a reaction to the deceptions on the right.

    Lakoff is using their tactics but he is also trying to reclaim the language, the meaning of things before the right deployed language control. Even Bush does the little cutsey, “Democrat” party.

    My favorites are the ones who call you a hater, a Bush hater, etc. Sure sign of the controlled just as those little “W” on cars show the way to the controlled mind. The conservtiave movement is taking the nation and the world to hell but if you speak that truth bluntly you are a “hater.”

    You ever debate a moonie? That is their defense of choice and when used it is just more mind control. You can overly document what a liar and fraud Moon is but the conditioned followers will tell you that “you just hate Father so I don’t have ot listen to you.” Conservatives believe they alone are G-d’s tools and so any disagreement with the agenda is naturally evil. Some here may not think that but the base of the right does.

    Steve Hassan the former Moon follower now cult therapist said early in the Bush administration that they were creating a cult mindset with the “we vs. them” frame. It took years to set it up but that is where we are. Cults have to make the followers feel like they are being persecuted and G-d is pulling for them or they can’t pull of the con. This what cults do.

    But I know, I know, Bill Clinton lied about getting his wing wang doodled so we’re all even.

    Here is the little test no conservtiave will honestly take… picture it was Clinton who lied you into a war, took a daily dump on the constitution,turned the Justice Department into a Democratic Party appendage and plainly performed as if he were above the law, on and on…what you have said the last 7 years?

    You know what you would have done, you would’ve been against everything he did. You would scream “impeach” everyday. You won’t fully admit this. That’s because conservatives of today are conditioned to think that intellectual dishonesty is a good thing when you are personally doing the work of the Lord. Fact is had Clinton done what Bush has done, tliberals would have stood with them as real conservatives stood against Nixon.

    One last thing, I do ‘hate’ to say these things about conservatism but note I am talking about today’s conservatism, the Moon molded conservatism which embraces the “kooks” and those they should be kicking “in the ass.”

  • mb–
    You brought up a point I was going to as well — can anyone show us a Democratic Party site that matches the crazy of the Texas GOP?

    I’m not talking about a leftwing group with no ties to the party, nor some random blogger, nor some article from someone who maybe once was registered as a Democrat.

    I’m talking about a verifiable, truly, honest-to-goodness Democratic Party site that has policy positions matching the whacked out ideas CB linked to in the post.

    Anyone … ?

  • I *wish* the Republican party would focus on a few of those ideas rather than the silly things they spend their time on currently. 🙂

  • 73 “uneducated”

    Education of the kind I think you refer to has nothing to do with cults. Very smart people get caught up in cults. I am not saying conservatives are insane (unlike the constant refrain form the right about liberals) or stupid or “uneducated” – they are controlled.

    But you just tell yourself this flag deception has as much or more to do with reality than what I am saying. Talk radio and things like the dedicated propaganda mind training Moon Times which conservatives have suckled on for 25 years as it has pushed for Moon’s goal of a theocratic fascist America, or FOX or McCain bowing to Falwell or Bush dropping his drawers and shitting on the constitution – it is the same as the kid with a flag. You just keep straight what is important. You just use all your powers to keep a sense of proportion.

    Listened to Rush for 15 minutes today. Not a syllable of reality in a word he said for 15 minutes. Total deception, propaganda. 3 hours a day, seven days a week, 18 years. No wonder we have a problem. Koresh would have loved that kind of time to condition his cult.

    Hey, None of you right wingers have to worry about this, Regnery will whip out a book to train you on how the left is a cult and you will swallow it and move on like the condition folks you have become.

    Kind of like Malkin set up your “the liberals are ‘unhinged'” frame for you so you won’t have to face what you have done to the country and the world. Sort of like how Coulter told you that liberals would “slander” you about the time some liberals were waking up to what you have become and would “label” what you have become for what it is. You don’t need to even think. They’ll cover for you. Remember, like Jonah told you, liberals are fascists.

    Conservatism is rewriting reality and they have the infrastructre to do it with. They must change reality or they lose.

    Now, just tell yobadself Bush wasn’t a “true” conservative so you don’t have to deal with the horror this movement has foisted upon the world nor the shame it has brougth upon our once great nation.

    cheers!

  • One wonders, is the GOP attack machine just getting warmed up, or is this the best they can do?

    As I’ve mentioned before, the dreaded GOP attack machine is really quite pitiful. They attack EVERYTHING, and make so many stupid attacks that even the looniest of wingnuts can’t keep up with them all. The fact that we can all cite ONE important attack on Kerry is proof of this. Because they were slinging mud on him for MONTHS, EVERY SINGLE DAY. Every word he said and every picture he took was held up for ridicule. Yet we all know this one attack did it. And even then, it apparently only changed poll numbers by a few points (clearly enough) and really wasn’t a very good attack. They got one lucky punch on a weak campaigner and we all insist almost four years later that these guys are unstoppable. Don’t believe the hype.

    The real worries aren’t the smears, but the election theft, something they’ll have a harder time with this time, though they’ll try. Also troublesome were the repeated terror warnings used to boost Bush every time his numbers started tanking. And that’s not a likely occurance this time either. And when you combine that with the fact that we had an uninspiring politician against a sitting president with a rabid following, it becomes obvious that the attack machine is really quite impotent.

    Sure, it can’t be ignored, but it’s really not very effective. It usually only works with people who wanted to hear the smears to begin with, and those people don’t vote for us anyway. And had Kerry been as good on the campaign trail as either Hillary or Barack, we’d be discussing Kerry’s re-election right now.

  • 76,

    They’ll come up with something.

    Remember, this is a movement that believes Ward Churchill – someone I bet 99.9999% of politically active democrats had never heard of before the mind molders on the right had to make him the outrage de jour so the cult could feel validatated – in the conservative’s mind Churchill is every bit as influential to the left as say a Coulter and Savage are to the right. This is how they think.

    I think some liberals are happy to see Bush’s approvals tanking because they think it is a sign that the nation is awakening.

    Unfortunately, about 20% of his drop comes from people who think Bush is not enough of an extremist for them.

  • mb–
    Who the hell is Ward Churchill?

    Seriously … I’m pretty keen politically and read quite a few blogs, yet still have no idea who the hell the guy is.

    Is he as powerful as the one who apparently funds every single liberal cause and send checks to every registered Democrat — you know, that Soros guy?

    I ask because he’s apparently like Scaife, Moon, Murdock, Regenery Press, Liberty University, Fox News, the Wall Street Journal op-ed page, the NYT op-ed page, the National Review, and the RNC … all rolled into one, but on the left.

  • Every time I hear the old class warfare line that the rich “aren’t paying their fair share of taxes”, my blood pressure rises. Anyone who looks at the statistics put out by the CBO can’t see it any other way. Here’s a quote from the NY Times:

    “The top 1 percent of income earners paid about 36.7 percent of federal income taxes and 25.3 percent of all federal taxes in 2004. The top 20 percent of income earners paid 67.1 percent of all federal taxes, up from 66.1 percent in 2000, according to the budget office.

    By contrast, families in the bottom 40 percent of income earners, those with incomes below $36,300, typically paid NO FEDERAL INCOME TAX [emphasis added] and received money back from the government. That so-called negative income tax stemmed mainly from the earned-income tax credit, a program that benefits low-income parents who are employed. ”

    Yes, that’s right. The top 1% of the country – the group that produces more jobs than any other segment of our society – has the unmitigated gall to ONLY pay over 25% of all federal taxes! The scoundrels! When are we ever going to get to a system that kills all incentive to succeed by taxing these people at least another 25%? [sarcasm]. Never mind that these people already pay a higher proportion of income tax. Never mind that they pay the majority of all capital gains taxes. Somehow, they just are never taxed enough.

  • MarkD:

    Don’t know about a platform (words), how about some actions:

    But, who has a former KKK wizard in Congress?

    At the very least, when the Republicans found a racist in their midst, David Duke, they exposed him and rode him out on a rail.

    Robert Byrd? Re-elected again.
    ———————————
    Both parties SUCK. When people realize that, we will finally improve this country.

    Can’t you see that many people here ARE the problem? Why? They picked a side and fight the other side no matter what.

    “That sounds like a good idea…. Oh, that’s Bush’s idea? That must suck. I’m gonna fight it!” (Yes, before you throw flames, it goes the same way on the other side.)

    That sort of junk.

    As long as we sit around fighting on teams, the bosses of the parties are laughing… all the way to the bank. As long as we are DIVIDED, we feel we NEED these parties for OUR side.

    Yep… are you a registered Democrat or Republican?
    YOU are part of the problem then.

    Have you ever voted a straight party ticket?
    YOU are part of the problem then.

    You think the Repubs (or the Demos) are the enemy…. LOL!!!! It’s the parties themselves!!!! They have you…. you send them money, they lie, distort and propagandize to make you think the other party is the enemy of a perfect utopia they will give you.

    HAHA! If you belong to a party — YOU are the sheep. Not the Republicans or the Democrats… BOTH!!!!

  • Mark D @ 81 – Ward Churchill was some small-time tenured professor who said the WTC victims were “little Eichmans” or something, and that because they were helping to globalize the world or something that they deserved what they got. Something like that, as well as a few other radical ideas. And of course, nobody but his students had ever heard of him until O’Reilly and his ilk turned him into the de facto representative for all liberals. O’Reilly just wouldn’t let the thing drop and even now his minions cite Churchill as the perfect example of all liberals.

    But the fact that you haven’t heard of him only means that you don’t debate wingnuts because I know of no liberals who defend the guy. He was just a strawman used to beat us all. And if you don’t denounce Ward Churchill with every breath, they will insist this proves you agree with the guy. Needless to say, once his name comes up, you know the debate’s over as the person is immune to reality.

  • Always Hopeful @ 85 – I’m in Austin and don’t feel lonely at all. In fact, I’m always worried that my neighbors hate me because I don’t have an anti-Bush bumpersticker on my car. So perhaps the problem isn’t that you’re in the wrong state, but just the wrong city. And for all the rest of you people, you’ve got both problems. But just don’t move here. We have too many people as it is.

  • The flag was not put up by some naive college student, this was done by Maria Isabel, a 50+ year old Cuban woman who has been volunteering for months on the Obama campaign. She has a long blog on the Obama website. Campaign volunteer leadership were STUPID to let this woman put it up, but not nearly as stupid as the woman herself who is into self promotion and attention and apparently doesn’t know rule one of campaigning is not to sign, say or show anything that is not part of your candidates policy.

  • Amazing! Dems worship JFK, and at the same time they fly flags with the image of Che.

    WHAT?!?!? How crazy is that?

    If alive today, JFK would distance himself as far as possible from the Democratic party.

    If Obama is elected, our country is going to be in for an unpleasant awakening.

    But it’s the fault of Democrats and Republicans alike. We’ve painted ourselves into a really bad corner, with apparently no way out. 🙁

    Hillary = Doom!
    Obama = Doom!
    McCain = Doom!

    Lord, please save us all!

  • Che Guevara was a medical professional who loved people and hated oppression. His disillusionment with regimes in South America forced him to lay down his medical kit and take up arms in the pursuit of freedom. That spirit will always be admired by thinking, feeling people. If Obama recognizes and embraces that spirt, my respect for him goes up another notch.

  • I think sodomy is disgusting, but I don’t necessarily support laws making it illegal. Tell me though, how are all the other things nutty? Let’s take a look at each:

    1) “The Party calls for the United States monetary system to be returned to the gold standard.” The Founders wanted our money to be only gold originally because it could not be abused. If you put $10,000 of your hard-earned savings in a savings account in 2000, you would have lost a third of your purchasing power on it by now because of inflation. Know why inflation occurs? Because the Federal Reserve continues to run the printing presses, devaluing every other dollar in circulation! This is inflation and it is an intentional policy by the Federal Reserve to attempt to pay for all kinds of government giveaways that it would otherwise have to tax for. The result is the robbery of the purchasing power of your savings. A gold standard would once again mean that the government cannot steal our savings through inflation.

    2) “We urge that the IRS be abolished and the Sixteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution be repealed.” Considering that our nation was fine for over a century without an income tax, wouldn’t it be nice to have that 1/3 to 50% of your income back? Income taxes are not necessary and the revenue generated does not pay for any government services, only the interest on the national debt. We do not need an income tax.

    3) ” The Party believes the minimum wage law should be repealed.” Minimum wage is essentially a price control on labor. Price controls never work and the minimum wage just contributes to higher unemployment and higher inflation (companies have to pay for higher wages, so they either fire workers and/or raise prices). If minimum wage is so great, why don’t we raise it to $20 or $30 an hour? Some jobs just are not worth it to pay $8/hour for, so employers simply choose to cut those jobs altogether.

    4) “The Party believes it is in the best interest of the citizens of the United States that we immediately rescind our membership in, as well as all financial and military contributions to, the United Nations.” Will somebody please tell me what good the UN has done for the United States? All they ever do is work against us and they are hopelessly corrupt (think Oil For Food scandal). Why do we continue to fund this useless organization exactly?

    5) “The Party urges Congress to support HJR 77, the Panama and America Security Act, which declare the Carter-Torrijos Treaty null and void. We support re-establishing United States control over the Canal in order to retain our military bases in Panama, to preserve our right to transit through the Canal, and to prevent the establishment of Chinese missile bases in Panama.” It was absolutely STUPID to essentially hand over the canal so that it could be controlled by China. It is strategic militarily and commercially. Why would any Democrat be opposed to retaining an asset that is so important instead of allowing it to be handed over to the Chinese?

  • Che Guevara was a medical professional who loved people and hated oppression. His disillusionment with regimes in South America forced him to lay down his medical kit and take up arms in the pursuit of freedom.

    –Oh…yes. He was such great guy. He ran a lovely hotel for his political opponents too. It was called something like La Cabana. Some people liked La Cabana so much, they stayed at La Cabana for the rest of their lives.

  • This story should be updated with Obama’s full statement:

    “This is a volunteer office that is not in any way controlled by the Obama campaign. We were disappointed to see this picture because it is both offensive to many Cuban-Americans — and Americans of all backgrounds — and because it does not reflect Senator Obama’s views. Barack Obama has been very clear in putting forward a Cuba policy that is based on one principle: freedom for the Cuban people.”

    http://factcheck.barackobama.com/factcheck/2008/02/12/on_reports_of_an_inappropriate.php

  • I am a liberal democrat, even a left-wing democrat. But I find it very very disturbing to find Che’s picture in that office. This is NOT a trivial matter. I would be also very disturbed, and most Americans would too, if he displayed a picture of Robert Mugabe, or Idi Amin, or Benito Mussolini, or anyone also that helped create a totalitarian regime and in doing so ordered the execution of hundreds, if not thousands, of people convicted by kangaroo courts and often without any trial whatsoever.

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